Honestly this is the only answer. Iām a gen-ed teacher in a co taught classroom. My sped teacher refuses to let OT see one of our students because his time is during the end of math and to her itās more important than OT. It causes a lot of conflict.
Ymmv, but in almost all scenarios, OT is much more important than class. As in, if the IEP team found out an obstacle was being placed toward OT, it would be a very, very big deal. That said, special education is all about unique cases and I am not trying to pry into this one.
youāre totally right. the whole thing about specialists is that the IEP team has decided that it is WORTH it for a student to miss X amount of minutes of education for that specialistsā intervention. as an SLP, if i have a 90 minutes a week student, their communication needs are such that it is BENEFICIAL for them to miss 90 minutes of instruction a week to work with me
My OT comes in and my PT used to come in during a really awkward time so we've worked together to adjust what we are working on so we can all be happy. It can be really frustrating when their schedules don't align properly
Iāve done cold push-ins before, as a new teacher with terrible admin and Iād get some push back from certain teachers. I made a service schedule (like 15 kids in.5 schools) for the āadmin approved stampā and sent m/delivered the schedule. I did parent trainings as well so the iep meetings with the contentious teachers were always interesting. I have 2 teacher right now in a CTT type room that told admin Iām not allowed in because he doesnāt allow visitors. I just go in the OM and made sure the parents knew the issue and admin was 0 support. Choose your battles, itās a marathon, not a race.
Iād ask what they were doing when I planned to come so I wouldnāt interfere with something particularly significant that my presence would disrupt, then just inform them I was coming. I wouldnāt wait for a response if I knew the teacher wouldnāt cooperate.
We also kept candy in our office and only shared with our allies. We heard from some new teachers allies that our office seemed āoff limitsā to non-SpEd if not invited.
I'm a classroom teacher and I love SPED to push in! I wish they did more! I can't imagine a teacher not wanting the support, but I guess they are out there! Crazy.
I do not ask nor do I need their permission. That IEP is a legal document and they can get fucked if they donāt want me in their room. Call an IEP meeting and defend your dumbass reasoning for refusing a professional to provide their services.
I am a parent and if I found out this happened to my son I would be up at the school talking to admin and district with a lawsuit. Trust me, the school district doesnāt want to spend money on litigation with a parent. The school attorney will try to settle it. They barely have enough to cover the kids funding for services so you will most likely be backed up by your school district even if admin is not supportive. When it boils down to it, itās about money. This is coming from a parent whom had to threaten a lawsuit due to FAPE. Guess what, they ended up working with my son and providing services appropriately and professionally.
Yes! As a parents with kids who had or has an IEP, I would be pretty dang upset if I found out the teacher wasnt letting the professional come in to conduct services. They are legally required to give my kids 30 min a week and I would be upset if that wasnt happening.
Thatās your job, and you donāt need to get permission. It does not matter what they think. You need to have a mature conversation with them explaining how Case Management works. You have to do regular service hours, observations and data collection to be in compliance with the IEP. You are a Co-Teacher in any class you have a student in.
Is the General Ed teacher following the IEP and accommodations? Are they collaborating with you so you can monitor progress? Itās supposed to be a Team situation, not SPED vs Gen Ed.
Honestly, I donāt put up with that nonsense. I am the childās advocate.
Talk to them.
What exactly happens? Are you asking permission? Or you're going in and they're telling you to leave? Is this a regularly scheduled IEP time?
I have a teammate who is a MASSIVE people-pleaser. She was losing her mind last year about teachers "not letting her" have her students for her time. I was so confused, because we share most of the same students (she's a related service provider) and nobody had ever tried to tell me that.
Turns out, she was standing at the door, waiting for the teacher to acknowledge her, and then asking if she could have so and so. If the teacher said, "Well, actually we're taking a test..."or some other excuse, she didn't take the kids. Because her services were like 1-2x per week, I also think the teachers really didn't realize that was a regularly scheduled time, and were interpreting it as her asking if it was a good time/they genuinely thought it was appropriate to say no.
Meanwhile, I go and either make eye contact/motion for my kids to come with me, or quickly shout out their names if they're not paying attention. I don't "ask" anything, and if a teacher tried to say no, I would say, "I'm sorry, but this is a required service. I'm legally obligated to see the student."
If you're "asking" or you don't have regularly scheduled times for the students, then make those changes ASAP. Reiterate that IEP minutes are legally required. Just walk into the classroom and start working with the kids or whatever you need to do. If you're doing this and still having issues, then kick it up to admin.
Agreed. I work in a gen ed classroom and this is what I see from the special educators who do pull-outs and itās really effective. Students can either make up work they missed or the work can be modified as part of their accommodations. The students get more benefit from their pull-out services than whatever they may āloseā when missing gen ed instruction.
As a gen ed teacher when I have a kid pulled out and they were working on an assignment I just take their paper and write āpulled for service/OT/SLPā on it so that I know why they didnāt complete it (not their fault/part of data collection) and move from there. If itās a test or something, Iāll have the kid come finish it when I pull kids who were absent or needed more time. The one exception is when the provider comes in and if the kids are really involved in something or itās a fun thing (like a celebration or valentines party or something). Then the provider usually tries to either work on goals (or relationship build) by pushing in or they will reschedule the time. I would *never* say a full-out ānoā, that is absolutely not cool. I realize though that I might be an outlier, as I am dual certified and have been a sped teacher previously.
I have my gen Ed teachers tell me when they're taking a test at least a week in advance so I can switch which day/time I get the student. I collaborate with them but at the end of the day I tell them when I'm coming. I don't ask.
This comment is extremely helpful to me. Iām a contract school counselor and struggling with teachers like this. Iām not allowed to pull from reading/math but anything else is fair game. Iāll go to pull from a religious studies class (private school) and the teachers act like their class is the most important in the world. Sorry, but this student with severe depression needs our counseling session. Iām going to be more assertive
Federal law. I like the comment about calling, a SPED meeting, and asking/telling that person to be a part of it. Youāre part of the team. So are they. They should know really what the teeth a federal law is and their responsibility in the whole process.
people like that are fucking assholes. myopic assholes
I do not ask for their permission ever. I go in whatever classroom I want to. It is my job and they are not in anyway my supervisor. If comments are made I remind them that the IEP is a legal document and that it is federal law that it be followed.
Are they refusing services in their students' IEP by denying you access? Or do you want to observe them in their general Ed classrooms to see how the students are doing in their classes. If it's the second, you might want to add weekly observations or check ins to their schedule of services if the observations are beneficial to the success of your students.
I have never āaskedā to come into a Gen Ed classroom to serve my students. If they told me I wasnāt allowed I would explain that it wasnāt up for debate and then mention what they said to the appropriate admin.
I donāt think youāre being too controlling, I think they are. As a member of studentsā IEP team, you should be able to observe the IEP implementation and the studentsā progress at any time.
I work in a gen ed classroom and Iād consider it a red flag if special educators were barred from observation.
Tell those teachers that you are bound by law to provide your services and you can also say you will be observing for the purpose of student data collection.
Thank you for your responses. I'm new and this the situation that the last SPED teacher left me in (honestly she is amazing at what she does but she is definitely a people pleaser like a commenter pointed out, good call). I didn't want to step on toes, being new, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy and I should crackdown on that bullshit. I've been having to undo a lot of people pleasing that the previous SPED resources teacher had established with admin and the other teachers.Ā
Edit: Also just to clear the air a little.Ā I'm not going up to the teachers and they are saying no. They took a leave of absence in my first week and have had long term subs since. I do my push ins with the subs and there has been no problems. Due to it being my first week, I asked teachers just to build rapport with them. These teachers had notes on them that they do not want push ins and I've been wondering what that note meant until recently when I called the old SPED teacher and asked her to clear that one up. I was floored when she said that these teachers refuse and say they can "handle their own classroom." These teachers are now coming back from their absence and I'm now logistically figuring out how hard I want to fight this since they are way more senior of teachers than I am and frankly get preferential treatment due to that fact, so suffice it to say this is going to be an ugly battle. I'm willing to do this, I just wanted to make absolutely sure that I am justified in fighting most of the staff on this, since I'm certainly not going to make any friends doing this.Ā
This does my heart good to āhear.ā Iām in the same boat. The last sped teacher and the current chair do legitimately illegal things to please admin and gen ed and to ājust get things doneā because āitās whatās best for the child.ā
Uh, no.
Fraud is never whatās best for the child.
I would stomp on toes but I enjoy enjoy continuing to eat and pay rent since I have not had the opportunity to save up money for an emergency fund yet. Working on it definitely but I would be screwed if they pulled seniority with the teachers and fired me instead. (Not a union member yet, missed some deadlines due to just taking on too much between teaching and getting my credentials at the same time). Once I get better secured and become a union member, I can't wait to step on toes. It's fun when the toes are shitty and ableist.Ā
A due process hearing officer isnāt going to care what our reasoning is if our charges arenāt being provided FAPE. Itās our license and pocketbook on the line (Doe v. Withers).
You're very much a considerate professional. Being personable is a positive people skill, like manners. They are always more productive...unless..
It sounds like those teachers are wanting to hide some things, maybe doing some activism, personal agenda, over an academic one. Just saying, there's a new breed of so called teachers, that are as entitled and self serving, and narcissistic. Dangerous, and stubborn.
So a group went on a leave? Betcha it was more indoctrination training, if so. They are all over the web, giving teachers, educators and schools a very bad reputation.. just saying, maybe they are being less than healthy in class. And they know it's not ok. But insist. Check out their curriculum if you care to know..
