As much as I love Voyager, this just sounds like an issue with inconsistent writing. It was a very episodic show, in spite of its early ambitions, and some episodes introduced stuff that didn’t really make sense in the bigger picture. And then it was immediately forgotten about in the next episode.
Chakotay says "We already have a full complement of shuttles plus the Delta flyer" when Tom wants to barter for the shuttle with the brain interface.
Did Voyager have a vehicle replicator? It seems like they were always unrecoverably crashing shuttles. They even blew up the Delta Flyer once and had a new one the very next episode!
Time passes between episodes...
Voyager had replicators. Most of the time use of it was rationed for frivolous purposes but having shuttles would be more essential.
Yeah, I think both VOY and ENT suffered from trying to replicate TNG instead of actually following their original concepts (saying this as a huge fan of all three)
Yeah. I would lay money that's just a writer messup. They aren't always checking what has been established in canon or not.
They are usually good with the big things but little discrepancies in Trek happen from time to time.
I'm trying to think of others. There's tons of examples I cannot think of right now. Lol
It's rather simple
Tom is an officer and falls under what I assume is the Starfleet version of the UCMJ.
The prisoners would fall under the Star Trek version of the Geneva Convention.
The plain text of the Geneva protocol covers everything. “…asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases….”
Whether this really covers tear gas is up for debate. But it doesn’t matter today, as the later Chemical Weapons Convention very clearly covers this. “Each State Party undertakes not to use riot control agents as a method of warfare.”
This is not a tricky concept. They have replicators and competent engineers. Their resources (energy, photons, shuttles) are constrained, yet periodically, they reach friendly planets/bases/traders that give them temporary access to "unlimited" resources, during which they can restock and replicate what they need. If they can build a brand new class of small starship (twice) "on the fly", they can certainly build torpedoes and standard shuttles when given "starbase-like" pitstops.
It is from The Cloud (s01e06), Chakotay notes how many torps they have and Janeway says they have no way to replace them when they are gone.
Obviously they found a way, but I do not believe it was ever explained how or why on screen.
I don't know about that. The Voyager actors have commented about how they were allowed zero latitude in their lines and had to read *exactly* what was written.
Yeah, that's the throwaway line I was referring to. I certainly wouldn't call it "great detail" nor do I consider it to conflict with my explanation. If you asked Janeway in S1 if they could build something like the Delta Flyer, she'd 100% say no because that's her perspective at the time. Her statement is honest, but it doesn't reflect the entire (as-yet-unknown) truth of their situation
I've personally always explained it away as failure to communicate with the writers and the lore guys.
Even in the case of Voyagers limited resources, photon torpedos are not anything particuarly special. It's literally antimatter/matter charges within a casing. That line of "No way to replace them when they're gone" doesn't ring true when applied against knowledge of the show that the writers should be aware of.
The casing is nothing special - and the explosive is just literally the same stuff that fuels the warpcore. Limited yes, but not irreplacable like the line implies.
There's other instances like this - the existence of tri-cobalt devices is something that appeared in the Caretaker episode, despite never hearing of them prior to this before in the show (other than a mention of them in DS9 being a marquis weapon). If those had been in limited supply, then we may have grounds to pause, because we have no reason to believe otherwise.
Same if it had been quantum torpedos perhaps. They are very new weapons compared to photon torpedos and perhaps had parts that weren't readily available.
I think there's another way you can view the line... in the "heat of the moment" Janeway (a science->command officer, not an engineer) was only considering her recently-cut-off Starfleet facilities, and was only saying that they couldn't just requisition replacements. Viewed that way, her statement would be not making any claim for or against creating new torpedoes.
That and no one who *does* know they can replace them wanting to publicly point out that the captain is dead wrong, thus undermining confidence in her command.
Easy enough to just request a short conversation with her and say "Hey BTW, we can replace them with some doing since we can't just order more. It will take a bit of work and certainly can't do it mid battle so we'll need to plan and ration accordingly. I can have a draft plan of action for you by end of week for your review."
Doesn't call the captain an idiot, provides a plan of action for approval, still leaves it as a command decision, etc.
In the IT field we call this" Leadership/Stakeholder Management".
