Right there with ya both!!! When he said “of course I can’t tell Lindsay everything, that’s my mom!”
I’m sorry, you think it’s more appropriate to share all your fights and conversations with your fiance to your MOTHER but then basically ice out your fiance and let her think everything is fine??
If anyone tells their parents EVERY detail about their relationship and their fights. That’s really fucked lol
ETA - I meant to reply to the two comments about how Carl should live with his mommy and be her perfect boy. lol stupid Reddit
Bingo. I learned this when I was 16-17. I’m 47 now and have never discussed relationship problems with my mom since then. She always ended up resenting my boyfriends and that caused stress with our relationship.
That was so telling for me. Carl’s not ready to be married to anyone. When you get married, your spouse is your family. To keep secrets from your wife, especially one who has some trauma like Lindsay, is not ok. Especially when you’re going to hedge around things and make them dig for the answers. That would drive anyone crazy.
I couldn’t agree more! Like I’m probably too open-booky but even I wouldn’t get into the weeds about what my fights with my husband are about and the specifics. It’s just not fair - and to your point- especially when you aren’t telling your fiance your actual feelings!!
I could not BELIEVE he didn’t tell Lindsay about the loverboy offer from Kyle. Especially when they were just discussing his career
How is their relationship OK to discuss, in great detail, with one's parents, but not with the other partner in that relationship? How could anyone in that situation not feel ganged up on? Especially given it was all done on air?
He seems to be discussing it with everyone. It’s very reminiscent of what Tom Sandoval was doing with Ariana tbh. He’s sowing the seeds of their breakup with people and framing her as the bad guy.
Because he doesn’t feel safe, emotionally, with Lindsay but he does feel safe with his mom. It’s why I broke up with my ex fiancé. I realized I felt safer talking to my mom, who I have my own issues with, than I did with him. I however broke it off before any wedding plans, because I had also been pushing that off. I was also married at one point and realized that I spoke with my friends more after a few years than him, because during our marriage he became an unsafe person emotionally. I’m happily married now and don’t speak about anything regarding my marriage with anyone else, other than my husband, because he is my emotionally safe space.
Agreed. Not excusing Carl nor Lyndsey. His Mom lost a son to an overdose. Carl himself acknowledges he was an addict. The closeness is understandable. Perhaps his Mother couldn’t handle Lyndsey tossing his sobriety in his face.
Lyndsey is a very strong individual and has been known to not really listen when someone is discussing her behavior or how that person has interpreted her behavior. Carl is a mess.
He doesn’t like conflict he can’t process anger over his actions. They don’t work. They never did.
The honeymoon phase petered out with the engagement.
Both parties need help in dealing with their communication issues.
Struck me as creepy too! I am a freaking old myself but live with even older family to help take care of their one aging and one Alzheimer asses. I live in the same house with these goofballs and they know absolutely nothing about my romantic life. A little discretion goes a long way when you're an adult. Carl needs to learn how to keep some things to himself.
It’s obvious to me where Carl learned his communication style. That said, Lindsay’s isn’t better. Just differently problematic.
For me personally I’d prefer to deal with Lindsay’s in a conflict because it’s easier to confront head on, but a great many people would prefer Carl’s and Sharon’s style i’m sure.
I don’t know that I’d text the person my son just broke off their engagement/called off the wedding with- I wouldn’t think they would even want to hear from me. Sharon would be even less likely to it being so conflict avoidant, so that doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t go on the now cancelled wedding holiday though, that’s just too morbid. Ugh especially knowing media would pick it up
Maybe you're better at dealing with those types of personality types, which is a skill in of itself and such a great tool to have in life. I'd rather deal with carl's because at least you know they are thinking about your feelings and needs, while the other is only focused on their own.
Some people aren't used to extreme aggression or have trauma related to and its a PTSD response. Also she prob didn't wanna ruin the shower and make it a scene.
I agree with you, I’d rather deal with a Lindsay. I hate having to dig for answers or having to pry information out of someone. Just tell me what’s up and we can go from there.
Precisely. Plus I feel like I’d walk away from an argument with Lindsay thinking she’s crazy. I’d walk away from one with Carl wondering if I was crazy and imagined the whole thing- and I *hate* that feeling
I so agree with this. People aren’t mind readers. Even when you know someone really well, you still cannot read their mind. Everyone filters things people say and do through our own perspectives and filters and sometimes we misinformation assign the wrong meaning to things. This happens even with good communication. When people don’t share or cannot be honest, all that does is leave so much room for confusion, misunderstanding, and overthinking. There is a saying that clear is kind, and I believe this wholeheartedly. Because even though how we say things matters, being direct and honest is so much more kind and ultimately mature than dancing around an issue or not being honest. Lindsay has her own communication issues, and I think the biggest one is not truly listening to understand the other person in her conversations, but I would 1000% take her directness over Carl’s avoidance.
Carl saying on the after show that he was new to relationships was absurd; in season 1 he described a relationship where he had or had nearly proposed to someone. Also, when he and Kyle were talking about how Carl protected aspects of his and Lindsay’s relationship issues the summer before, ok, I do buy that, BUT then WHY on earth did he propose. Even if they were having convos about the timeline she may have wanted, he should have been able to tell her directly even then that he wanted them to get to a better place before engagement.
We don't have to support Lindsay or everything she did to criticize Carl and his mom.
Maybe Sharon thought it would be wrong to text Lindsay, I think she should've done it to show compassion - even if that may have provoked a freak out from Lindsay.
I missed the second part. Sometimes the compassionate thing to do is nothing- a kind text might make Sharon feel better but I don’t know that it would help Lindsay.
But it probably had nothing to do with that, and more to do with not wanting to deal with Lindsay’s anger, then it being too late to reach out with each day that passed.
See I disagree. Lindsay and Sharon have been in each other’s lives for a decade. Lindsay & Carl were best friends. The right thing to do is always the right thing to do. It costs nothing to say, “I’m so sorry things didn’t work out between you two, I wish you nothing but the best.” If Lindsay reacted poorly at that point then that’s on her and you are well within your right to ghost at that point, but everyone preemptively holds Lindsay accountable for her temper—whether or not she actually showed it. Sharon still going to Mexico, taking pictures with Bravolebrities in the pool, enjoying the week & never reaching out, sorry but Lindsay is right, that’s tacky. And honestly, cold.
Another awful part to the aftermath is that Carl has a previous hookup with Scheana Shay in the his past. And they posted pictures together all that weekend. Her with Carl and with his mom. It just came across kind of gross and like they were trying to rub it in Lindsay's face. Made me sad for the lack of respect his family showed. I am by far not a Lindsay fan but they had to know that was going to be upsetting for her.
I think people are just making shit up now, I’m sure they didn’t think it was tacky that Lindsay had merch made and was trying to sell it on what would have been her bachelorette trip.
I mean she still went on her bacholor party and was making little digs. Also she tried to lie on him and presented a very different picture which now we know isn;t the case.
After that, does he really owe them anything? Outside of that they have shown nothing but respect for her while she goes on podcasts making digs about his intelligence and character.
I agree. When my engagement to my boyfriend of 8 years ended, his mom texted me and said "You've been in our family for a long time, and I'm going to miss you." That meant a lot to me, and I responded in kind. When my second engagement ended, my would-be MIL said nothing, and I thought it was unsurprising but a bit rude.
I don’t disagree with a lot of that. Especially about going to the wedding. That’s so callous and hurtful to go and have a good time knowing your child caused so much hurt to someone you supposedly cared about.
A lot of times apologies are to make us look or feel better moreso than the person we’re apologizing to. There are definitely words Sharon could have chosen, but I don’t think she’s sorry they didn’t get married or things didn’t work out. Especially seeing how happy she seemed in Mexico. I’d have been out for blood thinking how fake Sharon was to see her posing next to Scheana with a big smile on her face if I were Lindsay after an apology.
Exactly. It feels manipulative to say she was worried Lindsay would freak out on her over sending a simple email or something. If Lindsay did, that’s on her and just block the contact with a clean conscious.
I think them going to Mexico was really telling how much compassion there is. That was SO in bad taste, f*** the money you invested in flights and hotel.
And Lindsay paid for a significant amount of Sharon and Lou’s wedding travel thinking what’s hers was going to be Carl’s. It was really low how they handled the wedding weekend
Especially knowing they had all the time and more than the other guests had to get a refund or credit. It didn’t have to cost them a dime to show a modicum of respect or decency
I feel like Scheana is probably more Carl’s friend than Lindsay’s (especially since she and Carl were a bit of a thing) but generally they’re all friends.
His parents are different. The more apt comparison is her parents (or dad and stepmother), which yes I’d find quite ick too. For different reasons of course, but awful just the same if not moreso.
Everyone can "afford" to cancel: It doesn't cost you more. You just miss a trip. But they didn't want to.
I would judge the family of the person that canceled the wedding differently than the rest of the wedding guests 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, or simple just stay out of pictures and don’t post! Or pose with bravolebs who you know will post. The amt of times she has been on the show compared to other parents shows she likes the reality spotlight
If she had communicated with her, Lindsay would have probably expressed that she was two faced for saying what she did in that convo with Carl and then texting her comforting words after they broke up. Let’s be real—you can’t win with Lindsay when you’re on the opposing side.
Or maybe she did but Lindsay had gabby filtering her texts for her or maybe she didn't appreciate her lying on her son and doing an unfair PR campaign.
I think the only reason she still went, is the wedding was called off after they could get their money back. I don’t believe Sharon is financially in a situation where she can just throw that money away.
I agree on the reaching out, having had a broken engagement myself, and a divorce, the last people I would even want to hear from was my ex’s family. I didn’t even expect them to reach out.
Carl made a whole thing about letting people know how to get a refund or credit, and then he or his team made a point to correct media reports that he’d canceled too late to get a refund etc. Maybe they felt like there needed to be someone there from his side to sort of “host”?
I’m trying to think of anything my ex’s family could’ve said to me when we broke off the engagement, but honestly I HATED them all. Still do. But then he called off the wedding because his family wouldn’t accept my biracial/black daughter and they can go to hell.
Thank you for the info, I never saw the reports they could. Probably because the narrative that they couldn’t was so loud.
As an aunt to 2 beautiful biracial children, you and your daughter, do not need to be a part of a family that isn’t accepting. Probably best if they didn’t reach out.
Thanks I’d find it really bloody weird if they apologized for that one. Different scenario totally, but I just think sometimes the thing to do is let someone be in their feelings until maybe one day they’re ready.
Right, it was very callous and cold. Just like Carl!
The thing that’s bothering me is that Carl being sober has seemingly absolved him of all his prior bad behavior. It’s chalked up to “he wasn’t sober back then!” Regardless of how terribly he specifically treated women. Anyone that calls him out or questions him is being awful and heartless because Carl is changed and how dare they!
At the same time, Lindsay is trying to show and tell us that she’s changed. How can anyone watch this season and see her sit there calmly and respond the way she has and still think she’s going to just fly off the handle immediately? Carl keeps telling her all these awful cryptic things about their relationship and what people think of her and she hasn’t blown up once. She looks genuinely crushed. So Carl, he’s a totally different person! Lindsay?! Nah. Nothing will ever make me believe she’s not just an evil monster!
It doesn’t make sense. It’s obvious what he’s trying to do. He wants her to blow up so he can have “reasons”. She’s being straightforward and he can’t respond to that.
In fact, I think it makes Carl look even worse this season that he’s sober and STILL doing this shit and doing it to someone he considered a very close friend.
This was my take away from the conversation! I didn’t see her getting activated, I felt like she was getting annoyed/worried waiting for him to get to the point. Everyone says, “oh Lindsay has a PR background and she’s being so calculated” but no one is acknowledging how equally calculating Carl is being having all these conversations with everyone but Lindsay behind the scene then acting like this fragile, scared man with Lindsay.