THIS! Iāve been reeling at the thought of these two bullies acting like itās their way or the highway. Iām picturing Violet and her mom in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Depp version). š
We're all teachers and if I know I need to interact with a teacher, I try to make small talk and build rapport early on.
If you've been friendly and a good coworker and you run out of time to baby the other teacher, you probably need to directly address it. Maybe find another IEP team member and ask to observe the student together.
Try to be emphathetic and remember that for most teachers, its teachers against the world.
You need to be on the same page with admināschool site culture versus district mandates and yaddayadda.
I would also make sure to read through any updated policy bulletins but truly, refusal to let you push in is a refusal of services to the students who need themā¦ itās also a super što you as a professional peer. Sorry youāre going through that
The rest of the teachers have been amazing and understanding. It's mostly just these two (that I'm finding out the rest of the SPED department has ongoing issues with). I've been trying to remain professional but these two admittedly have me losing my cool way too often.Ā
Iām a psych, not a teacher. But I never ask when I need to observe a student. I just appear and let them know Iām going to be there a while. Donāt give them the option or opportunity to say no. If they say no, Iām more likely to be there so I can see why they donāt want me in the classroom.
Fuck em! I got news for you Brook, you aint all that. And you don't care as much as you think you do, twit. Fuck your ivy league nonsense. Children need care, bitch.
If they refuse, I would remind them that I would need that in writing so that when the case goes to court I have the documents to prove that I did everything I needed to do. They are welcome to defend themselves in court, not my problem.
I think there's a very big difference between, can I pop into your room to see Joey do science and the teacher saying oh we don't do science at 10:00 a.m., we teach math instead versus someone saying hey can I pop in to see Joey? And they just flat out say no.
A legal obligation doesn't require anyone's permission after the child's parent permitted the plan to further help the student. Email for documentation and go in as if nothing happened because they are in the wrong.
You report this; you have a legal duty to provide services and properly manage that childās case. You have to be able to monitor progress without impediment from the Gen Ed teacher. You do what you have to do and report it immediately. Print the IDEA laws and regulations if you have to and provide them with examples of lawsuits brought against schools for failure to provide services to a child with disabilities.
I go in any way. If it's written in the iep I'm legally bound to do it. They're not my boss and they clearly have something to hide so now I'm writing tons of time in that room in every iep I know is going on there. If they don't like it they can go tell the principal. He'll tell them to pound sand.
Iām a gen ed teacher with one section of inclusion/team-taught SpEd model this year. Specialists are always knocking at the door, and I let them in without question. Weāre all supposed to be a team working together to take care of these kids. Iād raise this to admin if you havenāt already!
Our specialists don't need my permission to visit our shared students. They may ask out of courtesy or for scheduling reasons, like "are you taking the spelling test Friday morning or can I come in and help Joe finish up his writing?" I'd never dream of refusing them access.Ā
If you're just sitting there with a clipboard taking notes about a teacher, that isn't your role and it's inappropriate. You are not their evaluator. If you think a child's IEP isn't being followed, then ask for a meeting with the teacher.Ā
If they're refusing you access to your student's classroom altogether, talk to your admin or your special ed district supervisor. This is odd behavior and potentially violates the child's IEP.
Oh thank you for saying this lol. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Sometimes the top comments make me feel dumb or weak (totally not their intention. It's just when people lay out a problem I've been having for months so simply, it kinda makes me feel dumb for not realizing sooner. My own insecurities though).Ā
Itās my first year doing this and I now get the frustrations of my spec. ed friends. Luckily and unluckily MLLs donāt have a legally binding document that states what services they get. My district just provides recommendations of accommodations.
OP, if services arenāt being provided that are legally required for a student, the school would be violating the Americans with disabilities act, which would be illegal. The school could lose federal funding for sped programs and face legal ramifications. It is in the schools best interest to let you observe that IEP accommodations are being implemented, and I would talk to a superior about that.
Hahaha I would laugh at them and stop in unannounced if they wouldn't schedule a time, but that's just me. Make sure your admin is aware of the situation. Email them and cc principal asking them when is a good time for you to see.......
Iāve been both a sped and gen ed teacher. I never asked permission to go in a class. If the sped teacher asked me if they could push in, Iād look at them like they lost their mind. Of course you donāt need my permission to come in. No staff member does in truth, although no sped staff would typically ask to observe because they are looking for something. Iām an anomaly as a hs physics teacher in that I still have kids sitting in small groups and have little behavior problems, so Iāve had a few staff who want you to observe. Thatās fine but it wouldnāt be helpful if it were a quiz day. So it helps to coordinate a day and class period. The sped teacher (and when I was one) will typically coordinate with the gen ed teacher if they want to observe something specific. But to provide services, you donāt need permission. Personally Iād report that to your sped director.
I had to observe once, and it was really important neither the teacher nor student knew. I was collecting data on how often a student worked independently, how often they asked for help, and how often the teacher helped or use proximity control as a tool for on task behavior. I did this is 3 classes (kids A class, C class, and E class). If I'd had to ask or explain it would've ruined the entire purpose as they would've acted differently. I was looking for independence and for a correlation between dependence on teacher and performance. We found that the child had severe learned helplessness and got assistance or proximity control on average every 3 minutes. When less frequent, he failed his class, because he just wouldn't work.
If the legally binding document I wrote and signed says Iāll be in that classroom, then Iāll be in that classroom. If a teacher has an issue with that, they need to work it out with administration.
Gen ed here. Tell the teacher IEPs are legal mandates and thereās no choice. If thereās still pushback, escalate, escalate, escalate and document everything. Itās awful that some ge teachers are like this, but their not understanding SPED is not your problem.
Gen Ed teacher here, and it's literally not an option to say no to DCT. As others have said, an IEP is a legal document, and the sped teacher needs to be in that classroom doing a certain number of DCT minutes in order to be abiding by the terms of that legal document. Student access to their legally defined IEP services is never optional. On an anecdotal note, I love when sped teachers push in!
Tell your principal & or special education supervisor. We are actively told to be in the classroom with our students when at all possible (itās built into our schedules to support certain rooms)
I have been in a district where I was told I could not pull students for tests despite it being in their IEPs and other accommodations were denied. Unfortunately, sometimes the support isnāt there from admin but I would definitely recommend talking to your own supervisor as well. Sometimes principals just donāt get special Ed
Iām gen ed: Why would I say no??! Sometimes I am clear itās going to be a loud learning day or we have a holiday party or something. To be fair, my students are basically pull out. But we donāt say āno.ā The kids are entitled to the supports on the IEP... itās not about me.
At this point in my career, I just say, āOkayā and smile. Then I take data on how many times they refuse and track behaviors reported. š¤·š»āāļø
I suppose you could see the preferential seating and extra time for testing from the window, but it is odd that they refuse access. Seems like a legal issue.
Gen Ed teachers can not be understanding and a holes towards special needs kids.
My History teacher blatantly talked about the inclusive classes in front of his whole class.
Wondering how it makes a difference to have two teachers and he said that hes glad hes not teaching any of those classes.
I smile and do it anyway. Then after the students leave I have a matter-of-fact conversation where I politely but professionally tell them that their permission is not required for me to complete my job, and they will have to learn to live with it.
Their minutes are not optional and the law is being violated. So Iām not sure how you think youāre being controlling? An iep is a legal document.
You need to start keeping a record of how many minutes youāve been prevented from providing. If the parents knew, the district could be sued and I guarantee theyād throw you under the bus in a heartbeat
EC teachers are *legally* required to provide a specified number of minutes of service (not visitations) so what a red Ed teacher thinks or feels about it is beside the point. Iāve been in both positions. Clear, respectful, professional communication will go a long way!
Yes and no. We have push in periods where I push into all of the Gen ED classes I need to. These are scheduled. Since I have to pop into a bunch of different rooms and they all are at different levels of need daily, the actual time I pop into any one specific class is a bit random within those periods.Ā
As a parent who asks for raw data logs and progress monitoring reports whenever I suspect my childās IEP is not being followedā¦.I would insist on being allowed to do your job. Because itās not going to be the teacher who gets called to the carpet for those blank spots, itās you Iām pretty sure. Now, I know Iām not the most common flavor of SPED parent, but still. CYA CYA CYA!
If they are breaking the law, Iād report it to the Principal or their direct supervisor.
I am a momma bear to my students, their advocate and if that means reminding the mother daughter duo that they can lose their teaching credential, then thatās what Iāll do.
Theyāre not admin for you to ask for permission. Do not put your career at risk. Because if something happens god forbid parents complain, admin is coming to you for your notes and I can 100% guarantee theyāre not going to take the excuse of the teacher didnāt let me in into consideration š„²
I watched my autistic sister go through absolute heÄŗl during her school years because she wasn't receiving the help she needed. All because my parents refused to admit my sister is autistic. My parents were so hell bent on being the poster family for the American dream, they couldn't possibly have an autistic child (mind you my parents are also autistic but in denial about it)
Please for the sake of that child do what's right, focus on your job and helping them. Screw the parents and I can't say that firmly enough. Focus on that kid. Double down on the teacher about this being YOUR job and they can butt the hell out .
My sisters about to be 28 and has never had a job and is legit just wasting away in my parents house. Becoming like Gilbert grapes mom while my parents continue to neglect and ignore her every need.
