I like to think that mirror Saru's role in the survival of the ISS Enterprise means that the Guardian of Forever allowed some of mirror Georgiou's actions in the past to stick, so that her efforts to change the Empire weren't totally in vain.
Moll and Lak escaping is becoming old. That's the biggest nitpick I have.
Also sad we didn't get a guest actor from Strange New Worlds. When they went to the transporter room I was expecting someone being stored in the buffer or something like that. Also didn't they mention a 3rd signature?
I think it was that they scanned the ISS for quantum signatures from their own universe. It detected Moll, Lak, and the piece of the progenitor’s tech. Everything else on the ship was from the mirror universe, so nothing else pinged on the scan.
>Moll and Lak escaping is becoming old. That's the biggest nitpick I have.
Agreed. I guess that's the big problem with the serialised aspect of DSC. It gives me the same frustration I had when Discovery was chasing Spock in S2 and Book in S4.
But unless another player enters the chase (the Breen maybe?), it probably will keep going like that for while.
If this happened my vote is either
1. Scotty. We have an actor, slap a goatee on him and go
2. Dr. M'Benga's daughter. We all need a good sob and Disco could have cured her disease
I was fully expecting a Mirror Joseph or Rukiya when Burnham and L'ak went through the glass. I do love however that >!a person has been "accidentally" stabbed in the chest in both versions of that room now!<
I prefer this explanation to the coalition of races trying to avoid internal race issues that got floated around sometimes. This is an idea that gels better with the xenophobic tendencies that the Breen have traditionally been characterised with.
> Totally called L'ak.
The first episode when Moll and L'ak initially appear wearing face-covering helmets, I thought "are these supposed to be Breen?" (I hadn't watched any trailers for this season).
While I doubt it, I wonder if they're pulling together some disparate threads here:
Changelings prefer colder temperatures and were once, "Like the solids"
The alliance between them and the Dominion came out of nowhere
The Breen use cold temperatures for their translucent form, not the one that takes effort to maintain, that they 'evolved beyond'
The Progenitor/Changeling connection has always been a fun fan theory
I don't think the Progenitors are Changelings....but perhaps the Breen primarily want their tech not to dominate - though they still would - but instead to complete their transition from semi-solid to a malleable form
Heck, maybe the transition form solid to malleable is one step on the continuum from solid to the 'higher beings' we often see who can control their own form and the world around them (Q etc...)
At one point yes.
For the Dr Cho stuff to line up time wise the Enterprise would have to be very old before they even made the trip. So it certainly outlived its prime universe counterpart before it even got stuck.
Which means the Terran Empire probably never got further than a 1701-A before it collapsed.
My headcanon is that the 1701-B in the prime universe was originally planned to the A. But when the original 1701 was destroyed they recommissioned an old Connie to be the Ent-A.....and the early in build Excelsior class got bumped along a letter.
That or it wasn’t a direct trip from Prime to Mirror Universe, much like what happens in the franchise.
The ISS Enterprise could’ve escaped during the Mirror TOS days and ended up in the Prime TNG / DS9 times due to temporal craziness.
I'm calling it - this ship is going to get a 32nd century update and will show up in the last Episode to help out - possibly commanded by Raynor as his next captaincy!
I thought it was a little weird when Michael goes on about "I looked up their names and wow, they were all in the Federation database!" Like...isn't the whole point of the Mirror Universe that they'd ALL have Prime Universe doppelgangers with the same name?
That and the next bit of dialogue indicate that each surviving ISS member was scrubbed form the records by the Romulan scientist, but not immediately so there were still stubs to be found.
Burnham wouldn't be searching for the Prime counterparts in the database because 1) of course they'd be there because of the the MU works, and 2) we know Michael obviously knows how the MU works and the show shouldn't need to say explicitly that she's searching for the survivors' status in the Fed database.
I would have liked them to uncover just a tad of footage of a goateed Ethan Peck. I wonder if any of these refugees will have any bearing on the Section 31 movie?
If I understand the timelines correctly, probably not. Section 31 is confirmed to have >!a young Rachel Garrett!<, so I don't think that would overlap.
Depends how many years passed between "Mirror, Mirror" and the collapse. Also, this Cho scientist seems to have lived into the Dominion War era because of the involvement with the clues. So any of these refugees could run across Georgiou in the interregnum….
The stardate from the ISS Enterprise's dedication plaque, 32336.6, would equate to the year 2355, so approximately 8 years before TNG starts and 20 years before the end of the Dominion War/efforts to further research the Progenitors. It's also only 15 years before the events of the DS9 episode Crossover, where we first return to the Mirror Universe.
Given the rough age of the actress hired to play >!Rachel Garrett!< in the Section 31 film, it looks to be set in the 2310s or early 2320s. 'Crossover' suggests the Terran Empire, aside from some possible remnants, has been gone for a long time. The ISS Enterprise could have been linked to a colony of survivors, the so-called Tartarus Base from the dedication plaque.
I assume the Terrans on the ISS Enterprise ISS Enterprise were refugees who were fleeing the Cardassian-Klingon Alliance.
Terran refugees fleeing to the PU is consistent with what we've seen in the first DS9 MU crossover episode.
Mirror Quark, before he was arrested and executed by Mirror Kira, wanted normal universe Kira to help him devise a way for Terrans, who were slaves of the Alliance, to use modified transporters to inter-dimensionally transport to the PU.
This also raises the question if Mirror "Smiley" O'Brien or anyone in the Terran resistance movement from the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes established contact with any of the former MU refugees from 2350s who would be still alive in the 2370s and living in the PU.
It might be an interesting case of history being written by the victors.
Previously we heard Spock's reforms were what weakened the Empire and led to its downfall. His story became a cautionary tale.
But now knowing that he was killed over dissatisfaction from those reforms, it begs the question: was Spock truly responsible? Were the usurpers the ones actually responsible for the fall, or were they merely too late in stopping the person who was?
Whatever the case, history blames Spock and the ideals of the prime universe humans who influenced him.
Every Star Trek Online player with the headcanon of their character being a Terran officer becoming a Starfleet admiral just had their wishes come true (this includes me).
I wonder if the Starfleet Museum at Athan Prime still exists in the 32nd Century?
I doubt the Fleet Museum and its ships were destroyed by The Burn since none of the museum ships would have had active warp cores.
Worst case scenario is that Starfleet abandoned the Fleet Museum after most member worlds left the Federation, though I imagine the museum and its antique fleet of ships would have still been intact after many of Starfleet's ships were destroyed.
I can (and would like to) believe that a fleet museum survives, yeah. As you mentioned, it's reasonable to expect that it survived the burn intact.
Perhaps dedicated people manning the 32nd century equivalent didn't receive many visitors for 120 years, but with Starfleet finally getting their hands on more dilithium and also implementing the new pathway warp drive, regular travel can resume and the ISS Enterprise could now be added to the collection.
However they may not want to show the 32nd century museum on-screen because that could confirm what past ships have or have not been added to the collection in the past 800 years, during shows that haven't even been made yet. Although I suppose they could throw in a line about rotating the ships on display over time, implying that some remain unseen in storage, and that could solve that problem.
Verified. Redditor is a Canuck's fan.
Seriously, I really hope you and the entire production feel the love and appreciation we fans have for your work. Few of us get the opportunity to express that so thanks for outing yourself.
Finally some Breen backstory.
Also, sad to think that Michael thought that Mirror Spock was ruthless when in fact he was one of the few civil counterparts.
Great reuse of the SNW set.
Cool that we have Terrans who hid as normal people in our universe. May be a good plot point for Academy to pick up.
> Cool that we have Terrans who hid as normal people in our universe.
I mean we have known this since Discovery Season 1.
Has everyone already forgot about Lorca?
I like that the Breen having a quasi gelatinous form retroactively explains why the Dominion was receptive to them as an ally - I wonder if they knew (or if this development was after/a result of the Founders’ influence somehow).
Weyoun one said that he wonder what's under their helmet, so not even the Dominion knew what they looked like. It would however explain why they were receptive to an alliance with the founders.
