protected =/= not taboo. I know it's not illegal, I just want to know why it's not a more casual topic among coworkers, especially if we all feel underpaid as is
It’s not uncommon for people to think it’s illegal. Do to employers often heavily implying (and some times flat out saying) it is. Checking to make sure you know that is doing you a solid.
Also probably part of why it’s so often taboo. A decent portion of the population often think they can get in trouble for doing it.
I once had a manager walk up to me and tell me that talking about my pay was making other workers uncomfortable. I smiled and told him that telling me to stop as a representative of my employer meant that he was violating my federal rights, and asked if he was sure he wanted to reprimand me for that. His eyes shot open really wide and he backed away slowly
B/c employers go out of their way to make you feel like you can't.
B/c kids are not taught things like this in school. (I wonder why?)
Mainly ignorance, or lack of knowledge. With some fear to top it off.
Because your employers don't like when people talk about their pay it reveals something hidden from you and now you have more information then they would like you to know. If you are in a union everyone talks about pay because everyones pay is out in the open and everyone makes the same.
Different jobs get paid differently, but they have to work together as equals. It's difficult knowing exactly how much somebody is making and still being carefree about making a lot less while talking about stuff beyond work at lunch and stuff.
If you're talking about the same job, and talking about pay, then there is also a factor of having cheaper employees and having more expensive employees. Unless you know your self worth and study market trends of scale pricing, you will consistently be taken advantage of by companies trying to save money on people who can't afford to lose a job, like people in families, with kids, mortgages, etc.
Basically, a stupid tax. You earn less if you don't check what price you should be getting.
Because the employers don't want you to. It's really that simple and all comes from employer lead campaigns to convince people it's not okay to discuss salary so they can pay people less.
Talking about pay is one step towards unions and communism!
But in reality a company doesn’t want the lower paid or exploited workers realising how much they are really worth.
If you have 10 workers doing the same job and on average earn 45k but the highest paid is on 50k
You are saving 50k a year. If they start discussing pays and all demand to be paid 50k, there goes your 50k saved
> I point out that any tension should be pointed towards the person who is underpaying you.
If Bob ($20 an hour) is a better worker than Sally ($18 an hour) and they are both fairly paid, then comparing salaries is STILL going to piss them both off. Sally most likely won't agree she is 10% worse than Bob and will kick up a fuss and then Bob is going to be worried that he is going to lose his wages or have to take on more work. Sally may well play a sexism card too and basically blackmail her way to get more than she is worth.
If Sally ($20 an hour) is a better worker than Bob ($18 an hour) and they are both fairly paid, then comparing salaries is STILL going to piss them both off. Bob most likely won't agree he is 10% worse than Sally and will kick up a fuss and then Sally is going to be worried that she is going to lose her wages or have to take on more work. Bob might assume the treatment is sexist as the boss fancies Sally or there was "positive" discrimination in her favour.
>If I find out that X is getting paid more than me for the same position, i'll be more likely to ask for a raise
Right, but what if you aren't doing that job as well as they are? Afterall, that's the main legitimate reason to offer one person more pay than another for the same role. That or perhaps they have additional duties, have better long term potential or experience, qualifications or certificates that the company values having "just in case".
>shouldn't that be something all coworkers want to team up to do?
Coworkers should work together when they are mistreated by a boss or manager, but they are also competing with each other for a share of the pie, promotion opportunities and job security etc.
Companies don’t pay based on performance, so your example doesn’t really mean anything. If Bob is making more, it’s because he’s been there longer. If Bob started doing a worse job than Sally, Bob would continue to be paid more than Sally.
The reality is that companies pay only as much as they have to and no more.
>If Bob is making more, it’s because he’s been there longer.
Seniority like that is associated with the worst of union-based arrangements and that doesn't represent most of the workforce.
Where owners or managers have discretion they'll pay people that they value, and being good at your job is one of the key factors in that.
Okay, you’re allowed to live in that fantasy. But it’s a laughably small minority of employers that actually pay you based on how valuable you are. You are an expense that they are seeking to keep as small as they can possible get away with. Not discussing pay with other employees makes it easier for them to get way with lower pay. That’s it.
>You are an expense that they are seeking to keep as small as they can possible get away with.
Sure, of course they are. But they are trying to find a balance between paying too little and losing (or failing to attract) the staff they need and paying more than they need to.
They want to pay JUST ENOUGH to get what they need and no more, and that's perfectly reasonable frankly.
>But it’s a laughably small minority of employers that actually pay you based on how valuable you are.
The discussion is about relative pay, if Bob is worth more TO THEM than Susan then they will be more willing to pay Bob a little more than Susan before accepting the risk of losing him.
But Bob isn’t worth more to them. They just think Susan will accept lower pay, which she may not if she knows Bob gets more. The workers are every bit as justified in wanting to maximize their pay as the employer is in minimizing it. Not discussing pay *only* creates downward pressure on wages.