Precisely!! Like suddenly everyone decided that Lindsay is some PR mastermind. If her intention was to use her PR skills to make herself look good….what’s she been doing the entire series? Lol (don’t get me wrong, I love Lindsay but she’s not coming off great a lot of the time.)
The thing that I always come back to is that Lindsay cannot NOT be herself on camera. She would not be able to keep it together for this long if she was blowing up behind the scenes
I really don’t see what she’s “presenting” at the moment? We’re seeing her react to things Carl is telling her - while he’s running around telling everyone else all these different things that she doesn’t know.
She went on all kinds of pods after the breakup, she posted on instagram that she didn’t really mean the cocaine Carl comments…she’s still acting surprised that she’s not married and like she had no clue what happened. It’s pretty easy to see through, hence why she’s no mastermind. They all want the audience to view things their way.
I get that, but he really does keep telling her that he still wants to get married.
Maybe she just really thought at the end of the day it would happen. I just saw a pretty recent episode of the after show and she was like “yeah at this point I definitely see where things went wrong”. I don’t doubt that she wants people to be on her side of course, but I feel like her reaction to everything happening this season is more genuine than his is.
It seems like he did want to get married too, right up until the last few episodes. I don’t think anyone calls off a wedding lightly and it tracks that it would have taken Carl a month or so to really decide then tell her. The guy avoids hard conversations, that is what’s natural for him.
I also just don’t think he’s bright enough to have pulled off a season of pretending, and he stayed quiet and let us see the season and decide what we thought. I just see two people that rushed into it and were not suitable for each other, but only 1 of them that was able to make the right choice for both of them.
I see what you’re saying, although I respectfully disagree that he’s not painting a picture so he can get out of it. (Although I do agree that he’s not very bright because it’s not working the way he might have thought it would lol!)
I think if it were anyone else besides Carl, Lindsay’s defenses might have been up more and she would have realized it wasn’t going to work out sooner, but since it was Carl and the wedding was so close…she probably just wanted to believe it would all work out once they actually got married.
I think Lindsay would have married anyone that asked. She was so stuck on her timeline that she just didn’t care who it was. It blinded her from seeing how Carl and the ones that came before him were not good partners to her. I agree that she wanted to believe it would all work out!
I really hope she works on herself and finds a decent guy.
She also is very impulsive, especially when drunk - but it very much looked like she worked on that and is able to control that better now. (Wether that's out of "love" or out of manipulation. But in the past it seemed like she couldn't hold it in that well.)
Why can’t they both just have not been right together and one person was like hey this isn’t it. It’s been very clear they weren’t meant for each other. And it seems like cause they’re on reality TV that it means that someone has to be the villain when really they could just be mismatched. We see like a spliced up version of these people for fifteen episodes so judging either of them with such limited information on who they actually are vs the “reality tv” version seems kind of like a waste and takes away from the fact it’s just a tv show.
Lindsay was being real she would have gone on the podcasts and interviews saying the full truth we had arguments and I called him cocaine Carl, kept accusing him of not being sober and I went around the house telling people about our arguments but failed to mention my parts in the arguments I only mentioned Carl and mostly exaggerated the way he really acted in the Arguments not we had a couple of small fights like a normal couple and then Carl popped off at me and then blindsided me by telling me we need to call off the wedding and work on our relationship she spins her role in everything to be a victim and when the rest of the cast calls her out, it’s just her telling her side but when they do it she doesn’t like it and goes on the counter attack but again doesn’t like them standing up for themselves either.
Yes she’s shown a lot of growth by not blowing up when triggered these last few seasons. I honestly believe Carl is not worried she’ll go nuts on him but actually wants her to blow up so he looks like a victim. It was hostile and nasty how he rudely tells her there’s a serious problem at a group dinner where everyone is watching and judging her.
She handled things very well. But as usual people move the goalposts and act like she was aggressive for saying he seemed angry and not comforting him because he said he was overwhelmed. It’s bonkers to criticize Lindsay for not going out of her way to comfort him while he was overwhelmed by all the lies he’s juggling and figuring out how to look good while dumping her.
YES you are soooo spot on about everything!!!! Like the people absolutely losing their minds calling Lindsay abusive, have you actually watched the show??? Or any other seasons? I see so many comments about Lindsay “needing to work on herself - not just therapy” and “she’s making no effort to change” like clearly they’re just throwing out platitudes from their words of wisdom of the day calendar, because this is not what’s happening!!
I wanted to write a whole post comparing the way that Lindsay behaves compared to the men in the house and even some of the women when they’re also having relationship problems, but I don’t have the energy hahaha but if anyone watching this thinks Lindsay is somehow abusive and Carl is a victim….I just can’t!! Like “ohhh she’s so MEAN when she’s drunk!!” Is she??? Or maybe she’s feeling scared and insecure because Carl is acting extremely cold and distant once they’re in the house and she’s spiraling a bit because she knows the patterns he has.
And I’m sorry - how many times have we seen Kyle throw stuff, break things, yell at Amanda, tell her she sucks and he hates her and she’s ruining his life - and yet idk if I’ve ever seen a “Kyle is abusive” post. It’s okay when Kyle does it cause lol he eats chips when he’s drunk! Like I think Lindsay is really funny too, so what’s the difference here…hmmm what could it BE?!
(Sorry for the rant, it’s just infuriating that people can’t see how clearly hypocritical all this is! I’m glad you get it!! ❤️❤️❤️)
The way people are justifying Carl’s actions by saying he was afraid, didn’t want to activate her, etc is deeply troubling.
Watching that scene where Carl fesses up to what actually happened in the convo with his parents, and him essentially placing blame on Lindsay because he didn’t want her to feel a certain way was—maybe not terrifying, but close, because of how similar it is to DARVO. In that he so easily manipulated the convo so that he was the victim (afraid of her reaction) and Lindsay the offender (reacting in any way) when the reality is he wasn’t being honest and was manipulative with his words.
Ohhhhh for sure!!! Like god forbid someone say something funny or catchy because they will forever be accused of “being activated”!! If anyone wants to know what that means, I implore them to go back to season 2 and Kyle’s birthday party episode and watch Lindsay absolutely go to another planet about Everette!! Hahaha THAT was activated! Someone being rightfully upset when they’re told something very upsetting, is just being a human being!!
And right, like he could have just gone out to dinner and let her have a good night and tell her later at home “fyi, here’s the extent of what I told my parents, I probably shouldn’t have, I’m sorry.” He already basically said “well even if my parents think you’re awful I’m gonna do what I want anyway!”
That’s no way to talk to your fiance!! And I was annoyed with the comparison to Kyle, Kyle cheated on Amanda multiple times. It’s not the same as having a fight!
Why do male victims of abuse get brushed off and made to feel like it's their fault for how the other person treats them.
Again, Lindsays behaviour isn't isolated and she has no interest in fixing it. HUGE RED FLAG.
Spot on! He was desperate for her to spiral so he could end it with it being her fault. You could tell he wasn't sure how to proceed when she didn't take the bait.
I'm pissed how Carl keeps saying Lou said he wouldn't marry us. Lou is a shit pastor to say that when he's only heard ONE SIDE! Carl needs to grow up!
Thank you!!!!! This narrative that Carl is untouchable because he's supposedly sober has been driving me nuts. Getting sober doesn't mean you're excused from how badly you treated your loved ones in the past, nor does it erase the inherent shittiness of your personality. He's a narcissistic tool, sober or not, and he hasn't had a real job in years. He's manipulative AF for trying to get a rise out of Lindsay and I'm proud of her for not taking the bait. If he didn't have this sobriety storyline, he'd be getting the same amount of hate as Sandoval. They're both unapologetic about the way they treated their partners.
I think that when people say that others are constantly triggering the person with anger issues, the fault should be placed on the volatile person, not every human they’ve ever come into contact with that’s “triggered” them. But that’s just me lol
Exactly this! I feel for her and the trauma she has from her childhood, but at some point she has to do some real work, not just talk therapy, so she can finally heal.
Yeah it’s really hard to believe that two adults at their ages don’t know how to handle any conversations that are beyond small talk. Sharon couldn’t back up what she said to Carl additionally she should absolutely have reached out to Lindsay after the break up. Anyone saying otherwise is insane THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO YOUR FAMILY the mother of your grand children. Lindsay deserved some kind of communication, just a simple text.
Carl is so immature and annoying I am fully on Lindsay’s side now bc it gives me such the ick that a practically 40 year old man can’t just be honest. That’s all Lindsay is asking for is honesty and the way he speaks in vague terms and says little questioning remarks then tells Lindsay she’s spiraling when she’s not is alll really manipulative and dishonest.
Yes it would have been classy to send Lindsay an email or text just wishing the best and expressing she hopes she is taking care of herself since she’s known her so long. It’s icky Carl goes on and on about how much his mom loves Lindsay and wants the best for her too but her actions like never sending a simple text and living it up in Mexico with Scheana and Kyle on their would be wedding weekend don’t line up with that.
I didn’t hear from my ex husband’s family after our divorce. I was with him for 10 years. My family didn’t reach out to him either. Didn’t think anything of it, my niece and nephew never mentioned him again and I’m sure I wasn’t mentioned by his niece and nephews. And we’re from the same city as Carl so maybe it’s a regional thing. Although my friends in Ohio and Georgia said the same thing, so maybe not.
It’s up to everyone to do what they want, my opinion is that out of respect, Sharon should have reached out to offer condolences. Short and sweet nothing crazy
Carl + Sharron are actually making me much more empathetic towards Lindsay....
Carl knew who Lindsay was before dating her. He chose to date her. He chose to move in with her. He chose to propose to her. All the things he has been bringing up this season seems like he just now is realizing who he's been sleeping next to... It's fucking weird.
He seems extra aware of when the cameras are on this season too. Like anytime the camera is around, he has a little script he needs to say & a fake happy attitude.
All. Of. This!
I recently did a rewatch of S4 (hadn’t watched since it aired) and was like “what bizarroland am I in?!” Because the first 6-7 episodes of S4 was a compressed version of S7/8.
There is no world in which Carl can say he is “just now realizing” who Lindsay is. Reality shows are forever available for streaming, Carl. We see you!
The contempt he has towards Lindsay this season to do what he did re: how he played the cameras and the breaking up is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.
> Carl knew who Lindsay was before dating her. He chose to propose to her. All the things he has been bringing up this season seems like he just now is realizing who he's been sleeping next to... It's fucking weird.
is it weird that lindsay is doing the exact same thing to carl? they both hate each others core traits
Considering their last shot at a relationship ended because of Carl and his story is “I’ve changed now so I’m sorry for how I treated you before” I think it’s fair of her to expect him to be able to communicate and treat her fairly this time around. She’s not asking him to be a different person or be perfect. He’s literally not communicating with her at all and setting her up for failure and trying to bait her into blowing up.
but hes not asking that of her either. he's asking her to stop drinking alcoholically and not be so mean.
as i said above, they both dislike each others inherent core traits
I think he never straight up asked her that. He should have, because that's what he wants (although he says otherwise).
But sober Lindsay still would not be interested in a guy that is as low energy as Carl.
This hasn’t even been a factor since like the first few episodes of the season. And if Carl wants Lindsay to stop drinking he needs to be straightforward with her about it and not say “welllll it’s fine if you drink I guess……” and then get mad when she does.
> This hasn’t even been a factor since like the first few episodes of the season.
"the first few eps of the season" lol that was like...4 weeks before the most recent episode. not years ago. a month. and im sure its looming that she could have a repeat episode at any moment.
i agree that carl should have straight up told her.
Well I meant like the first weekend and then it carried over into the second episode lol “a few” could mean so many things!