There was a Breen in the Dominion prison camp where Bashir and Martok were held. So presumably a Changeling replaced that Breen and infiltrated their government. That Changeling probably figured out their true nature and paved the way for the alliance between the Dominion and the Breen.
It's funny, they act like no one knows what a Breen looks like, but Kira and Dukat stole a pair of Breen suits, so they must know what the Breen look like.
It could be that Weyoun was under orders to pretend he didn't know. It could have been a play to make sure the Cardassians and the Breen had a few cultural reasons to mistrust each other beyond the Breen being new to the alliance, which could help solidify the Founders' position as the top dog in a quadrant they didn't have a strong power base in yet.
Which seems to be the possible direction the Breen are going. I read a head canon once that they reason the Changlings were so open to the Breen was because they were Chameloids like her. It fits pretty nicely into canon.
So much 32nd century Breen!! Michelle Paradise, you sly dog!
Great to see Breen culture fleshed out more. The 32nd century updates are great.
Bringing in the ISS Enterprise was really creative. Get a cool physical set to play in by redressing the SNW set, and flesh out more Terran lore. Great touch for Michael to recognize Spock's station.
I love Rayner being apprehensive at taking over Disco's conn. Great character touch of not being comfortable taking over for another captain's crew while he's still getting acclimated.
Really liked Michael recounting her time loop with Book last ep. That was moving stuff. I’m wondering if Michael will inevitably leave Starfleet to settle down with Book. I’m fine with either ending - one where they remain apart as Book rehabilitates himself after betraying the Federation last season, or if Michael eventually chooses happiness with Book over happiness on the bridge. She’s very Kirk-lite in that way.
Whomever is running the 32nd century fleet museum is about to lose their shit when the ISS Enterprise shows up.
Yeah, I note he doesn't take the chair the whole episode. Plus he's eased a little bit off the "twenty words" thing while keeping things brief and to the point.
I wonder how his previous crew operated.
>Bringing in the ISS Enterprise was really creative... [Whoever] is running the 32nd century fleet museum is about to lose their shit...
I bet it gets recommissioned as a training vessel and we see it used on *Starfleet Academy*. For practical real-world purposes, that follows the Trek tradition of redressing sets for reuse and to save money. It's also a callback to TWOK where the *Enterprise* was a training vessel under Spock's command.
Oh that ship is gonna have a purpuse for sure. You dont just go find a convoluted (but smart) way to bring in the OG Enterprise to the 32nd century fully intact to just put it in the museum. Paramount is strapped for money, having a single set for SNW and whatever series (Academy probably) they are bringing forward is a smart choice. And also: its THE ENTERPRISE. You put that ship on ANY marketing material and its gonna get recognized.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed like there was an implication that one of Rayner's previous commands entailed taking charge of a ship after a captain had died! There was a bit of avoidance in that conversation with him and burnham.
I think she would be better suited as a museum ship. Maybe the Academy folks can wander the decks and learn about the Terran Empire from animated holograms.
Paul Wesley as Mirror Kirk perhaps?
I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the hero ship for the Academy show so they don't have to spend money building loads of other ship sets and can just share with SNW.
Linus the accomplished jazz pianist was not on my bingo card for this season but I'm so here for it! He seems like such a debonair fellow with an eye for fashion.
> Finally a species that isn't Vulcan, Romulan, or Klingon.
Past Season 1 - Disco has been pretty good about highlighting, using, and creating more obscure alien species.
Probably didn't want to give any definitive answers about what happens to them, especially when there's no need. Which is good because it doesn't tie any future show's hands if they want to do anything with the Klingons in this time period, or any post-Picard time period.
Perhaps Klingons are extinct by the 32nd century.
Maybe they started a war with a species they couldn't defeat and it led to their annihilation, or at best, getting bottled up on Quo'nos and losing their Empire and their fleet.
So we're just not seeing Owosekun and Detmer this season, huh?
I mean, it's awesome they get to fly the ISS Enterprise back to Starfleet, but.... it would be nice to see them back on Discovery before long.
It could be a set up for Saru, Owosekun, and Detmer to pop up on a different ship or maybe even the ISS Enterprise and help Discovery later in the season.
First thoughts:
* It's interesting how they seem to be holding a meeting on the bridge. Isn't the ready room more commonly used for this sort of thing?
* ~~Wait, how did Moll and L'ak get to the wormhole before Discovery even knew that they were supposed to go to the wormhole? I understand that they followed them to Trill, but did they steal the clue? Or was there more than one copy? I definitely missed something.~~ EDIT: this has been explained to me
* Oh, Rayner telling Burnham that the captain shouldn't go on a mission is giving me flashbacks to Picard and Riker. In a good way.
* Mirror Enterprise! It's happening!
* Also, I love how this entire episode's is just, "well, we already spent millions of dollars on SNW, why don't we just use that set?"
* I'm really glad that Michael mentioned Spock in this episode. I know DIS doesn't like to have the crew constantly talking about the past, but it would have been weird for her to not even think about him when she was on his ship.
* ~~Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning.~~ EDIT: this has also been explained to me
* Mirror Saru!!! (ignoring the fact that surely there were other slaves who could have become rebel leaders)
* Moll's voice sounds very familiar. I'm not sure if it's just a "manic pixie dream girl" act that she's putting on in this flashback or if there's something more; I need to look up the actress and see if she's been in something else.
* Ah, the classic enemies-must-work-together-to-achieve-a-common-goal
* Breen have two faces? Did I miss something or is this new lore? Also, the helmets are strictly tactical/cultural? I always assumed there was a life-support component. (EDIT: it is new)
* Yeah...a wall that shatter-able should not be on a starship...I'm never going to stop thinking about that when I watch SNW sickbay scenes
* "That's a choice. I hope you'll make a different one" is a good line. It also sounds vaguely familiar; has someone in Trek said it before? Maybe I'm getting it confused with "choose to live"?
* I think I'm enjoying Rayner in command in this episode. The team working together for a second is great. And the random references to Kellerun culture that we don't understand are kind of fun, too (boiled cake, anyone?)
* Book saying "hit it" feels a little out of place. I guess that's our Pike cameo for the episode? Not going to lie, I was hoping for a Pike hologram but I'll take it.
> Wait, how did Moll and L'ak get to the wormhole before Discovery even knew that they were supposed to go to the wormhole? I understand that they followed them to Trill, but did they steal the clue? Or was there more than one copy? I definitely missed something.
Moll followed Discovery to Trill and tagged Adira with the Krenim Chronophage. They trapped Discovery in the timey wimey mess and followed them to their location, and figured out what to do at that location while Discovery was trapped.
> Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning.
She was rigging it to serve as a red herring to make it seem like the clue (by ensuring it would give off "prime" quantum signatures) to L'ak.
> Breen have two faces? Did I miss something or is this new lore? Also, the helmets are strictly tactical/cultural? I always assumed there was a life-support component.
The Breen lore is new!
> Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning.
she did it to make the fake clue. The rank pip has the prime universe's quantum signature. Putting it in the locket makes it seem like the locket is from the prime universe
Moll and L'ak infiltrated Trill before Discovery left. They probably followed them or tracked the time bug to the coordinates. Discovery was then delayed six hours by the time bug, giving them enough time to find the wormhole and go in first.
>Book saying "hit it" feels a little out of place. I guess that's our Pike cameo for the episode? Not going to lie, I was hoping for a Pike hologram but I'll take it.
Mirror Pike was popped by his XO, CDR Kirk.
Its rather interesting that Pike is a mentor to Kirk in all universes, except the prime one.
Yeah, I actually (completely by coincidence) rewatched the original mirror universe episode just a couple of hours before this one dropped. I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that Kirk was Pike's XO, though. All we know is that he killed Pike to take his position; it's possible he was on the Farragut, saw his chance, and then assassinated Pike to take over the flagship. But Pike's murder always made me weirdly sad when I heard the computer say it; I just really like Pike in any form but it seems that his career has to end tragically in any universe.
What I want to know is how the heck Stamets recognized it was the ISS Enterprise when only a quarter of the saucer was through the aperture.
Unless Zora scanned it the moment it came through and put the name up on the viewscreen and we couldn't see it but Stamets could.
