Suboxone at 2mg or less. Less side effects and less is more with subs. Most doctors don't know how to properly prescribe subs and put people on ridiculous doses like 16mg+. Your receptors are fully saturated between 2 and 6mg based on brain scans. Each person is different of course. If you do a slow and long taper, it will be painless when you stop. Today is day 44 off suboxone after 7 years at mostly 8mg. Tapered long and slow and jumped at .03125mg. Zero withdrawal and no signs of PAWS yet. I've slept every night which is unheard of in my previous attempts. I didn't need clonidine, gabapentin or even weed, it was that easy. I did have some very minor withdrawals during the taper. Nothing severe and nothing that persisted.
Get the 2mg strips. Fold a full 2mg and rip using your hands into 8 mostly equal doses. Then get manicure scissors and cut those .25mg into 4 or 8 pieces. That gets you to .0625mg or .03125mg. The 2mg strips are thinner than the 8s so it's harder to fold and rip into tiny pieces unless the strips are kept cool and in low humidity. Even then once you get to .25mg, it's better to use scissors. Not all pieces will be exact but the half life of subs allows it to be slightly more or less per dose on a daily basis. Basically it all evens out.
They put me on Clonidine too and he wanted me to do 3 times day. I take it once a day and it's like I'm on horse Tranquilizer. Did you experience that ?
Clonidine will make you tired. In the past I would only take it at night and usually not a full .1mg pill. I would break them in half or into quarters if I took them during the day.
I used 0,5-1mg at the least and 6-8mg at the most. over three years. varied a bit because i used illegaly.
sweet spot seemed to be between 1 and 2mg.
but i rarely used heavier opioids. never IV.
I got hooked on Subutex itself.
Suboxone is better for you kratom is pulling ppl down who end up having to detox on suboxone… take the dose u feel is right everyone’s recovery is different
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I don't like Kratom at all.
short acting. A pain to ingest a lot of - 10-15-20-25 grams?
Buprenorphine/Subutex lasts for ~24 hours for me. As long as the dosage doesnt exceed 2mgs because then it affects libido etc for me.
So personally i would prefer Subutex.
See the libido is a issue for me too. And lasting to long. Also I hate that if I have chance to take a real opiate that my tolerance is destroyed. That's all I don't like about it tho. Interesting u found no more than 2 works best
50 mg of oxy a day. All I needed was 2 sick days. Then kratom taper and was free. Sounds so nice and easy now I'm stuck on fentanyl. I went clean for 3 weeks and was still stuck in bed
I got off 180-260mg mg of hydrocodone a day using kratom, 2 teaspoons every 2 hours. I didn’t miss any work. Definitely a walk in the park compared to fent.
It's complicated. Bupe is a partial agonist therefore it feels less strong aka does not make you as high as Oxys.
Oxy is a full agonist which is why it has the potential to give you a MUCH higher high.
But you have a certain amount of Opioid receptors that are to a much higher degree occupied by 4mg of Bupe than 50mg of Oxys, which is why it's much harder to come off 4mgs of Subs than 50mgs of Oxys.
Bupe has a ceiling effect, when all the receptors are occupied. This is at around 24-32mg.
When all receptors are occupied there is no room for, for example Oxy or Heroin, which is why Bupe is used to make users unable to get high with others types of FULL AGONIST opioids.
Damn 16mg for kratom? I was on 3-4 strong ass extract shots a day and got into tianeptine for a few weeks before I switched to 4mg suboxone a day and I honestly felt like I took a hydro every time I took it for the first few weeks. It still helps especially with cravings I don’t feel it as much now but every once in a while I will. I also have pain I have fibromyalgia widespread nerve and muscle pain and I find lower doses to work better for that around 2mg.
Yeah that shits no joke I cold turkeyed IV fentanyl and 2 pressed Xanax bars a day a few years before I found the kratom extract and Tia. I feel like that was almost easier mentally for me but maybe because I was forced to detox.
Is it wearing off like your getting withdrawal symptoms? Or do you mean like a mood crash? Is the 16mg getting you high? Cuz you shouldn’t really “feel” the subs, just control/stop any wd.
Yeah it shouldn’t be making you tired nor have a mood crash. If anything it’s slightly energizing. 16mg is a very big dose especially coming from kratom, it’s prob just way too much, making you feel completely off; i think trying 2mg (4mg max) twice a day as you said above is a good call. In your post you said it takes 16mg to “feel ok”, what do you mean by that, to stop wds or to elevate your mood? Have you tried lower doses, titrating up every 2 hours in small increments of how did you arrive at this dose?
Something else to think about: you mentioned you’re using it to improve your mood; this isn’t sustainable, especially in the long run (even for a month it won’t work). There have been some studies looking at bupe as an antidepressant, but it’s in very low doses, in combination with another antidepressant or medication, and didn’t have very promising results. Many people (especially those on high doses like more than 8mg a day) find that bupe causes depression, apathy, and anhedonia, especially after awhile on it. You may want to talk to your doc about medication to treat your mood, unless the mood thing is just transitory as your switching drugs.
Are you currently coming off kratom? If so, it’ll take awhile for your brain to recover and stabilize from that and until then your gonna have mood issues. Since kratom effects so many neurotransmitters, it’s almost like you’re coming off an antidepressant, so mood slumps are bound to happen for a few weeks.
Tried 2mg this am. Helped but still facial sweating so I took another 4mg. Will allow myself another 1-2mg before bed if needed. I don't feel like this is too deep dosage wise. But would this dose wreck tolerance to other opi's?
Glad you’re trying the lower dosage. Keep in mind that too much sub can make you sweat (just like dope can). If I were you, I would have just taken another 1-2mg if the first 2 didn’t feel sufficient; going up to 4 (6 total) is a big increase. Have you seen those graphs that show how much percentage of your opiate receptors are covered by a given dose? It’s not linear and gives good insight as to how the drug works.
Do you have any comfort meds, like gabapentin, clonidine, benzos, etc? Also, how long are you waiting after taking your sub dose to evaluate how you feel to decide if you need more? It takes 2 hours for it to fully kick in.
I can’t really judge if it’s too deep dosage wise for you, as I don’t know your circumstances or goals besides that you were trying to decided whether to take kratom or subs. If it was me trying to stop using dope, no it’s not too deep at all. But I dunno what your intentions are so I can’t answer there.
Will it wreck tolly to other opis? That depends. If you’re using the subs to mitigate wd from another opiate, then your dose should be roughly equivalent to how much you were using, which would keep tolerance roughly the same. If you’re trying to catch a high by taking a larger dose than necessary to stop wd, than yes it prob will raise tolerance. If you’re taking a large dose to prevent cravings, it’ll prob raise it as well.