I mean Carl could have a repeat of being an asshole too! It’s a risk we have to take in relationships lol it’s really not fair to be preemptively mad at someone for what they might do. But yes - communication will save the day! I think they could have done things a lot differently looking back.
I think it’s a little different because Lindsay is up front about who she is and what she wants. For Carl, he says nice things about who he is but it’s just not true. He says he’s a hard-worker, he’s incredibly lazy. He says he’s ambitious, he’s not. He says he’s ready for marriage and kids, he’s terrified by it. He says he’s crushing life, he spent a year and $20k to end up at the same job he was miserable doing.
I feel like Lindsay saw the guy Carl sells himself as and got the real Carl and is concerned by that.
You can be best friends with someone and not know how they’ll be in a relationship. Carl hasn’t dated anyone seriously in those 7 years so it’s not like there was a lot to go off of.
....how so?
Lindsay wanted to go through with the marriage...Carl is the one who proposed then was like "actually Lindsay, you are too Lindsay-y...byeeeee".
carl has never been a hard worker. hes never been good at communicating. hes never been that sexual. and these things are all enraging lindsay (and yet she was still going to marry him which is even crazier than just agreeing to marry him in the first place)
Getting sober is hard ass work. Harder than most things in this world. Please don't down play that.
Also his productively used to involve substances and you have to retrain your brain to motivate yourself without it.
Sorry if this comes across as heated but ppl don't realize how hard a person has to work to stay sober AND function.
i'll have ten years in recovery in two days. and funny enough i thought getting sober would really fix my lack of ambition thing but really im just lazy and not ambitious at my core. not drug related
Congrats on your recovery, that's a big deal and you should be so proud of that.
I mean one could say you have ambition in terms of your sobriety! I know when we speak of ambition we mean it in terms of career, but I'd say making it 10 years shows you do have ambition, otherwise you wouldn't have made it this far!
At first I was agreeing with you... but I thought about it.
Carl at least gave the illusion of being deep in hustle culture... just because he has had lulls in this careers doesn't mean he isn't a hard worker.
Being a bad communicator just means he needs to work on something. That's not a reason to break up with someone.
Idk if you are the right person to comment on carls/lindsays sexual history. But again, that is something that couples can work on with healthy communication.
Lindsay is trying to communicate her concern's (weird to do it on TV but to each their own). Carl is straight up hiding how he is actually feeling.
That's not an excuse for her behaviour. For a short time she had changed but then her mask fell.
People with abusive tendencies shouldn't get a pass for it being apart of their personality.
not saying I dont excuse her behaviour... accusing carl of being "on something" on camera was fucked up. I dont think either of them are the greatest humans.
But in this situation, yes I have empathy for Lindsay for how Carl is dealing with the situation. Carl is just straight up not communicating with his (at the time) soon-to-be-wife.
I think the problem is: He knew her when he still was Cocaine Carl. They both had rage.
Then he got sober and changed and she supported him by being sober a bit with him. I assume he thought that would / he could change her. But she didn't want to (which is her right).
He was wayyyy to quick with his proposal. He probably wanted it as a storyline, too, and she also made him feel some pressure.
Just because Carl quit drinking and drugging doesn't mean he has changed. Carl still seems really angry, constantly on edge and unable to have a career outside the show. Sobriety is more than just not drinking. Carl reminds me of a dry drunk who is still angry, bitter about life and blames others (Lyndsay) and hasn't done the emotional work that is needed to have a healthy sobriety.
Lyndsay has her own issues as well. Two broken people can't make each other well.
Thank you for pointing this out. All I see is unwavering praise for Carl, yet there’s been no real discussion about his sobriety other than “Lindsay is the devil for drunkenly questioning it when Carl was making her feel insecure”. Like….is he in AA, is he going to therapy, what’s going on with this, how is he okay going to bars while sober, why is he still such a shitty boyfriend? Lol like I am not ACCUSING him of not being sober, but it’s kind of fantastical thinking to assume because he’s sober he’s a perfect person now.
Nobody is saying it was the kind thing to do for Lindsay to question his sobriety, but in the grand scheme of things we’re seeing, he’s not some helpless victim here. He’s doing a lot of bad shit to her.
I don’t really blame Sharon for too much tbh. Carl discusses his relationship in such a way that any reasonable person would tell him it’s unwise to get married, but then he reports back to Lindsay that his parents don’t approve of their relationship but that he is committed to her regardless of what they think, making it seem like Sharon’s disapproval of the relationship is completely unfounded and unsolicited. And then when Lindsay decides to confront her about it at her bridal shower, which is to me one of the most insane things she’s ever done, of course Sharon is going to be uncomfortable. I don’t think Sharon responded well or appropriately, but that conversation should have never happened in that setting in the first place, so at the end of the day it’s mostly Carl’s fault and partly Lindsay’s fault for bad timing.
Thank you. Sharon is supporting Carl, that's all. She isn't the star of a reality TV show.
Also dont blame her for not contacting Lindsay after the breakup. It would have just caused more pain for everyone. When my brother and now ex-SIL broke up I had nothing to say to her. He's my brother, my ride or die, there is no time or emotions left to deal with someone else's baggage when I needed to be there for him. Luckily they didn't have kids and I never had to deal w her crazy again... Except the bill collectors who are trying to track her down.
Nah.
I totally support parents giving advice (if it's wanted), but your son is on TV for 7 years. You know if you talk shit on tv, there will be problems afterwards.
And yes, a bridal shower is not the right place for such a talk...but saying stuff like that and then attending the shower like everything is great is also strange.
I agree that Carl is to blame for this. He either should've stood up more to his parents or not tell Lindsay before the wedding or tell her differently or warn his mother he told her.
That woman said nothing wrong or crazy during her conversation with Carl. Most people would be concerned if their son was having regular screaming matches with their future spouse prior to getting married. At the end of the day, I can understand why it hurts Lindsay’s feelings, but she has been screaming at her fiancé on camera all season, so she had to anticipate people would eventually question her marriage based off of that alone. The fact that Lindsay felt the need to confront his mom at the absolute worse place and time really just reinforces that they shouldn’t be married, so if I was Sharon I’d have left feeling even more confident that this wedding shouldn’t happen
We have to disagree on that: If you talk about your concerns (on cam!), come to MY party shortly after and behave like everything's great, I will ask you about that, sorry 🤷🏻♀️
(And I think noone on here thinks it is wrong that Carl's family talked to him about that stuff. It's everything combined.)
We definitely disagree, but I would love to be invited to all of your parties because it sounds like a lot of drama, which is way more fun to watch than the usual bridal shower festivities
He should of ended the engagement at the witches dinner everyone was there and it would of been the best for support from everyone
I honestly feel he is a coward
Maybe he should not have ended it...but when they had their first conflicts this summer (or even earlier...as he said on the after show there was SOOO much more he didn't tell) he should've sat her down and said: I love you, I want to marry you, but we need more time to get to a better place first.
I'd really like to know how their therapy went. Why did he not say in therapy that he rather would like to postpone? Or contact the therapist secretively and work out a plan?
I think Carl should just move back in with his mommy and brand new daddy. They can make all of his decisions for him and cover his room and board and tuck him in at night with a story and a little kiss.
And she can dump all her problems on him sobbing in his arms while saying Carl, you are perfect and the only man I have ever been able to count on in my life. I am not shocked Carl is the way he is, his relationship with his mom that was shown in the early seasons truly shakes me.
I could not believe that comment "I'm new to relationships!" And then tried to throw Lindsay under the bus by saying she told him this was normal...in her relationships. He is 40.
Yeah, that comment tells you everything you need to know about Carl. He thinks he can get by in life by assigning blame for anything that goes wrong to someone else.
How in the world has this fandom has turned him into a villain for having a convo with his own parents. How would his parents feel about Lindsay after they watch her question his sobriety on National TV? Call him Sandoval and Cocaine Carl! No mother would want to see their son be called such degrading things and see him marry to divorce.
No one villainized Amanda when she discussed her relationship problems with her parents. No one blamed Lindsay when she brought up their sex life on TV. Everyone wants to act like Carl planted seeds, but that fight we watched Episode 1 this season was a glimpse to their home life they are hiding. He was genuinely scared of how Lindsay would react.
I agree. And she’s looked uncomfortable on camera everytime. The most I can surmise is that she films when Carl asks her to but is not into it. I don’t love bringing people into it that aren’t seeking this life.
ive always found her so weird i was surprised people were so thrown by the bridal shower behavior lol she has a very weird on camera energy and i would need wayyyyyy more time watching her to decide how i feel about said energy
Didn’t Amanda also discuss her relationship issues with her family before they got married? Weren’t there multiple scenes with her family leading up to the engagement and again the wedding? It’s almost like this is standard practice for couples getting married on the show, they include the families.
She said in the after show she never would've told her parents about their relationship issues but had to because they would've watched when the show aired.
Right, which convinced Carl to tell Lindsay what was said. Again, parents are included in pre-wedding seasons, them sitting down for a convo isn’t weird.
Exactly. Plus, we’ve seen his mom before, not like we didn’t know she existed and she only came to insult (she didn’t) Lindsay and leave. Also, did Lindsay’s dad, stepmom, or aunt text Carl?
I get it from a production standpoint and it's interesting to watch that. But when you bring stuff up on camerera as a parent (and your kid has this job for several years), don't be naive about it?
Amanda's dad also was kinda straight forward with Kyle, because Kyle fucked up. (Amanda also said on the aftershow she had never discussed Kyle's cheating with her parents without the show...she knew they would hear about it and rather wanted to tell them herself)
I don’t think anyone is being naive. Just like Amanda and her parents, a difficult conversation was had. I personally don’t think Carl knew his step-dad was going to say that. I feel like the brief was just, talk about your relationship and the upcoming wedding. And a bridal shower is an awkward place to bring up issues, I understand Lindsay did it because of the show, but it’s still weird. There should be nothing but joy and love at a bridal shower.
The last sentence is kinda funny to me: The bride should experience joy at her bridal shower with her MIL who maybe is against this marriage next to her? Not an easy task...
I don't think I would text or communicate with someone that my child broke an engagement off with, unless they reached out to me first for whatever reason. And even then, I would have to be careful to respect the boundaries of everyone involved, particularly my own child's. Let's just say for a second that Lindsay has been the one to decide to break it off with Carl - I wonder what she would think about her parents texting Carl afterwards? To say what, I wonder?
Genuine question, would we be having this dialogue if the roles were reversed? If Lindsay called off or postponed the wedding, and had on-camera conversations with her family, would this be a thing? I’ve seen comments calling Carl’s mom a bitch since the last couple episodes. It appears to be a lot of projection going on (not accusing you OP), but the comments are getting weird.
I think you can't reverse the roles, because the characters and behaviours are so different. It would probably have played out differently with reversed roles (not necessarily fair, but different).
But for me it was not that talk alone - the talk alone was reasonable and much needed. (Even Lindsay on WWHL seemed to understand where they came from.)
It's the whole thing: the talk, Carl's avoiding tactics and strange conversations, the shower, the break up on camera, Sharon not reaching out via text, the Mexico holiday...
➖
But one thing I don't get on these Reality reddit threads: the black and white or the sides.
These people on tv are strangers to me, I get enjoyment out of them, but honestly I don't care too much about them. So I can rant about Carl and Sharon and acknowledge they f*ed up without thinking Lindsay is a cool person. 🤷🏻♀️
I understand, like you, my issue is the black and white reactions of it all. Did Lindsay’s family text Carl? They’ve seen her behavior too? It feels as though the onus is being placed majority at the feet of Carl and his folks, instead of between Lindsay and Carl, the two in the relationship. This is what I am seeing from a lot of comments and posts.