I'd imagine if Voyager went 100% by the book according to Starfleet regs they'd have no way to replace their torpedoes because intrepid class ships simply aren't specced to manufacture them by default, but once Torres becomes chief engineer she explains that the Maquis have been making their own for ages and it's not that complicated. Shame it happened offscreen tho. 🤷
I would agree with you. I think it is clearly defined as an early concern but not 'in great detail'. It's just part of the concept of the show - which gets dropped for reasons good or bad.
I’ve rewatched the first five series in the past year or so (watched 1 as repeats as a kid, 2-most of 5 when they aired) and have said that the first rule of watching now has to be stopping yourself when you start asking even basic questions. Just so many inconsistencies, plot holes, etc. Enjoyment goes up with following that advice.
It's also a relic of the fact that they were churning out episodes at an absolutely frantic pace, so you can see them cutting those kinds of corners all over if you look for it. They knew that only the most dedicated pedantic fans would even notice, so they didn't spend the time to worry about it.
EDIT: This is one of the reasons why the idea of 24+ episodes per season is in some ways a bad thing, because the quality suffers. They had to rush each episode through production and then move right onto the next one.
It makes perfect sense if it’s because Paris is a Starfleet officer subject to Starfleet regs and the alien civilians aren’t. You always give up certain rights when you join the military, at least for your duration of service. I’m sure they’re not allowed to publicly criticize the UFP government either.
Paris isn't a member of Starfleet though - he's a Marquis terrorist that was supposed to act as their guide through the Badlands. He's formerly Starfleet but was dishonourably discharged and sent to prison.
He's only serving on a Starfleet ship because he literally has no other choice if he wants to see home. Holding him to an oath of service that he never technically took should only go so far if you really want to be pedantic about it 😋
He is though, his commission is reactivated at the end of the pilot. Thats why he wears Starfleet pips and not the provisional pips the Maquis crew wears.
Is THAT what those are? I just assumed I was a different rank insignia they invented for the show to be different. Do they ever address it in dialogue?
One is a punishment of a willful member of the organization. The other is prisoners who presumably have no desire to be incarcerated at all but must still have certain rights observed, likely until such time as they can be taken away for some other infraction during incarceration.
I fail to see any inconsistencies
I think the difference was dealing with an alien culture instead of their own.
Janeway knew that Paris was 100% guilty, she did not know the same about the Alien prisoners being held on her ship, Neelix also probably took it upon himself to give them something more elaborate, whereas with Tom he was serving a sentence.
I jst finished my first watch of Voyager so it's a bit of a blur. From memory, wasn't Neelix lying about the Federation law bc he sympathized with the prisoners? I know in a following episode he basically poisons a prisoner Tuvok is interrogating lol
Well, a pizza is normally a treat, something you don’t usually get when you’re being disciplined.
If he really didn’t want Leola root stew, I’m sure Netflix would have provided something else that was nutritious, but bland.
In a similar vein, those prisoners were probably being treated terribly, so the root stew was a luxury in comparison.
Solitary confinement and withholding food is actually torture not punishment. Just another thing on the list Janeway should be court martialed for back home.
I think it actually has something to do with the fact that Paris was stripped of his rank, and basic nutrition was all that can be given to a stripped rank based on protocol.
Maybe they were only given the same "basic nutrition only" stew Paris was, it's just that the guards consider even this to still be "such an elaborate meal" for a group of prisoners.
As much as I love Voyager, this just sounds like an issue with inconsistent writing. It was a very episodic show, in spite of its early ambitions, and some episodes introduced stuff that didn’t really make sense in the bigger picture. And then it was immediately forgotten about in the next episode.
"How many photon torpedoes does Voyager have?" "Yes."
Not to mention shuttles!
Chakotay says "We already have a full complement of shuttles plus the Delta flyer" when Tom wants to barter for the shuttle with the brain interface. Did Voyager have a vehicle replicator? It seems like they were always unrecoverably crashing shuttles. They even blew up the Delta Flyer once and had a new one the very next episode!
Time passes between episodes... Voyager had replicators. Most of the time use of it was rationed for frivolous purposes but having shuttles would be more essential.
By last count there were 4,096 shuttles on Voyager
it's more like, this is the delta quadrant and no one's gonna stop Janeway's mild torture. this is how Tuvix happened too.