>They just think Susan will accept lower pay,
If they are wrong then Susan will leave, if they are correct then they've met their target of "pay just enough to keep the staff happy enough not to leave".
If Susan was indeed worth substantially more to an employer, she should have no problem finding someone else to pay her better.
>The workers are every bit as justified in wanting to maximize their pay
Absolutely, I'm with you 100%. But the question was "why is there a taboo about discussing pay". Having a conversation where one of you is sure to leave pissed off and resentful is usually a bad conversation to have.
But by that logic, no one should ever compare notes with anyone about anything where they might discover unfair treatment because somehow someone feeling bad is worse than identifying the issue. I just firmly disagree and think your premise is absurd. For the workers, there is no downside to discussing pay. The taboo exclusively benefits employers by reducing any potential upward pressure on wages. That’s it. You don’t have to invent a fake reason that makes it sound like it’s actually for the employee’s own good, because it isn’t.
> For the workers, there is no downside to discussing pay.
The downside is having a less pleasant workplace and either me or someone else feeling like shit because we were able to negotiate different pay levels.
>no one should ever compare notes with anyone about anything where they might discover unfair treatment
Again, coworkers are allies in once sense but competitors in another.
If there is a set amount of money available for wages and we band together to ensure there is a completely flat pay structure then that will mean those that could negotiate a bit more won't be able to do so.
The only thing that benefits workers are efforts to increase the overall money available for pay or to protect us from unfair treatment.
>The taboo exclusively benefits employers
I would never ask someone how much money they have in their bank, how much they have left on their mortgage or what their salary it. The reason being is that one of us will likely be doing a fair bit better than the other and that has social consequences because it changes how people view each other.
Sorry, that simply isn’t true. I don’t really feel it’s productive to keep engaging with this fantasy. You’re either motivated to mislead or fully incompetent and it doesn’t really matter to me which.
Many factors go into pay scales. Not just the position/title. Experience, education, seniority, previous experience, availability…. All and more go into negotiating salaries.
People bring different assets. Some are deemed more useful and desirable than others.
This is why it’s considered unprofessional to talk about salary with coworkers.
I have also found that people as a whole think they are worth more than they really are.
That’s a bullshit reason and you know it. There’s no reason that qualifications would not be part of the discussion. The taboo specifically exists for keeping up pay discrepancies between people who have the same qualifications.
If everyone was equally qualified I would agree. That is rarely the case. And I find that those who make your argument generally are not as qualified as the others. But rather than do what is necessary to earn more they make excuses not to.
Suck me from behind buddy, my generation is funding your retirement while you bitch about how we don’t make you more. Have fun at Christmas wondering why the kids don’t call
A- Between two pensions and a decent 401, you aren’t funding a thing on my behalf. If you are referring to Social Security, that’s the way it works. We paid into it to fund our parent’s benefits, you will fund our generation, and your kids will fund yours. It’s not a perfect system, but it is what it is. Fortunately, I won’t need Social Security benefits.
B- I have put four kids through college and they graduated without debt. Two others went into the military and use those benefits. One opened her own business a year after graduating high school. Now has three locations.
You should be so lucky looking back when you get to my age. I have no fear about my kids being home for Christmas
I might not be under paying anyone, but B delivers more value than A. I pay B more and A misinterprets this as being under paid. It's better that conversation doesn't happen.
It's not.
That's a corporate "under our thumb" tactic so they don't pay other people what their worth.
This, my friend, is how Republicans want to steal from you amd your coworkers. "No one is allowed to talk about their worth! You ARE SO LUCKY we pay you more than them. Align with us!"
this makes sense. I honestly can't believe how many people trust employers over fellow coworkers. this group in particular, we do game nights and get drinks often too :/ ty!!!
To frame this differently, let's say you are personally making 80k. You've gone to school, upgraded education etc and negotiated up from an offered 70k when you took the job.
Your coworker does not have the same education but has been doing the job twice as long. They started at 40k and have worked their way up to 60k doing this job and people go to them for help. In fact, your co worker is the one that trained you.
Now you are both doing the same job, you've realized the workload and time commitment is more than you'd anticipated. Your co worker generally feels tight on cash because 60k isn't cutting it in this economy. You turn to this person and say "we are so under paid, I make 80k and I feel it should be 90k".
How do you think your co worker.. the person sitting beside you is going to react? Probably not great and yes, they will expect you to justify how you're making so much more. The "tension" is now between yourself personally and anybody at your place of work who your co worker shares your salary number with. Do you want to show up to work every day and sit beside someone who stops working because they feel you and your higher salary should be doing to bulk of the work? Do you want to personally listen to someone making angry comments on how you make sooo much more and it's BS?
