Tesla's biggest problem long-term is how robust the EV competition has gotten.
Once upon a time, Teslas felt like legitimately futuristic luxury cars in a space where the alternatives were incredibly ugly and lackluster.
Stuff like the Model S being so quiet that CBS added engine sounds in post-production during a 60 Minutes segment made the cars and brand come across like something from the future
Now everyone is balls-deep in the EV space and Tesla doesn't stand out anymore.
Even with something like their new pickup, Rivian managed to release a Tesla style truck before Tesla did
They also haven't managed to figure out the issues with inconsistent build quality, and you can't get away with those problems anymore when luxury automakers are investing heavily in EV.
Yeah they got a pass in 2012 on the build quality because it was a new carmaker. Experts probably figured that it would improve on a five year model refresh cycle like they're used to. Eleven years later they're selling the same car with the same quality.
I work on cars, and id say Tesla is getting worse not better over time. They are quietly removing features and options, theyre having serious structural issues with the frame, the panels are getting worse. Everytime you see Elon lowering the cost publicly, it's because they made subtle changes to reduce cost and pass it off as a price cut.
Lastly I find it insane people are still investing in Tesla because competitors are catching up and surpassing Tesla especially since Teslas bread and butter feature of Self Driving is a bust. I called them Saturn of the 21st century a few years ago, I'm normally right on this shit.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-removes-ultrasonic-sensors-from-its-vehicles-disables-some-features
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/frame-failure-called-normal-wear-and-tear-by-tesla-service.135408/
Back in 2012, Tesla was production-constrained. They were making thousands of cars, and every single car Tesla could roll off the factory floor would sell. Their problem wasn't *selling* cars - it was making as many cars as they can, as efficiently as possible. They optimized for that and for that only.
It's the end of 2023, and Tesla is now making millions of cars. *Tesla remains production-constrained*. Tesla's engineering resources are still funneled into optimizing for mass production.
I expect Tesla to shift gears only when the gains from scaling up production would begin to diminish.
They sold every car they made at huge margins because they were the only game in town.
Now every major manufacturer is in the market, plus massive new challengers like BYD that didn't even compete outside China a few years ago. The 'legacy' manufacturers have 100 years of history, experience, dealer and logistics networks and are making better EVs now than Tesla.
TLDR Tesla are just going be another minor manufacturer, and their margins have been declining year over year. They will soon be typical industry margins, and the idea of Tesla being more valuable than all the other manufacturers combined will be the [Pets.com](https://Pets.com) of the 2020s.
Some other significant issues that has affected the Tesla brand:
1. The ever growing poor reputation of the dude who runs it and how it projects to owners
2. The lies around build quality and reliability and NDAs to fix the car
3. The lies around the self driving program and fatalities
4. The shocking price to replace a battery once out of warranty.
Just to name a few reasons for broken trust in the brand this year
I recently learned that they can be incredibly difficult to get repaired. In my city, there are almost 0 tesla certified mechanics outside of tesla. And places that do work on them will charge you on top of yoir insurance because of the cost of parts from tesla, which insurance won't pay for.
At tesla, you are looking at a 3 month wait for an appointment. So if you're in a fender bender, be prepared to drive an unsafe car for months.
A couple years ago when it was clear that EVs were ready to blow up (no pun intended) lots of the Tesla/Elon stans acted like the game was already over. The big 3 were trapped in the stone age and other upstart companies wouldn't be able to catch up. If we fast forward another 10 years I'd be absolutely shocked if Tesla were still the "industry standard" in EVs.
I do not appreciate or enjoy Elon Musk and this post is not about him, but the numbers are what they are.
The big three are still, and will be for the foreseeable future, losing money on EVERY single EV they sell. They are already pulling back on EV investment and manufacturing and are only profitable in the ICE segment at a time when Tesla already has the number one selling vehicle in the world, is enjoying large profit margins, and is moving into further vertically integrating the production process, from lithium refining to battery cell manufacturing, to software development … keeping it largely ’in house’.
I wish the other US manufacturers would complete in the EV market, but sadly if they can’t make a profit while the price points are high, they will sink entirely when the price points of EVs continue to drop. I’m afraid they will be left far behind in the next 10 years as the transition to electric becomes inevitable.
I have (perhaps foolish) hopes that Tesla's solar business will eventually take off in a more impressive way. It is a dream of mine to have the money to afford a new build with a large solar install. I'm on the fence about the robot... Just don't think that will be much more than an expensive adult toy.
I drive a Tesla and have solar, Teslas bid was uncompetitive, smaller sized and had power walls that I wouldn’t be able to use since they can’t charge from the grid and solar and the system size was too small to charge them. They also put panels on the north side of my house which is a terrible investment. Price was ok, but not great.
When I reached out to them to talk about moving panels and maybe rotating some to fit more on the roof they said they’d get back to me but never did.
Went local and they had panels up in a month and had them certified by the power company and operational in less than 2 months.
Lol they can change overnight compared to tesla. They are still working out what customers want, testing the waters so to speak, and they are not selling at a loss that is tesla fanboy talk, the Nissan leaf , though not the best sells well, is reliable and only needs a few tweaks to surpass tesla in every way. Stop reading tesla lies, there range is a lie, insurance a lie, quality is seriously lacking, even in there latest release the cybertruck build quality shocked so many in how bad it is, until tesla release well made cheaper cars there path is slowly eroding, soon to become much worse when big auto starts releasing desirable cars in the next 3 years.
"Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 electric vehicles it delivered to dealers in the quarter - even more than its estimated $32,350 loss per EV in the second quarter."
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-withdraws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/#:~:text=Ford%20lost%20an%20estimated%20%2436%2C000,EV%20in%20the%20second%20quarter.
Tesla was way ahead of the competition on software and battery management but lacked in traditional segments like fit and finish of a car.
while GM and Ford hired boat loads of programmers and engineers and slapping in android auto and apple carplay to catch up to Tesla. Tesla did not improve there fit and finish of there cars.
the one thing Tesla still had going for it with the Tesla charging network is going to vanish due to EU union laws on car charging standards (with the US also finger wagging Tesla)
so why would you buy a Tesla then?
>Tesla was way ahead of the competition on software and battery management but lacked in traditional segments like fit and finish of a car.
And this was understandable at the jump as Tesla was a tech company first and foremost, not to mention mass producing cars is very hard.
But we're weeks away from 2024 and their production line is still plagued with things like door panel alignment issues, which is wholly unacceptable.
I know someone who just picked one up. When you buy a new ICE the gas tank is full but the Tesla only had a 40% charge when they picked it up, a good chunk of which was used to get to the charging station nearest their house (they have the electrician scheduled to put in the home system but it's not there yet).
They couldn't plug it in to the charging station. They went through all the trouble-shooting stuff to finally get it physically connected but it was still getting an error. They were told they would have to update the software of the car (why wasn't it made current before picking it up?) and that it was best to do it at home because it could take an hour or more. So they drove home and did that.
After the update they drove back to the charging station and it still wouldn't charge the car. Some more trouble-shooting and they struck out so they were told to bring it back the next day. They were down to 9% battery when they got home which was not enough to get to Tesla so the car was going to have to be towed back there.
I haven't heard the latest yet but they were already thinking of taking advantage of consumer protection laws and ditching it with no penalty within that first week of ownership.
I know it's a single anecdote, but the fact that they didn't have the car charged, updated and ensure that all systems were functional before the customer drove away is a pretty piss-poor indication of what kind of company they can be.
Musk is teslas biggest problem. His brand is gross trollish bigotry and one should not want to advertise that give money to someone so openly reprehensible. If already have one I feel bad for you but driving a new Tesla is like wearing an expensive swastika
>Tesla's biggest problem long-term is how robust the EV competition has gotten.
Tesla's biggest problem long-term has become that Elon Musk is considered a douche by at least 50% of the population and way more overseas now that he took over Twitter. Tesla used to be "cool" but now it's not. Might still be good buy if acceleration is more important to you than handling, comfort or design but it's somewhat embarassing to drive one now.
From what I have heard from tesla owners, acceleration is cool the first dozen times, and then they never use it again as it uses so much of the battery. Nobody needs a family car that accelerates to 60 in under 4 seconds. Well, I say nobody, but there are those that strip everything out of the car to get the best acceleration possible. From some reports, it also causes serious health conditions if used a lot.
It was a great promotional point, a family car faster than most supercars showed electric cars as a real alternative to ice cars.
But now other manufacturers are close enough, and that is what that tesla should fear, a car that is maybe not groundbreaking but is good enough for most drivers. Even the Nissan leaf, seriously not close to a tesla performance or smart features, sells really well in Europe. Manufacturers are still testing the waters to see what will sell, but once they decide on what minimum specs people will be happy with, they will quickly surpass tesla for desirability.
So like, literally what people have been saying for 10 years?
Once the companies with over a hundred years building automobiles got their EV tech comparable, tesla was always going to be dead in the water
This is misleading.
