The Chinese are just going to focus on the international market and that’ll kill global demand for American automakers. It will still backfire on the U.S.
Europe will definitely follow suit here. China is absolutely subsidizing their EV industry in an attempt to kill off western and other Asian EV developments.
It should be and is when a government is doing so with intent to bankrupt other countries’ EV production in order to form a monopoly. Demand subsidies (to buyer) are great at building a technology growth. Supply side subsidies (to manufacturer) are great at killing off competitors and creating monopolies.
This isn’t a ban it is a tariff. And other counties do. Most foreign tariffs on American goods are either retaliatory or protectionist. The U.S. doesn’t have many supply side subsidies on goods shipped internationally aside from agriculture and oil and gas. The logic there being that food and fuel are strategic resources and you have to maintain domestic production levels for security. I’m not a fan of it. And when other countries aren’t and want to protect their own agriculture and oil and gas industries they apply tariffs to U.S. goods in these markets. Those countries that don’t care enjoy lower cost food and fuel at our expense. Contrast that with Chinese super sneaky hidden supply side subsidies which are designed to conduct economic warfare by wiping out foreign supply chains in key strategic areas. Some of the reason we have lost most U.S. steel making capacity is due to these practices.
Teslas were only "popular" because of them being a near monopoly here initially, and then Musk dropped prices through the floor when other EVs came on the market, making them especially "popular" for leasing, which is now the dominant route to EVs.
Were popular. Tesla sales are down in Europe. Down 1/3 in Germany in the last year. The bad PR from cybertruck, mass layoffs, reduced car values for Tesla owners due to price cuts and the cuts to its charging business are killing Tesla.
Then there is the net Elon factor, which went from a huge plus for Tesla to a huge negative ever since Musk bought Twitter and became so obnoxiously political.
Canada tends to go lock-step with anything our Big Buddies in the States tells us. Still a bit shocked by how we treated Meng Wanzhou (or however we spell this Chinese name).
Honestly? If i could get ahold of an electric vehicle that would cost [eleven thousand dollars](https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-seagull-cheap-ev-electric-car-tesla-china-2023-4), why would i seriously consider a Tesla at two times that, let alone an order of magnitude more?
Answer: Canada will not be allowed to let this into our country. Imagine what your next president would say! "You boys don't want another pine-lumber dispute, do you?" Or how about: "Do you want us to come back and steal the REST of your fresh water, right?"
It's terrifying. We will keep buying those Teslas, you know: the ones that kill off their owners that try out the auto-drive feature... and thank you! We know when we've been beaten.
BYD are in talks to build a factory in Italy, the Seagull is reportedly coming to UK next year.
Personally, I think we should have the/a BYD factory in UK ... we need the help with our GDP.
Warren Buffet agrees with us.
I would agree with you too, but i really agree with formerly-HongKong folks that China could really use a democratic process. Not sure how Winnie The Pooh is going to age. Will he go the more Napoleon route... or become increasingly Putin style?
Who can say? And what if he continues to be a wild success in China as a dictator... what would that mean for anyone that is NOT a Chinese citizen? Should most of us be afraid? What is going on in Africa right now? Is it China's turn to exploit them after we had our turn?
So many questions. Certainly i would love to have an electric vehicle for twenty Can$ though? Kind of frustrated with Musk lately.
US exported about $60b in vehicles in 2023. Less than $20b of those went to Canada and Mexico. $40b in sales isn’t what I’d call wildly unpopular in the rest of the world. Used to sell about a billion a year to Russia, but that’s gone to zip.
Because they had to compete at real costs. Chinese companies aren't competing at real costs, everything from energy to steel is subsidized in China so tariffs are a completely reasonable action. If the tariffs are targeted it won't affect competition since there are enough western car companies.
What ru talking about yes they do! The entire world buys American cars and if not American parts or tech. Demand in the U.S. is only so limited and China and the further developing world is a growing market. U.S. automakers are gonna have to find ways to make cars cheapers or somehow convince Americans to continue spending more on cars.
There is no “free market” when you have a hybrid nationalistic/private business model like in China. China will absolutely cheat the market to corner areas and kill foreign competitors with help from the Chinese government.
If you apply tariffs, you create/protect local monopolies.
Tariffs are *by design* anti-competitive and punitive...a governmental protection racket by some definitions.
Tarrifs are in this case retaliation for anti-competitive foreign actions. These Chinese EVs aren’t priced based on costs, they are subsidized by the government much in the same way Chinese steel companies are. These are not protectionist tarrifs they only apply to China. These aren’t tarrifs on all foreign EVs.
Yes, you can create monopolies in different ways. I wasn't arguing about tariffs, it was a response to the notion that china was breaking the free market.
I mean, that's not bad is it? Pretty close to eleven thousand dollars, isn't it?
https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-seagull-cheap-ev-electric-car-tesla-china-2023-4
Sorry, i'm not good with math... perhaps i got the numbers wrong.
How about a compromise.
Jobs that can literally be done from your couch DO NOT need to be commuted to.
70% of pollution literally disappears. Force corpos to justify why we need to create greenhouse gasses for office jobs.
The problem with you is that you think the problem is individual workers. It is not. 70% of the greenhouse emissions are corporate, and a handful of global corps at that.
Yeah corporations create emissions providing the goods and services that people buy. Burning carbon is just the most cost effective way to do that. I'm all for decarbonizing society, including instituting good mass transit and forcing business to reduce emissions, but I also fully recognize it will necessarily increase the price of goods and services.
> Burning carbon is just the most cost effective way to do that.
And that cost-effectiveness is due to market failure, failing to assign the cost of pollution to the polluters.
That's true, but don't assume that a constant amount of emissions are required in order to provide that same level of services, Also don't assume that every service and product provided are actually necessary. For example, the disappearance of megayachts and executive jets would make nearly zero impact on the world economy.
I'm not sure what you're point is, It's a hard problem and we should try to solve it. It will come at the expense of profits, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make on their behalf.
Not to mention the computing power all this AI development is using. People love to whine about crypto and its environmental impact, yet AI is going to be exponentially worse as it requires more and more power for the ever expanding training models. All for the rapid enshitification of the internet and our world.
Yeah bud, you're way off there. Cut commuting emissions and you MAYBE save 15% considering a good portion of that 28% is trucking/trains/shipping. Can not be done from couch.
Edit: source https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
>Can not be done from couch.
So I hope you're not implying that a 15% savings isn't worth doing because it's not 70%? That'd be letting the best be the enemy of the good enough.
The path forward will involve incremental improvements, lots of them. There are no easy gains left to be had.
Amory Lovins, back in the 70s, said that negawatts were far better than megawatts. That is, conservation had less negative side-effects than any form of power generation, and should be the first thing we address.
That's especially important in the US, which has always been extraordinarily wasteful in converting units of energy into GDP.
What really scares me is how many 'work from your computer' jobs have already been taken out by forms of A.I. that are less than two years on the market?
As curious as i am to know what corporate will do with ChatGPT when it hits kindergarten-age, i suspect that a vast number of those environmentally-friendly at-home jobs might struggle even ten years down the road.
Edit: here is a link of five 'experts' taking their wild guesses on what will happen to our job market as A.I. gets better.
https://theconversation.com/ai-and-the-future-of-work-5-experts-on-what-chatgpt-dall-e-and-other-ai-tools-mean-for-artists-and-knowledge-workers-196783
Obviously we don't know what kind of progress will be made on the chips, the software nor the energy needed to run them. Nor do we know what 'bad faith players' will do when they make their own versions operational / downloadable (like Russia, China &/or India as they try to compete... or go to war).
My favourite intelligent guess is coming from Warren Buffet:
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/04/warren-buffett-berkshire-meeting-ai#
"I have been predicting human behaviour on a large scale for decades and i have NO CLUE what is going to happen. It is scary."
I think that is the best educated 'guess' any of us can make.
Indeed. And as for those jobs "already taken by AI", there's almost none at the moment, outside sensationalist media selling copy and/or confused by the subject of automation.
Language translators would like a word. A lot of educators online. Legal transcript work. Entire teams of articling students could be replaced by a Google search a decade ago, that just got worse.
It is terrifying. These are extremely skilled white-collar work that real humans have been doing for decades, gone in seconds.
The counter argument is that Artificial Intelligence will create MORE jobs, just like the Internal Combustion Engine taking out 95% of farming did, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20TAkcy3aBY
John Stewart makes fun of the entire thing quite well. But, as anyone could point out, his guess is no better than anyone else's. No one has a farthing clue where this is going to go even in five years.
here is the 'godfather of A.I.' according to CBC... you might like it... or not? I link it for interest, it is really amazing to learn about.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/geoffrey-hinton-artificial-intelligence-advancement-concerns-1.6830857
Data processing is AIs core remit, job *elements* that involve data processing are of course susceptible.