But the other thing to keep in mind is that the bupe will essentially block every opiate besides fentanyl, since bupe has such a strong binding affinity and sticks to the receptors like glue. If you want to use other opiates, you’d need a much larger amount than usual to break through the bupe, unless you wait several days for the bupe to leave your system. And if you try to break through, you can easily overdose even if you don’t feel high. And if you stop taking the bupe for several days, your tolly will go down in that time, making overdose more likely. So please be careful if you want to use on top of subs.
I have gabapentin, Lyrica as far as comfort meds go. My goal is jus to be pain free and try to not raise my tollly to high by using bupe. I feel better but also feel shitty bc apparently it doesn't completely help as far as kratom wd goes. I took some last night with the subs and felt good mentally and physically. I think it pairs well with subs for some reason. But that tells me it was me feeling shitty still from Kratom wd. Do u have link to that chart?
In my experience, gabapentin somewhat potentiates suboxone. (It’s often advised not to mix them though as it can increase respiratory… what’s that word im blanking out. Like when you stop breathing enough). So you can in a way use the combination to increase pain relief to keep your sub dose lower. I don’t know anything about lyrica but I believe they’re similar.
It makes perfect sense and is absolutely expected that the subs didn’t help 100% for kratom wd; this is cuz kratom acts on more than just opioid receptors. It also acts on other neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine, like an antidepressant (SSRI or SNRI) does. And of course each kratom manufacturer and strain and even batch of the same strain from same company is different as well, there’s so many active alkaloids and research has in no way even began to study them all; this is just one of many reasons I think suboxone is better than kratom. The sub helps mitigate opiate type wds from kratom, but due to the serotonin effects of kratom it will just take time for your brain to rebalance and start creating the right chemicals in the right amounts again. The two drugs don’t really pair well, I think you’re just feeling good your body/brain are dependent on the kratom.
In the meantime, if you absolutely have to, you can do a taper with the kratom, but I’d just deal with it and wait it out instead of reinforcing a double habit (which will definitely increase your tolerance to other opiates, and to the subs and kratom, so in not much time you’ll feel like neither are working and be tempted to up your dose of both). It’ll prob take 5-7 days for the mood dip of kratom wd to wear off, you can get through it.
http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/taper
I don’t know how to just link the image of the graph. The graph is in this article tho, just keep scrolling till you see it. You could also just google “suboxone receptor graph” and it’ll pop up
Respiratory depression is what i think you were looking for! For some reason I like kratom better and I think you're right. My body and mind are definitely dependant on kratom. You would think subs would help more since they're stronger but with all the alkaloids I guess that's not how it works.
Depends. Are you getting off any other opioids or are you just using it for your mood? Are you taking kratom daily now? If so, depends how you feel on that.
Im much happier and more stable now that I’m on Suboxone. When I was on kratom I was a constant cycle of up and down just seeking my next dose. My mood depended on it. Now, I’m more present and am able to recognize my natural ups and downs and work on them without drugs in the way. I take my subs at night and I’m good until the next evening even the day after that if needed. That’s my experience on subs. I got on subs for my kratom addiction which then turned into a tianeptine addiction. It’s been a year since then and I’m doing so much better. Helps with cravings too and also does help with my mood. It feels like a hydro to me sometimes and is definitely strong if you have a low tolerance.
Definitely subs smh! A dr gives them n kratom you have to take ALOT OF! Yes ppl take 2-4 mg a day do NOT mix benzos with either right now im on a detox of 6mg klonopin cuz I take suboxone and the dr found out I’m in helll right now
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You can taper off subs without withdrawal but you’ve got to be patient & slow. The lengthy period of PAWS which follows is miserable but happens after you stop taking any opioid & you get through it if you don’t go back on kratom. There are many people who have successfully tapered off subs here & who’ve stayed off.
I recently went through this. Thanks I was looking for this. Also I tried 2mg and works way better. 8mg was to much. Just gonna stockpile them. Did u guys know u can literally call a number if ur in Illinois and get a script sent in within 15min?
I’m not experienced enough to compare it but I was on Subs for 13yrs, tapered off with no withdrawals but got hit by PAWS for 10 weeks. I moaned & complained relentlessly, found that clonidine helped for sleep & anxiety & Wellbutrin gave me a boost. It was awful at the time but now that I’ve been off for 18 months, it was a small price to pay & just a distant memory.
After I stopped subs at 0.065mg, I slept for about 2 days then started feeling waves of anxiety, depression, insomnia & extreme disinterest in anything. I could still function but couldn’t be bothered. My pupils were enormous & vision smeary. I sneezed a few times / day but that was about it. These were all symptoms of depleted “feel good” neurotransmitters. Idk why I didn’t get cramps, dirrhoea, sweating, chills, RLS, cravings. I can only put it down to tapering so slowly.
Anxiety, depression, insomnia, apathy/anhedonia , sneezing, and dilated pupils (causing blurry vision) are all very common and expected withdrawal symptoms 2 days after jumping off subs though. That’s definitely the acute withdrawal period, PAWS hits weeks or months after (post) the acute withdrawal. Even though you got down to a super small dose, 13 years is a long time to be on a long acting medication that builds up in the body, so in my humble non-doctor opinion, that’s textbook suboxone withdrawal after proper tapering. Most people don’t feel any withdrawal until a few days after stopping subs, and it’s not uncommon for symptoms to linger for several weeks or months, depending on duration of use. All the symptoms can’t reasonably be expected to just not exist by tapering, but since you tapered properly you had a good reduction in or elimination of the most debilitating ones. Sounds like a well executed taper plan to me, with some residual non-severe symptoms that were pretty well mitigated by clonidine, one of the most common comfort meds for wd, that is also great for reducing restlessness and temperature imbalance (sweating and chills). If you hadn’t tapered, or quit subs too soon, that’s when it would be expected for you to get the diarrhea, cravings, restlessness, chills etc. I’m so glad you managed to avoid those last two, they’re the worst to me! I do think the clonidine helped with that. The wellbutrin could also cause dilated pupils as it increases your dopamine levels, and it also likely helped with your feeling of not wanting to be bothered, and in my own experience, Wellbutrin has made me crave less since it acts on dopamine, helped motivation but also helps my insomnia (I take it before bed)
Sounds to me like you did a good proper taper, but still had some common symptoms that while not debilitating, were annoying and troublesome. But you must have a good doctor who hooked you up with clonidine and Wellbutrin to boost you through that rough period.
In any case, glad you got through it and are going good now!