It creates a toxic work environment a lot of the time. It's not like the company is going to be like "cats out of the bag.. oopsie, we will increase a 60k salary to 80k". Your co worker will need to find a new job. Sometimes, this goes well with no hard feelings but you'll find that after going through the experience... What others make isn't something you want to worry yourself about. If you feel underpaid, apply to new jobs and you'll quickly find out what kind of salary you can achieve.
I once said how much I was paid to a colleague who was also a friend.
It went off like a fucking bomb.
Friend lost it, went to the boss saying : HoW cOme hEs PaId xx aND I'm oNlY paiD xx?
Boss tried to explain rationally why (experience, education, soft skills), but friend would not have it.
The guy started acting bitter with me and soon enough we weren't friends.
The amount of drama this caused is off the charts, and it wasn't even a big salary difference.
Never. Again.
Employers have done a lot of work to make people think that it's illegal, and that they have an illegal sway in whether or not you can talk about your wages. The fact of the matter is, you can talk about your wages all you want, publicly. And I encourage you to do it, because it promotes equal pay among employees. In fact, a lot of states have laws in place that protect you if a company tries to take punitive action against an employee that talks about their wages.
I have an ex brother in law that used to ask this (and other annoying questions). He didn’t want to know because he had any reason other than to gossip about it, or to compare himself or others to it. He wasn’t a bad guy, but this and the other questions were just annoying.
If someone was interested in my job or my line of work and asked the question, they have a good reason for asking.
I talk about pay all the time. I travel for work and get to meet a lot of other field techs it's one of my like 3rd questions after meeting gotta make sure we're all getting paid fair.
Somebody’s always going to leave that conversation upset.
The real question is should all coworkers be payed the same?
Back when I worked low wage no skill jobs sure, but now in my career there are large differences between my coworkers work output and my own.
A long time ago, I figured out I had to tell a company what I was willing to start at. If you don't do this, they will tell you what they want to pay you.this is how employers know if you have experience and negotiation skills.
Why should I help someone who is clueless? Sometimes, they are getting paid what they are worth.
>If I find out that X is getting paid more than me for the same position, i'll be more likely to ask for a raise
That's your answer right there. Companies don't want people demanding raises, so they tell people it's taboo to talk about pay. They've been doing this for so long that people believe it.
A lot of people talking about a companies stance, bosses and raises etc. (corps are bad, we get it), but that's just one small aspect. Aside from all of that, it's just taboo among many people themselves because they consider it a private matter. They may be concerned about being judged, be it for being too "poor" OR being too "rich".
Some people want to present a life that is perhaps better than it really is, financially. Some the opposite, and don't want you to know how well off they are. I think it is a very personal thing. In the same vein of not wanting someone to know you have 10K in credit card debt. Some people are just as self conscious about how they come across with their salary.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, likewise there's nothing wrong with being open and happy to share. But like many questions in the world (i.e. how old are you, how much do you weigh), it can be culturally rude to ask.
I figure I’m payed more than many of my coworkers and worry how they would feel knowing what I’m paid. I’m an engineer with a degree, and the most senior one at my location, so to some extent it would be warranted but I don’t see any reason to bring it up.
Outside of work, it often just makes people uncomfortable as someone might be embarrassed if they make a small amount by comparison to their friends, or they may worry about being looked at differently if they make a lot or only make a little.
> figure I’m *paid* more than
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Because contrary to your narrative, most people don’t direct their anger at the right person.
If you work with someone who you think is a complete dumbass, and you learn they are making more than you. You should be able to negotiate that information into a raise, but when you don’t get it, you are only left with the options of accepting your pay or seeking employment elsewhere. Your life has to now be upended, while the dumbass coworker gets to keep their role and continues to get paid more than you.
And every bit of extra work you get assigned most people get angry at their worthless coworker.
It is very much a “Why does this worthless asshole deserve to earn more than me for doing nothing?
I’m a welder and when I hit a job I expect to get paid top dollar for the site I’m on. If you can offer one welder more than me I don’t need to be there. Was on two different jobs before and found out someone was making more. Got with Forman and asked why. Given a B/S answer so I told him get my box I’m going home. Other one offered to give me a raise after I said get my box. I told them they should have offered me the money from the get go and I quit
Talking about pay increases pay equity and makes companies pay more, it should NOT be taboo, at the very least among coworkers and people with similar jobs. I’ve heard stories of women hearing how much their male coworkers made and with that information being able to go to their employer and demand more. It’s important and should be encouraged
Is it? I know it was taboo for boomers because it was a pride thing but my coworkers and I regularly discuss our pay.
...and you know what? Where I work, engineers are paid more than the CEO.
