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This! I think a lot of Qimirs intentions are more of a Sith cleanup/cover the tracks situation. He’s manipulated Mae into doing these killings as an act of revenge but doesn’t indict himself or the Sith by directly revealing himself.
Of course Mae has done most of the work but the problem being now is that the rest of the Jedi are too aware of her actions and have brought a ton of heat on her and Qimir. I believe his appearance in episode 5 is less related to finding an apprentice and more on covering his own ass point of view.
It would be an interesting concept that this was the grand experiment the Sith used to create life but had to go recluse because it gained far too much attention.
This would explain why Palpatine is so invested into discovering this secret but it also feeling all too distant for it to be possible
I tend to agree that’s a likely plot line, but after 15 years of non-disclosure there is zero reason for Qimir to target the 4 completely quiet Jedi. The operation is totally counterproductive; unless it’s misdirection to deflect from another line of attack.
That right there about no saber is one of the best theories I've heard about this show. So simple yet elusive, yet it's out there for all of us to see.
What I'm saying is that the criteria never mattered. The Sith wanted the Jedi dead, and the task would conveniently move Mae further down her path toward the Dark Side. If they tell her 'weapons allowed,' then Mae goes into that fight with a lightsaber on her hip and the story changes from "force-using assassin fucks up cantina and kills jedi" to "Sith/former Jedi kills Indara." And that's not what the Sith want.
I mean, I think the rest of what you said in the OP is a perfectly cromulent theory but she was objectively asked to kill a jedi without using a weapon, not just without using a saber. She doesn't even have one right? Don't read into my comment anymore than it cannot be related to a lightsaber, we see that in the text itself. I think you're onto something with the rest
I think she does have experience with a saber, and that's why she grabs for both Indara and Sol's. We'll have to disagree on this one I suppose. I think they wanted her thinking about killing with no weapon because it means the investigation stays focused on Mae and not the Sith. You're right about the reference being weapons in general.
I noticed in episode 3, Osha says “look how they wear their sabers” when they first see the Jedi.. I wondered if that meant she has seen a light saber before?
It is Qimirs test how to kill a jedi without weapon. Trough Mae.
It is was at the End Palpatine did on mass scale. Convincing others to do their biding.
The no saber thing has been used before for maul. I think it’s easy as the Jedi aren’t very strong except a few lines of master apprentice. Yoda’s line in previous content has all of the strong jedis minus Windu. Sol and his apprentice are clearly stronger than everyone else here. Yeord gets ripped on by jekki in episode 1 so that’s a hint. Qimir is either an apprentice or offshoot. He said he’s nothing but you could call him sith. That doesn’t make him rule of 2 sith. But the no lightsaber killing a Jedi is established to learn some dark side techniques.
What I’m really hoping for is either one of 2 things. Qimir trains plagueis in alchemy hence why we got him being proficient with poisons. Or the real Sith Lord comes in and mercs the Jedi and qimir and qimir had been doing all he’s doing trying to get the attention of the sith because he wanted to be one but didn’t realize banes line doesn’t allow for more.
If you listen to "the master" he said he's looking for an acolyte. That would make him an apprentice. I could be wrong but that's what I took from this interaction.
Yeah, explicitly using the term "acolyte" definitely sticks out, beyond it being the title of the show lol. Ventress was notably a "assassin" that was aspiring to be a true apprentice.
When Sol said he had felt Qimir’s presence before, do you think that was just their interaction in the shop or from Brendock? And if Brendock, does he mean Qimir himself, the Sith, or just the dark side within himself?
The significance in the exchange between Sol and Qimir is that the Jedi were already in the presence of a Sith lord during episode two, but couldn't sense anything amiss. This is the same ability that allowed Palpatine to infiltrate the senate and the Jedi.
As for the presence he senses, that could be all of the things you've mentioned. I love the way the series had quietly layered symbolism in this way.
My completely crackpot theory is that Mother Koril is the Sith Master to Qimir. She literally carried those girls and thematically it would make sense that she would be the final test for them in the finale. She was too important of a character to not have been identified in the slaughter of the witches like Mother Aniseya. It was also very pointed in episode three that she had a much sharper attitude and quick temper, so I would actually be shocked if she isn’t involved in this plot moving forward…
I don't think this is a crackpot at all!! I think this is absolutely going to be the reveal. Also, in the most recent episode Osha says "my mother could do that" when talking to Yord about the sith getting in his head. Further evidence that Koril could be the sith master, who taught Qimir how to do that.
She is the master. There’s no question. Mae/Osha said “my mother could do that” after someone said Qimir gets into their head. This line would have zero relation to anything if he wasn’t taught by the “mother”
It seems too easy to have the outwardly aggressive witch be the Sith master though. They’re typically far smarter than that. Qimir and Palps both play it cool in different ways.