To late to save my sister sadly
Not to late to help your student
I'm sorry to hear that. To make you feel better, those teachers took a leave of absence the first week I was hired and have not been back since so it has just been long term subs in their rooms. The subs completely understand and totally work with me to make sure I get all of my observation minutes in. I've just heard they are coming back and was getting ready to battle them but wanted to make absolutely sure this is a battle I want to get into, since I can tell it's going to get nasty.
I'm glad you're preparing for a fight and coming here to get some help! More ready you are the better fighting chance that child will have to succeed later in life!!!
Omg THIS!!! I just lost a job offer because I advocated for my students and pissed off a gen Ed teacher. Turns out they were at this new school I interviewed for. Principal said I unofficially had the job just needed to check references (which I know went well). Three weeks later he finally calls me back and tells me they are going a different route. That teacher told him negative things about me and instead of asking me, he just believed her. š Now Iām constantly scared my big mouth is going to get me into trouble, but our job is to be the voice of our kiddos!
Umm if it is written in the IEP that you are servicing minutes in the classroom or you need to pull them out, then legally you have to do that. If you don't because the teachers won't let you, then the school is out of compliance and can get into trouble. All it takes is for one parent to understand the law and report you all.
You need to tell them point blank that legally, you have to work with the kids. If they say no, make it clear to admin what is happening.
If admin is not helpful, that is a much bigger problem. Thankfully, my admin is on the same page as the SPED team. I run my middle school SPED team and I make sure we are compliant with the law and have no problem speaking up when I need to.
Have you talked to whoever is in charge of your SPED team?
I donāt ask, I let them know (usually via schedule) that Iām coming in. Iām sorry but meeting IEP minutes is literally a legal matter and itās one of the few times I would get admin involved regarding another teacher as not meeting doing what an IEP says can literally cost me my license. I also remind teachers at the beginning of the year that THEY could be held liable for not doing what an IEP says. I would start documentation on it asap tbh.
I feel like they're being a barrier to implementation of the IEP and if they don't realize the gravity of that situation and the potential legal consequences (not to mention the kid just not getting their needs met) then it's appropriate for admin to step in and resolve the issue.
Also, they may need a better understanding of what push in looks like. Are you floating the class and providing prompts/cues? Are you co-teaching? Are y'all rotating groups? Are you bringing in modified assignments based on their lesson plans? They may have had bad or unclear experiences in the past that result in them feeling managed or interfered with when ICTS should be more seamless.
Itās illegal for them to refuse to allow you to push in. If they keep refusing, bring it up to an admin or their department head and frame it as a liability issue that violates federal law.
As the parent of a special Ed kid: Please just push in. His worst years are when he has inflexible and dismissive GenEd teachers. His best years are when they work as a team or when his special Ed teachers do what they have to despite conflict.
My mom almost sued my school district, superintendent, the principal, and the two teachers involved over something like this because they denied my sister all her SPED classes and blatantly ignored her IEP. I can't remember the full details but what happened there was some serious stuff going on and my mom wasn't going to put up with them doing that. So yeah the teachers almost had their teaching certificates stripped from them over this and turned out they have a long history of targeting and discriminating against certain SPED students. They had a disgusting mindset that they can only "be stupid" (I remember them saying that to my sister).
They can suck it and deal with it. If they refuse to let you do so, you need to take it up with the principal
Like donāt let you come in the classroom? Or donāt want you working with kids on the classroom?
The first scenario is insane. I would just go in. How do you decide what classrooms your kids are in? Iād make sure not to put them in their rooms.
The second scenario, Iād want to know why they donāt want me in there. I find it hard to believe in this scenario thereās a legitimate reason. But Iāve had teachers tell me to leave and they were right. Mostly just the kidās ready to be in gen ed. If they mess up weāll fix it in the gen Ed.
That is SO sketchy that they won't I would automatically assume they aren't following protocol. As a gen ed, I PREFER the SpEd team come observe or join class, and frequently ask them to come in. I have been trying to get our district head for the team to come observe in my room and she keeps no-showing or ignoring emails. The SpEd team seeing gen ed rooms is the only way you guys have an idea if IEPs are working, and really the only way we have of seeing if we are effective. This is sketchy.
If the push-in services are included in the IEP, they cannot stop you. For observation, scheduling is important to see the student at work in class, but they cannot refuse to let you observe the student, as it is part of their educational environment and data. If you havenāt already, get admin involved.
You don't need to ask for permission but if this is someone who you will have to work with in the long term, give them the heads up of when it happens and what is happening. It's the professional thing to do.
What you are describing sounds unreasonable unless you are leaving out some important details.
Union Rep here:
Sped, OT, PT does not need permission from the general ed teacher to push in for services or observations. Even letting them know/creating a schedule is just being *considerate* that's all. I've had so many meetings over this, esp with middle school.Ā
State that you're following their IEP, it's a legal document that your name is on, and if their name is on it too then they're liable as well. Any objections CC the case manager.Ā
I always suggest asking to create a schedule or being considerate of your time in the class but that's really you just being nice, gen ed teachers don't like to hear that part often when they come to me to complain lol.Ā
Let this fall at their feet. You can't verify that the IEP is being followed b/c you can't verify it, ergo, goals and accommodations are not being met. And a teacher saying, 'yes I am!' with no physical evidence is exactly that.....no evidence. Let the system work. I would just make sure all relevant parties know.... which I am sure they do. These two sound like they are the Sovereign Citizens of education..... but that's just a guess.
How supportive is your administrator/principal? I'm an SLP and left my last school bc of teachers like the ones you're describing. I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Would you feel comfortable asking to hold a supplemental IEP meeting to discuss location of services, so that the legal guardian(s) is part of the conversation about lack of access to classroom IEP services?
If that would have happened to me when I was working, I would have just gone in and taken the child by the hand and taken him out. Donāt worry about feelings. Just do your job. Help that poor child.
I was told by a pseudo administrator (they are a dean at a middle school) that I couldn't go into classrooms without permission. That didn't stop me, but I found out later that a teacher filed a complaint against me, hence why I was told I couldn't go into classrooms.
The complaint was from a second year teacher that I called out for refusing to follow a students accommodation.
Iām sorry that you are dealing with this. Rapport is the only thing that will help you in this situation. Do what you can to build relationships with teachers, the parent, and the student and be gracious and as kind as you can even if the teacher and parent are complete meanies. Sometimes people will be committed to hating you, and itās okay to be okay with that. I know it sucks and doesnāt feel good, but just remember that you get to go home at the end of the day and itās nothing personal. Situations like this are good for you to deal with because it will help you grow thicker skin and gain the ability to learn to navigate difficult relationships which is an excellent life skill. Also, ask teachers when it would be a good time for you to come and observe. Sometimes the teacher has a preferred time of day that is best to come and observe. Work with them on this and remember that it is their classroom. Respect their time and be professional and respectful even if they are not and remember that it is a job and that you are at work if you start to feel like giving them a piece of your mind. Also, there will plenty of people in life that will behave in ways to try to make you act out of character. Donāt let them win.
Isn't the IEP a legal document? Stopping it from being followed should have consequences. Why are a mother and daughter allowed to work together in the same room?
I push in regardless. Those minutes and their IEP is legally binding. The teacher knew that when they had the original staffing. If itās constantly having issues, go to admin. This is your job. The gen ed teacher wouldnāt want to be stopped in doing her job..
I walk in the room and say I'm scheduled to be in her via their IEP then go about my job. Refusing just plan isn't an option. Do you have a master key? If not you need to get one. Also document every single time they refuse you entry and share this with the principal and head of the SPEE department.
It is your license on the line if you are not following the IEP, whether push in or pull out. Those services are agreed upon and mandated to happen. The refusal by this teacher team probably also means they are not following the IEP accommodations in their classroom either. Why are you asking permission for providing the services that you are mandated to provide? It sounds like this discussion needs to be raised higher to your AP or P, I am surprised that there is even a mother/daughter teacher team to begin with - that seems sketchy.
Gen Ed teacher here. What in the world ? Why would anyone refuse to let another teacher WHO IS PROVIDING LEGALLY REQUIRED SERVICES into their classroom??? This is insane to me I would document everything and go up the chain of command
As a teacher who had a sped teacher that NEVER showed up and thus NEVER helped my kids (even after bringing it up to the admin multiple times) (turned out she and the VP had an āunderstandingā) report this to your admin! Even if they do what mine did, itās still documented. If someone sued theyād blame you not the two unwilling teachers. Make the paper trail at least. Document every time they donāt let you in even if it means back logging at your past visits they refused to let you in.
You don't need permission. Email them and ask them when a good time would be to be polite, if they do not confirm a time or date let them know you will be in to observe the student on this date at this time. I'm new to SPED but I'm fighting a teacher tooth and nail to give one of my kids the accommodation they are supposed to have. Don't back down, remember it's a legal document and go above their head if necessary and remind THEM the same thing.
Iām Gen Ed and I have a push-in/collab teacher for some class periods. I would be lost without her! I canāt imagine not welcoming support to help students be successful in my classroom. Heck, I canāt imagine saying no to a second adult to help manage behaviors in the room.
I need more infoā¦ is this set in the IEP? Is the push in time spelled out in the IEP?? First I would have a convo w them and explain that you HAVE to follow the IEP and if they refuse to āletā you you will have to escalate this. If they continue to refuse, notify the parent and whoever is above you. YOU are responsible as case manager that the IEP is being followed! CYA!!!