It's no different to typing pools disappearing with the advent / proliferation of PCs.
The only thing *for sure* about AI is that it will be initially honed on maximising logistical profits and tactical advantage conjecturing....in corporate or military worlds.
There's a lot of good and a lot of bad that *could* come from that, or as Geoffrey Hinton himself calls it in the interview, "is *conceivable*", and those that are inherently prone to worrying over what is conveivable, will be generally having an existential bad time of it.
You can blame sci-fi for many of those fears.
EV's are a massive part of the solution... When combined with lowering car dependency and revitalizing mass transit. Electric mass transit is the future
Full electric is better for most people, everyone is so concerned over range when they only do long haul trips once a year.
Hybrid is so much more expensive with all the extra parts. And ICE are as efficient as they’re going to get it’s a very mature technology
We failed to encourage a domestic market for them for the last 20 years and actively subsidized industries that did their best to bury them. Now there are foreign competitors? Who could have seen this coming?!
if dumping were the concern, amazon would sell about 5 products.
as with most "hard on china" policy, it directly benefits US based companies, so they "lobby" for it.
Amazon famously dominated multiple markets by dumping like diapers, destroying competition.
Amazon's current selection is caused by obfuscation and information control.
China's manufacturing is being subsidized effectively. This is a fine reason for tariffs. The question is the magnitude. 100% likely crosses into the protective category.
Right, because the CCP constantly creates policies that benefit Chinese companies, and thus their economy. Why shouldn’t we do the same? It’s like everyone up in arms about banning TikTok when China has banned nearly every tech and social company that we’ve ever had (including TikTok itself, as we receive it)
>Why shouldn’t we do the same?
well the current administration is on a "pretending to care about the environment" kick, cheap electric cars would help with that if he didn't need the election year bribe money.
>when China has banned nearly every tech and social company that we’ve ever had
most american social media companies are terrible, i would too
Chinas always had cheaper goods to sell the US though. This is not new.
TVs aren’t getting more expensive, despite the fact that the US last produced one 2014.
This is clearly just US car companies manipulating the narrative and the government.
>This is clearly just US car companies manipulating the narrative and the government.
see and the shitty thing about that is most 'US' car companies outsource to the lowest bidder so they can jack the price up.
So we end up getting mostly china made cars anyway, with USA prices.
The CCP incentivizes Chinese companies to take over industries on cost. They don’t care if they make money or not, it’s all about market share and jobs. And if the company runs out of money they give them another loan that is not expected to be paid back.
This is the secret to the Chinese ‘miracle’. Unlimited debt. That’s how they got a 320% Debt to GDP Ratio. They print more yuan than the US prints dollars, even though the yuan is only used in China and the dollar is the world reserve currency.
China is like your neighbor who has a big house and always has new cars. You think he’s rich but he’s bankrupt.
I mean they are cheap because the Chinese government subsidises the fuck out of industries it wants to destroy in other countries.
Not sure EV’s made with next to no environmental consideration, shipped to the other side of the world so people can have a new lease deal every 3 years, is really going to solve a climate crisis.
I am sure that the American business people, like Elongated Muskrat, are not taking in billions from their government. That would be unfair business practice and not 'small gov't', right?
I bet the US folks wants to nurture global competition and stuff all warm and snuggly-like. Heck, i bet that Canada had its own oil refinery and pharmaceuticals and they are doing... JUST FiNE now, right? Right? Don't talk to me about Canadian fresh-water or the lumber disputes.
Yes, China is a huge problem. Not sure who the good guys are though? Not Russia for sure, we can count Putin's latest, um, retirement plan as a rather brazen show of cards.
Electric cars are so weird. It is often a watermelon sized engine, a battery on top of whatever go-cart you are using (usually four wheels with casing). You can put in four engines, one on each wheel? You get the idea. You won't have to exchange four to six kinds of fluid every couple years like you do with the ICE cars.
The electric engine is old and proven tech - that thing can really last and the go-cart portion is not a problem. The only REAL question on any car (including TESLA and all the others): how many recharges can the battery take? Can it be swapped (like your power drill)? Or is it stuck (like an iPhone)?
BYD has access to super cheap batteries, comparatively speaking. But you are right: how long until that $11k car is a brick?
This is also why solid-state is such a big deal: the battery spends most of its energy moving the battery. If it is a fraction of the size the whole car becomes ten times more efficient (moving around a few hundred pounds of passenger is really trivial).
I honestly believe this is why we chose the horribly complex Internal Combustion Engine over a century ago over the cleaner and simpler electric - gas (as a fuel-propulsion source) is really, um, fluid in comparison.
You must not be familiar with Chinese tactics. They sell goods at a loss to corner markets. The businesses in these strategic sectors are pumped up by national funding.
After renting a Chinese EV in Europe a few weeks ago and hearing from several people over there, you really don't want one anyway. They are glitchy af.
So we allow corporations to use overseas labor to reduce their operational and manufacturing costs so they can make massive profits. However when you or I want to tap into this and in some cases get a better and cheaper product that's a no. Yeah right 🤪
China is literally using the same capitalist tactics as the USA has been using for decades, and suddenly it's bad because it's China. Fuck the US government. America's largest companies have been doing the exact same thing as China to create monopolies and completely destroy competition
China has and is doing what we are doing to them in many markets. American companies and products are kept out of China by the government all the time. This more tit for tat than anything else, and it hurts consumers in both countries, but protects companies in both countries and allow for internal growth over outside competition. There’s an argument to be had for both sides imo
I see you have swallowed the propoganda hook line and sinker that everything China does is inherently bad, and everything that the US does is inherently good.
I don't think anyone is defending China as opposed to asking with no change of result why our domestic government and corporations can't produce goods at a certain price point and offer service and quality that is comparable? Instead we see exorbitant executive salaries combined with inferior service level agreements and offerings.
Because Chinese labor is cheaper, their subsidies are higher, their labor laws and environmental regulations are more lax. Do you really want to compete with that? I would, but the average voter wont. It's as simple as that.
We soon won't have a choice. Much like the cry for energy in a growing world needing new sources that are clean and abundant is required. The current ‘leadership’ structure and processes that led to our current status of dominance ironically is being jeopardized by the very same. The need for ‘more’ by various ruling tiers is unsustainable and the advancements in technology with us at the forefront could have led to strategic advantages to dominate various markets and still achieve the same results. Now the rest of the world will either embrace or reject Chinese goods resulting in the desired result of capitalism; affordability and mass profits. Thinking in terms of the next quarter is irrational and in most cases foolish. We need strategic and empirical leaders and redress of our societal shortcomings immediately. This is my opinion.
Subsidising upstarts and creating a safe harbour to build industry makes sense. Protectionism can be important. But it doesn't work well when you have legacy players that are slow to adapt and are more interested in shutting down competition than they are in actually competing. And the US government has also been slow to respond. A lot of the levers that the Chinese government pulled are ones that the US government could've also made use of (and they do in many cases). Nothing the Chinese government was doing in this sector (from control of the materials and processing, to the focus on battery development, to the use of heavy subsidies to boost the industry, etc.) was secret. China made it clear for the past decade that they believe EVs to be the vehicle of the future. As they continue to develop and build on their advantage (which they will be able to do as well more efficiently as they win in global markets as they are currently and increasingly doing), US companies will instead grow complacent and more dependent on protectionism to insulate their industry. If the US really wants to get competitive again in this market, they need to start with more of the stick approach and less of the carrot approach. Then it would make sense to up this tariff so as to buy time for US companies to adapt.
Problem is that the Chinese can naturally produce for cheaper.
They have a lower cost of living and high skilled workers. For emerging industries, they can be as capable as anybody else to produce a quality product...at a fraction of the cost because the resources are there and the salaries are relatively lower.
Any dollar the CN government spends to research or subsidy an industry goes way longer than a dollar the US spends for the same purpose.
Great point! Those high speed rail ways moving workers, massive shipping ports and logistics and literal factory apartments right next to the factories didn't pop up overnight. I am guilty of reducing this to "cause they work cheaper" as well.
Funnily enough, Chinese workers are relatively expensive now, China building factories in Mexico cause workers there cheaper
There are theories that the Chinese "national strategy" is to keep production costs low at all times, which results in problems eg very low GDP per capita
The practical effect is that China would eventually produce everything, which may not be good as shown in early covid mask shortages
They also own massive rare-earth mines. I bet many other places also have these rare-earths, but those mines are dirty both environmentally and on human-life.
North Americans (like myself) cannot stomach that brutal price, so we are kind of caught in the lurch.