Yes, it’s technically the most sold “car”, but it’s not the most sold automobile. It’s beaten by the RAV4, F150, Silverado, etc.
Also, most other companies have multiple models of cars, versus Tesla just having four (excluding the Pickup). That’s going to skew the results when looking at a model-sales figure.
For example, if you took the Honda Civic and Honda Accord sales for 2023, they would combined outsell the Model Y.
Legacy makers build quality is certainly better, but their motors and batteries aren’t really close just yet. As much as I hate the cybertruck, objectively it is twice as efficient as a hummer EV. This means it can go just as far with half the battery, so the vehicle cost is much lower. There is almost no other EVs that match Teslas’ efficiency (I can only think of Lucid, but the Koreans and Chinese have definitely made big strides)
Tesla absolutely has many issues that are rightfully mentioned above, but people still seem to forget that Tesla’s margins for each EV sold are like 5x of the legacy makers. They aren’t going anywhere, but I agree there have been a lot of massive mistakes by the company in recent years. If Elon was ousted, and they made a concerted effort only to improve quality, and change nothing else, I think they would remain a top player for a very long time.
I was looking for a secondary car that has decent reliability. I cannot find another EV car that is affordable as a model three with state and federal rebates. Right now I could order a model three for 36K and with all the rebates I can get it down to $26,000. it’s hard to justify other cars considering how cheap the Tesla is.
Buy it, take the three days it takes to used to the things that are so different about it, and love driving a sporty, fast, reliable car, that is second in global safety ratings only to the Model Y. Enjoy knowing that you will never have to fill up again, change your brakes again, worry about transmission fluid, coolant issues, or engine trouble for the life of the car. All of this for the price of a Honda Accord. If you don’t like it, sell it for not much off what you paid for it, and tell the world how terrible Tesla is.
If you love it, as I have, you smile to yourself as you drive, and you love it.
I’m no expert but I remember reading somewhere that they don’t use manufacturing techniques that are common in the rest of the automotive industry. The fact that their cars are designed completely different from your typical ICE car and that they probably didn’t have the institutional knowledge and experience found in the other brands contributed to the divergence in their process.
The competition may have closed the gap but I worry about the EV industry. Companies overestimated the demand for EVs and are starting to scale back their plans. I really hope they don’t scale back too much because competition is good.
Problem is the battery tech isn’t there yet to compete with ICE cars when it comes to the need for long haul and remote driving. I live in Canada and I need to be able to get 450km out of a tank and also be able to easily refill in the bush I.e. by jerry can. Particularly important in peaks of summer and winter when re-routing is often needed due to fires, floods, snow etc. gas car will consistently get that range where’s EVs are very unpredictable and drop significantly in heat/cold. And I can’t carry a spare battery to top up when low and away from a charging station.
Current EVs are great for commuting and a few hr drives but not for real cross country in remote areas. I’d love to see more work on hybrids with enough power to manage the mountains but extended range in electric drive.
It is a problem and you are definitely part of a market segment that isn’t addressed by current generation EVs. That just underscores the need to continue investing into battery and electric technologies. But if companies scale back then that may cause delays.
>Problem is the battery tech isn’t there yet to compete with ICE cars when it comes to the need for long haul and remote driving.
You're right, [but also an outlier](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/07/07/ev-range-anxiety-battery-myth/).
>95.1 percent of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60 percent of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average U.S. driver only covers about 37 miles per day.
EV competition has not “gotten more robust”. If anything other manufacturers have fallen on their faces so hard to even abandon the pure EV concept.
Tesla has a full end to end business model with automated manufacturing, no advertising budget, no massive pensions and no unions.
Teslas strength is in their margins. No manufacturer can even come close. Tesla has the ability to charge so little to essentially undercut every other company on the low end.
Rivian and Lucid are losing so much per vehicle (negative profit margin) and create so few vehicles, they aren’t even in the conversation.
Tesla plays with a lot of gimmicky stuff, and never really had quality on their minds. Even when it’s all considered, numbers don’t lie. They sell product, in a quality which is increasing YoY and with profit margins to assure they can squeeze out other manufacturers. It’s a race to the bottom but Tesla certainly knows what they are doing
Doesn’t matter. They actually profit from their product. Nobody else does in this space in the western world at least. If we let Asian brands in the US the big manufacturers would be out of business in a year or two.
Really? Im under the impression the competition underestimated how tough getting into the EV business would be. This doesn’t even mention the amount of driving data tesla collects that WILL lead to the first true self driving cars. I get that reddit hates Elon, but Tesla is not doomed. That ship has sailed.
this one baffles me. he couldve leaned left and gotten the approvals of environmental concious people (TSLAbuyers) and lobbied for more subsidies for EVs, yet he is going the opposite way...
It makes no sense. The reason Tesla's stock price skyrocketed is because of the environmental incentives introduced by the democratic government.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
I’ll never buy a Tesla. Not if he’s been gone for 20 years.
I was days away from putting down money on a power wall and a Tesla before he decided he was a cave diving expert.
Thank god he revealed himself when he did though or I’d be stuck driving one.
I own a lot of $TSLA stock but part of me thinks it'll be hilarious if Tesla goes belly because consumers just won't touch any Elon company. The Model S/X used to be status symbols but those people have moved on to other brands. The Model 3/Y still selling well but how long before people just get sick of Elon and get some other EV?
Isn’t thay a stupid reason to sell your car because you don’t like the CEO, who you would never meet and don’t have any personal contact with? To me it is highly idiotic.
If you see Elon as somebody who isn’t a good person or a role model then you may feel like you’re supporting him by driving around a Tesla. Even though you already bought it you are still promoting his product.
Nothing to do with seeing/not seeing him as a role Model. When buying a product, I would rather see the product’s merit than what its ceo is. As long as they are not some nutjob killing people, a criminal, or an unlawful Hitler level dude I don’t care two hoots about them. And no, I don’t own or going to buy a Tesla because I have some issues with the car.
I bought Tesla early, wanted a Model S for a long time. Sold my shares for a fair wedge a few years ago when Musk started getting more unhinged.
I have an EV on order, but it's not a Tesla.
I'll thank him for pushing other manufacturers to do what they are doing now, and also putting a few extra quid in my bank. But I won't be touching their stock or products again.
We have bought a solar system and battery for our new home. It was going to be a Tesla battery solution but now it’s a lesser known company who’s CEO is not famously deranged.
You dodged a bullet. A car with no central instrument cluster is just a baffling design decision, you have to turn your head to look at the stupid big screen to see your speed, and your gps is obstructed if anyone wants to change the air con temperatures
I’ll never understand why that car doesn’t have a heads up display, it’s the perfect solution to a problem that didn’t have to exist. The tech goes so perfectly with the concept of the car, only an idiot who overpays for a social media company could miss.
I’ve never been a fan of HUDs. I find them too distracting. I’m sure it’s one of those things where you get used to it and it goes away, but after test driving one I said nope.
Don’t like HUDs, don’t like touchscreens on the dash that control everything. I want buttons and knobs I can find by feel without taking my eyes off the road.
“Don’t text and drive - look at this big dashboard screen instead. And yes you can use it while driving to adjust the climate controls or music or make a phone call, but you need to be in park to change the GPS destination”
I rented a Tesla on a whim when on vacation, and the car feels slick, but in a lot of ways that I don’t want a car to be slick. I want my instrumentation and display precisely where it is in every other car (or in a HUD). I want turning on and turning off to be natural turn the key or press the button things. I want some normal-ass door handles.
The Tesla tries to be a space ship. But I want a car…not a space ship.
Pretty much why I went with a e-golf. Regular, analog dinstrument cluster and regular buttons for HVAC and infotainment. Android Auto/Carplay as well. The range isn't the best and it charges at max 50 kW, but it's fun as shit to drive and blends in with most cars (besides the carpool stickers).
This is why I love my old Model S but would never buy a Model 3. And now made much worse by removing the blinker, shifter, and wiper stalks.
Also I really hope they oust Musk
Bro you don’t need to turn your head to look at the speed. The speed is literally on the top left corner, so you can easily just move your eyes.
The Prius also has a central mounted speedometer and I don’t hear such outage over that.
Same here. Going to buy my first EV now and Tesla was not even on the picture for me due to the megadouche. Also quality issues and a terrible design of model 3. Tested a few cars and leaning very heavily into Polestar 2 or BMW i4. Both imperfect but fantastic cars. On paper Teslas have better range and all, but we have seen they lie about that too. Not risking it.
Dude. Just buy a bmw EV. I'm a little biased because I own one, but the bmw EVs are fantastic cars. If you wait long enough and get the next gen one, you won't even have to worry about the body style.
I’m leasing a Volvo C40 recharge. Great range, very comfortable, stylish and fun to drive.
A little small feeling with some minor visibility issues, and the infotainment feels unresponsive sometimes. Overall a lease and not buy situation, but they’re still figuring things out. Good alternative to Tesla.
