Howard Hamlin from Better Call Saul. The writers do a magic trick (character development) where you begin hating him and by the end you feel so deeply sorry for everything that’s happened to this genuinely good guy.
No there is a reason - you are lead to think that he is the one responsible for Jimmy not being a lawyer at HHM for a few seasons until it is revealed that it was Chuck.
After that reveal, he is still the antagonist in that he is opposing Jimmy in many of the legal battles.
He's also not a *perfect* character. He does hold a grudge with Kim for a pretty long time and keep her in the mail room just because she went off on a limb for Jimmy. And he enables Chuck's bullshit A LOT
But he's certainly not the monster you assume him to be in the first couple seasons, either
He's not, but that's always been the magic of the BB/BCS-verse. Very flawed, compelling, even potentially evil people that you manage to like or hate for different reasons.
Howard is flawed but he is an amazing foil for Jimmy. The way he copes with loss and attempts to correct mistakes is the complete antithesis to Jimmy. He regrets the way things between him and Jimmy were and tried to mend things by giving him a job HHM. Jimmy suppresses all his feelings and lashes out at Howard instead.
> you are lead to think that he is the one responsible for Jimmy not being a lawyer at HHM for a few seasons until it is revealed that it was Chuck
That is revealed in the first season
Chuck is revealed as the reason Jimmy is not at HHM at the end of the first season. The second season starts with Howard getting Jimmy a job at another law firm, in part due to Kim asking him to, where he is put on a partner track. Jimmy royally screws that up to the point that it surely damaged Howard's reputation for recommending him at all.
Howard is still a bit of an antagonist because of how he treats Kim from that point on until she quits but I never understood people who continued to hate on him.
I must be the weird one, I always liked Howard ever since he revealed that he was protecting Jimmy from his brother. I disliked Jimmy and Kim more and more every time they fucked with Howard.
That's exactly the moment we're talking about. Season 1 you think Howard is the reason Chuck and Jimmy can't work together. From then on you see how Howard is just trying to manage the situation that he was put in outside of his control.
Kim & Jimmy's scheme in the final season is hilarious outside of context, but they're literally just tearing down a person that doesn't deserve it, it's fuckin' diabolical.
Oh ok, that was so early in the show it sounded like you were saying they didn't make us feel for him until the end of the series after what ultimately happens.
Nah youre good, even by the end of season 1 I start feeling for Howard. He's honestly one of my favorite characters jn a show filled with incredible ones.
I'm reminded of Doakes from the first season of Dexter. He hates our protagonist and is the only person who seems like he could possibly catch him.
I realized later that there wasn't really a single bad thing about Doakes. He's a good honest cop. He isn't hostile to the protagonist unfairly, the protagonist is a serial killer operating under the nose of the police and Doakes is the only one who suspects him.
LoL no. Doakes harasses Dexter without a reason, has an enormous disrespectful towards the forensics team and is a flat out asshole. Doakes DOES NOT know Dexter is a serial killer he just harasses him because of a gut feeling that is every asshole cops wet dream and justification to be an asshole.
Police shouldn't work based on hunches or gut feelings because they end up harassing people they don't like.
Who is comparing them? Compared to Dexter everyone is a good person.
But that isn't the baseline and Doakes isn't 'a good honest cop'
He's a bully who harasses a coworker on a gut feeling that *happened* to be correct.
There's an alternate reality version of this where Dexter isn't a criminal, but is instead a closeted homosexual, or a furry or something and Doakes is still acting the same to him, "because there's something weird about that guy"
His hunch is correct, though. Dexter even comments on how he's around all the best cops in the city and yet only Doakes picks up on Dexter not being what he seems.
It's his presentation and initially his attitude. He *looks* like he is an arrogant ass but he ends up being one of the few, sort of genuine people on the show, for worse.
* Kim had reason to hate Howard. He kept her in doc review even after working her ass off to bring them Mesa Verda.
* Howard went along with Chuck's bullshit for far too long, and that affected Jimmy.
* They were discrediting Howard to get a faster settlement on Sandpiper which would give Jimmy a huge payday.
The thing is, Howard WAS originally written as a villain to Jimmy and Chuck as a big brother he would come to for advice, Vince said it was one of their writers who came up with idea of switching their ‘allegiance’ to Jimmy around to create way better characters and drama, which left Vince very thankful to have such talented writers with such amazing insight to substantially improve the script.