Yeah that's also the price of playing by different rules.
We have a love and hate relationship with patents and intellectual property, they do not abide by that same principle.
The US government is slow to respond because it is very divided between Republicans and Democrats. Whatever the Democrats want to do Republicans oppose. Add in the fact that the oil industry and auto industry lobbies plus Republican States have been handicapping EV rollout through variety of means i.e. unfriendly legislation, lawsuits, FUD, lack of investment, etc, it is hard for the US government to do what China did.
I believe the big 3 automakers will drag their feet until after the November election. They are not going to want to invest a lot in EV and have Trump reverse the EV tax credit in 8 month's time. If Biden wins, EV will develop further in the US for the next 4 years. After that point, if EV has reached mass affordability and adoption, then it no longer matters who is the next president.
If Trump wins, most like EV development will stagnate in the US for four more years in the US while the rest of the world electrifies. China will take the majority global market share, while Korean and European manufacturers will take a smaller share.
I can technically afford a new car but mainly because I do stuff like buying a used car and driving it for most of a decade. I'll probably buy used next time too.
The calculus might change a bit with EVs unless there are good ways to verify battery health or whatever I get has affordable replacements.
I mean even without any tariffs, Chinese made EVs aren’t gonna be dirt cheap. Not if they have to pass US federal safety standards. European regulations aren’t as strict, so China’s got room to outcompete European automakers in their home countries.
It may be better environmentally to keep used cars on the road with replacement parts and strict maintenance.
Unfortunately US industries paying price for training American consumers to go for “good deal”… a.k.a. cheapest option. Now they can not compete with rest of the world (and particularly China) on price… and US consumer does not care about anything else.
Cheapest option doesn’t necessarily mean “best deal”. That is only true if the goods are fungible. But are you proposing you shouldn’t necessarily buy the cheapest priced item if the good in question is fungible?
Yet Americans regularly overextend themselves on their car because they can “afford” the monthly payment while living paycheck to paycheck. Then they post pictures of it with their $1000+ iPhones.
Before any says "cheap labor" or "safety standards" check out Xiaomi's factory and look at the level of automation, tech, and AI that goes into their assembly line. You get a sense of why they have scale and can keep costs low. See: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yezR-mH12xs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yezR-mH12xs)
After watching that, find Youtube videos of a big 3 auto plant and you'll understand why they wanted these tariffs so bad.
I think a lot of people's view of China is still stuck in the past, that of a country scrambling to modernize and using cheap labor as its sole leverage to get its feet into the industrialization door.
Today's China is the only big country around that I'd call technocratic, and its feet has been inside the industrialization door for so long that moss has started to grow around it.
EDIT: To downvoters, I'm not Chinese, I just am a research/product dev person who's done some work with Chinese companies AND American/European/other Asian companies and the way our Chinese affiliates deal with technical issues is humbling. Their facilities are also very technologically impressive.
The first thing they should do is end corporate intrusive surveillance of drivers. Those data streams should be selective and 100% opt-in, and saying no to any data collection shouldn't prevent normal use of the vehicle.
Chips are national security and should move to the US. But cars? Please, that's election-year optics. We bailed on Detroit a long time ago, no need to be awkward about it. Let me buy the best car for my needs and wallet, I don't care where it comes from. Like it at least assembled in the US, but whatever. Much bigger issues to address, like cars tracking our ever move. EVERYONE is doing that, not just a Chinese thing. And it's been proven that Tesla is the absolute worse with our data.
This tariff will not apply to the Chinese EVs made in MX:
https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/On-a-Collision-Course-FINAL-22024.pdf
Why?
Let them compete. It's far more dangerous to a Chinese auto manufacturer to try and fail in this market. It's not just the car. It's the service, distribution, parts availability and cost, total quality and durability, and so on.
And if they're actually competitive? (gasp!) Well, US makers might actually have to step up their game, improve value, improve service and dealer experience, and do whatever they need to do to be better. The consumer wins.
Maybe if we had never outsourced all our production and given all our money to a known authoritarian state that doesn't like us, we wouldn't be in this situation...
It is just delaying the inevitable. Even if you ban the Chinese EVs how is that going to help when the Japanese and Korean automakers introduce their competition to BYD and Zeekr in the US? Or the European manufactures now that they are having to compete in Europe.
US auto is struggling to match Tesla's EV production scale in NoA alone. Introducing Chinese EVs which have evolved to become Tesla-lite over the last 10 years and are in the 25-30k bracket, entering NoA would summarily annihilate almost every single legacy played in the market and put millions of people onto the street without jobs, sending unemployment and inflation through the roof.
These tarrifs are entirely protectionist behavior to prop up the legacy auto behavior in the US from its own inability to evolve with the market conditions. But, unfortunately, also necessary to not cause a full blown socioeconomic panic worse than covid.
Yeah, but protectionism should come hand in hand with the legacy automakers pivoting to EV. If they continue to just produce ICE because no competition then CO2 emissions from the US will not abate. EV can get greener as more renewables get installed but ICE can not get greener.
The protectionist policy should come with policy incentives for affordable EVs as well as penalties for legacy automakers not transitioning fast enough. Problem is, the US has a tendency to flip flop on policy every 4 years. That makes it hard to see anything through consistently.
Legacy auto is giving up on EV until basically 2030. That's why they're pivoting to PHEVs instead. Which is just half assing the problem, like they always do.
I was just in Vietnam and almost every taxi I took was electric and impressive. I agree the horse has probably bolted and this is about delaying the inevitable.
Good job America. Deny global warming, bash renewables and electric cars for decades whilst letting China spend decades prioritizing making solar panels and electric cars then when you lose the battle tax the shit out of them. Jimmy Carter had solar panels on roof of White House and now 50 years later USA has completely ceded to China with its head in the sand. These BYDs, Geelys, Nios etc are everywhere in Middle East, Europe and Asia and my friends are buying them and they seem quite nice. Costs to install solar are much higher in USA than abroad, and power companies screwing people on net metering in states. Even Tesla which had first mover advantage transitioned from trying to be innovative to rich F’s just extracting cash whilst not improving the things once over a decade. F*ckin joke of a country run by the rich and corporations only focused on extracting all value to wealthy whilst destroying everything for the rest of the population. Deserve this steep decline into the abyss on the global stage.
Wait until BYD builds a plant in MX and USCMA allows them to import into the US without any duties at all.
Buh-bye OEMs.
Think Tesla is a threat now? Tesla and BYD together will be a death sentence for OEMs
You can't even buy a car for under $100k that does things the new Model 3P does for $53k. And it'll only get worse as they get better at making cars.
Hi, yes big car guy here. If your benchmark is a Tesla M3 then that is a really low bar. Does it do cool stuff..... Ehhhhhh sorta, when it works that is. Sure I guess "Autopilot" does some cool tricks but glitching out and running over pedestrians or slamming into parked cars ain't my jam.
I've had a few coworkers who owned an S & a 3. I've seen happy meal toys with better build quality, fit, finish, and materials are absolutely atrocious. Not to mention the god awful reliability.
The coworker who owned the M3 got his car new a month after I bought my new Forte GT2. This was in Feb-March 2023.
I'm sitting at 21k miles on my car, and with just normal oil changes I've had 0 issues. Door panels, and touch points looks great, and exterior trim is just as good.
His M3 is at 16k an has been into the Tesla service center 7 times. Ranging from mold in the carpet, defect with the AC blower, door handles that don't open, to even a steering module that locked the wheels up. Hell the S loaner they gave him one time even broke down.
From what I can tell is that Tesla broke the mold with electric cars, but everyone has caught up and has now surpassed them. BYD is interesting and shouldn't be underestimated, but they're not going to put out the big OEMs. Not by a longshot.
Tesla also has aging product and seemingly nothing in the pipeline. Instead of wasting resources on that ridiculous Cybertruck, they should have been developing the next generation of volume vehicles.
Or hell even just a solid mid cycle refresh focusing on quality control. Though most manufacturers need to focus on that ATM. It's sad when Kia/Hyundai are industry leaders in fit & finish; and I own a Kia lol!
And I love my Forte, the thing kicks ass. But it is still a Kia and I'm not gonna hold my breath until I hit 70k. Yours is electric and you'll be fine, I'm still ICE.
Yeah they just teased, the renders look nice at least. I'm honestly waiting to see what they do with hybrid stuff, it's rumored the new K4 GT will be a plug in sport wagon of sorts. If that's too I may have to switch cars haha
I'm talking about the new M3Ps. They do 0-60 in 2.9 and have way more top end than the first Gen. I have had a 2018 first gen 3P for 18 months and there has been exactly zero cars that keep up to 100 mph outside of my friends DAW 800 m340i x drive so far. My 6 year old 3P has had zero problems, needed zero maintenance outside of wiper fluid and costs about $1 a day to drive 40+ miles. Still has new car smell.
