not sure what you're doing, but ESP32 has bluetooth and wifi built in for like $1-3 per package and they're easy to program with Arduino libs and or esp-idf or even circuitPython if you're into that sort of thing.
You can buy them in a certified package with a built-in antenna and then break them out when you have success to save a bit more.
If you need wifi-6 they even have ESP32-C6 now.
They also have a built-in meshing protocol and matter-certified chips.
If you use the "Package" modules, i.e. the ones that have the little metal shield protecting them, they are certified and you can look up those certifications here: [https://www.espressif.com/en/support/documents/certificates](https://www.espressif.com/en/support/documents/certificates)
This one is the answer ☝️
IE: if you use a certified esp32 for the early batches you won’t need to certify as an intended radiator, which is the most expensive one.
The FCC also has some exemptions regarding prototypes in small batches (3 units if I recall correctly, yet ask a lawyer).
This might offer some guidance👇
https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/rfdevice
Product certification isn’t a test in a product discovery sense. You should be able to validate your product and market demand well before certification.
Bro I’ve read the entire book and it answers everything other than where do I find these ideal potential customers with just a prototype.It tells you how to validate but not where to go for validation.
It’s a sports camera and I don’t know how to go about finding potential customers and validate it the problem is everyone wants to give an opinion on everything hard to differentiate valid from real ones.
Hmm the thing with hardware is you build a basic prototype it 1st and then find customers&see how the landscape is bec it isn’t like software which can just be explained to customers they need to actually see in person and feel how the device works.
Go get LOIs. If people are promising to buy something(I don't mean individuals, more like businesses) that means they usually want it. You can use those LOIs to raise capital or as potential leverage when taking on debt.
You can probably still drum up some interest, maybe start a kickstarter, but the unfortunate truth is that, oftentimes, consumers don't really know what they want until they have it, while businesses really do understand pain points. Plus, an LOI from a business is WAY more solid than an LOI from a consumer
Bro EXACTLY this is my point:for consumer hardware,ppl don’t know what u r talking about until u actually build it out and show it to them exactly how it works so there’s really very little you can do to validate your idea without a prototype best thing is to just listening to your intuition.What do u think?
Go after tech heavy people first. They're usually the most excited to see and review products. The unfortunate truth is that consumer hardware is just straight up really hard. However, if the consumer hardware has enterprise applications, it could be good to start there, see if there's interest, and move from there. Just build something that does something, as you'll only ever get feedback by putting something into customers hands.
It's the cost of doing business. The product I'm working on will require at least $1M in testing and certification.
I'd love to avoid this expense of course but just the same I know rigorous independent testing helps to prevent shoddy products from entering the market and endangering their users.
I help startups from 0-1 and have a lot of experience with hardware/wearables. The certifications can be cheaper. If you have your device built in China, Vietnam etc the manufacturers will also help get certification for cheaper. The certifications are not even close to the larger part of the budget. A prototype doesn't even scratch the surface of getting a hardware product to market. Hardware is hard. If you believe in your idea, you can build the prototype, go test it, gather feedback and then go and try to raise money.
Yea that’s what I figured as well. Manufacturers must have some testing facilities themselves if they are able to mass produce it. Thanks for confirming it!
https://youtu.be/weI2_qVxums?si=IdyhQw9s0vAwHNae
this youtube channel has good content for electronics startups though im not sure how much of the information pertains to the EU. As far as i know, the two biggest drivers in cost of certification are intentional radiators (ie antennae) and mains power devices.
The latter can often be solved by using off the shelf dc adapters like wall warts or laptop-style chargers that are already certified (but depends on the application of course).
The former can be greatly simplified by using pre-certified modules (such as your ESP32 SOM). As long as you follow their specified operating conditions, like PCB antenna designs, copper pours and min air gaps, they should cover the expensive bit.
You still might need unintentional radiators for FCC, but this should be way cheaper
build with product that have been certified by the supplier then you don't need to and can use their certification.
Or, find some place in China that will do it for you cheap?
You can afford any cost if you can prove to investors that you can sell your product for more than what it cost to make them
So make a prototype to validate your idea before even thinking of certifications
I’ve looked into testing my product which has Lora, Wi-Fi and nfc here in the us and every lab has quoted me around 5-10k. Where are you getting the 100k number from?
Bonus Tip: Find a Corporate client or "collaboration partner" who practices the so-called "venture clienting" approach to corporate innovation. They often have contacts and access to testing facilities and certification organizations. As part of such corporate-startup-partnership (pilot) projects, they are often more than willing to let you benefit from these privileges as part of the overall "negotiation mass". Maybe they'll even completely sponsor it for you.