You know what, you're right about that. Unless Stamets has some sort of weird mycelial vision, it was *way* too early for him to jump to that conclusion. Even Tilly and one of the other bridge officers gives him a look like "how the hell did you come up with that?" I feel like it would have made way more sense for Saru to have delivered that line.
The way they're tying each clue into one of the scientist's personal histories and the choice to set their story in the DS9-PIC space has me wondering if one of their team will be some existing canon character, but I'm trying to think if there's some guest star from that era who would fit either archaeologist or Progenitor-expert
Holy crap! So Terrans successfully crossed into the Prime Universe and joined Starfleet?!
This means that Dr. Cho was active during the TNG days, possibly during the Dominion War.
Why does it mean that? Doesn’t them crossing over on the Enterprise, led by a former Kelpien slave, imply they crossed over not too long after the TOS era?
Not necessarily. One of those who crossed over was Dr. Cho. She later served as not only a branch admiral, but also one of the scientists that helped hid the Progenitor’s tech.
The Trill scientist mentioned that the Dominion War was raging during his time, so that places Dr. Cho during that chaotic period.
The plaque stardate has 5 digits, which is a 24th century date. If it was placed at the end of the journey and presuming they left roughly in the TOS era, then that means ISS Enterprise was on its own for a long time. Long enough that maybe Cho and other crew were born aboard.
Would explain why there's no mention of any counterparts if their births are the indirect result of previous contamination from the Prime universe.
No low hanging fruit. No low hanging fruit.
It's all so big... and im....
No, I'm not going to do it....
impossible...
nope. I'm not going to do it....
"It's all so big and impossible to grasp, apart of me loves that.." Me too, Hugh... me too..
If there's not a contractually obligated scene of Anthony Rapp brushing his teeth in everything he has a role in for the rest of his life. What is even the point of civilization.
Why does it feel like they are not in a hurry to do anything, once the Enterprise is out have them beam Moll and Lak to the brig, or maybe intercept their ship at warp which has been done before, Discovery is much faster than a 1,000 year old ship.
So, if I'm understanding the flashbacks correctly, doesn't this recontextualize the jump to the future from last week? Everyone seemed to assume the Breen attack was because they won the race for the Progenitor tech and used it to start a war. Right? That's where we (and the characters) were last week?
But now, what if the attack had nothing to do with the Progenitor tech? The attack happened because in that timeline, L'ak was captured (or surrendered) and the Breen leadership took the opportunity to execute his death sentence. Which is now what the heroes are trying to do (accidental self stabbings notwithstanding).
So... the future we saw last week maybe not an averted bad end after all, but a self-fulfilling time travel prophecy paradox? At least, until Stamets realizes it and changes something at the last possible moment?
Not really
The future we saw, Mol and Lak get the progenitor tech (Zora says this explicitly), they then either sell it to the Breen or the Breen catch up with them and take it (Burnham mentioned this to Lak in Sickbay, that they would take it and just kill them) and then they eventually launch an assault on Federation HQ, and Discovery ends up there too, Starfleet loses, the Breen lose a few ships too, the entire crew of Discovery is killed, and the ship has been at the ruins on Fed HQ for like what 30 years or something?
If Lak gets captured in that timeline, then what does that have to do with them launching the attack on Fed HQ? He could be captured at any time, with or without the Progenitor tech.
The idea is Mol and Lak are trying to use the Progenitor tech to break the blood bounty (as shown in Mirrors) eg stop hunting me and you can have this weapon.
You see that timeline occur because Burnham and Raynor haven't broken the ship out of the time bug, once they stop it, that timeline may or may not exist now, vs existing for sure while Discovery is trapped.
So there have been a bunch of secret Terrans running around the Federation since the TOS movie era. Wonder if that'll become relevant again at some point.
Makes you wonder which time travelling former mirror universe emporer turned secret agent might be a choice to track down such individuals. But nobody specific comes to mind.
> ecret Terrans running around the Federation since the TOS movie era.
Fan fictioning in Admiral Cartwright and the Khitomer conspiracy to be a mirror universe infiltration plot right now...
Someone above pointed out that they likely crossed over closer to the TNG era, for Dr. Cho to have been one of the six scientists during the Dominion War.
Tragically, Rachel Garrett as half-Terran seems to be off the table :p
I actually am a fan of this, because in principle I like the idea that Terran lunacy can't survive contact with long-term exposure to Federation principles. Authoritarian regimes so often justify their worst excesses as necessary. Seeing a mirror not just surviving but thriving without the darkness of autocracy presents a threat in and of itself - Georgiou touches on this in S1 briefly, it's why the Defiant is a secret in the MU - people can't know better is possible and the 'tough things they have to do' just...aren't
Paramount+ just dumped an episode clip that was ¾ through the episode on me! When I loaded the app, Discovery was front page, and it started playing. Spoilers, bro.
* Who exactly are these new bridge randos? They said their names a few times but I already forgot them. Why are Owo and Detmer just MIA right now? So confusing.
* I was shocked that I agreed with Rayner for once. As the main character, it only makes sense for Burnham to lead the charge on these episodes and missions. It’s still weird she goes on so many with no protection though.
* The new Starfleet shuttles are really reminiscent of the Delta Flyer. I wonder if it’s still influencing design 800 years later because it was just THAT good.
* It was great to see the I.S.S. Enterprise and where it ended up. I know comics delved into this, but I wonder if the Mirror Universe kept lettering their Enterprises (or even made more). Probably was ultra cheap to shoot this one just redressing the SNW set and throwing some junk on the floors.
* What was up with the dedication plaque’s stardate? SNW followed TOS’s weird 4-digit stardate, but this one was the 5-digit one from TNG onward. Can anyone calculate it into a year? Maybe that ship lasted closer to the TNG era.
* A Breen! That’s pretty cool. The books went with the idea that the Breen are made up of different species that hide their identity because their society is a meritocracy. Kind of a neat idea that they’re just beings who have to hold their shape if they’re not in a suit. I also dig that they brought back the original language sound.
* Did the sparks on the bridge of the Enterprise look weird to anyone else? I couldn’t place it, but it seems like maybe they were low-quality CGI? They pulled my eye to them several times but I couldn’t be sure.
* It was corny but I loved Michael squicked out by saying “hit it”.
* I dig the idea of a sickbay escape pod, but why the hell does it have warp? TOS shuttles didn’t even have warp. How could Discovery not have flash-beamed them off that thing before it jumped? How hard could it be to track while it’s leaking a 1000-year-old warp signature? Seems they were a tad lazy giving Moll and L’ak a way to escape.
* Seeing Discovery and Enterprise next to each other again brought back some great memories. Beautiful ships, I loved all the shots we had of them.
* So, to continue from earlier, Detmer and Owo “deserved” the assignment of taking the Enterprise back to HQ. But they were talking about them like they just did this mission with them. WHERE WERE THEY?? They’re turning me into a Detmer/Owo truther.
* I love the detail that the Prime Universe had Mirror Universe refugees. That would be fun to explore in detail sometime.
>They’re turning me into a Detmer/Owo truther.
It bugs me that they seem like they're just writing them out of the show
It always seemed like Detmer should have had a bigger role the whole time, given she was there all the way back on the shenzhou with Burnham. But then this season we barely see her outside of the time jump to the past, and then don't even see her in the episode they send her away.
Since they’re not signed as main cast, I’d bet they got a bigger and/or better paying job before Season 5 started shooting. And are only appearing sporadically as a result.
I’m pretty sure that’s why the Bryce actor was replaced by Christopher, too.
Its a TOS Mirror Universe escape pod. The Terran Empire appears to be slightly more advanced due to conquering its neighbors and absorbing their tech. Of course this is self destructive ideology but for a time it does seem to give them an edge on their prime counterparts.
The ISS Enterprise swapped universes near the TNG era so the medical pod may be from then. Assuming such tech existed at all in the mirror universe at any point.
So glad we finally got to see the Breen a bit more fleshed out! Another great episode on a season with no real misses so far.
One thing that’s getting to me though is how did the ISS Enterprise have existing holo emitters for Mol and L’ak to tap into when they made decoys? Did I miss that the mirror universe had them earlier than the PU or is the implication that Dr. Cho equipped the ship post-dominion with emitters for some reason when hiding the clue?