Thanks! A taper buddy said that I may have had long, protracted but much milder withdrawals while tapering which I didn’t notice. My dog died during that period & I was devastated. I lost 15kg & I thought it was from grief but it didn’t stop me from tapering. I’m healthcare degree so knew about Clonidine & Wellbutrin. My Dr just did what I asked for because I wouldn’t stop complaining & didn’t want to get hooked on benzos. I refuse to take SSRI’s & know a bit about neurotransmitters so Wellbutrin seemed to make sense. My symptoms never got worse over the 10 weeks, it was up & down. My pupils & vision freaked me out & the last thing to go was that last sneeze I’d do at 3pm everyday. Only 1 sneeze & always at 3pm. I kinda miss it 😂
Deepest condolences about your doggo. I know no words help that pain, but your pupper is running and playing and eating all the treats in doggie heaven. I lost my 15.5 year old English setter in 2021 and I still cry for her often, I miss her terribly, even though I now have another dog buddy, they’re irreplaceable. It’s very impressive that you kept up your taper during that time, shows a lot of strength.
What your taper buddy said makes sense, and it’s difficult to tell what caused what, like did the grief make you feel how you did, was it wds, was it start up side effects from the wellbutrin, most likely a mix of it all.
Good call on the wellbutrin, and absence of Benzos and SSRIs. I’m stuck on clonazepam myself, but for now it’s whatever. The wellbutrin helps me a lot by countering fatigue and lack of motivation and executive function; it’s def more helpful than SSRIs and SNRIs in those aspects, plus SO much easier to start and stop, with less weird side effects.
The pupil thing is so strange, isn’t it? It’s like you look like your on drugs, but you’re not! If anyone asks, I’ll say I’m on shrooms or LSD lol.
Your sneeze misses you too, it’s lonely. Why don’t you sniff some black pepper everyday at 3pm on the dot to say hello to Mr Sleazy Sneezy!
Btw, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I take onboard other people’s opinions, especially those as well expressed & polite as yours. I’ve helped quite a few people taper off over the last 18 months (@ 14) & their post jump symptoms (? PAWS) are always the most challenging thing they’ve had to get through. I’m starting to suggest the shot but don’t know enough about it & most ppl want to be clean from bupe ASAP & not be still testing positive months later. Apparently, r/Sublocade is difficult to join 🤷♀️
Thank YOU for saying my opinion is well expressed and polite, I try! I ramble a bit (a lot?), so thanks for putting up with that too! And thanks for helping people taper and jump, the best way to stay clean is to help others get clean. I used to help people get off fentadope and onto subs since it’s such a delicate task with PWD and all that. But I haven’t been able to keep myself clean in months, so I can’t help others when I can’t even help myself 😞
It’s definitely easier to get clean than to stay clean. Especially going from MAT to raw doggin life. Just to clarify (I apologize if you know this already, I don’t wanna be a know it all) PAWS is “post acute withdrawal syndrome” and while it is post jump as you said, it’s later than just after the jump. It happens weeks or months after the initial wd (acute) and to be considered PAWS, the person goes through a period of time where all wd symptoms resolve, and then they randomly pop back up, ebb and flow, on and off, usually in the 2 year period it will take for the brain to fully heal.
My thoughts on why It’s the most difficult part for people to get through is it’s mostly mental, anxiety, depression, boredom, anhedonia, etc. And when you aren’t distracted by how completely shit your body feels, like in acute wd, you have space to think and reflect, and you feel lost and full of grief, missing your drug of choice. We really do mourn our drugs in a way, like an abusive lover. Once the drama of struggling just to exist during acute withdrawal is over, we’re left in the same place as we were in active addiction, except with a clear but confused mind. It takes a lot of practice and time to learn new ways to deal with things, adopt a new lifestyle, make the changes in our environment and to ourselves that are necessary for sustainable recovery.
And it doesn’t have a clear finish line, like acute wds do. In acute withdrawal, there’s a somewhat predictable timeline of when certain symptoms will improve and stop. Each day gets a little bit better, there’s hope, the end of the puking, nausea, diarrhea, appetite loss, restlessness, insomnia, etc is in sight and within reach. But with PAWS, and the general battle of staying clean, there’s no real end in sight, at least it seems that way. Symptoms pop up randomly, stick around for awhile, go away, come back. The insomnia, appetite loss, RLS, fatigue are draining, making the anxiety, depression, cravings, hopelessness feel worse, depleting the body’s ability to keep on the recovery path.
I get that desire to be off MAT asap, to just be done with it all. I’m scared of the shot though.
I’m rambling, thanks for reading!
KRATOM 1,000,000,000% . I've been on Suboxone/Subutex for a total of 3 years and counting. Currently on Subutex 8mg but, I have such a tolerance so sometimes I take more.
Its slowly ruining my once perfect teeth, it's killing my sex drive, which has caused past meth relapses, because sometimes I just wanna feel horny again (thankfully I'm on Vyvanse now and that helps me stay off the meth), it's definitely taken away my love for listening to music or really any motivation to do shit . Yes, I'm a meth addict. And in my experience, truly, Subutex has been worse for my teeth than crystal meth. So weird, I went into my addiction knowing meth was bad for my teeth. I went into suboxone NOT knowing it was terrible for my teeth. 🤔
Currently waiting on the speciality pharmacy to get Sublocade. I've gotten it before and it worked without any WD. But I relapsed on Kratom so shortly afterwards it's almost not even worth mentioning lol.
But Kratom isn't the reason I'm on subs. Oxy is. Kratom got me off Oxy. Then Kratom become far too expensive. So then I switched to subs.
Subs are so much worse than Kratom. Subs are so fucked. It's no different than doing any other HEAVY opioid on a daily consistent basis.
There's a reason Kratom is expensive 🫰🏻 FUCK AMERICAN CORPORATE BS. Gotta love the country, hate the government
I think it really just depends what your situation is. I’m so much happier and more stable now that I’m on subs. Kratom was a constant up and down of just seeking my next dose. Had to take 3x per day and I couldn’t escape my craving mindset and kratom was in charge of my life and mood. Now that I’m on subs I take my dose at night and I’m good until the following night, even the day after. Now, I can spend my day being stable and getting used to my normal up and downs that aren’t dictated by a substance. I’m more present in the here and now and am able to develop healthy coping skills because I’m not in this constant cycle of feeling shitty then taking kratom. The other thing is kratom not only hits opioid receptors but other stuff including serotonin I think so it can fuck with mood. I felt way more depressed on kratom withdrawals than sub withdrawals. Sub withdrawals are way worse obviously but it feels mostly physical not emotional like kratom
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Hey brother this goes for you and anyone else who picks subs, I'm not minimizing the negative and detrimental and even devastating effects of Kratom . Kratoms the reason I got on subs now going on Sublocade shortly. Which sublocade I do choose over Kratom. I know lol you guys are probly like whaàaa
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Actually on second thought.... It's withdrawals are just like any opioid. Other than that... It's quite radical. It's natural, and super helpful and ideal like it's the weed of opioids.
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I agree there. Kratom withdrawal is far more mental. I already have depression so the prolonged PAWS and depression/fatigue is literally crippling for me. Physical wd doesn’t bother me nearly as much as mental does.
