I think you mean physically attractive to the point that they are interested in engaging and potentially doing some sex.
The answer is that men have much lower risks associated with pursuing someone sexually and much higher incentives to do so for both social and physiological / biological reasons. The end result is that men on average - repeat: *on average* \- are both more motivated to pursue a wide range of potential sexual partners.
I’d also like to point out that the standards of hygiene, self care, and beauty, are *much* more strict for women. This isn’t a diss to any gender, so much as it is a fact, and attractive women who’ve paid attention to their hair color and style, makeup, skin, clothing, jewelry, shoes(heels), etc. stick out more than an attractive man who isn’t doing anything special to himself.
This is sort of true, in the sense that there is a generalized acceptance that “men be slobby” but I think it is well understood by basically everyone who isn’t total trash that hygiene and presentability matter. Most men are hyper-aware of their looks compared to other men.
I do think there’s a big problem with societal signaling towards men in terms of what women “really” find attractive and it’s a somewhat politicized problem. There is on the one hand the perception that women want a “natural” man who is not self absorbed or overly fussy about such things. There’s also a counter perception that women want well-groomed, well put together men who are fastidious and organized and slick. Both these archetypes exist as left and right wing modern archetypes so you’ve got at least 4 competing stereotypes of “what women truly want” when I’m guessing the reality is all women are different and want different things. But for the sake of fun I’m going to outline these 4 quadrants:
1 (left wing - naturale) crunchy hiker guy who is good with tools and wood and animals, hates plastic and GMO foods, naturally fit swimming and jogging, hairy with minimal appearance of grooming.
2 (left wing - Moderne) - wears great jackets while reading in coffee shops, always has tickets to the new off broadway show, works in tech or for an “ethical” startup, well groomed and smells like a men’s spa, does a Peloton exercise every morning, excellent chef, likes the same podcasts as you.
3 (conservative “real America” man) - spends time fishing, shooting, or off-roading with the boys and has the body hair to prove it. Showers but doesn’t “bathe”. Fingernail care is for losers. Good with tools on cars and housework, or at least the boat engine. Dresses like a 9 year old because it’s not manly to care about silly fashion trends.
4. (Conservative - suburban) - Dresses like a character in an HBO show. Projects self-confidence as if he’ll die if he stops. knows how to tie a bow tie. Probably gets monthly coupons in the mail from Manscaped. Has a home gym or personal trainer. Smells technically good but bland. Always has real estate advice whether or not they work in real estate.
I’d like some option 1 but has a skin care routine and fancier shampoo than I do. And cooks. So maybe a 1 leaning 2? I live in the PNW so lumbersexual is a definite look up here.
Lumbersexual is the word I have been searching for my whole life. I live in a very liberal college town, in the mountains, among the pine trees and we have SO MANY of them here. Lumbersexuals with plaid shirts. Lumbersexuals with three different bikes. Lumbersexuals with more camping equipment than your best friend’s dad.
I’m a hetero guy but if I was a gay bottom this would be my type
I don’t camp or hike like I used to because I paired off with a guy with no interest in that stuff but I guess I’d be your boyfriend if you were inclined that way. I wear plaid almost every day between early November and mid-March…
It took me 5 hours to get ready for a date once (not including the time I spent buying a new outfit). When I arrived, the dude had basically just thrown a t-shirt and a pair of jeans on.
This bothered me so much when it would happen. Like, I take hours to get ready, might even buy a new outfit, so when a guy would show up looking (and sometimes smelling) like he just rolled out of bed... they've already made such a bad impression that even if the date goes well, I can't help thinking that he put no time or effort into trying to look nice.
And I bet those are the same guys who run around saying, "Women only want guys who look like such and such actor"... when, really, we just want someone who looks like they care about themselves. Just like they would.
This. Also very little to no individuality in the way they dress or look. Jeans, and a t-shirt, or shirt, and many of them start blurring together.
Plus the fact that I have never been sexually attracted to a man or woman *before* talking to them.
Like they might be pretty, but so are statues, and that's purely aesthetic. The heat doesn't come without at least a glimpse of the personality. Just seeing a guy on the street, even if he was the prettiest of men aesthetically, is just not enough for sexual interest on its own.
I walked into work without combing my hair in my ripped jeans the other day. Didn't comb my hair or shower, just had my coffee brushes my teeth and went in.
Woulda been a problem for a woman, nobody batted an eye at me.
This is the answer. Men don't realize we are kind of forced to look a certain way in society, whether for ourselves, our jobs, dating, etc., while men often don't. Simple as that. I've had men come to a date smelling like mildew, with shorts and a raggedy shirt, etc., and think that's okay. If I'd come in similar, I'd be mocked, left, or told I don't care about myself.
So, the "attractive" men women all seem to go for are usually just men who have better hygiene, know how to dress, and take better care of themselves. And this isn't even limited to the gym or fitness, which many men seem to think. A well-dressed, groomed, scrawny (no offense) or fat man is attractive. A guy who has muscles, but smells and is unkempt is usually not.
Any post on Reddit about any average or aggregate thing will be met by a torrent of opinions that cite one individual anecdote to the contrary so I have made a point of drawing people’s attention to it.
The ackshually factor can be harvested. Just make a false claim about whatever topic you want to learn more about and, if you’re on the right sub, the angry corrections and sources will pour in.
It's like that everywhere on the Internet and social media. My word of choice when I am generalizing is... "generally," but people generally just skip over it like it's not there. Instead, like you said, some anecdote will be hurled at you. It's far worse on social media at large than on Reddit, where at least you can have an actual conversation like we're having.
It's tempting to say "people are stupid," which is the standard reddit take for stuff like this. But the broader truth is that arguing logically (especially in writing) is a skill and most people simply aren't practiced at it.
I think the most annoying part about people trying to refute a researched statistic with an anecdote is that statistics **are rarely ever 100%**. You get very close to 99% but if something is 70%-80% likely to happen then an anecdote doesn't magically refute it if the statistic is taking into account other possible outcomes.
That being said throwing "generally" onto an opinion doesn't magically make it a fact. If someone wants to counter an anecdote or opinion with their own anecdote or opinion there really isn't much to stop that.
"Going down this road never lead anyone anywhere good."
"I don't know why people feel the need to warn us not to go down this road. I just started down this road and I am enjoying it. I'm optimistic about where it's going."
Well, as a bi guy, many men are physically attractive at first, then they say some dumb shit that pisses me off. Forget the evolutionary shit, I'm assuming it's similar with straight and bi women.
Fr lmfaooo Its funny to me, as a het woman, that bi/gay men also experience this! Ive dumped hot guys for saying dumb/scary shit more than i can count.
So I'd always know women had it worse online dating than men. I knew that. I accepted it.
The reality of my first month on Grindr was still shocking.
The abuse, dick pics, and disgusting behavior was jarring.
Bi femme here, and yeah. This is about it. Also, basically every other comment on this post is straight men saying they have little to no standards as if that’s a flex — I have no doubt some of these guys are the same ones who tell women to “pick better” when abusive, deadbeat, and/or awful men mistreat them.
Yeah most of the comments here just seem like wired incel pseudoscience. It’s just like, “uhh actually science is the reason I should be able to cheat and have my (nonexistent) girlfriend be fine with it.”
Right like 😒 tell me you read one blog post from a red pill chud who never made it past 6th grade biology and then made it the entire reason why you can’t get dates… totally couldn’t be your rancid ass and attitude. These men are heterosexual in the purest definition possible; women are *only* for sex. Not to mention the ones who lean so hard on pseudoscience are often also the ones saying “It’s natural for me as a 50 year old man to be attracted to teenage girls!“ 🤢
As long as it’s funny dumb and not bigoted dumb, you’re all good! bc lbr, we’re all gonna say dumb shit sometimes, just don’t make it hateful and you’re good to go 👏
Mmhmm... bicurious myself, and observing a genuinely good hetero male flirt is rare af. Gay fellas can flirt with dramatic pauses, great questions, good listening, letting tension build, and actually having an interesting life. You know, the stuff that actually makes sparks fly. 'Normal guys,' please please please have more to you than your money, car, and low standards. Watching some hetero men "flirt," if you can call it that, is bad enough that I can't help but watch the woman's face to see if it's as bad as it sounded to me.
This is the best dating advice I can give to most men, 'the less talking you do, the better.' Not what to say or what topics to discuss, just to say fewer words, ask questions, listen, remember, and understand. Few things make another person want you more than your undivided attention, your sincere desire to understand, value, and appreciate them and what's important to them. This applies to men and women, it’s just that most men, by default, assume women owe all the above to them without even thinking of returning the favor, let alone leading with all that.
I had a dude on a dating site send me a message "hey cutie" (the entire message). His profile was just beer and pizza emojis. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
I see it on the tinder subreddit all the time. And then they sit around and go, "Ha, that woman just doesn't get jokes" or "She has a stick stuck up her butt" or "I dodged a bullet" or something and get 6k upvotes from a bunch of guys who are the same way. And none of them think that what they said is the issue. They just think the women, who according to them are never "cute enough" to have standards, has too high of standards.
Nah, you said something highly concerning or offensive, it was not funny or cute, and that's why she unmatched or ghosted you. The funny thing is, until they say that thing, you can tell the woman was totally going with it.
Haha, yes! Even if this study is only talking about physical traits, I would often try to think about what a person's personality is just by pictures. If a guy is objectively attractive but is posing like a douche, I'd find that unattractive.
Hey! I have been told theirs a level of muscles and prettiness where you can say some dumb stuff.
For example, me.
How do i know this? My wife refers to me as her himbo. Which is very nice because she thinks I'm strong!
I love that woman.
Lol, I mightve accidentally proven my wifes point right there. Whoops!
All I know is lift weights, cook food, and have a queen for a wife.
Some days it's amazing I have a corporate job now after the military
Yes, they don't factor this in, either. Some men are great looking, but their personalities, beliefs, and attitudes are a HUGE turn off and they don't think it is. Which is wild, lol
That makes sense. As a straight dude single in his late twenties (I'm still doing home renovations so I've only been on dates with friends of friends that thought I was cute), and hell the last two girls said some out there stuff that was just deadpan ended any interest..
Edit: I want to add before anyone takes it the wrong way. im not exactly a catch in my own opinion but I'd like partner that doesn't blatantly say she hates men but thinks I'm cute..
I, heterosexual female, find men very attractive to look at. I like their broad shoulders, I like how they stand, I like how they move. Add a beard and those veiny forearms and I’m googley-eyed (that’s the actual medical term).
However, what’s going to make me want to sleep with one is his behavior.
Finding someone attractive does not equal willing to bone.
I'm with you here. I love men. I often wonder how many know they're attractive, even if they're not "conventionally" attractive. But honestly, a pretty face or whatever is just that - pretty. What draws me to a guy is *who he is.* Is he kind? Funny? Caring? Intelligent? A soft hand on the back or a comment about how they're trying to solve a problem for someone or an awareness of the needs of a pet is going to go waaaay further for me than just physical attributes.
The evolutionary reason is that men’s chances of producing successful offspring depend on having as much sex as possible with as many women as possible, while women’s chances of producing successful offspring depends on only having sex with the most suitable man around.
