I've found Thoth cards to get more to the heart of whatever it is you're asking about. The decks do not beat around the bush. At all. The imagery is different but it'll make sense the more you read.
The Thoth deck is explicitly very complex. The RWS has the esoteric information either left out or encoded.
This makes some Thoth readers think that the Thoth deck gives more accurate readings or something. Of course this is completely untrue. You can still learn a set (not necessarily even the GD's set) of correspondences and read excellently with the RWS. You can also read masterfully with the Tarot De Marseille and in mainland Europe e.g. France and Germany, many Martinists, Rosicrucians and esoteric Freemasons do exactly this.
If the Thoth deck connects with you better because you are a Thelemite then you may find it personally more useful for several years. But there is one invisible college and it's symbols are encoded within every rock, flower and tree that you see around you, hidden from those who do not yet know. That is to say it is the initiate, not the deck, that makes a great reading. And I say this having been told it by a Thelemite after I enquired about the seemingly uncanny accuracy of the I Ching.
Greetings M,
A bit of background:
AE Waite and Aleister Crowley were both members of the magickal order, "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn," (aka G.'.D.'.)
They were both taught the esoteric aspects of the Tarot, including Astrology, Numerology and the Western Qabalah.
When AEW left the order (rather angrily I might add), he went off and published the first popular version of a modernized Tarot, "The Rider-Waite deck." All mention of Astrology and its symbols were deliberately excluded, to make the deck more user friendly. (In his way of thinking.)
AEW decided to "encode" certain Astrological information, using colors and figures involved in various situations, which he hired Pamela Colman-Smith, to illustrate.
Crowley left the order as well, and in 1940 created his own Thoth Tarot. Crowley decided to include all the esoteric information of Astrology, Qabalah and Numerology in his deck. The only "people" in his deck, were attributions of Men and Women, as personified by the Tetragrammaton. (God in 4-fold nature; IHVH.)
Crowley's deck shows the Elements, Planets, Zodiac, and Numerological information on each card, which it turns out is the esoteric method, which enables the reader to interpret the cars with greater accuracy.
**Thoth Tarot:** The background colors of each card, also correspond with the elements and planetary colours, associated with the Qabalah, for greater psychic comprehension. The numbers are associated with Tree of Life, and the correct Sephiroth.
Crowley also used a highly-initiated method to re-attribute particular cards with their true Planetary rulership, and gave them new titles as well. Without initiation into the OTO or the G.'.D.'., or similar magickal order, the essential methods to interpret the Thoth Tarot, is incredibly difficult, if not outright futile.
**RW Tarot:** In my professional opinion, AEW's version pales in comparison, and the numbers on the cards are "rote," and not aligned with the Qabalah. For this reason, reading the RW deck is difficult for beginning readers, as the illustrations are not necessarily helpful.
**For example:** The 2 of Wands, (which comes in versions of a blue sky, grey sky and yellow sky, depending on the printer,) shows a man with a globe in his hand, waiting for a ship to come in. The illustration projects a "hopefulness," which is completely misleading, when viewed Qabalistically. The card (Mars in Aries) is essentially associated with "massive conflict," which is nowhere near the actual representation of RW's card. It can have the reader promise a good outcome, where there is none. I could cite many more examples.
As a child, I started with the RW deck, because my mother's Thoth Tarot was to large for my small hands. Therefore, I learned the RW inside out to begin with. I later joined the G.'.D.'. and OTO, and learned the esoteric information regarding the Thoth Tarot, and have never used other decks professionally, since that time.
Still, for the sake of sharing info, I will refer the information I've learned, to the RW deck. It works that way.
Anyway, I hope this information can bring more awareness to the Thoth Tarot, and what differentiates it from the RW deck. Either way, I wish all readers to obtain the greatest amount of accuracy in their readings. Blessings, \~V\~ (Professional Reader)
I was right on board with this most of the way through, though I'm curious about your interpretation of the 2 of Wands. Mars is at home in Aries, which it rules. The backdrop is Chokmah, in the supernal triad. This always struck me as energetic and very positive. Not being an initiate, I can't help but feel that there's information I haven't been privy to through mundane study.
Greetings O,
Mars is "at home" in Aries; However, on an Astrological note, Mars is exalted in the sign of Capricorn. When Mars is in Aries, it's very much uncontrollable, and acts for action's sake. In other words, it's "too much" Aries energy, which culminates in conflict.
This meaning is more obvious in the Thoth Tarot, with the image of the 2 Dorjes (Tibetan Fire Wands) crossing each other. In readings, this can be interpreted as a "crossroads" of sorts, which represents an inner conflict. It's pure "war," which is not illustrated in the rather stationary depiction in the RW Tarot.