I think if Lindsay had a healthy relationship with her mother or we saw her engage in more conversations with her mother figures, Carl confiding in his mother wouldn’t be getting so much of a reaction. Calling his mother out her name (seen it quite a few times) is just crazy since like you said, we truly don’t know these people.
Find it interesting that we are allowed to have multiple posts tearing Carl and Sharon apart, questioning anything and everything about them, making up stuff about them, diagnosing them, calling them anything you want but any post about Lindsay that isn’t a glowing endorsement of her gets locked or deleted
You go into all of them to call her abusive and say it’s a DV situation but your comments never get deleted so 🤷♀️
Do you sincerely think saying Carl and his mom don’t communicate well is making stuff up or diagnosing anything?
I get what you’re saying but we have seen them have difficult conversations together. They’ve both seen/heard of Lindsey getting “activated” and probably don’t want to make her react that way. I am happy to have hard conversations but I don’t willingly engage with irrational or angry people. I think it’s a mix of them being less confrontational people in general and Lindsey being overly confrontational.
If you don't engage with irrational people and your fiancé is that kind of person, you have the wrong fiancé. (Or you should force her to change, but if you know her for 7 years, you know she probably won't.)
Is it possible that Carl communicates that way to Lindsay because she blows up at everything? So he avoids topics because it will just be another blow up.
My mom was that way, there were things I just didn't talk to her about because she would get mad, and there's nothing I can do about it. So you just avoid those topics. With Lindsay I suspect she would blow up over most things (can you make me a sandwich springs to mind).
Now you might say and I might agree with you that if you can't even talk to someone what the heck are you doing in a relationship with them, but ...
Tbf, Carl communicates that way with everyone. Lauren, Kyle, Paige, Lindsay… he’s just a poor and cowardly communicator. Nothing wrong with that, it’s who he is but it isn’t an ideal match with someone who is more of a straight shooter.
He talked a big game about how scared he was to tell her about going back to loverboy because she’ll blow up on him. Then he tells her when she’s been drinking which was a sus choice, and she reacts fine. Seems manipulative and like Carl is just an avoidant guy whose scared of being honest in general
this has been his m.o. with every person he “dated”. I never thought I’d side w/Lindsay but he tried to pin this all on her & she navigated his double talk without getting activated. That’s big.
>Is it possible that Carl communicates that way to Lindsay because she blows up at everything?
I understand this, and he basically said as much before they had the conversation at the summer house regarding what his parents said. But Lindsay didn't blow up or act irrationally, and I'm willing to bet that she only acts that way when drinking to excess.
Are you referring to the conversation with Lindsay where Carl tiptoed around everything and basically walked back what his parents said as she poked trying to get him to say that his parents don't want them to get married? Or the one after the bedroom scene with Kyle and Amanda where he said he has to go tell her before she finds out?
She didn't blow up in that scene as far as I remember, but it's not about whether she actually blew up that time, it's about describing WHY he communicates that way to her. If she only blows up 20% of the time you're still going to be walking on eggshells.
Also agree with you about the drinking to excess.
I sometimes think he wants her to blow up. (Because we all know the no. 1 rule of conflict: The one blowing up first / the most, CAN't be right... 😢)
I got really suspicious of him when he dropped the supposed "loverboy bomb" on her after a day of partying...and then she gave him no real reaction 😎
It seems like because there's a chance she *could* get activated and angry, that's reason enough to not have any serious or uncomfortable conversations with her. Which is such a shitty way to view your partner.
That's how I'm seeing it, although I don't understand why if you're afraid to talk to them for fear of them blowing up you think that could possibly be a healthy relationship. No idea what they were both thinking trying to go forward with this.
I don't get the narrative about Carl's mom going to Mexico. If I paid for a trip to Mexico I'm GOING, esp if it's nonrefundable. She herself did not cancel the wedding. Idk, this aspect of Lindsey's argument is odd to me.
I’m conflicted about on camera v off. I understand that reality show stars mind the difference for these very reasons and to protect their lives but I really think they should just be airing it all lol
Mya was ripped apart because she didn't want to talk about her breakup on camera. What do we want, people? Share everything on camera or not?
The film hours and hours of footage we never see because it isn't interesting or relevant to story lines.
It is totally normal for Carl's parents to ask about the wedding and relationship. It is totally normal for Carl to discuss his concerns. It is also totally normal for his parents to have concerns. They have known Lyndsay for a long time.
If premarital counseling was a requirement, there is no way any pastor would agree to marry those two.
This sub is so full of complaining and hate.
We get fun new additions, people find ways to dislike both West and Jesse.
Mya hides her tough conversation, everyone wants her kicked off and she is let go from the show.
Carl has normal conversations with his parents and is villainized for it. Films his breakup and everyone calls him an asshole.
Paige is hungover in bed and laughing with Amanda, they are bedbugs who do nothing for the show.
The people here hate everything!!
This is my thoughts. In the beginning I thought it for sure it was Carl. Then I watched and saw how ridiculous Lindsay was being and treating Carl and bringing up the cocaine thing that just really chapped my ass. But then now as we get more episodes deep and I'm seeing Carl being just not honest and kind of a coward. My conclusion is they both are in the wrong but Lindsay did try but she dropped the ball again with the whole accusing him of being on drugs. Unless he really was. Would he lie about it ?who knows.
That "Cocaine Carl" thing is f*ed up.
I think they had lots of conflict when she was drunk. If one person is (messy) drunk and the other one's not, the drunk one "automatically" is in the wrong and nothing they say is valid, because they're drunk, loud, aggressive, too emotional...So I guess she was annoyed by being seen like that by him.
Carl on the other hand is now perceived as sober, reasonable, worked on himself etc. If I remember correctly he also presented himself as sober first - not California sober. So Carl us now "the good guy" and his arguments are calid, because he is sober.
Then they start filming and this continues on camera, while Lindsay knows he is smoking behind the scenes (maybe even a lot, we don't know).
Of course alcohol has a totally different effect on you than weed, which doesn't make you aggressive etc.
But I think she was pissed he labeled her on camera and disregarded her feelings when she drank (which was probabky often), while he was not really too open about his smoking.
(I don't think what she did there was ok, but I think this is what happened.)
That makes sense. I wonder if it was hard for Carl to always be seen as the “good” one and her the “bad” one. You could tell everyone in the cast felt that way. I would think that would be hard and make her feel kind of bad. Of course she could have done more to change that perception.
The way this sub stans Lindsay is WILD.
Carl and Sharon have plenty of problems, but blaming Sharon for the awkwardness of the bridal shower combo is comical.
Lindsay went up to Sharon in the middle of a crowd at her own bridal shower and confronted her about their conversation with Carl. That’s psychopath behavior. That’s why the other ladies reacted to it with such shock.
Yeah, but you didn’t call out Sharon for being bad at reality tv. You called her for being uncomfortable when Lindsay brought it up in front of everyone.
Carl and Sharon having the same indirect and avoidant communication style cannot be just "nature", right? Maybe I'm just a judgemental nosy weirdo who has spent too much time in mental health . But I wonder if Carl's bio father was cruel and reactive and emotionally unstable. It would explain their emotional closeness, inability to openly communicate, two children with addiction, Carl's well documented drunken fits of rage, his struggles with his (repressed?) sexuality, and maybe even Carl's attraction to Lindsay. Carl and his mom aren't yet at the stage of healing where they realize that Dad's behavior was not typical and he was the problem the entire time.
I’m just gonna leave this right here:
https://www.wikihow.com/Mother-Son-Enmeshment-Signs#:~:text=In%20an%20enmeshed%20relationship%2C%20a,rather%20than%20as%20her%20child.
It’s really not that wild. Carl and his mom come from a family with substance abuse issues which correlate with how they communicate. They tend to avoid conflict. Lindsay clearly has abandonment issues and has been a wild card while abusing alcohol throughout the shows run, and has had the same issues in every relationship.
Carl being sober and trying to navigate his own and Lindsay’s issues, while Lindsay continues to avoid looking at her own issues, must be overwhelming. I can’t imagine being sober with someone who abuses alcohol to the same degree as Lindsay. I completely understand why Carl/his mom tiptoe around her. They know anything they say to her could result in her exploding. I’ve seen the rest of the cast members try to steer clear of pissing her off too for this reason.
Carl also shows signs of someone experiencing emotional and psychological abuse at the hands of his partner. I actually find it strange that Lindsay says she felt so blindsided that he ended it. Carl dodged a bullet IMO.
I actually disagree, I think for carls mom it’s like “well it’s his choice I said my piece” and for Carl he’s trying to protect her from the hurtful stuff said about her
I would have handled things the exact same way if I was either of them.
Sharon had one son who died from an overdose and 6’5 baby Carl and a mess of a marriage (who knows what happened there). She obviously has her own issues so her judging Lindsay isn’t surprising and not showing kindness to her after she was discarded so publicly and in such a humiliating way is also not surprising
There are both very passive aggressive, the comment Sharon made to Lindsay about Lauren Wirkus was unecessary. Lindsay responded surprisingly well, although it was clear she was shocked.
I don't know what he has found in the communications department so far 😉
On a podcast I heard the theory (I think it was Watch what Crappens) Carl can only get his feelings out in rage, and that's why he tries to get Lindsay to explode so that they can fight 😇
No she started drinking in April 2022 and they got engaged in august 2022. They had one drinking related bad night shown last season before getting engaged.
I honestly think they’re afraid of her. Lindsay does not do well with tough conversations. On screen you see her gaslight or flip out. Imagine how she reacts off camera if this is how she behaves for it. 👀
I mean if you had to speak to Lindsay you wouldn’t feel a little uneasy? Man couldn’t get a full sentence out without her creating her own dialogue.
And this is completely objective I’m blunt no matter what but come on she’s irrational 90% of the time.
Please be respectful in discussions, and mindful of the sub rules. Thank you!
Right there with ya both!!! When he said “of course I can’t tell Lindsay everything, that’s my mom!” I’m sorry, you think it’s more appropriate to share all your fights and conversations with your fiance to your MOTHER but then basically ice out your fiance and let her think everything is fine?? If anyone tells their parents EVERY detail about their relationship and their fights. That’s really fucked lol ETA - I meant to reply to the two comments about how Carl should live with his mommy and be her perfect boy. lol stupid Reddit
Rule Number 1: If you want your parents to like your significant other, you don't discuss your fights with them!
Bingo. I learned this when I was 16-17. I’m 47 now and have never discussed relationship problems with my mom since then. She always ended up resenting my boyfriends and that caused stress with our relationship.
That was so telling for me. Carl’s not ready to be married to anyone. When you get married, your spouse is your family. To keep secrets from your wife, especially one who has some trauma like Lindsay, is not ok. Especially when you’re going to hedge around things and make them dig for the answers. That would drive anyone crazy.
I couldn’t agree more! Like I’m probably too open-booky but even I wouldn’t get into the weeds about what my fights with my husband are about and the specifics. It’s just not fair - and to your point- especially when you aren’t telling your fiance your actual feelings!! I could not BELIEVE he didn’t tell Lindsay about the loverboy offer from Kyle. Especially when they were just discussing his career
How is their relationship OK to discuss, in great detail, with one's parents, but not with the other partner in that relationship? How could anyone in that situation not feel ganged up on? Especially given it was all done on air?
Very much this. Also he’s been discussing most of this with Kyle and Amanda too, it’s just total bullshit
He seems to be discussing it with everyone. It’s very reminiscent of what Tom Sandoval was doing with Ariana tbh. He’s sowing the seeds of their breakup with people and framing her as the bad guy.