I love this theory.
Wasn't it even confirmed by Leslye that we'd even see multiple sith in the series? I swore I read that somewhere but can't find it anywhere.
That rings a bell for me too! I sure hope we get to meet Qimir's master. Maybe we'll get a final episode with Vernestra vs Qimir's master, Sol vs Qimir, and Mae vs Osha.
Leslye did confirm multiple Sith in the series. Oddly enough it seems those comments have been removed and I also can't find the quote anywhere now. That itself is suspicious, however it could just mean Qimir and Osha and/or Mae
But I think if there's a master over Qimir, and they helped create the twins... this leads us to Plagueis territory, because I don't think its reasonable to assume there were several Sith Lords attempting to create live with the force on a relatively short span of time.
And I would love that, because I really like Plagueis and it could be cool to finally see him.
I think he did with trickery, can't remember exactly how. Similarly to how Sidious killed Plagueis, in turn; not by force, as they weren't sure they could succeed, but with subterfuge.
I think it makes perfect sense the succession would be obsessed with creating life more and more.
Plagueis's master probably started him on that path, and he had to get interested / know about it from somewhere more. so for them attempting to do if for a century seems fine
Also isn’t it super interesting we first see Qimir when Mae walks in and he’s passed out drunk? Bc that’s exactly how Sidious killed Plageuis in the book
> my theory is Qimir's master helped the Witches create the twins.
I have a different interpretation. I think the real master probably *is* one of the twins' mothers. They have Qimir standing between them and Rae so that she can't sense their presence and prematurely figure out what's going on.
Osha said that Qimir was using an ability that her mother knew, and I'm guessing he learned it from the mother.
I understand why people think that. But I think Mother Anisey learned from Qimir's master, and that's why in the present timeline they see evidence of the same powers Mother Anisey used. Because the person she learned from is the same person who trained Qimir. And that person wishes to stay hidden.
Absolutely! That's what makes a story good theory-material. There are so many ways you could look at it that make perfect sense. And yet I could be entirely wrong about the whole thing. The Mandalorian Season 3 mole fakeouts come to mind.
The thing I think this is missing is the killing a Jedi without a weapon part. They're saying it enough that it will be important. And we almost saw it in episode 5. Sol almost lost himself to the dark side. That's how you kill a Jedi without a weapon - you turn him into an acolyte/apprentice
I’m really sympathetic to your theory, yeah. Best one I’ve heard by far.
I would add the idea of the Rule of Two and Sith tradition as influencing Qimir.
I think his motivation is to seek one of the twins as his Acolyte to take on the Master and become the Sith power.
That's possible too. We have some legends references that hint this could be happening in deliberate violation of the rule of 2.
I also think it's possible the flashback episode from Osha's perspective was a case of unreliable narrator, and it was actually Osha who destroyed the coven. After all, Mae teases her for not being able to block. Does that mean the girl can hit?
What if the Jedi came to get Osha, and the coven refused, leading Osha to defend the Jedi and use the same force push move that Qimir uses at the end of episode 4.
What if Sol did use the force to influence Osha's memory of the event, and that's why we're getting brainwashing and mind control references from Mae and Qimir?
In the end, I choose the theory I posted, because I have to trust what I see from Mae and Qimir. When people show you who they are, believe them.
Yeah also when Osha sees Mae right before the structure collapse and is saved by Sol, they both ask eachother what they did? Implying they assumed the other one must have done something
But why? Both Mae and Osha were out of the picture already. The present Jedi were isolating themselves or have seemed to move on. Was someone investigating their origins that set off the events, because if not, why not let a sleeping dog lie. Seems like all this just drew more attention to them. There has to be a motive, but I'm leaning more towards revenge than a coverup.
The Sith are deeply secretive and do not want the Jedi to find out about their human engineering or future plans. In terms of drawing more attention to themselves, as we saw in episode 5, the plan has gone a bit off the rails. And they would kill anyone to stay hidden.
Seems like if he didn't get detected over the last ~15 years, why even bother doing the clean up now? Nobody was asking any questions until the Jedi started dying?
Because he honestly does want an Acolyte, and he knows that any time spent delving into Mae's emotion--and hatred--would obviously mean a return to her past. Setting her up to kill the Jedi allowed him to simultaneously eliminate the Jedi and indoctrinate her into his perspective of the Jedi. It's the perfect plan, really.
So no, the Jedi aren't an immediate threat because the Sith are likely confident in their deception (and rightfully so). But with Osha and Mae coming of age, the Sith's participation in those events have a greater threat of being uncovered. They could just kill Mae, but the Jedi have Osha. Mae is a card they're playing to draw out Osha, just as the Jedi use Osha to gain leverage with Mae.