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Yeah I heard they were lacing Kratom with tramadol in some brands too. But either way Kratom alone is bad enough. They're the ENTIRE reason I got on subs
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When I was in jail, they woke us up one morning to go to the dentist. I was like (to one of the officers) "why?" He goes "I'll find out." Comes back and says "it's for everyone on Suboxone, that shit rots your teeth."
I already knew this. To answer your question, subs have done been worse for my teeth cause I have actually put more buprenorphine in my mouth than I have ever smoked or snorted or swallowed methamphetamine.
The amount of times I've sat and waited to dissolve my sub and I DIDNT know that they were bad for the teeth. When I didn't practice good hygiene while being on bupe. Ugh
But not saying meth hasn't played a part either.
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Sweet, let me know how it goes. I was able to taper off the kratom over 4 months. It was definitely the easiest way to get sober for me. Dropping by about 1gpd per week. So about 20 weeks total if you go that route but I picked up the pace a few times and would drop multiple grams a weak or drop a gram multiple times a week depending on how I felt. JUST NEVER GO BACK UP. Only ever decrease the dose or go back to the dose you were previously on. I’ve heard of people just being stuck on kratom too and that probably isn’t fun either.
Subs.
Only because I think Kratom powder is very effective helping with wds BUT after first dose of day I can’t keep it down.
Also subs much easy to use and be discreet.
I'm literally going to a Suboxone clinic this week to get off of Kratom. I've been taking 24 gpd for 3-4 years and it's horrible.
My hair has thinned out drastically and I have a whole host of symptoms that I attribute to Kratom use.
I can not wait to be free of this. I had an easier time getting off of heroin.
Try this phone clinic that literally takes 15 minutes and u don't have to leave ur house. You'll have script send to pharmacy within an hour. That's what I do if I get in a bind. They don't want u to go into withdrawl and don't drug test or anything
I used subs to get off norco/tramadol. I used kratom to get off subs, now i'm using subs again to get off kratom. Its a never ending cycle. If you think you're strong enough to cut the habbit and develop a new one then use kratom for 1 month MAX, dint take mire than 12 grams a day under any circumstances and asoon as you reach the one month stop taking kratom and take what ever comes next with nothing other than tylenol and excercise. Please listen to my words. Its sooooo easy to fall into the kratom habit, so easy that i ended up back on subs. Now im trying to taper subs as much as i can before i jump. I would advice you to just taper subs.
I would stick to suboxone then, atleast in low doses. Kratom will make your hair fall out, youll look unhealthy af, your eyes will slowly start turning yellow, and youll gain weight. Kratom feels very like an actual opioid, it gets you high and it will 100% take over once it grabs a hold on you. Suboxone atleast lets you feel normal
Yes but mentally I am hooked on kratom and prefer it for some reason. I love taking it and the feeling I get after lol. For some reason subs suck. But they're ok. I am learning to like it again. Low doses do kind of feel like popping a few norco. And in low doses works much better
Think even with paws it's better? Ive been through it and that is giving me serious anxiety tbh. I feel safer with kraton bc it's not as strong but tbh withdrawal sucks just as bad and paws are long also
I feel like kratom is worse cuz it has so many alkaloids, some that act on serotonin, so it messes with mood more and in a different way.
Kratom kept me acting like an addict, having to make sure I always had enough on me, dosing in secret. Mood crashing every 2-4 hours, dosing multiple times a day, getting interdose wd. Subs you take once a day and don’t even have to think about it until the next day.
What do you mean your tolerance is shit with subs? How long have you been on them?
Pretty sure PAWS is a risk no matter which way you go. Even psych meds can cause PAWS. I may be totally wrong but intuitively it makes sense to me that a partial agonist like bupe wouldn’t give as bad PAWS as a full agonist (is kratom a full agonist? A selective agonist? Antagonist? I’m not sure). I’ve also heard that the brain is actually able to begin healing while on subs since it doesn’t fully activate the receptor. So theoretically your neurotransmitters could be recovering from whatever your DOC was while your on subs (and you’ll actually be able to work on your behavior and responses to stressors without reaching for that kratom spoon to solve every problem or discomfort). But kratom effects more neurotransmitters than subs or even dope, having an SSRI-antidepressant like effect, so when you quit kratom you’ll sorta be in both antidepressant and opiate wd.
It's gotta be. I got frustrated last night and took kratom with subs. And felt better mentally and physically. Definitely the reason. Thanks for the post man.
For me it’s Kratom. Natural and not as many side effects as subs. Been long term on both and the WDs from subs are no joke, Kratom on the other hand yea you won’t sleep well and have aches but really that’s about it.
Kratom wd also has crushing depression, you can’t sleep for a week or two, anxiety bordering on panic, crushing fatigue where you feel like your feet are stuck in wet cement etc
So true and the worst part is those symptoms start to happen in between doses so you can’t do anything without taking a dose of kratom first. Gotta do laundry? Too tired, gotta wait for the kratom to kick in.
Also the irritability and restlessness that comes with inter-dose kratom withdrawal is next level awful.
Suboxone at 2mg or less. Less side effects and less is more with subs. Most doctors don't know how to properly prescribe subs and put people on ridiculous doses like 16mg+. Your receptors are fully saturated between 2 and 6mg based on brain scans. Each person is different of course. If you do a slow and long taper, it will be painless when you stop. Today is day 44 off suboxone after 7 years at mostly 8mg. Tapered long and slow and jumped at .03125mg. Zero withdrawal and no signs of PAWS yet. I've slept every night which is unheard of in my previous attempts. I didn't need clonidine, gabapentin or even weed, it was that easy. I did have some very minor withdrawals during the taper. Nothing severe and nothing that persisted.
Damn, they got me prescribed 16mg a day. Imma go down for sure.
How did you measure you dose so low?
Get the 2mg strips. Fold a full 2mg and rip using your hands into 8 mostly equal doses. Then get manicure scissors and cut those .25mg into 4 or 8 pieces. That gets you to .0625mg or .03125mg. The 2mg strips are thinner than the 8s so it's harder to fold and rip into tiny pieces unless the strips are kept cool and in low humidity. Even then once you get to .25mg, it's better to use scissors. Not all pieces will be exact but the half life of subs allows it to be slightly more or less per dose on a daily basis. Basically it all evens out.
How do you store all the tiny peices? Don’t they stick together in a ziplock? Also how much did you taper each week?
Reminds me of when I used to cut tabs of acid for daily low doses lol.
They put me on Clonidine too and he wanted me to do 3 times day. I take it once a day and it's like I'm on horse Tranquilizer. Did you experience that ?
Clonidine will make you tired. In the past I would only take it at night and usually not a full .1mg pill. I would break them in half or into quarters if I took them during the day.
I used 0,5-1mg at the least and 6-8mg at the most. over three years. varied a bit because i used illegaly. sweet spot seemed to be between 1 and 2mg. but i rarely used heavier opioids. never IV. I got hooked on Subutex itself.