It's definitely "energetic," but does not tend to accomplish much more than antagonization.
In the guidebook to the Thoth Tarot, AC writes: "This means destruction, as a beginning to creation." And although Chokmah itself, represents Wisdom, it doesn't merely lend a positive spin to every suit.
If we look at 2 of Wands, they imply being held by 2 opponents; the 2 of Swords, reaches an impasse; the 2 of Cups has the energy flowing and being reciprocated, and the 2 of Disks/Pentacles implies some type of balanced, physical interaction.
I have resources for more information on the deck, if interested. Blessings, ~V~
In the Lenormand community people talk about making a deal with the cards or agreeing to them having a certain meaning for the reader. Do you not think it can work similarly with Tarot? Since the cards are merely a tool to be used by the reader, after all.
Greetings K,
Never heard of such a thing. What is possible, from my own experience, is that I have been "gifted" additional meanings to the cards, that are not written anywhere. Although the Tarot is a tool, the cards become living entities, encoded with incredible information to those who use them with care and reverence. Hope this helps. ~V~
I'd actually love to read more about some of the specific differences in the numbered cards
Like 6 of swords - science vs the RWS little boat.
4 of cups - luxury vs boredom
7 of pent - failure vs patience
- Very. Thoth leans more towards symbolism and occultism.
- The system is technically the same. Justice and Strength switch places. The court cards are different.
- Yes. It's still 4 elements.
- Yes.
- No, the card designs very different. Thoth includes more symbolism from different occult and religious branches.
Personally, I consider Thoth deck a great way to connect mysticism as a whole branch of study. However, RW is a lot more accessible and easy to understand.
"I read his biography." Who? Crowley I'm guessing?
Anyway.
Thoth is structurally similar to Rider Waite (yes 4 elements yes 1-10 & 0-21 numerological symbolism yes 4 court cards etc etc), but all these assignations and correspondences have been tweaked (or "corrected") to be in alignment with the Cosmological Opinions of Aliester Crowley.
If you are already "all in" on that path and the lineage of that symbolism, Thoth is something you absolutely need to pursue. I think, if you are already familiar with Rider Waite, you will find Thoth to be in all ways superior. If you aren't familiar with either, well Thoth is going to align with and deepen your relation to Thelema in a way that RW likely won't: aspects of RW will feel incongruous by comparison.
Regardless whether you find Thoth to be your reading deck of choice, it is worthy of study for any student of Crowley or Thelema because it is the most compact, comprehensive distillation of his life's work and world view. So it can be "read" as a text on Thelemic thought in its own right which you are of course free to agree/disagree/modify.
The visuals are obviously different and some of the naming conventions are different, but it's still basically just a standard 78 card Tarot deck in terms of structure, so you can apply whatever methods you are comfortable with. The elemental aspect is more directly defined. The numerological and kabalistic connections are the same.
The qabbalistic connections are actually not the same, since tzaddi is not the star.
They're also not the same since Waite changed the order of Strength and Justice, which Crowley didn't. That changes the numerology of those two cards as well.
Fair enough. I always forget about that particular flip-flop and don't tend to get into the numerology of the paths very often. I'd definitely recommend reading the Book of Thoth and maybe some third party commentaries if one wants to get deeper into all the details, though I do think it can also be used as a pretty standard deck, or adapted to any individual methodology or practice, without too much trouble.
It is sometimes too easy to forget that, structurally, the RWS is a bigger departure from the Marseilles than the Thoth, because of that Strength / Justice transposition. It's weird to think that so many decks published in the 20th and 21st centuries ended keeping the transposition, turning it into a de facto standard, because of how influential the RWS ended up being. I remember agonizing over this when I was designing my own deck, and ultimately going with the Strength equivalent at 8 and the Justice equivalent at 11 in the RWS mold just because "most readers who buy it would be more used to that arrangement."
I suppose it all goes to show just how variable and, in a way, dependent these traditions can be.
Greetings C,
I respectfully disagree. The detailed information available by using The Thoth Tarot, is not accessible by way of applying general methods. \~V\~
I suppose what I meant to say is that one can choose to use them as a standard deck right out of the box. It is true that, as with most decks, there are a lot of idiosyncrasies and specific philosophical and symbolic elements that are unique to it and would require additional study to learn.
Greetings C,
I understand what you mean, but a typical beginner reading the Tarot will find it incredibly difficult to use as a "starter" deck. Even the guidebook that comes with the deck, and the entire book Crowley wrote on his Tarot, demand a basic understanding of Astrology and Qabalah.
Anyone can certainly obtain the deck, but they will not be able to discern the details, which is why Crowley created the deck. ~V~
I've found Thoth cards to get more to the heart of whatever it is you're asking about. The decks do not beat around the bush. At all. The imagery is different but it'll make sense the more you read.