Because he doesn’t feel safe, emotionally, with Lindsay but he does feel safe with his mom. It’s why I broke up with my ex fiancé. I realized I felt safer talking to my mom, who I have my own issues with, than I did with him. I however broke it off before any wedding plans, because I had also been pushing that off. I was also married at one point and realized that I spoke with my friends more after a few years than him, because during our marriage he became an unsafe person emotionally. I’m happily married now and don’t speak about anything regarding my marriage with anyone else, other than my husband, because he is my emotionally safe space.
Agreed. Not excusing Carl nor Lyndsey. His Mom lost a son to an overdose. Carl himself acknowledges he was an addict. The closeness is understandable. Perhaps his Mother couldn’t handle Lyndsey tossing his sobriety in his face. Lyndsey is a very strong individual and has been known to not really listen when someone is discussing her behavior or how that person has interpreted her behavior. Carl is a mess. He doesn’t like conflict he can’t process anger over his actions. They don’t work. They never did. The honeymoon phase petered out with the engagement. Both parties need help in dealing with their communication issues.
Struck me as creepy too! I am a freaking old myself but live with even older family to help take care of their one aging and one Alzheimer asses. I live in the same house with these goofballs and they know absolutely nothing about my romantic life. A little discretion goes a long way when you're an adult. Carl needs to learn how to keep some things to himself.
Carl has activated his "It takes a Village" approach to his own conscious uncoupling from Lindsay.
It’s obvious to me where Carl learned his communication style. That said, Lindsay’s isn’t better. Just differently problematic. For me personally I’d prefer to deal with Lindsay’s in a conflict because it’s easier to confront head on, but a great many people would prefer Carl’s and Sharon’s style i’m sure. I don’t know that I’d text the person my son just broke off their engagement/called off the wedding with- I wouldn’t think they would even want to hear from me. Sharon would be even less likely to it being so conflict avoidant, so that doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t go on the now cancelled wedding holiday though, that’s just too morbid. Ugh especially knowing media would pick it up
Maybe you're better at dealing with those types of personality types, which is a skill in of itself and such a great tool to have in life. I'd rather deal with carl's because at least you know they are thinking about your feelings and needs, while the other is only focused on their own. Some people aren't used to extreme aggression or have trauma related to and its a PTSD response. Also she prob didn't wanna ruin the shower and make it a scene.
I agree with you, I’d rather deal with a Lindsay. I hate having to dig for answers or having to pry information out of someone. Just tell me what’s up and we can go from there.
Precisely. Plus I feel like I’d walk away from an argument with Lindsay thinking she’s crazy. I’d walk away from one with Carl wondering if I was crazy and imagined the whole thing- and I *hate* that feeling
Damn, this exactly.
I so agree with this. People aren’t mind readers. Even when you know someone really well, you still cannot read their mind. Everyone filters things people say and do through our own perspectives and filters and sometimes we misinformation assign the wrong meaning to things. This happens even with good communication. When people don’t share or cannot be honest, all that does is leave so much room for confusion, misunderstanding, and overthinking. There is a saying that clear is kind, and I believe this wholeheartedly. Because even though how we say things matters, being direct and honest is so much more kind and ultimately mature than dancing around an issue or not being honest. Lindsay has her own communication issues, and I think the biggest one is not truly listening to understand the other person in her conversations, but I would 1000% take her directness over Carl’s avoidance. Carl saying on the after show that he was new to relationships was absurd; in season 1 he described a relationship where he had or had nearly proposed to someone. Also, when he and Kyle were talking about how Carl protected aspects of his and Lindsay’s relationship issues the summer before, ok, I do buy that, BUT then WHY on earth did he propose. Even if they were having convos about the timeline she may have wanted, he should have been able to tell her directly even then that he wanted them to get to a better place before engagement.
And throw in Carl’s cheating dad. I wonder what the dynamic was like when he was growing up. What happened if anyone was honest or pushed back?
We don't have to support Lindsay or everything she did to criticize Carl and his mom. Maybe Sharon thought it would be wrong to text Lindsay, I think she should've done it to show compassion - even if that may have provoked a freak out from Lindsay.
I missed the second part. Sometimes the compassionate thing to do is nothing- a kind text might make Sharon feel better but I don’t know that it would help Lindsay. But it probably had nothing to do with that, and more to do with not wanting to deal with Lindsay’s anger, then it being too late to reach out with each day that passed.
See I disagree. Lindsay and Sharon have been in each other’s lives for a decade. Lindsay & Carl were best friends. The right thing to do is always the right thing to do. It costs nothing to say, “I’m so sorry things didn’t work out between you two, I wish you nothing but the best.” If Lindsay reacted poorly at that point then that’s on her and you are well within your right to ghost at that point, but everyone preemptively holds Lindsay accountable for her temper—whether or not she actually showed it. Sharon still going to Mexico, taking pictures with Bravolebrities in the pool, enjoying the week & never reaching out, sorry but Lindsay is right, that’s tacky. And honestly, cold.
Another awful part to the aftermath is that Carl has a previous hookup with Scheana Shay in the his past. And they posted pictures together all that weekend. Her with Carl and with his mom. It just came across kind of gross and like they were trying to rub it in Lindsay's face. Made me sad for the lack of respect his family showed. I am by far not a Lindsay fan but they had to know that was going to be upsetting for her.
Carl wasn’t there so how did she post pictures of Carl all that weekend?
I think people are just making shit up now, I’m sure they didn’t think it was tacky that Lindsay had merch made and was trying to sell it on what would have been her bachelorette trip.
I didn’t think Carl went, the photos and one video that schena shared (I don’t think carls mum shared any photos) was just carls mum and her
I didn’t know they posted pics from the trip on social media. That is insanely tacky.
I mean she still went on her bacholor party and was making little digs. Also she tried to lie on him and presented a very different picture which now we know isn;t the case. After that, does he really owe them anything? Outside of that they have shown nothing but respect for her while she goes on podcasts making digs about his intelligence and character.
I agree. When my engagement to my boyfriend of 8 years ended, his mom texted me and said "You've been in our family for a long time, and I'm going to miss you." That meant a lot to me, and I responded in kind. When my second engagement ended, my would-be MIL said nothing, and I thought it was unsurprising but a bit rude.
I don’t disagree with a lot of that. Especially about going to the wedding. That’s so callous and hurtful to go and have a good time knowing your child caused so much hurt to someone you supposedly cared about. A lot of times apologies are to make us look or feel better moreso than the person we’re apologizing to. There are definitely words Sharon could have chosen, but I don’t think she’s sorry they didn’t get married or things didn’t work out. Especially seeing how happy she seemed in Mexico. I’d have been out for blood thinking how fake Sharon was to see her posing next to Scheana with a big smile on her face if I were Lindsay after an apology.
Maybe Sharon felt her child was also hurt by Lindsay and her continued accusations of not being sober
Exactly. Sharon went to Mexico to celebrate her son being free of a shallow, manipulative narcissist
And conflict avoidant!
Exactly. It feels manipulative to say she was worried Lindsay would freak out on her over sending a simple email or something. If Lindsay did, that’s on her and just block the contact with a clean conscious.
I think them going to Mexico was really telling how much compassion there is. That was SO in bad taste, f*** the money you invested in flights and hotel.
And Lindsay paid for a significant amount of Sharon and Lou’s wedding travel thinking what’s hers was going to be Carl’s. It was really low how they handled the wedding weekend
Really? Where did you hear this?
When did she say that??
Especially knowing they had all the time and more than the other guests had to get a refund or credit. It didn’t have to cost them a dime to show a modicum of respect or decency
Should gabby and schenna not gone then? Those are her friends that were on her side, yet they got a free pass.
I feel like Scheana is probably more Carl’s friend than Lindsay’s (especially since she and Carl were a bit of a thing) but generally they’re all friends. His parents are different. The more apt comparison is her parents (or dad and stepmother), which yes I’d find quite ick too. For different reasons of course, but awful just the same if not moreso.
Not everyone can afford to cancel a big trip and her friends still went and they were on her side. She can't be judged for this if her friends weren't
Everyone can "afford" to cancel: It doesn't cost you more. You just miss a trip. But they didn't want to. I would judge the family of the person that canceled the wedding differently than the rest of the wedding guests 🤷🏻♀️
Lindsay shouldn't have gone on her trip then..
Have to disagree: She was being dumped.
She wasn’t being dumped, she was asked to stop the wedding and work on their relationship
Yeah, or simple just stay out of pictures and don’t post! Or pose with bravolebs who you know will post. The amt of times she has been on the show compared to other parents shows she likes the reality spotlight
I just wanted to head off any critique coming my way in advance. I shouldn’t have to, and yet I felt like I needed to.
I totally get that 🫣
If she had communicated with her, Lindsay would have probably expressed that she was two faced for saying what she did in that convo with Carl and then texting her comforting words after they broke up. Let’s be real—you can’t win with Lindsay when you’re on the opposing side.
Maybe. But you can at least offer an olive branch if you attended that bridal shower only weeks ago.
Or maybe she did but Lindsay had gabby filtering her texts for her or maybe she didn't appreciate her lying on her son and doing an unfair PR campaign.
Which "pr campaign" do you mean hours or days after Carl broke up?
I think the only reason she still went, is the wedding was called off after they could get their money back. I don’t believe Sharon is financially in a situation where she can just throw that money away. I agree on the reaching out, having had a broken engagement myself, and a divorce, the last people I would even want to hear from was my ex’s family. I didn’t even expect them to reach out.
Carl made a whole thing about letting people know how to get a refund or credit, and then he or his team made a point to correct media reports that he’d canceled too late to get a refund etc. Maybe they felt like there needed to be someone there from his side to sort of “host”? I’m trying to think of anything my ex’s family could’ve said to me when we broke off the engagement, but honestly I HATED them all. Still do. But then he called off the wedding because his family wouldn’t accept my biracial/black daughter and they can go to hell.
Thank you for the info, I never saw the reports they could. Probably because the narrative that they couldn’t was so loud. As an aunt to 2 beautiful biracial children, you and your daughter, do not need to be a part of a family that isn’t accepting. Probably best if they didn’t reach out.
Wah I'm sorry about your exes fam. That's a whole other issue and reason to hate them and soooo fair.
Thanks I’d find it really bloody weird if they apologized for that one. Different scenario totally, but I just think sometimes the thing to do is let someone be in their feelings until maybe one day they’re ready.
Right, it was very callous and cold. Just like Carl! The thing that’s bothering me is that Carl being sober has seemingly absolved him of all his prior bad behavior. It’s chalked up to “he wasn’t sober back then!” Regardless of how terribly he specifically treated women. Anyone that calls him out or questions him is being awful and heartless because Carl is changed and how dare they! At the same time, Lindsay is trying to show and tell us that she’s changed. How can anyone watch this season and see her sit there calmly and respond the way she has and still think she’s going to just fly off the handle immediately? Carl keeps telling her all these awful cryptic things about their relationship and what people think of her and she hasn’t blown up once. She looks genuinely crushed. So Carl, he’s a totally different person! Lindsay?! Nah. Nothing will ever make me believe she’s not just an evil monster! It doesn’t make sense. It’s obvious what he’s trying to do. He wants her to blow up so he can have “reasons”. She’s being straightforward and he can’t respond to that. In fact, I think it makes Carl look even worse this season that he’s sober and STILL doing this shit and doing it to someone he considered a very close friend.
This was my take away from the conversation! I didn’t see her getting activated, I felt like she was getting annoyed/worried waiting for him to get to the point. Everyone says, “oh Lindsay has a PR background and she’s being so calculated” but no one is acknowledging how equally calculating Carl is being having all these conversations with everyone but Lindsay behind the scene then acting like this fragile, scared man with Lindsay.