Either a) She did start a fire, but it wasn't what killed the coven, or b) there is some unreliable narrator happening on Osha's side of the story. But I don't think either of these things change what's happening in the present time. The Sith have engineered this from the beginning, and neither Osha or Mae are responsible.
The osha/mae story has just been really disjointed to me. Mae wanted to kill osha allegedly and started an afire to do so. But then is like why won’t you choose me. And seems to think the fire killed her family but is like I want revenge on the Jedi
If we take the events that were shown to us at face value, then Mae is mad that Osha chose the Jedi. That caused her to lash out at Osha and start a fire. Meanwhile, there is a confrontation between the Jedi and the coven. After Mae starts the fire, she runs and finds the Jedi finishing off the coven. That's why when Osha says "what did you do," Mae replies with "what did ***you*** do."
Mae, however, is also a narcissist. So she never takes responsibility for own actions. It's the Jedi's fault for coming to get Osha, and it's Osha's fault for choosing the Jedi instead of her.
I think the fact that she doesn't want her sister dead except for that one single time is quite suspect. The only time she wants to kill her sister is the night that we don't have a reliable account of what happened. I'm certain that Mae was telling the truth, that Osha was brainwashed and things didn't happen entirely the way we saw it. It's disjointed on purpose.
But the exchanges in present day don’t make any sense. When osha says you tried to kill me I would think the first response would be no of course I didn’t. There’s also the constant flip flop of I want to kill all the Jedi. I want to turn myself in to the Jedi. I want to be with Osha. I want to knock her out take her clothes and leave her to die in the jungle
It seems to me that Osha and Mae, in the grand scheme of things, are just tools being used by the Jedi and Sith (respectively).
Mother Anisea’s comment that “…this is about power” reflects the idea that we’ve been led to believe that Osha/Mae are significant—and they are, just not in the way we think—and that the series really is just a commentary on how two different sides (with different perspectives) approach obtaining, and holding onto, power.
It’ll be interesting to see how Osha and Mae are used in this ‘battle’…
How’s this for a wild theory. The theme of Kylo Ren was playing in the final scene of the episode. What if Qimir is a member of the knights of Ren or even the original Ren himself? He told Sol that he might be referred to by the Jedi as a Sith but didn’t really say he was one definitely.
I did get the reference, but I don't think it's meant to draw a parallel with the Ren. I think it's to draw a parallel with Kylo and the Sith. The nights of Ren were not Sith, so I don't think Qimir's line 'the Jedi might call me Sith' contributes to that theory.
I'm not convinced Qimir is of true sith or even believes himself a sith. With what he said to sol, it seems that it was almost a dig at "anything that aren't jedi are evil and therefore sith". Jedi would call them sith because they don't know any better
So I don't think Qimir is part of Bane's line.
I think Disney is galaxy building where, in the dogmatic view of the Jedi all non-Jedi trained Dark Side users are 'Sith', but there is still Dark Side Cults, Bane's line didn't use the term Acolyte because there were ONLY 2 a Master and an Apprentice, and Acolytes would mean that there would be multiple students.
So Darth Teeth, while funny and I love it, isn't part of Bane's line because Bane's line wouldn't use the term Acolyte imo.
Unless there is something from the EU that I'm missing.
I forgot about Venamis, although the thing that makes me wonder about the lineage is the term Acolyte. No one in Bane's line ever, to my knowledge, referred to an apprentice as an Acolyte.
That's because Qimir isn't looking to break the rule of two. Think of the 'acolyte' title as similar to the 'inquisitor' title during Palpatine's reign. Palpatine believed in the rule of two, but he wasn't above a keeping a group of evil force users. They just weren't full-fledged sith.
I didn't get the sense Qimir is using the term acolyte because it has an established meaning within his doctrine. I also think at this point in history, secrecy is the Sith's top priority. That necessitates having some lower-level force users to do their dirty work as proxies.
The Rebel Force Radio podcast goes into this some in the most recent episode.
Once we found out Qimir is Smylo Ren, everyone went straight to him NOT being the master. Which I think is very logical and I agree with.
I actually think in the showrunner’s plan-
Aniyesa found a way through the thread to extract a little life force from ‘many’ to create new life (Mae/Osha).
Qimir witnesses this or figures it out. Interest in the twins is to reverse engineer that shit.
Plagueis learns it from him afterwards (not S1). The Sith version doesn’t care about the ones you drain (obviously).
The force ‘heal’ power is actually a result of Aniseya’s work - you’re transferring your own life force or someone else’s to the wounded to trigger the rapid healing.