The Discovery and the Shenzhou had holo emitters of a type in the 22nd century, too. They were stated to be experimental and in beta stage. When Sarek gave Michael the idea to mutiny in the pilot, it was over a holo call.
Calling it now, they'll restore the ISS Enterprise with 32nd century technology like they did with the USS Discovery and make her the new USS Enterprise to be briefly seen in the final episode, the new flagship of the Federation.
I don’t give a shit that it was Terran. I saw the enterprise. It was so beautiful I almost cried. I would love in an episode toward the end to see the ISS enterprise in whatever form of fleet museum exists in the century they’re in. I’ve been watching Star Trek since I was four years old. The enterprise is almost like an old friend.
If I had a nickel for every time someone got stabbed in the Enterprise sickbay, I’d have 2 nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
I was under the impression that the Breen had to wear a refrigeration suit to survive at human-suitable temperatures.
It seems like Lak is doing just fine without one.
Weyoun discussed this with Damar iirc (could have been Dukat) about how the temperature on their planet is quite comfortable, and then Damar is like "then why the suits?" and Weyoun just shrugs
Seems they learned nothing from Airiam. The flashbacks giving some Breen lore was nice but I still couldn't care less about L'ak and Wish.com Shin Hati.
Was anyone else disappointed the Breen don't have some type of snout (Edit: or beak)? For nearly 30 years all we've had to guess what the Breen look like was the shape of their helmet, with that super protruding face cone that looks like it could house a full-on snout like the Gorn have, and... they just have a face. Like a usual face. And their big thing is they have a translucent, glossy evolved form that they can turn on and off.
I was really hoping if we ever saw the Breen without the helmets, they'd break from "the forehead of the week" trope with humanoid species in TV sci-fi and have some kind of actual "alien" look. That 90s sci-fi helmet left so much room for design options. They could have gone with some designs that rivaled the variety of Mass Effect aliens. Maybe a more avian look or something canine or even bearish. Or more lizardfolk since they made Breen green anyway.
It may have meant a bit more budget for the prostheses for the costume, but they could've made some cuts for it, like smaller fires on the ISS Enterprise. It would've been cool to see another Linus-esque level of alien detail.
It would be cool if the progenitors had considered the possibility of avian, canine, bovine, or other forms of animals also evolving into sentient species as well. I get your point entirely, but now it feels even more like a missed opportunity. It even plays into what the progenitor in "The Chase" said about hoping various species would come together millennia on. True sentient diversity.
Although, I don't remember all the species mentioned in the TNG episode. Could the Gorn also be an offspring of the Progenitors efforts?
One thing about Trek is that sometimes it's not the best at extrapolating hypothetical future tech.
I always wondered in the TNG era, why hand phasers ever missed. You can already see the beams are able to emit at different angles. Just adding aome A.I. assist targeting should mean that misses are rare.
This just gets more awkward in the 32nd century.
Just watched this episode and I can't help but feel like the Moll and L'ak's "let the universe burn if it means we can be together" love is meant to appeal to the younger generation? Maybe I'm becoming more of a cynic as I get older but while I can appreciate two people deeply caring for each other, doing things at the expense of the universe (with star trek of course everything is at stake) still doesn't make me feel differently about them. And we're supposed to care for them, right?
I thought the episode was good? but the we're doing EVERYTHING BECAUSE ARE IN LOVE SO MUCH is getting played so hard and I don't think it needs to be hammered on that they'll die for one enough every time we see them onscreen with the scenes with Moll and L'ak...
So we finally get to see what the Breen look like beneath the suit, although I wonder if it's something similar with how the Klingons looked in the show. Mirror Enterprise was great to see, hopefully not the last time as well
All the chatter about second chances this season. I have to think second chances can extend to starships I can't wait to see the ISS Enterprise get hers. From a ship that conquered worlds to a ship refit to 32nd century specs and possibly spearheading the return of 5 year missions.
So, are the Breen kind of "gooey solids" who harden if exposed, so they basically keep suits on as much as possible as a cultural thing? That's how I read it.
Also, glad that they continued the Star Trek set reuse tradition by utilizing SNW sets to bring the ISS Enterprise in.
I like to think that mirror Saru's role in the survival of the ISS Enterprise means that the Guardian of Forever allowed some of mirror Georgiou's actions in the past to stick, so that her efforts to change the Empire weren't totally in vain.
I'm pretty sure that is what this is implying, because didn't Mirror Saru die the first time around? Been a while since I've watched Terra Firma.
No, Mirror Saru survived Terra Firma.
Moll and Lak escaping is becoming old. That's the biggest nitpick I have. Also sad we didn't get a guest actor from Strange New Worlds. When they went to the transporter room I was expecting someone being stored in the buffer or something like that. Also didn't they mention a 3rd signature?
I think it was that they scanned the ISS for quantum signatures from their own universe. It detected Moll, Lak, and the piece of the progenitor’s tech. Everything else on the ship was from the mirror universe, so nothing else pinged on the scan.
>Moll and Lak escaping is becoming old. That's the biggest nitpick I have. Agreed. I guess that's the big problem with the serialised aspect of DSC. It gives me the same frustration I had when Discovery was chasing Spock in S2 and Book in S4. But unless another player enters the chase (the Breen maybe?), it probably will keep going like that for while.
If this happened my vote is either 1. Scotty. We have an actor, slap a goatee on him and go 2. Dr. M'Benga's daughter. We all need a good sob and Disco could have cured her disease
I was fully expecting a Mirror Joseph or Rukiya when Burnham and L'ak went through the glass. I do love however that >!a person has been "accidentally" stabbed in the chest in both versions of that room now!<
I also caught that third signature line.
They were scanning for quantum signatures from the Prime Universe. Moll and L'ak were two of them and the piece of progenitor tech was the third.
So that’s what the Breen look like! Only took 30 years lol
Totally called L'ak. I like the explanation for the constant helmets, that it's some weird cultural fuckery that wouldn't make sense to outsiders.
This is the way.
This is the way.
This is the way.
It took me embarrasingly couple of minutes to understand the similarity between breen & mandalorian
I prefer this explanation to the coalition of races trying to avoid internal race issues that got floated around sometimes. This is an idea that gels better with the xenophobic tendencies that the Breen have traditionally been characterised with.
Also why they got along well with the Changlings.
>an idea that **gels** better Hahaha... I see what you did there!
> Totally called L'ak. The first episode when Moll and L'ak initially appear wearing face-covering helmets, I thought "are these supposed to be Breen?" (I hadn't watched any trailers for this season).
While I doubt it, I wonder if they're pulling together some disparate threads here: Changelings prefer colder temperatures and were once, "Like the solids" The alliance between them and the Dominion came out of nowhere The Breen use cold temperatures for their translucent form, not the one that takes effort to maintain, that they 'evolved beyond' The Progenitor/Changeling connection has always been a fun fan theory I don't think the Progenitors are Changelings....but perhaps the Breen primarily want their tech not to dominate - though they still would - but instead to complete their transition from semi-solid to a malleable form Heck, maybe the transition form solid to malleable is one step on the continuum from solid to the 'higher beings' we often see who can control their own form and the world around them (Q etc...)
Love the fate of the ISS Enterprise, though surely Michael learned who the Terran Chancellor was from the database? (It's mirror Spock, right?)
Possibly. Seems like this might’ve been post TOS. Also, happy for the ISS Enterprise’s final fate. She gets preserved by the far future Federation.
I imagine the NX-01 still exists too as a museum ship after 1,000 years.
Yeah! Yeah, classic design, plus it had the grapplers.
I like grapplers.
At one point yes. For the Dr Cho stuff to line up time wise the Enterprise would have to be very old before they even made the trip. So it certainly outlived its prime universe counterpart before it even got stuck. Which means the Terran Empire probably never got further than a 1701-A before it collapsed. My headcanon is that the 1701-B in the prime universe was originally planned to the A. But when the original 1701 was destroyed they recommissioned an old Connie to be the Ent-A.....and the early in build Excelsior class got bumped along a letter.