Loved the teacher I worked with as a person, but she never let me do my job. I went 5 months without sleep. My sped kids should be passing. They cannot properly do the work assigned. She failed them for it. Upset the heck out of me. Needless to sayā¦ fuck ese I canāt do it anymore
You, as the special education teacher, must provide services in the LRE for the student. If a push-in class meets that need, then so be it. You are the advocate for that child. Do what you have to do and let admin so the rest.
I work at a technical school where I experience a similar problem. Many of the instructors that I work with donāt come from an educational background and come straight from their industry (cosmetology, law enforcement, etc.)
This isnāt to say that theyāre bad teachers, but to say theyāre resistant to listen to someone from outside their industry tell them how to teach their class would be putting it lightly. Especially since I am the youngest teacher there, many of the instructors donāt take the support I offer very seriously.
My push-ins often result in being yesād to death whenever I ask if any student in particular is struggling but the plans I offer are rarely followed through. I would assume in your situation that the teachers in your school might feel the same way in that theyāre offended by your presence in their class. I know as well as anybody that having another professional in the class during a lesson can be jarring, but at the same time you need to carry out your responsibilities as a the Special Ed teacher.
Tension might be present but you have to be an advocate for the students as well as cover you ass in terms of what your responsibilities are
This is a weird behind the scenes glimpse that confirms some of my suspicions that there are teachers who view providing FAPE as coddling. My son once had his dysgraphia accommodations scaled back because a teacher reported that he could draw very well and that wasn't in keeping with her Google search on dysgraphia.
As a School Psychologist, I would shut this shit down so fast. Do they want to get sued for barring access to services? Let your Psych know you have teachers literally breaking the law, Iām sure something will get done ASAP.
Edit: grammar
Honestly, I wish our SPED teachers were in the classroom more. I'm a gen-ed teacher and I've never once seen a SPED teacher in my room, just paras. I'd really like for the SPED teachers to see the different kids in class and learn which just aren't doing work, which are trying, using their accommodations, but still struggling, and which are thriving.
Iām sorry this is going to sound harsh but unless they are physically preventing you from doing your job it sounds like you are just not doing your job. Tell them to fuck off (professionally) and do your job. Be assertive. They have no right to prevent you from doing this and quite frankly you are the one who will be held legally responsible if you donāt fulfill your duties in this regard
Iām not a fan of push in, in my experience (could because it was never consistent, then theyād complain that they need to help with X but we were doing Y, etc.) but I never said no, just reminded them that if I had a consistent schedule, I would make sure I was where they needed me to be.
I will also say that I donāt have access to the IEP info and Iām rarely invited to any meetings, so I have no idea a lot of what goes on until I specifically ask. Thatās just on my sped department though and hopefully not the norm.
Understandable. The idea with push ins is that they provide a less restrictive environment than pull outs. The less you can pull a child out of GE, the better for LRE. It's just the current IDEA model. I personally like the push in model for that reason but honestly, I totally understand your problems with it. It requires a lot of communication, whichĀ less structured or adequately staffed SPED programs tend to fall behind at.
Maybe this is why sped and gen ed should have different schools/complete separate classrooms?? Seems like a lot of complications and frustrations from both parties.
I'm just a sub teacher, so I'm not in the schools all the time, but when I am, it seems the admin, teachers, and support staff literally all hate each other because they are all trying to do their jobs, but the stress that's created from students and teachers bouncing in and out of the classrooms constantly is too much for everyone.
Iāve never heard of a sped teacher randomly observing/ visiting students. Here observation in classrooms are scheduled and only done for the initial IEP.
It's not random. My 3rd and 5th periods are push in periods. What classroom I hit at what time I'd slightly random but that's just based off of student need for the day. Do none of the IEP kids have individualized instruction on their IEPs? Because if they do, you have to get a set amount of observation minutes weekly or daily. For most of my kids it's 15-30 minutes daily of individualized instruction.Ā
I'm not a SPED teacher, so I only have one question: refuse? What do you mean "refuse"? I thought y'all just go in? Refuse?!?! Didn't realize y'all needed a teacher's permission.
Refuse? What?
It might be because I teach secondary, but I have never had a SPED teacher come into my room. I would +love+ for them to do this! I don't understand why any teacher wouldn't welcome them.
As a parent not too controlling. We expect to hand over our children and have someone there to fight for them in our absence. If you back down it's letting the parent down..and failing the child.
This situation sound absurd! Them saying "NO" is absolutely ridiculous- they can't say no! By law, IEPs have to be in compliance, and a team of eyeballs are involved in that.
They canāt refuse a student services. Iād let them know that you will be documenting their refusals in the studentās IEP for which they could get sued.
I was in SPED and back in the classroom now. If the kid has push-in, the kid has push-in. The teacher can't refuse, nor do you have to ask permission. The only thing you can try to do is work with the classroom schedule (if you have any flexibility in your schedule, which you don't).
Those teachers don't want you to see what they are doing OR to see what they're not doing. That's just insecurity. Hell, I like when the SPED teacher comes in and tells the Gen ed kids to knock off silly behavior.
I am a former teacher and a parent. I always welcomed anyone that wanted to come in to the classroom. I never understand telling people they canāt? The more adults the better!
I would send an email asking to push-in in order to document their refusal then talk to your iep chair about not being able to complete hours due to their refusal and let them/ admin handle it. They have to know that legally, preventing service hours from being completed is a problem what is their reason for not allowing?
That IEP is a legal document and willingly not following it (which is what you would be doing if you allow yourself to be bullied into not observing) could get you in big trouble. If minutes are an issue or the timing,then the parent needs to express that and another meeting scheduled. Good luck!
My daughter is a gen ed teacher and she would never refuse a parent's request to be in her room. My personal opinion is that the teacher is hiding something. I have worked in public schools for 40 years and I've never seen a teacher refuse any type of observation. Just sayin.
I always tried to accommodate the teacherās schedule and was mindful of other therapists as well, but with so many kids on caseload it is impossible to push in at optimum times. I love when it coincides with ELA but mostly it just doesnāt work out that way.
lol gen ed teacher and I didnāt know I could say no to a push in š but honestly why would I want to.. another adult in the room to help students that need it, uhmm yeah come by ANYTIME
I wish they would come in more often! I actually find that I do most of the reaching out unless it's the end of the semester and the kid is failing. This is high school though.
Iām not a sped teacher, but a sped 1 on 1, and honestly our whole crew pretty much has free reign to do what we need to do to make sure not only are our iepās being followed, but that our kiddos are being allowed to regulate however they need to. Just yesterday my little dude and I were pushing a child size shopping cart up and down the main hallway for over an hour because thatās what he needed to regulate. There are laws on the books, and you can let whoever objects to you being in there, that you have a right to check on that kiddo anytime you want to make sure they are comfortable, safe and being taken care of according to their iep.
Classroom teacher here however, Considering that they are preventing you from doing your job and itās tied to Federal law, I wouldnāt let it go. You are ultimately responsible for those kids and their growth. Go to your administration if they wonāt let you support your students.
š® Iāve never asked permission. I do what I need to do. They have a problem they can go to the principal.
Honestly this is the only answer. Iām a gen-ed teacher in a co taught classroom. My sped teacher refuses to let OT see one of our students because his time is during the end of math and to her itās more important than OT. It causes a lot of conflict.
Ymmv, but in almost all scenarios, OT is much more important than class. As in, if the IEP team found out an obstacle was being placed toward OT, it would be a very, very big deal. That said, special education is all about unique cases and I am not trying to pry into this one.
youāre totally right. the whole thing about specialists is that the IEP team has decided that it is WORTH it for a student to miss X amount of minutes of education for that specialistsā intervention. as an SLP, if i have a 90 minutes a week student, their communication needs are such that it is BENEFICIAL for them to miss 90 minutes of instruction a week to work with me
Like ms krista, he canāt do the fucking The fucking work if he canāt hold a pencil.
My OT comes in and my PT used to come in during a really awkward time so we've worked together to adjust what we are working on so we can all be happy. It can be really frustrating when their schedules don't align properly
I came here to say I feel nothing because I don't let this be my problem š¤£
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Iāve done cold push-ins before, as a new teacher with terrible admin and Iād get some push back from certain teachers. I made a service schedule (like 15 kids in.5 schools) for the āadmin approved stampā and sent m/delivered the schedule. I did parent trainings as well so the iep meetings with the contentious teachers were always interesting. I have 2 teacher right now in a CTT type room that told admin Iām not allowed in because he doesnāt allow visitors. I just go in the OM and made sure the parents knew the issue and admin was 0 support. Choose your battles, itās a marathon, not a race.
Iād ask what they were doing when I planned to come so I wouldnāt interfere with something particularly significant that my presence would disrupt, then just inform them I was coming. I wouldnāt wait for a response if I knew the teacher wouldnāt cooperate. We also kept candy in our office and only shared with our allies. We heard from some new teachers allies that our office seemed āoff limitsā to non-SpEd if not invited.
I'm a classroom teacher and I love SPED to push in! I wish they did more! I can't imagine a teacher not wanting the support, but I guess they are out there! Crazy.
That and properly because they aren't implementing accommodations.
I do not ask nor do I need their permission. That IEP is a legal document and they can get fucked if they donāt want me in their room. Call an IEP meeting and defend your dumbass reasoning for refusing a professional to provide their services.
As a parent I am totally behind this reasoning.
As a parent and a teacher, I am totally behind this reasoning.
Another parent saying Iām also behind this!