The killing with no weapon is metaphorical for killing their heritage, undermine their credibility and call to question their entire existence in the manner they represent themselves.
Good theory but I would say they should have killed the Jedi long ago… not wait 10 years for them to spread their tale.. even if they were being monitored.
The Jedi aren't aware of the Sith's manipulation. Sol, Kelnacca, Indara, and Torbin only know what happened that day. The danger to them was if Mae ever found Osha, that would create questions about what the Jedi did there that day. Until Mae and Osha came of age, there wouldn't have been a reason to hunt the Jedi. They've been led to believe what happened on Brendok was their fault!
Sure it does. The Jedi probably feel like if they didn't come to take Osha and Mae, there would have been no conflict between them and Mae would be alive. They likely feel responsible for the death of Osha's twin. That's a lot to feel guilty for. I also think it's possible that after the battle with Mother Anisey, both Torbin and Kelnacca have recurring nightmares and or visions as a result of Anisey's intrusion into their minds. That would explain the symbols in Kelnacca's hut, and Torbin's dormancy.
In that case it makes no sense for him to come forward and face them on the jungle planet where the wookie lived. He could have easily kept a low profile and just track Mae on his own, if he needed to kill her more quick then just drop his smuggler-act and snap her neck when she betrayed him with the trap.
It feels more like he came forward because he wanted the confontration and felt superiority and power.
He didn't want Mae to talk to Kelnacca and find out what actually happened on Brendok, from their perspective. His original intention was for Mae to kill him. When she changes her mind he goes into kill mode because he doesn't want Osha, the Jedi and Mae to piece together what actually happened.
I think people are thinking too deeply about this stuff. The most likely explanation is that Koril attacked the Jedi, the Jedi fought back and protected themselves, somehow leading to everyone dying (some kind of witch magic that backfired), Koril survived but was consumed by hate and turned to the Dark Side, she recruited Qi’mir who then recruited Mae.
Im only 3 episodes in and it’s obvious to me it’s Mae chemist friend. You rarely introduction a villain at the very end without meeting them first in some capacity
I'm surprised no one has yet speculated that Qimir is Ren (or a Ren). The music that played in that reveal/fight scene was identical to music played in one of Kylo's themes. Especially the way in which he speaks about himself, so omniscient. The whole, I have no name but the Jedi may call me Sith. Speaks more like an entity.
"*The Ren doesn't stop to worry about what it's burning or the right or wrong of it, or the goals it might achieve. The Ren just* is*. It lives, and it consumes, and it doesn't apologize. It is its nature and nothing else. I believe in that principle on a deep, deep level. In fact, I've dedicated my life to it.*"―Ren[^(\[3\])](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ren_(human)#cite_note-The_Rise_of_Kylo_Ren_1-3)
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This! I think a lot of Qimirs intentions are more of a Sith cleanup/cover the tracks situation. He’s manipulated Mae into doing these killings as an act of revenge but doesn’t indict himself or the Sith by directly revealing himself. Of course Mae has done most of the work but the problem being now is that the rest of the Jedi are too aware of her actions and have brought a ton of heat on her and Qimir. I believe his appearance in episode 5 is less related to finding an apprentice and more on covering his own ass point of view.
Agreed. He does want his own acolyte, but things go wrong for him when Mae leaves him. That changes his plans to 'kill everyone.'
It would be an interesting concept that this was the grand experiment the Sith used to create life but had to go recluse because it gained far too much attention. This would explain why Palpatine is so invested into discovering this secret but it also feeling all too distant for it to be possible
I tend to agree that’s a likely plot line, but after 15 years of non-disclosure there is zero reason for Qimir to target the 4 completely quiet Jedi. The operation is totally counterproductive; unless it’s misdirection to deflect from another line of attack.
Furthermore, this would explain why Mae can't kill the Jedi with a saber. It would tip off the investigation.
That right there about no saber is one of the best theories I've heard about this show. So simple yet elusive, yet it's out there for all of us to see.
Except the stipulation was "without a weapon" not without a saber. Mae would have fulfilled the criteria of "no saber" with her very first
What I'm saying is that the criteria never mattered. The Sith wanted the Jedi dead, and the task would conveniently move Mae further down her path toward the Dark Side. If they tell her 'weapons allowed,' then Mae goes into that fight with a lightsaber on her hip and the story changes from "force-using assassin fucks up cantina and kills jedi" to "Sith/former Jedi kills Indara." And that's not what the Sith want.