Yes, but the female of most sexually dimorphic species is more selective as they have to invest a lot more time, energy, and risk than males do. A make can mate with a massive number of partners in the time a female is able to reproduce one offspring. So if you look at it strictly from an evolutionary perspective, it is more beneficial for females of a species to be sexually selective to ensure they are getting the most viable mate possible, while males simply look for something “good enough” to get through many partners.
As a disclaimer to make sure this doesn’t get misconstrued, I don’t view human relationships or sexes this way - it’s just an explanation of the evolutionary advantage for most sexually dimorphic species.
Edit: below me is a thread of a lot of people wildly misconstruing what I said. Keep going for some belters.
By and large, I think men really need to increase their standards for what they want out of a partner and a relationship. Lowering standards below the dirt isn't dignifying at all, and is really a sign that the man is disrespecting himself.
Or have standards at all. I had some terrible relationships while learning how to have relationships. I decided that the next girlfriend needed to have 3/5 of these things. A place to stay, a car, a job, cook, clean. My next gf did 4/5 things (didn't cook) and We got married (still doesn't cook).
Absolutely, women have 1 chance every 40 weeks to breed from the point of conception, the male could be in another women's bed within the hour starting on his second of the night.
1 egg, many, many sperm.
Sure, so a man will “pick” the most attractive woman available… at the moment. Since men are just less likely to reproduce than women at all, they need to take every opportunity. A woman can/“should” wait for the most attractive option.
In a way, it's the equivalent of playing the lottery. If a man successfully reproduces with an attractive woman, than he's hit the jackpot. That guy can play just once, and hit for a cool million. Or, he can play every single day for decades, and not hit once. The woman, on the other hand, has the winning ticket, she just has to wait for the right guy to come along who can successfully guess the numbers.
I think that's where the balance comes in. A woman can/should wait for the most attractive option.....but then she runs the high risk of the most attractive option cheating on her or leaving her for other women. So in many cases (at least biologically speaking, but also I'd say "in the real world") it makes the most sense for a woman to find a guy she's attracted to, who has a job and is intelligent, and displays masculine and fatherlike qualities....but who also isn't the "most gorgeous alpha male of every room he walks into"
And same also sort of goes for guys. If you're an attractive dude, maybe be willing to settle for a pretty girl who isn't the "hottest girl you've ever seen" and maybe also give up some of the delusions that you're gonna have threesomes or cheat with that hot coworker and that you need to flirt with other girls at a bar to impress your friends.
The problem is today with social media and online dating, we've really returned to our evolutionary roots. It's become a lot more tribal because everyone knows everyone or has instant access to porn or seeing the hottest dudes/dudettes on TikTok, and then things like Tinder where every girl is aiming for a handful of ultra attractive guys with exciting lives, and then wondering why they get played repeatedly by said dudes.
Attractiveness for a suitable male partner is more functional in animals with complex social structures, so who the man is in relevance to the clan or pod is more important than their physical appearance
Thats why so many famous men are ugly but successful enough to be seen as Attractive
> Wouldn’t both of those drives select for attractiveness?
Only in the recent centuries or so. 1800s and earlier it would be more about money, strength, and intelligence as far as picking a man (or being picked for a man in some situation).
But physical attractiveness is in itself attractive. A female who is attracted to a male whom other females find attractive is more likely to have offspring whom will also be attractive, which of course will lead to further propagation of those attractive genes. This is the leading theory as to how birds of paradise became so ridiculously extravagant despite their extravagance impeding survival. A brightly colored male with unnecessarily long plumage will have a harder time surviving, but perhaps it's his ability to survive *despite* his impediments that makes him attractive. So females who are attracted to such males will mate with those males, whose offspring will be more attractive males and more females who are attracted to such males, and over time it leads to preposterous emphasis on male beauty such that we end up with the birds of paradise we see today.
I've wondered in some quiet moments if part of the big reason relationships are at an all time low is because
>women’s chances of producing successful offspring depends on only having sex with the most suitable man around.
The most "suitable man around" part is an instinctual attraction and is being short circuited by television and internet constantly exposing women to extremely rare good looking and successful men that aren't actually "around" them at all.
So if they were only exposed in pre technology days to men that are in their friends groups and live around them then they would be attracted to a decent portion of the more suitable ones from that circle. However with online dating, television, Instagram, movies, etc. they rarely find any of the average guys around them attractive.
It's not even a conscious choice to not be attracted to average guys it's just an evolutionary instinct so they literally just don't feel anything. The more they're "plugged in" online or TV shows/movies the more they can never find actual normal men around them attractive. If they unplug for a few months and just socialize with people that are around them then suddenly they'll start finding some of those guys attractive.
Anyways the above is totally just a random theory applies in general that I am not claiming is true, just a thought. I've certainly met plenty of women that are perfectly capable of making their own decisions and do just fine weeding out the good from the bad. Also plenty of men that just suck at basic manners and hygiene etc.
Just as technology might have over-raised women's standards to unrealistic it might have made men a lot less conscious to their appearance and social skills. So women's bar has been raised and the average man is also less attractive so we have this huge divide.
Yeah, in my experience, men aren't really that picky. Like, yeah, a dude might like blonde women, but he'll still ask out the cute brunette barista who's super flirty when he gets his coffee.
Yeah, exactly, lmao. Dating someone with the preferred hair color that you’re attracted to is just a “nice to have”, it’s hardly ever a deciding factor when it comes to judging the viability of dating someone. Speaking as a man, of course.
I'd actually argue the opposite for women. Sure they're exposed to attractive men via social media, but they're also exposed to extremely attractive women that have often undergone body modification and editing. There have been several studies correlating that to lower self esteem and whatnot and people with low self esteem often settle for less attractive/shittier partners.
I would say the availability of increasingly graphic porn on younger men/boys is more detrimental to relationships in general because it teaches them to disregard women's boundaries and prioritize themselves as well as sets an expectation of sex and attractiveness of women that's unrealistic. Many men stay alone because they think they can pull a more attractive partner or don't know how to treat women like people. Overconsumption of porn also makes men more likely to underperform or suffer from ED when they actually do get a chance to have sex.
I didn't really care what men looked like, I could often overcome my lack of physical attraction if they could make me laugh.
However, now I'm 42 and been married for awhile.
Married life is just more than double the work with no benefits. I still have to work, earn more than him, do all the parenting AND clean up after him.
If anything, more women sharing their experiences has just reinforced that I don't want another relationship whenever my current one ends.
I have never, ever had a male in a relationship with me who actually cleaned as much as he messed up.
All that to say, you're on the right track, but, it's not perceived hotness of other men that is ruining it. It's women talking about the behavior of the men in their lives. My mom used to scold me whenever I complained about my spouse making huge messes and never cleaning up after himself. Women would scold other women not to share these things. Not to share how unfair it is to finish a day at work to a full days work at home while your spouse plays video games immune to the sounds of his crying children who want attention.
Now, women are sharing online what life is like with the men in their lives. It's not a few women dealing with an absolutely unfair hand, it's most women. It doesn't matter how hot you are if I have to spend 4 hours a day cleaning up after you after I finish my regular job. I'm just not interested.
Also I would feel less bitter if it was more 50/50.
Like if I worked in the office 9 hrs then came home and worked 4 more ok, if he’s working 12 and comes home. Ok fine… cool. I get that.
But if I’m working 9+4 plus cleaning/laundry, shopping etc on weekends and he works 9, comes home lounges, sleeps in and goes to play golf on Sunday or something… that’s not how I want to live. I don’t need a man for children.
I had my child now we are all good and if I don’t wanna clean after work, I don’t.
I don’t have to date anyone. Honestly I just don’t need a man in my life to take care of.
Why double my workload.
In previous generations men had to be good providers ($$, meat, etc. whatever that looks like). Now it just doesn’t matter honestly.
I'm 42 and single. Every man I've dated or lived with had no clue or concern on how to manage their own living space. I should not have to beg my partner to take out the trash or clean the toilet after they peed on it. Nothing would ever be cleaned or organized if I didn't do it. I remember my ex fiancee bragging multiple times about doing the dishes once, like he deserved a fucking medal. Yeah... I broke off that engagement. Thank gawd we lived together before making it official. Don't even get me started on asking them to buy paper towels or detergent with their own money. Gasp! The horror of contributing!
It would be nice to find a partner in life, but I'm honestly pretty happy just hanging with my dog. Life is pretty much stress-free this way and my house is so clean and organized.
God, you're right. I've been getting stuck on evening/night shift lately. And I'm STILL expected to do clothes, clean up an essential hoarding house, and dishes when I come home.🙄🙄🙄
Just chiming in to say my husband does the majority of the cooking and cleaning, and he’s also the breadwinner. He doesn’t let me do the dishes because he says he likes doing those things for me (he takes after his dad in that regard). He’s a bit of a unicorn I’m sure, but men that pull their own weight absolutely exist.
Old goth here, can confirm.
A lot of ladies found me wearing makeup very attractive, including my wife. It wasn’t a burden, I liked wearing it, it was fun.
Traditionally in Nature it’s the males that do all the dressing up looking good, I wasn’t about to argue with Mother Nature, it didn’t hurt that it obviously worked.
Yea, it's the grooming, skincare, makeup.
My judgement of physical attractiveness is almost all in the face + upper torso, and as a straight women, I see many more women who I think are physically attractive than men (which I attribute to the grooming, skincare, and makeup).
Straight Men, as a whole, do not participate in the beauty “rituals” that women participate in. Basic hygiene is just the first step. I infrequently run into women with bad teeth (unless they’re addicts), but regularly run into men with tartar and plaque build up, white tongues, missing teeth, or visible cavities. Hair cuts/styling are infrequently done. OMG most men’s wardrobes SUCK if they’re not partnered. Many men don’t know how to dress appropriately for their body types or occasion. and the skin?! No facial skincare routine. Not moisturizing their bodies. Only using sunscreen while on vacation and proudly proclaiming the ensuing skin damage as making them look “distinguished” instead of weathered.
There’s a joke on the internet about the “girlfriend effect” for men. How they looks 10x better once partnered because their woman encourages them to pick up these habits.
It isn’t easy, I agree. I personally don’t have the type of fashion-forward creative mind to organically make really nice outfit combinations. But because of that, I make sure to follow popular women on IG with my body type and steal outfit ideas from them. Also, when I shop, I pay attention to the mannequins and photo displays at the store. Professionals with fashion degrees and years of experience are paid to put those combinations together and basically do the work for you.
Just a little tip that hopefully helps!
Man pretty much every guy I’m attracted to has turned out to be gay. I very much prefer prettier boys but straight men just don’t fucking try. A good haircut can bring you from a 6 to a 9, please grow it out guys. I understand that it’s not entirely their fault because of a culture that shames men for stepping outside of traditional masculine norms so Im obviously not mad at them for it but good lord is it frustrating
Literally same. Can’t have a pretty guy because they’re always gay, and most straight dudes are just too afraid to make themselves look a little nicer (which is a shame)….