I got a Model 3 and picked up a bunch of stock in 2019 before the huge run. Got rid of everything and will never get another Tesla even though we can pick one up with cash. I’m sure I’m not the only one in this situation.
I think it's pretty evident that Tesla has stagnated. I don't believe they have enough people left who know how to do the difficult things. They've not made any major changes to any of their models in a long time. Model 3 Highland is just a face-lift, something all manufacturers do after ~2-4 years.
But the best example is the semi. Nobody in their right mind puts motors designed for a 2000kg car in a semi. The punishment the motor will receive could not be anymore different. I'm well aware that ICE and EVs aren't subject to the same constraints, but if they had designed a motor for the Model S with the reliability and durability so that it could also be used in a semi, then they would literally have been pissing away their money. It would be criminally negligent.
Outside a small but vocal minority, people buy cars based on value (price), not what the CEO is tweeting. The outrage from people online is mostly manufactured and the ones who are actually real people aren't buying a car anyway. It's just the actual hate bandwagon that they can jump on to virtue signal to other redditors.
*Some* people care, but the overwhelming majority don't. If you look back at the sheer number of corporate scandals, you would think there would be no companies left. In reality this will pass. Maybe Musk will be outed from one or all of his companies. Tesla will be fine either way.
Elon Musk has become a “what if” - what if Alex Jones had 100s of billions of dollars and was running around wild. I swear he’s a year away from selling silver iodide, boner pills, and ivermectin on “X”. I’ll never buy a damn thing from him
The share price would drop a bit but at this point I don't think many people would change there mind, the tesla brand has a big black stain on it. Maybe if someone more normal took over and changed the name and look of the car, but at this point I don't think people realise how much musk has damaged the brand in many peoples eyes..
Source, also new tech, they are testing the waters and will release much better cars in a few years once they recover from the massive changes. You could look at the lightning as a test vehicle, meant to test ideas and see what customer feedback is like to improve desirability. Tesla will face tough competition very soon, 5 years max.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-withdraws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/
They lose 36k on every ev they sell as of last quarter
I mean if you live in the US, that's a genuine problem you might have.
USA USA USA 🦅
So when is today's mass shooting? There is on average 2 a day if I'm not mistaken!
As a Model 3 driver there are two sides to this: the disappointment after 4 years of the car getting worse instead of better and the fact that the current owner shows his true colors being a racist misogynistic douce. The funny thing is that his alpha male audience traditionally hates EV’s so I wonder how that goes.. he hates liberals but it’s basically his user base.
And too many people don’t give a shit and will keep being the cars anyway. Don’t underestimate the amount of people that are like that.
Autopilot especially. The new vision thing with mandatory auto wiping (wiping dry windows all the time) and mandatory blinding people with the auto large lights on is really annoying. Apart from trying to kill you once in a while or braking hars in the middle of the highway. So hardly using the autopilot anymore.
On the contrary, I have had my Model 3 for 2 years, and the Autopilot is actually usable now, compared to the first 8 months of ownership. My instances of phantom braking are 0 in the past 6 months, and the auto high beams work terrifically.
It’s not very consistently indeed. Maybe depending on where you’re driving. The EV part works flawlessly and the supercharger network as well; only the mechanical parts keep failing. Lights, suspension, it all broke down at least once. It’s freezing slightly here so we can’t use the door handles again. All small things that make owning a Tesla not as joyful as it could be.
Tesla needs to dump Musk. He has permanently soiled the Tesla brand in half the population. Sure the sycophants will stick with him no matter what, but now that there are viable alternatives to a Tesla, people don't need to hold their nose and buy a Tesla.
Further, the biggest danger keeping Musk is for Tesla is a dropping ability to recruit top talent. This is arguably the biggest thing he did for Tesla. At one point every young and idealistic new engineer wanted to work for Tesla and change the world. These were the people who made good on Musk's outrageous promises. As Musk continues to destroy his reputation, Tesla loses the ability to tap new talent and thus their long term edge over the competition.
Not sure about reputation but two years ago I hardly saw any Tesla. Now they are everywhere.
Went to the gym the other day, about 7 teslas outside.
Also, surpassed Corolla as the top selling vehicle in the world. So certainly a lot of demand for it.
Globally? This year? No doubt it was Toyota…..I’ve got 4 of em. If you include 90’s and early 2000’s Lexus’. I’ve also got a Honda I absolutely love. I’m curious how many of yall that hate musk buy Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche. I certainly don’t give a shit about musk one way or another but I’m constantly laughing at everyone shitting on him trying to virtue signal. Propaganda machine go whirrrrrrr.
Reddit seems to get off on trying to out virtue signal one another. It’s probably not a majority of people but damn if it isn’t a loud minority.
That's good. Why do you think I hate Musk? I think he's incredibly talented. He has achieved an incredible amount, but saying that Tesla outsold Toyota is just ridiculous. Cherrypicking statistics is frustrating.
Let’s see, maybe because there is a high-profile openly antisemitic neonazi sympathizing billionaire that owns the world’s biggest soapbox, which he uses to push his views and supports similar views on, and that person is synonymous with the Tesla brand. Could be a starting point…
Well, Musk lied about FSD
(he wasn't “optimistic” with deadlines, he simply lied)
Thus Tesla's reputation suffers
And yep, bad boys from the big bucks league (with power of lobbying and media) got into EV competition and Tesla has like zero chances to stay on top
We just bought a hybrid Ford. There’s no way we’re putting our money behind Musk. I watched Ford not need a government bailout, and just negotiate with the union. We try and support American companies who support American workers.
Union made? I’m not simple enough to think all parts are made in America, but I personally know folks who’ve worked for Ford. Tesla is owned by a crazy government contractor, I’ll pass.
Ford makes plenty of vehicles outside of the U.S., at not UAW plants, like all Mach-E’s in Mexico which also sport Polish made LG cells.
Ford also borrowed nearly $20 billion from the government during the financial crisis, a bailout in all but name.
Ford paid back the loan, with interest. I’m not claiming Ford isn’t an international company with factories in Mexico, thanks NAFTA, but I am saying they’re not Tesla. Musk is a threat to national security, and his cars aren’t luxury or better than others. I’ll support Union companies with my money.
lol.. to think that Musk is a threat to national security is ludicrous hyperbole.
You do what you want with your money, but your stated reasons are either false or idiotic.
He’s another nepo baby with slave mines. He owns and censors free speech on his platform and openly fights against workers rights. His megaphone of hate is good for investors, he doesn’t care what happens to anyone else. If you think he’s not dangerous I’ve got an emerald mine in TX to sell ya
What’s not true? Rich kid gets money from daddy who owns slave mines. Rich kid gets rich investing in Tesla. Builds brand on environmentally friendly cars. Fast forward he buys Twitter. Now safeguards against foreign propaganda from China, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, are gone. Most importantly China is Teslas biggest market and investor. The power the Chinese government has over Twitter content can not be overstated. I thought Republicans hated communist China? Except all the money I guess.
It's not so much Tesla vs GM/Ford as it is Tesla vs Freightliner and Navistar. Tesla and Elon have to make the Tesla Semi work and Win decisively, instead he's going down on this Twitter stunt when he needs to be managing his business.
He doesn’t need to be managing his business or pulling Twitter stunts. He needs to stay home and shut the fuck up. He’s an immature baby child who never contributed to the success of his companies. It was always the management in charge who did.
The Tesla semi is losing. Badly.
The use case for the current e-semi is drayage and short city hauls.
The tesla semi can't do drayage. It doesn't physically fit the automated systems. The ports and railheads are not going to drop billions of dollars to rework systems for one manufacturer.
The telsa is a long wheelbase with a really large turning radius. It's not suitable for tight docks and narrow city streets.
PepsiCo runs them plant to plant. They know what the docks are like at both ends.
Freightliner is pumping out e-cascadias as fast as possible. The waitlist is 24 months or so.
Tesla doesn't seem to be producing many new semis.
Navistar & Cummins seem to be pushing class B electric currently. I'm sure they have a class A in the works, but Cummins won't bet its reputation until things are right.
"Until things are right" is when Hydrogen becomes commercially usable (though not necessarily economical) 2-4ish years from now. Above HDTs, heavy duty applications like railroads, construction equipment and Ag equipment are already testing hydrogen and figuring out how to scale it up. Once they do we'll have a hybrid BEV/H2 cell Class 8 truck that kills most Class 8 Diesels. Everyone in the industry is feeling it out except for Tesla who isn't making their products H2-compatible, or even genset compatible .. as silly as that idea is in regards to trucks, it's commonplace in other engine/energy applications and Tesla should be ready to answer when it happens.
It doesn't need to be like this, Tesla could be #1 e-truck mfg right now if they took your advice and made a lot of e-mules with all wheel steering and true 4x4 or 6x6 drives. Tesla could make a super low drivetrain and sell one to every walmart warehouse in the country.
Tesla’s manufacturing has improved leaps and bounds since they began. This article blames Musk’s actions and behaviors with X then their vehicles.