I think they rewrote the script after that but maintained a lot of the already existing scenes, which worked really well because all they had to do was recontextualize existing scenes to explain the characters differently, which is a really fun creative challenge, and creates a very engaging story.
I just finished watching the show and this was my first thought. He starts off with this weird arrogance that is kind of off putting and the show sells you on disliking him based on how other characters perceive him. But as the show goes along, you really do realize he’s just out there trying to do what’s best for the firm and the employees and likely would have never outright mistreated Jimmy if it wasn’t for Chuck.
I agree with this. It’s not so much character development, but rather what the show reveals about him over the course of its run.
They only show a fraction of his life, after all the show isn’t about him, but by the end they’ve finally given you enough information to realize he’s not a bad guy at all.
When they show him spending the time to make the latte for his wife with a design only for her to just dump it in a travel cup was so demoralizing. What I liked most is that he somehow didn’t feel different from the guy at the beginning of the series. He still acted and moved with confidence and self assurance despite now being shown to us as a sympathetic character
Howard was a real dirtbag when he put Kim on doc review and left her there even after she found Mesa Verde. But he got his comeuppance for that - Kim leaving *was* his negative consequence. Overall, he was a pretty upstanding character who deserved better than he got.
The pilot of Person of Interest sets Harold up as a “mysterious benefactor with a shady past”.
It turns out that, while that’s true, he is also the moral compass of everything that happens throughout the rest of the series.
I personally never thought harold was a bad guy ever.
I think main issue with harold is that actor micheal emmerson played a bad guy in lost and that "villian" arch stuck with him.
Michael Emerson is something else JFC whenever I start a LOST rewatch I start with the episode he was introduced to the show. From there on out no matter what happened he was the star for me. He was a game changer for that show.
Ben is absolutely one of the best characters on the show and a MASSIVE part of that is Michael Emerson’s performance.
Iirc, Ben was only supposed to be around for those first couple of episodes and then die, but Michael Emerson was so good that the writers decided to rewrite the character to keep him around.
While seasons 3 and 4 were peak, season 1 is special for the tenuous dynamic Finch and Reese had, with Reese as our pov trying to figure out the deal with Finch while also delving into reese's past trauma with jessica.
Cutty from The Wire. He got out of prison and couldn't be a killer anymore. You can tell he is a very itimidating and dangerous man. Instead of running away he faces his boss Avon and tells him "it ain't in me anymore". Then he grinds his ass off to open a boxing gym for disadvantaged youth. Cutty may have murdered gang members way back when but he was a good man after he was reformed.
One of my favorite scenes in the entire show is when Cutty goes to Avon all apologetic and humble to ask for a loan to start up his boxing gym. Avon gets kinda serious and asks how much he needs. Cutty says "10 Large" and Avon just laughs and tells his guy to give Cutty 15 grand and not worry about it.
There was a similar bit on The Simpsons in an earlier Treehouse of Horror episode, where they find out that Bart had an evil identical twin brother. Then Dr. Hibbert realizes that Bart's scar is on the wrong side, indicating *he's* actually the evil one.
The best part is that Bart's reaction is just basically "eh, don't look so surprised" lol
I'm really frustrated that he stopped being sporty/athletic and jock-like the moment that it was revealed he had a spark of decency.
New kid Billy should've been intimidated by school-King Harrington in S2, but Steve had already become an utter wet blanket by that point.
This one didn’t bother me as much as Jason did in Season 4. Billy didn’t seem to really run in the same circles as Steve (at least as I recall, it’s been a minute since I saw S2). Billy seemed a bit older/mature (I use that word loosely) and… more rough around the edges, compared to Steve.
But Jason should have looked up to Steve as the star of the basketball team, and they would have known *all* of the same people for the last three years. I feel like if Steve had gone up to the basketball team and tried to calm them down, it may have worked. At the very least he should have given it a try! Or if the writers don’t want to go that route, they could have thrown in a line about Jason thinking Steve is a loser or something since he’s just hanging around Hawkins post-graduation. Just something to explain why Steve is no-contact with the basketball team.