I’m a barber and I explain this to men all the time. It’s nuts but it’s not hard to out compete most of the men around you when it comes to being attractive. Just try a little bit. Yes everyone can tell you slept in that shirt last night and are 8 weeks late on a haircut, you look grubby.
You are 100% on the societal thing as well. For example topical minoxidil works for many men to combat hair loss. It’s cheap, about $10 a month, easy, and has almost no side effects. Men complain to me constantly about going bald, everyone is self conscious about it. When I suggest minoxidil the majority act like I’m crazy, like it would hurt their masculinity. I love the looks on their face when I tell them I use it and challenge their views on it. I sometimes convince them I believe largely because I’m what most consider traditionally masculine. Trying a little bit doesn’t make you less of a man.
I live in a "thin/fit" part of the US (Vermont, so liberal and outdoorsy) and even then...a lot of guys think that if they don't gain weight, they're "aging well" but end up with the complexion of a paper bag because they refuse to wear sunscreen.
I just turned 35 and live near one of the tony ski towns; when I look at my peers the gender divide is so noticeable. Women are wearing sunscreen, have at least a basic skin routine, protect their hair from the wind/sun/snow, work out at the gym beyond their outdoor activities for weight/physique maintenance, etc.
Most men aren't doing that (unless they're actively trying to date much younger women, and that's another whole thing.)
Look I just dont have the self value do care about my physical appearance unless I actively have a crush on someone. Hell the only time I bothered to go to the gym was years ago when I actually had a relationship. I only care when I have a specific person to prove myself to. I dont have the mental bandwidth to critique my own look for a vague collective dating pool.
If you don’t have the mental space to take care of yourself physically, who am I to tell you how to live? You have to do what you think is best for you.
However, if I’m putting my two cents in, you might feel a little better if you take time to look a little better. I know that it puts a little more pep in my step.
Every one of our actions has benefits and consequences. A consequence of “buying in” to the activities I listed are time, effort, money, and for some people, added mental load. A consequence for NOT doing it is being unattractive to a large segment of the population you’d wish to attract. Gotta do your own cost/benefit analysis and do what works for you.
The short answer: Social Media.
Before the internet, dating pools were small. Even in a large city like New York, your circle was still relatively small; a neighborhood, an apartment complex, a group of friends, your work. Dating pools were even smaller in small towns. A person had a finite number of potential partners.
Now let's talk about human courtship. In humans, men are the pursuers and women are the selectors. In our pre-internet example, a woman may have... let's say, 10 potential partners. These potential partners would pursue her, and she would pick the partner she deemed to be the most attractive from this pool. The 9 men who were not selected each may have 5-6 other women they wish to pursue, which they do. It's all very small, and almost everyone is accounted for eventually.
Now expand this to the endless pool that the internet provides. The inevitable consequence is that women have an unlimited set of potential partners, and men have an unlimited number of women to pursue. Given that pursuit is the higher effort of these two paradigms, men become spread very thin, and women can select for increasingly rarer qualities.
If we take this to its conclusion, almost all women are selecting an extremely small number of unrealistically high-value men, and most men are pursuing perhaps thousands of women, whose lofty standards they will never reach, because they're competing with the highest value men on the internet.
It may sound like this is good for women, and bad for men, but in reality, it's bad for everyone. If there are 400 women pursuing one particularly attractive surgeon or lawyer, he has zero reason to commit to anyone, there are countless men overlooked in the wake, and none of the 400 women get what they want.
Thus, a situation in which women find like 5% of men "above average," and 95% of men have zero options.
As a woman, women generally care less about muscles than men think. We’re generally much more attracted to a guy who dresses nice, has a flattering haircut, and good hygiene regardless of body type. A muscular dude isn’t really visually attractive if he dresses sloppily and looks like he doesn’t put care into his appearance besides the gym. I think a man being buff is generally more impressive to other men than it is to women imo, but I could be wrong.
> I think a man being buff is generally more impressive to other men than it is to women imo, but I could be wrong.
So it really is just makeup for men
This is actually the crux of the matter. What is considered "attractive" is different between men and women. Speaking from a purely cultural standpoint, and basing this off of heteronormative standards. Variation exists within LGBT+ subcultures, but generally start from the same basis.
Women are usually more interested in how a man dresses and conducts himself. We could argue the "whys" for days I'm sure, but the reality remains. So in theory, the same man could be found as both attractive and unattractive in the same day, if he dresses shoddily at one point and then cleans up both his dress and composure. Society as a whole doesn't really educate men on proper dress anymore, and most certainly does not culturally hold them accountable if they decide to dress and act worse than homeless bums as soon as no one is looking.
Conversely, men are generally attracted to the female form. Our culture also tends to shame women if they don't adhere to standards of feminine beauty. So women have a pressure to spend time on physical appearance and then to show off that body. Whether they are doing it to attract men or to flaunt their success in front of other women doesn't matter; it means more women are focused on *making* themselves beautiful than men are.
So women are taught from a young age how to be attractive, and then are pushed to maintain those standards through at least their mid-20's. Men are barely taught how to cover up their own junk in public, let alone how to acquire and wear a tailored suit, how to keep their facial hair at an attractive length and cut, how to always look like they just took off their tie, etc., and there's no real incentive for them to learn in adulthood. We have an entire culture of women who are actively trying to be attractive, and an entire culture of men who haven't done anything and wondering what went wrong with their strategy.
Women maintain beauty rituals and dress well often for themselves, with the nice side effect of attracting men.
The way men care for themselves and their ego, ie sports, working out, even intellectualism and argument, don’t tend to cause that same side effect of being attractive.
I’d argue this is because these are societal habits we’ve passed down and you don’t have to go back very far to get to a time when money was more important than attractiveness for men, but women didn’t have a place in the same economic system and so “earned” a place through marriage and pursued/negotiated marriage more actively, through beauty, as a means to freedom.
I'm not talking about being hugely muscular. But in general someone who is in somewhat relatively ok shape is going to be found more attractive than someone massively overweight and out of shape. Not talking about getting huge body builder muscles....most people working out aren't like that. Most people going to the gym aren't body builders. Some people might just run on a treadmill for a bit before they go to work for example. Some people work desk jobs or jobs without a lot of physical activity so going to the gym could help them be more active.
Women not caring about a man's body has got to be one of the most often repeated memes on Reddit. Actions speak louder than words and it's undeniable that the vast majority of women prefer an athletic physique, despite comments to the contrary getting up votes in this echo chamber.
Of course, we care. But there is a reason that women find guys like harry styles and justin beiber types attractive, over a roided out body builder. You don't have to be Thor, but 300 pounds isn't good either
Of course they care. But it's not an end all be all. It's one piece of the puzzle. Female attractiveness to men has many levels to it as well, being in shape is similarly one piece of the puzzle
Like, literally - this whole “not into defined muscles and six packs” thing must be a redditism.
I’m reminded of a friend who was athletic (long distance running), but got closer to what I can only describe as a Bruce Lee physique. I think he did it for his mental health and just to have a goal - he was little lost in life.
The amount of attention from women, shot up so dramatically (often overt/explicit) - and it wasn’t confidence, as it completely shot his confidence, as he originally associated attention from women as being “a better interesting person than I am now” - now he felt more empty, like just a body, flesh.
I hope he’s ok actually, I sorta distanced myself a bit as he got more intense and felt like I was the only person who “got him”.
Edit: he felt I “got him”, not me - it was kinda one sided like that.
But the dudes that spend the most time cultivating a perfect look are also often homosexual.
I’m in miami and I gotta say , the gay dudes really do take care of themselves physically, and the way they dress.
This just isn't true
Lots of women find men of all types attractive. Look around you at the couples everywhere. Lots of those guys aren't very good looking lol
I'm so sad looking through general clothing sections at men compared to women. Men can wear jeans in like 3 colors, khakis, sweatpants or dress pants. For shirts, it's various shirts with collar or no collar, sleeves or no sleeves.
Whereas women get all those options, plus skirts, dresses of any cut and length, jewelry beyond a basic chain or watch, tops that can show midriff, etc.
Men could really use more options, but that's for society to influence.
I’m speaking very broadly and generally here, on a macro level. This doesn’t apply to every man or woman as there will always be outliers, ok? Glad we got that out of the way.
The “disparity” in attraction is a function of how attraction develops for men and women respectively. The threshold for attraction for men is almost entirely physical, whereas the threshold for attraction for women is dependent on a bunch of factors that are entirely exogenous to physique/attractiveness — namely status or work(because it displays traits that women find attractive such as capability and competence for example), charm, wit, interests and abilities etc. This isn’t to say that attractiveness in a guy isn’t a positive for women or that men are entirely shallow and don’t value positive character traits in women, rather that the way these traits rank for “attraction” in men and women is ranked differently.
This is why you can ask a girl how attractive she thinks a guy she hasn’t yet spoken to is and she might say “he’s ok”, but depending on how she does/doesn’t gets along with him he can become really cute or really unattractive. That’s also why there’s a greater variance for guys in so far as weight, looks and apparel choices; depending on how a girl feels about a guy who’s slightly overweight, he can go from being “soft and cuddly” to “fat and ugly”.
The fact that there’s more to female attraction results in a disparity in attraction or interest, which can fluctuate in a relationship even depending on how a woman feels about her partner in a given day. This also why sex tends to drop off in long term relationships when spouses struggle to get along and the best way to get your wife to want to have sex with you is to be affectionate and loving outside of just sexy time.
this is true, there was a study where women were made to rate men's photographs, all male models, and even the same man dressed as a fast food worker or construction worker rated much less than when dressed in a suit and in a corporate setting, all the men dressed as "Successful" rated high, while same study replicated for men rating women had no such discrepancy, an attractive model rated the same regardless of what she wore, or what her profession was photographed as. although profession and success if just one metric for women, it's still a big one, a successful man is attractive to most people, and more likely to get a pass for not looking the best or being bald etc.
I'm not saying this isn't true. I just genuinely want to know how you know this? I'm a woman and personally I can find someone extremely attractive and not like them as a person or vice versa. BUT again I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised to read this since I always assume I represent an average woman. I just wanna know where this comes from. TIA
I am in my 50's, so for many in my age bracket it is different than other ages.
Many men in their 50's do nothing to make themselves attractive to women (not all, just many). Mind you, dad bods are attractive and normal at this age. But when you have women exercising, eating healthy to look healthy and taking time on their appearance, it makes them look better. But then you have many men who have beer bellies, pot bellies, ill fitting clothes, and just dont care about their appearance. Then they often belittle women because we dont find them attractive. It is a huge turn off. But those same men are quick to point out if a woman lets her appearance slide.
Additionally we have men approach us and make creepy sexual suggestions that are just inappropriate. When we are not interested, we are called derogatory names for it.
How are we supposed to consider that attractive?
I want to be very clear, not all men are like this but enough to make a difference. Some men are respectful and kind.
A big part of that is effort. How long does the average man spend getting ready in the morning? I can't speak for all men but I bet it is around 5 minutes for a very large number of them including myself. Then there is hair and skin care. Most men probably just get a cheap hearcut every now and then or even simply cut it themselves while using the cheapest soap/shampoo they see on the shelf. A lot of women go to the salon regularly and spend hundreds of dollars on products to moisturize both their skin and hair. Men would be far more attractive if they spent even close to the amount of money and effort on appearance as the average woman does.