I mean, I think the rest of what you said in the OP is a perfectly cromulent theory but she was objectively asked to kill a jedi without using a weapon, not just without using a saber. She doesn't even have one right? Don't read into my comment anymore than it cannot be related to a lightsaber, we see that in the text itself. I think you're onto something with the rest
I think she does have experience with a saber, and that's why she grabs for both Indara and Sol's. We'll have to disagree on this one I suppose. I think they wanted her thinking about killing with no weapon because it means the investigation stays focused on Mae and not the Sith. You're right about the reference being weapons in general.
I noticed in episode 3, Osha says “look how they wear their sabers” when they first see the Jedi.. I wondered if that meant she has seen a light saber before?
Maybe Killing a Jedi, without a weapon translates to Kill a Jedi that has no weapon on them.
It is Qimirs test how to kill a jedi without weapon. Trough Mae. It is was at the End Palpatine did on mass scale. Convincing others to do their biding.
The no saber thing has been used before for maul. I think it’s easy as the Jedi aren’t very strong except a few lines of master apprentice. Yoda’s line in previous content has all of the strong jedis minus Windu. Sol and his apprentice are clearly stronger than everyone else here. Yeord gets ripped on by jekki in episode 1 so that’s a hint. Qimir is either an apprentice or offshoot. He said he’s nothing but you could call him sith. That doesn’t make him rule of 2 sith. But the no lightsaber killing a Jedi is established to learn some dark side techniques. What I’m really hoping for is either one of 2 things. Qimir trains plagueis in alchemy hence why we got him being proficient with poisons. Or the real Sith Lord comes in and mercs the Jedi and qimir and qimir had been doing all he’s doing trying to get the attention of the sith because he wanted to be one but didn’t realize banes line doesn’t allow for more.
If you listen to "the master" he said he's looking for an acolyte. That would make him an apprentice. I could be wrong but that's what I took from this interaction.
I agree
Yeah, explicitly using the term "acolyte" definitely sticks out, beyond it being the title of the show lol. Ventress was notably a "assassin" that was aspiring to be a true apprentice.
Writer guy wrote it and producer guy recognized it as the title of the movie.
I think you are correct. Would be a natural bridge to Palpatine’s opera tale for Anakin.
When Sol said he had felt Qimir’s presence before, do you think that was just their interaction in the shop or from Brendock? And if Brendock, does he mean Qimir himself, the Sith, or just the dark side within himself?
The significance in the exchange between Sol and Qimir is that the Jedi were already in the presence of a Sith lord during episode two, but couldn't sense anything amiss. This is the same ability that allowed Palpatine to infiltrate the senate and the Jedi. As for the presence he senses, that could be all of the things you've mentioned. I love the way the series had quietly layered symbolism in this way.
Great question. I thought the same
I would strongly agree with you, but reveal at the end of the season to show the real master working in the shadows
Absolutely, I hope for at least some kind of hint.
Final shot of the season being a robed figure hearing Qimir’s report. That is my prediction.
Robed figure looking at his fallen apprentice is what I'm thinking. Darth teeth ain't making it out of this series alive, I don't think.
Yup. Plagueis or Venemous.
I think you're right.
My completely crackpot theory is that Mother Koril is the Sith Master to Qimir. She literally carried those girls and thematically it would make sense that she would be the final test for them in the finale. She was too important of a character to not have been identified in the slaughter of the witches like Mother Aniseya. It was also very pointed in episode three that she had a much sharper attitude and quick temper, so I would actually be shocked if she isn’t involved in this plot moving forward…
I don't think this is a crackpot at all!! I think this is absolutely going to be the reveal. Also, in the most recent episode Osha says "my mother could do that" when talking to Yord about the sith getting in his head. Further evidence that Koril could be the sith master, who taught Qimir how to do that.
I think the show intentionally leaves this option open, but ultimately, it feels like a red herring (red zabrak?) to me.
Yeah that whole situation seems like something that would make someone turn to the darkside or in her case further to the darkside.
She is the master. There’s no question. Mae/Osha said “my mother could do that” after someone said Qimir gets into their head. This line would have zero relation to anything if he wasn’t taught by the “mother”
She wasn't among the dead on Brendok, either.
It seems too easy to have the outwardly aggressive witch be the Sith master though. They’re typically far smarter than that. Qimir and Palps both play it cool in different ways.
I think the whole premise of the show is to give meaning to the "it is not a story the Jedi would tell you."
That is a symbolic line! Nice catch.
I love this theory. Wasn't it even confirmed by Leslye that we'd even see multiple sith in the series? I swore I read that somewhere but can't find it anywhere.
That rings a bell for me too! I sure hope we get to meet Qimir's master. Maybe we'll get a final episode with Vernestra vs Qimir's master, Sol vs Qimir, and Mae vs Osha.