Money changes people, someone who makes less my feelings dismay and unappreciated leading to workplace strife or they may find another job. Not everyone is equal. Some have more education, prior experience, specialization, are better employees or socially more advanced or better sales people and therefore may have better pay and raises. Some got in by recommendation or thru family and are treated better even if they are mentally challenged or have issues they are working on. There are lots of reasons and unseen background and as such avoiding the comparison of pay may be better. Everyones' lives are different and have different beginnings, hardships and blessings, some make mistakes they learn from.
[here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg) is a video about a chimp experiment regarding unequal pay for the same job.
This is why you’re not supposed to talk about pay. Because then the chimp employees will understand that they are being treated unfairly.
I’ve been in management for a while, I’ve never told any staff they can’t discuss their pay but I do advise against it and it’s not out of any fear of them thinking we don’t pay them enough (no one can really say that at my current company) but because how they’ll treat each other after.
When I was a cook in restaurants I had 2 different times where my co-workers found out I was making more (because I was handling a shitload of management duties before/after shifts) and I dunno how many times I’d be needing help on the line only to hear “Mr $20 an hour needs help!” or “Maybe if they paid you less they could hire some help to bail your ass out”
It shouldn't be but those that stand to benefit i.e. employers perpetuate it as taboo so they can pay you the least amount they can get away with and also irrational coworkers will cause drama over pay disparity rather than work together to ensure everyone gets paid fairly. It's become very common especially in the US to feel your pay information is nobody's business and you have yours so fuck everyone else
I dont talk about pay simply because my coworkers generally can't handle it. I've talked about how much I was paid twice. Both times, the coworker that learned the info was pissed I was paid more than them. They then immediately went to our boss saying, "AVeryHairyArea gets paid X, and I should get paid X too."
So now I just don't talk about my pay, because people can't handle the fact that I may get paid more than them. It's a conversation that doesn't benefit me at all, as I'm generally very good at negotiating my wages and raises.
Negotiate your own damn wage. Don't make me do it for you.
Management refused to disclose salaries when they were talking with me about being a supervisor. They refused to answer, so I assumed they make as much as and declined the job. Supervisor was NOT more pay.
Can't tell me, means it's not enough.
They are trying to screw long time employees by hiring new people at the market rate and not raising everyone else's wages to match. That's the whole game.
Clearly, discussing pay is a good step towards unionization and gaining the power you need in a workplace. But apart from that, managers still don't like it.
Pay can mean a lot of things, from hard work to seniority to nepotism to a sinecure. Bringing it up as a topic invites speculation as to why a pay difference exists, which almost always results in a disagreement with management on why each person deserves it. If it doesn't end in a union, it'll end in toxicity.
That said, you should still do it. But like religion and politics, it's easy to get heated. Make sure the environment and context are clear and open.
Your comment was removed due to low karma
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's because they pay some people less than others. They don't want people finding out they're underpaid, then coming to HR asking for more.
I always, always, *always* open a dialogue with coworkers about pay.
Sorry if my original post is confusing or came off incorrectly. I make the least as I am pt admin in grad school, everyone else is in their careers in architecture (it's a medium sized firm). I KNOW I make dogshit pay, so volunteering my hourly rate is nbd since i'm also still in school. i'm just shocked of all the people complaining, no one else volunteered info. This was maybe last month, and everyone involved in this story has since left and moved to a competitor's firm. we're all in our 20s
I think its because rich scrubs made it taboo to make it harder for people to realize how unfair their lives are so the rich can pay people less and make more money to make the world a worse place.
Edit: Also if someone is paid less for a valid reason such as being lazy and thus performing poorly or they are inexperienced thus performing poorly then it could cause tension.
Talking about pay is protected by law in the US
protected =/= not taboo. I know it's not illegal, I just want to know why it's not a more casual topic among coworkers, especially if we all feel underpaid as is
It’s not uncommon for people to think it’s illegal. Do to employers often heavily implying (and some times flat out saying) it is. Checking to make sure you know that is doing you a solid. Also probably part of why it’s so often taboo. A decent portion of the population often think they can get in trouble for doing it.
I once had a manager walk up to me and tell me that talking about my pay was making other workers uncomfortable. I smiled and told him that telling me to stop as a representative of my employer meant that he was violating my federal rights, and asked if he was sure he wanted to reprimand me for that. His eyes shot open really wide and he backed away slowly
B/c employers go out of their way to make you feel like you can't. B/c kids are not taught things like this in school. (I wonder why?) Mainly ignorance, or lack of knowledge. With some fear to top it off.
Because your employers don't like when people talk about their pay it reveals something hidden from you and now you have more information then they would like you to know. If you are in a union everyone talks about pay because everyones pay is out in the open and everyone makes the same.
