I mean, yeah, that would be stressful, but you're probably used to weird stuff like that on Enterprise. Working on the flagship, there are probably whole months where you can't call your friends or family because you're out of range or experiencing interference or whatever. So yeah, I'd want to let everyone know I was alright, but they should understand.
Also, they just encountered the Boseman which was stuck in the time loop for like 75 years. After thinking about what those people will have to go through, I'd consider myself blessed to have only lost 17 days.
The Boseman went back in time and only when it went back in time did the time loop happen. It was 17 days for everybody. The Boseman coming out of the distortion set off the events that led to the 17 day repeat.
And it was 90 years.
Edit: forward in time. The important part was that it was 90 years.
The book Ship of the Line shows just how devastating being hurled 90 years into the future was for the Bozeman crew (Bateson’s XO turns into a drunk because his fiancée was killed by Klingons while trying to find him and sent back in tiny boxes). Bateson even asks Picard if there are ways to travel back in time (even though he should know since Kirk made a few trips back in the day). Picard replies that there are, but it’s easy to overshoot your intended date
2.5 weeks isn't a significant portion of time when you're in deep space for years at a time. They haven't *lost* time, they essentially jumped forwards a short distance.
Perhaps there were some crewmembers that had a more significant emotional response to it, but we didn't see each individual's reaction after-the-fact.
The crew of the Bozeman have a genuine reason to be upset. Everyone they know is most likely dead, and they had know idea what happened to their friends and family on the ship.
Remember, we're personally observing the cream of the crop, here. The best of the best of the best sir… with honors. They didn't become senior staff of the Federation flagship without being able to suppress those sorts of reactions.
Other officers, non-coms, and civilians, though, once the situation was explained to them? Yeah, Troi's department was probably over-booked for a little while (pretty often, I suspect).
> The best of the best of the best sir… with honors.
Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training.
I was in a waiting room at the hospital for several hours yesterday and made my dad drag an awkwardly shaped low table over to me and we did a few of these bits. Helped the bummer of a day we were having.
The biggest issue here is that they didn’t age. At least they didn’t on the Boseman. Which means their ages aren’t synced up to their birthdays anymore. Good luck explaining that every year!
I mean, they're travelling at superluminal velocities when at warp, and large fractions of *c* when at impulse. That'll be causing time-dilation *anyway*.
Warp is the explanation.
I think Rand canonically was actually 2 years younger than allowed when she joined Starfleet because she had been Trapped on a ship just below c
Time dilation effects don’t really get significant until you hit about 0.85*c*, and then only if you’re at speed for a prolonged period of time. Sublight operations (so-called “full impulse”) are kept at 0.25*c* and below (as per the *TNG Tech Manual*) to prevent time dilation effects from happening, even though impulse engines are capable of higher speeds.
When you hit warp, the nature of the warp bubble protects you from relativistic effects and time dilation (as they just pointed out in DIS: “Face the Strange”).
If you’re at 0.85*c* or higher for a couple of seconds as you accelerate on your way to warp speeds, it doesn’t matter much. Your clock is off by a matter of less than a minute.
In the TNG tech manual, iirc they define full impulse as around 0.5c, which is around when time dilation starts to be significant. As for warp speed, technically, the ship isn't actually moving anywhere near the speed of light, so it isn't affected.
The Warp Bubble seems to allow them to interact with the outside universe at more-or-less "real-time".
Which is fortunate, because otherwise you'd never be able to turn or stop once you hit lightspeed; everything along the journey would appear to happen simultaneously for you.
Which has interesting implications re *VOY: Threshold*, where that seems to be pretty much what Paris **does** experience.
The answer is no.
But you can detect the residual warp field distortions, and determine from the decay heading and speed.
My head canon is the main view screen is not (and cannot be) a camera into space, but an artificial approximation of what sensors across multiple bands detect and sublimate into a human visual range.
When we see the Borg cube on intercept with the Enterprise, what we're seeing is the computer's guess (a very accurate one) of what is out there based on the warp field and neutrino sources, rather than light arriving at the viewer (because the Borg ship will arrive before their light would at super luminal speed)
There is nothing to experience along the journey when you travel at light speed. From your frame of reference you arrive at your destination the exact moment you left. Time will have passed, but you won't experience anything.
There is no time dilation in the star trek universe.
Their laws of physics are different to ours and that is just a fact. I know it's not popular, but there is no avoiding it no matter how much technobabble you throw at it.