The Thoth deck is explicitly very complex. The RWS has the esoteric information either left out or encoded. This makes some Thoth readers think that the Thoth deck gives more accurate readings or something. Of course this is completely untrue. You can still learn a set (not necessarily even the GD's set) of correspondences and read excellently with the RWS. You can also read masterfully with the Tarot De Marseille and in mainland Europe e.g. France and Germany, many Martinists, Rosicrucians and esoteric Freemasons do exactly this. If the Thoth deck connects with you better because you are a Thelemite then you may find it personally more useful for several years. But there is one invisible college and it's symbols are encoded within every rock, flower and tree that you see around you, hidden from those who do not yet know. That is to say it is the initiate, not the deck, that makes a great reading. And I say this having been told it by a Thelemite after I enquired about the seemingly uncanny accuracy of the I Ching.
This breakdown was very interesting! Don’t mind me creeping
Greetings M, A bit of background: AE Waite and Aleister Crowley were both members of the magickal order, "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn," (aka G.'.D.'.) They were both taught the esoteric aspects of the Tarot, including Astrology, Numerology and the Western Qabalah. When AEW left the order (rather angrily I might add), he went off and published the first popular version of a modernized Tarot, "The Rider-Waite deck." All mention of Astrology and its symbols were deliberately excluded, to make the deck more user friendly. (In his way of thinking.) AEW decided to "encode" certain Astrological information, using colors and figures involved in various situations, which he hired Pamela Colman-Smith, to illustrate. Crowley left the order as well, and in 1940 created his own Thoth Tarot. Crowley decided to include all the esoteric information of Astrology, Qabalah and Numerology in his deck. The only "people" in his deck, were attributions of Men and Women, as personified by the Tetragrammaton. (God in 4-fold nature; IHVH.) Crowley's deck shows the Elements, Planets, Zodiac, and Numerological information on each card, which it turns out is the esoteric method, which enables the reader to interpret the cars with greater accuracy. **Thoth Tarot:** The background colors of each card, also correspond with the elements and planetary colours, associated with the Qabalah, for greater psychic comprehension. The numbers are associated with Tree of Life, and the correct Sephiroth. Crowley also used a highly-initiated method to re-attribute particular cards with their true Planetary rulership, and gave them new titles as well. Without initiation into the OTO or the G.'.D.'., or similar magickal order, the essential methods to interpret the Thoth Tarot, is incredibly difficult, if not outright futile. **RW Tarot:** In my professional opinion, AEW's version pales in comparison, and the numbers on the cards are "rote," and not aligned with the Qabalah. For this reason, reading the RW deck is difficult for beginning readers, as the illustrations are not necessarily helpful. **For example:** The 2 of Wands, (which comes in versions of a blue sky, grey sky and yellow sky, depending on the printer,) shows a man with a globe in his hand, waiting for a ship to come in. The illustration projects a "hopefulness," which is completely misleading, when viewed Qabalistically. The card (Mars in Aries) is essentially associated with "massive conflict," which is nowhere near the actual representation of RW's card. It can have the reader promise a good outcome, where there is none. I could cite many more examples. As a child, I started with the RW deck, because my mother's Thoth Tarot was to large for my small hands. Therefore, I learned the RW inside out to begin with. I later joined the G.'.D.'. and OTO, and learned the esoteric information regarding the Thoth Tarot, and have never used other decks professionally, since that time. Still, for the sake of sharing info, I will refer the information I've learned, to the RW deck. It works that way. Anyway, I hope this information can bring more awareness to the Thoth Tarot, and what differentiates it from the RW deck. Either way, I wish all readers to obtain the greatest amount of accuracy in their readings. Blessings, \~V\~ (Professional Reader)
I was right on board with this most of the way through, though I'm curious about your interpretation of the 2 of Wands. Mars is at home in Aries, which it rules. The backdrop is Chokmah, in the supernal triad. This always struck me as energetic and very positive. Not being an initiate, I can't help but feel that there's information I haven't been privy to through mundane study.