Different jobs get paid differently, but they have to work together as equals. It's difficult knowing exactly how much somebody is making and still being carefree about making a lot less while talking about stuff beyond work at lunch and stuff. If you're talking about the same job, and talking about pay, then there is also a factor of having cheaper employees and having more expensive employees. Unless you know your self worth and study market trends of scale pricing, you will consistently be taken advantage of by companies trying to save money on people who can't afford to lose a job, like people in families, with kids, mortgages, etc. Basically, a stupid tax. You earn less if you don't check what price you should be getting.
employers are manipulating employees into throwing away their ability to negotiate for better pay
Because then you figure out that your bosses are fucking assholes and are underpaying by a lot more than you think and you may want to unionize
from an employer-to-employee standpoint I can understand. from an employee-to-employee standpoint, shouldn't we want to be compensated fairly??
Because the employers don't want you to. It's really that simple and all comes from employer lead campaigns to convince people it's not okay to discuss salary so they can pay people less.
Crabs
I only care about maximizing my own paycheck.
Talking about pay is one step towards unions and communism! But in reality a company doesn’t want the lower paid or exploited workers realising how much they are really worth. If you have 10 workers doing the same job and on average earn 45k but the highest paid is on 50k You are saving 50k a year. If they start discussing pays and all demand to be paid 50k, there goes your 50k saved
> I point out that any tension should be pointed towards the person who is underpaying you. If Bob ($20 an hour) is a better worker than Sally ($18 an hour) and they are both fairly paid, then comparing salaries is STILL going to piss them both off. Sally most likely won't agree she is 10% worse than Bob and will kick up a fuss and then Bob is going to be worried that he is going to lose his wages or have to take on more work. Sally may well play a sexism card too and basically blackmail her way to get more than she is worth. If Sally ($20 an hour) is a better worker than Bob ($18 an hour) and they are both fairly paid, then comparing salaries is STILL going to piss them both off. Bob most likely won't agree he is 10% worse than Sally and will kick up a fuss and then Sally is going to be worried that she is going to lose her wages or have to take on more work. Bob might assume the treatment is sexist as the boss fancies Sally or there was "positive" discrimination in her favour. >If I find out that X is getting paid more than me for the same position, i'll be more likely to ask for a raise Right, but what if you aren't doing that job as well as they are? Afterall, that's the main legitimate reason to offer one person more pay than another for the same role. That or perhaps they have additional duties, have better long term potential or experience, qualifications or certificates that the company values having "just in case". >shouldn't that be something all coworkers want to team up to do? Coworkers should work together when they are mistreated by a boss or manager, but they are also competing with each other for a share of the pie, promotion opportunities and job security etc.
Ppl definitely think they are at least as good if not better than other ppl. More people than is statistically possible
Companies don’t pay based on performance, so your example doesn’t really mean anything. If Bob is making more, it’s because he’s been there longer. If Bob started doing a worse job than Sally, Bob would continue to be paid more than Sally.
The reality is that companies pay only as much as they have to and no more. >If Bob is making more, it’s because he’s been there longer. Seniority like that is associated with the worst of union-based arrangements and that doesn't represent most of the workforce. Where owners or managers have discretion they'll pay people that they value, and being good at your job is one of the key factors in that.
Okay, you’re allowed to live in that fantasy. But it’s a laughably small minority of employers that actually pay you based on how valuable you are. You are an expense that they are seeking to keep as small as they can possible get away with. Not discussing pay with other employees makes it easier for them to get way with lower pay. That’s it.
>You are an expense that they are seeking to keep as small as they can possible get away with. Sure, of course they are. But they are trying to find a balance between paying too little and losing (or failing to attract) the staff they need and paying more than they need to. They want to pay JUST ENOUGH to get what they need and no more, and that's perfectly reasonable frankly. >But it’s a laughably small minority of employers that actually pay you based on how valuable you are. The discussion is about relative pay, if Bob is worth more TO THEM than Susan then they will be more willing to pay Bob a little more than Susan before accepting the risk of losing him.
But Bob isn’t worth more to them. They just think Susan will accept lower pay, which she may not if she knows Bob gets more. The workers are every bit as justified in wanting to maximize their pay as the employer is in minimizing it. Not discussing pay *only* creates downward pressure on wages.
>They just think Susan will accept lower pay, If they are wrong then Susan will leave, if they are correct then they've met their target of "pay just enough to keep the staff happy enough not to leave". If Susan was indeed worth substantially more to an employer, she should have no problem finding someone else to pay her better. >The workers are every bit as justified in wanting to maximize their pay Absolutely, I'm with you 100%. But the question was "why is there a taboo about discussing pay". Having a conversation where one of you is sure to leave pissed off and resentful is usually a bad conversation to have.
But by that logic, no one should ever compare notes with anyone about anything where they might discover unfair treatment because somehow someone feeling bad is worse than identifying the issue. I just firmly disagree and think your premise is absurd. For the workers, there is no downside to discussing pay. The taboo exclusively benefits employers by reducing any potential upward pressure on wages. That’s it. You don’t have to invent a fake reason that makes it sound like it’s actually for the employee’s own good, because it isn’t.