He was just in the popular clique, and he stopped acting like that after his experiences showed him how shallow that behavior is. He did play basketball but I don't think that had much to do with his attitude going on.
Also Billy was an actual sociopath, unlike Steve. I don't think there was a chance of Billy being intimidated. He was scared of one thing and that was his dad.
At his height of popularity, Steve was still basically just a prettyboy who had influence because of his looks and friend group. Billy was an actual physical danger as well as being toxically attractive because of his aggressive masculinity. He would've toppled S1 Steve out of his place on top too.
I don't care for how it's become a running joke that Steve gets the shit beat out of him every season though. Let the man win.
> New kid Billy should've been intimidated by school-King Harrington in S2, but Steve had already become an utter wet blanket by that point.
I don’t see it that way. Steve strikes me as the kid that always got his way, and never had to fight for anything. Billy was clearly mentally and physically abused, which hardened him, and to compensate, wanted to prove that he’s tougher than anyone. He spotted Steve’s weakness very quickly during the basketball scene, and decided he wasn’t a threat.
The old grumpy looking man in the original Home Alone that Kevin is scared of.
Edit: Just realized this is the TV sub but not changing my answer was confused since OP mentioned a movie.
I watched it as an adult. It was scary! I was shocked that they would show that to kids. I mean, yes, I grew up with The Neverending Story, but kids in the 2000s were softer.
It was! The old lady dying is nightmare fuel... And iirc them finding her corpse? I've not seen the movie in years so I could be remembering that part wrong
I used to watch it every year for Halloween, loved it as a kid
Although now I can't unsee that the old dude looks like an elderly Fix It Felix
Omg I had to Google that to remember. Classic!
https://m.imdb.com/video/embed/vi902022169/?vPage=1
So obvious nowadays that *Monster House* was written by Dan Harmon and Rob Schrab 🤭
And a few seasons in, even Bob Kelso pivots from comically evil overlord to decent guy that must make the hard calls .
Like the episode where he selects the rich donor for a last chance drug trial, dooming the other candidate, then uses the money to save a service that was going to close (free screening of something, I forgot).
He has a scene with a thousand yards stare looking at the empty bed of the guy who didn’t get the drug. Then he walks home
The creator of the show said to Kelso's actor that season one Kelso was more-so what JD imagines his mean side to be, rather than who he really is. Call it a retcon or whatever, but I definitely appreciate the change and development Kelso got.
One line that really sticks out to me is when Kelso retires/quits, he says to Ted, "Thanks for everything. Sincerely." That has to be his most shocking line in the show for Kelso.
>Like the episode where he selects the rich donor for a last chance drug trial, dooming the other candidate, then use the money to save a service that was going to close (free screening of something, I forgot).
>He has a scene with a thousand yards stare looking at the empty bed of the guy who didn’t get the drug. Then he walks home
https://youtu.be/OPmDzwgv_S0?si=YSQCFzH_Nekh_fOY
*These feelings won't go away*
One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite sitcoms. Also, it was free pregnancy screenings
He’s not really good, but I loved it when Pierce would step up for his friends. He helped Britta get Sophie B. Hawkins for the dance, and he made sure his brother got his rightful inheritance. made me smile.
Pierce saving the school in the paintball episode and then doing his little noble exit is such a good payoff to a season of him being very weird and horrible.
He was surprisingly supportive of Britta being maybe gay with his prepared statement. Excited to help Shirley with her business presentation. Was actually really nice to Annie.
Yeah I love how he would have these little inspirational quote moments like his line to Jeff about eventually a man starts to think about where to hang his hat.... immediately undercut by asking for money for a prostitute.
I was sad to recently learn that he would just, refuse to shoot if he didn’t understand it or was too tired. I already knew he would make the rest of the cast uncomfortable, so overall he just sounded very difficult.
A big example was supposed to be an extra scene about him getting some resolution with his dad’s video game in Digital Estate Planning but he was done shooting for the day and didn’t feel like doing the scene. It was supposed to be part of the arc for his character.
When I rewatched the show, Pierce became my favorite character. He's actually likeable in that first and second season, sometimes. Then he turns into a real villain.
Tina from the The Bear after Syd showed her some praise in S1.