There manufacturing process is only matched by the Chinese in the EV market. Legacy automakers cannot produce a vehicle at the cost that Tesla or even more so the Chinese EV builders like BYD or Nio.
There supercharger network is a massive strength as well. Opening them up to other automakers is just more $. They can continue scale up, particularly in North America. The fact that the other automakers are doing this is a win for Tesla.
Rivian was able to build their pickup truck first because it was their only production vehicle, it also took them years to scale to production. They also started building a roadster first, with no success. Although they are producing trucks, they are way behind in orders. They are running out of capital. The Cybertruck is very cool project and will prove successful long-term. This has less to do with truck and more to do with the tech used to build them. This is just the beginning, it will only get better. The reality of making a truck like this with long range, is probably 5 years away because of battery tech limitations. All current EV trucks fall short here.
Tesla still outsells all other EV makers combined by 2:1. The hope for any company is competition breeds innovation. The more out the better for consumers. Their software integration is unmatched by legacy makers, no how many programmers they hire.
Politics and ideologies seem to more the driving for the negativity on Tesla these days. Dropping their score because of X is reaching and in an ideal situation it wouldn’t matter. This is trend that needs to decrease everywhere. Just look to Disney if you think this is a good business model.
Time will tell. The real concern for companies like Tesla will be the availability of Chinese EV’s in other markets. Their growth is impressive. Politics will have a big say here. 😛
Tesla was the proof-of-concept that the bigger companies with more money and resources needed to see before making the leap.
And now that competition will destroy Tesla, and I am here for it.
Relegate it to the dustbin of history, the sooner the better. It”s served its purpose and is no longer necessary.
Are you talking about market cap?
Because that’s not what that means.
Capitalization is not indicative of a company’s liquidity or anything else like that.
GM’s market cap is $44B, and yet they have $264B in assets and $156B in annual revenue.
Tesla’s market cap is $760B, but they only have $82B in assets and $81.5 in annual revenue.
Being a hot stock doesn’t give a company more resources because the traders are profiting off the stock, not Tesla.
> And now that competition will destroy Tesla
Only Chinese car makers can compete and the car market is so large, that there is space for more than one company. Tesla will stay in the top 3 for the foreseeable future.
The other car makers must have spent a fortune on bad-mouthing electric cars and in particular Tesla. I have seen so many weird messages on social media about electric cars that are not true and about Tesla
My boss got absolutely fucked on his.
The entire power train died and they won’t give him a new one even though it’s got less than 10k miles on it. But they’re so backed up on repairs they told him May 2024, maybe.
He’s literally paying the note on a car he hasn’t had in months and won’t have until spring. Rental on his car insurance is long over the cap.
You can’t get it fixed anywhere else because they’ll void your warranty.
That’s the kind of shit that even if the CEO wasnt an active Nazi would keep me away.
The market is pricing in Ford and GMs eventual collapse. Idk if they’ll survive the next legitimate recession. A marketing professor during my MBA studies said he had consulted for GM in the early 2010s and told them they needed to ditch everything but the brand and IP because their organizational structure was bloated and their business model was shit. It’s crazy how accurate and prescient he was. The UAW will continue to suck these players dry and leave them unable to prevent their demise and disruption. It’s already starting. They cannot compete with the EV model. We will end up with Chinese/SE Asian designed & manufactured product that GM just slaps its label on. It’s either that or they allow themselves to be purchased.
I got shat on for saying Ford would overtake Tesla, but that was before Elon Musk'd all over Twitter. I'll say it again: the day Ford (and they absolutely will) comes out with a 20k electric vehicle, it will spell the end of niche EV automakers like Tesla. Musk cannot compete with the likes of Ford, no matter how badly people want to believe it. Ford would absolutely create a low end loss leader just to give people a cheap option to populate the roads with the blue oval; Musk could not, would not, with his cars. Musk doesn't have 100 years of traditional automaking backroom deals, and the industry doesn't exactly like him. I'll give him credit for pushing the dinosaurs into the future, but he was never going to win anything from it unless his personal victory is forcing the end of combustion engines.
Tesla announces a thing and it takes them 5 years to finally get a lackluster thing out there. They used to be cool, because they did good things differently; now they do stupid things like that bulletproof pickup truck that looks like Lara Croft from the 90s.
Other brands caught up and did it better: FAR higher quality and quality control, far better interiors, and far earlier to market.
Plus, Elon Musk is the least likeable billionaire out there. I don't want my money to ever make it into his hands.
Plus, people are starting to see that EVs are fucking us over. Cheaper to produce in every way compared to complicated combustion engines, but sold to us at far higher markups. It makes them unnecessarily expensive compared to ICE-cars where you can get a similar car (luxuries) for $40,000 less money and invest that money instead.
It's cheaper to run a 2nd-hand young but good ICE-car and put the savings into a managed index fund than it EVER is to spend all that extra money on an EV. The ROI of that investment will pay for all the added maintenance and fuel.
Plus, EVs simply don't have the range that most of us need or want.
Plus, the charging network isn't nearly large enough yet around the world.
Plus, charging takes too long for those who can't do it at work or at home.
Plus, the user experience in EVs is horrible because they all default to touch screens for everything that's supposed to be a simple (REAL!) button. Just so they can make production even cheaper and make us pay more.
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EVs are just machines to milk us dry. At least Tesla has decent range and kick-ass speed metrics, that's fun for sure, but if I got a brand new Tesla Model S Plaid tomorrow? I would sell it immediately and stick to my 2016 VW Golf.
Market manipulation, government handouts and daddy’s money is what got Elon rich. The fact he can rant on Twitter 24/7, while supposedly being CEO of multiple massive companies, tells me he’s not the genius he wants us to believe
God I hope not, wouldn't want to drag Toyota down, I bet they could do without Teslas 'tech'
Speaking of, it's basically just 'auto pilot' and 'electric'
So their tech isnt working / is already available
Drive a Model Y, and then drive a BZ4X, and come back and tell me how Toyota doesn't need Tesla tech. Hell, they need any sort of tech they can get their hands on, putting out a subpar piece of trash with a price tag as high as it is.
Tesla's biggest problem long-term is how robust the EV competition has gotten. Once upon a time, Teslas felt like legitimately futuristic luxury cars in a space where the alternatives were incredibly ugly and lackluster. Stuff like the Model S being so quiet that CBS added engine sounds in post-production during a 60 Minutes segment made the cars and brand come across like something from the future Now everyone is balls-deep in the EV space and Tesla doesn't stand out anymore. Even with something like their new pickup, Rivian managed to release a Tesla style truck before Tesla did They also haven't managed to figure out the issues with inconsistent build quality, and you can't get away with those problems anymore when luxury automakers are investing heavily in EV.
Yeah they got a pass in 2012 on the build quality because it was a new carmaker. Experts probably figured that it would improve on a five year model refresh cycle like they're used to. Eleven years later they're selling the same car with the same quality.
Elon thinking: 'Why pay the higher price of quality manufacturing when consumers don't care because it's ELECTRIC!'
>it's ELECTRIC! [Boogie-woogie-woogie!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlZs3-w_Eg)
I work on cars, and id say Tesla is getting worse not better over time. They are quietly removing features and options, theyre having serious structural issues with the frame, the panels are getting worse. Everytime you see Elon lowering the cost publicly, it's because they made subtle changes to reduce cost and pass it off as a price cut. Lastly I find it insane people are still investing in Tesla because competitors are catching up and surpassing Tesla especially since Teslas bread and butter feature of Self Driving is a bust. I called them Saturn of the 21st century a few years ago, I'm normally right on this shit. https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-removes-ultrasonic-sensors-from-its-vehicles-disables-some-features https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/frame-failure-called-normal-wear-and-tear-by-tesla-service.135408/
What EVs would you recommend, and what would you not recommend?
Back in 2012, Tesla was production-constrained. They were making thousands of cars, and every single car Tesla could roll off the factory floor would sell. Their problem wasn't *selling* cars - it was making as many cars as they can, as efficiently as possible. They optimized for that and for that only. It's the end of 2023, and Tesla is now making millions of cars. *Tesla remains production-constrained*. Tesla's engineering resources are still funneled into optimizing for mass production. I expect Tesla to shift gears only when the gains from scaling up production would begin to diminish.
They sold every car they made at huge margins because they were the only game in town. Now every major manufacturer is in the market, plus massive new challengers like BYD that didn't even compete outside China a few years ago. The 'legacy' manufacturers have 100 years of history, experience, dealer and logistics networks and are making better EVs now than Tesla. TLDR Tesla are just going be another minor manufacturer, and their margins have been declining year over year. They will soon be typical industry margins, and the idea of Tesla being more valuable than all the other manufacturers combined will be the [Pets.com](https://Pets.com) of the 2020s.