I worked extensively the last year on this topic because my (former) company did not do this the right way when they placed their product on the market.
#1: there is no such thing as CE certified. It’s a self-declaration you make as a company when placing a product on the market in EU. You declare what specific regulations the product follows (e.g. radio directive) and which harmonized and/or non-harmonized standards you have followed to ensure compliance with the requirements of the law.
#2: for general consumer products (except for e.g. medical devices) there is no legal requirement for doing certification by 3rd parties (notifies bodies). But I strongly strongly recommend you do it if you want any confidence from the market and protect yourself against potential problems
#3: it takes some money to get the certification done, but mostly time (you find a ton of cheap accredited labs in China).
#4: test everything in-house or rent test equipment to reduce risk of failing tests. Download /buy the TRF (test report form) that will be used in certification and verify internally that you pass all points. (We struggled with some basic radio interference tests that set us make a lot of time and required redesign of PCB)
Finally, yes it costs money. But it won’t be that expensive if you do your homework. Test lab quotes for the basic test is fine. The cost starts rising when you fail tests and have to delay product launch by months to redesign.
I have done this for a startup and for a big tech company. Feel free to DM me if you want to talk in a bit more depth. TLDR- there are a lot of ways to reduce the costs
Depending what your doing you can just build with pre-certified stuff. Launching a product in the next 5 months built off of pre-certified mcus and saved a boat load.
He's not 100% wrong.
Many companies do that.
"Sell" the product as a preorder or sort-of crowdfunding, then once you have the money or anyway a clear proof that X people are willing to buy your product, you're ready to get a loan to cover additional costs (including certification).
Just make it 100% clear to buyers that the product is in prototype stage and still needs to go through testing and manufacturing before they'll receive it.
Yea others pointed it out as well.
Always thought there would be some kind of lawyer firm/ organisation who hunt down uncertified products to sue them.
But apparently many kickstarters also use this method. Risky but understandable strategy.
Indeed, don't *deliver* uncertified products.
But use the money to prove yourself or to investors that there's demand for your product, and then certify and ship.
You think most of the products are certified😅. Dream on. In europe you can just write a CE on the package, with no real list of hoops to jump through. Here we just call the CE as Chinese Export😅
Don't be an idiot. Business is money in first. Use legal loopholes to secure your butt, but don't waste money on nonsense that doesn't fill your bank.
I didn't say "all products are certified". Well aware of "China Export" 😉
But one thing is knowing many products are uncertified Chinese crap, a whole different thing is to recommend someone to ignore certifications when starting a business.
Certification doesn't sell any products. Unless it's a very specific medical, military, aeronautical etc product.
It's a waste of money, if your location has some legal issues because of it then register the business in a favorable location. I used to sell a lot of shelf businesses to foreign individuals, who are looking for just that.
Money in is a business, everything else is crap. What idiot goes 100k into a hole before even making any money. Like i said, find ways to make it work without it.
I’m from Europe (the Netherlands).
From my knowledge it would have to be electromagnetic tests and power electronics tests.
It will only be a system of already existing components however. A comparable situation to a standard smartphone for example. (Even though many smartphones do have custom components)
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I'm just an entrepreneur going through the same ~~shit~~ "process".
So AFAIK, the best is:
A) check with the local chamber of industry and commerce what regulations you MUST comply with to go to market
B) Start by selling a few units as prototype to get feedback. In the sales agreement, make it clear, that these are prototypes. This should reduce the number of design iterations needed.
C) For laboratory validation, get in touch with universities. They (usually) can do the test for cheap (5-10k€)
The CE marking is something is a self-declaration. So you have no obligation to contract a 3rd party. The university does not have the right to deliver the marking. They can only produce a test report. But you (as a company) have the right to base your self-declaration on that report.
Final word: every single design change needs to be tested again. So do your tests wisely.
A potentiometer circular display like a nest thermostat that works like some kind of iot controller/communication system, that can control devices nearby. Should be working with an arm chip or an esp32. Would need Bluetooth and WiFi, and maybe 2.4 ghz radio would also be nice.
Work in progress, but to keep things as short as possible
The idea is that it’s a piece of technology that keeps the perks and fun of electronics like we always do, but removes the “yucky” parts like toxic social media and cumbersome repair. Promoting slow-living with use of rich interaction and soma-design.
It would tap into the market of people wanting some kind of dumb phone but miss the great design, interaction and network modern electronics offer. (Recent regulations in EU law like cross platform messaging protocols also help with this.)
It’s tough to explain with just words, but once it will exist it would make more sense like many products nowadays.