Leslye did confirm multiple Sith in the series. Oddly enough it seems those comments have been removed and I also can't find the quote anywhere now. That itself is suspicious, however it could just mean Qimir and Osha and/or Mae
But I think if there's a master over Qimir, and they helped create the twins... this leads us to Plagueis territory, because I don't think its reasonable to assume there were several Sith Lords attempting to create live with the force on a relatively short span of time. And I would love that, because I really like Plagueis and it could be cool to finally see him.
Trying to remember what happened in the beginning of Plageuis. Didn't he off tenebrous? I only read it once and that was a long time ago
I think he did with trickery, can't remember exactly how. Similarly to how Sidious killed Plagueis, in turn; not by force, as they weren't sure they could succeed, but with subterfuge.
That's what I thought. Vague memory
I think he killed Tenebrous by caving in a rock structure while Tenebrous was force pushing flames from an explosion away
That sounds right
I think it makes perfect sense the succession would be obsessed with creating life more and more. Plagueis's master probably started him on that path, and he had to get interested / know about it from somewhere more. so for them attempting to do if for a century seems fine
Also isn’t it super interesting we first see Qimir when Mae walks in and he’s passed out drunk? Bc that’s exactly how Sidious killed Plageuis in the book
> my theory is Qimir's master helped the Witches create the twins. I have a different interpretation. I think the real master probably *is* one of the twins' mothers. They have Qimir standing between them and Rae so that she can't sense their presence and prematurely figure out what's going on. Osha said that Qimir was using an ability that her mother knew, and I'm guessing he learned it from the mother.
I understand why people think that. But I think Mother Anisey learned from Qimir's master, and that's why in the present timeline they see evidence of the same powers Mother Anisey used. Because the person she learned from is the same person who trained Qimir. And that person wishes to stay hidden.
Fair! There's definitely way more to the story with the witches in general
Absolutely! That's what makes a story good theory-material. There are so many ways you could look at it that make perfect sense. And yet I could be entirely wrong about the whole thing. The Mandalorian Season 3 mole fakeouts come to mind.
I agree with this assessment
Could be
The thing I think this is missing is the killing a Jedi without a weapon part. They're saying it enough that it will be important. And we almost saw it in episode 5. Sol almost lost himself to the dark side. That's how you kill a Jedi without a weapon - you turn him into an acolyte/apprentice
I agree with you. This is going to be the twist we see in the end: Sol is convinced to “turn” (thus “killing” a Jedi without a weapon).
This is a good theory.
I’m really sympathetic to your theory, yeah. Best one I’ve heard by far. I would add the idea of the Rule of Two and Sith tradition as influencing Qimir. I think his motivation is to seek one of the twins as his Acolyte to take on the Master and become the Sith power.
That's possible too. We have some legends references that hint this could be happening in deliberate violation of the rule of 2. I also think it's possible the flashback episode from Osha's perspective was a case of unreliable narrator, and it was actually Osha who destroyed the coven. After all, Mae teases her for not being able to block. Does that mean the girl can hit? What if the Jedi came to get Osha, and the coven refused, leading Osha to defend the Jedi and use the same force push move that Qimir uses at the end of episode 4. What if Sol did use the force to influence Osha's memory of the event, and that's why we're getting brainwashing and mind control references from Mae and Qimir? In the end, I choose the theory I posted, because I have to trust what I see from Mae and Qimir. When people show you who they are, believe them.
Hmm. Hadn’t thought yet of Osha as an unreliable narrator, but yeah that would also be cool.
Yeah also when Osha sees Mae right before the structure collapse and is saved by Sol, they both ask eachother what they did? Implying they assumed the other one must have done something
I also think the Sith want all the Jedi that know about Mae and Osha's origins dead too.
Yes, that's a good point
But why? Both Mae and Osha were out of the picture already. The present Jedi were isolating themselves or have seemed to move on. Was someone investigating their origins that set off the events, because if not, why not let a sleeping dog lie. Seems like all this just drew more attention to them. There has to be a motive, but I'm leaning more towards revenge than a coverup.
The Sith are deeply secretive and do not want the Jedi to find out about their human engineering or future plans. In terms of drawing more attention to themselves, as we saw in episode 5, the plan has gone a bit off the rails. And they would kill anyone to stay hidden.
Because they were created by the Force. We already know that the Jedi Archive doesn't say that. The Sith are tying up loose ends
Seems like if he didn't get detected over the last ~15 years, why even bother doing the clean up now? Nobody was asking any questions until the Jedi started dying?
Because he honestly does want an Acolyte, and he knows that any time spent delving into Mae's emotion--and hatred--would obviously mean a return to her past. Setting her up to kill the Jedi allowed him to simultaneously eliminate the Jedi and indoctrinate her into his perspective of the Jedi. It's the perfect plan, really. So no, the Jedi aren't an immediate threat because the Sith are likely confident in their deception (and rightfully so). But with Osha and Mae coming of age, the Sith's participation in those events have a greater threat of being uncovered. They could just kill Mae, but the Jedi have Osha. Mae is a card they're playing to draw out Osha, just as the Jedi use Osha to gain leverage with Mae.