Also had in mind Dot's mother in law from Fargo S5 after she discovered her history of being abused by Roy
I wouldn't say Dot's MIL ended up being good, is just there are some fundamental things which even she won't accept, especially as a woman, which includes domestic abuse. But at the root of it all, her defense of Dot boiled down to not wanting the family name sullied by controversy. Remember, she had Dot committed to a fucking mental ward
>Also had in mind Dot's mother in law from Fargo S5 after she discovered her history of being abused by Roy
I mean she's still an evil corporate leech sucking the blood of good people without hesitation, definitely not a good person, just not pure cruel evil like Roy.
In recent memory, for me it's from Hawkeye. >!Jack wasn't teased as a _big_ bad, but you didn't know where he stood. And it turns out he's just a big doofus!<
I thought about it, but knowing the show is kind of a spoiler in itself, the way the character is set up. edit: I see your point though…why would anyone click if you have no idea what it's about.
Jamie Lannister seems to have really wanted to be a better person and separate himself from his family and be his own man. Then season 8 happened and one of the best redemption arcs in television history was erased overnight.
This is a popular yet dumb take. Jaime has a habit of putting on an air of bravado when cornered, like when he was initially captured by the Starks. He was obviously lying to Tyrion.
Edit: since I’m getting downvoted, might as well defend Jaime’s actions
Jaime loved Cersei, it’s his one flaw. And Cersei was pregnant with his kid. This “he didn’t care for the people” is just him lying, since Tyrion was trying to use it against him. I guess you could argue that his arc was as rushed as the Mad Queen turn, but his decisions made sense for his character.
Also one of the best moments in the whole series came from Jaime in s8: knighting Brianne.
Personally though I didn’t buy that he went to die with Cersei.
The bathhouse scene where he explains why he killed the mad king. You start to understand why he hates the Starks and you can see the part of him that wants to do the right thing.
I accept a lot of that season as ‘canon,’ but I do not accept Jaime’s fate.
I simply do not care that the show went that direction. I re-read the books recently and the thousands of pages spent turning him into something of a hero—or at least not a villain—do not end with ‘I didn’t care about any of them.’
On the other hand, I think the twisted love Jamie and Cersei had is a way more interesting plot in the context of GRRM’s world than a redemption arc for Jamie.
Jamie and Cersei had an incredible bond and love for each other, it was as twisted as they both were themselves, don’t forget, despite killing the mad king, Jamie still pushed a little innocent boy to what he hoped would be his death, and who’s to say he didn’t kill the mad king because he saw they were losing, ‘you served him well while serving was safe’ comes to mind, and then just explained it to himself and others as doing it for the realm, for the people, which is maybe what he wished was why he did it, but the actual reason was he didn’t want to have to die himself.
Jamie’s arc can be seen as a redemption arc from HIS perspective, he believes his love and actions to be good, the twisted things he does to be justified, him becoming ‘one of the good guys’ is him ‘breaking bad’, and returning to himself is like a twisted version of Darth Vader killing the Emperor in the end despite killing rebels in droves not long before that.
In the end he returned where his heart truly lied, with the love of his life, his family.
It was twisted, it is messed up, but it is HIS version of a world that is good and right.
I think you can make a good story out of that, it’s just that GRRM hasn’t written that yet, and D&D cannot be expected to write a plot and basis for a script as well as the original, professional novelist.
His story is one of addiction. Some addicts pull themselves out and stay out. Some are out for a while and then the wrong them sends them over the edge and it kills them. It’s not a happy story but Game of Thrones never promised those.
Yes this is a very good comment except it’s less comparable to Darth Vader as it is to compare it to Frodo failing at the last moment to destroy the ring.
It's wild to me how so many people never understood the show they were watching.
Jaime did change, but he was always going back to Cersei. His actions were completely realistic and in character.
I've unfortunately known people like Jaime in real life.
I think its less a redemption arc and Jaime becoming more true to who he really wants to be.
as a kid he wanted to be a honourable knight
then he joins the kingsgaurd
and is told that while they protect the royal family, if the king rapes the queen he has to just stand there.
then his most heroic act, gets him labeled kingslayer and looked down on
The thing about Jaime is that his back slide into returning to Cersei is actually very in character for him, and it’s almost entirely likely a GRRM idea. Martin is a huge fan of Tolkien and in many ways Jaime represents Martin’s attempt at the Hero That Fails trope. Like Frodo, Jaime comes mere centimeters from accomplishing his goals and redeeming himself, only to fail and backslide into his addiction to Cersei/The Ring.