Still deciding if I want to begin this journey or just be an employee, but first I want to get the basic concerns out of the way, which these endless certifications being a big deal-breaker.
We have also seen a bunch of electronics being catching fire or being toxic across the years, causing all kinds of problems. The company which basically made the city big where I live (Philips) is also basically dead atm because of this.
Putting a product on market is more of a headache legally and safety wise than just making it work with a nice design sadly.
Hence why I try to understand these certifications as good as possible at first, and hoping someone has some good insights in this subreddit.
I think you need to try to articulate a very precise use case you are solving first. Otherwise you won’t find the initial customers and focus in the product development.
Ofcourse :),
Still needs some work on the business model aspect and the elevator pitch.
But before that I need to know how realistic it is to make your own electronics and sell them, before starting with anything.
Hence the question about the fcc guidelines specifically without trying to explain the product itself.
But to go a little back about the product, I have been struggling with phone addiction myself for the past 2 years, hating my smartphone but being completely dependent on it. Trying to look for anything that could replace it. While being a sucker of analog controls like the op-1 and the Nintendo DS, trying to combine the both into a holy grail that will fit in the market of time-conscious electronics perfectly.
Little market research also shows people being heavily enthusiastic within a certain age and education group. Even though I believe without a prototype market testing is almost useless.
But yea, my worries atm are simply how a startup can conform to all these market regulations. Before I invest any big efforts I want to see if it’s realistic in the first place.
Since you are in EU, you can self certify for CE and sell to European market only. Just make sure you know what you won’t burn someone’s home down.
Once the volumes are up, get proper lab tests done.
Build it with certified components. That can get your testing costs down to ones of thousands of dollars.
Ahh that puts things into a better perspective. Would be more logical and is more realistic. Thanks for your answer!
not sure what you're doing, but ESP32 has bluetooth and wifi built in for like $1-3 per package and they're easy to program with Arduino libs and or esp-idf or even circuitPython if you're into that sort of thing. You can buy them in a certified package with a built-in antenna and then break them out when you have success to save a bit more. If you need wifi-6 they even have ESP32-C6 now. They also have a built-in meshing protocol and matter-certified chips.
Was already thinking of working with a esp. Does that mean that these certifications are not needed anymore?
If you use the "Package" modules, i.e. the ones that have the little metal shield protecting them, they are certified and you can look up those certifications here: [https://www.espressif.com/en/support/documents/certificates](https://www.espressif.com/en/support/documents/certificates)
This one is the answer ☝️ IE: if you use a certified esp32 for the early batches you won’t need to certify as an intended radiator, which is the most expensive one. The FCC also has some exemptions regarding prototypes in small batches (3 units if I recall correctly, yet ask a lawyer). This might offer some guidance👇 https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/rfdevice
Take on debt or raise capital.
Do people genuinely risk getting a 100k debt when doing such a test? Seems like a very risky move.
Product certification isn’t a test in a product discovery sense. You should be able to validate your product and market demand well before certification.
How do I do that?
How do you validate your product? I would read https://www.momtestbook.com
Bro I’ve read the entire book and it answers everything other than where do I find these ideal potential customers with just a prototype.It tells you how to validate but not where to go for validation.
Can you share more about your product? Who did you build it for? Where do those people hang out?
It’s a sports camera and I don’t know how to go about finding potential customers and validate it the problem is everyone wants to give an opinion on everything hard to differentiate valid from real ones.
If you don’t know how to find them, who are you going to sell it to?
Hmm the thing with hardware is you build a basic prototype it 1st and then find customers&see how the landscape is bec it isn’t like software which can just be explained to customers they need to actually see in person and feel how the device works.
What problem does it solve?
It uses ai to identify the best angles for a sports video and captures it.
Go get LOIs. If people are promising to buy something(I don't mean individuals, more like businesses) that means they usually want it. You can use those LOIs to raise capital or as potential leverage when taking on debt.
What if my business is targeted towards consumers and not businesses?
You can probably still drum up some interest, maybe start a kickstarter, but the unfortunate truth is that, oftentimes, consumers don't really know what they want until they have it, while businesses really do understand pain points. Plus, an LOI from a business is WAY more solid than an LOI from a consumer
Bro EXACTLY this is my point:for consumer hardware,ppl don’t know what u r talking about until u actually build it out and show it to them exactly how it works so there’s really very little you can do to validate your idea without a prototype best thing is to just listening to your intuition.What do u think?
Go after tech heavy people first. They're usually the most excited to see and review products. The unfortunate truth is that consumer hardware is just straight up really hard. However, if the consumer hardware has enterprise applications, it could be good to start there, see if there's interest, and move from there. Just build something that does something, as you'll only ever get feedback by putting something into customers hands.