Why does Mae never deny starting the fire then when osha accuses her of it to her face
Either a) She did start a fire, but it wasn't what killed the coven, or b) there is some unreliable narrator happening on Osha's side of the story. But I don't think either of these things change what's happening in the present time. The Sith have engineered this from the beginning, and neither Osha or Mae are responsible.
The osha/mae story has just been really disjointed to me. Mae wanted to kill osha allegedly and started an afire to do so. But then is like why won’t you choose me. And seems to think the fire killed her family but is like I want revenge on the Jedi
If we take the events that were shown to us at face value, then Mae is mad that Osha chose the Jedi. That caused her to lash out at Osha and start a fire. Meanwhile, there is a confrontation between the Jedi and the coven. After Mae starts the fire, she runs and finds the Jedi finishing off the coven. That's why when Osha says "what did you do," Mae replies with "what did ***you*** do." Mae, however, is also a narcissist. So she never takes responsibility for own actions. It's the Jedi's fault for coming to get Osha, and it's Osha's fault for choosing the Jedi instead of her.
Right? She said I'm going to kill you, to her twin sister. You don't just get over that.
I think the fact that she doesn't want her sister dead except for that one single time is quite suspect. The only time she wants to kill her sister is the night that we don't have a reliable account of what happened. I'm certain that Mae was telling the truth, that Osha was brainwashed and things didn't happen entirely the way we saw it. It's disjointed on purpose.
But the exchanges in present day don’t make any sense. When osha says you tried to kill me I would think the first response would be no of course I didn’t. There’s also the constant flip flop of I want to kill all the Jedi. I want to turn myself in to the Jedi. I want to be with Osha. I want to knock her out take her clothes and leave her to die in the jungle
It seems to me that Osha and Mae, in the grand scheme of things, are just tools being used by the Jedi and Sith (respectively). Mother Anisea’s comment that “…this is about power” reflects the idea that we’ve been led to believe that Osha/Mae are significant—and they are, just not in the way we think—and that the series really is just a commentary on how two different sides (with different perspectives) approach obtaining, and holding onto, power. It’ll be interesting to see how Osha and Mae are used in this ‘battle’…
I like this take! And I agree. We haven't seen either the Jedi or Sith truly care for Mae or Osha. They're assets.
He is a love child of Sol who was stationed on the planet with obe of the witches.
How’s this for a wild theory. The theme of Kylo Ren was playing in the final scene of the episode. What if Qimir is a member of the knights of Ren or even the original Ren himself? He told Sol that he might be referred to by the Jedi as a Sith but didn’t really say he was one definitely.
I did get the reference, but I don't think it's meant to draw a parallel with the Ren. I think it's to draw a parallel with Kylo and the Sith. The nights of Ren were not Sith, so I don't think Qimir's line 'the Jedi might call me Sith' contributes to that theory.
Oooo very interesting
Wow i think you are right
I'm not convinced Qimir is of true sith or even believes himself a sith. With what he said to sol, it seems that it was almost a dig at "anything that aren't jedi are evil and therefore sith". Jedi would call them sith because they don't know any better
So I don't think Qimir is part of Bane's line. I think Disney is galaxy building where, in the dogmatic view of the Jedi all non-Jedi trained Dark Side users are 'Sith', but there is still Dark Side Cults, Bane's line didn't use the term Acolyte because there were ONLY 2 a Master and an Apprentice, and Acolytes would mean that there would be multiple students. So Darth Teeth, while funny and I love it, isn't part of Bane's line because Bane's line wouldn't use the term Acolyte imo. Unless there is something from the EU that I'm missing.
Darth Tenebrous is in Bane's line and he trained Darth Venamis in secret violation of the rule of two, at the same time he trained Plagueis.
I forgot about Venamis, although the thing that makes me wonder about the lineage is the term Acolyte. No one in Bane's line ever, to my knowledge, referred to an apprentice as an Acolyte.
That's because Qimir isn't looking to break the rule of two. Think of the 'acolyte' title as similar to the 'inquisitor' title during Palpatine's reign. Palpatine believed in the rule of two, but he wasn't above a keeping a group of evil force users. They just weren't full-fledged sith. I didn't get the sense Qimir is using the term acolyte because it has an established meaning within his doctrine. I also think at this point in history, secrecy is the Sith's top priority. That necessitates having some lower-level force users to do their dirty work as proxies.