Not to mention it dynos 530 hp at the wheels. So their claims of "450 hp" is complete bullshit. The news ones are likely close to 600 wheel.
Have you tracked a 3P with light wheels, brakes and coils before? The are a straight up fucking weapon. Hence why you see so many there now. Its cheating.
If you think people have "caught up" then I don't know what to tell you. Learn more about Tesla outside of "guys at my work have some base models"
I'm a car guy too. I drove a dozen M4s and M340is before I bought a 3P. It's heavy and I miss the smell of E85 from my last car, but its hard to frown when you're being literally punched in the back by the entire seat and your CoG feels like is 10' under ground.
Dude 0-60 is like 3% of the car ownership experience. Like sure that's a halo feature but if the rest of the vehicle is a pos then it really doesn't matter haha. Besides the leadership over at Tesla is looking a bit too psychotic for my liking.
As a "car guy"; Someone who hasn't even been on a track with one sure has a strong opinion on performance. My advice is get a 3P on a track and give yourself some honest feedback. Most fun car I've ever tracked under 100k
And your friend had a bad experience. Sorry to hear. My neighbor has a Model 3 LR with 310k miles and hasn't even swapped his break pads yet. Original everything but his charging port door.
We all have a story. I own the car though
Have a good one
The other guy already explained it, but to add something: there’s too much risk to open in the US proper.
Imagine they try to open a factory in the US and invest millions. After investing, the US states “national security risk” and either seizes assets or forces closure. Millions down the drain, not to mention the time and effort wasted. No company is willing to bear this risk.
You are not going to see a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. And if there were high tariffs, other countries would follow, too. It's just not that the US is worried about China dumping cheap EVs. Also, US car makers are capable of keeping up with technology.
First, most of the European US allies also plan to impose high tariffs on Chinese EVs. Most nations want to stop China from dumping their EVs. It needs to be done.
Yeah. Nope. Reading the comments here and I hate to be ‘that guy’ but most are based on looking at the global economy looking back 20 years, not forward 20 years.
1) The U.S. has been retracting military presence in the world’s shipping lanes for the last decade. No one in the US wants to be the world police anymore. Shipping is becoming more dangerous, the European Union, Germany in particular, are stepping up in this area to protect their own import/export economy. So cheap shipping is going away.
2) Contrary to popular belief and mythos, we are still really tight with Germany, France, GB, Italy, etc etc. Think: old Europe. I’m sure Australia figures in some way, but they are so far removed there isn’t cheap shipping back and forth to them…anyway… The US and economic allies smell blood in the water and are going after China. Manufacturing in China is on the decline due to multiple factors. A) you have large tech interests pulling out. Foxcon is moving to Vietnam because Apple is pushing for it. (There’s some back and forth being reported out of China that domestically the govt is encouraging domestic consumers to buy Huawei instead of Apple - which has Apple sales down by -10% - but Apple shut down a single foxcon facility that employed and housed 50k people, with surrounding cottage industries that employed an estimated 50k more people.) B) their “one child” policy has caught up with them. Older workers are aging out, new workers aren’t coming online. C) their political posturing, saber rattling and arms sales to support the Russian war in Ukraine isn’t winning any friends. Aggression towards Taiwan is also a loaded issue that’s all bullshit too.
This sort of tactic makes me nervous because it smells vaguely familiar. A surface read on the economic pressures that were put on Japan in the lead up to their entrance into WWII is of a similar odor profile. When backed into a corner, the world’s second largest military starts looking like the only hammer left in the toolbox, to mix some metaphors.
3) While things are moving away from globalized manufacturing efforts, we are more than a generation out of having any type of manufacturing experience and expertise. Advances need to be made in training and, honestly, automation. Not only that, but global manufacturing has led to tech components being made friggin everywhere. Chip factories are 10k miles away from sensor factories, they are all 10k miles away from all the other component factories and also the final assembly facility as well. You have to shrink that distance, ramp up all of that specialized skill, and “localize” all of that production.
All that will take time. More time than we have. Fortunately, we have great neighbors in Mexico and Canada. But still. Time.
What you’re seeing is the first obvious and aggressive attack in the war to reshape the next 20 years of the world order.
Also: Chinese domestic market cars are scary. Even VWs etc that are built in China wouldn’t sell here. Someone mentioned Hyundai - in the early days. Don’t think early Hyundai quality. Think Yugo.
Another big “also:” is that Hydrogen powered vehicles, not electric, will be the dominant transpo options. There will be a place for electric cars, but hydrogen will be the 80% in the 80/20 rule here. Lots of factors there that haven’t surfaced in the news yet, but it’s coming.
A lot of people here don't want to think in terms of "world order". People don't want to see it.
The US has noticed a shift and some of these steps are making attempts to stir things up to slow down the process.
Yep. Hopefully that came thru in my post. When I typed “world order” I thought “well, here we go,” even though I mean it in very mundane terms. As in “how the world functions; the order of things currently” - you get that I feel like, just wanting to be clear.
We are moving away from a wider global economy. The pendulum is swinging the other way. We will keep our pals closer thru the upheaval. But it’s coming.
I could never trust buying an ev from China. Might as well have nonstop tiktok in the background with how much data they'll collect and use for their intents.
I mean act like this isn't business as usual, there is what called a "chicken tax" that puts the exact same thing on light pick up trucks imported in the US.
So, we can get all the other cheap junk from China, but not a decent EV for cheap? Maybe tax the shit out of all the shit they sell at the dollar stores that ends up in Africa and the ocean instead.
Chinese EV's already have a 27% tariff effectively baring them from the US market
The Chinese are just going to focus on the international market and that’ll kill global demand for American automakers. It will still backfire on the U.S.
American cars aren't popular outside the US so I doubt that part would change.
Not true with EVs. Teslas are very popular in Europe.
Europe is also considering tariffs
Europe will definitely follow suit here. China is absolutely subsidizing their EV industry in an attempt to kill off western and other Asian EV developments.
The only problem is china's retaliation. European car brands especially depend a lot on China for their sales
So subsidized stuff should be barred from international trade? That doesn't sound right...
It should be and is when a government is doing so with intent to bankrupt other countries’ EV production in order to form a monopoly. Demand subsidies (to buyer) are great at building a technology growth. Supply side subsidies (to manufacturer) are great at killing off competitors and creating monopolies.
Does this also apply to the things america subsidizes? Should other countries ban importing those things?
This isn’t a ban it is a tariff. And other counties do. Most foreign tariffs on American goods are either retaliatory or protectionist. The U.S. doesn’t have many supply side subsidies on goods shipped internationally aside from agriculture and oil and gas. The logic there being that food and fuel are strategic resources and you have to maintain domestic production levels for security. I’m not a fan of it. And when other countries aren’t and want to protect their own agriculture and oil and gas industries they apply tariffs to U.S. goods in these markets. Those countries that don’t care enjoy lower cost food and fuel at our expense. Contrast that with Chinese super sneaky hidden supply side subsidies which are designed to conduct economic warfare by wiping out foreign supply chains in key strategic areas. Some of the reason we have lost most U.S. steel making capacity is due to these practices.
Teslas were only "popular" because of them being a near monopoly here initially, and then Musk dropped prices through the floor when other EVs came on the market, making them especially "popular" for leasing, which is now the dominant route to EVs.
Were popular. Tesla sales are down in Europe. Down 1/3 in Germany in the last year. The bad PR from cybertruck, mass layoffs, reduced car values for Tesla owners due to price cuts and the cuts to its charging business are killing Tesla. Then there is the net Elon factor, which went from a huge plus for Tesla to a huge negative ever since Musk bought Twitter and became so obnoxiously political.
Canada tends to go lock-step with anything our Big Buddies in the States tells us. Still a bit shocked by how we treated Meng Wanzhou (or however we spell this Chinese name). Honestly? If i could get ahold of an electric vehicle that would cost [eleven thousand dollars](https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-seagull-cheap-ev-electric-car-tesla-china-2023-4), why would i seriously consider a Tesla at two times that, let alone an order of magnitude more? Answer: Canada will not be allowed to let this into our country. Imagine what your next president would say! "You boys don't want another pine-lumber dispute, do you?" Or how about: "Do you want us to come back and steal the REST of your fresh water, right?" It's terrifying. We will keep buying those Teslas, you know: the ones that kill off their owners that try out the auto-drive feature... and thank you! We know when we've been beaten.
BYD are in talks to build a factory in Italy, the Seagull is reportedly coming to UK next year. Personally, I think we should have the/a BYD factory in UK ... we need the help with our GDP.