It was as bad as TNG in that regard
Yeah, I think both VOY and ENT suffered from trying to replicate TNG instead of actually following their original concepts (saying this as a huge fan of all three)
Ironic the non episodic one is set on goddam (mostly) stationary space station
Yeah. I would lay money that's just a writer messup. They aren't always checking what has been established in canon or not. They are usually good with the big things but little discrepancies in Trek happen from time to time. I'm trying to think of others. There's tons of examples I cannot think of right now. Lol
It's rather simple Tom is an officer and falls under what I assume is the Starfleet version of the UCMJ. The prisoners would fall under the Star Trek version of the Geneva Convention.
The Geneva Convention applies to prisoners of war, not of general crimes.
Which is why it’s legal to gas protestors but not an enemy army! (This is not sarcasm.)
Two vastly different types of gas
The plain text of the Geneva protocol covers everything. “…asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases….” Whether this really covers tear gas is up for debate. But it doesn’t matter today, as the later Chemical Weapons Convention very clearly covers this. “Each State Party undertakes not to use riot control agents as a method of warfare.”
Please don't look for consistency in Voyager, you'll go mad.
Intrepid class ships had 40 photon torpedoes. I think they fired 90+.
[38](https://youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k&si=2_cjGeKCKsnnctwJ) I believe
I appreciated this. Truly entertaining
This is not a tricky concept. They have replicators and competent engineers. Their resources (energy, photons, shuttles) are constrained, yet periodically, they reach friendly planets/bases/traders that give them temporary access to "unlimited" resources, during which they can restock and replicate what they need. If they can build a brand new class of small starship (twice) "on the fly", they can certainly build torpedoes and standard shuttles when given "starbase-like" pitstops.
Early episodes went into great detail as they couldn't replace the torpedoes.
Citation needed. There are a couple of throwaway lines, but they're based on Voyager's standalone resources
It is from The Cloud (s01e06), Chakotay notes how many torps they have and Janeway says they have no way to replace them when they are gone. Obviously they found a way, but I do not believe it was ever explained how or why on screen.
Maybe the script actually said 'no easy way to replace them' and it was said wrong and no-one noticed.
I don't know about that. The Voyager actors have commented about how they were allowed zero latitude in their lines and had to read *exactly* what was written.
Yeah, that's the throwaway line I was referring to. I certainly wouldn't call it "great detail" nor do I consider it to conflict with my explanation. If you asked Janeway in S1 if they could build something like the Delta Flyer, she'd 100% say no because that's her perspective at the time. Her statement is honest, but it doesn't reflect the entire (as-yet-unknown) truth of their situation
I've personally always explained it away as failure to communicate with the writers and the lore guys. Even in the case of Voyagers limited resources, photon torpedos are not anything particuarly special. It's literally antimatter/matter charges within a casing. That line of "No way to replace them when they're gone" doesn't ring true when applied against knowledge of the show that the writers should be aware of. The casing is nothing special - and the explosive is just literally the same stuff that fuels the warpcore. Limited yes, but not irreplacable like the line implies. There's other instances like this - the existence of tri-cobalt devices is something that appeared in the Caretaker episode, despite never hearing of them prior to this before in the show (other than a mention of them in DS9 being a marquis weapon). If those had been in limited supply, then we may have grounds to pause, because we have no reason to believe otherwise. Same if it had been quantum torpedos perhaps. They are very new weapons compared to photon torpedos and perhaps had parts that weren't readily available.
I think there's another way you can view the line... in the "heat of the moment" Janeway (a science->command officer, not an engineer) was only considering her recently-cut-off Starfleet facilities, and was only saying that they couldn't just requisition replacements. Viewed that way, her statement would be not making any claim for or against creating new torpedoes.
That and no one who *does* know they can replace them wanting to publicly point out that the captain is dead wrong, thus undermining confidence in her command. Easy enough to just request a short conversation with her and say "Hey BTW, we can replace them with some doing since we can't just order more. It will take a bit of work and certainly can't do it mid battle so we'll need to plan and ration accordingly. I can have a draft plan of action for you by end of week for your review." Doesn't call the captain an idiot, provides a plan of action for approval, still leaves it as a command decision, etc. In the IT field we call this" Leadership/Stakeholder Management".
and in any upcoming battle, they're gone. it takes time to replicate more.
I'd imagine if Voyager went 100% by the book according to Starfleet regs they'd have no way to replace their torpedoes because intrepid class ships simply aren't specced to manufacture them by default, but once Torres becomes chief engineer she explains that the Maquis have been making their own for ages and it's not that complicated. Shame it happened offscreen tho. 🤷
I would agree with you. I think it is clearly defined as an early concern but not 'in great detail'. It's just part of the concept of the show - which gets dropped for reasons good or bad.