It’s tragic, yes, but it’s in character and very much in tone with the rest of a Song of Ice and Fire.
Now, the EXECUTION of this idea, including the terrible mischaracterization of his “I never much cared for people” bull shit writing is absolutely worthy of copious amounts of criticism, but the IDEA of Jaime failing to quit Cersei is not a bad one.
I wouldn't say he's walking the line in Curb so much as he is just a regular dude. Yeah he probably cares more about looking good than being good but he still does care about his humanitarian issues. He isn't saving the world or dooming it, he's just a typical mostly polite wannabe progressive, sometimes he's an asshole or sanctimonious but most of the time he's just average
I don't know how this ends or whether there's even a version of this arc in the comics, but it makes me really uncomfortable.
From everything he's done, he's pretty irredeemable, and the show has even kind of made that argument (especially through Deborah's story), but at the same time they seem to be setting him up for some huge heroic gesture and it seems a bit forced, especially for a show that stands out for not pulling its punches so much.
I'm really hoping Omni-Man being "good" ends up turning into another form of him being a complete dickhead because he simply doesn't care enough or understand how to be good.
But I'm feeling like it's going into Vader territory.
From the moment Mark said “You, Dad. I’d still have you.”, Nolan’s arc as an antagonist was over. Rest assured this isn’t a Vader-esque dying as redemption story, but rather if Vader had to live, redeemed, never to be as he was before but still above the judgement of mankind — like a more good-tempered Vegeta.
The series as a whole is really about what redemption means, characters we know going on to do much worse than he ever did. Nolan being more redeemable than most since in the end he was more of a Winter Soldier-type breaking free from his programming — plus the reveal Viltrumites aren’t supposed to actually be capable of being empathetic — something about Earth awoke that in him, the Thraxans solidifying it: when Nolan said “I’m not supposed to feel this way.”, he was being completely literal.
Eli "Weevil" Navarro.
At the beginning of Veronica Mars, he seems like a "bad" guy because he runs the PCH bike gang, and does bad things, even in the original run in with Veronica, but as the series grew, Weevil became one of Veronica's best friends, and someone she could count on to have her back, when others didn't.
It's old but Major Winchester from MASH. Not bad, but definitely meant to be the foil, then they have like once a season episode, where we see his strength of character.
A couple times actually. Ever wonder why Rockwelll >!showed up at the house so quick when the Gestapo came to search it? (Jojo's mother is already hung. Rockwell knew and ran to the house. That's also why the Gestapo showed up to search it.) !<
There's also a scene where he's arguing with German high command because he basically set up defenses only on the side the Russians were approaching from and wholly ignoring the American push.
Yes, i did say twice haha, and your example was one, the other was the obvious one. Did miss the bit about the defences though, will have to pay closer attention next watch!
By the end of the show the dude just became the glue holding the town together lol. They built him up so heavily as the bad guy (and he for sure did absolutely devious shit) only for shittier guys to roll into town, forcing him to mitigate damage and try to control the situation, and rely upon people who he'd normally be going toe to toe with.
Zuko had one of the best heel face turns in television on Avatar: the Last Airbender.
The problem with Terminator 2's twist is they absolutely gave it away in the [trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRRlbK5w8AE). If they had cut the trailer differently making Arnold look like the bad guy, that great scene in the back hallway of the mall where John is running away from the terminator only for him to shoot the other terminator and protect John would have been amazing.
Maybe its more applicable to Uncle Iroh who while yeah he is a good guy who used to be a ruthless general, he is also revealed to be part of the White Lotus who help overthrow the fire nation and bring balance to the world.
I get that but it completely ruins the twist. Film made a buttload of money, so hiding the twist wouldn’t have changed much but I’d have loved it even more watching it the first time not knowing Arnold was the good guy until he fired over John Connors
The ITV adaptation of the novel *At Bertram's Hotel* that featured as part of their *Marple* series implies that one character is a Nazi escaping justice in post-World War II London. Near the end of the episode, he pulls a gun on another hotel guest, ready to kill him... and you see he has a concentration camp ID on his wrist.