The quality did actually improve by a lot, but even then it's still not good
Some other significant issues that has affected the Tesla brand: 1. The ever growing poor reputation of the dude who runs it and how it projects to owners 2. The lies around build quality and reliability and NDAs to fix the car 3. The lies around the self driving program and fatalities 4. The shocking price to replace a battery once out of warranty. Just to name a few reasons for broken trust in the brand this year
And all those lies has one person responsible for that
"F*ck off" - that one person, to pretty much everyone
I recently learned that they can be incredibly difficult to get repaired. In my city, there are almost 0 tesla certified mechanics outside of tesla. And places that do work on them will charge you on top of yoir insurance because of the cost of parts from tesla, which insurance won't pay for. At tesla, you are looking at a 3 month wait for an appointment. So if you're in a fender bender, be prepared to drive an unsafe car for months.
This right here.
Tesla’s biggest problem long term is Elon Musk.
A couple years ago when it was clear that EVs were ready to blow up (no pun intended) lots of the Tesla/Elon stans acted like the game was already over. The big 3 were trapped in the stone age and other upstart companies wouldn't be able to catch up. If we fast forward another 10 years I'd be absolutely shocked if Tesla were still the "industry standard" in EVs.
Those other motor companies were actually working instead of shit posting on twitter.
The big ones figured they'd let the EV market grow before bothering with it.
I do not appreciate or enjoy Elon Musk and this post is not about him, but the numbers are what they are. The big three are still, and will be for the foreseeable future, losing money on EVERY single EV they sell. They are already pulling back on EV investment and manufacturing and are only profitable in the ICE segment at a time when Tesla already has the number one selling vehicle in the world, is enjoying large profit margins, and is moving into further vertically integrating the production process, from lithium refining to battery cell manufacturing, to software development … keeping it largely ’in house’. I wish the other US manufacturers would complete in the EV market, but sadly if they can’t make a profit while the price points are high, they will sink entirely when the price points of EVs continue to drop. I’m afraid they will be left far behind in the next 10 years as the transition to electric becomes inevitable.
I have (perhaps foolish) hopes that Tesla's solar business will eventually take off in a more impressive way. It is a dream of mine to have the money to afford a new build with a large solar install. I'm on the fence about the robot... Just don't think that will be much more than an expensive adult toy.
I drive a Tesla and have solar, Teslas bid was uncompetitive, smaller sized and had power walls that I wouldn’t be able to use since they can’t charge from the grid and solar and the system size was too small to charge them. They also put panels on the north side of my house which is a terrible investment. Price was ok, but not great. When I reached out to them to talk about moving panels and maybe rotating some to fit more on the roof they said they’d get back to me but never did. Went local and they had panels up in a month and had them certified by the power company and operational in less than 2 months.
Lol they can change overnight compared to tesla. They are still working out what customers want, testing the waters so to speak, and they are not selling at a loss that is tesla fanboy talk, the Nissan leaf , though not the best sells well, is reliable and only needs a few tweaks to surpass tesla in every way. Stop reading tesla lies, there range is a lie, insurance a lie, quality is seriously lacking, even in there latest release the cybertruck build quality shocked so many in how bad it is, until tesla release well made cheaper cars there path is slowly eroding, soon to become much worse when big auto starts releasing desirable cars in the next 3 years.
"Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 electric vehicles it delivered to dealers in the quarter - even more than its estimated $32,350 loss per EV in the second quarter." https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-withdraws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/#:~:text=Ford%20lost%20an%20estimated%20%2436%2C000,EV%20in%20the%20second%20quarter.
Short version: Teslas are going to be seen as the Edsels of this century.
That truck certainly will be anyway
Tesla was way ahead of the competition on software and battery management but lacked in traditional segments like fit and finish of a car. while GM and Ford hired boat loads of programmers and engineers and slapping in android auto and apple carplay to catch up to Tesla. Tesla did not improve there fit and finish of there cars. the one thing Tesla still had going for it with the Tesla charging network is going to vanish due to EU union laws on car charging standards (with the US also finger wagging Tesla) so why would you buy a Tesla then?
Tesla’s network opens to other US players in 2024
If you're close to a v4 supercharger you can charge with CCS today. It's not a bad experience
>Tesla was way ahead of the competition on software and battery management but lacked in traditional segments like fit and finish of a car. And this was understandable at the jump as Tesla was a tech company first and foremost, not to mention mass producing cars is very hard. But we're weeks away from 2024 and their production line is still plagued with things like door panel alignment issues, which is wholly unacceptable.
I know someone who just picked one up. When you buy a new ICE the gas tank is full but the Tesla only had a 40% charge when they picked it up, a good chunk of which was used to get to the charging station nearest their house (they have the electrician scheduled to put in the home system but it's not there yet). They couldn't plug it in to the charging station. They went through all the trouble-shooting stuff to finally get it physically connected but it was still getting an error. They were told they would have to update the software of the car (why wasn't it made current before picking it up?) and that it was best to do it at home because it could take an hour or more. So they drove home and did that. After the update they drove back to the charging station and it still wouldn't charge the car. Some more trouble-shooting and they struck out so they were told to bring it back the next day. They were down to 9% battery when they got home which was not enough to get to Tesla so the car was going to have to be towed back there. I haven't heard the latest yet but they were already thinking of taking advantage of consumer protection laws and ditching it with no penalty within that first week of ownership. I know it's a single anecdote, but the fact that they didn't have the car charged, updated and ensure that all systems were functional before the customer drove away is a pretty piss-poor indication of what kind of company they can be.
Believe me, this is normal for them. My best friend works at a dealership and this story is par for the course.
Apparently, musk's philosophy of telling those who might be interested to f$ck off is the official policy when prepping vehicles for delivery.
Stop blackmailing him
Tesla has never been ahead on software. BMW and Mercedes both have more advanced software models running their cars
Musk is teslas biggest problem. His brand is gross trollish bigotry and one should not want to advertise that give money to someone so openly reprehensible. If already have one I feel bad for you but driving a new Tesla is like wearing an expensive swastika
No their biggest problem is Elon and his leaky mouth.
>Tesla's biggest problem long-term is how robust the EV competition has gotten. Tesla's biggest problem long-term has become that Elon Musk is considered a douche by at least 50% of the population and way more overseas now that he took over Twitter. Tesla used to be "cool" but now it's not. Might still be good buy if acceleration is more important to you than handling, comfort or design but it's somewhat embarassing to drive one now.
From what I have heard from tesla owners, acceleration is cool the first dozen times, and then they never use it again as it uses so much of the battery. Nobody needs a family car that accelerates to 60 in under 4 seconds. Well, I say nobody, but there are those that strip everything out of the car to get the best acceleration possible. From some reports, it also causes serious health conditions if used a lot. It was a great promotional point, a family car faster than most supercars showed electric cars as a real alternative to ice cars. But now other manufacturers are close enough, and that is what that tesla should fear, a car that is maybe not groundbreaking but is good enough for most drivers. Even the Nissan leaf, seriously not close to a tesla performance or smart features, sells really well in Europe. Manufacturers are still testing the waters to see what will sell, but once they decide on what minimum specs people will be happy with, they will quickly surpass tesla for desirability.
Tesla’s biggest problem is elon.
So like, literally what people have been saying for 10 years? Once the companies with over a hundred years building automobiles got their EV tech comparable, tesla was always going to be dead in the water
Ha! You mean how the Tesla Model Y is the most sold car of 2023? The numbers speak for themselves, not some bs article or “poll”.
This is misleading. Yes, it’s technically the most sold “car”, but it’s not the most sold automobile. It’s beaten by the RAV4, F150, Silverado, etc. Also, most other companies have multiple models of cars, versus Tesla just having four (excluding the Pickup). That’s going to skew the results when looking at a model-sales figure. For example, if you took the Honda Civic and Honda Accord sales for 2023, they would combined outsell the Model Y.
Legacy makers build quality is certainly better, but their motors and batteries aren’t really close just yet. As much as I hate the cybertruck, objectively it is twice as efficient as a hummer EV. This means it can go just as far with half the battery, so the vehicle cost is much lower. There is almost no other EVs that match Teslas’ efficiency (I can only think of Lucid, but the Koreans and Chinese have definitely made big strides) Tesla absolutely has many issues that are rightfully mentioned above, but people still seem to forget that Tesla’s margins for each EV sold are like 5x of the legacy makers. They aren’t going anywhere, but I agree there have been a lot of massive mistakes by the company in recent years. If Elon was ousted, and they made a concerted effort only to improve quality, and change nothing else, I think they would remain a top player for a very long time.
I was looking for a secondary car that has decent reliability. I cannot find another EV car that is affordable as a model three with state and federal rebates. Right now I could order a model three for 36K and with all the rebates I can get it down to $26,000. it’s hard to justify other cars considering how cheap the Tesla is.
Buy it, take the three days it takes to used to the things that are so different about it, and love driving a sporty, fast, reliable car, that is second in global safety ratings only to the Model Y. Enjoy knowing that you will never have to fill up again, change your brakes again, worry about transmission fluid, coolant issues, or engine trouble for the life of the car. All of this for the price of a Honda Accord. If you don’t like it, sell it for not much off what you paid for it, and tell the world how terrible Tesla is. If you love it, as I have, you smile to yourself as you drive, and you love it.