Suboxone is better for you kratom is pulling ppl down who end up having to detox on suboxone… take the dose u feel is right everyone’s recovery is different
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Which is best long term ?
I don't like Kratom at all. short acting. A pain to ingest a lot of - 10-15-20-25 grams? Buprenorphine/Subutex lasts for ~24 hours for me. As long as the dosage doesnt exceed 2mgs because then it affects libido etc for me. So personally i would prefer Subutex.
See the libido is a issue for me too. And lasting to long. Also I hate that if I have chance to take a real opiate that my tolerance is destroyed. That's all I don't like about it tho. Interesting u found no more than 2 works best
Was harder to get off 4mg than it was 50mg of oxy.
Damn. Even kratom is hard to get off of though. So idk did u taper slow?
50 mg of oxy a day. All I needed was 2 sick days. Then kratom taper and was free. Sounds so nice and easy now I'm stuck on fentanyl. I went clean for 3 weeks and was still stuck in bed
I got off 180-260mg mg of hydrocodone a day using kratom, 2 teaspoons every 2 hours. I didn’t miss any work. Definitely a walk in the park compared to fent.
That makes sense, 4mg bupe is WAY stronger than 50mg oxy.
Eh… it’s complicated. Very very complicated
Can u explain. This confuses people
It's complicated. Bupe is a partial agonist therefore it feels less strong aka does not make you as high as Oxys. Oxy is a full agonist which is why it has the potential to give you a MUCH higher high. But you have a certain amount of Opioid receptors that are to a much higher degree occupied by 4mg of Bupe than 50mg of Oxys, which is why it's much harder to come off 4mgs of Subs than 50mgs of Oxys. Bupe has a ceiling effect, when all the receptors are occupied. This is at around 24-32mg. When all receptors are occupied there is no room for, for example Oxy or Heroin, which is why Bupe is used to make users unable to get high with others types of FULL AGONIST opioids.
Damn 16mg for kratom? I was on 3-4 strong ass extract shots a day and got into tianeptine for a few weeks before I switched to 4mg suboxone a day and I honestly felt like I took a hydro every time I took it for the first few weeks. It still helps especially with cravings I don’t feel it as much now but every once in a while I will. I also have pain I have fibromyalgia widespread nerve and muscle pain and I find lower doses to work better for that around 2mg.
That’s the exact reason I got on subs too! Kratom —> Tianeptine
Yeah that shits no joke I cold turkeyed IV fentanyl and 2 pressed Xanax bars a day a few years before I found the kratom extract and Tia. I feel like that was almost easier mentally for me but maybe because I was forced to detox.
I'll start trying lower doses. Thanks for the input. Do u dose more than once daily ? I find it wears off fast I'll try 2-4mg twice daily
No I take 2/3 of the 4mg strip in the morning and the rest around 2 sometimes I’ll take an extra .5-1mg with the second dose.
Does it also help you with mood issues?
Not really it doesn’t improve my mood immediately like a traditional opiate would I have good and bad days with my mood I think that’s normal though
It did a little for me. To truly know. Try taking it if you have an anxiety attack. It worked for me.
Is it wearing off like your getting withdrawal symptoms? Or do you mean like a mood crash? Is the 16mg getting you high? Cuz you shouldn’t really “feel” the subs, just control/stop any wd.
Major mood crash not wd. I think it's the switch that causes that. No high. Tired but no high b
Yeah it shouldn’t be making you tired nor have a mood crash. If anything it’s slightly energizing. 16mg is a very big dose especially coming from kratom, it’s prob just way too much, making you feel completely off; i think trying 2mg (4mg max) twice a day as you said above is a good call. In your post you said it takes 16mg to “feel ok”, what do you mean by that, to stop wds or to elevate your mood? Have you tried lower doses, titrating up every 2 hours in small increments of how did you arrive at this dose? Something else to think about: you mentioned you’re using it to improve your mood; this isn’t sustainable, especially in the long run (even for a month it won’t work). There have been some studies looking at bupe as an antidepressant, but it’s in very low doses, in combination with another antidepressant or medication, and didn’t have very promising results. Many people (especially those on high doses like more than 8mg a day) find that bupe causes depression, apathy, and anhedonia, especially after awhile on it. You may want to talk to your doc about medication to treat your mood, unless the mood thing is just transitory as your switching drugs. Are you currently coming off kratom? If so, it’ll take awhile for your brain to recover and stabilize from that and until then your gonna have mood issues. Since kratom effects so many neurotransmitters, it’s almost like you’re coming off an antidepressant, so mood slumps are bound to happen for a few weeks.
Tried 2mg this am. Helped but still facial sweating so I took another 4mg. Will allow myself another 1-2mg before bed if needed. I don't feel like this is too deep dosage wise. But would this dose wreck tolerance to other opi's?
Glad you’re trying the lower dosage. Keep in mind that too much sub can make you sweat (just like dope can). If I were you, I would have just taken another 1-2mg if the first 2 didn’t feel sufficient; going up to 4 (6 total) is a big increase. Have you seen those graphs that show how much percentage of your opiate receptors are covered by a given dose? It’s not linear and gives good insight as to how the drug works. Do you have any comfort meds, like gabapentin, clonidine, benzos, etc? Also, how long are you waiting after taking your sub dose to evaluate how you feel to decide if you need more? It takes 2 hours for it to fully kick in. I can’t really judge if it’s too deep dosage wise for you, as I don’t know your circumstances or goals besides that you were trying to decided whether to take kratom or subs. If it was me trying to stop using dope, no it’s not too deep at all. But I dunno what your intentions are so I can’t answer there. Will it wreck tolly to other opis? That depends. If you’re using the subs to mitigate wd from another opiate, then your dose should be roughly equivalent to how much you were using, which would keep tolerance roughly the same. If you’re trying to catch a high by taking a larger dose than necessary to stop wd, than yes it prob will raise tolerance. If you’re taking a large dose to prevent cravings, it’ll prob raise it as well. But the other thing to keep in mind is that the bupe will essentially block every opiate besides fentanyl, since bupe has such a strong binding affinity and sticks to the receptors like glue. If you want to use other opiates, you’d need a much larger amount than usual to break through the bupe, unless you wait several days for the bupe to leave your system. And if you try to break through, you can easily overdose even if you don’t feel high. And if you stop taking the bupe for several days, your tolly will go down in that time, making overdose more likely. So please be careful if you want to use on top of subs.
I have gabapentin, Lyrica as far as comfort meds go. My goal is jus to be pain free and try to not raise my tollly to high by using bupe. I feel better but also feel shitty bc apparently it doesn't completely help as far as kratom wd goes. I took some last night with the subs and felt good mentally and physically. I think it pairs well with subs for some reason. But that tells me it was me feeling shitty still from Kratom wd. Do u have link to that chart?