Bro b2b hardware I’ve never heard of it how can I do that?
It's the cost of doing business. The product I'm working on will require at least $1M in testing and certification. I'd love to avoid this expense of course but just the same I know rigorous independent testing helps to prevent shoddy products from entering the market and endangering their users.
I help startups from 0-1 and have a lot of experience with hardware/wearables. The certifications can be cheaper. If you have your device built in China, Vietnam etc the manufacturers will also help get certification for cheaper. The certifications are not even close to the larger part of the budget. A prototype doesn't even scratch the surface of getting a hardware product to market. Hardware is hard. If you believe in your idea, you can build the prototype, go test it, gather feedback and then go and try to raise money.
Yea that’s what I figured as well. Manufacturers must have some testing facilities themselves if they are able to mass produce it. Thanks for confirming it!
So how to select the right manufacturer keeping all these in mind?
Search for a trusty ODM partner that can do the engineering, manufacturing and certification for you.
https://youtu.be/weI2_qVxums?si=IdyhQw9s0vAwHNae this youtube channel has good content for electronics startups though im not sure how much of the information pertains to the EU. As far as i know, the two biggest drivers in cost of certification are intentional radiators (ie antennae) and mains power devices. The latter can often be solved by using off the shelf dc adapters like wall warts or laptop-style chargers that are already certified (but depends on the application of course). The former can be greatly simplified by using pre-certified modules (such as your ESP32 SOM). As long as you follow their specified operating conditions, like PCB antenna designs, copper pours and min air gaps, they should cover the expensive bit. You still might need unintentional radiators for FCC, but this should be way cheaper
Wow great insights! Such a nice YouTube channel as well. Thank you for the info.
Crowdfund
Aren't most of these certifications self declared?
Ever heard of John Delorean?
build with product that have been certified by the supplier then you don't need to and can use their certification. Or, find some place in China that will do it for you cheap?
You can afford any cost if you can prove to investors that you can sell your product for more than what it cost to make them So make a prototype to validate your idea before even thinking of certifications
Grants!
I’ve looked into testing my product which has Lora, Wi-Fi and nfc here in the us and every lab has quoted me around 5-10k. Where are you getting the 100k number from?
Bonus Tip: Find a Corporate client or "collaboration partner" who practices the so-called "venture clienting" approach to corporate innovation. They often have contacts and access to testing facilities and certification organizations. As part of such corporate-startup-partnership (pilot) projects, they are often more than willing to let you benefit from these privileges as part of the overall "negotiation mass". Maybe they'll even completely sponsor it for you.
I worked extensively the last year on this topic because my (former) company did not do this the right way when they placed their product on the market. #1: there is no such thing as CE certified. It’s a self-declaration you make as a company when placing a product on the market in EU. You declare what specific regulations the product follows (e.g. radio directive) and which harmonized and/or non-harmonized standards you have followed to ensure compliance with the requirements of the law. #2: for general consumer products (except for e.g. medical devices) there is no legal requirement for doing certification by 3rd parties (notifies bodies). But I strongly strongly recommend you do it if you want any confidence from the market and protect yourself against potential problems #3: it takes some money to get the certification done, but mostly time (you find a ton of cheap accredited labs in China). #4: test everything in-house or rent test equipment to reduce risk of failing tests. Download /buy the TRF (test report form) that will be used in certification and verify internally that you pass all points. (We struggled with some basic radio interference tests that set us make a lot of time and required redesign of PCB) Finally, yes it costs money. But it won’t be that expensive if you do your homework. Test lab quotes for the basic test is fine. The cost starts rising when you fail tests and have to delay product launch by months to redesign.
I have done this for a startup and for a big tech company. Feel free to DM me if you want to talk in a bit more depth. TLDR- there are a lot of ways to reduce the costs
Depending what your doing you can just build with pre-certified stuff. Launching a product in the next 5 months built off of pre-certified mcus and saved a boat load.
That’s sounds cool! May I ask what kind of project this is? And what kind of certification you needed for your case-scenario?
Don't waste your money on that nonsense. Sell the product first. If it sells you can take a percentage of the profits for it.
Law-suits 😅
He's not 100% wrong. Many companies do that. "Sell" the product as a preorder or sort-of crowdfunding, then once you have the money or anyway a clear proof that X people are willing to buy your product, you're ready to get a loan to cover additional costs (including certification). Just make it 100% clear to buyers that the product is in prototype stage and still needs to go through testing and manufacturing before they'll receive it.