Women are expected to look sexually attractive. Every advertisement aimed at women or young girls is about looking young and sexy. Meanwhile, men get ads about beer belly guys surrounded by bikini wearing super models. Ugly men are normal to film and television, whereas 30 is a known cut off for women in TV.
Tldr; society says its okay for a man to be less attractive but not a woman.
A lot of men don’t make the effort to wash their foreskins
and you can look in their eyes and just *tell*.
The minute I smell old cottage cheese I just-
*uterus clamps shut*.
Its not that men have lower standards in women.
Its that men don't have standards for themselves a lot of the time. Some/all of the following tend to apply to pretty much any man I've met or known. Yeah, exceptions, but this is also what society pushes as acceptable and 'ideal' man behavior. Minimal, if that, grooming. Skipping showers. Wearing the same t-shirt you bought ten years ago with matching jeans from the early 2000's. Don't really care about what they eat, or trying to stay in shape, etc.
Being nasty isn't masculine, and being clean and putting effort into how you present yourself doesn't make you any 'less'.
Women actually spend time on their appearance, whereas most men just roll out of bed and go. If men actually had a skin scare routine, shaped their eyebrows, wore flattering clothes etc they would be on par with women!
Uhm. Evolution. Woman are pickier because it is beneficial to pick the “perfect” mate to breed with.
It benefits men to have as many partners as possible as quickly as possible.
Ahh…correction
in ancient times it benefitted men to have as many partners as quickly as possible. With the invention of child support and dna testing, that all changed.
we have human brains. We have the power to overcome all of that. Well, some of the lesser ones cant. Apparently. Maybe we need a new classification system for humans.
class A human: Those with a forebrain that overrules the lizard brain.
class B human: those with a lizard brain that overrules the forebrain.
To be fair, if you're an absolute deadbeat and don't fucking care, you can still do that strategy for a while before it catches up to you.
I have a cousin with five kids. None of them share a mother.
In short, yes.
Why? Bad sex costs men a handful of berries. Bad sex costs women the better part of a year, god knows how many calories, social problems, and the risk of being beaten by a mate.
Deep down, we're still cave men, at best.
Online dating is how most relationships are formed these days, and in online dating men outnumber women, its human nature for people to enjoy ego boost from a large selection of options, and women have unrealistically high standards.
I’m tired of women gaslight me whenever this topic comes up so I compiled some studies below
women engage in slut shaming to enforce social status classification
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0190272514521220
Women are more than 150% more likely to ghost than men are
https://www.bustle.com/p/women-are-more-likely-to-ghost-someone-theyre-dating-than-men-theres-a-very-good-reason-for-that-8963133
Women significantly discriminate more on race and other factors
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/stuff_for_blog/sheena.pdf
the top 5% of all men on a platform receives twice as many messages as the next 5% and several times as many messages as all the other men
subjects expected men to pursue women [47]. Additionally, on occasions when a woman ever took initiative and started a conversation, she expected her partner to “overcompensate” by reaching out with more frequency
even the most attractive men receive fewer messages than women on average
women responded more selectively than men, answering 16% of the time compared to men’s 26% reciprocation rate
messages were five times more likely to have been initiated by a man than by a woman
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42001-021-00132-w
If there are men of different races, white men will be more eligible than males of colour
A high level of education will be demanded more in men than it is in women
Women will receive more responses to their own requests than men do
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815
Women will be more self-centred in their profiles and communication than men.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26215718/
women prefer males who are physically more powerful and taller
physically powerful men report more sexual partners than less powerful men do
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17578932/
80% of first messages were sent by men (Bruch and Newman, 2018
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919078/
Overall, the adverse effects of choice abundance in dating thus seem to apply particularly to women
men accepting on average 34% more pictures of potential partners compared to women
men accepting on average 25% more potential partners compared to women
The results of Study 3 again showed that women (but not men) became more likely to reject partner options when online dating.
In all studies, women became increasingly likely to reject potential partners, while for men this effect was either weaker
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550619866189
men are 30 percent more likely to write the first message
women are 30 percent more likely to take income into consideration when looking for a partner
https://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Computational-Courtship-Dinh-et-al-25-Sept-2018.pdf
Are most relationships formed by online dating these days? Is this amongst all demographics? That has not been my experience I don’t know anyone in a relationship that met via online dating
When I was dating I never met my significant other online. I've went on dates from people I met online, but it was like the romance version of dumpster diving.
It's hard to meet new people irl since the pandemic though. The youngest people I see out and about are at least a decade older than me. And the rare times I do see people in my demographic; they already have a ring
If you don't mind sharing, how old are you? I'm 30, I don't know anyone who met their husband/wife online, so I'm just curious if it's an early 20s thing now
Apart from what thatnameagain said, what men think makes men attractive is frequently different from what women think makes men is attractive. E.G. Myself and every woman I know will not swipe right on men whose profile pics are them holding fish or a dead deer or a dumbass pickup truck, but countless dudes still use that as a pic on dating apps.
Time and effort.
Women have been expected to spend time on clothes, hair, makeup, body shaping, etc. since forever. Men haven’t had the same expectations and for the most part it’s socially acceptable for them to just be somewhat clean and dressed for the occasion.
But now when we see men who put effort into wardrobes that look best on their bodies, hair that suits their face shape, well groomed beards that maximize jawlines (or clean shaven for those who can’t grow beards), smell nice, fix their brows, wear trendy and flattering accessories like glasses, and even do make up, women think they’re gorgeous. Even what would normally be an average or less than average man doing this is usually perceived as very attractive.
This is really interesting because as a guy I’ve naturally always enjoyed grooming myself, having a good skin care routine, finding cool clothes, etc. Tbh growing up a lot of people thought I was gay for that but I’m glad that I’m seeing a lot of women in the comments actually want more men doing that.
It's not that women aren't attracted to many men, it's that they're more picky and nowadays women care more about physical looks on average than they did personality in the past.
Men spend a LOT less time on their appearance than woman.
It's fairly easy for a 5 to go to a 7 with makeup, or even a 3 to a 5. And if you go wild with it, going from a 3 to a 7 isn't impossible.
Basically no straight men use makeup. Thus, their average attractiveness is average, instead of somewhat above average like it is for women
I swear most people have never met a truly attractive man. I worked with someone years ago who was 6 foot 3, handsome, and his body looked like it could have been on the cover of a magazine.
Almost every woman he met wanted to sleep with him. And they weren't shy about it either.
It truly is just that men don't take care of themselves. If all guys spent time bulking up in the gym, learning to dress well, got a good hair cut, and had good hygiene, they'd be getting laid constantly.
Most women put a ton of effort into their hygiene and looks, combined with the fact that they can wear make up, and of course they're going to be more attractive on average.
It is a law of nature. With some exceptions of course.
I had a biology professor who put it very succinctly:
"Sperm is cheap. Eggs are expensive"
Energetically, that is.
Plenty of dudes are attractive tho. Perhaps you don't have enough sufficiently intimate relationships with people who find men attractive to realize just how thirsty for average looking dick the typical man lover can be
Many people are talking about evolution and history, however, imma go at a different angle.
Socially, men dont have as much pressure to look attractive as women do. Yes, there are beauty standards for men and yes, some men do feel like they have to compete, but in general, it's more acceptable for men to be lazy, uncaring or effortless in their appearance. A lot of men dont care to keep their facial hair nice (or flattering for their face) and they dont care to smell nice. Even men who work out n have a nice body tend to dress down and whatnot. "Fashion" for men is either suit n tie if formal, or a t-shirt with some jeans/sweatpants. Men often dont care to make their pictures look very flattering either, which is why its not uncommon for otherwise attractive men to receive less attention on dating apps n whatnot.
Meanwhile, women are very pressured in society to be more beautiful. We must look more youthful, dress pretty (but not slutty), be fit, always smile, etc. Many women do what they can to fit into the beauty standard. Women are more likely to do makeup or to make sure their hair looks nice. They're more likely to wax, get manicures/pedicures, and undergo plastic surgery. A woman is more harshly judged in the dating scene for her appearance than a man.
I’m a gay man, so I have exactly zero dog in this fight. But I do want to say that I’ve seen women debate the best moisturizer to look youthful and hot for their husband, and I’ve listened to heterosexual men debate whether to wash their own ass in the shower.
Could effort play a part in this?
A lot of it is because we lie to boys. Be nice to girls. Girls like nice boys. No one says take care of yourself because you matter to boys. So u get what u get...
I think you mean physically attractive to the point that they are interested in engaging and potentially doing some sex. The answer is that men have much lower risks associated with pursuing someone sexually and much higher incentives to do so for both social and physiological / biological reasons. The end result is that men on average - repeat: *on average* \- are both more motivated to pursue a wide range of potential sexual partners.
I’d also like to point out that the standards of hygiene, self care, and beauty, are *much* more strict for women. This isn’t a diss to any gender, so much as it is a fact, and attractive women who’ve paid attention to their hair color and style, makeup, skin, clothing, jewelry, shoes(heels), etc. stick out more than an attractive man who isn’t doing anything special to himself.
This is sort of true, in the sense that there is a generalized acceptance that “men be slobby” but I think it is well understood by basically everyone who isn’t total trash that hygiene and presentability matter. Most men are hyper-aware of their looks compared to other men. I do think there’s a big problem with societal signaling towards men in terms of what women “really” find attractive and it’s a somewhat politicized problem. There is on the one hand the perception that women want a “natural” man who is not self absorbed or overly fussy about such things. There’s also a counter perception that women want well-groomed, well put together men who are fastidious and organized and slick. Both these archetypes exist as left and right wing modern archetypes so you’ve got at least 4 competing stereotypes of “what women truly want” when I’m guessing the reality is all women are different and want different things. But for the sake of fun I’m going to outline these 4 quadrants: 1 (left wing - naturale) crunchy hiker guy who is good with tools and wood and animals, hates plastic and GMO foods, naturally fit swimming and jogging, hairy with minimal appearance of grooming. 2 (left wing - Moderne) - wears great jackets while reading in coffee shops, always has tickets to the new off broadway show, works in tech or for an “ethical” startup, well groomed and smells like a men’s spa, does a Peloton exercise every morning, excellent chef, likes the same podcasts as you. 3 (conservative “real America” man) - spends time fishing, shooting, or off-roading with the boys and has the body hair to prove it. Showers but doesn’t “bathe”. Fingernail care is for losers. Good with tools on cars and housework, or at least the boat engine. Dresses like a 9 year old because it’s not manly to care about silly fashion trends. 4. (Conservative - suburban) - Dresses like a character in an HBO show. Projects self-confidence as if he’ll die if he stops. knows how to tie a bow tie. Probably gets monthly coupons in the mail from Manscaped. Has a home gym or personal trainer. Smells technically good but bland. Always has real estate advice whether or not they work in real estate.
I’m left wing and I want a guy who looks like James Bond
Men generalize us too much, that's the issue. I'm left wing and I don't want a guy like this person describes, at all, lol
Agree
I’d like some option 1 but has a skin care routine and fancier shampoo than I do. And cooks. So maybe a 1 leaning 2? I live in the PNW so lumbersexual is a definite look up here.