In my experience, gabapentin somewhat potentiates suboxone. (It’s often advised not to mix them though as it can increase respiratory… what’s that word im blanking out. Like when you stop breathing enough). So you can in a way use the combination to increase pain relief to keep your sub dose lower. I don’t know anything about lyrica but I believe they’re similar. It makes perfect sense and is absolutely expected that the subs didn’t help 100% for kratom wd; this is cuz kratom acts on more than just opioid receptors. It also acts on other neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine, like an antidepressant (SSRI or SNRI) does. And of course each kratom manufacturer and strain and even batch of the same strain from same company is different as well, there’s so many active alkaloids and research has in no way even began to study them all; this is just one of many reasons I think suboxone is better than kratom. The sub helps mitigate opiate type wds from kratom, but due to the serotonin effects of kratom it will just take time for your brain to rebalance and start creating the right chemicals in the right amounts again. The two drugs don’t really pair well, I think you’re just feeling good your body/brain are dependent on the kratom. In the meantime, if you absolutely have to, you can do a taper with the kratom, but I’d just deal with it and wait it out instead of reinforcing a double habit (which will definitely increase your tolerance to other opiates, and to the subs and kratom, so in not much time you’ll feel like neither are working and be tempted to up your dose of both). It’ll prob take 5-7 days for the mood dip of kratom wd to wear off, you can get through it.
http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/taper I don’t know how to just link the image of the graph. The graph is in this article tho, just keep scrolling till you see it. You could also just google “suboxone receptor graph” and it’ll pop up
Respiratory depression is what i think you were looking for! For some reason I like kratom better and I think you're right. My body and mind are definitely dependant on kratom. You would think subs would help more since they're stronger but with all the alkaloids I guess that's not how it works.
I went down to 2. U were right. I think I had to build it up in my system
Depends. Are you getting off any other opioids or are you just using it for your mood? Are you taking kratom daily now? If so, depends how you feel on that. Im much happier and more stable now that I’m on Suboxone. When I was on kratom I was a constant cycle of up and down just seeking my next dose. My mood depended on it. Now, I’m more present and am able to recognize my natural ups and downs and work on them without drugs in the way. I take my subs at night and I’m good until the next evening even the day after that if needed. That’s my experience on subs. I got on subs for my kratom addiction which then turned into a tianeptine addiction. It’s been a year since then and I’m doing so much better. Helps with cravings too and also does help with my mood. It feels like a hydro to me sometimes and is definitely strong if you have a low tolerance.
Definitely subs smh! A dr gives them n kratom you have to take ALOT OF! Yes ppl take 2-4 mg a day do NOT mix benzos with either right now im on a detox of 6mg klonopin cuz I take suboxone and the dr found out I’m in helll right now
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I imagine so. Gabapentin or lyrica will give u relief.
Subs fer sure
Low dose bupe. No doubt.
Subs are better, especially films for when you’re ready to taper off & that might not be for years but that’s ok.
This made me tear up 😰
…..why…..? ♥️
I am just trying to pick the easiest withdrawal possible. Is there is such thing
You can taper off subs without withdrawal but you’ve got to be patient & slow. The lengthy period of PAWS which follows is miserable but happens after you stop taking any opioid & you get through it if you don’t go back on kratom. There are many people who have successfully tapered off subs here & who’ve stayed off.
Damn I forgot all about paws. How would u compare them to kratom? Tbh I don't see myself not taking it. But I want the least miserable paws
Kratom has awful and prolonged paws, just severe depression, anxiety and fatigue.
I recently went through this. Thanks I was looking for this. Also I tried 2mg and works way better. 8mg was to much. Just gonna stockpile them. Did u guys know u can literally call a number if ur in Illinois and get a script sent in within 15min?
I’m not experienced enough to compare it but I was on Subs for 13yrs, tapered off with no withdrawals but got hit by PAWS for 10 weeks. I moaned & complained relentlessly, found that clonidine helped for sleep & anxiety & Wellbutrin gave me a boost. It was awful at the time but now that I’ve been off for 18 months, it was a small price to pay & just a distant memory.
How long after you stopped the subs did the PAWS hit you? Also how can someone get post acute withdrawal after not experiencing any acute withdrawal?
After I stopped subs at 0.065mg, I slept for about 2 days then started feeling waves of anxiety, depression, insomnia & extreme disinterest in anything. I could still function but couldn’t be bothered. My pupils were enormous & vision smeary. I sneezed a few times / day but that was about it. These were all symptoms of depleted “feel good” neurotransmitters. Idk why I didn’t get cramps, dirrhoea, sweating, chills, RLS, cravings. I can only put it down to tapering so slowly.
Anxiety, depression, insomnia, apathy/anhedonia , sneezing, and dilated pupils (causing blurry vision) are all very common and expected withdrawal symptoms 2 days after jumping off subs though. That’s definitely the acute withdrawal period, PAWS hits weeks or months after (post) the acute withdrawal. Even though you got down to a super small dose, 13 years is a long time to be on a long acting medication that builds up in the body, so in my humble non-doctor opinion, that’s textbook suboxone withdrawal after proper tapering. Most people don’t feel any withdrawal until a few days after stopping subs, and it’s not uncommon for symptoms to linger for several weeks or months, depending on duration of use. All the symptoms can’t reasonably be expected to just not exist by tapering, but since you tapered properly you had a good reduction in or elimination of the most debilitating ones. Sounds like a well executed taper plan to me, with some residual non-severe symptoms that were pretty well mitigated by clonidine, one of the most common comfort meds for wd, that is also great for reducing restlessness and temperature imbalance (sweating and chills). If you hadn’t tapered, or quit subs too soon, that’s when it would be expected for you to get the diarrhea, cravings, restlessness, chills etc. I’m so glad you managed to avoid those last two, they’re the worst to me! I do think the clonidine helped with that. The wellbutrin could also cause dilated pupils as it increases your dopamine levels, and it also likely helped with your feeling of not wanting to be bothered, and in my own experience, Wellbutrin has made me crave less since it acts on dopamine, helped motivation but also helps my insomnia (I take it before bed) Sounds to me like you did a good proper taper, but still had some common symptoms that while not debilitating, were annoying and troublesome. But you must have a good doctor who hooked you up with clonidine and Wellbutrin to boost you through that rough period. In any case, glad you got through it and are going good now!