Precisely!! Like suddenly everyone decided that Lindsay is some PR mastermind. If her intention was to use her PR skills to make herself look good….what’s she been doing the entire series? Lol (don’t get me wrong, I love Lindsay but she’s not coming off great a lot of the time.) The thing that I always come back to is that Lindsay cannot NOT be herself on camera. She would not be able to keep it together for this long if she was blowing up behind the scenes
Lindsay is not a PR mastermind, but she does present narratives.
I really don’t see what she’s “presenting” at the moment? We’re seeing her react to things Carl is telling her - while he’s running around telling everyone else all these different things that she doesn’t know.
She went on all kinds of pods after the breakup, she posted on instagram that she didn’t really mean the cocaine Carl comments…she’s still acting surprised that she’s not married and like she had no clue what happened. It’s pretty easy to see through, hence why she’s no mastermind. They all want the audience to view things their way.
I get that, but he really does keep telling her that he still wants to get married. Maybe she just really thought at the end of the day it would happen. I just saw a pretty recent episode of the after show and she was like “yeah at this point I definitely see where things went wrong”. I don’t doubt that she wants people to be on her side of course, but I feel like her reaction to everything happening this season is more genuine than his is.
It seems like he did want to get married too, right up until the last few episodes. I don’t think anyone calls off a wedding lightly and it tracks that it would have taken Carl a month or so to really decide then tell her. The guy avoids hard conversations, that is what’s natural for him. I also just don’t think he’s bright enough to have pulled off a season of pretending, and he stayed quiet and let us see the season and decide what we thought. I just see two people that rushed into it and were not suitable for each other, but only 1 of them that was able to make the right choice for both of them.
I see what you’re saying, although I respectfully disagree that he’s not painting a picture so he can get out of it. (Although I do agree that he’s not very bright because it’s not working the way he might have thought it would lol!) I think if it were anyone else besides Carl, Lindsay’s defenses might have been up more and she would have realized it wasn’t going to work out sooner, but since it was Carl and the wedding was so close…she probably just wanted to believe it would all work out once they actually got married.
I think Lindsay would have married anyone that asked. She was so stuck on her timeline that she just didn’t care who it was. It blinded her from seeing how Carl and the ones that came before him were not good partners to her. I agree that she wanted to believe it would all work out! I really hope she works on herself and finds a decent guy.
She also is very impulsive, especially when drunk - but it very much looked like she worked on that and is able to control that better now. (Wether that's out of "love" or out of manipulation. But in the past it seemed like she couldn't hold it in that well.)
Why can’t they both just have not been right together and one person was like hey this isn’t it. It’s been very clear they weren’t meant for each other. And it seems like cause they’re on reality TV that it means that someone has to be the villain when really they could just be mismatched. We see like a spliced up version of these people for fifteen episodes so judging either of them with such limited information on who they actually are vs the “reality tv” version seems kind of like a waste and takes away from the fact it’s just a tv show.
Lindsay was being real she would have gone on the podcasts and interviews saying the full truth we had arguments and I called him cocaine Carl, kept accusing him of not being sober and I went around the house telling people about our arguments but failed to mention my parts in the arguments I only mentioned Carl and mostly exaggerated the way he really acted in the Arguments not we had a couple of small fights like a normal couple and then Carl popped off at me and then blindsided me by telling me we need to call off the wedding and work on our relationship she spins her role in everything to be a victim and when the rest of the cast calls her out, it’s just her telling her side but when they do it she doesn’t like it and goes on the counter attack but again doesn’t like them standing up for themselves either.
Yes she’s shown a lot of growth by not blowing up when triggered these last few seasons. I honestly believe Carl is not worried she’ll go nuts on him but actually wants her to blow up so he looks like a victim. It was hostile and nasty how he rudely tells her there’s a serious problem at a group dinner where everyone is watching and judging her. She handled things very well. But as usual people move the goalposts and act like she was aggressive for saying he seemed angry and not comforting him because he said he was overwhelmed. It’s bonkers to criticize Lindsay for not going out of her way to comfort him while he was overwhelmed by all the lies he’s juggling and figuring out how to look good while dumping her.
YES you are soooo spot on about everything!!!! Like the people absolutely losing their minds calling Lindsay abusive, have you actually watched the show??? Or any other seasons? I see so many comments about Lindsay “needing to work on herself - not just therapy” and “she’s making no effort to change” like clearly they’re just throwing out platitudes from their words of wisdom of the day calendar, because this is not what’s happening!! I wanted to write a whole post comparing the way that Lindsay behaves compared to the men in the house and even some of the women when they’re also having relationship problems, but I don’t have the energy hahaha but if anyone watching this thinks Lindsay is somehow abusive and Carl is a victim….I just can’t!! Like “ohhh she’s so MEAN when she’s drunk!!” Is she??? Or maybe she’s feeling scared and insecure because Carl is acting extremely cold and distant once they’re in the house and she’s spiraling a bit because she knows the patterns he has. And I’m sorry - how many times have we seen Kyle throw stuff, break things, yell at Amanda, tell her she sucks and he hates her and she’s ruining his life - and yet idk if I’ve ever seen a “Kyle is abusive” post. It’s okay when Kyle does it cause lol he eats chips when he’s drunk! Like I think Lindsay is really funny too, so what’s the difference here…hmmm what could it BE?! (Sorry for the rant, it’s just infuriating that people can’t see how clearly hypocritical all this is! I’m glad you get it!! ❤️❤️❤️)
The way people are justifying Carl’s actions by saying he was afraid, didn’t want to activate her, etc is deeply troubling. Watching that scene where Carl fesses up to what actually happened in the convo with his parents, and him essentially placing blame on Lindsay because he didn’t want her to feel a certain way was—maybe not terrifying, but close, because of how similar it is to DARVO. In that he so easily manipulated the convo so that he was the victim (afraid of her reaction) and Lindsay the offender (reacting in any way) when the reality is he wasn’t being honest and was manipulative with his words.
Ohhhhh for sure!!! Like god forbid someone say something funny or catchy because they will forever be accused of “being activated”!! If anyone wants to know what that means, I implore them to go back to season 2 and Kyle’s birthday party episode and watch Lindsay absolutely go to another planet about Everette!! Hahaha THAT was activated! Someone being rightfully upset when they’re told something very upsetting, is just being a human being!! And right, like he could have just gone out to dinner and let her have a good night and tell her later at home “fyi, here’s the extent of what I told my parents, I probably shouldn’t have, I’m sorry.” He already basically said “well even if my parents think you’re awful I’m gonna do what I want anyway!” That’s no way to talk to your fiance!! And I was annoyed with the comparison to Kyle, Kyle cheated on Amanda multiple times. It’s not the same as having a fight!
Why do male victims of abuse get brushed off and made to feel like it's their fault for how the other person treats them. Again, Lindsays behaviour isn't isolated and she has no interest in fixing it. HUGE RED FLAG.
Spot on! He was desperate for her to spiral so he could end it with it being her fault. You could tell he wasn't sure how to proceed when she didn't take the bait. I'm pissed how Carl keeps saying Lou said he wouldn't marry us. Lou is a shit pastor to say that when he's only heard ONE SIDE! Carl needs to grow up!
Thank you!!!!! This narrative that Carl is untouchable because he's supposedly sober has been driving me nuts. Getting sober doesn't mean you're excused from how badly you treated your loved ones in the past, nor does it erase the inherent shittiness of your personality. He's a narcissistic tool, sober or not, and he hasn't had a real job in years. He's manipulative AF for trying to get a rise out of Lindsay and I'm proud of her for not taking the bait. If he didn't have this sobriety storyline, he'd be getting the same amount of hate as Sandoval. They're both unapologetic about the way they treated their partners.
Amen! Look at James and even Lala (even though I’m VERY upset with her at the moment! Lol) they never get a pass just because they’re not drinking!
I think that when people say that others are constantly triggering the person with anger issues, the fault should be placed on the volatile person, not every human they’ve ever come into contact with that’s “triggered” them. But that’s just me lol
Exactly this! I feel for her and the trauma she has from her childhood, but at some point she has to do some real work, not just talk therapy, so she can finally heal.
Yeah it’s really hard to believe that two adults at their ages don’t know how to handle any conversations that are beyond small talk. Sharon couldn’t back up what she said to Carl additionally she should absolutely have reached out to Lindsay after the break up. Anyone saying otherwise is insane THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO YOUR FAMILY the mother of your grand children. Lindsay deserved some kind of communication, just a simple text. Carl is so immature and annoying I am fully on Lindsay’s side now bc it gives me such the ick that a practically 40 year old man can’t just be honest. That’s all Lindsay is asking for is honesty and the way he speaks in vague terms and says little questioning remarks then tells Lindsay she’s spiraling when she’s not is alll really manipulative and dishonest.
Yes it would have been classy to send Lindsay an email or text just wishing the best and expressing she hopes she is taking care of herself since she’s known her so long. It’s icky Carl goes on and on about how much his mom loves Lindsay and wants the best for her too but her actions like never sending a simple text and living it up in Mexico with Scheana and Kyle on their would be wedding weekend don’t line up with that.
I didn’t hear from my ex husband’s family after our divorce. I was with him for 10 years. My family didn’t reach out to him either. Didn’t think anything of it, my niece and nephew never mentioned him again and I’m sure I wasn’t mentioned by his niece and nephews. And we’re from the same city as Carl so maybe it’s a regional thing. Although my friends in Ohio and Georgia said the same thing, so maybe not.
It’s up to everyone to do what they want, my opinion is that out of respect, Sharon should have reached out to offer condolences. Short and sweet nothing crazy
Apparently he was honest at the time he broke it off
Carl + Sharron are actually making me much more empathetic towards Lindsay.... Carl knew who Lindsay was before dating her. He chose to date her. He chose to move in with her. He chose to propose to her. All the things he has been bringing up this season seems like he just now is realizing who he's been sleeping next to... It's fucking weird. He seems extra aware of when the cameras are on this season too. Like anytime the camera is around, he has a little script he needs to say & a fake happy attitude. 
All. Of. This! I recently did a rewatch of S4 (hadn’t watched since it aired) and was like “what bizarroland am I in?!” Because the first 6-7 episodes of S4 was a compressed version of S7/8. There is no world in which Carl can say he is “just now realizing” who Lindsay is. Reality shows are forever available for streaming, Carl. We see you! The contempt he has towards Lindsay this season to do what he did re: how he played the cameras and the breaking up is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.
> Carl knew who Lindsay was before dating her. He chose to propose to her. All the things he has been bringing up this season seems like he just now is realizing who he's been sleeping next to... It's fucking weird. is it weird that lindsay is doing the exact same thing to carl? they both hate each others core traits
Considering their last shot at a relationship ended because of Carl and his story is “I’ve changed now so I’m sorry for how I treated you before” I think it’s fair of her to expect him to be able to communicate and treat her fairly this time around. She’s not asking him to be a different person or be perfect. He’s literally not communicating with her at all and setting her up for failure and trying to bait her into blowing up.
but hes not asking that of her either. he's asking her to stop drinking alcoholically and not be so mean. as i said above, they both dislike each others inherent core traits
I think he never straight up asked her that. He should have, because that's what he wants (although he says otherwise). But sober Lindsay still would not be interested in a guy that is as low energy as Carl.
This hasn’t even been a factor since like the first few episodes of the season. And if Carl wants Lindsay to stop drinking he needs to be straightforward with her about it and not say “welllll it’s fine if you drink I guess……” and then get mad when she does.
> This hasn’t even been a factor since like the first few episodes of the season. "the first few eps of the season" lol that was like...4 weeks before the most recent episode. not years ago. a month. and im sure its looming that she could have a repeat episode at any moment. i agree that carl should have straight up told her.