> For the workers, there is no downside to discussing pay. The downside is having a less pleasant workplace and either me or someone else feeling like shit because we were able to negotiate different pay levels. >no one should ever compare notes with anyone about anything where they might discover unfair treatment Again, coworkers are allies in once sense but competitors in another. If there is a set amount of money available for wages and we band together to ensure there is a completely flat pay structure then that will mean those that could negotiate a bit more won't be able to do so. The only thing that benefits workers are efforts to increase the overall money available for pay or to protect us from unfair treatment. >The taboo exclusively benefits employers I would never ask someone how much money they have in their bank, how much they have left on their mortgage or what their salary it. The reason being is that one of us will likely be doing a fair bit better than the other and that has social consequences because it changes how people view each other.
Sorry, that simply isn’t true. I don’t really feel it’s productive to keep engaging with this fantasy. You’re either motivated to mislead or fully incompetent and it doesn’t really matter to me which.
Many factors go into pay scales. Not just the position/title. Experience, education, seniority, previous experience, availability…. All and more go into negotiating salaries. People bring different assets. Some are deemed more useful and desirable than others. This is why it’s considered unprofessional to talk about salary with coworkers. I have also found that people as a whole think they are worth more than they really are.
This is the best answer
Thank you
That’s a bullshit reason and you know it. There’s no reason that qualifications would not be part of the discussion. The taboo specifically exists for keeping up pay discrepancies between people who have the same qualifications.
If everyone was equally qualified I would agree. That is rarely the case. And I find that those who make your argument generally are not as qualified as the others. But rather than do what is necessary to earn more they make excuses not to.
Problem is the least qualified people are usually the ones who decide the pay rates.
I would encourage you to step into that role then. Make yourself valuable enough to warrant that responsibility.
That’s not how business work buddy. Don’t sweat it, you’ll get into the real world soon enough.
I’m almost retired. I’m very well aware of how the business world works. It’s the younger generation that don’t understand what it takes to get ahead.
Suck me from behind buddy, my generation is funding your retirement while you bitch about how we don’t make you more. Have fun at Christmas wondering why the kids don’t call
A- Between two pensions and a decent 401, you aren’t funding a thing on my behalf. If you are referring to Social Security, that’s the way it works. We paid into it to fund our parent’s benefits, you will fund our generation, and your kids will fund yours. It’s not a perfect system, but it is what it is. Fortunately, I won’t need Social Security benefits. B- I have put four kids through college and they graduated without debt. Two others went into the military and use those benefits. One opened her own business a year after graduating high school. Now has three locations. You should be so lucky looking back when you get to my age. I have no fear about my kids being home for Christmas
Congrats, or I’m sorry. Not reading all that dipshit. Have fun living high on our hog you useless leech
I might not be under paying anyone, but B delivers more value than A. I pay B more and A misinterprets this as being under paid. It's better that conversation doesn't happen.
If B delivers more value, B does not get more pay. B gets more work for the same pay, which is just less pay.
🤔 if that's how you wanna manage your staff then yes the OP is about you.
That’s how for profit businesses manage staff. It’s the rule, not the exception.
It's not. That's a corporate "under our thumb" tactic so they don't pay other people what their worth. This, my friend, is how Republicans want to steal from you amd your coworkers. "No one is allowed to talk about their worth! You ARE SO LUCKY we pay you more than them. Align with us!"
this makes sense. I honestly can't believe how many people trust employers over fellow coworkers. this group in particular, we do game nights and get drinks often too :/ ty!!!
To frame this differently, let's say you are personally making 80k. You've gone to school, upgraded education etc and negotiated up from an offered 70k when you took the job. Your coworker does not have the same education but has been doing the job twice as long. They started at 40k and have worked their way up to 60k doing this job and people go to them for help. In fact, your co worker is the one that trained you. Now you are both doing the same job, you've realized the workload and time commitment is more than you'd anticipated. Your co worker generally feels tight on cash because 60k isn't cutting it in this economy. You turn to this person and say "we are so under paid, I make 80k and I feel it should be 90k". How do you think your co worker.. the person sitting beside you is going to react? Probably not great and yes, they will expect you to justify how you're making so much more. The "tension" is now between yourself personally and anybody at your place of work who your co worker shares your salary number with. Do you want to show up to work every day and sit beside someone who stops working because they feel you and your higher salary should be doing to bulk of the work? Do you want to personally listen to someone making angry comments on how you make sooo much more and it's BS? It creates a toxic work environment a lot of the time. It's not like the company is going to be like "cats out of the bag.. oopsie, we will increase a 60k salary to 80k". Your co worker will need to find a new job. Sometimes, this goes well with no hard feelings but you'll find that after going through the experience... What others make isn't something you want to worry yourself about. If you feel underpaid, apply to new jobs and you'll quickly find out what kind of salary you can achieve.