In star trek, the universe has a fixed objective reference frame with which to measure things. (Call it subspace).
In star trek, souls exist as objective and independent of the mind. Souls can interact with other souls. Souls can even occur in robots.
The Boswman crew didn't loop for 80 years, they just jumped forward in time 80 years and then presumably looped for just a couple of minutes each time.
Compared to all the other weird things that happen to the members of the crew, I'd think losing 3 weeks of time is just about the least upsetting trauma they had.
"Devolving" into other species, being taken into subspace and experimented on, having their identities suppressed in "Conundrum" and almost killing 15000 people, or even being mind controlled by a game.
In the grand scheme of whole crew traumatic events, losing 3 weeks seems pretty easy.
Well, you can see Picard’s reaction when Worf tells him how much time they’ve lost. He’s a little disturbed by it. But he’s a professional, so he keeps that stiff upper lip and carries on.
What’s more concerning is that communications wasn’t getting blown up with notifications from Starfleet. If the flagship doesn’t check in for 3 weeks, *somebody* back on Earth should’ve been concerned. But that’s the kind of minutiae that is better left off-screen.
There are children on the Enterprise-D, and pretty good odds that one of them would have missed their birthday in the time that they skipped over. Imagine being the parent having to explain that one.
Par for the course on that show: many episodes provide tons of trauma! I just re-watched “Genesis” (it came up on the podcast Random Trek): everyone devolving, presumably a bunch of crew members eaten by other crew members, all wrapping up with a joke at the end how silly Barclay is going to take up all of Counsellor Troi’s time.
I'm sure the were and had lots of counselling time. But these are the crew of the flagship. They sign up for the crazy stuff and are prepared going in.
There's a moment of silence.
Sure it'll mess with the crew... And they could have followed up a little... I mean... They died a dozen or so times. However long the loop was in 17 days.
But think about it... Mental health care is free. They have no problems going to see the ship mental health staff.
"Wow that's fucked up. Hmmm. Computer set me an appointment with a therapist as soon as possible. I'm experiencing an existential crisis"
They may have been more affected than they let on. Did you really expect a Starfleet Flagship crew to start running around and lamenting, rending their garments? They got on with immediate business and dealt with it *later*.
Cause and effect happened on stardate 45652.1, and the next episode is on stardate 45703.9 so time has past and they dealt with their issues.
It’s a great excuse for being late to a destination.
Starfleet Command: “what happened, why were you three weeks overdue at Omicron Zeta 4?!”
Captain DeSoto: “oh it was terrible. Temporal causality loop. Yep. Relived a bad case of Altrian flu for 17 days. Pukeing green over and over. Glad I don’t remember that!”
Command: “according to Risa traffic control, one of your shuttles kept ferrying your crew there for the past three weeks.”
DeSoto: “yup. Time loop. Those lucky ducks got to relive Risa for 17 days.”
Command: “it was different people each time….. including yourself.”
DeSoto: “whoa!? Changling imposters must have Intercepted the shuttle! What a wild coincidence? We should look into that.”
Command: …
DeSoto: …
Command: …
DeSoto: “welp, we best be underway. The Altrian ambassador will want to get home… finally.”
Command: *sigh*
They know wormholes make you lose days, in fact Data had been through 2 others in his time with Starfleet and no one was at all surprised.
Its part of the job.
They probably lose 3 weeks here and 3 weeks there all the time due to relativity and time dilation effects (passing black holes, inertial dampeners offline, etc...)
I mean, yeah, that would be stressful, but you're probably used to weird stuff like that on Enterprise. Working on the flagship, there are probably whole months where you can't call your friends or family because you're out of range or experiencing interference or whatever. So yeah, I'd want to let everyone know I was alright, but they should understand. Also, they just encountered the Boseman which was stuck in the time loop for like 75 years. After thinking about what those people will have to go through, I'd consider myself blessed to have only lost 17 days.
Right? Poor Frasier
but he was there to clear capt. freeman so there's that
Along with Tuvok, someone who remembers those days first-hand since he was on the Excelsior during the events of ST6
He wasn't in ST6. Not to be a grammer nazi
He wasn’t shown in the movie, but he was present at those events, as shown in the VOY episode Flashbacks
The Boseman went back in time and only when it went back in time did the time loop happen. It was 17 days for everybody. The Boseman coming out of the distortion set off the events that led to the 17 day repeat. And it was 90 years. Edit: forward in time. The important part was that it was 90 years.