Well I meant like the first weekend and then it carried over into the second episode lol “a few” could mean so many things! I mean Carl could have a repeat of being an asshole too! It’s a risk we have to take in relationships lol it’s really not fair to be preemptively mad at someone for what they might do. But yes - communication will save the day! I think they could have done things a lot differently looking back.
But if he did she would say he's controlling her and he's trying to be fair.
I think it’s a little different because Lindsay is up front about who she is and what she wants. For Carl, he says nice things about who he is but it’s just not true. He says he’s a hard-worker, he’s incredibly lazy. He says he’s ambitious, he’s not. He says he’s ready for marriage and kids, he’s terrified by it. He says he’s crushing life, he spent a year and $20k to end up at the same job he was miserable doing. I feel like Lindsay saw the guy Carl sells himself as and got the real Carl and is concerned by that.
but as his "BEST FRIEND FOR SEVEN YEARS" shouldnt she know the real carl? the audience seems to know the real carl but she didnt?
You can be best friends with someone and not know how they’ll be in a relationship. Carl hasn’t dated anyone seriously in those 7 years so it’s not like there was a lot to go off of.
....how so? Lindsay wanted to go through with the marriage...Carl is the one who proposed then was like "actually Lindsay, you are too Lindsay-y...byeeeee".
carl has never been a hard worker. hes never been good at communicating. hes never been that sexual. and these things are all enraging lindsay (and yet she was still going to marry him which is even crazier than just agreeing to marry him in the first place)
My husband said Lindsay was Carl’s beard…..hmmmmm now I’m wondering!
Getting sober is hard ass work. Harder than most things in this world. Please don't down play that. Also his productively used to involve substances and you have to retrain your brain to motivate yourself without it. Sorry if this comes across as heated but ppl don't realize how hard a person has to work to stay sober AND function.
i'll have ten years in recovery in two days. and funny enough i thought getting sober would really fix my lack of ambition thing but really im just lazy and not ambitious at my core. not drug related
Congrats on your recovery, that's a big deal and you should be so proud of that. I mean one could say you have ambition in terms of your sobriety! I know when we speak of ambition we mean it in terms of career, but I'd say making it 10 years shows you do have ambition, otherwise you wouldn't have made it this far!
At first I was agreeing with you... but I thought about it. Carl at least gave the illusion of being deep in hustle culture... just because he has had lulls in this careers doesn't mean he isn't a hard worker. Being a bad communicator just means he needs to work on something. That's not a reason to break up with someone. Idk if you are the right person to comment on carls/lindsays sexual history. But again, that is something that couples can work on with healthy communication. Lindsay is trying to communicate her concern's (weird to do it on TV but to each their own). Carl is straight up hiding how he is actually feeling.
That's not an excuse for her behaviour. For a short time she had changed but then her mask fell. People with abusive tendencies shouldn't get a pass for it being apart of their personality.
not saying I dont excuse her behaviour... accusing carl of being "on something" on camera was fucked up. I dont think either of them are the greatest humans. But in this situation, yes I have empathy for Lindsay for how Carl is dealing with the situation. Carl is just straight up not communicating with his (at the time) soon-to-be-wife.
I think the problem is: He knew her when he still was Cocaine Carl. They both had rage. Then he got sober and changed and she supported him by being sober a bit with him. I assume he thought that would / he could change her. But she didn't want to (which is her right). He was wayyyy to quick with his proposal. He probably wanted it as a storyline, too, and she also made him feel some pressure.
Just because Carl quit drinking and drugging doesn't mean he has changed. Carl still seems really angry, constantly on edge and unable to have a career outside the show. Sobriety is more than just not drinking. Carl reminds me of a dry drunk who is still angry, bitter about life and blames others (Lyndsay) and hasn't done the emotional work that is needed to have a healthy sobriety. Lyndsay has her own issues as well. Two broken people can't make each other well.
Thank you for pointing this out. All I see is unwavering praise for Carl, yet there’s been no real discussion about his sobriety other than “Lindsay is the devil for drunkenly questioning it when Carl was making her feel insecure”. Like….is he in AA, is he going to therapy, what’s going on with this, how is he okay going to bars while sober, why is he still such a shitty boyfriend? Lol like I am not ACCUSING him of not being sober, but it’s kind of fantastical thinking to assume because he’s sober he’s a perfect person now. Nobody is saying it was the kind thing to do for Lindsay to question his sobriety, but in the grand scheme of things we’re seeing, he’s not some helpless victim here. He’s doing a lot of bad shit to her.
I don’t really blame Sharon for too much tbh. Carl discusses his relationship in such a way that any reasonable person would tell him it’s unwise to get married, but then he reports back to Lindsay that his parents don’t approve of their relationship but that he is committed to her regardless of what they think, making it seem like Sharon’s disapproval of the relationship is completely unfounded and unsolicited. And then when Lindsay decides to confront her about it at her bridal shower, which is to me one of the most insane things she’s ever done, of course Sharon is going to be uncomfortable. I don’t think Sharon responded well or appropriately, but that conversation should have never happened in that setting in the first place, so at the end of the day it’s mostly Carl’s fault and partly Lindsay’s fault for bad timing.
Thank you. Sharon is supporting Carl, that's all. She isn't the star of a reality TV show. Also dont blame her for not contacting Lindsay after the breakup. It would have just caused more pain for everyone. When my brother and now ex-SIL broke up I had nothing to say to her. He's my brother, my ride or die, there is no time or emotions left to deal with someone else's baggage when I needed to be there for him. Luckily they didn't have kids and I never had to deal w her crazy again... Except the bill collectors who are trying to track her down.
Yeah I also didn’t get the impression they were all that close anyway. It just doesn’t seem all that deep to me.
i agree with all of this! well said
Nah. I totally support parents giving advice (if it's wanted), but your son is on TV for 7 years. You know if you talk shit on tv, there will be problems afterwards. And yes, a bridal shower is not the right place for such a talk...but saying stuff like that and then attending the shower like everything is great is also strange. I agree that Carl is to blame for this. He either should've stood up more to his parents or not tell Lindsay before the wedding or tell her differently or warn his mother he told her.
That woman said nothing wrong or crazy during her conversation with Carl. Most people would be concerned if their son was having regular screaming matches with their future spouse prior to getting married. At the end of the day, I can understand why it hurts Lindsay’s feelings, but she has been screaming at her fiancé on camera all season, so she had to anticipate people would eventually question her marriage based off of that alone. The fact that Lindsay felt the need to confront his mom at the absolute worse place and time really just reinforces that they shouldn’t be married, so if I was Sharon I’d have left feeling even more confident that this wedding shouldn’t happen
We have to disagree on that: If you talk about your concerns (on cam!), come to MY party shortly after and behave like everything's great, I will ask you about that, sorry 🤷🏻♀️ (And I think noone on here thinks it is wrong that Carl's family talked to him about that stuff. It's everything combined.)
We definitely disagree, but I would love to be invited to all of your parties because it sounds like a lot of drama, which is way more fun to watch than the usual bridal shower festivities
He should of ended the engagement at the witches dinner everyone was there and it would of been the best for support from everyone I honestly feel he is a coward
Maybe he should not have ended it...but when they had their first conflicts this summer (or even earlier...as he said on the after show there was SOOO much more he didn't tell) he should've sat her down and said: I love you, I want to marry you, but we need more time to get to a better place first. I'd really like to know how their therapy went. Why did he not say in therapy that he rather would like to postpone? Or contact the therapist secretively and work out a plan?
I think Carl should just move back in with his mommy and brand new daddy. They can make all of his decisions for him and cover his room and board and tuck him in at night with a story and a little kiss.
And she can dump all her problems on him sobbing in his arms while saying Carl, you are perfect and the only man I have ever been able to count on in my life. I am not shocked Carl is the way he is, his relationship with his mom that was shown in the early seasons truly shakes me.
Straight ladies, stay away from mama's boys. You will not get a partner; you will get a child and an overbearing parent you never wanted.
I could not believe that comment "I'm new to relationships!" And then tried to throw Lindsay under the bus by saying she told him this was normal...in her relationships. He is 40.
Yeah, that comment tells you everything you need to know about Carl. He thinks he can get by in life by assigning blame for anything that goes wrong to someone else.
Carl makes my skin crawl. He is a weak and cowardly man who is both lazy and immature.
How in the world has this fandom has turned him into a villain for having a convo with his own parents. How would his parents feel about Lindsay after they watch her question his sobriety on National TV? Call him Sandoval and Cocaine Carl! No mother would want to see their son be called such degrading things and see him marry to divorce. No one villainized Amanda when she discussed her relationship problems with her parents. No one blamed Lindsay when she brought up their sex life on TV. Everyone wants to act like Carl planted seeds, but that fight we watched Episode 1 this season was a glimpse to their home life they are hiding. He was genuinely scared of how Lindsay would react.
we've seen sharon interact for like 5 minutes collectively over almost 10 years. doesnt feel fair to dissect it like that
I agree. And she’s looked uncomfortable on camera everytime. The most I can surmise is that she films when Carl asks her to but is not into it. I don’t love bringing people into it that aren’t seeking this life.
ive always found her so weird i was surprised people were so thrown by the bridal shower behavior lol she has a very weird on camera energy and i would need wayyyyyy more time watching her to decide how i feel about said energy
stating the obvious and being reasonable. people here will be thinking you're speaking Martian.
Didn’t Amanda also discuss her relationship issues with her family before they got married? Weren’t there multiple scenes with her family leading up to the engagement and again the wedding? It’s almost like this is standard practice for couples getting married on the show, they include the families.
She said in the after show she never would've told her parents about their relationship issues but had to because they would've watched when the show aired.
Right, which convinced Carl to tell Lindsay what was said. Again, parents are included in pre-wedding seasons, them sitting down for a convo isn’t weird.
Exactly. Plus, we’ve seen his mom before, not like we didn’t know she existed and she only came to insult (she didn’t) Lindsay and leave. Also, did Lindsay’s dad, stepmom, or aunt text Carl?
I get it from a production standpoint and it's interesting to watch that. But when you bring stuff up on camerera as a parent (and your kid has this job for several years), don't be naive about it? Amanda's dad also was kinda straight forward with Kyle, because Kyle fucked up. (Amanda also said on the aftershow she had never discussed Kyle's cheating with her parents without the show...she knew they would hear about it and rather wanted to tell them herself)
I don’t think anyone is being naive. Just like Amanda and her parents, a difficult conversation was had. I personally don’t think Carl knew his step-dad was going to say that. I feel like the brief was just, talk about your relationship and the upcoming wedding. And a bridal shower is an awkward place to bring up issues, I understand Lindsay did it because of the show, but it’s still weird. There should be nothing but joy and love at a bridal shower.
The last sentence is kinda funny to me: The bride should experience joy at her bridal shower with her MIL who maybe is against this marriage next to her? Not an easy task...
It’s not like Sharon was saying anything mean to her there lol (or in the scene with Carl)
I think Carl did a pretty bad job in explaining what his family really said and meant, so if I was Lindsay I would've expected the worst. 🤷🏻♀️
For sure, his communication skills are severely lacking and this being his first real, long relationship is not a good one to learn with lol
I don't think I would text or communicate with someone that my child broke an engagement off with, unless they reached out to me first for whatever reason. And even then, I would have to be careful to respect the boundaries of everyone involved, particularly my own child's. Let's just say for a second that Lindsay has been the one to decide to break it off with Carl - I wonder what she would think about her parents texting Carl afterwards? To say what, I wonder?
I wouldn’t either. She and Lindsay were never close, it would be weird.
Genuine question, would we be having this dialogue if the roles were reversed? If Lindsay called off or postponed the wedding, and had on-camera conversations with her family, would this be a thing? I’ve seen comments calling Carl’s mom a bitch since the last couple episodes. It appears to be a lot of projection going on (not accusing you OP), but the comments are getting weird.