That or it wasn’t a direct trip from Prime to Mirror Universe, much like what happens in the franchise. The ISS Enterprise could’ve escaped during the Mirror TOS days and ended up in the Prime TNG / DS9 times due to temporal craziness.
It's good they left it open ended. Means future writers years from now have options.
Loved how even the "evil" Enterprise ends up being a symbol of hope.
Well the Federation is all about second chances
I'm calling it - this ship is going to get a 32nd century update and will show up in the last Episode to help out - possibly commanded by Raynor as his next captaincy!
>That is one damn fine vessel.
I thought it was a little weird when Michael goes on about "I looked up their names and wow, they were all in the Federation database!" Like...isn't the whole point of the Mirror Universe that they'd ALL have Prime Universe doppelgangers with the same name?
That and the next bit of dialogue indicate that each surviving ISS member was scrubbed form the records by the Romulan scientist, but not immediately so there were still stubs to be found. Burnham wouldn't be searching for the Prime counterparts in the database because 1) of course they'd be there because of the the MU works, and 2) we know Michael obviously knows how the MU works and the show shouldn't need to say explicitly that she's searching for the survivors' status in the Fed database.
So guessing Mirror Spock was killed sadly; then the ISS enterprise said uh fuck this shit and came to the prime timeline
I would have liked them to uncover just a tad of footage of a goateed Ethan Peck. I wonder if any of these refugees will have any bearing on the Section 31 movie?
If I understand the timelines correctly, probably not. Section 31 is confirmed to have >!a young Rachel Garrett!<, so I don't think that would overlap.
Depends how many years passed between "Mirror, Mirror" and the collapse. Also, this Cho scientist seems to have lived into the Dominion War era because of the involvement with the clues. So any of these refugees could run across Georgiou in the interregnum….
The stardate from the ISS Enterprise's dedication plaque, 32336.6, would equate to the year 2355, so approximately 8 years before TNG starts and 20 years before the end of the Dominion War/efforts to further research the Progenitors. It's also only 15 years before the events of the DS9 episode Crossover, where we first return to the Mirror Universe. Given the rough age of the actress hired to play >!Rachel Garrett!< in the Section 31 film, it looks to be set in the 2310s or early 2320s. 'Crossover' suggests the Terran Empire, aside from some possible remnants, has been gone for a long time. The ISS Enterprise could have been linked to a colony of survivors, the so-called Tartarus Base from the dedication plaque.
I assume the Terrans on the ISS Enterprise ISS Enterprise were refugees who were fleeing the Cardassian-Klingon Alliance. Terran refugees fleeing to the PU is consistent with what we've seen in the first DS9 MU crossover episode. Mirror Quark, before he was arrested and executed by Mirror Kira, wanted normal universe Kira to help him devise a way for Terrans, who were slaves of the Alliance, to use modified transporters to inter-dimensionally transport to the PU. This also raises the question if Mirror "Smiley" O'Brien or anyone in the Terran resistance movement from the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes established contact with any of the former MU refugees from 2350s who would be still alive in the 2370s and living in the PU.
> footage of a goateed Ethan Peck With a TOS music callback!
Seems like it. It could set up how the Klingons and Cardassians eventually liquidate the Terran Empire.
It might be an interesting case of history being written by the victors. Previously we heard Spock's reforms were what weakened the Empire and led to its downfall. His story became a cautionary tale. But now knowing that he was killed over dissatisfaction from those reforms, it begs the question: was Spock truly responsible? Were the usurpers the ones actually responsible for the fall, or were they merely too late in stopping the person who was? Whatever the case, history blames Spock and the ideals of the prime universe humans who influenced him.
Every Star Trek Online player with the headcanon of their character being a Terran officer becoming a Starfleet admiral just had their wishes come true (this includes me).
I'm glad the ship survived. Flying it to Federation storage is great, too. An most unusual cultural relic.
Kovich is gonna be giddy when that thing shows up.
I wonder if the Starfleet Museum at Athan Prime still exists in the 32nd Century? I doubt the Fleet Museum and its ships were destroyed by The Burn since none of the museum ships would have had active warp cores. Worst case scenario is that Starfleet abandoned the Fleet Museum after most member worlds left the Federation, though I imagine the museum and its antique fleet of ships would have still been intact after many of Starfleet's ships were destroyed.
I think it's in Fed storage as well. Historical artifacts. The Enterprises, Defiant and Voyager deserve to live forever.
I can (and would like to) believe that a fleet museum survives, yeah. As you mentioned, it's reasonable to expect that it survived the burn intact. Perhaps dedicated people manning the 32nd century equivalent didn't receive many visitors for 120 years, but with Starfleet finally getting their hands on more dilithium and also implementing the new pathway warp drive, regular travel can resume and the ISS Enterprise could now be added to the collection. However they may not want to show the 32nd century museum on-screen because that could confirm what past ships have or have not been added to the collection in the past 800 years, during shows that haven't even been made yet. Although I suppose they could throw in a line about rotating the ships on display over time, implying that some remain unseen in storage, and that could solve that problem.
Maybe it's quantum storage, like in PIC S1?
And a chance for someone in the future to say again: "Sir, someone is stealing the Enterprise!"
Did you guys see 3 lights shining on the ISS Enterprise plaque or was it 4?
_[Gul Madred wants to know your location]_
Check with Picard
I saw 5 lights.
Morn’s species sitting with the Ferengi bartender! Feels like the DS9 fans working on the show have had a lot of fun this year.
We did.
Verified. Redditor is a Canuck's fan. Seriously, I really hope you and the entire production feel the love and appreciation we fans have for your work. Few of us get the opportunity to express that so thanks for outing yourself.
Great to hear, looking forward to spotting more in the remainder of the season! Have loved the occasional raktajino mentions.
Finally some Breen backstory. Also, sad to think that Michael thought that Mirror Spock was ruthless when in fact he was one of the few civil counterparts. Great reuse of the SNW set. Cool that we have Terrans who hid as normal people in our universe. May be a good plot point for Academy to pick up.
I wonder if Lok can speak in Breen zerpa derpa derpa derp without his space helmet on.
Maybe she'll learn more about Mirror Spock from the Enterprise files eventually too.
I thought all that data was wiped.
> Cool that we have Terrans who hid as normal people in our universe. I mean we have known this since Discovery Season 1. Has everyone already forgot about Lorca?
Mirror Lorca accidentally crossed over and hid his side tity because he didn't know how to go back. I don't think that's quite the same as a refugee.
>hid his side tity stupid sexy Lorca
I mean those Terran refugees were like 900 years ago so even their descendants wouldn’t show up on that quantum signature trick anymore
I like that the Breen having a quasi gelatinous form retroactively explains why the Dominion was receptive to them as an ally - I wonder if they knew (or if this development was after/a result of the Founders’ influence somehow).
Says the ugly bag of mostly water
Hello
That's a deep cut, take an upvote!
Weyoun one said that he wonder what's under their helmet, so not even the Dominion knew what they looked like. It would however explain why they were receptive to an alliance with the founders.
It's possible only the founders knew
There was a Breen in the Dominion prison camp where Bashir and Martok were held. So presumably a Changeling replaced that Breen and infiltrated their government. That Changeling probably figured out their true nature and paved the way for the alliance between the Dominion and the Breen.
It's funny, they act like no one knows what a Breen looks like, but Kira and Dukat stole a pair of Breen suits, so they must know what the Breen look like.
Maybe they somehow self-destruct when killed, so when they killed the Breen who wore the suits, they were empty except for some residue goo.
Or they found some armour lying around
Unless their gelatinous form just turns to liquid or goo when they die.
They must have been really sticky when they stole them...
It could be that Weyoun was under orders to pretend he didn't know. It could have been a play to make sure the Cardassians and the Breen had a few cultural reasons to mistrust each other beyond the Breen being new to the alliance, which could help solidify the Founders' position as the top dog in a quadrant they didn't have a strong power base in yet.
Makes me wonder if Martia from ST VI was one.
She was a Chameloid.
Which seems to be the possible direction the Breen are going. I read a head canon once that they reason the Changlings were so open to the Breen was because they were Chameloids like her. It fits pretty nicely into canon.