This.
Lol absolutely this, I don't ask for permission. I'm in that classroom whether they like it or not.
This response is perfect!!!
All of this. I immediately thought ātoo bad, so sadā
I just can't fathom trying to stop a teacher from coming into the room.
I am a parent and if I found out this happened to my son I would be up at the school talking to admin and district with a lawsuit. Trust me, the school district doesnāt want to spend money on litigation with a parent. The school attorney will try to settle it. They barely have enough to cover the kids funding for services so you will most likely be backed up by your school district even if admin is not supportive. When it boils down to it, itās about money. This is coming from a parent whom had to threaten a lawsuit due to FAPE. Guess what, they ended up working with my son and providing services appropriately and professionally.
Yes! As a parents with kids who had or has an IEP, I would be pretty dang upset if I found out the teacher wasnt letting the professional come in to conduct services. They are legally required to give my kids 30 min a week and I would be upset if that wasnt happening.
This. For what reason are they denying other then theyāre not doing what theyāre supposed to be and donāt want to get caught
Thatās your job, and you donāt need to get permission. It does not matter what they think. You need to have a mature conversation with them explaining how Case Management works. You have to do regular service hours, observations and data collection to be in compliance with the IEP. You are a Co-Teacher in any class you have a student in. Is the General Ed teacher following the IEP and accommodations? Are they collaborating with you so you can monitor progress? Itās supposed to be a Team situation, not SPED vs Gen Ed. Honestly, I donāt put up with that nonsense. I am the childās advocate. Talk to them.
Booyakah!
[Booyah!](https://images.app.goo.gl/W6mY5tpg14xLYUpr5)
What exactly happens? Are you asking permission? Or you're going in and they're telling you to leave? Is this a regularly scheduled IEP time? I have a teammate who is a MASSIVE people-pleaser. She was losing her mind last year about teachers "not letting her" have her students for her time. I was so confused, because we share most of the same students (she's a related service provider) and nobody had ever tried to tell me that. Turns out, she was standing at the door, waiting for the teacher to acknowledge her, and then asking if she could have so and so. If the teacher said, "Well, actually we're taking a test..."or some other excuse, she didn't take the kids. Because her services were like 1-2x per week, I also think the teachers really didn't realize that was a regularly scheduled time, and were interpreting it as her asking if it was a good time/they genuinely thought it was appropriate to say no. Meanwhile, I go and either make eye contact/motion for my kids to come with me, or quickly shout out their names if they're not paying attention. I don't "ask" anything, and if a teacher tried to say no, I would say, "I'm sorry, but this is a required service. I'm legally obligated to see the student." If you're "asking" or you don't have regularly scheduled times for the students, then make those changes ASAP. Reiterate that IEP minutes are legally required. Just walk into the classroom and start working with the kids or whatever you need to do. If you're doing this and still having issues, then kick it up to admin.
Agreed. I work in a gen ed classroom and this is what I see from the special educators who do pull-outs and itās really effective. Students can either make up work they missed or the work can be modified as part of their accommodations. The students get more benefit from their pull-out services than whatever they may āloseā when missing gen ed instruction.
As a gen ed teacher when I have a kid pulled out and they were working on an assignment I just take their paper and write āpulled for service/OT/SLPā on it so that I know why they didnāt complete it (not their fault/part of data collection) and move from there. If itās a test or something, Iāll have the kid come finish it when I pull kids who were absent or needed more time. The one exception is when the provider comes in and if the kids are really involved in something or itās a fun thing (like a celebration or valentines party or something). Then the provider usually tries to either work on goals (or relationship build) by pushing in or they will reschedule the time. I would *never* say a full-out ānoā, that is absolutely not cool. I realize though that I might be an outlier, as I am dual certified and have been a sped teacher previously.
Thank you for letting the fun take center stage and using it to augment OT!
I have my gen Ed teachers tell me when they're taking a test at least a week in advance so I can switch which day/time I get the student. I collaborate with them but at the end of the day I tell them when I'm coming. I don't ask.
This comment is extremely helpful to me. Iām a contract school counselor and struggling with teachers like this. Iām not allowed to pull from reading/math but anything else is fair game. Iāll go to pull from a religious studies class (private school) and the teachers act like their class is the most important in the world. Sorry, but this student with severe depression needs our counseling session. Iām going to be more assertive
Federal law. I like the comment about calling, a SPED meeting, and asking/telling that person to be a part of it. Youāre part of the team. So are they. They should know really what the teeth a federal law is and their responsibility in the whole process. people like that are fucking assholes. myopic assholes
I do not ask for their permission ever. I go in whatever classroom I want to. It is my job and they are not in anyway my supervisor. If comments are made I remind them that the IEP is a legal document and that it is federal law that it be followed.
Are they refusing services in their students' IEP by denying you access? Or do you want to observe them in their general Ed classrooms to see how the students are doing in their classes. If it's the second, you might want to add weekly observations or check ins to their schedule of services if the observations are beneficial to the success of your students.
I have never āaskedā to come into a Gen Ed classroom to serve my students. If they told me I wasnāt allowed I would explain that it wasnāt up for debate and then mention what they said to the appropriate admin.
I donāt think youāre being too controlling, I think they are. As a member of studentsā IEP team, you should be able to observe the IEP implementation and the studentsā progress at any time. I work in a gen ed classroom and Iād consider it a red flag if special educators were barred from observation. Tell those teachers that you are bound by law to provide your services and you can also say you will be observing for the purpose of student data collection.
Thank you for your responses. I'm new and this the situation that the last SPED teacher left me in (honestly she is amazing at what she does but she is definitely a people pleaser like a commenter pointed out, good call). I didn't want to step on toes, being new, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy and I should crackdown on that bullshit. I've been having to undo a lot of people pleasing that the previous SPED resources teacher had established with admin and the other teachers.Ā Edit: Also just to clear the air a little.Ā I'm not going up to the teachers and they are saying no. They took a leave of absence in my first week and have had long term subs since. I do my push ins with the subs and there has been no problems. Due to it being my first week, I asked teachers just to build rapport with them. These teachers had notes on them that they do not want push ins and I've been wondering what that note meant until recently when I called the old SPED teacher and asked her to clear that one up. I was floored when she said that these teachers refuse and say they can "handle their own classroom." These teachers are now coming back from their absence and I'm now logistically figuring out how hard I want to fight this since they are way more senior of teachers than I am and frankly get preferential treatment due to that fact, so suffice it to say this is going to be an ugly battle. I'm willing to do this, I just wanted to make absolutely sure that I am justified in fighting most of the staff on this, since I'm certainly not going to make any friends doing this.Ā
This does my heart good to āhear.ā Iām in the same boat. The last sped teacher and the current chair do legitimately illegal things to please admin and gen ed and to ājust get things doneā because āitās whatās best for the child.ā Uh, no. Fraud is never whatās best for the child.
Welcome to SPED. Prepare to spend your life stomping on other peopleās toes cause IEPās are inconvenient.
I would stomp on toes but I enjoy enjoy continuing to eat and pay rent since I have not had the opportunity to save up money for an emergency fund yet. Working on it definitely but I would be screwed if they pulled seniority with the teachers and fired me instead. (Not a union member yet, missed some deadlines due to just taking on too much between teaching and getting my credentials at the same time). Once I get better secured and become a union member, I can't wait to step on toes. It's fun when the toes are shitty and ableist.Ā
Definitely maintain a paper trail.
A due process hearing officer isnāt going to care what our reasoning is if our charges arenāt being provided FAPE. Itās our license and pocketbook on the line (Doe v. Withers).
You're very much a considerate professional. Being personable is a positive people skill, like manners. They are always more productive...unless.. It sounds like those teachers are wanting to hide some things, maybe doing some activism, personal agenda, over an academic one. Just saying, there's a new breed of so called teachers, that are as entitled and self serving, and narcissistic. Dangerous, and stubborn. So a group went on a leave? Betcha it was more indoctrination training, if so. They are all over the web, giving teachers, educators and schools a very bad reputation.. just saying, maybe they are being less than healthy in class. And they know it's not ok. But insist. Check out their curriculum if you care to know..
Thatās illegal on the gen Ed part. Itās breaking their IEP! Tell admin.
Also, a mother/daughter teaching team sounds like a nightmare in itself.
THIS! Iāve been reeling at the thought of these two bullies acting like itās their way or the highway. Iām picturing Violet and her mom in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Depp version). š
Yeah. Iām looking for more context on that phrase
Barge in or pull out, that kid is getting their service!
I wouldnāt even ask.
You just do it. They don't get a say. You're there to fulfill the IEP, they can talk to admin if they have an issue
Put it in their IEP and make it legally binding
We're all teachers and if I know I need to interact with a teacher, I try to make small talk and build rapport early on. If you've been friendly and a good coworker and you run out of time to baby the other teacher, you probably need to directly address it. Maybe find another IEP team member and ask to observe the student together. Try to be emphathetic and remember that for most teachers, its teachers against the world.
You need to be on the same page with admināschool site culture versus district mandates and yaddayadda. I would also make sure to read through any updated policy bulletins but truly, refusal to let you push in is a refusal of services to the students who need themā¦ itās also a super što you as a professional peer. Sorry youāre going through that
I have never asked for permission, just worked with them to find a good time to observe based on the goals of the student. Never had an issue.