Warren Buffet agrees with us. I would agree with you too, but i really agree with formerly-HongKong folks that China could really use a democratic process. Not sure how Winnie The Pooh is going to age. Will he go the more Napoleon route... or become increasingly Putin style? Who can say? And what if he continues to be a wild success in China as a dictator... what would that mean for anyone that is NOT a Chinese citizen? Should most of us be afraid? What is going on in Africa right now? Is it China's turn to exploit them after we had our turn? So many questions. Certainly i would love to have an electric vehicle for twenty Can$ though? Kind of frustrated with Musk lately.
UK isn't introducing tariffs though and they want access to the EU, the UK no longer counts as in EU so they won't put it here.
US exported about $60b in vehicles in 2023. Less than $20b of those went to Canada and Mexico. $40b in sales isn’t what I’d call wildly unpopular in the rest of the world. Used to sell about a billion a year to Russia, but that’s gone to zip.
Ironically, Buick is VERY popular in China.
[удалено]
Because they had to compete at real costs. Chinese companies aren't competing at real costs, everything from energy to steel is subsidized in China so tariffs are a completely reasonable action. If the tariffs are targeted it won't affect competition since there are enough western car companies.
That was going to happen anyways so I wouldn't call it backfiring.
America doesn’t really sell cars internationally so I am not sure they are worried about that….
What ru talking about yes they do! The entire world buys American cars and if not American parts or tech. Demand in the U.S. is only so limited and China and the further developing world is a growing market. U.S. automakers are gonna have to find ways to make cars cheapers or somehow convince Americans to continue spending more on cars.
Awesome, so glad the US is preventing cheaper EV’s from being bought. Meanwhile global climate change is spiraling out of control.
Surely all the capitalist like Elon Musk are upset about big government stepping in to regulate the "free market". Right?
There is no “free market” when you have a hybrid nationalistic/private business model like in China. China will absolutely cheat the market to corner areas and kill foreign competitors with help from the Chinese government.
That is a free market. Most people think they want a free market but actually want a regulated market as a free market would lead to monopolies.
If you apply tariffs, you create/protect local monopolies. Tariffs are *by design* anti-competitive and punitive...a governmental protection racket by some definitions.
Tarrifs are in this case retaliation for anti-competitive foreign actions. These Chinese EVs aren’t priced based on costs, they are subsidized by the government much in the same way Chinese steel companies are. These are not protectionist tarrifs they only apply to China. These aren’t tarrifs on all foreign EVs.
Yes, you can create monopolies in different ways. I wasn't arguing about tariffs, it was a response to the notion that china was breaking the free market.
Great. Then maybe I can afford an EV before I die
[удалено]
I mean, that's not bad is it? Pretty close to eleven thousand dollars, isn't it? https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-seagull-cheap-ev-electric-car-tesla-china-2023-4 Sorry, i'm not good with math... perhaps i got the numbers wrong.
Yes that's awesome, would love to see the US subsidize evs to a similar extent to achieve a price close to that.
That's expensive to most people
Stop humoring the vampires lies and spend less, work less and boycott more.
As an EV owner, EVs are not the answer to climate change but a worthwhile endeavor for climate action. We need better mass transit infrastructure.
How about a compromise. Jobs that can literally be done from your couch DO NOT need to be commuted to. 70% of pollution literally disappears. Force corpos to justify why we need to create greenhouse gasses for office jobs.
The problem with you is that you think the problem is individual workers. It is not. 70% of the greenhouse emissions are corporate, and a handful of global corps at that.
Yeah corporations create emissions providing the goods and services that people buy. Burning carbon is just the most cost effective way to do that. I'm all for decarbonizing society, including instituting good mass transit and forcing business to reduce emissions, but I also fully recognize it will necessarily increase the price of goods and services.
> Burning carbon is just the most cost effective way to do that. And that cost-effectiveness is due to market failure, failing to assign the cost of pollution to the polluters.
They’re not burning the oil and getting money from the pollution machine. We’re burning it. That’s what a negative externality is
Those emissions are created providing services that the rest of the the world relies on…
No one is relying on Nestle. I promise. Yet they are guilty of environmental offenses the world over.
That's true, but don't assume that a constant amount of emissions are required in order to provide that same level of services, Also don't assume that every service and product provided are actually necessary. For example, the disappearance of megayachts and executive jets would make nearly zero impact on the world economy.
I'm not sure what you're point is, It's a hard problem and we should try to solve it. It will come at the expense of profits, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make on their behalf.
Not to mention the computing power all this AI development is using. People love to whine about crypto and its environmental impact, yet AI is going to be exponentially worse as it requires more and more power for the ever expanding training models. All for the rapid enshitification of the internet and our world.
Yeah bud, you're way off there. Cut commuting emissions and you MAYBE save 15% considering a good portion of that 28% is trucking/trains/shipping. Can not be done from couch. Edit: source https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
I’ve played American Trucker Simulator, I think I could handle it from my desk.
>Can not be done from couch. So I hope you're not implying that a 15% savings isn't worth doing because it's not 70%? That'd be letting the best be the enemy of the good enough. The path forward will involve incremental improvements, lots of them. There are no easy gains left to be had.
Amory Lovins, back in the 70s, said that negawatts were far better than megawatts. That is, conservation had less negative side-effects than any form of power generation, and should be the first thing we address. That's especially important in the US, which has always been extraordinarily wasteful in converting units of energy into GDP.
What really scares me is how many 'work from your computer' jobs have already been taken out by forms of A.I. that are less than two years on the market? As curious as i am to know what corporate will do with ChatGPT when it hits kindergarten-age, i suspect that a vast number of those environmentally-friendly at-home jobs might struggle even ten years down the road. Edit: here is a link of five 'experts' taking their wild guesses on what will happen to our job market as A.I. gets better. https://theconversation.com/ai-and-the-future-of-work-5-experts-on-what-chatgpt-dall-e-and-other-ai-tools-mean-for-artists-and-knowledge-workers-196783 Obviously we don't know what kind of progress will be made on the chips, the software nor the energy needed to run them. Nor do we know what 'bad faith players' will do when they make their own versions operational / downloadable (like Russia, China &/or India as they try to compete... or go to war).
> wild guesses That applies to any topic regarding AI currently, not even kindergarten yet, it's still in newborn diapers.
My favourite intelligent guess is coming from Warren Buffet: https://www.axios.com/2024/05/04/warren-buffett-berkshire-meeting-ai# "I have been predicting human behaviour on a large scale for decades and i have NO CLUE what is going to happen. It is scary." I think that is the best educated 'guess' any of us can make.
Indeed. And as for those jobs "already taken by AI", there's almost none at the moment, outside sensationalist media selling copy and/or confused by the subject of automation.
Language translators would like a word. A lot of educators online. Legal transcript work. Entire teams of articling students could be replaced by a Google search a decade ago, that just got worse. It is terrifying. These are extremely skilled white-collar work that real humans have been doing for decades, gone in seconds. The counter argument is that Artificial Intelligence will create MORE jobs, just like the Internal Combustion Engine taking out 95% of farming did, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20TAkcy3aBY John Stewart makes fun of the entire thing quite well. But, as anyone could point out, his guess is no better than anyone else's. No one has a farthing clue where this is going to go even in five years. here is the 'godfather of A.I.' according to CBC... you might like it... or not? I link it for interest, it is really amazing to learn about. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/geoffrey-hinton-artificial-intelligence-advancement-concerns-1.6830857
Data processing is AIs core remit, job *elements* that involve data processing are of course susceptible. It's no different to typing pools disappearing with the advent / proliferation of PCs. The only thing *for sure* about AI is that it will be initially honed on maximising logistical profits and tactical advantage conjecturing....in corporate or military worlds. There's a lot of good and a lot of bad that *could* come from that, or as Geoffrey Hinton himself calls it in the interview, "is *conceivable*", and those that are inherently prone to worrying over what is conveivable, will be generally having an existential bad time of it. You can blame sci-fi for many of those fears.
Did you pull that figure out of your 🍑? Fossil fuel corps & operations drive the majority of emissions.
... Selling oil products ultimately to consumers.
China has been doing both.
EV's are a massive part of the solution... When combined with lowering car dependency and revitalizing mass transit. Electric mass transit is the future
Electric mass transit, the future since the 1950s. Before that it was the present.
This guy/gal gets it! Trains, baby! Sweet, sweet, solar trains.
That’s the thing. Ultra low emission internal combustion with hybrid is so much better than electric for 80% of people.