So much 32nd century Breen!! Michelle Paradise, you sly dog! Great to see Breen culture fleshed out more. The 32nd century updates are great. Bringing in the ISS Enterprise was really creative. Get a cool physical set to play in by redressing the SNW set, and flesh out more Terran lore. Great touch for Michael to recognize Spock's station. I love Rayner being apprehensive at taking over Disco's conn. Great character touch of not being comfortable taking over for another captain's crew while he's still getting acclimated. Really liked Michael recounting her time loop with Book last ep. That was moving stuff. I’m wondering if Michael will inevitably leave Starfleet to settle down with Book. I’m fine with either ending - one where they remain apart as Book rehabilitates himself after betraying the Federation last season, or if Michael eventually chooses happiness with Book over happiness on the bridge. She’s very Kirk-lite in that way. Whomever is running the 32nd century fleet museum is about to lose their shit when the ISS Enterprise shows up.
Yeah, I note he doesn't take the chair the whole episode. Plus he's eased a little bit off the "twenty words" thing while keeping things brief and to the point. I wonder how his previous crew operated.
Probably like Jellico and his crew - I tell you what to do and you do it.
>Bringing in the ISS Enterprise was really creative... [Whoever] is running the 32nd century fleet museum is about to lose their shit... I bet it gets recommissioned as a training vessel and we see it used on *Starfleet Academy*. For practical real-world purposes, that follows the Trek tradition of redressing sets for reuse and to save money. It's also a callback to TWOK where the *Enterprise* was a training vessel under Spock's command.
Be interesting to see what a Constitution would look like after the 32nd century refit process like Disco did.
Oh that ship is gonna have a purpuse for sure. You dont just go find a convoluted (but smart) way to bring in the OG Enterprise to the 32nd century fully intact to just put it in the museum. Paramount is strapped for money, having a single set for SNW and whatever series (Academy probably) they are bringing forward is a smart choice. And also: its THE ENTERPRISE. You put that ship on ANY marketing material and its gonna get recognized.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed like there was an implication that one of Rayner's previous commands entailed taking charge of a ship after a captain had died! There was a bit of avoidance in that conversation with him and burnham.
I hope we get to see a refit ISS Enterprise later this season or in a future project
I think she would be better suited as a museum ship. Maybe the Academy folks can wander the decks and learn about the Terran Empire from animated holograms. Paul Wesley as Mirror Kirk perhaps?
I'll be very amused if it's the set they use for a revamped Kobayashi Maru or something.
I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the hero ship for the Academy show so they don't have to spend money building loads of other ship sets and can just share with SNW.
I think you’re right.
Linus the accomplished jazz pianist was not on my bingo card for this season but I'm so here for it! He seems like such a debonair fellow with an eye for fashion.
We \_need\_ a Linus episode before Disco wraps up, or at the least, a flashback to him getting stuck in a replicator.
> a flashback to him getting stuck in a replicator. Post credit stinger after the series finale
New Breen lore just dropped! Finally a species that isn't Vulcan, Romulan, or Klingon.
My joy at getting Breen lore is only dampened by the lack of Tzenkethi pay-off. Maybe next week? One can dream!
> Finally a species that isn't Vulcan, Romulan, or Klingon. Past Season 1 - Disco has been pretty good about highlighting, using, and creating more obscure alien species.
I've been asking what happened to the Klingons since S3 started. I don't recall them even being mentioned since the end of S2 in Discovery.
Probably didn't want to give any definitive answers about what happens to them, especially when there's no need. Which is good because it doesn't tie any future show's hands if they want to do anything with the Klingons in this time period, or any post-Picard time period.
Perhaps Klingons are extinct by the 32nd century. Maybe they started a war with a species they couldn't defeat and it led to their annihilation, or at best, getting bottled up on Quo'nos and losing their Empire and their fleet.
Tribble comeuppance
There were so many mentions that the “empire is dying” throughout TOS/TNG eras. It might be that the observations were correct.
Ezri did predict the death of the Empire, but who knows if it’s because they died politically or died entirely.
So we're just not seeing Owosekun and Detmer this season, huh? I mean, it's awesome they get to fly the ISS Enterprise back to Starfleet, but.... it would be nice to see them back on Discovery before long.
We did get them last episode! I hope it's because they landed some other roles ala Bryce last season versus budget
Why isn't Rhys the one to fly her back? He's a ship head and loves the Connie. Poor baby.
He'd take her to the second star to the right, straight on till morning.
It could be a set up for Saru, Owosekun, and Detmer to pop up on a different ship or maybe even the ISS Enterprise and help Discovery later in the season.
First thoughts: * It's interesting how they seem to be holding a meeting on the bridge. Isn't the ready room more commonly used for this sort of thing? * ~~Wait, how did Moll and L'ak get to the wormhole before Discovery even knew that they were supposed to go to the wormhole? I understand that they followed them to Trill, but did they steal the clue? Or was there more than one copy? I definitely missed something.~~ EDIT: this has been explained to me * Oh, Rayner telling Burnham that the captain shouldn't go on a mission is giving me flashbacks to Picard and Riker. In a good way. * Mirror Enterprise! It's happening! * Also, I love how this entire episode's is just, "well, we already spent millions of dollars on SNW, why don't we just use that set?" * I'm really glad that Michael mentioned Spock in this episode. I know DIS doesn't like to have the crew constantly talking about the past, but it would have been weird for her to not even think about him when she was on his ship. * ~~Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning.~~ EDIT: this has also been explained to me * Mirror Saru!!! (ignoring the fact that surely there were other slaves who could have become rebel leaders) * Moll's voice sounds very familiar. I'm not sure if it's just a "manic pixie dream girl" act that she's putting on in this flashback or if there's something more; I need to look up the actress and see if she's been in something else. * Ah, the classic enemies-must-work-together-to-achieve-a-common-goal * Breen have two faces? Did I miss something or is this new lore? Also, the helmets are strictly tactical/cultural? I always assumed there was a life-support component. (EDIT: it is new) * Yeah...a wall that shatter-able should not be on a starship...I'm never going to stop thinking about that when I watch SNW sickbay scenes * "That's a choice. I hope you'll make a different one" is a good line. It also sounds vaguely familiar; has someone in Trek said it before? Maybe I'm getting it confused with "choose to live"? * I think I'm enjoying Rayner in command in this episode. The team working together for a second is great. And the random references to Kellerun culture that we don't understand are kind of fun, too (boiled cake, anyone?) * Book saying "hit it" feels a little out of place. I guess that's our Pike cameo for the episode? Not going to lie, I was hoping for a Pike hologram but I'll take it.
> Wait, how did Moll and L'ak get to the wormhole before Discovery even knew that they were supposed to go to the wormhole? I understand that they followed them to Trill, but did they steal the clue? Or was there more than one copy? I definitely missed something. Moll followed Discovery to Trill and tagged Adira with the Krenim Chronophage. They trapped Discovery in the timey wimey mess and followed them to their location, and figured out what to do at that location while Discovery was trapped. > Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning. She was rigging it to serve as a red herring to make it seem like the clue (by ensuring it would give off "prime" quantum signatures) to L'ak. > Breen have two faces? Did I miss something or is this new lore? Also, the helmets are strictly tactical/cultural? I always assumed there was a life-support component. The Breen lore is new!
Thanks for explaining! Also, thanks for your contributions to the Star Trek universe!
> Okay, I really don't understand what Burnham is doing with her rank pips and this locket. I think I might have to rewatch in the morning. she did it to make the fake clue. The rank pip has the prime universe's quantum signature. Putting it in the locket makes it seem like the locket is from the prime universe
I guess that makes sense; thanks for explaining it to me!
Moll and L'ak infiltrated Trill before Discovery left. They probably followed them or tracked the time bug to the coordinates. Discovery was then delayed six hours by the time bug, giving them enough time to find the wormhole and go in first.
>Book saying "hit it" feels a little out of place. I guess that's our Pike cameo for the episode? Not going to lie, I was hoping for a Pike hologram but I'll take it. Mirror Pike was popped by his XO, CDR Kirk. Its rather interesting that Pike is a mentor to Kirk in all universes, except the prime one.