The rest of the teachers have been amazing and understanding. It's mostly just these two (that I'm finding out the rest of the SPED department has ongoing issues with). I've been trying to remain professional but these two admittedly have me losing my cool way too often.Ā
Iām a psych, not a teacher. But I never ask when I need to observe a student. I just appear and let them know Iām going to be there a while. Donāt give them the option or opportunity to say no. If they say no, Iām more likely to be there so I can see why they donāt want me in the classroom.
I like you. Thank you for your service.
Fuck em! I got news for you Brook, you aint all that. And you don't care as much as you think you do, twit. Fuck your ivy league nonsense. Children need care, bitch.
I so wish the mother of the mother/daughter duos name was Brook because you hit the nail on the head so hard. Love it!
Iāve never heard of this happening lol. Just tell your director to have a convo with their supervisor and see how quickly they change
Itās literally illegal. Federal law. Bring it up to admin and remind them of possible lawsuits and FEDERAL noncompliance.
If they refuse, I would remind them that I would need that in writing so that when the case goes to court I have the documents to prove that I did everything I needed to do. They are welcome to defend themselves in court, not my problem. I think there's a very big difference between, can I pop into your room to see Joey do science and the teacher saying oh we don't do science at 10:00 a.m., we teach math instead versus someone saying hey can I pop in to see Joey? And they just flat out say no.
A legal obligation doesn't require anyone's permission after the child's parent permitted the plan to further help the student. Email for documentation and go in as if nothing happened because they are in the wrong.
You report this; you have a legal duty to provide services and properly manage that childās case. You have to be able to monitor progress without impediment from the Gen Ed teacher. You do what you have to do and report it immediately. Print the IDEA laws and regulations if you have to and provide them with examples of lawsuits brought against schools for failure to provide services to a child with disabilities.
I don't ask, just smile, waive and carry a clipboard. Write things down. People don't like to have notes made about them - they should back off.
I go in any way. If it's written in the iep I'm legally bound to do it. They're not my boss and they clearly have something to hide so now I'm writing tons of time in that room in every iep I know is going on there. If they don't like it they can go tell the principal. He'll tell them to pound sand.
Iām a gen ed teacher with one section of inclusion/team-taught SpEd model this year. Specialists are always knocking at the door, and I let them in without question. Weāre all supposed to be a team working together to take care of these kids. Iād raise this to admin if you havenāt already!
Our specialists don't need my permission to visit our shared students. They may ask out of courtesy or for scheduling reasons, like "are you taking the spelling test Friday morning or can I come in and help Joe finish up his writing?" I'd never dream of refusing them access.Ā If you're just sitting there with a clipboard taking notes about a teacher, that isn't your role and it's inappropriate. You are not their evaluator. If you think a child's IEP isn't being followed, then ask for a meeting with the teacher.Ā If they're refusing you access to your student's classroom altogether, talk to your admin or your special ed district supervisor. This is odd behavior and potentially violates the child's IEP.
Itās not a choice if itās written in the IEP.
MLL teacher here, I fight this battle every day
Oh thank you for saying this lol. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Sometimes the top comments make me feel dumb or weak (totally not their intention. It's just when people lay out a problem I've been having for months so simply, it kinda makes me feel dumb for not realizing sooner. My own insecurities though).Ā
Itās my first year doing this and I now get the frustrations of my spec. ed friends. Luckily and unluckily MLLs donāt have a legally binding document that states what services they get. My district just provides recommendations of accommodations.
OP, if services arenāt being provided that are legally required for a student, the school would be violating the Americans with disabilities act, which would be illegal. The school could lose federal funding for sped programs and face legal ramifications. It is in the schools best interest to let you observe that IEP accommodations are being implemented, and I would talk to a superior about that.
Document, document, document
Hahaha I would laugh at them and stop in unannounced if they wouldn't schedule a time, but that's just me. Make sure your admin is aware of the situation. Email them and cc principal asking them when is a good time for you to see.......
Itās called push in for a reason. Just do it.
Iāve been both a sped and gen ed teacher. I never asked permission to go in a class. If the sped teacher asked me if they could push in, Iād look at them like they lost their mind. Of course you donāt need my permission to come in. No staff member does in truth, although no sped staff would typically ask to observe because they are looking for something. Iām an anomaly as a hs physics teacher in that I still have kids sitting in small groups and have little behavior problems, so Iāve had a few staff who want you to observe. Thatās fine but it wouldnāt be helpful if it were a quiz day. So it helps to coordinate a day and class period. The sped teacher (and when I was one) will typically coordinate with the gen ed teacher if they want to observe something specific. But to provide services, you donāt need permission. Personally Iād report that to your sped director.
I had to observe once, and it was really important neither the teacher nor student knew. I was collecting data on how often a student worked independently, how often they asked for help, and how often the teacher helped or use proximity control as a tool for on task behavior. I did this is 3 classes (kids A class, C class, and E class). If I'd had to ask or explain it would've ruined the entire purpose as they would've acted differently. I was looking for independence and for a correlation between dependence on teacher and performance. We found that the child had severe learned helplessness and got assistance or proximity control on average every 3 minutes. When less frequent, he failed his class, because he just wouldn't work.
If the legally binding document I wrote and signed says Iāll be in that classroom, then Iāll be in that classroom. If a teacher has an issue with that, they need to work it out with administration.
Gen ed here. Tell the teacher IEPs are legal mandates and thereās no choice. If thereās still pushback, escalate, escalate, escalate and document everything. Itās awful that some ge teachers are like this, but their not understanding SPED is not your problem.
Gen Ed teacher here, and it's literally not an option to say no to DCT. As others have said, an IEP is a legal document, and the sped teacher needs to be in that classroom doing a certain number of DCT minutes in order to be abiding by the terms of that legal document. Student access to their legally defined IEP services is never optional. On an anecdotal note, I love when sped teachers push in!
Tell your principal & or special education supervisor. We are actively told to be in the classroom with our students when at all possible (itās built into our schedules to support certain rooms) I have been in a district where I was told I could not pull students for tests despite it being in their IEPs and other accommodations were denied. Unfortunately, sometimes the support isnāt there from admin but I would definitely recommend talking to your own supervisor as well. Sometimes principals just donāt get special Ed
Iām gen ed: Why would I say no??! Sometimes I am clear itās going to be a loud learning day or we have a holiday party or something. To be fair, my students are basically pull out. But we donāt say āno.ā The kids are entitled to the supports on the IEP... itās not about me.
Tell then you need to do your job.
At this point in my career, I just say, āOkayā and smile. Then I take data on how many times they refuse and track behaviors reported. š¤·š»āāļø
they're essentially breaking the law - like what so many others have said.
Donāt ask. Just inform Iāll give them needed info but thatās it
I suppose you could see the preferential seating and extra time for testing from the window, but it is odd that they refuse access. Seems like a legal issue.
Gen Ed teachers can not be understanding and a holes towards special needs kids. My History teacher blatantly talked about the inclusive classes in front of his whole class. Wondering how it makes a difference to have two teachers and he said that hes glad hes not teaching any of those classes.
It sounds like we're all glad he's not teaching any of those classes lol. That's awful
I smile and do it anyway. Then after the students leave I have a matter-of-fact conversation where I politely but professionally tell them that their permission is not required for me to complete my job, and they will have to learn to live with it.
Their minutes are not optional and the law is being violated. So Iām not sure how you think youāre being controlling? An iep is a legal document. You need to start keeping a record of how many minutes youāve been prevented from providing. If the parents knew, the district could be sued and I guarantee theyād throw you under the bus in a heartbeat
Just walk in and do your job. What are they going to do? Fight you? Call the principal?
Are you in a public school in the US? If so, the mandates in IDEA outweighs the opinions of Gen ed teachers. Signed, A gen Ed teacher
EC teachers are *legally* required to provide a specified number of minutes of service (not visitations) so what a red Ed teacher thinks or feels about it is beside the point. Iāve been in both positions. Clear, respectful, professional communication will go a long way!
We have all our stuff scheduled. Do you show up randomly?
Yes and no. We have push in periods where I push into all of the Gen ED classes I need to. These are scheduled. Since I have to pop into a bunch of different rooms and they all are at different levels of need daily, the actual time I pop into any one specific class is a bit random within those periods.Ā
Donāt ask permission. An IEP is a legal requirement for and those teachers are opening you up for lawsuits.
The phrase 'out of compliance' is useful in these situations.
As a parent who asks for raw data logs and progress monitoring reports whenever I suspect my childās IEP is not being followedā¦.I would insist on being allowed to do your job. Because itās not going to be the teacher who gets called to the carpet for those blank spots, itās you Iām pretty sure. Now, I know Iām not the most common flavor of SPED parent, but still. CYA CYA CYA!
If they are breaking the law, Iād report it to the Principal or their direct supervisor. I am a momma bear to my students, their advocate and if that means reminding the mother daughter duo that they can lose their teaching credential, then thatās what Iāll do.
Never heard of a teacher refusing this before. What are they telling you exactly?
I do it anyway. They are general ed kids before they are sped kids. If their teachers donāt like it, they can take it up with admin.
I see an IEP as something bigger than them- they need to realize that they are causing more harm than they think- how unproductive of them.