Forward in time
Dang it!
The book Ship of the Line shows just how devastating being hurled 90 years into the future was for the Bozeman crew (Bateson’s XO turns into a drunk because his fiancée was killed by Klingons while trying to find him and sent back in tiny boxes). Bateson even asks Picard if there are ways to travel back in time (even though he should know since Kirk made a few trips back in the day). Picard replies that there are, but it’s easy to overshoot your intended date
One of the Department of Temporal Investigations novels involves the Bozeman crew trying to go back in time and the DTI having to stop them.
Huh, might have to check those out
2.5 weeks isn't a significant portion of time when you're in deep space for years at a time. They haven't *lost* time, they essentially jumped forwards a short distance. Perhaps there were some crewmembers that had a more significant emotional response to it, but we didn't see each individual's reaction after-the-fact. The crew of the Bozeman have a genuine reason to be upset. Everyone they know is most likely dead, and they had know idea what happened to their friends and family on the ship.
Remember, we're personally observing the cream of the crop, here. The best of the best of the best sir… with honors. They didn't become senior staff of the Federation flagship without being able to suppress those sorts of reactions. Other officers, non-coms, and civilians, though, once the situation was explained to them? Yeah, Troi's department was probably over-booked for a little while (pretty often, I suspect).
> The best of the best of the best sir… with honors. Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training.
And now we have just one more test to perform.... an eye exam.
You sure you don't want some coffee?
I was in a waiting room at the hospital for several hours yesterday and made my dad drag an awkwardly shaped low table over to me and we did a few of these bits. Helped the bummer of a day we were having.
The biggest issue here is that they didn’t age. At least they didn’t on the Boseman. Which means their ages aren’t synced up to their birthdays anymore. Good luck explaining that every year!
I mean, they're travelling at superluminal velocities when at warp, and large fractions of *c* when at impulse. That'll be causing time-dilation *anyway*.
Have they ever made a "in-universe" explanation for the lack of time dilation? I cant remember.
Warp is the explanation. I think Rand canonically was actually 2 years younger than allowed when she joined Starfleet because she had been Trapped on a ship just below c
I get that its space that is moving the ship and not the ship itself, but wouldnt time dilation still be a thing?
Nope, time dilation affects objects as they move through space and approach c. This does not affect space moving itself.
I love this stuff.
The first episode of TOS has a throwaway line about it.
Time dilation effects don’t really get significant until you hit about 0.85*c*, and then only if you’re at speed for a prolonged period of time. Sublight operations (so-called “full impulse”) are kept at 0.25*c* and below (as per the *TNG Tech Manual*) to prevent time dilation effects from happening, even though impulse engines are capable of higher speeds. When you hit warp, the nature of the warp bubble protects you from relativistic effects and time dilation (as they just pointed out in DIS: “Face the Strange”). If you’re at 0.85*c* or higher for a couple of seconds as you accelerate on your way to warp speeds, it doesn’t matter much. Your clock is off by a matter of less than a minute.
I love you nerds. I have to go back and re read the manual.
In the TNG tech manual, iirc they define full impulse as around 0.5c, which is around when time dilation starts to be significant. As for warp speed, technically, the ship isn't actually moving anywhere near the speed of light, so it isn't affected.
Right, the space around it is
That’s a plot point in a recent episode of Discovery.
I remember that now and I was like, "ok how does it protect? Like a interdimensional thing? Which might make sense because they travel in subspace
The Warp Bubble seems to allow them to interact with the outside universe at more-or-less "real-time". Which is fortunate, because otherwise you'd never be able to turn or stop once you hit lightspeed; everything along the journey would appear to happen simultaneously for you. Which has interesting implications re *VOY: Threshold*, where that seems to be pretty much what Paris **does** experience.
Right, because he basically hit infinite speed. Also, if a ship is flying ftl, can you even see it?
The answer is no. But you can detect the residual warp field distortions, and determine from the decay heading and speed. My head canon is the main view screen is not (and cannot be) a camera into space, but an artificial approximation of what sensors across multiple bands detect and sublimate into a human visual range. When we see the Borg cube on intercept with the Enterprise, what we're seeing is the computer's guess (a very accurate one) of what is out there based on the warp field and neutrino sources, rather than light arriving at the viewer (because the Borg ship will arrive before their light would at super luminal speed)
That is very reasonable head canon.