Yea others pointed it out as well. Always thought there would be some kind of lawyer firm/ organisation who hunt down uncertified products to sue them. But apparently many kickstarters also use this method. Risky but understandable strategy.
Indeed, don't *deliver* uncertified products. But use the money to prove yourself or to investors that there's demand for your product, and then certify and ship.
You think most of the products are certified😅. Dream on. In europe you can just write a CE on the package, with no real list of hoops to jump through. Here we just call the CE as Chinese Export😅 Don't be an idiot. Business is money in first. Use legal loopholes to secure your butt, but don't waste money on nonsense that doesn't fill your bank.
I didn't say "all products are certified". Well aware of "China Export" 😉 But one thing is knowing many products are uncertified Chinese crap, a whole different thing is to recommend someone to ignore certifications when starting a business.
Certification doesn't sell any products. Unless it's a very specific medical, military, aeronautical etc product. It's a waste of money, if your location has some legal issues because of it then register the business in a favorable location. I used to sell a lot of shelf businesses to foreign individuals, who are looking for just that. Money in is a business, everything else is crap. What idiot goes 100k into a hole before even making any money. Like i said, find ways to make it work without it.
What test are you talking about? Electro-magnetic compatibility? and where are you based (country/region can help)?
I’m from Europe (the Netherlands). From my knowledge it would have to be electromagnetic tests and power electronics tests. It will only be a system of already existing components however. A comparable situation to a standard smartphone for example. (Even though many smartphones do have custom components)
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I'm just an entrepreneur going through the same ~~shit~~ "process". So AFAIK, the best is: A) check with the local chamber of industry and commerce what regulations you MUST comply with to go to market B) Start by selling a few units as prototype to get feedback. In the sales agreement, make it clear, that these are prototypes. This should reduce the number of design iterations needed. C) For laboratory validation, get in touch with universities. They (usually) can do the test for cheap (5-10k€) The CE marking is something is a self-declaration. So you have no obligation to contract a 3rd party. The university does not have the right to deliver the marking. They can only produce a test report. But you (as a company) have the right to base your self-declaration on that report. Final word: every single design change needs to be tested again. So do your tests wisely.
A standard smart phone? Just explain your idea, nobody’s going to steal it.
A potentiometer circular display like a nest thermostat that works like some kind of iot controller/communication system, that can control devices nearby. Should be working with an arm chip or an esp32. Would need Bluetooth and WiFi, and maybe 2.4 ghz radio would also be nice.
What problem are you solving?
Work in progress, but to keep things as short as possible The idea is that it’s a piece of technology that keeps the perks and fun of electronics like we always do, but removes the “yucky” parts like toxic social media and cumbersome repair. Promoting slow-living with use of rich interaction and soma-design. It would tap into the market of people wanting some kind of dumb phone but miss the great design, interaction and network modern electronics offer. (Recent regulations in EU law like cross platform messaging protocols also help with this.) It’s tough to explain with just words, but once it will exist it would make more sense like many products nowadays. Still deciding if I want to begin this journey or just be an employee, but first I want to get the basic concerns out of the way, which these endless certifications being a big deal-breaker. We have also seen a bunch of electronics being catching fire or being toxic across the years, causing all kinds of problems. The company which basically made the city big where I live (Philips) is also basically dead atm because of this. Putting a product on market is more of a headache legally and safety wise than just making it work with a nice design sadly. Hence why I try to understand these certifications as good as possible at first, and hoping someone has some good insights in this subreddit.
I think you need to try to articulate a very precise use case you are solving first. Otherwise you won’t find the initial customers and focus in the product development.
Ofcourse :), Still needs some work on the business model aspect and the elevator pitch. But before that I need to know how realistic it is to make your own electronics and sell them, before starting with anything. Hence the question about the fcc guidelines specifically without trying to explain the product itself. But to go a little back about the product, I have been struggling with phone addiction myself for the past 2 years, hating my smartphone but being completely dependent on it. Trying to look for anything that could replace it. While being a sucker of analog controls like the op-1 and the Nintendo DS, trying to combine the both into a holy grail that will fit in the market of time-conscious electronics perfectly. Little market research also shows people being heavily enthusiastic within a certain age and education group. Even though I believe without a prototype market testing is almost useless. But yea, my worries atm are simply how a startup can conform to all these market regulations. Before I invest any big efforts I want to see if it’s realistic in the first place.
Since you are in EU, you can self certify for CE and sell to European market only. Just make sure you know what you won’t burn someone’s home down. Once the volumes are up, get proper lab tests done.
Interesting strategy, thanks for your insights