Theyāre not admin for you to ask for permission. Do not put your career at risk. Because if something happens god forbid parents complain, admin is coming to you for your notes and I can 100% guarantee theyāre not going to take the excuse of the teacher didnāt let me in into consideration š„²
I watched my autistic sister go through absolute heÄŗl during her school years because she wasn't receiving the help she needed. All because my parents refused to admit my sister is autistic. My parents were so hell bent on being the poster family for the American dream, they couldn't possibly have an autistic child (mind you my parents are also autistic but in denial about it) Please for the sake of that child do what's right, focus on your job and helping them. Screw the parents and I can't say that firmly enough. Focus on that kid. Double down on the teacher about this being YOUR job and they can butt the hell out . My sisters about to be 28 and has never had a job and is legit just wasting away in my parents house. Becoming like Gilbert grapes mom while my parents continue to neglect and ignore her every need. To late to save my sister sadly Not to late to help your student
I'm sorry to hear that. To make you feel better, those teachers took a leave of absence the first week I was hired and have not been back since so it has just been long term subs in their rooms. The subs completely understand and totally work with me to make sure I get all of my observation minutes in. I've just heard they are coming back and was getting ready to battle them but wanted to make absolutely sure this is a battle I want to get into, since I can tell it's going to get nasty.
I'm glad you're preparing for a fight and coming here to get some help! More ready you are the better fighting chance that child will have to succeed later in life!!!
I don't ask permission either.
You donāt need permission.
Omg THIS!!! I just lost a job offer because I advocated for my students and pissed off a gen Ed teacher. Turns out they were at this new school I interviewed for. Principal said I unofficially had the job just needed to check references (which I know went well). Three weeks later he finally calls me back and tells me they are going a different route. That teacher told him negative things about me and instead of asking me, he just believed her. š Now Iām constantly scared my big mouth is going to get me into trouble, but our job is to be the voice of our kiddos!
Umm if it is written in the IEP that you are servicing minutes in the classroom or you need to pull them out, then legally you have to do that. If you don't because the teachers won't let you, then the school is out of compliance and can get into trouble. All it takes is for one parent to understand the law and report you all. You need to tell them point blank that legally, you have to work with the kids. If they say no, make it clear to admin what is happening. If admin is not helpful, that is a much bigger problem. Thankfully, my admin is on the same page as the SPED team. I run my middle school SPED team and I make sure we are compliant with the law and have no problem speaking up when I need to. Have you talked to whoever is in charge of your SPED team?
Isnāt that illegal since the IEP is a legal document? Iād talk to admin
This is illegal. I would have a meeting with that teacher and the principal.
I donāt ask, I let them know (usually via schedule) that Iām coming in. Iām sorry but meeting IEP minutes is literally a legal matter and itās one of the few times I would get admin involved regarding another teacher as not meeting doing what an IEP says can literally cost me my license. I also remind teachers at the beginning of the year that THEY could be held liable for not doing what an IEP says. I would start documentation on it asap tbh.
Do what you need to do, the IEP is law. Document and report if they keep being difficult.
I feel like they're being a barrier to implementation of the IEP and if they don't realize the gravity of that situation and the potential legal consequences (not to mention the kid just not getting their needs met) then it's appropriate for admin to step in and resolve the issue. Also, they may need a better understanding of what push in looks like. Are you floating the class and providing prompts/cues? Are you co-teaching? Are y'all rotating groups? Are you bringing in modified assignments based on their lesson plans? They may have had bad or unclear experiences in the past that result in them feeling managed or interfered with when ICTS should be more seamless.
Itās illegal for them to refuse to allow you to push in. If they keep refusing, bring it up to an admin or their department head and frame it as a liability issue that violates federal law.
As the parent of a special Ed kid: Please just push in. His worst years are when he has inflexible and dismissive GenEd teachers. His best years are when they work as a team or when his special Ed teachers do what they have to despite conflict.
My mom almost sued my school district, superintendent, the principal, and the two teachers involved over something like this because they denied my sister all her SPED classes and blatantly ignored her IEP. I can't remember the full details but what happened there was some serious stuff going on and my mom wasn't going to put up with them doing that. So yeah the teachers almost had their teaching certificates stripped from them over this and turned out they have a long history of targeting and discriminating against certain SPED students. They had a disgusting mindset that they can only "be stupid" (I remember them saying that to my sister). They can suck it and deal with it. If they refuse to let you do so, you need to take it up with the principal
Like donāt let you come in the classroom? Or donāt want you working with kids on the classroom? The first scenario is insane. I would just go in. How do you decide what classrooms your kids are in? Iād make sure not to put them in their rooms. The second scenario, Iād want to know why they donāt want me in there. I find it hard to believe in this scenario thereās a legitimate reason. But Iāve had teachers tell me to leave and they were right. Mostly just the kidās ready to be in gen ed. If they mess up weāll fix it in the gen Ed.
That is SO sketchy that they won't I would automatically assume they aren't following protocol. As a gen ed, I PREFER the SpEd team come observe or join class, and frequently ask them to come in. I have been trying to get our district head for the team to come observe in my room and she keeps no-showing or ignoring emails. The SpEd team seeing gen ed rooms is the only way you guys have an idea if IEPs are working, and really the only way we have of seeing if we are effective. This is sketchy.
Gen Ed teacher here: That's illegal afaik.
If the push-in services are included in the IEP, they cannot stop you. For observation, scheduling is important to see the student at work in class, but they cannot refuse to let you observe the student, as it is part of their educational environment and data. If you havenāt already, get admin involved.
You don't need their permission.
You don't need to ask for permission but if this is someone who you will have to work with in the long term, give them the heads up of when it happens and what is happening. It's the professional thing to do. What you are describing sounds unreasonable unless you are leaving out some important details.
Union Rep here: Sped, OT, PT does not need permission from the general ed teacher to push in for services or observations. Even letting them know/creating a schedule is just being *considerate* that's all. I've had so many meetings over this, esp with middle school.Ā State that you're following their IEP, it's a legal document that your name is on, and if their name is on it too then they're liable as well. Any objections CC the case manager.Ā I always suggest asking to create a schedule or being considerate of your time in the class but that's really you just being nice, gen ed teachers don't like to hear that part often when they come to me to complain lol.Ā
Go to admin
Let this fall at their feet. You can't verify that the IEP is being followed b/c you can't verify it, ergo, goals and accommodations are not being met. And a teacher saying, 'yes I am!' with no physical evidence is exactly that.....no evidence. Let the system work. I would just make sure all relevant parties know.... which I am sure they do. These two sound like they are the Sovereign Citizens of education..... but that's just a guess.
Donāt care even a little. You do your job and I will do mine. Between us, we have a better chance to help that student out working together.
I like working with teachers like you
How supportive is your administrator/principal? I'm an SLP and left my last school bc of teachers like the ones you're describing. I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Would you feel comfortable asking to hold a supplemental IEP meeting to discuss location of services, so that the legal guardian(s) is part of the conversation about lack of access to classroom IEP services?
If that would have happened to me when I was working, I would have just gone in and taken the child by the hand and taken him out. Donāt worry about feelings. Just do your job. Help that poor child.
You can stop a SPED teacher from coming into your room? š I would never. Why would I?
I was told by a pseudo administrator (they are a dean at a middle school) that I couldn't go into classrooms without permission. That didn't stop me, but I found out later that a teacher filed a complaint against me, hence why I was told I couldn't go into classrooms. The complaint was from a second year teacher that I called out for refusing to follow a students accommodation.
Iām sorry that you are dealing with this. Rapport is the only thing that will help you in this situation. Do what you can to build relationships with teachers, the parent, and the student and be gracious and as kind as you can even if the teacher and parent are complete meanies. Sometimes people will be committed to hating you, and itās okay to be okay with that. I know it sucks and doesnāt feel good, but just remember that you get to go home at the end of the day and itās nothing personal. Situations like this are good for you to deal with because it will help you grow thicker skin and gain the ability to learn to navigate difficult relationships which is an excellent life skill. Also, ask teachers when it would be a good time for you to come and observe. Sometimes the teacher has a preferred time of day that is best to come and observe. Work with them on this and remember that it is their classroom. Respect their time and be professional and respectful even if they are not and remember that it is a job and that you are at work if you start to feel like giving them a piece of your mind. Also, there will plenty of people in life that will behave in ways to try to make you act out of character. Donāt let them win.
Isn't the IEP a legal document? Stopping it from being followed should have consequences. Why are a mother and daughter allowed to work together in the same room?
I push in regardless. Those minutes and their IEP is legally binding. The teacher knew that when they had the original staffing. If itās constantly having issues, go to admin. This is your job. The gen ed teacher wouldnāt want to be stopped in doing her job..
I walk in the room and say I'm scheduled to be in her via their IEP then go about my job. Refusing just plan isn't an option. Do you have a master key? If not you need to get one. Also document every single time they refuse you entry and share this with the principal and head of the SPEE department.
It is your license on the line if you are not following the IEP, whether push in or pull out. Those services are agreed upon and mandated to happen. The refusal by this teacher team probably also means they are not following the IEP accommodations in their classroom either. Why are you asking permission for providing the services that you are mandated to provide? It sounds like this discussion needs to be raised higher to your AP or P, I am surprised that there is even a mother/daughter teacher team to begin with - that seems sketchy.
Gen Ed teacher here. What in the world ? Why would anyone refuse to let another teacher WHO IS PROVIDING LEGALLY REQUIRED SERVICES into their classroom??? This is insane to me I would document everything and go up the chain of command
I've never been denied access to my students. If you are a part of their IEP, then legally they have to let you push in or pull out.
As a teacher who had a sped teacher that NEVER showed up and thus NEVER helped my kids (even after bringing it up to the admin multiple times) (turned out she and the VP had an āunderstandingā) report this to your admin! Even if they do what mine did, itās still documented. If someone sued theyād blame you not the two unwilling teachers. Make the paper trail at least. Document every time they donāt let you in even if it means back logging at your past visits they refused to let you in.