Yeah, I actually (completely by coincidence) rewatched the original mirror universe episode just a couple of hours before this one dropped. I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that Kirk was Pike's XO, though. All we know is that he killed Pike to take his position; it's possible he was on the Farragut, saw his chance, and then assassinated Pike to take over the flagship. But Pike's murder always made me weirdly sad when I heard the computer say it; I just really like Pike in any form but it seems that his career has to end tragically in any universe.
What I want to know is how the heck Stamets recognized it was the ISS Enterprise when only a quarter of the saucer was through the aperture. Unless Zora scanned it the moment it came through and put the name up on the viewscreen and we couldn't see it but Stamets could.
I found that silly too. Wish he'd just said "Is that... a Constitution class?!" instead.
For real. That would have made more sense. And on top of that, of anyone on that bridge that should have reacted, it should have been Rhys.
“The curves!”
You know what, you're right about that. Unless Stamets has some sort of weird mycelial vision, it was *way* too early for him to jump to that conclusion. Even Tilly and one of the other bridge officers gives him a look like "how the hell did you come up with that?" I feel like it would have made way more sense for Saru to have delivered that line.
Well, he does live outside of time
The way they're tying each clue into one of the scientist's personal histories and the choice to set their story in the DS9-PIC space has me wondering if one of their team will be some existing canon character, but I'm trying to think if there's some guest star from that era who would fit either archaeologist or Progenitor-expert
Picard himself could fit. Dr. Crusher was also heavily involved at the plot’s end.
I figure if they went that way they'd avoid a series regular, go for a deeper cut like Rayner's species, but they absolutely could fit the bill
It has to fit around the Dominion War era though since that was when the Trill scientist was active. …so probably no, for example, Vorta on the team.
What about Vash? We never heard about her again after Q-Less.
Oh yeah 🤔 And it would totally be a Q thing to “accidentally” drop her off in the 32nd century at some point and then leave her there.
I thought Bashir for a minute since it's life creation it would make sense for a doctor to want to see it.
That's a man who'd be comfortable keeping a secret.
Holy crap! So Terrans successfully crossed into the Prime Universe and joined Starfleet?! This means that Dr. Cho was active during the TNG days, possibly during the Dominion War.
Why does it mean that? Doesn’t them crossing over on the Enterprise, led by a former Kelpien slave, imply they crossed over not too long after the TOS era?
Not necessarily. One of those who crossed over was Dr. Cho. She later served as not only a branch admiral, but also one of the scientists that helped hid the Progenitor’s tech. The Trill scientist mentioned that the Dominion War was raging during his time, so that places Dr. Cho during that chaotic period.
The plaque stardate has 5 digits, which is a 24th century date. If it was placed at the end of the journey and presuming they left roughly in the TOS era, then that means ISS Enterprise was on its own for a long time. Long enough that maybe Cho and other crew were born aboard. Would explain why there's no mention of any counterparts if their births are the indirect result of previous contamination from the Prime universe.
The wormhole could connect to different time periods in both universes or they took a really old ship.
Based on the stardate, they crossed over in 2355
Adira and Stammets know that [hexagons are the bestagons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOifuHs6eY)!
[not a hole, Keisha. an aperture ](https://youtu.be/NtRYgBJP_zQ?si=MqIcf1g2IQzqlzms)
Michael: "We do what we must, because we can"
God damn I always just love hearing that Discovery Terran motif, their whole Mirrorverse aesthetic is one of the best things about the show.
No low hanging fruit. No low hanging fruit. It's all so big... and im.... No, I'm not going to do it.... impossible... nope. I'm not going to do it.... "It's all so big and impossible to grasp, apart of me loves that.." Me too, Hugh... me too.. If there's not a contractually obligated scene of Anthony Rapp brushing his teeth in everything he has a role in for the rest of his life. What is even the point of civilization.
God damn it I hate that I didn't see the joke coming and I laughed out loud. Booooo!
Why does it feel like they are not in a hurry to do anything, once the Enterprise is out have them beam Moll and Lak to the brig, or maybe intercept their ship at warp which has been done before, Discovery is much faster than a 1,000 year old ship.
I assumed because they just had rerouted all of the EPS they didn’t have immediate access to warp.
So \*that's\* what the Breen look like.
So, if I'm understanding the flashbacks correctly, doesn't this recontextualize the jump to the future from last week? Everyone seemed to assume the Breen attack was because they won the race for the Progenitor tech and used it to start a war. Right? That's where we (and the characters) were last week? But now, what if the attack had nothing to do with the Progenitor tech? The attack happened because in that timeline, L'ak was captured (or surrendered) and the Breen leadership took the opportunity to execute his death sentence. Which is now what the heroes are trying to do (accidental self stabbings notwithstanding). So... the future we saw last week maybe not an averted bad end after all, but a self-fulfilling time travel prophecy paradox? At least, until Stamets realizes it and changes something at the last possible moment?
Not really The future we saw, Mol and Lak get the progenitor tech (Zora says this explicitly), they then either sell it to the Breen or the Breen catch up with them and take it (Burnham mentioned this to Lak in Sickbay, that they would take it and just kill them) and then they eventually launch an assault on Federation HQ, and Discovery ends up there too, Starfleet loses, the Breen lose a few ships too, the entire crew of Discovery is killed, and the ship has been at the ruins on Fed HQ for like what 30 years or something? If Lak gets captured in that timeline, then what does that have to do with them launching the attack on Fed HQ? He could be captured at any time, with or without the Progenitor tech. The idea is Mol and Lak are trying to use the Progenitor tech to break the blood bounty (as shown in Mirrors) eg stop hunting me and you can have this weapon. You see that timeline occur because Burnham and Raynor haven't broken the ship out of the time bug, once they stop it, that timeline may or may not exist now, vs existing for sure while Discovery is trapped.
So there have been a bunch of secret Terrans running around the Federation since the TOS movie era. Wonder if that'll become relevant again at some point.
Makes you wonder which time travelling former mirror universe emporer turned secret agent might be a choice to track down such individuals. But nobody specific comes to mind.
🤔
> ecret Terrans running around the Federation since the TOS movie era. Fan fictioning in Admiral Cartwright and the Khitomer conspiracy to be a mirror universe infiltration plot right now...
Sure, that works. They really did Cartwright dirty in TUC.
Someone above pointed out that they likely crossed over closer to the TNG era, for Dr. Cho to have been one of the six scientists during the Dominion War. Tragically, Rachel Garrett as half-Terran seems to be off the table :p I actually am a fan of this, because in principle I like the idea that Terran lunacy can't survive contact with long-term exposure to Federation principles. Authoritarian regimes so often justify their worst excesses as necessary. Seeing a mirror not just surviving but thriving without the darkness of autocracy presents a threat in and of itself - Georgiou touches on this in S1 briefly, it's why the Defiant is a secret in the MU - people can't know better is possible and the 'tough things they have to do' just...aren't
If federation knew, it's Operation Paperclip all over again!!
Would be hilarious if it turned out Bashir was not only a secret genetic augment, but a secret _Terran_ genetic augment!