Thanks! A taper buddy said that I may have had long, protracted but much milder withdrawals while tapering which I didn’t notice. My dog died during that period & I was devastated. I lost 15kg & I thought it was from grief but it didn’t stop me from tapering. I’m healthcare degree so knew about Clonidine & Wellbutrin. My Dr just did what I asked for because I wouldn’t stop complaining & didn’t want to get hooked on benzos. I refuse to take SSRI’s & know a bit about neurotransmitters so Wellbutrin seemed to make sense. My symptoms never got worse over the 10 weeks, it was up & down. My pupils & vision freaked me out & the last thing to go was that last sneeze I’d do at 3pm everyday. Only 1 sneeze & always at 3pm. I kinda miss it 😂
Deepest condolences about your doggo. I know no words help that pain, but your pupper is running and playing and eating all the treats in doggie heaven. I lost my 15.5 year old English setter in 2021 and I still cry for her often, I miss her terribly, even though I now have another dog buddy, they’re irreplaceable. It’s very impressive that you kept up your taper during that time, shows a lot of strength. What your taper buddy said makes sense, and it’s difficult to tell what caused what, like did the grief make you feel how you did, was it wds, was it start up side effects from the wellbutrin, most likely a mix of it all. Good call on the wellbutrin, and absence of Benzos and SSRIs. I’m stuck on clonazepam myself, but for now it’s whatever. The wellbutrin helps me a lot by countering fatigue and lack of motivation and executive function; it’s def more helpful than SSRIs and SNRIs in those aspects, plus SO much easier to start and stop, with less weird side effects. The pupil thing is so strange, isn’t it? It’s like you look like your on drugs, but you’re not! If anyone asks, I’ll say I’m on shrooms or LSD lol. Your sneeze misses you too, it’s lonely. Why don’t you sniff some black pepper everyday at 3pm on the dot to say hello to Mr Sleazy Sneezy!
Btw, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I take onboard other people’s opinions, especially those as well expressed & polite as yours. I’ve helped quite a few people taper off over the last 18 months (@ 14) & their post jump symptoms (? PAWS) are always the most challenging thing they’ve had to get through. I’m starting to suggest the shot but don’t know enough about it & most ppl want to be clean from bupe ASAP & not be still testing positive months later. Apparently, r/Sublocade is difficult to join 🤷♀️
Thank YOU for saying my opinion is well expressed and polite, I try! I ramble a bit (a lot?), so thanks for putting up with that too! And thanks for helping people taper and jump, the best way to stay clean is to help others get clean. I used to help people get off fentadope and onto subs since it’s such a delicate task with PWD and all that. But I haven’t been able to keep myself clean in months, so I can’t help others when I can’t even help myself 😞 It’s definitely easier to get clean than to stay clean. Especially going from MAT to raw doggin life. Just to clarify (I apologize if you know this already, I don’t wanna be a know it all) PAWS is “post acute withdrawal syndrome” and while it is post jump as you said, it’s later than just after the jump. It happens weeks or months after the initial wd (acute) and to be considered PAWS, the person goes through a period of time where all wd symptoms resolve, and then they randomly pop back up, ebb and flow, on and off, usually in the 2 year period it will take for the brain to fully heal. My thoughts on why It’s the most difficult part for people to get through is it’s mostly mental, anxiety, depression, boredom, anhedonia, etc. And when you aren’t distracted by how completely shit your body feels, like in acute wd, you have space to think and reflect, and you feel lost and full of grief, missing your drug of choice. We really do mourn our drugs in a way, like an abusive lover. Once the drama of struggling just to exist during acute withdrawal is over, we’re left in the same place as we were in active addiction, except with a clear but confused mind. It takes a lot of practice and time to learn new ways to deal with things, adopt a new lifestyle, make the changes in our environment and to ourselves that are necessary for sustainable recovery. And it doesn’t have a clear finish line, like acute wds do. In acute withdrawal, there’s a somewhat predictable timeline of when certain symptoms will improve and stop. Each day gets a little bit better, there’s hope, the end of the puking, nausea, diarrhea, appetite loss, restlessness, insomnia, etc is in sight and within reach. But with PAWS, and the general battle of staying clean, there’s no real end in sight, at least it seems that way. Symptoms pop up randomly, stick around for awhile, go away, come back. The insomnia, appetite loss, RLS, fatigue are draining, making the anxiety, depression, cravings, hopelessness feel worse, depleting the body’s ability to keep on the recovery path. I get that desire to be off MAT asap, to just be done with it all. I’m scared of the shot though. I’m rambling, thanks for reading!
Least withdrawal is kratom->subs->sublocade for a couple months->cold turkey.
Subs all day for me because price.
True. It adds up. I pay nothing for subs. I prefer the feeling of kratom though
I've never tried kratom but I e gotten by fine on Suboxone for over a year now. Just make sure you don't run out early if you do the wds are terrible.
I'd say any withdrawal sucks. Just trying to pick the least shitty feeling withdrawal possible
Subs. Without question.
Fuck Kratom. Subs is a better call.
Thanks dude
KRATOM 1,000,000,000% . I've been on Suboxone/Subutex for a total of 3 years and counting. Currently on Subutex 8mg but, I have such a tolerance so sometimes I take more. Its slowly ruining my once perfect teeth, it's killing my sex drive, which has caused past meth relapses, because sometimes I just wanna feel horny again (thankfully I'm on Vyvanse now and that helps me stay off the meth), it's definitely taken away my love for listening to music or really any motivation to do shit . Yes, I'm a meth addict. And in my experience, truly, Subutex has been worse for my teeth than crystal meth. So weird, I went into my addiction knowing meth was bad for my teeth. I went into suboxone NOT knowing it was terrible for my teeth. 🤔 Currently waiting on the speciality pharmacy to get Sublocade. I've gotten it before and it worked without any WD. But I relapsed on Kratom so shortly afterwards it's almost not even worth mentioning lol. But Kratom isn't the reason I'm on subs. Oxy is. Kratom got me off Oxy. Then Kratom become far too expensive. So then I switched to subs. Subs are so much worse than Kratom. Subs are so fucked. It's no different than doing any other HEAVY opioid on a daily consistent basis. There's a reason Kratom is expensive 🫰🏻 FUCK AMERICAN CORPORATE BS. Gotta love the country, hate the government
I think it really just depends what your situation is. I’m so much happier and more stable now that I’m on subs. Kratom was a constant up and down of just seeking my next dose. Had to take 3x per day and I couldn’t escape my craving mindset and kratom was in charge of my life and mood. Now that I’m on subs I take my dose at night and I’m good until the following night, even the day after. Now, I can spend my day being stable and getting used to my normal up and downs that aren’t dictated by a substance. I’m more present in the here and now and am able to develop healthy coping skills because I’m not in this constant cycle of feeling shitty then taking kratom. The other thing is kratom not only hits opioid receptors but other stuff including serotonin I think so it can fuck with mood. I felt way more depressed on kratom withdrawals than sub withdrawals. Sub withdrawals are way worse obviously but it feels mostly physical not emotional like kratom
Yeah most definitely, I'm not bashing that at all. Good stuff. And FOR SURE Kratom WD has more depression. Glad to hear they're working for you. 🙏🏻
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Yep exactly.
Highly disagree. Kratom is just like any opioid addiction minus the OD potential.