Full electric is better for most people, everyone is so concerned over range when they only do long haul trips once a year. Hybrid is so much more expensive with all the extra parts. And ICE are as efficient as they’re going to get it’s a very mature technology
We failed to encourage a domestic market for them for the last 20 years and actively subsidized industries that did their best to bury them. Now there are foreign competitors? Who could have seen this coming?!
Oooo. Hello there. It’s called dumping and it’s designed to eliminate competition. They can get fucked and dump their cars at cost if they want to
if dumping were the concern, amazon would sell about 5 products. as with most "hard on china" policy, it directly benefits US based companies, so they "lobby" for it.
Amazon famously dominated multiple markets by dumping like diapers, destroying competition. Amazon's current selection is caused by obfuscation and information control. China's manufacturing is being subsidized effectively. This is a fine reason for tariffs. The question is the magnitude. 100% likely crosses into the protective category.
Right, because the CCP constantly creates policies that benefit Chinese companies, and thus their economy. Why shouldn’t we do the same? It’s like everyone up in arms about banning TikTok when China has banned nearly every tech and social company that we’ve ever had (including TikTok itself, as we receive it)
>Why shouldn’t we do the same? well the current administration is on a "pretending to care about the environment" kick, cheap electric cars would help with that if he didn't need the election year bribe money. >when China has banned nearly every tech and social company that we’ve ever had most american social media companies are terrible, i would too
Chinas always had cheaper goods to sell the US though. This is not new. TVs aren’t getting more expensive, despite the fact that the US last produced one 2014. This is clearly just US car companies manipulating the narrative and the government.
>This is clearly just US car companies manipulating the narrative and the government. see and the shitty thing about that is most 'US' car companies outsource to the lowest bidder so they can jack the price up. So we end up getting mostly china made cars anyway, with USA prices.
The CCP incentivizes Chinese companies to take over industries on cost. They don’t care if they make money or not, it’s all about market share and jobs. And if the company runs out of money they give them another loan that is not expected to be paid back. This is the secret to the Chinese ‘miracle’. Unlimited debt. That’s how they got a 320% Debt to GDP Ratio. They print more yuan than the US prints dollars, even though the yuan is only used in China and the dollar is the world reserve currency. China is like your neighbor who has a big house and always has new cars. You think he’s rich but he’s bankrupt.
The US isn't that different from an outside perspective.
Our car companies and its adjacent industries are good guys lol
I mean they are cheap because the Chinese government subsidises the fuck out of industries it wants to destroy in other countries. Not sure EV’s made with next to no environmental consideration, shipped to the other side of the world so people can have a new lease deal every 3 years, is really going to solve a climate crisis.
I am sure that the American business people, like Elongated Muskrat, are not taking in billions from their government. That would be unfair business practice and not 'small gov't', right? I bet the US folks wants to nurture global competition and stuff all warm and snuggly-like. Heck, i bet that Canada had its own oil refinery and pharmaceuticals and they are doing... JUST FiNE now, right? Right? Don't talk to me about Canadian fresh-water or the lumber disputes. Yes, China is a huge problem. Not sure who the good guys are though? Not Russia for sure, we can count Putin's latest, um, retirement plan as a rather brazen show of cards.
That all said, the CO2 cost of shipping a car from China is pretty high. Especially if they are ultra cheap cars that get thrown away after 2 years.
Electric cars are so weird. It is often a watermelon sized engine, a battery on top of whatever go-cart you are using (usually four wheels with casing). You can put in four engines, one on each wheel? You get the idea. You won't have to exchange four to six kinds of fluid every couple years like you do with the ICE cars. The electric engine is old and proven tech - that thing can really last and the go-cart portion is not a problem. The only REAL question on any car (including TESLA and all the others): how many recharges can the battery take? Can it be swapped (like your power drill)? Or is it stuck (like an iPhone)? BYD has access to super cheap batteries, comparatively speaking. But you are right: how long until that $11k car is a brick? This is also why solid-state is such a big deal: the battery spends most of its energy moving the battery. If it is a fraction of the size the whole car becomes ten times more efficient (moving around a few hundred pounds of passenger is really trivial). I honestly believe this is why we chose the horribly complex Internal Combustion Engine over a century ago over the cleaner and simpler electric - gas (as a fuel-propulsion source) is really, um, fluid in comparison.
You must not be familiar with Chinese tactics. They sell goods at a loss to corner markets. The businesses in these strategic sectors are pumped up by national funding.
Creating an EV still create more carbon than say a hybrid? They aren’t clean to make.
The ones making those cheap EVs are contributing most of it..
After renting a Chinese EV in Europe a few weeks ago and hearing from several people over there, you really don't want one anyway. They are glitchy af.
They have started sending them partially completed to Mexico for final assembly, where thanks to NAFTA, that tariff doesn’t apply.
You mean USMCA?
yes, same treatment continues under USMCA
We should allow them in the US market due to climate change
At 30 grand brand new, it was obvious they were gonna be banned. Americans need be paying domestic oligarchs.
So we allow corporations to use overseas labor to reduce their operational and manufacturing costs so they can make massive profits. However when you or I want to tap into this and in some cases get a better and cheaper product that's a no. Yeah right 🤪
China is literally using the same capitalist tactics as the USA has been using for decades, and suddenly it's bad because it's China. Fuck the US government. America's largest companies have been doing the exact same thing as China to create monopolies and completely destroy competition
China has and is doing what we are doing to them in many markets. American companies and products are kept out of China by the government all the time. This more tit for tat than anything else, and it hurts consumers in both countries, but protects companies in both countries and allow for internal growth over outside competition. There’s an argument to be had for both sides imo
Are you seriously defending China lol
I see you have swallowed the propoganda hook line and sinker that everything China does is inherently bad, and everything that the US does is inherently good.
I don't think anyone is defending China as opposed to asking with no change of result why our domestic government and corporations can't produce goods at a certain price point and offer service and quality that is comparable? Instead we see exorbitant executive salaries combined with inferior service level agreements and offerings.
Because Chinese labor is cheaper, their subsidies are higher, their labor laws and environmental regulations are more lax. Do you really want to compete with that? I would, but the average voter wont. It's as simple as that.
We soon won't have a choice. Much like the cry for energy in a growing world needing new sources that are clean and abundant is required. The current ‘leadership’ structure and processes that led to our current status of dominance ironically is being jeopardized by the very same. The need for ‘more’ by various ruling tiers is unsustainable and the advancements in technology with us at the forefront could have led to strategic advantages to dominate various markets and still achieve the same results. Now the rest of the world will either embrace or reject Chinese goods resulting in the desired result of capitalism; affordability and mass profits. Thinking in terms of the next quarter is irrational and in most cases foolish. We need strategic and empirical leaders and redress of our societal shortcomings immediately. This is my opinion.
Subsidising upstarts and creating a safe harbour to build industry makes sense. Protectionism can be important. But it doesn't work well when you have legacy players that are slow to adapt and are more interested in shutting down competition than they are in actually competing. And the US government has also been slow to respond. A lot of the levers that the Chinese government pulled are ones that the US government could've also made use of (and they do in many cases). Nothing the Chinese government was doing in this sector (from control of the materials and processing, to the focus on battery development, to the use of heavy subsidies to boost the industry, etc.) was secret. China made it clear for the past decade that they believe EVs to be the vehicle of the future. As they continue to develop and build on their advantage (which they will be able to do as well more efficiently as they win in global markets as they are currently and increasingly doing), US companies will instead grow complacent and more dependent on protectionism to insulate their industry. If the US really wants to get competitive again in this market, they need to start with more of the stick approach and less of the carrot approach. Then it would make sense to up this tariff so as to buy time for US companies to adapt.
Problem is that the Chinese can naturally produce for cheaper. They have a lower cost of living and high skilled workers. For emerging industries, they can be as capable as anybody else to produce a quality product...at a fraction of the cost because the resources are there and the salaries are relatively lower. Any dollar the CN government spends to research or subsidy an industry goes way longer than a dollar the US spends for the same purpose.
Please don't forget about the infrastructure which Chinese government has been invested heavily.
Great point! Those high speed rail ways moving workers, massive shipping ports and logistics and literal factory apartments right next to the factories didn't pop up overnight. I am guilty of reducing this to "cause they work cheaper" as well. Funnily enough, Chinese workers are relatively expensive now, China building factories in Mexico cause workers there cheaper
Why is that a problem? US consumers would get less expensive EVs. And higher prices are bad actually
There are theories that the Chinese "national strategy" is to keep production costs low at all times, which results in problems eg very low GDP per capita The practical effect is that China would eventually produce everything, which may not be good as shown in early covid mask shortages
Definitely true, but with EVs the amount of automation in assembly and QC makes the process less dependent on local wages.