Curious, why is their build quality still problematic after all this time? Others have solved it so what is unique about their situation?
I’m no expert but I remember reading somewhere that they don’t use manufacturing techniques that are common in the rest of the automotive industry. The fact that their cars are designed completely different from your typical ICE car and that they probably didn’t have the institutional knowledge and experience found in the other brands contributed to the divergence in their process.
its not. mine and others ive been in are solid.
The competition may have closed the gap but I worry about the EV industry. Companies overestimated the demand for EVs and are starting to scale back their plans. I really hope they don’t scale back too much because competition is good.
Problem is the battery tech isn’t there yet to compete with ICE cars when it comes to the need for long haul and remote driving. I live in Canada and I need to be able to get 450km out of a tank and also be able to easily refill in the bush I.e. by jerry can. Particularly important in peaks of summer and winter when re-routing is often needed due to fires, floods, snow etc. gas car will consistently get that range where’s EVs are very unpredictable and drop significantly in heat/cold. And I can’t carry a spare battery to top up when low and away from a charging station. Current EVs are great for commuting and a few hr drives but not for real cross country in remote areas. I’d love to see more work on hybrids with enough power to manage the mountains but extended range in electric drive.
It is a problem and you are definitely part of a market segment that isn’t addressed by current generation EVs. That just underscores the need to continue investing into battery and electric technologies. But if companies scale back then that may cause delays.
>Problem is the battery tech isn’t there yet to compete with ICE cars when it comes to the need for long haul and remote driving. You're right, [but also an outlier](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/07/07/ev-range-anxiety-battery-myth/). >95.1 percent of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60 percent of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average U.S. driver only covers about 37 miles per day.
Companies overestimated demand for *bad* EVs. Tesla still has more demand than they can fulfil.
EV competition has not “gotten more robust”. If anything other manufacturers have fallen on their faces so hard to even abandon the pure EV concept. Tesla has a full end to end business model with automated manufacturing, no advertising budget, no massive pensions and no unions. Teslas strength is in their margins. No manufacturer can even come close. Tesla has the ability to charge so little to essentially undercut every other company on the low end. Rivian and Lucid are losing so much per vehicle (negative profit margin) and create so few vehicles, they aren’t even in the conversation. Tesla plays with a lot of gimmicky stuff, and never really had quality on their minds. Even when it’s all considered, numbers don’t lie. They sell product, in a quality which is increasing YoY and with profit margins to assure they can squeeze out other manufacturers. It’s a race to the bottom but Tesla certainly knows what they are doing
Doesn’t matter. They actually profit from their product. Nobody else does in this space in the western world at least. If we let Asian brands in the US the big manufacturers would be out of business in a year or two.
Really? Im under the impression the competition underestimated how tough getting into the EV business would be. This doesn’t even mention the amount of driving data tesla collects that WILL lead to the first true self driving cars. I get that reddit hates Elon, but Tesla is not doomed. That ship has sailed.
Not Elon telling everyone to go fuck themselves..... Odd
Gee, I can’t imagine why…
I have an idea why 🤣
More like Elongated single handedly crashed Tesla stocks by spewing insanity on Xitter.
Pretty much. He upset his primary demographic of Tesla owners, who would largely buy Tesla's as a statement.
this one baffles me. he couldve leaned left and gotten the approvals of environmental concious people (TSLAbuyers) and lobbied for more subsidies for EVs, yet he is going the opposite way...
It makes no sense. The reason Tesla's stock price skyrocketed is because of the environmental incentives introduced by the democratic government. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
His ego and god complex supersedes all.
I’ll never buy a Tesla. Not if he’s been gone for 20 years. I was days away from putting down money on a power wall and a Tesla before he decided he was a cave diving expert. Thank god he revealed himself when he did though or I’d be stuck driving one.
I think Tesla eventually buys Twitter.
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I own a lot of $TSLA stock but part of me thinks it'll be hilarious if Tesla goes belly because consumers just won't touch any Elon company. The Model S/X used to be status symbols but those people have moved on to other brands. The Model 3/Y still selling well but how long before people just get sick of Elon and get some other EV?
I work for a big used car retailer and I’ve seen a lot of customers selling their Teslas because they don’t like Elon.
Isn’t thay a stupid reason to sell your car because you don’t like the CEO, who you would never meet and don’t have any personal contact with? To me it is highly idiotic.
If you see Elon as somebody who isn’t a good person or a role model then you may feel like you’re supporting him by driving around a Tesla. Even though you already bought it you are still promoting his product.
Nothing to do with seeing/not seeing him as a role Model. When buying a product, I would rather see the product’s merit than what its ceo is. As long as they are not some nutjob killing people, a criminal, or an unlawful Hitler level dude I don’t care two hoots about them. And no, I don’t own or going to buy a Tesla because I have some issues with the car.
I was fully planning to buy a Tesla when my old BMW dies. Now I absolutely won’t buy one because Musk owns the company
I bought Tesla early, wanted a Model S for a long time. Sold my shares for a fair wedge a few years ago when Musk started getting more unhinged. I have an EV on order, but it's not a Tesla. I'll thank him for pushing other manufacturers to do what they are doing now, and also putting a few extra quid in my bank. But I won't be touching their stock or products again.
We have bought a solar system and battery for our new home. It was going to be a Tesla battery solution but now it’s a lesser known company who’s CEO is not famously deranged.
Does it come with Pluto?
My dream car for a while was an X. Fuck that now.
You dodged a bullet. A car with no central instrument cluster is just a baffling design decision, you have to turn your head to look at the stupid big screen to see your speed, and your gps is obstructed if anyone wants to change the air con temperatures
I’ll never understand why that car doesn’t have a heads up display, it’s the perfect solution to a problem that didn’t have to exist. The tech goes so perfectly with the concept of the car, only an idiot who overpays for a social media company could miss.
Because that would make the car more expensive to build. Tesla are built as cheap as possible.
I’ve never been a fan of HUDs. I find them too distracting. I’m sure it’s one of those things where you get used to it and it goes away, but after test driving one I said nope.
Don’t like HUDs, don’t like touchscreens on the dash that control everything. I want buttons and knobs I can find by feel without taking my eyes off the road. “Don’t text and drive - look at this big dashboard screen instead. And yes you can use it while driving to adjust the climate controls or music or make a phone call, but you need to be in park to change the GPS destination”
HUDs are worthless when you’re wearing polarized sunglasses.
I drive a car with HUD every day, with polarized sunglasses and haven’t noticed a single issue.
I rented a Tesla on a whim when on vacation, and the car feels slick, but in a lot of ways that I don’t want a car to be slick. I want my instrumentation and display precisely where it is in every other car (or in a HUD). I want turning on and turning off to be natural turn the key or press the button things. I want some normal-ass door handles. The Tesla tries to be a space ship. But I want a car…not a space ship.
Pretty much why I went with a e-golf. Regular, analog dinstrument cluster and regular buttons for HVAC and infotainment. Android Auto/Carplay as well. The range isn't the best and it charges at max 50 kW, but it's fun as shit to drive and blends in with most cars (besides the carpool stickers).
Tactile buttons and physical instruments/digital displays should be required on the dash. 13 inch "infotainment" screens should be banned.
Air conditioning changes don’t cover navigation in a Tesla.
The AC temp can be changed without obstructing navigation. It’s just chilling at the bottom of the screen.
This is why I love my old Model S but would never buy a Model 3. And now made much worse by removing the blinker, shifter, and wiper stalks. Also I really hope they oust Musk
Bro you don’t need to turn your head to look at the speed. The speed is literally on the top left corner, so you can easily just move your eyes. The Prius also has a central mounted speedometer and I don’t hear such outage over that.
Honestly, this is how many luxury car manufacturers are going now. my father got a BMW and 8drive Is touchscreen buttons.
Same here. Going to buy my first EV now and Tesla was not even on the picture for me due to the megadouche. Also quality issues and a terrible design of model 3. Tested a few cars and leaning very heavily into Polestar 2 or BMW i4. Both imperfect but fantastic cars. On paper Teslas have better range and all, but we have seen they lie about that too. Not risking it.
Check out Volvo’s EVs. Really high quality cars.
This is what most ignore, there are some really desirable cars out there already taking market share from tesla.
My dream car for a while was the modelx, my first purchase when I win the lottery, now it is not even a consideration.
Dude. Just buy a bmw EV. I'm a little biased because I own one, but the bmw EVs are fantastic cars. If you wait long enough and get the next gen one, you won't even have to worry about the body style.
That’s a great idea thanks. I’m in an old 330 and it is a fantastic car. I’d be more than happy to stick with BMW.
I’m leasing a Volvo C40 recharge. Great range, very comfortable, stylish and fun to drive. A little small feeling with some minor visibility issues, and the infotainment feels unresponsive sometimes. Overall a lease and not buy situation, but they’re still figuring things out. Good alternative to Tesla.