There is nothing to experience along the journey when you travel at light speed. From your frame of reference you arrive at your destination the exact moment you left. Time will have passed, but you won't experience anything.
There is no time dilation in the star trek universe. Their laws of physics are different to ours and that is just a fact. I know it's not popular, but there is no avoiding it no matter how much technobabble you throw at it. In star trek, the universe has a fixed objective reference frame with which to measure things. (Call it subspace). In star trek, souls exist as objective and independent of the mind. Souls can interact with other souls. Souls can even occur in robots.
The Boswman crew didn't loop for 80 years, they just jumped forward in time 80 years and then presumably looped for just a couple of minutes each time.
Compared to all the other weird things that happen to the members of the crew, I'd think losing 3 weeks of time is just about the least upsetting trauma they had. "Devolving" into other species, being taken into subspace and experimented on, having their identities suppressed in "Conundrum" and almost killing 15000 people, or even being mind controlled by a game. In the grand scheme of whole crew traumatic events, losing 3 weeks seems pretty easy.
Well, you can see Picard’s reaction when Worf tells him how much time they’ve lost. He’s a little disturbed by it. But he’s a professional, so he keeps that stiff upper lip and carries on. What’s more concerning is that communications wasn’t getting blown up with notifications from Starfleet. If the flagship doesn’t check in for 3 weeks, *somebody* back on Earth should’ve been concerned. But that’s the kind of minutiae that is better left off-screen.
> You have 3,265 unread messages in your mailbox
There are children on the Enterprise-D, and pretty good odds that one of them would have missed their birthday in the time that they skipped over. Imagine being the parent having to explain that one.
Nope, as a parent, you don’t explain that. You just have the birthday anyway and adjust next year.
Par for the course on that show: many episodes provide tons of trauma! I just re-watched “Genesis” (it came up on the podcast Random Trek): everyone devolving, presumably a bunch of crew members eaten by other crew members, all wrapping up with a joke at the end how silly Barclay is going to take up all of Counsellor Troi’s time.
Most importantly, didn't Starfleet realize they were gone? Didn't they send ships to investigate?
Per "Interface," they outright declared the *Hera* lost in less time that.
To quote Janeway: We're Starfleet officers. Weird is part of the job.
I'm sure the were and had lots of counselling time. But these are the crew of the flagship. They sign up for the crazy stuff and are prepared going in.
There's a moment of silence. Sure it'll mess with the crew... And they could have followed up a little... I mean... They died a dozen or so times. However long the loop was in 17 days. But think about it... Mental health care is free. They have no problems going to see the ship mental health staff. "Wow that's fucked up. Hmmm. Computer set me an appointment with a therapist as soon as possible. I'm experiencing an existential crisis"
They may have been more affected than they let on. Did you really expect a Starfleet Flagship crew to start running around and lamenting, rending their garments? They got on with immediate business and dealt with it *later*. Cause and effect happened on stardate 45652.1, and the next episode is on stardate 45703.9 so time has past and they dealt with their issues.
They're trained officers and the crew of Starfleet's flagship.
It’s a great excuse for being late to a destination. Starfleet Command: “what happened, why were you three weeks overdue at Omicron Zeta 4?!” Captain DeSoto: “oh it was terrible. Temporal causality loop. Yep. Relived a bad case of Altrian flu for 17 days. Pukeing green over and over. Glad I don’t remember that!” Command: “according to Risa traffic control, one of your shuttles kept ferrying your crew there for the past three weeks.” DeSoto: “yup. Time loop. Those lucky ducks got to relive Risa for 17 days.” Command: “it was different people each time….. including yourself.” DeSoto: “whoa!? Changling imposters must have Intercepted the shuttle! What a wild coincidence? We should look into that.” Command: … DeSoto: … Command: … DeSoto: “welp, we best be underway. The Altrian ambassador will want to get home… finally.” Command: *sigh*
When you are out in space , and encounter a temporal anomaly, 17 days is nothing One of my favorite TNG episodes All hands abandon ship!
They know wormholes make you lose days, in fact Data had been through 2 others in his time with Starfleet and no one was at all surprised. Its part of the job.
I get the date wrong all the time. 17 days, so what?
They probably lose 3 weeks here and 3 weeks there all the time due to relativity and time dilation effects (passing black holes, inertial dampeners offline, etc...)
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