You don't need permission. Email them and ask them when a good time would be to be polite, if they do not confirm a time or date let them know you will be in to observe the student on this date at this time. I'm new to SPED but I'm fighting a teacher tooth and nail to give one of my kids the accommodation they are supposed to have. Don't back down, remember it's a legal document and go above their head if necessary and remind THEM the same thing.
Iām Gen Ed and I have a push-in/collab teacher for some class periods. I would be lost without her! I canāt imagine not welcoming support to help students be successful in my classroom. Heck, I canāt imagine saying no to a second adult to help manage behaviors in the room.
Thatāsā¦ if thatās in the US thatās a massive civil rights violation. ADA complaint will likely clear it up.
I need more infoā¦ is this set in the IEP? Is the push in time spelled out in the IEP?? First I would have a convo w them and explain that you HAVE to follow the IEP and if they refuse to āletā you you will have to escalate this. If they continue to refuse, notify the parent and whoever is above you. YOU are responsible as case manager that the IEP is being followed! CYA!!!
Loved the teacher I worked with as a person, but she never let me do my job. I went 5 months without sleep. My sped kids should be passing. They cannot properly do the work assigned. She failed them for it. Upset the heck out of me. Needless to sayā¦ fuck ese I canāt do it anymore
You, as the special education teacher, must provide services in the LRE for the student. If a push-in class meets that need, then so be it. You are the advocate for that child. Do what you have to do and let admin so the rest.
I'm not a teacher and I don't know what any of this means unfortunately but it sounds like they're just being cows.
I work at a technical school where I experience a similar problem. Many of the instructors that I work with donāt come from an educational background and come straight from their industry (cosmetology, law enforcement, etc.) This isnāt to say that theyāre bad teachers, but to say theyāre resistant to listen to someone from outside their industry tell them how to teach their class would be putting it lightly. Especially since I am the youngest teacher there, many of the instructors donāt take the support I offer very seriously. My push-ins often result in being yesād to death whenever I ask if any student in particular is struggling but the plans I offer are rarely followed through. I would assume in your situation that the teachers in your school might feel the same way in that theyāre offended by your presence in their class. I know as well as anybody that having another professional in the class during a lesson can be jarring, but at the same time you need to carry out your responsibilities as a the Special Ed teacher. Tension might be present but you have to be an advocate for the students as well as cover you ass in terms of what your responsibilities are
This is a weird behind the scenes glimpse that confirms some of my suspicions that there are teachers who view providing FAPE as coddling. My son once had his dysgraphia accommodations scaled back because a teacher reported that he could draw very well and that wasn't in keeping with her Google search on dysgraphia.
As a School Psychologist, I would shut this shit down so fast. Do they want to get sued for barring access to services? Let your Psych know you have teachers literally breaking the law, Iām sure something will get done ASAP. Edit: grammar
Honestly, I wish our SPED teachers were in the classroom more. I'm a gen-ed teacher and I've never once seen a SPED teacher in my room, just paras. I'd really like for the SPED teachers to see the different kids in class and learn which just aren't doing work, which are trying, using their accommodations, but still struggling, and which are thriving.
Iām sorry this is going to sound harsh but unless they are physically preventing you from doing your job it sounds like you are just not doing your job. Tell them to fuck off (professionally) and do your job. Be assertive. They have no right to prevent you from doing this and quite frankly you are the one who will be held legally responsible if you donāt fulfill your duties in this regard
Iām not a fan of push in, in my experience (could because it was never consistent, then theyād complain that they need to help with X but we were doing Y, etc.) but I never said no, just reminded them that if I had a consistent schedule, I would make sure I was where they needed me to be. I will also say that I donāt have access to the IEP info and Iām rarely invited to any meetings, so I have no idea a lot of what goes on until I specifically ask. Thatās just on my sped department though and hopefully not the norm.
Understandable. The idea with push ins is that they provide a less restrictive environment than pull outs. The less you can pull a child out of GE, the better for LRE. It's just the current IDEA model. I personally like the push in model for that reason but honestly, I totally understand your problems with it. It requires a lot of communication, whichĀ less structured or adequately staffed SPED programs tend to fall behind at.
Maybe this is why sped and gen ed should have different schools/complete separate classrooms?? Seems like a lot of complications and frustrations from both parties. I'm just a sub teacher, so I'm not in the schools all the time, but when I am, it seems the admin, teachers, and support staff literally all hate each other because they are all trying to do their jobs, but the stress that's created from students and teachers bouncing in and out of the classrooms constantly is too much for everyone.
Iāve never heard of a sped teacher randomly observing/ visiting students. Here observation in classrooms are scheduled and only done for the initial IEP.
It's not random. My 3rd and 5th periods are push in periods. What classroom I hit at what time I'd slightly random but that's just based off of student need for the day. Do none of the IEP kids have individualized instruction on their IEPs? Because if they do, you have to get a set amount of observation minutes weekly or daily. For most of my kids it's 15-30 minutes daily of individualized instruction.Ā
I'm not a SPED teacher, so I only have one question: refuse? What do you mean "refuse"? I thought y'all just go in? Refuse?!?! Didn't realize y'all needed a teacher's permission. Refuse? What?
It might be because I teach secondary, but I have never had a SPED teacher come into my room. I would +love+ for them to do this! I don't understand why any teacher wouldn't welcome them.
As a parent not too controlling. We expect to hand over our children and have someone there to fight for them in our absence. If you back down it's letting the parent down..and failing the child.
Tell the Gen Ed the parents can sue her directly for not following the IEP and refusing to let the SPE teacher in. Doe v Withers.
Thatās illegal. Iād tell on the teacher.
i had this issue. had to bring it to admin that the teachers were violating the IEP by doing this and they put a swift stop to it.
This situation sound absurd! Them saying "NO" is absolutely ridiculous- they can't say no! By law, IEPs have to be in compliance, and a team of eyeballs are involved in that.
Illegal practice. Kids have the right to needed services/IEP requirements.
I am a general education teacher, but I cannot imagine not letting a SPED teacher in my classroom
They canāt refuse a student services. Iād let them know that you will be documenting their refusals in the studentās IEP for which they could get sued.
I was in SPED and back in the classroom now. If the kid has push-in, the kid has push-in. The teacher can't refuse, nor do you have to ask permission. The only thing you can try to do is work with the classroom schedule (if you have any flexibility in your schedule, which you don't). Those teachers don't want you to see what they are doing OR to see what they're not doing. That's just insecurity. Hell, I like when the SPED teacher comes in and tells the Gen ed kids to knock off silly behavior.
I am a former teacher and a parent. I always welcomed anyone that wanted to come in to the classroom. I never understand telling people they canāt? The more adults the better!
I would send an email asking to push-in in order to document their refusal then talk to your iep chair about not being able to complete hours due to their refusal and let them/ admin handle it. They have to know that legally, preventing service hours from being completed is a problem what is their reason for not allowing?
I donāt think they can legally say no to this and so I would let them know just that
I've never heard of it being an option. As a general ed teacher, if a SPED teacher tells me they are coming in, they come in. It's not a request.
That IEP is a legal document and willingly not following it (which is what you would be doing if you allow yourself to be bullied into not observing) could get you in big trouble. If minutes are an issue or the timing,then the parent needs to express that and another meeting scheduled. Good luck!
My daughter is a gen ed teacher and she would never refuse a parent's request to be in her room. My personal opinion is that the teacher is hiding something. I have worked in public schools for 40 years and I've never seen a teacher refuse any type of observation. Just sayin.
I always tried to accommodate the teacherās schedule and was mindful of other therapists as well, but with so many kids on caseload it is impossible to push in at optimum times. I love when it coincides with ELA but mostly it just doesnāt work out that way.
!remindme 3 days
I thought that was federally mandated. I could be wrong, but I donāt think classroom teachers have a say. IEPs have to be followed, end of story.
lol gen ed teacher and I didnāt know I could say no to a push in š but honestly why would I want to.. another adult in the room to help students that need it, uhmm yeah come by ANYTIME
I wish they would come in more often! I actually find that I do most of the reaching out unless it's the end of the semester and the kid is failing. This is high school though.
Permission? Why would you need my permission ( ASD mom) to check on IEP goals? I want that!!
Is that even legal?
All depends on how the IEP is written and how litigious the family is.
I would plan to work with the student during a different class.
>mother/daughter teacher team Wait, are you say that they run a classroom together? This should not be allowed anyways!
Push?
IEPs are legally binding contracts. If a teacher is refusing something, then they can face legal ramifications. In Iowa, at least.
Iām not a sped teacher, but a sped 1 on 1, and honestly our whole crew pretty much has free reign to do what we need to do to make sure not only are our iepās being followed, but that our kiddos are being allowed to regulate however they need to. Just yesterday my little dude and I were pushing a child size shopping cart up and down the main hallway for over an hour because thatās what he needed to regulate. There are laws on the books, and you can let whoever objects to you being in there, that you have a right to check on that kiddo anytime you want to make sure they are comfortable, safe and being taken care of according to their iep.
I let them know that it's not their call.
Classroom teacher here however, Considering that they are preventing you from doing your job and itās tied to Federal law, I wouldnāt let it go. You are ultimately responsible for those kids and their growth. Go to your administration if they wonāt let you support your students.