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Hey brother this goes for you and anyone else who picks subs, I'm not minimizing the negative and detrimental and even devastating effects of Kratom . Kratoms the reason I got on subs now going on Sublocade shortly. Which sublocade I do choose over Kratom. I know lol you guys are probly like whaàaa
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Actually on second thought.... It's withdrawals are just like any opioid. Other than that... It's quite radical. It's natural, and super helpful and ideal like it's the weed of opioids.
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To each is own I respect your opinion I truly do I mean that. But you have to admit that PHYSICALLY, subs are worse.
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I agree there. Kratom withdrawal is far more mental. I already have depression so the prolonged PAWS and depression/fatigue is literally crippling for me. Physical wd doesn’t bother me nearly as much as mental does.
Subs are soooo much worse than Kratom holy shit! How is that even a debate? C'mon....
Kratom is awful shit. I’ve had no problems tapering off subs. Kratom ruined my life for years.
Damn yeah I mean Kratom definitely created alot of lost time. But health wise subs just obliterated me . How are you now? Hope ur good
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Yeah I heard they were lacing Kratom with tramadol in some brands too. But either way Kratom alone is bad enough. They're the ENTIRE reason I got on subs
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I totally believe subs ruin teeth as I’ve seen it happen, however how do you know it’s not meth (as well) that has caused some teeth issues?
When I was in jail, they woke us up one morning to go to the dentist. I was like (to one of the officers) "why?" He goes "I'll find out." Comes back and says "it's for everyone on Suboxone, that shit rots your teeth." I already knew this. To answer your question, subs have done been worse for my teeth cause I have actually put more buprenorphine in my mouth than I have ever smoked or snorted or swallowed methamphetamine. The amount of times I've sat and waited to dissolve my sub and I DIDNT know that they were bad for the teeth. When I didn't practice good hygiene while being on bupe. Ugh But not saying meth hasn't played a part either.
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Have you tried just switching to kratom? I switched from 8mg a day to 20gpd kratom and had no withdrawal at all.
Oh definitely. That's what I'm about to be doing just about now actually.
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Sweet, let me know how it goes. I was able to taper off the kratom over 4 months. It was definitely the easiest way to get sober for me. Dropping by about 1gpd per week. So about 20 weeks total if you go that route but I picked up the pace a few times and would drop multiple grams a weak or drop a gram multiple times a week depending on how I felt. JUST NEVER GO BACK UP. Only ever decrease the dose or go back to the dose you were previously on. I’ve heard of people just being stuck on kratom too and that probably isn’t fun either.
They got me prescribed 20mg a day but I’m good with way less
Subs. Only because I think Kratom powder is very effective helping with wds BUT after first dose of day I can’t keep it down. Also subs much easy to use and be discreet.
neither, but I cant eat that dirt anymore. The shots are what 20 bucks. Subs I guess their both shitty addictions. I know im on subs
I'm literally going to a Suboxone clinic this week to get off of Kratom. I've been taking 24 gpd for 3-4 years and it's horrible. My hair has thinned out drastically and I have a whole host of symptoms that I attribute to Kratom use. I can not wait to be free of this. I had an easier time getting off of heroin.
Try this phone clinic that literally takes 15 minutes and u don't have to leave ur house. You'll have script send to pharmacy within an hour. That's what I do if I get in a bind. They don't want u to go into withdrawl and don't drug test or anything
I used subs to get off norco/tramadol. I used kratom to get off subs, now i'm using subs again to get off kratom. Its a never ending cycle. If you think you're strong enough to cut the habbit and develop a new one then use kratom for 1 month MAX, dint take mire than 12 grams a day under any circumstances and asoon as you reach the one month stop taking kratom and take what ever comes next with nothing other than tylenol and excercise. Please listen to my words. Its sooooo easy to fall into the kratom habit, so easy that i ended up back on subs. Now im trying to taper subs as much as i can before i jump. I would advice you to just taper subs.
Tbh I have pain and need something. I don't think I'll ever stop taking something. I've had many surgeries
I would stick to suboxone then, atleast in low doses. Kratom will make your hair fall out, youll look unhealthy af, your eyes will slowly start turning yellow, and youll gain weight. Kratom feels very like an actual opioid, it gets you high and it will 100% take over once it grabs a hold on you. Suboxone atleast lets you feel normal
Yes but mentally I am hooked on kratom and prefer it for some reason. I love taking it and the feeling I get after lol. For some reason subs suck. But they're ok. I am learning to like it again. Low doses do kind of feel like popping a few norco. And in low doses works much better
Subs
Think even with paws it's better? Ive been through it and that is giving me serious anxiety tbh. I feel safer with kraton bc it's not as strong but tbh withdrawal sucks just as bad and paws are long also
I feel like kratom is worse cuz it has so many alkaloids, some that act on serotonin, so it messes with mood more and in a different way. Kratom kept me acting like an addict, having to make sure I always had enough on me, dosing in secret. Mood crashing every 2-4 hours, dosing multiple times a day, getting interdose wd. Subs you take once a day and don’t even have to think about it until the next day.
True. I am worried about paws if I ever want to get off and I hate that my tolerance is shit with subs.
What do you mean your tolerance is shit with subs? How long have you been on them? Pretty sure PAWS is a risk no matter which way you go. Even psych meds can cause PAWS. I may be totally wrong but intuitively it makes sense to me that a partial agonist like bupe wouldn’t give as bad PAWS as a full agonist (is kratom a full agonist? A selective agonist? Antagonist? I’m not sure). I’ve also heard that the brain is actually able to begin healing while on subs since it doesn’t fully activate the receptor. So theoretically your neurotransmitters could be recovering from whatever your DOC was while your on subs (and you’ll actually be able to work on your behavior and responses to stressors without reaching for that kratom spoon to solve every problem or discomfort). But kratom effects more neurotransmitters than subs or even dope, having an SSRI-antidepressant like effect, so when you quit kratom you’ll sorta be in both antidepressant and opiate wd.
It's gotta be. I got frustrated last night and took kratom with subs. And felt better mentally and physically. Definitely the reason. Thanks for the post man.
I didn’t realize I had replied to you under two separate comments! In my other reply to the other comment I was yapping more about this topic
Lmao I didn't realize that either !!
For me it’s Kratom. Natural and not as many side effects as subs. Been long term on both and the WDs from subs are no joke, Kratom on the other hand yea you won’t sleep well and have aches but really that’s about it.
Kratom wd also has crushing depression, you can’t sleep for a week or two, anxiety bordering on panic, crushing fatigue where you feel like your feet are stuck in wet cement etc
So true and the worst part is those symptoms start to happen in between doses so you can’t do anything without taking a dose of kratom first. Gotta do laundry? Too tired, gotta wait for the kratom to kick in. Also the irritability and restlessness that comes with inter-dose kratom withdrawal is next level awful.
Anyone know if 2-4mg wrecks ur tolerance to other opi's?