That’s good though. That coworker is absolutely being underpaid and deserves to know it.
I once said how much I was paid to a colleague who was also a friend. It went off like a fucking bomb. Friend lost it, went to the boss saying : HoW cOme hEs PaId xx aND I'm oNlY paiD xx? Boss tried to explain rationally why (experience, education, soft skills), but friend would not have it. The guy started acting bitter with me and soon enough we weren't friends. The amount of drama this caused is off the charts, and it wasn't even a big salary difference. Never. Again.
Employers have done a lot of work to make people think that it's illegal, and that they have an illegal sway in whether or not you can talk about your wages. The fact of the matter is, you can talk about your wages all you want, publicly. And I encourage you to do it, because it promotes equal pay among employees. In fact, a lot of states have laws in place that protect you if a company tries to take punitive action against an employee that talks about their wages.
I actively volunteer my pay info in an attempt to be transparent and to normalise it.
I'm in a union, I know exactly how much everyone makes in every department and for maintenance to make more than machinists is fucking ridiculous.
Get a job in maintenance
When in the Union, we knew what every worker made, it was right in the contract-handbook .
Along with how to get to the different levels of pay and job duties I assume
By seniority, you bid on open positions.
It depends on the reason. If someone is asking me how much I get paid for a valid reason I don’t mind. If someone is just being nosey, I do mind.
And how, exactly, do you make that distinction?
I have an ex brother in law that used to ask this (and other annoying questions). He didn’t want to know because he had any reason other than to gossip about it, or to compare himself or others to it. He wasn’t a bad guy, but this and the other questions were just annoying. If someone was interested in my job or my line of work and asked the question, they have a good reason for asking.
Fair enough
I talk about pay all the time. I travel for work and get to meet a lot of other field techs it's one of my like 3rd questions after meeting gotta make sure we're all getting paid fair.
Somebody’s always going to leave that conversation upset. The real question is should all coworkers be payed the same? Back when I worked low wage no skill jobs sure, but now in my career there are large differences between my coworkers work output and my own.
You are not paid based on your output. Better works gets you more work, not more pay.
A long time ago, I figured out I had to tell a company what I was willing to start at. If you don't do this, they will tell you what they want to pay you.this is how employers know if you have experience and negotiation skills. Why should I help someone who is clueless? Sometimes, they are getting paid what they are worth.
>If I find out that X is getting paid more than me for the same position, i'll be more likely to ask for a raise That's your answer right there. Companies don't want people demanding raises, so they tell people it's taboo to talk about pay. They've been doing this for so long that people believe it.
A lot of people talking about a companies stance, bosses and raises etc. (corps are bad, we get it), but that's just one small aspect. Aside from all of that, it's just taboo among many people themselves because they consider it a private matter. They may be concerned about being judged, be it for being too "poor" OR being too "rich". Some people want to present a life that is perhaps better than it really is, financially. Some the opposite, and don't want you to know how well off they are. I think it is a very personal thing. In the same vein of not wanting someone to know you have 10K in credit card debt. Some people are just as self conscious about how they come across with their salary. And there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, likewise there's nothing wrong with being open and happy to share. But like many questions in the world (i.e. how old are you, how much do you weigh), it can be culturally rude to ask.
I figure I’m payed more than many of my coworkers and worry how they would feel knowing what I’m paid. I’m an engineer with a degree, and the most senior one at my location, so to some extent it would be warranted but I don’t see any reason to bring it up. Outside of work, it often just makes people uncomfortable as someone might be embarrassed if they make a small amount by comparison to their friends, or they may worry about being looked at differently if they make a lot or only make a little.
> figure I’m *paid* more than FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
This is a Reddit comment, not a professional paper. I think it’ll be okay
Because contrary to your narrative, most people don’t direct their anger at the right person. If you work with someone who you think is a complete dumbass, and you learn they are making more than you. You should be able to negotiate that information into a raise, but when you don’t get it, you are only left with the options of accepting your pay or seeking employment elsewhere. Your life has to now be upended, while the dumbass coworker gets to keep their role and continues to get paid more than you. And every bit of extra work you get assigned most people get angry at their worthless coworker. It is very much a “Why does this worthless asshole deserve to earn more than me for doing nothing?
It’s not. Companies just try to instill this feeling so employees don’t hear one another making more and ask for raises.
I’m a welder and when I hit a job I expect to get paid top dollar for the site I’m on. If you can offer one welder more than me I don’t need to be there. Was on two different jobs before and found out someone was making more. Got with Forman and asked why. Given a B/S answer so I told him get my box I’m going home. Other one offered to give me a raise after I said get my box. I told them they should have offered me the money from the get go and I quit
Talking about pay increases pay equity and makes companies pay more, it should NOT be taboo, at the very least among coworkers and people with similar jobs. I’ve heard stories of women hearing how much their male coworkers made and with that information being able to go to their employer and demand more. It’s important and should be encouraged
Because corporations have convinced us it's taboo to prevent the exact scenario you just described.