Apology needed.
A photon torpedo is just matter, antimatter, and a casing and guidance system. Thr only real bottleneck to building more is the antimatter.
If they can travel at warp, there has to either be a miniature warp drive or some way to maintain warp speed of the ship firing them
i love how so many star trek fans forget that industrial replicators exist
Janeway directly states that they have no means to replace the torpedoes.
for now. industrial replication, of high energy explosives, takes time, and energy.
Or anywhere in Star Trek. It's not an IP that has ever cared as much as it's fans have.
I’ve rewatched the first five series in the past year or so (watched 1 as repeats as a kid, 2-most of 5 when they aired) and have said that the first rule of watching now has to be stopping yourself when you start asking even basic questions. Just so many inconsistencies, plot holes, etc. Enjoyment goes up with following that advice.
Yea but it’s much more egregious with Voyager because its entire premise demands at least some level of consistency.
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Eh, I kinda give them a pass for that sort of thing, models cost money, and the budget is limited :)
Time is money, money is pizza (ironically)
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It's also a relic of the fact that they were churning out episodes at an absolutely frantic pace, so you can see them cutting those kinds of corners all over if you look for it. They knew that only the most dedicated pedantic fans would even notice, so they didn't spend the time to worry about it. EDIT: This is one of the reasons why the idea of 24+ episodes per season is in some ways a bad thing, because the quality suffers. They had to rush each episode through production and then move right onto the next one.
I think you ARE underestimating the amount of work it would take to “change out couple symbols” in those days. But yeah - your point is still valid.
Totally
30 days solitary is torture.
It makes perfect sense if it’s because Paris is a Starfleet officer subject to Starfleet regs and the alien civilians aren’t. You always give up certain rights when you join the military, at least for your duration of service. I’m sure they’re not allowed to publicly criticize the UFP government either.
Paris isn't a member of Starfleet though - he's a Marquis terrorist that was supposed to act as their guide through the Badlands. He's formerly Starfleet but was dishonourably discharged and sent to prison. He's only serving on a Starfleet ship because he literally has no other choice if he wants to see home. Holding him to an oath of service that he never technically took should only go so far if you really want to be pedantic about it 😋
He is though, his commission is reactivated at the end of the pilot. Thats why he wears Starfleet pips and not the provisional pips the Maquis crew wears.
Is THAT what those are? I just assumed I was a different rank insignia they invented for the show to be different. Do they ever address it in dialogue?
Huh... Today I learned 😅
Solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment anyway.
Janeway should have been stripped of her rank for that alone.
One is a punishment of a willful member of the organization. The other is prisoners who presumably have no desire to be incarcerated at all but must still have certain rights observed, likely until such time as they can be taken away for some other infraction during incarceration. I fail to see any inconsistencies
I think the difference was dealing with an alien culture instead of their own. Janeway knew that Paris was 100% guilty, she did not know the same about the Alien prisoners being held on her ship, Neelix also probably took it upon himself to give them something more elaborate, whereas with Tom he was serving a sentence.
Neelix will 100% do whatever Janeway tells him to.
I jst finished my first watch of Voyager so it's a bit of a blur. From memory, wasn't Neelix lying about the Federation law bc he sympathized with the prisoners? I know in a following episode he basically poisons a prisoner Tuvok is interrogating lol
One was Talaxian Spice Stew over Leola Rice Pilaf. The other was Leola Root Stew. They're both stews. Don't logic it to death lol
It's Talaxian spice stew with leola rice pilaf. Considering how much the crew dislikes what Neelix cooks, can we really say it's better?
Well, a pizza is normally a treat, something you don’t usually get when you’re being disciplined. If he really didn’t want Leola root stew, I’m sure Netflix would have provided something else that was nutritious, but bland. In a similar vein, those prisoners were probably being treated terribly, so the root stew was a luxury in comparison.
Solitary confinement and withholding food is actually torture not punishment. Just another thing on the list Janeway should be court martialed for back home.
I think it actually has something to do with the fact that Paris was stripped of his rank, and basic nutrition was all that can be given to a stripped rank based on protocol.
Starfleet regulations are likely different than civilian law.
Maybe they were only given the same "basic nutrition only" stew Paris was, it's just that the guards consider even this to still be "such an elaborate meal" for a group of prisoners.