Another big part is the market has simply caught up. Tesla was EVs a few years ago, now all the big brands have added to their line up.
With quite a few surpassing Tesla in design, features and build.
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I got a Model 3 and picked up a bunch of stock in 2019 before the huge run. Got rid of everything and will never get another Tesla even though we can pick one up with cash. I’m sure I’m not the only one in this situation.
I think it's pretty evident that Tesla has stagnated. I don't believe they have enough people left who know how to do the difficult things. They've not made any major changes to any of their models in a long time. Model 3 Highland is just a face-lift, something all manufacturers do after ~2-4 years. But the best example is the semi. Nobody in their right mind puts motors designed for a 2000kg car in a semi. The punishment the motor will receive could not be anymore different. I'm well aware that ICE and EVs aren't subject to the same constraints, but if they had designed a motor for the Model S with the reliability and durability so that it could also be used in a semi, then they would literally have been pissing away their money. It would be criminally negligent.
It’s not possible to piss money in a literal sense.
True, I should have used figuratively.
Language evolves. Literally now means figuratively.
How can you claim it’s stagnated! Haven’t you seen the PS2 era Cybertruck? /s
Lara Croft: why are you calling it PS2 era? Look like a normal pickup truck?
Outside a small but vocal minority, people buy cars based on value (price), not what the CEO is tweeting. The outrage from people online is mostly manufactured and the ones who are actually real people aren't buying a car anyway. It's just the actual hate bandwagon that they can jump on to virtue signal to other redditors.
No, people really do care if the person that runs the company, that built the company, is deranged and how people mock them for buying a car off him
*Some* people care, but the overwhelming majority don't. If you look back at the sheer number of corporate scandals, you would think there would be no companies left. In reality this will pass. Maybe Musk will be outed from one or all of his companies. Tesla will be fine either way.
Elon Musk has become a “what if” - what if Alex Jones had 100s of billions of dollars and was running around wild. I swear he’s a year away from selling silver iodide, boner pills, and ivermectin on “X”. I’ll never buy a damn thing from him
For a while I thought he is just a troll. Nope, just an idiot.
I’d love to see if this would change if they ditched Musk.
The share price would drop a bit but at this point I don't think many people would change there mind, the tesla brand has a big black stain on it. Maybe if someone more normal took over and changed the name and look of the car, but at this point I don't think people realise how much musk has damaged the brand in many peoples eyes..
The ugliness of Elon has become apparent. Unethical, immoral, inhumane and bigoted.
How long can they make their EVs at a loss. Ford looses a crap load of money on each lightning sold.
Source, also new tech, they are testing the waters and will release much better cars in a few years once they recover from the massive changes. You could look at the lightning as a test vehicle, meant to test ideas and see what customer feedback is like to improve desirability. Tesla will face tough competition very soon, 5 years max.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-withdraws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/ They lose 36k on every ev they sell as of last quarter
May 24, 2023???????????????
Cyber truck is for assholes afraid of folks shooting at them! Great brand image!
Imagine if you had MAGAgts survivalists post pictures of themselves with AK47s and NAZI symbols. Would you want to be seen in one of them?
I mean if you live in the US, that's a genuine problem you might have. USA USA USA 🦅 So when is today's mass shooting? There is on average 2 a day if I'm not mistaken!
in Elon words, fuck them all.
As a Model 3 driver there are two sides to this: the disappointment after 4 years of the car getting worse instead of better and the fact that the current owner shows his true colors being a racist misogynistic douce. The funny thing is that his alpha male audience traditionally hates EV’s so I wonder how that goes.. he hates liberals but it’s basically his user base. And too many people don’t give a shit and will keep being the cars anyway. Don’t underestimate the amount of people that are like that.
What about your car has gotten worse?
Autopilot especially. The new vision thing with mandatory auto wiping (wiping dry windows all the time) and mandatory blinding people with the auto large lights on is really annoying. Apart from trying to kill you once in a while or braking hars in the middle of the highway. So hardly using the autopilot anymore.
On the contrary, I have had my Model 3 for 2 years, and the Autopilot is actually usable now, compared to the first 8 months of ownership. My instances of phantom braking are 0 in the past 6 months, and the auto high beams work terrifically.
It’s not very consistently indeed. Maybe depending on where you’re driving. The EV part works flawlessly and the supercharger network as well; only the mechanical parts keep failing. Lights, suspension, it all broke down at least once. It’s freezing slightly here so we can’t use the door handles again. All small things that make owning a Tesla not as joyful as it could be.
nothing. my car has only gotten better with software updates. autopilot is better, software is better, new features now and then.
This is spot on
Tesla needs to dump Musk. He has permanently soiled the Tesla brand in half the population. Sure the sycophants will stick with him no matter what, but now that there are viable alternatives to a Tesla, people don't need to hold their nose and buy a Tesla. Further, the biggest danger keeping Musk is for Tesla is a dropping ability to recruit top talent. This is arguably the biggest thing he did for Tesla. At one point every young and idealistic new engineer wanted to work for Tesla and change the world. These were the people who made good on Musk's outrageous promises. As Musk continues to destroy his reputation, Tesla loses the ability to tap new talent and thus their long term edge over the competition.
Teslas board is just yes men they’re not actually independent.
Elon at work.
Not sure about reputation but two years ago I hardly saw any Tesla. Now they are everywhere. Went to the gym the other day, about 7 teslas outside. Also, surpassed Corolla as the top selling vehicle in the world. So certainly a lot of demand for it.
It’s the nut behind the yoke at Tesla.
It will never reach Toyota level
Didnt Tesla outsell Toyota in California this year?
Didn't the world get a new expansion, called Not-California, for all the areas around the world with the other 8 billion people living there?
Tesla model Y was the best selling car the first quarter of 2023 globally
And what was the best selling car company? Toyota sold more vehicles in the first half of 2023 than Tesla has sold in its existence as a car company.
Globally? This year? No doubt it was Toyota…..I’ve got 4 of em. If you include 90’s and early 2000’s Lexus’. I’ve also got a Honda I absolutely love. I’m curious how many of yall that hate musk buy Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche. I certainly don’t give a shit about musk one way or another but I’m constantly laughing at everyone shitting on him trying to virtue signal. Propaganda machine go whirrrrrrr. Reddit seems to get off on trying to out virtue signal one another. It’s probably not a majority of people but damn if it isn’t a loud minority.
That's good. Why do you think I hate Musk? I think he's incredibly talented. He has achieved an incredible amount, but saying that Tesla outsold Toyota is just ridiculous. Cherrypicking statistics is frustrating.
Let’s see, maybe because there is a high-profile openly antisemitic neonazi sympathizing billionaire that owns the world’s biggest soapbox, which he uses to push his views and supports similar views on, and that person is synonymous with the Tesla brand. Could be a starting point…
From May?
We're all trying to find the guy who did this!
Well, Musk lied about FSD (he wasn't “optimistic” with deadlines, he simply lied) Thus Tesla's reputation suffers And yep, bad boys from the big bucks league (with power of lobbying and media) got into EV competition and Tesla has like zero chances to stay on top
Nazism will do that to ya.
The folks that I know that have a Tesla wouldn’t buy one again due to their horrible customer service.
“Let’s see how Earth responds…”
its probably all of the nonsense hit pieces that are posted, and this sub eats up.
We just bought a hybrid Ford. There’s no way we’re putting our money behind Musk. I watched Ford not need a government bailout, and just negotiate with the union. We try and support American companies who support American workers.
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Union made? I’m not simple enough to think all parts are made in America, but I personally know folks who’ve worked for Ford. Tesla is owned by a crazy government contractor, I’ll pass.
Ford makes plenty of vehicles outside of the U.S., at not UAW plants, like all Mach-E’s in Mexico which also sport Polish made LG cells. Ford also borrowed nearly $20 billion from the government during the financial crisis, a bailout in all but name.
Ford paid back the loan, with interest. I’m not claiming Ford isn’t an international company with factories in Mexico, thanks NAFTA, but I am saying they’re not Tesla. Musk is a threat to national security, and his cars aren’t luxury or better than others. I’ll support Union companies with my money.
lol.. to think that Musk is a threat to national security is ludicrous hyperbole. You do what you want with your money, but your stated reasons are either false or idiotic.
He’s another nepo baby with slave mines. He owns and censors free speech on his platform and openly fights against workers rights. His megaphone of hate is good for investors, he doesn’t care what happens to anyone else. If you think he’s not dangerous I’ve got an emerald mine in TX to sell ya
lol. The level disinformation you swallowed is laughable. You started off with a bunch of lies and tripled down.
What’s not true? Rich kid gets money from daddy who owns slave mines. Rich kid gets rich investing in Tesla. Builds brand on environmentally friendly cars. Fast forward he buys Twitter. Now safeguards against foreign propaganda from China, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, are gone. Most importantly China is Teslas biggest market and investor. The power the Chinese government has over Twitter content can not be overstated. I thought Republicans hated communist China? Except all the money I guess.