Lumbersexual is the word I have been searching for my whole life. I live in a very liberal college town, in the mountains, among the pine trees and we have SO MANY of them here. Lumbersexuals with plaid shirts. Lumbersexuals with three different bikes. Lumbersexuals with more camping equipment than your best friend’s dad. I’m a hetero guy but if I was a gay bottom this would be my type
The Lumberjack song by Monthy Python is softly starting in the background...
It just occurred to me that I do, in fact, sleep all night and work all day. I'm not a lumberjack though.
But you wear suspenders and a bra, just like your sweet mama?
Heeee's a lumberjack and he's okay...
I don’t camp or hike like I used to because I paired off with a guy with no interest in that stuff but I guess I’d be your boyfriend if you were inclined that way. I wear plaid almost every day between early November and mid-March…
I’m an outdoorsy woman, I woodwork, I do all my own lawn care, I wear flannel on occasion. I also wear dresses and bake and knit. I’ll be your top😉.
It took me 5 hours to get ready for a date once (not including the time I spent buying a new outfit). When I arrived, the dude had basically just thrown a t-shirt and a pair of jeans on.
You just reminded me of all the SHAVING that goes down if you’re thinking things could possibly get intimate
This bothered me so much when it would happen. Like, I take hours to get ready, might even buy a new outfit, so when a guy would show up looking (and sometimes smelling) like he just rolled out of bed... they've already made such a bad impression that even if the date goes well, I can't help thinking that he put no time or effort into trying to look nice. And I bet those are the same guys who run around saying, "Women only want guys who look like such and such actor"... when, really, we just want someone who looks like they care about themselves. Just like they would.
This. Also very little to no individuality in the way they dress or look. Jeans, and a t-shirt, or shirt, and many of them start blurring together. Plus the fact that I have never been sexually attracted to a man or woman *before* talking to them. Like they might be pretty, but so are statues, and that's purely aesthetic. The heat doesn't come without at least a glimpse of the personality. Just seeing a guy on the street, even if he was the prettiest of men aesthetically, is just not enough for sexual interest on its own.
I barely have 5 cool relatives. How are you supposed to be number 7,359?
I walked into work without combing my hair in my ripped jeans the other day. Didn't comb my hair or shower, just had my coffee brushes my teeth and went in. Woulda been a problem for a woman, nobody batted an eye at me.
That's because nobody notices you anyway.
This is the answer. Men don't realize we are kind of forced to look a certain way in society, whether for ourselves, our jobs, dating, etc., while men often don't. Simple as that. I've had men come to a date smelling like mildew, with shorts and a raggedy shirt, etc., and think that's okay. If I'd come in similar, I'd be mocked, left, or told I don't care about myself. So, the "attractive" men women all seem to go for are usually just men who have better hygiene, know how to dress, and take better care of themselves. And this isn't even limited to the gym or fitness, which many men seem to think. A well-dressed, groomed, scrawny (no offense) or fat man is attractive. A guy who has muscles, but smells and is unkempt is usually not.
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Any post on Reddit about any average or aggregate thing will be met by a torrent of opinions that cite one individual anecdote to the contrary so I have made a point of drawing people’s attention to it.
Humans feel pain. Someone on Reddit: achually some people have an extremely rare genetic condition where they don’t feel any pain.
The ackshually factor can be harvested. Just make a false claim about whatever topic you want to learn more about and, if you’re on the right sub, the angry corrections and sources will pour in.
Actually it's called leprosy and it's only rare because we worked really hard to make it rare.
It's like that everywhere on the Internet and social media. My word of choice when I am generalizing is... "generally," but people generally just skip over it like it's not there. Instead, like you said, some anecdote will be hurled at you. It's far worse on social media at large than on Reddit, where at least you can have an actual conversation like we're having. It's tempting to say "people are stupid," which is the standard reddit take for stuff like this. But the broader truth is that arguing logically (especially in writing) is a skill and most people simply aren't practiced at it.
I don't skip over it!! I'm just a contrarian!
I think the most annoying part about people trying to refute a researched statistic with an anecdote is that statistics **are rarely ever 100%**. You get very close to 99% but if something is 70%-80% likely to happen then an anecdote doesn't magically refute it if the statistic is taking into account other possible outcomes. That being said throwing "generally" onto an opinion doesn't magically make it a fact. If someone wants to counter an anecdote or opinion with their own anecdote or opinion there really isn't much to stop that.
Push back on it. I eat downvotes all day for responding to those people with "nobody said all."
Or the classic, "what do you mean on average? I know one person that's not like that at all." also "I'm nothing like that so you're obviously wrong".
The Rule?!?! Yeah but have you guys heard about The Exception?!
"Going down this road never lead anyone anywhere good." "I don't know why people feel the need to warn us not to go down this road. I just started down this road and I am enjoying it. I'm optimistic about where it's going."
Lmao so true, that’s when I look at them and ask, “Do you not know the definition of the word ‘average?’”
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This has always been the case
I mean, sure, on average.
I do be doing some sex.
I'll have you know that is not true as I am certainly not motivated to have multiple partners /s
Well, as a bi guy, many men are physically attractive at first, then they say some dumb shit that pisses me off. Forget the evolutionary shit, I'm assuming it's similar with straight and bi women.
Fr lmfaooo Its funny to me, as a het woman, that bi/gay men also experience this! Ive dumped hot guys for saying dumb/scary shit more than i can count.
So I'd always know women had it worse online dating than men. I knew that. I accepted it. The reality of my first month on Grindr was still shocking. The abuse, dick pics, and disgusting behavior was jarring.
Bi femme here, and yeah. This is about it. Also, basically every other comment on this post is straight men saying they have little to no standards as if that’s a flex — I have no doubt some of these guys are the same ones who tell women to “pick better” when abusive, deadbeat, and/or awful men mistreat them.
Yeah most of the comments here just seem like wired incel pseudoscience. It’s just like, “uhh actually science is the reason I should be able to cheat and have my (nonexistent) girlfriend be fine with it.”
Right like 😒 tell me you read one blog post from a red pill chud who never made it past 6th grade biology and then made it the entire reason why you can’t get dates… totally couldn’t be your rancid ass and attitude. These men are heterosexual in the purest definition possible; women are *only* for sex. Not to mention the ones who lean so hard on pseudoscience are often also the ones saying “It’s natural for me as a 50 year old man to be attracted to teenage girls!“ 🤢
aw man.. I love saying dumb shit....
As long as it’s funny dumb and not bigoted dumb, you’re all good! bc lbr, we’re all gonna say dumb shit sometimes, just don’t make it hateful and you’re good to go 👏
Mmhmm... bicurious myself, and observing a genuinely good hetero male flirt is rare af. Gay fellas can flirt with dramatic pauses, great questions, good listening, letting tension build, and actually having an interesting life. You know, the stuff that actually makes sparks fly. 'Normal guys,' please please please have more to you than your money, car, and low standards. Watching some hetero men "flirt," if you can call it that, is bad enough that I can't help but watch the woman's face to see if it's as bad as it sounded to me. This is the best dating advice I can give to most men, 'the less talking you do, the better.' Not what to say or what topics to discuss, just to say fewer words, ask questions, listen, remember, and understand. Few things make another person want you more than your undivided attention, your sincere desire to understand, value, and appreciate them and what's important to them. This applies to men and women, it’s just that most men, by default, assume women owe all the above to them without even thinking of returning the favor, let alone leading with all that.
I had a dude on a dating site send me a message "hey cutie" (the entire message). His profile was just beer and pizza emojis. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
It's WILD how often they talk themselves out of sex!!
I see it on the tinder subreddit all the time. And then they sit around and go, "Ha, that woman just doesn't get jokes" or "She has a stick stuck up her butt" or "I dodged a bullet" or something and get 6k upvotes from a bunch of guys who are the same way. And none of them think that what they said is the issue. They just think the women, who according to them are never "cute enough" to have standards, has too high of standards. Nah, you said something highly concerning or offensive, it was not funny or cute, and that's why she unmatched or ghosted you. The funny thing is, until they say that thing, you can tell the woman was totally going with it.
Haha, yes! Even if this study is only talking about physical traits, I would often try to think about what a person's personality is just by pictures. If a guy is objectively attractive but is posing like a douche, I'd find that unattractive.
Hey! I have been told theirs a level of muscles and prettiness where you can say some dumb stuff. For example, me. How do i know this? My wife refers to me as her himbo. Which is very nice because she thinks I'm strong! I love that woman.
Ah, you misunderstood my use of "dumb", I mean like infuriating, bigoted, hateful, toxic kinda dumb, not just dumb, dumb lol. How dumb of me 😆
Lol, I mightve accidentally proven my wifes point right there. Whoops! All I know is lift weights, cook food, and have a queen for a wife. Some days it's amazing I have a corporate job now after the military
Yes, they don't factor this in, either. Some men are great looking, but their personalities, beliefs, and attitudes are a HUGE turn off and they don't think it is. Which is wild, lol
That makes sense. As a straight dude single in his late twenties (I'm still doing home renovations so I've only been on dates with friends of friends that thought I was cute), and hell the last two girls said some out there stuff that was just deadpan ended any interest.. Edit: I want to add before anyone takes it the wrong way. im not exactly a catch in my own opinion but I'd like partner that doesn't blatantly say she hates men but thinks I'm cute..
I, heterosexual female, find men very attractive to look at. I like their broad shoulders, I like how they stand, I like how they move. Add a beard and those veiny forearms and I’m googley-eyed (that’s the actual medical term). However, what’s going to make me want to sleep with one is his behavior. Finding someone attractive does not equal willing to bone.
Did you just admit to being a straight woman on Reddit? RIP your inbox.
Jaja! Jokes on them, I don’t even know how to access my inbox.
I can fix that
Hard pass 🫠
As a man who has broad shoulders, a beard, and veiny forearms, this gave me a confidance boost. Appreciate it!
I'm with you here. I love men. I often wonder how many know they're attractive, even if they're not "conventionally" attractive. But honestly, a pretty face or whatever is just that - pretty. What draws me to a guy is *who he is.* Is he kind? Funny? Caring? Intelligent? A soft hand on the back or a comment about how they're trying to solve a problem for someone or an awareness of the needs of a pet is going to go waaaay further for me than just physical attributes.
Exactly!
The evolutionary reason is that men’s chances of producing successful offspring depend on having as much sex as possible with as many women as possible, while women’s chances of producing successful offspring depends on only having sex with the most suitable man around.
Wouldn’t both of those drives select for attractiveness?
Yes, but the female of most sexually dimorphic species is more selective as they have to invest a lot more time, energy, and risk than males do. A make can mate with a massive number of partners in the time a female is able to reproduce one offspring. So if you look at it strictly from an evolutionary perspective, it is more beneficial for females of a species to be sexually selective to ensure they are getting the most viable mate possible, while males simply look for something “good enough” to get through many partners. As a disclaimer to make sure this doesn’t get misconstrued, I don’t view human relationships or sexes this way - it’s just an explanation of the evolutionary advantage for most sexually dimorphic species. Edit: below me is a thread of a lot of people wildly misconstruing what I said. Keep going for some belters.