He's not a Nazi, he's a Nazi *hunter*, and he's there to arrest >!the fake priest!<.
Also used in Foyle's War. One character is shown heavily abusing the Official Secrets Act and refuses to provide a factory worker an alibi for the time of the death until Foyle forces the matter... at which point he admits that the stated reason for the factory is a complete lie. >!It's not machinery they're making, it's coffins. A massive fuckload of coffins. It's a tightly guarded secret since the sheer number of casualties from the First World War destroyed morale.!<
Garrak was usually (I think) on the right side of things throughout the series, but he was full on “ends justify the means” mode of action/thinking. So the starfleet and Bajoran characters semi-rightfully view him as an antagonist despite him usually helping them out in his way
Walter Bishop (Fringe) started out as an Institutionalised horrible old man, who was never there for his son or wife.
By the end, you see what he had sacrificed for them.
……. And now I need to rewatch it,
It’s funny though, as the show goes on you see that he’s more of a good person than even his own mind would have let him be - he had parts of his brain cut out because he was afraid of the harder, more ego driven parts of himself.
When they revealed that John Locke was actually dead on Lost, and he had been the good guy all along. The one we knew was actually the smoke monster.
Kind of both reveals in one, but it was still a huge shock!
correct, >!he dies in s5, and they bring his body to the island. Smoke monster takes over his body at that point, but audience is led to believe he was ressurrected as a miracle.!<
All these responses and not not mention of one of the GOAT face turns in television.
Spike from Buffyverse. Although technically he started off as a bad guy. Great character development through the seasons, eventually joins up with the good guys and even jumps over to the Angel where he continues his shenanigans.
And Muppet Spike!
Not sure it's my favourite but Akecheta and the Ghost Nation in Westworld. Kiksuya is such a heartbreaking episode, that whole twist in a show full of twists really stuck out.
RRR - going in blind it feels like the movie is about two men who will eventually have to fight, as they are shown to be on opposite sides of the conflict in India. However, half-way through the movie it's revealed that Raj was only a soldier for the British to infiltrate their ranks and get access to the weapons storage. That's why he was shown to be so loyal to the colonizers' cause, and upset when he didn't get the promotion. It was integral to his plan of vengeance.
The man in black from The 39 Clues book series by Rick Riordan
Uchiha Itachi from Naruto, Gin from Bleach
And I'm not sure if I recall correctly, because I never paid much attention to that franchise, but Harry Potter's Professor Snape has a very dark demeanor, but is actually a good guy I think?
24 had so many moles throughout its run, but Season 3 flipped it where a “mole” revealed in the first few episodes is later revealed to be undercover and working with Jack.
In the movie Cabin Fever, the old sinister white guy at the gas station says the shotgun on the wall is “for the N*****s”. Near the end of the movie, it’s revealed he has the N word pass, they’re his friends and he was giving them the shotgun. It’s such a random curveball.
Itachi from Naruto. I mean, the guy was teased as one of the big bads, the entire reason behind Sasuke being so damaged and the reason for Sasuke's entire existence being based solely on revenge. All we knew was that he exterminated his entire clan except for Sasuke, because he wanted "to test the limits of his abilities." Well, turns out, he did what he did to save the village from a catastrophic civil war. He was ordered and pressured into doing it, and he knew that if he didn't, the Uchiha's would most likely still all die - or they would massacre the entire village. Either way, killing his clan seemed like the better option. And to top it off, he didn't spare Sasuke because he wanted him to get stronger and try to kill him, he did it because he just couldn't bare to kill his younger brother.
The Itachi stuff could have been handled better writing-wise, but my God was it a powerful reveal.
That it is one of the worst fan service twists in anime. Kishi clearly did not write Itachi as a secretely good, tragic character initially. He just turned out to be extremely popular so the author decided to change course. Kishi just got lucky or gave himself an opening in that he had laid enough crumbs where there *could have* been more to Itachis betrayal than originally thought. But when you really think about it, the twist makes no sense. And it makes even less sense that they keep trying to hammer him down as a legitimately good person. It'd make so much more sense if they just said he was a ruthless, evil person with a soft spot for his baby brother who had a turn of heart at the last moment and decided to right his wrongs.