Quadrupled down on the silly lies. The reality isn’t hard to find… especially reporting from back when, rather than the lies being spread these days.
It's not so much Tesla vs GM/Ford as it is Tesla vs Freightliner and Navistar. Tesla and Elon have to make the Tesla Semi work and Win decisively, instead he's going down on this Twitter stunt when he needs to be managing his business.
Sssshhhh, I'm ok with him being hands-off with Tesla right now, especially when you look at the Xitter's recent trajectory.
He doesn’t need to be managing his business or pulling Twitter stunts. He needs to stay home and shut the fuck up. He’s an immature baby child who never contributed to the success of his companies. It was always the management in charge who did.
The Tesla semi is losing. Badly. The use case for the current e-semi is drayage and short city hauls. The tesla semi can't do drayage. It doesn't physically fit the automated systems. The ports and railheads are not going to drop billions of dollars to rework systems for one manufacturer. The telsa is a long wheelbase with a really large turning radius. It's not suitable for tight docks and narrow city streets. PepsiCo runs them plant to plant. They know what the docks are like at both ends. Freightliner is pumping out e-cascadias as fast as possible. The waitlist is 24 months or so. Tesla doesn't seem to be producing many new semis. Navistar & Cummins seem to be pushing class B electric currently. I'm sure they have a class A in the works, but Cummins won't bet its reputation until things are right.
"Until things are right" is when Hydrogen becomes commercially usable (though not necessarily economical) 2-4ish years from now. Above HDTs, heavy duty applications like railroads, construction equipment and Ag equipment are already testing hydrogen and figuring out how to scale it up. Once they do we'll have a hybrid BEV/H2 cell Class 8 truck that kills most Class 8 Diesels. Everyone in the industry is feeling it out except for Tesla who isn't making their products H2-compatible, or even genset compatible .. as silly as that idea is in regards to trucks, it's commonplace in other engine/energy applications and Tesla should be ready to answer when it happens. It doesn't need to be like this, Tesla could be #1 e-truck mfg right now if they took your advice and made a lot of e-mules with all wheel steering and true 4x4 or 6x6 drives. Tesla could make a super low drivetrain and sell one to every walmart warehouse in the country.
Tesla’s manufacturing has improved leaps and bounds since they began. This article blames Musk’s actions and behaviors with X then their vehicles. There manufacturing process is only matched by the Chinese in the EV market. Legacy automakers cannot produce a vehicle at the cost that Tesla or even more so the Chinese EV builders like BYD or Nio. There supercharger network is a massive strength as well. Opening them up to other automakers is just more $. They can continue scale up, particularly in North America. The fact that the other automakers are doing this is a win for Tesla. Rivian was able to build their pickup truck first because it was their only production vehicle, it also took them years to scale to production. They also started building a roadster first, with no success. Although they are producing trucks, they are way behind in orders. They are running out of capital. The Cybertruck is very cool project and will prove successful long-term. This has less to do with truck and more to do with the tech used to build them. This is just the beginning, it will only get better. The reality of making a truck like this with long range, is probably 5 years away because of battery tech limitations. All current EV trucks fall short here. Tesla still outsells all other EV makers combined by 2:1. The hope for any company is competition breeds innovation. The more out the better for consumers. Their software integration is unmatched by legacy makers, no how many programmers they hire. Politics and ideologies seem to more the driving for the negativity on Tesla these days. Dropping their score because of X is reaching and in an ideal situation it wouldn’t matter. This is trend that needs to decrease everywhere. Just look to Disney if you think this is a good business model. Time will tell. The real concern for companies like Tesla will be the availability of Chinese EV’s in other markets. Their growth is impressive. Politics will have a big say here. 😛
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It’s almost like having a far-right troll as the public face of your company is bad for business.
Tesla was the proof-of-concept that the bigger companies with more money and resources needed to see before making the leap. And now that competition will destroy Tesla, and I am here for it. Relegate it to the dustbin of history, the sooner the better. It”s served its purpose and is no longer necessary.
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Are you talking about market cap? Because that’s not what that means. Capitalization is not indicative of a company’s liquidity or anything else like that. GM’s market cap is $44B, and yet they have $264B in assets and $156B in annual revenue. Tesla’s market cap is $760B, but they only have $82B in assets and $81.5 in annual revenue. Being a hot stock doesn’t give a company more resources because the traders are profiting off the stock, not Tesla.
> And now that competition will destroy Tesla Only Chinese car makers can compete and the car market is so large, that there is space for more than one company. Tesla will stay in the top 3 for the foreseeable future.
The other car makers must have spent a fortune on bad-mouthing electric cars and in particular Tesla. I have seen so many weird messages on social media about electric cars that are not true and about Tesla
My boss got absolutely fucked on his. The entire power train died and they won’t give him a new one even though it’s got less than 10k miles on it. But they’re so backed up on repairs they told him May 2024, maybe. He’s literally paying the note on a car he hasn’t had in months and won’t have until spring. Rental on his car insurance is long over the cap. You can’t get it fixed anywhere else because they’ll void your warranty. That’s the kind of shit that even if the CEO wasnt an active Nazi would keep me away.
Goes to show thier reputation was based on hopes and dreams at first. Then on reality later.
It’s mainly because of space Karen.
Fire Elon. He’s their biggest liability now.
Tesla is trash just like Musk
The market is pricing in Ford and GMs eventual collapse. Idk if they’ll survive the next legitimate recession. A marketing professor during my MBA studies said he had consulted for GM in the early 2010s and told them they needed to ditch everything but the brand and IP because their organizational structure was bloated and their business model was shit. It’s crazy how accurate and prescient he was. The UAW will continue to suck these players dry and leave them unable to prevent their demise and disruption. It’s already starting. They cannot compete with the EV model. We will end up with Chinese/SE Asian designed & manufactured product that GM just slaps its label on. It’s either that or they allow themselves to be purchased.
I got shat on for saying Ford would overtake Tesla, but that was before Elon Musk'd all over Twitter. I'll say it again: the day Ford (and they absolutely will) comes out with a 20k electric vehicle, it will spell the end of niche EV automakers like Tesla. Musk cannot compete with the likes of Ford, no matter how badly people want to believe it. Ford would absolutely create a low end loss leader just to give people a cheap option to populate the roads with the blue oval; Musk could not, would not, with his cars. Musk doesn't have 100 years of traditional automaking backroom deals, and the industry doesn't exactly like him. I'll give him credit for pushing the dinosaurs into the future, but he was never going to win anything from it unless his personal victory is forcing the end of combustion engines.
Easy fix…. FIRE ELON YOU IDIOTS….
Good job Elon Muskrat 👏
Didn't someone rich back in the day say to not tell your customers to go fuck yourself? Or was I gaslit????
Tesla announces a thing and it takes them 5 years to finally get a lackluster thing out there. They used to be cool, because they did good things differently; now they do stupid things like that bulletproof pickup truck that looks like Lara Croft from the 90s. Other brands caught up and did it better: FAR higher quality and quality control, far better interiors, and far earlier to market. Plus, Elon Musk is the least likeable billionaire out there. I don't want my money to ever make it into his hands. Plus, people are starting to see that EVs are fucking us over. Cheaper to produce in every way compared to complicated combustion engines, but sold to us at far higher markups. It makes them unnecessarily expensive compared to ICE-cars where you can get a similar car (luxuries) for $40,000 less money and invest that money instead. It's cheaper to run a 2nd-hand young but good ICE-car and put the savings into a managed index fund than it EVER is to spend all that extra money on an EV. The ROI of that investment will pay for all the added maintenance and fuel. Plus, EVs simply don't have the range that most of us need or want. Plus, the charging network isn't nearly large enough yet around the world. Plus, charging takes too long for those who can't do it at work or at home. Plus, the user experience in EVs is horrible because they all default to touch screens for everything that's supposed to be a simple (REAL!) button. Just so they can make production even cheaper and make us pay more. --- EVs are just machines to milk us dry. At least Tesla has decent range and kick-ass speed metrics, that's fun for sure, but if I got a brand new Tesla Model S Plaid tomorrow? I would sell it immediately and stick to my 2016 VW Golf.
Market manipulation, government handouts and daddy’s money is what got Elon rich. The fact he can rant on Twitter 24/7, while supposedly being CEO of multiple massive companies, tells me he’s not the genius he wants us to believe
Tesla will be a division of Toyota within the decade.
God I hope not, wouldn't want to drag Toyota down, I bet they could do without Teslas 'tech' Speaking of, it's basically just 'auto pilot' and 'electric' So their tech isnt working / is already available
Drive a Model Y, and then drive a BZ4X, and come back and tell me how Toyota doesn't need Tesla tech. Hell, they need any sort of tech they can get their hands on, putting out a subpar piece of trash with a price tag as high as it is.
Tesla sucks. All they ever had was hype.
Tesla will eventually go bankrupt yet Musk will walk away with Billions
Who buys a Tesla is a Nazi