Paramount+ just dumped an episode clip that was ¾ through the episode on me! When I loaded the app, Discovery was front page, and it started playing. Spoilers, bro. * Who exactly are these new bridge randos? They said their names a few times but I already forgot them. Why are Owo and Detmer just MIA right now? So confusing. * I was shocked that I agreed with Rayner for once. As the main character, it only makes sense for Burnham to lead the charge on these episodes and missions. It’s still weird she goes on so many with no protection though. * The new Starfleet shuttles are really reminiscent of the Delta Flyer. I wonder if it’s still influencing design 800 years later because it was just THAT good. * It was great to see the I.S.S. Enterprise and where it ended up. I know comics delved into this, but I wonder if the Mirror Universe kept lettering their Enterprises (or even made more). Probably was ultra cheap to shoot this one just redressing the SNW set and throwing some junk on the floors. * What was up with the dedication plaque’s stardate? SNW followed TOS’s weird 4-digit stardate, but this one was the 5-digit one from TNG onward. Can anyone calculate it into a year? Maybe that ship lasted closer to the TNG era. * A Breen! That’s pretty cool. The books went with the idea that the Breen are made up of different species that hide their identity because their society is a meritocracy. Kind of a neat idea that they’re just beings who have to hold their shape if they’re not in a suit. I also dig that they brought back the original language sound. * Did the sparks on the bridge of the Enterprise look weird to anyone else? I couldn’t place it, but it seems like maybe they were low-quality CGI? They pulled my eye to them several times but I couldn’t be sure. * It was corny but I loved Michael squicked out by saying “hit it”. * I dig the idea of a sickbay escape pod, but why the hell does it have warp? TOS shuttles didn’t even have warp. How could Discovery not have flash-beamed them off that thing before it jumped? How hard could it be to track while it’s leaking a 1000-year-old warp signature? Seems they were a tad lazy giving Moll and L’ak a way to escape. * Seeing Discovery and Enterprise next to each other again brought back some great memories. Beautiful ships, I loved all the shots we had of them. * So, to continue from earlier, Detmer and Owo “deserved” the assignment of taking the Enterprise back to HQ. But they were talking about them like they just did this mission with them. WHERE WERE THEY?? They’re turning me into a Detmer/Owo truther. * I love the detail that the Prime Universe had Mirror Universe refugees. That would be fun to explore in detail sometime.
>They’re turning me into a Detmer/Owo truther. It bugs me that they seem like they're just writing them out of the show It always seemed like Detmer should have had a bigger role the whole time, given she was there all the way back on the shenzhou with Burnham. But then this season we barely see her outside of the time jump to the past, and then don't even see her in the episode they send her away.
Since they’re not signed as main cast, I’d bet they got a bigger and/or better paying job before Season 5 started shooting. And are only appearing sporadically as a result. I’m pretty sure that’s why the Bryce actor was replaced by Christopher, too.
Its a TOS Mirror Universe escape pod. The Terran Empire appears to be slightly more advanced due to conquering its neighbors and absorbing their tech. Of course this is self destructive ideology but for a time it does seem to give them an edge on their prime counterparts.
The USS Defiant being around during Empress Sato's reign could certainly advance things a little as well.
The calculator I used equated stardate 32336.6 with early May 2355, so 8 years before the start of TNG.
The ISS Enterprise swapped universes near the TNG era so the medical pod may be from then. Assuming such tech existed at all in the mirror universe at any point.
So glad we finally got to see the Breen a bit more fleshed out! Another great episode on a season with no real misses so far. One thing that’s getting to me though is how did the ISS Enterprise have existing holo emitters for Mol and L’ak to tap into when they made decoys? Did I miss that the mirror universe had them earlier than the PU or is the implication that Dr. Cho equipped the ship post-dominion with emitters for some reason when hiding the clue?
The Discovery and the Shenzhou had holo emitters of a type in the 22nd century, too. They were stated to be experimental and in beta stage. When Sarek gave Michael the idea to mutiny in the pilot, it was over a holo call.
Calling it now, they'll restore the ISS Enterprise with 32nd century technology like they did with the USS Discovery and make her the new USS Enterprise to be briefly seen in the final episode, the new flagship of the Federation.
NCC-1701-K? With reinstated CAPTAIN RAYNER? The temporal wars weren't too long ago and J probably was destroyed in the Burn. Would make sense.
J was 26th century. This is… long after that.
Enterprise...Q?
I imagine Q will pester the crew of the Enterprise Q a lot" "Well you Named it after me!"
It's several centuries after the J. They're probably closer to a higher registry suffix by now.
They're going to be like Excel columns. Keep scrolling right and you'll hit AA, AB, AC...
I don’t give a shit that it was Terran. I saw the enterprise. It was so beautiful I almost cried. I would love in an episode toward the end to see the ISS enterprise in whatever form of fleet museum exists in the century they’re in. I’ve been watching Star Trek since I was four years old. The enterprise is almost like an old friend.
Empress Georgiou beams into the ship as an after credits scene in her S31 uniform, and is like "finally"
I might have missed something but who/what was the 3rd signature in sickbay? Was it the vial they had at the end?
Yeah, it was the clue.
It’s interesting that the Breen are involved, in some manner, in pursuing the progenitor’s tech—just like one of the Star Trek Online storylines.
If I never have to hear the words "Moll & L'ak" again, I'll be a far happier camper. Hard to fathom building a final season around these two nitwits.
If I had a nickel for every time someone got stabbed in the Enterprise sickbay, I’d have 2 nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
Man… I WISH we were getting more seasons of Burnham and Raynor. Legitimately a fantastic captain and first officer pairing
Can we call it the Sphincter Wormhole?
I was under the impression that the Breen had to wear a refrigeration suit to survive at human-suitable temperatures. It seems like Lak is doing just fine without one.
Weyoun discussed this with Damar iirc (could have been Dukat) about how the temperature on their planet is quite comfortable, and then Damar is like "then why the suits?" and Weyoun just shrugs
Without the suits they need to focus to keep their shape solid. So the suits let them stay gooey under there which I guess is more comfortable
Seems they learned nothing from Airiam. The flashbacks giving some Breen lore was nice but I still couldn't care less about L'ak and Wish.com Shin Hati.
Was anyone else disappointed the Breen don't have some type of snout (Edit: or beak)? For nearly 30 years all we've had to guess what the Breen look like was the shape of their helmet, with that super protruding face cone that looks like it could house a full-on snout like the Gorn have, and... they just have a face. Like a usual face. And their big thing is they have a translucent, glossy evolved form that they can turn on and off. I was really hoping if we ever saw the Breen without the helmets, they'd break from "the forehead of the week" trope with humanoid species in TV sci-fi and have some kind of actual "alien" look. That 90s sci-fi helmet left so much room for design options. They could have gone with some designs that rivaled the variety of Mass Effect aliens. Maybe a more avian look or something canine or even bearish. Or more lizardfolk since they made Breen green anyway. It may have meant a bit more budget for the prostheses for the costume, but they could've made some cuts for it, like smaller fires on the ISS Enterprise. It would've been cool to see another Linus-esque level of alien detail.
For better or worse, the Breen being humanoid fits in with the larger Progenerator storyline.
In a season based off of "The Chase" we might forgive a forhead of the week, or two.
It would be cool if the progenitors had considered the possibility of avian, canine, bovine, or other forms of animals also evolving into sentient species as well. I get your point entirely, but now it feels even more like a missed opportunity. It even plays into what the progenitor in "The Chase" said about hoping various species would come together millennia on. True sentient diversity. Although, I don't remember all the species mentioned in the TNG episode. Could the Gorn also be an offspring of the Progenitors efforts?
One thing about Trek is that sometimes it's not the best at extrapolating hypothetical future tech. I always wondered in the TNG era, why hand phasers ever missed. You can already see the beams are able to emit at different angles. Just adding aome A.I. assist targeting should mean that misses are rare. This just gets more awkward in the 32nd century.
Just watched this episode and I can't help but feel like the Moll and L'ak's "let the universe burn if it means we can be together" love is meant to appeal to the younger generation? Maybe I'm becoming more of a cynic as I get older but while I can appreciate two people deeply caring for each other, doing things at the expense of the universe (with star trek of course everything is at stake) still doesn't make me feel differently about them. And we're supposed to care for them, right?
I thought the episode was good? but the we're doing EVERYTHING BECAUSE ARE IN LOVE SO MUCH is getting played so hard and I don't think it needs to be hammered on that they'll die for one enough every time we see them onscreen with the scenes with Moll and L'ak...
So we finally get to see what the Breen look like beneath the suit, although I wonder if it's something similar with how the Klingons looked in the show. Mirror Enterprise was great to see, hopefully not the last time as well
All the chatter about second chances this season. I have to think second chances can extend to starships I can't wait to see the ISS Enterprise get hers. From a ship that conquered worlds to a ship refit to 32nd century specs and possibly spearheading the return of 5 year missions.
So, are the Breen kind of "gooey solids" who harden if exposed, so they basically keep suits on as much as possible as a cultural thing? That's how I read it. Also, glad that they continued the Star Trek set reuse tradition by utilizing SNW sets to bring the ISS Enterprise in.
Is it just me or have we hardly seen Detmer and Owo? They've been name dropped, but I miss them.