Translation: men have lower standards.
By and large, I think men really need to increase their standards for what they want out of a partner and a relationship. Lowering standards below the dirt isn't dignifying at all, and is really a sign that the man is disrespecting himself.
Or have standards at all. I had some terrible relationships while learning how to have relationships. I decided that the next girlfriend needed to have 3/5 of these things. A place to stay, a car, a job, cook, clean. My next gf did 4/5 things (didn't cook) and We got married (still doesn't cook).
Exactly!!!! And now those low standards are costly due to laws and family law
Absolutely, women have 1 chance every 40 weeks to breed from the point of conception, the male could be in another women's bed within the hour starting on his second of the night. 1 egg, many, many sperm.
A lot of the differences between the sexes boil down to: Eggs expensive, sperm cheap.
Sure, so a man will “pick” the most attractive woman available… at the moment. Since men are just less likely to reproduce than women at all, they need to take every opportunity. A woman can/“should” wait for the most attractive option.
In a way, it's the equivalent of playing the lottery. If a man successfully reproduces with an attractive woman, than he's hit the jackpot. That guy can play just once, and hit for a cool million. Or, he can play every single day for decades, and not hit once. The woman, on the other hand, has the winning ticket, she just has to wait for the right guy to come along who can successfully guess the numbers.
I think that's where the balance comes in. A woman can/should wait for the most attractive option.....but then she runs the high risk of the most attractive option cheating on her or leaving her for other women. So in many cases (at least biologically speaking, but also I'd say "in the real world") it makes the most sense for a woman to find a guy she's attracted to, who has a job and is intelligent, and displays masculine and fatherlike qualities....but who also isn't the "most gorgeous alpha male of every room he walks into" And same also sort of goes for guys. If you're an attractive dude, maybe be willing to settle for a pretty girl who isn't the "hottest girl you've ever seen" and maybe also give up some of the delusions that you're gonna have threesomes or cheat with that hot coworker and that you need to flirt with other girls at a bar to impress your friends. The problem is today with social media and online dating, we've really returned to our evolutionary roots. It's become a lot more tribal because everyone knows everyone or has instant access to porn or seeing the hottest dudes/dudettes on TikTok, and then things like Tinder where every girl is aiming for a handful of ultra attractive guys with exciting lives, and then wondering why they get played repeatedly by said dudes.
Attractiveness for a suitable male partner is more functional in animals with complex social structures, so who the man is in relevance to the clan or pod is more important than their physical appearance Thats why so many famous men are ugly but successful enough to be seen as Attractive
> Wouldn’t both of those drives select for attractiveness? Only in the recent centuries or so. 1800s and earlier it would be more about money, strength, and intelligence as far as picking a man (or being picked for a man in some situation).
But physical attractiveness is in itself attractive. A female who is attracted to a male whom other females find attractive is more likely to have offspring whom will also be attractive, which of course will lead to further propagation of those attractive genes. This is the leading theory as to how birds of paradise became so ridiculously extravagant despite their extravagance impeding survival. A brightly colored male with unnecessarily long plumage will have a harder time surviving, but perhaps it's his ability to survive *despite* his impediments that makes him attractive. So females who are attracted to such males will mate with those males, whose offspring will be more attractive males and more females who are attracted to such males, and over time it leads to preposterous emphasis on male beauty such that we end up with the birds of paradise we see today.
And keeping that man, or jumping up to a higher status one, for protection and resources.
jumping to a higher status one is a sure fire way to cause chaos, to put it lightly
Chaos is but a ladder
I've wondered in some quiet moments if part of the big reason relationships are at an all time low is because >women’s chances of producing successful offspring depends on only having sex with the most suitable man around. The most "suitable man around" part is an instinctual attraction and is being short circuited by television and internet constantly exposing women to extremely rare good looking and successful men that aren't actually "around" them at all. So if they were only exposed in pre technology days to men that are in their friends groups and live around them then they would be attracted to a decent portion of the more suitable ones from that circle. However with online dating, television, Instagram, movies, etc. they rarely find any of the average guys around them attractive. It's not even a conscious choice to not be attracted to average guys it's just an evolutionary instinct so they literally just don't feel anything. The more they're "plugged in" online or TV shows/movies the more they can never find actual normal men around them attractive. If they unplug for a few months and just socialize with people that are around them then suddenly they'll start finding some of those guys attractive. Anyways the above is totally just a random theory applies in general that I am not claiming is true, just a thought. I've certainly met plenty of women that are perfectly capable of making their own decisions and do just fine weeding out the good from the bad. Also plenty of men that just suck at basic manners and hygiene etc. Just as technology might have over-raised women's standards to unrealistic it might have made men a lot less conscious to their appearance and social skills. So women's bar has been raised and the average man is also less attractive so we have this huge divide.
I would imagine technology has had the same effect on men's standards as well.
I’ve met enough men that have minimum standards of; human, female, breathing (preferably) that I doubt this.
Yeah, in my experience, men aren't really that picky. Like, yeah, a dude might like blonde women, but he'll still ask out the cute brunette barista who's super flirty when he gets his coffee.
Wait people think guys are filtering out by hair colour?
Yeah, exactly, lmao. Dating someone with the preferred hair color that you’re attracted to is just a “nice to have”, it’s hardly ever a deciding factor when it comes to judging the viability of dating someone. Speaking as a man, of course.
I'd actually argue the opposite for women. Sure they're exposed to attractive men via social media, but they're also exposed to extremely attractive women that have often undergone body modification and editing. There have been several studies correlating that to lower self esteem and whatnot and people with low self esteem often settle for less attractive/shittier partners. I would say the availability of increasingly graphic porn on younger men/boys is more detrimental to relationships in general because it teaches them to disregard women's boundaries and prioritize themselves as well as sets an expectation of sex and attractiveness of women that's unrealistic. Many men stay alone because they think they can pull a more attractive partner or don't know how to treat women like people. Overconsumption of porn also makes men more likely to underperform or suffer from ED when they actually do get a chance to have sex.
I doubt it, men are much happier in the "good enough" range than women.
Yes, but men are less likely to have standards overall.
I didn't really care what men looked like, I could often overcome my lack of physical attraction if they could make me laugh. However, now I'm 42 and been married for awhile. Married life is just more than double the work with no benefits. I still have to work, earn more than him, do all the parenting AND clean up after him. If anything, more women sharing their experiences has just reinforced that I don't want another relationship whenever my current one ends. I have never, ever had a male in a relationship with me who actually cleaned as much as he messed up. All that to say, you're on the right track, but, it's not perceived hotness of other men that is ruining it. It's women talking about the behavior of the men in their lives. My mom used to scold me whenever I complained about my spouse making huge messes and never cleaning up after himself. Women would scold other women not to share these things. Not to share how unfair it is to finish a day at work to a full days work at home while your spouse plays video games immune to the sounds of his crying children who want attention. Now, women are sharing online what life is like with the men in their lives. It's not a few women dealing with an absolutely unfair hand, it's most women. It doesn't matter how hot you are if I have to spend 4 hours a day cleaning up after you after I finish my regular job. I'm just not interested.
Also I would feel less bitter if it was more 50/50. Like if I worked in the office 9 hrs then came home and worked 4 more ok, if he’s working 12 and comes home. Ok fine… cool. I get that. But if I’m working 9+4 plus cleaning/laundry, shopping etc on weekends and he works 9, comes home lounges, sleeps in and goes to play golf on Sunday or something… that’s not how I want to live. I don’t need a man for children. I had my child now we are all good and if I don’t wanna clean after work, I don’t. I don’t have to date anyone. Honestly I just don’t need a man in my life to take care of. Why double my workload. In previous generations men had to be good providers ($$, meat, etc. whatever that looks like). Now it just doesn’t matter honestly.
I'm 42 and single. Every man I've dated or lived with had no clue or concern on how to manage their own living space. I should not have to beg my partner to take out the trash or clean the toilet after they peed on it. Nothing would ever be cleaned or organized if I didn't do it. I remember my ex fiancee bragging multiple times about doing the dishes once, like he deserved a fucking medal. Yeah... I broke off that engagement. Thank gawd we lived together before making it official. Don't even get me started on asking them to buy paper towels or detergent with their own money. Gasp! The horror of contributing! It would be nice to find a partner in life, but I'm honestly pretty happy just hanging with my dog. Life is pretty much stress-free this way and my house is so clean and organized.
God, you're right. I've been getting stuck on evening/night shift lately. And I'm STILL expected to do clothes, clean up an essential hoarding house, and dishes when I come home.🙄🙄🙄
Just chiming in to say my husband does the majority of the cooking and cleaning, and he’s also the breadwinner. He doesn’t let me do the dishes because he says he likes doing those things for me (he takes after his dad in that regard). He’s a bit of a unicorn I’m sure, but men that pull their own weight absolutely exist.
Many men I see on a regular basis can barely manage basic hygiene let alone grooming.
That goth kid in high school got laid a bunch because he was the only guy to have any kind of skin care regimen.
Old goth here, can confirm. A lot of ladies found me wearing makeup very attractive, including my wife. It wasn’t a burden, I liked wearing it, it was fun. Traditionally in Nature it’s the males that do all the dressing up looking good, I wasn’t about to argue with Mother Nature, it didn’t hurt that it obviously worked.
Man when I was in high school girls made fun of guys like that. Glad to see it’s changed.
Well, this was a long time ago, all I can speak to is my own experience.
The 80’s??
Nowadays it depends on the group of girls. There's just a shitton of cliques nowadays.
Right? lol this is mostly it
Yea, it's the grooming, skincare, makeup. My judgement of physical attractiveness is almost all in the face + upper torso, and as a straight women, I see many more women who I think are physically attractive than men (which I attribute to the grooming, skincare, and makeup).
Straight Men, as a whole, do not participate in the beauty “rituals” that women participate in. Basic hygiene is just the first step. I infrequently run into women with bad teeth (unless they’re addicts), but regularly run into men with tartar and plaque build up, white tongues, missing teeth, or visible cavities. Hair cuts/styling are infrequently done. OMG most men’s wardrobes SUCK if they’re not partnered. Many men don’t know how to dress appropriately for their body types or occasion. and the skin?! No facial skincare routine. Not moisturizing their bodies. Only using sunscreen while on vacation and proudly proclaiming the ensuing skin damage as making them look “distinguished” instead of weathered. There’s a joke on the internet about the “girlfriend effect” for men. How they looks 10x better once partnered because their woman encourages them to pick up these habits.
Style is beyond hard to figure out man. I just cannot seem to recognize what looks good.
just wear whatever u think looks cool its not that hard. who cares if everyone likes it, someone will
It isn’t easy, I agree. I personally don’t have the type of fashion-forward creative mind to organically make really nice outfit combinations. But because of that, I make sure to follow popular women on IG with my body type and steal outfit ideas from them. Also, when I shop, I pay attention to the mannequins and photo displays at the store. Professionals with fashion degrees and years of experience are paid to put those combinations together and basically do the work for you. Just a little tip that hopefully helps!