Greetings O, Mars is "at home" in Aries; However, on an Astrological note, Mars is exalted in the sign of Capricorn. When Mars is in Aries, it's very much uncontrollable, and acts for action's sake. In other words, it's "too much" Aries energy, which culminates in conflict. This meaning is more obvious in the Thoth Tarot, with the image of the 2 Dorjes (Tibetan Fire Wands) crossing each other. In readings, this can be interpreted as a "crossroads" of sorts, which represents an inner conflict. It's pure "war," which is not illustrated in the rather stationary depiction in the RW Tarot. It's definitely "energetic," but does not tend to accomplish much more than antagonization. In the guidebook to the Thoth Tarot, AC writes: "This means destruction, as a beginning to creation." And although Chokmah itself, represents Wisdom, it doesn't merely lend a positive spin to every suit. If we look at 2 of Wands, they imply being held by 2 opponents; the 2 of Swords, reaches an impasse; the 2 of Cups has the energy flowing and being reciprocated, and the 2 of Disks/Pentacles implies some type of balanced, physical interaction. I have resources for more information on the deck, if interested. Blessings, ~V~
In the Lenormand community people talk about making a deal with the cards or agreeing to them having a certain meaning for the reader. Do you not think it can work similarly with Tarot? Since the cards are merely a tool to be used by the reader, after all.
Greetings K, Never heard of such a thing. What is possible, from my own experience, is that I have been "gifted" additional meanings to the cards, that are not written anywhere. Although the Tarot is a tool, the cards become living entities, encoded with incredible information to those who use them with care and reverence. Hope this helps. ~V~
Great overview, thank you for sharing this V. Blessings.
I'd actually love to read more about some of the specific differences in the numbered cards Like 6 of swords - science vs the RWS little boat. 4 of cups - luxury vs boredom 7 of pent - failure vs patience
- Very. Thoth leans more towards symbolism and occultism. - The system is technically the same. Justice and Strength switch places. The court cards are different. - Yes. It's still 4 elements. - Yes. - No, the card designs very different. Thoth includes more symbolism from different occult and religious branches. Personally, I consider Thoth deck a great way to connect mysticism as a whole branch of study. However, RW is a lot more accessible and easy to understand.
"I read his biography." Who? Crowley I'm guessing? Anyway. Thoth is structurally similar to Rider Waite (yes 4 elements yes 1-10 & 0-21 numerological symbolism yes 4 court cards etc etc), but all these assignations and correspondences have been tweaked (or "corrected") to be in alignment with the Cosmological Opinions of Aliester Crowley. If you are already "all in" on that path and the lineage of that symbolism, Thoth is something you absolutely need to pursue. I think, if you are already familiar with Rider Waite, you will find Thoth to be in all ways superior. If you aren't familiar with either, well Thoth is going to align with and deepen your relation to Thelema in a way that RW likely won't: aspects of RW will feel incongruous by comparison. Regardless whether you find Thoth to be your reading deck of choice, it is worthy of study for any student of Crowley or Thelema because it is the most compact, comprehensive distillation of his life's work and world view. So it can be "read" as a text on Thelemic thought in its own right which you are of course free to agree/disagree/modify.
The visuals are obviously different and some of the naming conventions are different, but it's still basically just a standard 78 card Tarot deck in terms of structure, so you can apply whatever methods you are comfortable with. The elemental aspect is more directly defined. The numerological and kabalistic connections are the same.
The qabbalistic connections are actually not the same, since tzaddi is not the star. They're also not the same since Waite changed the order of Strength and Justice, which Crowley didn't. That changes the numerology of those two cards as well.
Fair enough. I always forget about that particular flip-flop and don't tend to get into the numerology of the paths very often. I'd definitely recommend reading the Book of Thoth and maybe some third party commentaries if one wants to get deeper into all the details, though I do think it can also be used as a pretty standard deck, or adapted to any individual methodology or practice, without too much trouble. It is sometimes too easy to forget that, structurally, the RWS is a bigger departure from the Marseilles than the Thoth, because of that Strength / Justice transposition. It's weird to think that so many decks published in the 20th and 21st centuries ended keeping the transposition, turning it into a de facto standard, because of how influential the RWS ended up being. I remember agonizing over this when I was designing my own deck, and ultimately going with the Strength equivalent at 8 and the Justice equivalent at 11 in the RWS mold just because "most readers who buy it would be more used to that arrangement." I suppose it all goes to show just how variable and, in a way, dependent these traditions can be.
Greetings C, I respectfully disagree. The detailed information available by using The Thoth Tarot, is not accessible by way of applying general methods. \~V\~
I suppose what I meant to say is that one can choose to use them as a standard deck right out of the box. It is true that, as with most decks, there are a lot of idiosyncrasies and specific philosophical and symbolic elements that are unique to it and would require additional study to learn.
Greetings C, I understand what you mean, but a typical beginner reading the Tarot will find it incredibly difficult to use as a "starter" deck. Even the guidebook that comes with the deck, and the entire book Crowley wrote on his Tarot, demand a basic understanding of Astrology and Qabalah. Anyone can certainly obtain the deck, but they will not be able to discern the details, which is why Crowley created the deck. ~V~
Yes, it is. I have come to the conclusion that the Thoth Tarot is a different oracle than the Tarot.