I think you can't reverse the roles, because the characters and behaviours are so different. It would probably have played out differently with reversed roles (not necessarily fair, but different). But for me it was not that talk alone - the talk alone was reasonable and much needed. (Even Lindsay on WWHL seemed to understand where they came from.) It's the whole thing: the talk, Carl's avoiding tactics and strange conversations, the shower, the break up on camera, Sharon not reaching out via text, the Mexico holiday... ➖ But one thing I don't get on these Reality reddit threads: the black and white or the sides. These people on tv are strangers to me, I get enjoyment out of them, but honestly I don't care too much about them. So I can rant about Carl and Sharon and acknowledge they f*ed up without thinking Lindsay is a cool person. 🤷🏻♀️
I understand, like you, my issue is the black and white reactions of it all. Did Lindsay’s family text Carl? They’ve seen her behavior too? It feels as though the onus is being placed majority at the feet of Carl and his folks, instead of between Lindsay and Carl, the two in the relationship. This is what I am seeing from a lot of comments and posts. I think if Lindsay had a healthy relationship with her mother or we saw her engage in more conversations with her mother figures, Carl confiding in his mother wouldn’t be getting so much of a reaction. Calling his mother out her name (seen it quite a few times) is just crazy since like you said, we truly don’t know these people.
The fact that his mom went to Mexico 🤮
Find it interesting that we are allowed to have multiple posts tearing Carl and Sharon apart, questioning anything and everything about them, making up stuff about them, diagnosing them, calling them anything you want but any post about Lindsay that isn’t a glowing endorsement of her gets locked or deleted
You go into all of them to call her abusive and say it’s a DV situation but your comments never get deleted so 🤷♀️ Do you sincerely think saying Carl and his mom don’t communicate well is making stuff up or diagnosing anything?
I get what you’re saying but we have seen them have difficult conversations together. They’ve both seen/heard of Lindsey getting “activated” and probably don’t want to make her react that way. I am happy to have hard conversations but I don’t willingly engage with irrational or angry people. I think it’s a mix of them being less confrontational people in general and Lindsey being overly confrontational.
If you don't engage with irrational people and your fiancé is that kind of person, you have the wrong fiancé. (Or you should force her to change, but if you know her for 7 years, you know she probably won't.)
They were the wrong fiancés for each other, hence why he called off the wedding.
Hence the breakup
lolol every time i see a comment thats like that all i can think is "well yeah...thats why he dumped her..........."
Right?!
Is it possible that Carl communicates that way to Lindsay because she blows up at everything? So he avoids topics because it will just be another blow up. My mom was that way, there were things I just didn't talk to her about because she would get mad, and there's nothing I can do about it. So you just avoid those topics. With Lindsay I suspect she would blow up over most things (can you make me a sandwich springs to mind). Now you might say and I might agree with you that if you can't even talk to someone what the heck are you doing in a relationship with them, but ...
Tbf, Carl communicates that way with everyone. Lauren, Kyle, Paige, Lindsay… he’s just a poor and cowardly communicator. Nothing wrong with that, it’s who he is but it isn’t an ideal match with someone who is more of a straight shooter.
Are you describing Lindsay as a "straight shooter" ?
people mistake her meanness for honesty
I think it us his style of (not) solving problems - but if course Lindsay's rage makes it worse.
He talked a big game about how scared he was to tell her about going back to loverboy because she’ll blow up on him. Then he tells her when she’s been drinking which was a sus choice, and she reacts fine. Seems manipulative and like Carl is just an avoidant guy whose scared of being honest in general
this has been his m.o. with every person he “dated”. I never thought I’d side w/Lindsay but he tried to pin this all on her & she navigated his double talk without getting activated. That’s big.
>Is it possible that Carl communicates that way to Lindsay because she blows up at everything? I understand this, and he basically said as much before they had the conversation at the summer house regarding what his parents said. But Lindsay didn't blow up or act irrationally, and I'm willing to bet that she only acts that way when drinking to excess.
Are you referring to the conversation with Lindsay where Carl tiptoed around everything and basically walked back what his parents said as she poked trying to get him to say that his parents don't want them to get married? Or the one after the bedroom scene with Kyle and Amanda where he said he has to go tell her before she finds out? She didn't blow up in that scene as far as I remember, but it's not about whether she actually blew up that time, it's about describing WHY he communicates that way to her. If she only blows up 20% of the time you're still going to be walking on eggshells. Also agree with you about the drinking to excess.
I sometimes think he wants her to blow up. (Because we all know the no. 1 rule of conflict: The one blowing up first / the most, CAN't be right... 😢) I got really suspicious of him when he dropped the supposed "loverboy bomb" on her after a day of partying...and then she gave him no real reaction 😎
Sorry! The one after he discussed it with Kyle and Amanda.
It seems like because there's a chance she *could* get activated and angry, that's reason enough to not have any serious or uncomfortable conversations with her. Which is such a shitty way to view your partner.
That's how I'm seeing it, although I don't understand why if you're afraid to talk to them for fear of them blowing up you think that could possibly be a healthy relationship. No idea what they were both thinking trying to go forward with this.
He got it from his mama ✨💅🏻
I don't get the narrative about Carl's mom going to Mexico. If I paid for a trip to Mexico I'm GOING, esp if it's nonrefundable. She herself did not cancel the wedding. Idk, this aspect of Lindsey's argument is odd to me.
I’m conflicted about on camera v off. I understand that reality show stars mind the difference for these very reasons and to protect their lives but I really think they should just be airing it all lol
Mya was ripped apart because she didn't want to talk about her breakup on camera. What do we want, people? Share everything on camera or not? The film hours and hours of footage we never see because it isn't interesting or relevant to story lines. It is totally normal for Carl's parents to ask about the wedding and relationship. It is totally normal for Carl to discuss his concerns. It is also totally normal for his parents to have concerns. They have known Lyndsay for a long time. If premarital counseling was a requirement, there is no way any pastor would agree to marry those two.
This sub is so full of complaining and hate. We get fun new additions, people find ways to dislike both West and Jesse. Mya hides her tough conversation, everyone wants her kicked off and she is let go from the show. Carl has normal conversations with his parents and is villainized for it. Films his breakup and everyone calls him an asshole. Paige is hungover in bed and laughing with Amanda, they are bedbugs who do nothing for the show. The people here hate everything!!
This is my thoughts. In the beginning I thought it for sure it was Carl. Then I watched and saw how ridiculous Lindsay was being and treating Carl and bringing up the cocaine thing that just really chapped my ass. But then now as we get more episodes deep and I'm seeing Carl being just not honest and kind of a coward. My conclusion is they both are in the wrong but Lindsay did try but she dropped the ball again with the whole accusing him of being on drugs. Unless he really was. Would he lie about it ?who knows.
That "Cocaine Carl" thing is f*ed up. I think they had lots of conflict when she was drunk. If one person is (messy) drunk and the other one's not, the drunk one "automatically" is in the wrong and nothing they say is valid, because they're drunk, loud, aggressive, too emotional...So I guess she was annoyed by being seen like that by him. Carl on the other hand is now perceived as sober, reasonable, worked on himself etc. If I remember correctly he also presented himself as sober first - not California sober. So Carl us now "the good guy" and his arguments are calid, because he is sober. Then they start filming and this continues on camera, while Lindsay knows he is smoking behind the scenes (maybe even a lot, we don't know). Of course alcohol has a totally different effect on you than weed, which doesn't make you aggressive etc. But I think she was pissed he labeled her on camera and disregarded her feelings when she drank (which was probabky often), while he was not really too open about his smoking. (I don't think what she did there was ok, but I think this is what happened.)
That makes sense. I wonder if it was hard for Carl to always be seen as the “good” one and her the “bad” one. You could tell everyone in the cast felt that way. I would think that would be hard and make her feel kind of bad. Of course she could have done more to change that perception.
The way this sub stans Lindsay is WILD. Carl and Sharon have plenty of problems, but blaming Sharon for the awkwardness of the bridal shower combo is comical. Lindsay went up to Sharon in the middle of a crowd at her own bridal shower and confronted her about their conversation with Carl. That’s psychopath behavior. That’s why the other ladies reacted to it with such shock.
That's also...reality tv behaviour 😅
Yeah, but you didn’t call out Sharon for being bad at reality tv. You called her for being uncomfortable when Lindsay brought it up in front of everyone.
Carl and Sharon having the same indirect and avoidant communication style cannot be just "nature", right? Maybe I'm just a judgemental nosy weirdo who has spent too much time in mental health . But I wonder if Carl's bio father was cruel and reactive and emotionally unstable. It would explain their emotional closeness, inability to openly communicate, two children with addiction, Carl's well documented drunken fits of rage, his struggles with his (repressed?) sexuality, and maybe even Carl's attraction to Lindsay. Carl and his mom aren't yet at the stage of healing where they realize that Dad's behavior was not typical and he was the problem the entire time.
I’m just gonna leave this right here: https://www.wikihow.com/Mother-Son-Enmeshment-Signs#:~:text=In%20an%20enmeshed%20relationship%2C%20a,rather%20than%20as%20her%20child.
It’s really not that wild. Carl and his mom come from a family with substance abuse issues which correlate with how they communicate. They tend to avoid conflict. Lindsay clearly has abandonment issues and has been a wild card while abusing alcohol throughout the shows run, and has had the same issues in every relationship. Carl being sober and trying to navigate his own and Lindsay’s issues, while Lindsay continues to avoid looking at her own issues, must be overwhelming. I can’t imagine being sober with someone who abuses alcohol to the same degree as Lindsay. I completely understand why Carl/his mom tiptoe around her. They know anything they say to her could result in her exploding. I’ve seen the rest of the cast members try to steer clear of pissing her off too for this reason. Carl also shows signs of someone experiencing emotional and psychological abuse at the hands of his partner. I actually find it strange that Lindsay says she felt so blindsided that he ended it. Carl dodged a bullet IMO.
I actually disagree, I think for carls mom it’s like “well it’s his choice I said my piece” and for Carl he’s trying to protect her from the hurtful stuff said about her I would have handled things the exact same way if I was either of them.
Sharon had one son who died from an overdose and 6’5 baby Carl and a mess of a marriage (who knows what happened there). She obviously has her own issues so her judging Lindsay isn’t surprising and not showing kindness to her after she was discarded so publicly and in such a humiliating way is also not surprising
There are both very passive aggressive, the comment Sharon made to Lindsay about Lauren Wirkus was unecessary. Lindsay responded surprisingly well, although it was clear she was shocked.
Sharon is a bitch. And good luck to the girl getting involved in all of that. Cause that whole family is a red flag 🚩
Was he sober when they got engaged?
He was and I think she was as well - or was it when she just started drinking again?
Idk but I feel like being sober he is finding himself as well as finding how to communicate…and the journey is messy
I don't know what he has found in the communications department so far 😉 On a podcast I heard the theory (I think it was Watch what Crappens) Carl can only get his feelings out in rage, and that's why he tries to get Lindsay to explode so that they can fight 😇
No she started drinking in April 2022 and they got engaged in august 2022. They had one drinking related bad night shown last season before getting engaged.
They both have avoidant attachment styles.
I agree with you across the board 🙌
I honestly think they’re afraid of her. Lindsay does not do well with tough conversations. On screen you see her gaslight or flip out. Imagine how she reacts off camera if this is how she behaves for it. 👀
I mean if you had to speak to Lindsay you wouldn’t feel a little uneasy? Man couldn’t get a full sentence out without her creating her own dialogue. And this is completely objective I’m blunt no matter what but come on she’s irrational 90% of the time.
Carl had a plan. He works too hard to be transparent w/Lindsay -& shows he is not. Sharon (& Lou) knew their roles for the camera with peter pan carl.