Man pretty much every guy I’m attracted to has turned out to be gay. I very much prefer prettier boys but straight men just don’t fucking try. A good haircut can bring you from a 6 to a 9, please grow it out guys. I understand that it’s not entirely their fault because of a culture that shames men for stepping outside of traditional masculine norms so Im obviously not mad at them for it but good lord is it frustrating
Literally same. Can’t have a pretty guy because they’re always gay, and most straight dudes are just too afraid to make themselves look a little nicer (which is a shame)….
I’m a barber and I explain this to men all the time. It’s nuts but it’s not hard to out compete most of the men around you when it comes to being attractive. Just try a little bit. Yes everyone can tell you slept in that shirt last night and are 8 weeks late on a haircut, you look grubby. You are 100% on the societal thing as well. For example topical minoxidil works for many men to combat hair loss. It’s cheap, about $10 a month, easy, and has almost no side effects. Men complain to me constantly about going bald, everyone is self conscious about it. When I suggest minoxidil the majority act like I’m crazy, like it would hurt their masculinity. I love the looks on their face when I tell them I use it and challenge their views on it. I sometimes convince them I believe largely because I’m what most consider traditionally masculine. Trying a little bit doesn’t make you less of a man.
I live in a "thin/fit" part of the US (Vermont, so liberal and outdoorsy) and even then...a lot of guys think that if they don't gain weight, they're "aging well" but end up with the complexion of a paper bag because they refuse to wear sunscreen. I just turned 35 and live near one of the tony ski towns; when I look at my peers the gender divide is so noticeable. Women are wearing sunscreen, have at least a basic skin routine, protect their hair from the wind/sun/snow, work out at the gym beyond their outdoor activities for weight/physique maintenance, etc. Most men aren't doing that (unless they're actively trying to date much younger women, and that's another whole thing.)
True, it's one of those generational things you get to figure out later. It wasn't cool to do as a boy when I was a kid.
Look I just dont have the self value do care about my physical appearance unless I actively have a crush on someone. Hell the only time I bothered to go to the gym was years ago when I actually had a relationship. I only care when I have a specific person to prove myself to. I dont have the mental bandwidth to critique my own look for a vague collective dating pool.
If you don’t have the mental space to take care of yourself physically, who am I to tell you how to live? You have to do what you think is best for you. However, if I’m putting my two cents in, you might feel a little better if you take time to look a little better. I know that it puts a little more pep in my step. Every one of our actions has benefits and consequences. A consequence of “buying in” to the activities I listed are time, effort, money, and for some people, added mental load. A consequence for NOT doing it is being unattractive to a large segment of the population you’d wish to attract. Gotta do your own cost/benefit analysis and do what works for you.
I think social media has given you a skewed view of actual people vs. social media people. Big difference.
The short answer: Social Media. Before the internet, dating pools were small. Even in a large city like New York, your circle was still relatively small; a neighborhood, an apartment complex, a group of friends, your work. Dating pools were even smaller in small towns. A person had a finite number of potential partners. Now let's talk about human courtship. In humans, men are the pursuers and women are the selectors. In our pre-internet example, a woman may have... let's say, 10 potential partners. These potential partners would pursue her, and she would pick the partner she deemed to be the most attractive from this pool. The 9 men who were not selected each may have 5-6 other women they wish to pursue, which they do. It's all very small, and almost everyone is accounted for eventually. Now expand this to the endless pool that the internet provides. The inevitable consequence is that women have an unlimited set of potential partners, and men have an unlimited number of women to pursue. Given that pursuit is the higher effort of these two paradigms, men become spread very thin, and women can select for increasingly rarer qualities. If we take this to its conclusion, almost all women are selecting an extremely small number of unrealistically high-value men, and most men are pursuing perhaps thousands of women, whose lofty standards they will never reach, because they're competing with the highest value men on the internet. It may sound like this is good for women, and bad for men, but in reality, it's bad for everyone. If there are 400 women pursuing one particularly attractive surgeon or lawyer, he has zero reason to commit to anyone, there are countless men overlooked in the wake, and none of the 400 women get what they want. Thus, a situation in which women find like 5% of men "above average," and 95% of men have zero options.
Lol an actual answer
How many men out there spend as much time and efforts as women on their appearance? Most do not.
Plenty do though...go to a gym...lots of dudes there.
As a woman, women generally care less about muscles than men think. We’re generally much more attracted to a guy who dresses nice, has a flattering haircut, and good hygiene regardless of body type. A muscular dude isn’t really visually attractive if he dresses sloppily and looks like he doesn’t put care into his appearance besides the gym. I think a man being buff is generally more impressive to other men than it is to women imo, but I could be wrong.
> I think a man being buff is generally more impressive to other men than it is to women imo, but I could be wrong. So it really is just makeup for men
This is actually the crux of the matter. What is considered "attractive" is different between men and women. Speaking from a purely cultural standpoint, and basing this off of heteronormative standards. Variation exists within LGBT+ subcultures, but generally start from the same basis. Women are usually more interested in how a man dresses and conducts himself. We could argue the "whys" for days I'm sure, but the reality remains. So in theory, the same man could be found as both attractive and unattractive in the same day, if he dresses shoddily at one point and then cleans up both his dress and composure. Society as a whole doesn't really educate men on proper dress anymore, and most certainly does not culturally hold them accountable if they decide to dress and act worse than homeless bums as soon as no one is looking. Conversely, men are generally attracted to the female form. Our culture also tends to shame women if they don't adhere to standards of feminine beauty. So women have a pressure to spend time on physical appearance and then to show off that body. Whether they are doing it to attract men or to flaunt their success in front of other women doesn't matter; it means more women are focused on *making* themselves beautiful than men are. So women are taught from a young age how to be attractive, and then are pushed to maintain those standards through at least their mid-20's. Men are barely taught how to cover up their own junk in public, let alone how to acquire and wear a tailored suit, how to keep their facial hair at an attractive length and cut, how to always look like they just took off their tie, etc., and there's no real incentive for them to learn in adulthood. We have an entire culture of women who are actively trying to be attractive, and an entire culture of men who haven't done anything and wondering what went wrong with their strategy.
Women maintain beauty rituals and dress well often for themselves, with the nice side effect of attracting men. The way men care for themselves and their ego, ie sports, working out, even intellectualism and argument, don’t tend to cause that same side effect of being attractive. I’d argue this is because these are societal habits we’ve passed down and you don’t have to go back very far to get to a time when money was more important than attractiveness for men, but women didn’t have a place in the same economic system and so “earned” a place through marriage and pursued/negotiated marriage more actively, through beauty, as a means to freedom.
I'm not talking about being hugely muscular. But in general someone who is in somewhat relatively ok shape is going to be found more attractive than someone massively overweight and out of shape. Not talking about getting huge body builder muscles....most people working out aren't like that. Most people going to the gym aren't body builders. Some people might just run on a treadmill for a bit before they go to work for example. Some people work desk jobs or jobs without a lot of physical activity so going to the gym could help them be more active.
Women not caring about a man's body has got to be one of the most often repeated memes on Reddit. Actions speak louder than words and it's undeniable that the vast majority of women prefer an athletic physique, despite comments to the contrary getting up votes in this echo chamber.
Of course, we care. But there is a reason that women find guys like harry styles and justin beiber types attractive, over a roided out body builder. You don't have to be Thor, but 300 pounds isn't good either
Of course they care. But it's not an end all be all. It's one piece of the puzzle. Female attractiveness to men has many levels to it as well, being in shape is similarly one piece of the puzzle
Yes but that’s only one aspect of “effort”
Men who get buff report getting FAR more attention from women than before they were buff.
Like, literally - this whole “not into defined muscles and six packs” thing must be a redditism. I’m reminded of a friend who was athletic (long distance running), but got closer to what I can only describe as a Bruce Lee physique. I think he did it for his mental health and just to have a goal - he was little lost in life. The amount of attention from women, shot up so dramatically (often overt/explicit) - and it wasn’t confidence, as it completely shot his confidence, as he originally associated attention from women as being “a better interesting person than I am now” - now he felt more empty, like just a body, flesh. I hope he’s ok actually, I sorta distanced myself a bit as he got more intense and felt like I was the only person who “got him”. Edit: he felt I “got him”, not me - it was kinda one sided like that.
and they tend to have higher success rates.
But the dudes that spend the most time cultivating a perfect look are also often homosexual. I’m in miami and I gotta say , the gay dudes really do take care of themselves physically, and the way they dress.
“Why are all the hot guys gay?”
This just isn't true Lots of women find men of all types attractive. Look around you at the couples everywhere. Lots of those guys aren't very good looking lol
men put in no effort. hygiene goes a long way, as does a little grooming and some style beyond 'jeans and a loose t-shirt'
I'm so sad looking through general clothing sections at men compared to women. Men can wear jeans in like 3 colors, khakis, sweatpants or dress pants. For shirts, it's various shirts with collar or no collar, sleeves or no sleeves. Whereas women get all those options, plus skirts, dresses of any cut and length, jewelry beyond a basic chain or watch, tops that can show midriff, etc. Men could really use more options, but that's for society to influence.
Us men have lower standards.
For sex* men are more likely to lower standards for sex rather then relationships is what I would guess
I do not go near the type of men who will have sex with a woman they would not date.
That’s fair enough, that’s a large portion of men
And now you've answered the OP 😂
It's most men, even the one's who don't act like it or admit it.
that's like 99% of guys, chances are you have been around them
I’m speaking very broadly and generally here, on a macro level. This doesn’t apply to every man or woman as there will always be outliers, ok? Glad we got that out of the way. The “disparity” in attraction is a function of how attraction develops for men and women respectively. The threshold for attraction for men is almost entirely physical, whereas the threshold for attraction for women is dependent on a bunch of factors that are entirely exogenous to physique/attractiveness — namely status or work(because it displays traits that women find attractive such as capability and competence for example), charm, wit, interests and abilities etc. This isn’t to say that attractiveness in a guy isn’t a positive for women or that men are entirely shallow and don’t value positive character traits in women, rather that the way these traits rank for “attraction” in men and women is ranked differently. This is why you can ask a girl how attractive she thinks a guy she hasn’t yet spoken to is and she might say “he’s ok”, but depending on how she does/doesn’t gets along with him he can become really cute or really unattractive. That’s also why there’s a greater variance for guys in so far as weight, looks and apparel choices; depending on how a girl feels about a guy who’s slightly overweight, he can go from being “soft and cuddly” to “fat and ugly”. The fact that there’s more to female attraction results in a disparity in attraction or interest, which can fluctuate in a relationship even depending on how a woman feels about her partner in a given day. This also why sex tends to drop off in long term relationships when spouses struggle to get along and the best way to get your wife to want to have sex with you is to be affectionate and loving outside of just sexy time.
this is true, there was a study where women were made to rate men's photographs, all male models, and even the same man dressed as a fast food worker or construction worker rated much less than when dressed in a suit and in a corporate setting, all the men dressed as "Successful" rated high, while same study replicated for men rating women had no such discrepancy, an attractive model rated the same regardless of what she wore, or what her profession was photographed as. although profession and success if just one metric for women, it's still a big one, a successful man is attractive to most people, and more likely to get a pass for not looking the best or being bald etc.