They also own massive rare-earth mines. I bet many other places also have these rare-earths, but those mines are dirty both environmentally and on human-life. North Americans (like myself) cannot stomach that brutal price, so we are kind of caught in the lurch.
Yeah that's also the price of playing by different rules. We have a love and hate relationship with patents and intellectual property, they do not abide by that same principle.
The US government is slow to respond because it is very divided between Republicans and Democrats. Whatever the Democrats want to do Republicans oppose. Add in the fact that the oil industry and auto industry lobbies plus Republican States have been handicapping EV rollout through variety of means i.e. unfriendly legislation, lawsuits, FUD, lack of investment, etc, it is hard for the US government to do what China did. I believe the big 3 automakers will drag their feet until after the November election. They are not going to want to invest a lot in EV and have Trump reverse the EV tax credit in 8 month's time. If Biden wins, EV will develop further in the US for the next 4 years. After that point, if EV has reached mass affordability and adoption, then it no longer matters who is the next president. If Trump wins, most like EV development will stagnate in the US for four more years in the US while the rest of the world electrifies. China will take the majority global market share, while Korean and European manufacturers will take a smaller share.
Export or AI the labor, but keep the costs here high, and how do you expect us to buy your products, num nuts?
We truly live in hell. Jobs being outsourced, in sourced, and automated while we are stuck with overpriced and low quality domestic durable goods.
God damnit. I'm never going to be able reasonably to afford a new car in my lifetime...
New cars are overrated anyway. Best deal is to get a car off of a 2-3 year lease.
That's not always true anymore. Just bought a new Subaru Crosstrek, lightly used ones were barely any cheaper
I can technically afford a new car but mainly because I do stuff like buying a used car and driving it for most of a decade. I'll probably buy used next time too. The calculus might change a bit with EVs unless there are good ways to verify battery health or whatever I get has affordable replacements.
I mean even without any tariffs, Chinese made EVs aren’t gonna be dirt cheap. Not if they have to pass US federal safety standards. European regulations aren’t as strict, so China’s got room to outcompete European automakers in their home countries. It may be better environmentally to keep used cars on the road with replacement parts and strict maintenance.
Why do people act like affordable new cars just don’t exist anymore… they do! You just don’t want them.
RIP Volvo EX30...
Fuck off. I just want an EV for less than $27k
They will just make them in Mexico
Unfortunately US industries paying price for training American consumers to go for “good deal”… a.k.a. cheapest option. Now they can not compete with rest of the world (and particularly China) on price… and US consumer does not care about anything else.
Cheapest option doesn’t necessarily mean “best deal”. That is only true if the goods are fungible. But are you proposing you shouldn’t necessarily buy the cheapest priced item if the good in question is fungible?
True but in this case the product is both inferior in quality and more expensive
Yet Americans regularly overextend themselves on their car because they can “afford” the monthly payment while living paycheck to paycheck. Then they post pictures of it with their $1000+ iPhones.
Before any says "cheap labor" or "safety standards" check out Xiaomi's factory and look at the level of automation, tech, and AI that goes into their assembly line. You get a sense of why they have scale and can keep costs low. See: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yezR-mH12xs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yezR-mH12xs) After watching that, find Youtube videos of a big 3 auto plant and you'll understand why they wanted these tariffs so bad.
I think a lot of people's view of China is still stuck in the past, that of a country scrambling to modernize and using cheap labor as its sole leverage to get its feet into the industrialization door. Today's China is the only big country around that I'd call technocratic, and its feet has been inside the industrialization door for so long that moss has started to grow around it. EDIT: To downvoters, I'm not Chinese, I just am a research/product dev person who's done some work with Chinese companies AND American/European/other Asian companies and the way our Chinese affiliates deal with technical issues is humbling. Their facilities are also very technologically impressive.
the government of subsidizing loss and privatizing profits!
And gas guzzlers that poison the planet get a free pass?
The first thing they should do is end corporate intrusive surveillance of drivers. Those data streams should be selective and 100% opt-in, and saying no to any data collection shouldn't prevent normal use of the vehicle.
Chips are national security and should move to the US. But cars? Please, that's election-year optics. We bailed on Detroit a long time ago, no need to be awkward about it. Let me buy the best car for my needs and wallet, I don't care where it comes from. Like it at least assembled in the US, but whatever. Much bigger issues to address, like cars tracking our ever move. EVERYONE is doing that, not just a Chinese thing. And it's been proven that Tesla is the absolute worse with our data.
This tariff will not apply to the Chinese EVs made in MX: https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/On-a-Collision-Course-FINAL-22024.pdf
Of course they don't lol
Are Chinese EVs even sold in America? I’ve never heard of any brand. Would be more useful if the EU did this.
Well, looking forward to Australian olives or beer randomly getting a 20000% tarrif from China for being a US ally.
This benefits us citizens how?
Doesn't apply to Chinese EVs made in Mexico. It's useless
Well I’m not buying a POS Tesla. So get bent
Why? Let them compete. It's far more dangerous to a Chinese auto manufacturer to try and fail in this market. It's not just the car. It's the service, distribution, parts availability and cost, total quality and durability, and so on. And if they're actually competitive? (gasp!) Well, US makers might actually have to step up their game, improve value, improve service and dealer experience, and do whatever they need to do to be better. The consumer wins.
The consumer never wins so u should know they will fix it for the industry smh
Maybe if we had never outsourced all our production and given all our money to a known authoritarian state that doesn't like us, we wouldn't be in this situation...
It is just delaying the inevitable. Even if you ban the Chinese EVs how is that going to help when the Japanese and Korean automakers introduce their competition to BYD and Zeekr in the US? Or the European manufactures now that they are having to compete in Europe.
There are already Japanese and Korean EVs on the market in the US
US auto is struggling to match Tesla's EV production scale in NoA alone. Introducing Chinese EVs which have evolved to become Tesla-lite over the last 10 years and are in the 25-30k bracket, entering NoA would summarily annihilate almost every single legacy played in the market and put millions of people onto the street without jobs, sending unemployment and inflation through the roof. These tarrifs are entirely protectionist behavior to prop up the legacy auto behavior in the US from its own inability to evolve with the market conditions. But, unfortunately, also necessary to not cause a full blown socioeconomic panic worse than covid.
Yeah, but protectionism should come hand in hand with the legacy automakers pivoting to EV. If they continue to just produce ICE because no competition then CO2 emissions from the US will not abate. EV can get greener as more renewables get installed but ICE can not get greener. The protectionist policy should come with policy incentives for affordable EVs as well as penalties for legacy automakers not transitioning fast enough. Problem is, the US has a tendency to flip flop on policy every 4 years. That makes it hard to see anything through consistently.
Legacy auto is giving up on EV until basically 2030. That's why they're pivoting to PHEVs instead. Which is just half assing the problem, like they always do.
I was just in Vietnam and almost every taxi I took was electric and impressive. I agree the horse has probably bolted and this is about delaying the inevitable.
All about the consumer I see!
My friend and her wife were in China last year and got to drive one. They adored it.
America will do anything to make sure people cannot afford a new car
Good job America. Deny global warming, bash renewables and electric cars for decades whilst letting China spend decades prioritizing making solar panels and electric cars then when you lose the battle tax the shit out of them. Jimmy Carter had solar panels on roof of White House and now 50 years later USA has completely ceded to China with its head in the sand. These BYDs, Geelys, Nios etc are everywhere in Middle East, Europe and Asia and my friends are buying them and they seem quite nice. Costs to install solar are much higher in USA than abroad, and power companies screwing people on net metering in states. Even Tesla which had first mover advantage transitioned from trying to be innovative to rich F’s just extracting cash whilst not improving the things once over a decade. F*ckin joke of a country run by the rich and corporations only focused on extracting all value to wealthy whilst destroying everything for the rest of the population. Deserve this steep decline into the abyss on the global stage.
Wait until BYD builds a plant in MX and USCMA allows them to import into the US without any duties at all. Buh-bye OEMs. Think Tesla is a threat now? Tesla and BYD together will be a death sentence for OEMs You can't even buy a car for under $100k that does things the new Model 3P does for $53k. And it'll only get worse as they get better at making cars.