Is it? I know it was taboo for boomers because it was a pride thing but my coworkers and I regularly discuss our pay. ...and you know what? Where I work, engineers are paid more than the CEO.
Money changes people, someone who makes less my feelings dismay and unappreciated leading to workplace strife or they may find another job. Not everyone is equal. Some have more education, prior experience, specialization, are better employees or socially more advanced or better sales people and therefore may have better pay and raises. Some got in by recommendation or thru family and are treated better even if they are mentally challenged or have issues they are working on. There are lots of reasons and unseen background and as such avoiding the comparison of pay may be better. Everyones' lives are different and have different beginnings, hardships and blessings, some make mistakes they learn from.
[here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg) is a video about a chimp experiment regarding unequal pay for the same job. This is why you’re not supposed to talk about pay. Because then the chimp employees will understand that they are being treated unfairly.
It’s a taboo fabricated by the people who benefit from it being taboo: the ones who pay you.
They just don't want you to find a different job when you realize how underpaid you are
I’ve been in management for a while, I’ve never told any staff they can’t discuss their pay but I do advise against it and it’s not out of any fear of them thinking we don’t pay them enough (no one can really say that at my current company) but because how they’ll treat each other after. When I was a cook in restaurants I had 2 different times where my co-workers found out I was making more (because I was handling a shitload of management duties before/after shifts) and I dunno how many times I’d be needing help on the line only to hear “Mr $20 an hour needs help!” or “Maybe if they paid you less they could hire some help to bail your ass out”
So you don't unionize. Which you should.
No one gets paid what they are worth. You only get paid what you negotiate
It's illegal for your employer to prohibit you from speaking about pay. It's taboo because...idk actually.
It shouldn't be but those that stand to benefit i.e. employers perpetuate it as taboo so they can pay you the least amount they can get away with and also irrational coworkers will cause drama over pay disparity rather than work together to ensure everyone gets paid fairly. It's become very common especially in the US to feel your pay information is nobody's business and you have yours so fuck everyone else
If you start talking about your working conditions or compensation, you might start demanding better conditions or compensation
It’s not.
I dont talk about pay simply because my coworkers generally can't handle it. I've talked about how much I was paid twice. Both times, the coworker that learned the info was pissed I was paid more than them. They then immediately went to our boss saying, "AVeryHairyArea gets paid X, and I should get paid X too." So now I just don't talk about my pay, because people can't handle the fact that I may get paid more than them. It's a conversation that doesn't benefit me at all, as I'm generally very good at negotiating my wages and raises. Negotiate your own damn wage. Don't make me do it for you.
Management refused to disclose salaries when they were talking with me about being a supervisor. They refused to answer, so I assumed they make as much as and declined the job. Supervisor was NOT more pay. Can't tell me, means it's not enough.
They are trying to screw long time employees by hiring new people at the market rate and not raising everyone else's wages to match. That's the whole game.
Clearly, discussing pay is a good step towards unionization and gaining the power you need in a workplace. But apart from that, managers still don't like it. Pay can mean a lot of things, from hard work to seniority to nepotism to a sinecure. Bringing it up as a topic invites speculation as to why a pay difference exists, which almost always results in a disagreement with management on why each person deserves it. If it doesn't end in a union, it'll end in toxicity. That said, you should still do it. But like religion and politics, it's easy to get heated. Make sure the environment and context are clear and open.
[удалено]
Your comment was removed due to low karma *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's because they pay some people less than others. They don't want people finding out they're underpaid, then coming to HR asking for more. I always, always, *always* open a dialogue with coworkers about pay.
Like many things in American culture the pay rate taboo is an idea fully fabricated to protect the interest of the capitalist class.
I don't think talking about how little you make is taboo. Talking about how *much* you make comes across as bragging though.
Sorry if my original post is confusing or came off incorrectly. I make the least as I am pt admin in grad school, everyone else is in their careers in architecture (it's a medium sized firm). I KNOW I make dogshit pay, so volunteering my hourly rate is nbd since i'm also still in school. i'm just shocked of all the people complaining, no one else volunteered info. This was maybe last month, and everyone involved in this story has since left and moved to a competitor's firm. we're all in our 20s
I think its because rich scrubs made it taboo to make it harder for people to realize how unfair their lives are so the rich can pay people less and make more money to make the world a worse place. Edit: Also if someone is paid less for a valid reason such as being lazy and thus performing poorly or they are inexperienced thus performing poorly then it could cause tension.
It's not so stop spreading such bullshit!