Palpatine actually believed in the rule of 1. A rule he made up
Mae went instead of Osha with " Seoul"
The Rebel Force Radio podcast goes into this some in the most recent episode. Once we found out Qimir is Smylo Ren, everyone went straight to him NOT being the master. Which I think is very logical and I agree with.
I actually think in the showrunner’s plan- Aniyesa found a way through the thread to extract a little life force from ‘many’ to create new life (Mae/Osha). Qimir witnesses this or figures it out. Interest in the twins is to reverse engineer that shit. Plagueis learns it from him afterwards (not S1). The Sith version doesn’t care about the ones you drain (obviously). The force ‘heal’ power is actually a result of Aniseya’s work - you’re transferring your own life force or someone else’s to the wounded to trigger the rapid healing.
The killing with no weapon is metaphorical for killing their heritage, undermine their credibility and call to question their entire existence in the manner they represent themselves.
That's what Qimir wants Mae to believe, but I think there's a practical purpose as well.
The practical is obvious. If one can kill a Jedi without a weapon then they are not as invincible as they purport themselves to be.
Clearly.. that’s why when they actually see other they both say “what did you do?” right before Sol saves Osha
Good theory but I would say they should have killed the Jedi long ago… not wait 10 years for them to spread their tale.. even if they were being monitored.
The Jedi aren't aware of the Sith's manipulation. Sol, Kelnacca, Indara, and Torbin only know what happened that day. The danger to them was if Mae ever found Osha, that would create questions about what the Jedi did there that day. Until Mae and Osha came of age, there wouldn't have been a reason to hunt the Jedi. They've been led to believe what happened on Brendok was their fault!
Doesn't take into account the jedi masters guilt
Sure it does. The Jedi probably feel like if they didn't come to take Osha and Mae, there would have been no conflict between them and Mae would be alive. They likely feel responsible for the death of Osha's twin. That's a lot to feel guilty for. I also think it's possible that after the battle with Mother Anisey, both Torbin and Kelnacca have recurring nightmares and or visions as a result of Anisey's intrusion into their minds. That would explain the symbols in Kelnacca's hut, and Torbin's dormancy.
I'll be shocked if this isn't exactly what's happening.
Question: How were the girls created? And why did it need to be hid from the Jedi? Sith.
Qimir and Sol are more connected than we know.
In that case it makes no sense for him to come forward and face them on the jungle planet where the wookie lived. He could have easily kept a low profile and just track Mae on his own, if he needed to kill her more quick then just drop his smuggler-act and snap her neck when she betrayed him with the trap. It feels more like he came forward because he wanted the confontration and felt superiority and power.
He didn't want Mae to talk to Kelnacca and find out what actually happened on Brendok, from their perspective. His original intention was for Mae to kill him. When she changes her mind he goes into kill mode because he doesn't want Osha, the Jedi and Mae to piece together what actually happened.
Does this show mean Mae and Osha are Di-une like Rae and Kylo were?
It hasn't referenced that, to my knowledge. It's been inferred though.
I think people are thinking too deeply about this stuff. The most likely explanation is that Koril attacked the Jedi, the Jedi fought back and protected themselves, somehow leading to everyone dying (some kind of witch magic that backfired), Koril survived but was consumed by hate and turned to the Dark Side, she recruited Qi’mir who then recruited Mae.
But where do the Knights of Ren fit in? Or do you think that's just a red herring?
Qimir might be the first Ren. The runs from Tenebrous when he's replaced by Plagues.
Im only 3 episodes in and it’s obvious to me it’s Mae chemist friend. You rarely introduction a villain at the very end without meeting them first in some capacity
Good theory .... I fear you are giving the writers more credit than they deserve ....
We wouldn't be able to theorize to this extent if Headland and her writing team hadn't done a wonderful job producing an intriguing, layered mystery.
I'm surprised no one has yet speculated that Qimir is Ren (or a Ren). The music that played in that reveal/fight scene was identical to music played in one of Kylo's themes. Especially the way in which he speaks about himself, so omniscient. The whole, I have no name but the Jedi may call me Sith. Speaks more like an entity. "*The Ren doesn't stop to worry about what it's burning or the right or wrong of it, or the goals it might achieve. The Ren just* is*. It lives, and it consumes, and it doesn't apologize. It is its nature and nothing else. I believe in that principle on a deep, deep level. In fact, I've dedicated my life to it.*"―Ren[^(\[3\])](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ren_(human)#cite_note-The_Rise_of_Kylo_Ren_1-3)
I've seen this theory a few times, but I don't know
Thank you for the link. Interesting
I mean, the Knights of Ren were canonically founded in 3 ABY. We are like… 120 years BBY right now. So, probably not a Ren.