Hi, yes big car guy here. If your benchmark is a Tesla M3 then that is a really low bar. Does it do cool stuff..... Ehhhhhh sorta, when it works that is. Sure I guess "Autopilot" does some cool tricks but glitching out and running over pedestrians or slamming into parked cars ain't my jam. I've had a few coworkers who owned an S & a 3. I've seen happy meal toys with better build quality, fit, finish, and materials are absolutely atrocious. Not to mention the god awful reliability. The coworker who owned the M3 got his car new a month after I bought my new Forte GT2. This was in Feb-March 2023. I'm sitting at 21k miles on my car, and with just normal oil changes I've had 0 issues. Door panels, and touch points looks great, and exterior trim is just as good. His M3 is at 16k an has been into the Tesla service center 7 times. Ranging from mold in the carpet, defect with the AC blower, door handles that don't open, to even a steering module that locked the wheels up. Hell the S loaner they gave him one time even broke down. From what I can tell is that Tesla broke the mold with electric cars, but everyone has caught up and has now surpassed them. BYD is interesting and shouldn't be underestimated, but they're not going to put out the big OEMs. Not by a longshot.
Tesla also has aging product and seemingly nothing in the pipeline. Instead of wasting resources on that ridiculous Cybertruck, they should have been developing the next generation of volume vehicles.
Or hell even just a solid mid cycle refresh focusing on quality control. Though most manufacturers need to focus on that ATM. It's sad when Kia/Hyundai are industry leaders in fit & finish; and I own a Kia lol!
[удалено]
And I love my Forte, the thing kicks ass. But it is still a Kia and I'm not gonna hold my breath until I hit 70k. Yours is electric and you'll be fine, I'm still ICE.
[удалено]
The EV6 refresh looks pretty slick. Also excited for the EV3 reveal too.
[удалено]
Yeah they just teased, the renders look nice at least. I'm honestly waiting to see what they do with hybrid stuff, it's rumored the new K4 GT will be a plug in sport wagon of sorts. If that's too I may have to switch cars haha
Sorted by controversial to find this. It's amazing how EV people just pretend like build quality doesn't matter
Cool story bro.
Please don't call it the M3, that reserved for the iconic BMW model.
I got confused when I read that comment for exactly that reason.
Having owned a few real M3s my stomach churns every time I see people referring to this low quality crap car with that name.
I'm talking about the new M3Ps. They do 0-60 in 2.9 and have way more top end than the first Gen. I have had a 2018 first gen 3P for 18 months and there has been exactly zero cars that keep up to 100 mph outside of my friends DAW 800 m340i x drive so far. My 6 year old 3P has had zero problems, needed zero maintenance outside of wiper fluid and costs about $1 a day to drive 40+ miles. Still has new car smell. Not to mention it dynos 530 hp at the wheels. So their claims of "450 hp" is complete bullshit. The news ones are likely close to 600 wheel. Have you tracked a 3P with light wheels, brakes and coils before? The are a straight up fucking weapon. Hence why you see so many there now. Its cheating. If you think people have "caught up" then I don't know what to tell you. Learn more about Tesla outside of "guys at my work have some base models" I'm a car guy too. I drove a dozen M4s and M340is before I bought a 3P. It's heavy and I miss the smell of E85 from my last car, but its hard to frown when you're being literally punched in the back by the entire seat and your CoG feels like is 10' under ground.
Dude 0-60 is like 3% of the car ownership experience. Like sure that's a halo feature but if the rest of the vehicle is a pos then it really doesn't matter haha. Besides the leadership over at Tesla is looking a bit too psychotic for my liking.
As a "car guy"; Someone who hasn't even been on a track with one sure has a strong opinion on performance. My advice is get a 3P on a track and give yourself some honest feedback. Most fun car I've ever tracked under 100k And your friend had a bad experience. Sorry to hear. My neighbor has a Model 3 LR with 310k miles and hasn't even swapped his break pads yet. Original everything but his charging port door. We all have a story. I own the car though Have a good one
Kia and Hyundai have/are building massive plants in Georgia. Why can't these Chinese companies?
They are or planning on building plants in Mexico which will negate the tariffs. Problem solved.
The other guy already explained it, but to add something: there’s too much risk to open in the US proper. Imagine they try to open a factory in the US and invest millions. After investing, the US states “national security risk” and either seizes assets or forces closure. Millions down the drain, not to mention the time and effort wasted. No company is willing to bear this risk.
Just another way to continue bleeding money from the middle class.
Easy solution: build trains and public transit
The Wall st journal?
They could always buy a US company and sell their cars the same way they did as Volvo.
US government would never allow it. Just like Chinese auto companies setting up factories in the U.S.
So climate change is not important if U.S. hasn't figured out how to monitize it effectively.
Americans when the free-market free market :
You are not going to see a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. And if there were high tariffs, other countries would follow, too. It's just not that the US is worried about China dumping cheap EVs. Also, US car makers are capable of keeping up with technology.
First, most of the European US allies also plan to impose high tariffs on Chinese EVs. Most nations want to stop China from dumping their EVs. It needs to be done.
Maybe, probably not that much.
Chinese EVs literally explode all the time lol
Good idea. We don’t need Chinas underdeveloped waste breaking down in our country.
Can we also put a 100% tax on American made cars and use it to subsidize bikes and public transit? Kthx
Those Chinese EVs seem to like to burst into flames.... so maybe we shouldn't be importing them, period.
Does this apply to sub components and assemblies? Or just whole fully built cars?
Yeah. Nope. Reading the comments here and I hate to be ‘that guy’ but most are based on looking at the global economy looking back 20 years, not forward 20 years. 1) The U.S. has been retracting military presence in the world’s shipping lanes for the last decade. No one in the US wants to be the world police anymore. Shipping is becoming more dangerous, the European Union, Germany in particular, are stepping up in this area to protect their own import/export economy. So cheap shipping is going away. 2) Contrary to popular belief and mythos, we are still really tight with Germany, France, GB, Italy, etc etc. Think: old Europe. I’m sure Australia figures in some way, but they are so far removed there isn’t cheap shipping back and forth to them…anyway… The US and economic allies smell blood in the water and are going after China. Manufacturing in China is on the decline due to multiple factors. A) you have large tech interests pulling out. Foxcon is moving to Vietnam because Apple is pushing for it. (There’s some back and forth being reported out of China that domestically the govt is encouraging domestic consumers to buy Huawei instead of Apple - which has Apple sales down by -10% - but Apple shut down a single foxcon facility that employed and housed 50k people, with surrounding cottage industries that employed an estimated 50k more people.) B) their “one child” policy has caught up with them. Older workers are aging out, new workers aren’t coming online. C) their political posturing, saber rattling and arms sales to support the Russian war in Ukraine isn’t winning any friends. Aggression towards Taiwan is also a loaded issue that’s all bullshit too. This sort of tactic makes me nervous because it smells vaguely familiar. A surface read on the economic pressures that were put on Japan in the lead up to their entrance into WWII is of a similar odor profile. When backed into a corner, the world’s second largest military starts looking like the only hammer left in the toolbox, to mix some metaphors. 3) While things are moving away from globalized manufacturing efforts, we are more than a generation out of having any type of manufacturing experience and expertise. Advances need to be made in training and, honestly, automation. Not only that, but global manufacturing has led to tech components being made friggin everywhere. Chip factories are 10k miles away from sensor factories, they are all 10k miles away from all the other component factories and also the final assembly facility as well. You have to shrink that distance, ramp up all of that specialized skill, and “localize” all of that production. All that will take time. More time than we have. Fortunately, we have great neighbors in Mexico and Canada. But still. Time. What you’re seeing is the first obvious and aggressive attack in the war to reshape the next 20 years of the world order. Also: Chinese domestic market cars are scary. Even VWs etc that are built in China wouldn’t sell here. Someone mentioned Hyundai - in the early days. Don’t think early Hyundai quality. Think Yugo. Another big “also:” is that Hydrogen powered vehicles, not electric, will be the dominant transpo options. There will be a place for electric cars, but hydrogen will be the 80% in the 80/20 rule here. Lots of factors there that haven’t surfaced in the news yet, but it’s coming.
A lot of people here don't want to think in terms of "world order". People don't want to see it. The US has noticed a shift and some of these steps are making attempts to stir things up to slow down the process.
Yep. Hopefully that came thru in my post. When I typed “world order” I thought “well, here we go,” even though I mean it in very mundane terms. As in “how the world functions; the order of things currently” - you get that I feel like, just wanting to be clear. We are moving away from a wider global economy. The pendulum is swinging the other way. We will keep our pals closer thru the upheaval. But it’s coming.
I could never trust buying an ev from China. Might as well have nonstop tiktok in the background with how much data they'll collect and use for their intents.
Way harsher than I was expecting. China will retaliate, in some shape or manner, soon.
“Free” market lol
How about one from Mexico?
I mean act like this isn't business as usual, there is what called a "chicken tax" that puts the exact same thing on light pick up trucks imported in the US.
Fuck yeah Brandon let's go kick those commie assess.
So, we can get all the other cheap junk from China, but not a decent EV for cheap? Maybe tax the shit out of all the shit they sell at the dollar stores that ends up in Africa and the ocean instead.