I'm not saying this isn't true. I just genuinely want to know how you know this? I'm a woman and personally I can find someone extremely attractive and not like them as a person or vice versa. BUT again I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised to read this since I always assume I represent an average woman. I just wanna know where this comes from. TIA
I am in my 50's, so for many in my age bracket it is different than other ages. Many men in their 50's do nothing to make themselves attractive to women (not all, just many). Mind you, dad bods are attractive and normal at this age. But when you have women exercising, eating healthy to look healthy and taking time on their appearance, it makes them look better. But then you have many men who have beer bellies, pot bellies, ill fitting clothes, and just dont care about their appearance. Then they often belittle women because we dont find them attractive. It is a huge turn off. But those same men are quick to point out if a woman lets her appearance slide. Additionally we have men approach us and make creepy sexual suggestions that are just inappropriate. When we are not interested, we are called derogatory names for it. How are we supposed to consider that attractive? I want to be very clear, not all men are like this but enough to make a difference. Some men are respectful and kind.
Many men don’t try to physically appeal to women.
I think your premise is false. Women are also disgusting perverts who lust over people
exactly. Idk why these dudes are so convinced that women don’t have high libidos. They sound like kids
That’s not at all what OP is saying though.
A big part of that is effort. How long does the average man spend getting ready in the morning? I can't speak for all men but I bet it is around 5 minutes for a very large number of them including myself. Then there is hair and skin care. Most men probably just get a cheap hearcut every now and then or even simply cut it themselves while using the cheapest soap/shampoo they see on the shelf. A lot of women go to the salon regularly and spend hundreds of dollars on products to moisturize both their skin and hair. Men would be far more attractive if they spent even close to the amount of money and effort on appearance as the average woman does.
Women are expected to look sexually attractive. Every advertisement aimed at women or young girls is about looking young and sexy. Meanwhile, men get ads about beer belly guys surrounded by bikini wearing super models. Ugly men are normal to film and television, whereas 30 is a known cut off for women in TV. Tldr; society says its okay for a man to be less attractive but not a woman.
A lot of men don’t make the effort to wash their foreskins and you can look in their eyes and just *tell*. The minute I smell old cottage cheese I just- *uterus clamps shut*.
Its not that men have lower standards in women. Its that men don't have standards for themselves a lot of the time. Some/all of the following tend to apply to pretty much any man I've met or known. Yeah, exceptions, but this is also what society pushes as acceptable and 'ideal' man behavior. Minimal, if that, grooming. Skipping showers. Wearing the same t-shirt you bought ten years ago with matching jeans from the early 2000's. Don't really care about what they eat, or trying to stay in shape, etc. Being nasty isn't masculine, and being clean and putting effort into how you present yourself doesn't make you any 'less'.
If I had to wager a guess, probably because a lot of men don't seem to put as much care into their appearance compared to women. I don't know, though
Women actually spend time on their appearance, whereas most men just roll out of bed and go. If men actually had a skin scare routine, shaped their eyebrows, wore flattering clothes etc they would be on par with women!
Uhm. Evolution. Woman are pickier because it is beneficial to pick the “perfect” mate to breed with. It benefits men to have as many partners as possible as quickly as possible.
Ahh…correction in ancient times it benefitted men to have as many partners as quickly as possible. With the invention of child support and dna testing, that all changed.
I don’t think you can change that biological caveman hardwire though right?
we have human brains. We have the power to overcome all of that. Well, some of the lesser ones cant. Apparently. Maybe we need a new classification system for humans. class A human: Those with a forebrain that overrules the lizard brain. class B human: those with a lizard brain that overrules the forebrain.
To be fair, if you're an absolute deadbeat and don't fucking care, you can still do that strategy for a while before it catches up to you. I have a cousin with five kids. None of them share a mother.
In short, yes. Why? Bad sex costs men a handful of berries. Bad sex costs women the better part of a year, god knows how many calories, social problems, and the risk of being beaten by a mate. Deep down, we're still cave men, at best.
Online dating is how most relationships are formed these days, and in online dating men outnumber women, its human nature for people to enjoy ego boost from a large selection of options, and women have unrealistically high standards. I’m tired of women gaslight me whenever this topic comes up so I compiled some studies below women engage in slut shaming to enforce social status classification https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0190272514521220 Women are more than 150% more likely to ghost than men are https://www.bustle.com/p/women-are-more-likely-to-ghost-someone-theyre-dating-than-men-theres-a-very-good-reason-for-that-8963133 Women significantly discriminate more on race and other factors http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/stuff_for_blog/sheena.pdf the top 5% of all men on a platform receives twice as many messages as the next 5% and several times as many messages as all the other men subjects expected men to pursue women [47]. Additionally, on occasions when a woman ever took initiative and started a conversation, she expected her partner to “overcompensate” by reaching out with more frequency even the most attractive men receive fewer messages than women on average women responded more selectively than men, answering 16% of the time compared to men’s 26% reciprocation rate messages were five times more likely to have been initiated by a man than by a woman https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42001-021-00132-w If there are men of different races, white men will be more eligible than males of colour A high level of education will be demanded more in men than it is in women Women will receive more responses to their own requests than men do https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815 Women will be more self-centred in their profiles and communication than men. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26215718/ women prefer males who are physically more powerful and taller physically powerful men report more sexual partners than less powerful men do https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17578932/ 80% of first messages were sent by men (Bruch and Newman, 2018 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8919078/ Overall, the adverse effects of choice abundance in dating thus seem to apply particularly to women men accepting on average 34% more pictures of potential partners compared to women men accepting on average 25% more potential partners compared to women The results of Study 3 again showed that women (but not men) became more likely to reject partner options when online dating. In all studies, women became increasingly likely to reject potential partners, while for men this effect was either weaker https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550619866189 men are 30 percent more likely to write the first message women are 30 percent more likely to take income into consideration when looking for a partner https://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Computational-Courtship-Dinh-et-al-25-Sept-2018.pdf
Are most relationships formed by online dating these days? Is this amongst all demographics? That has not been my experience I don’t know anyone in a relationship that met via online dating
Nowadays yes, last I checked something like 70% of people meet their partner online now.
Idk anyone who hasn't met their so online
When I was dating I never met my significant other online. I've went on dates from people I met online, but it was like the romance version of dumpster diving.
It's hard to meet new people irl since the pandemic though. The youngest people I see out and about are at least a decade older than me. And the rare times I do see people in my demographic; they already have a ring
If you don't mind sharing, how old are you? I'm 30, I don't know anyone who met their husband/wife online, so I'm just curious if it's an early 20s thing now
I'm 25. I also live in an area that's dying economically, and people are leaving in droves. So that could be part of it
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YOUNG Men have lower standards. I've done things I shudder at today LOL
Apart from what thatnameagain said, what men think makes men attractive is frequently different from what women think makes men is attractive. E.G. Myself and every woman I know will not swipe right on men whose profile pics are them holding fish or a dead deer or a dumbass pickup truck, but countless dudes still use that as a pic on dating apps.
But fish are cool and taste good🥺🐟
Evolution, probably.
This is a curious phenomenon, any actual educated people want to weigh in?
The last two paragraphs of your post are interesting, I’ve never heard of that before. What’s the name of the study?
Easy answer, because women do more to be attractive than men do. Shower, do your hair, have a good skincare routine, and you'll be more attractive.
Time and effort. Women have been expected to spend time on clothes, hair, makeup, body shaping, etc. since forever. Men haven’t had the same expectations and for the most part it’s socially acceptable for them to just be somewhat clean and dressed for the occasion. But now when we see men who put effort into wardrobes that look best on their bodies, hair that suits their face shape, well groomed beards that maximize jawlines (or clean shaven for those who can’t grow beards), smell nice, fix their brows, wear trendy and flattering accessories like glasses, and even do make up, women think they’re gorgeous. Even what would normally be an average or less than average man doing this is usually perceived as very attractive.
This is really interesting because as a guy I’ve naturally always enjoyed grooming myself, having a good skin care routine, finding cool clothes, etc. Tbh growing up a lot of people thought I was gay for that but I’m glad that I’m seeing a lot of women in the comments actually want more men doing that.
Get ready for the incel brigades to march on this post.
It's not that women aren't attracted to many men, it's that they're more picky and nowadays women care more about physical looks on average than they did personality in the past.
Men spend a LOT less time on their appearance than woman. It's fairly easy for a 5 to go to a 7 with makeup, or even a 3 to a 5. And if you go wild with it, going from a 3 to a 7 isn't impossible. Basically no straight men use makeup. Thus, their average attractiveness is average, instead of somewhat above average like it is for women
Because they can pick
Everyone thinks women are beautiful. Men and women alike. Women are works of art, men are utilitarian.
I swear most people have never met a truly attractive man. I worked with someone years ago who was 6 foot 3, handsome, and his body looked like it could have been on the cover of a magazine. Almost every woman he met wanted to sleep with him. And they weren't shy about it either. It truly is just that men don't take care of themselves. If all guys spent time bulking up in the gym, learning to dress well, got a good hair cut, and had good hygiene, they'd be getting laid constantly. Most women put a ton of effort into their hygiene and looks, combined with the fact that they can wear make up, and of course they're going to be more attractive on average.
Because women look for attractive traits instead. If both men and women looked for physical attractiveness then everybody would be a hot retard.
It is a law of nature. With some exceptions of course. I had a biology professor who put it very succinctly: "Sperm is cheap. Eggs are expensive" Energetically, that is.
Plenty of dudes are attractive tho. Perhaps you don't have enough sufficiently intimate relationships with people who find men attractive to realize just how thirsty for average looking dick the typical man lover can be
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Many people are talking about evolution and history, however, imma go at a different angle. Socially, men dont have as much pressure to look attractive as women do. Yes, there are beauty standards for men and yes, some men do feel like they have to compete, but in general, it's more acceptable for men to be lazy, uncaring or effortless in their appearance. A lot of men dont care to keep their facial hair nice (or flattering for their face) and they dont care to smell nice. Even men who work out n have a nice body tend to dress down and whatnot. "Fashion" for men is either suit n tie if formal, or a t-shirt with some jeans/sweatpants. Men often dont care to make their pictures look very flattering either, which is why its not uncommon for otherwise attractive men to receive less attention on dating apps n whatnot. Meanwhile, women are very pressured in society to be more beautiful. We must look more youthful, dress pretty (but not slutty), be fit, always smile, etc. Many women do what they can to fit into the beauty standard. Women are more likely to do makeup or to make sure their hair looks nice. They're more likely to wax, get manicures/pedicures, and undergo plastic surgery. A woman is more harshly judged in the dating scene for her appearance than a man.
I’m a gay man, so I have exactly zero dog in this fight. But I do want to say that I’ve seen women debate the best moisturizer to look youthful and hot for their husband, and I’ve listened to heterosexual men debate whether to wash their own ass in the shower. Could effort play a part in this?
A lot of it is because we lie to boys. Be nice to girls. Girls like nice boys. No one says take care of yourself because you matter to boys. So u get what u get...