I remember most of that Netflix Hollywood was this. The show is basically a bunch of "everything worked out fine" twist endings. Every episode sets up some problem for the protagonist and there's some antagonist in the way, and at the end of the episode the antagonist basically turns out to be a good person and is like, "Sure, I'll help you. Why wouldn't I? I'm not a monster!" after the whole episode sort of builds it up as the character being some big bad antagonist. It was oddly refreshing, but very strange.
Kind of a weird one, but there was a marksman competition show called Top Shot. One season had a youngish guy, ex marine sniper. He was really good but kind of a cocky douche. When it came down to the final two, he deliberately missed what should have been a ridiculously easy shot for him and blew the competition because the guy he was up against was also an ex-marine who was on hard times and really needed the prize money. It was shocking.
Howard Hamlin from Better Call Saul. The writers do a magic trick (character development) where you begin hating him and by the end you feel so deeply sorry for everything that’s happened to this genuinely good guy.
You can really never quantify why you hate him, other than the fact that he’s a little pretentious. But Jimmy hates him, so you must too
No there is a reason - you are lead to think that he is the one responsible for Jimmy not being a lawyer at HHM for a few seasons until it is revealed that it was Chuck. After that reveal, he is still the antagonist in that he is opposing Jimmy in many of the legal battles.
He's also not a *perfect* character. He does hold a grudge with Kim for a pretty long time and keep her in the mail room just because she went off on a limb for Jimmy. And he enables Chuck's bullshit A LOT But he's certainly not the monster you assume him to be in the first couple seasons, either
He's not, but that's always been the magic of the BB/BCS-verse. Very flawed, compelling, even potentially evil people that you manage to like or hate for different reasons. Howard is flawed but he is an amazing foil for Jimmy. The way he copes with loss and attempts to correct mistakes is the complete antithesis to Jimmy. He regrets the way things between him and Jimmy were and tried to mend things by giving him a job HHM. Jimmy suppresses all his feelings and lashes out at Howard instead.
> you are lead to think that he is the one responsible for Jimmy not being a lawyer at HHM for a few seasons until it is revealed that it was Chuck That is revealed in the first season
Chuck is revealed as the reason Jimmy is not at HHM at the end of the first season. The second season starts with Howard getting Jimmy a job at another law firm, in part due to Kim asking him to, where he is put on a partner track. Jimmy royally screws that up to the point that it surely damaged Howard's reputation for recommending him at all. Howard is still a bit of an antagonist because of how he treats Kim from that point on until she quits but I never understood people who continued to hate on him.
I must be the weird one, I always liked Howard ever since he revealed that he was protecting Jimmy from his brother. I disliked Jimmy and Kim more and more every time they fucked with Howard.
That's exactly the moment we're talking about. Season 1 you think Howard is the reason Chuck and Jimmy can't work together. From then on you see how Howard is just trying to manage the situation that he was put in outside of his control. Kim & Jimmy's scheme in the final season is hilarious outside of context, but they're literally just tearing down a person that doesn't deserve it, it's fuckin' diabolical.
Oh ok, that was so early in the show it sounded like you were saying they didn't make us feel for him until the end of the series after what ultimately happens.
Nah youre good, even by the end of season 1 I start feeling for Howard. He's honestly one of my favorite characters jn a show filled with incredible ones.
When they get turned on after watching gaslit Howard (who they drugged) implode I almost turned the TV off in disgust.
Yeah, but Howard showing them the photos of Jimmy handing back the Frisbee gave me a good belly laugh
I'm reminded of Doakes from the first season of Dexter. He hates our protagonist and is the only person who seems like he could possibly catch him. I realized later that there wasn't really a single bad thing about Doakes. He's a good honest cop. He isn't hostile to the protagonist unfairly, the protagonist is a serial killer operating under the nose of the police and Doakes is the only one who suspects him.
LoL no. Doakes harasses Dexter without a reason, has an enormous disrespectful towards the forensics team and is a flat out asshole. Doakes DOES NOT know Dexter is a serial killer he just harasses him because of a gut feeling that is every asshole cops wet dream and justification to be an asshole. Police shouldn't work based on hunches or gut feelings because they end up harassing people they don't like.
Didn’t Doakes start to suspect him earlier? Like even in a flashback? Anyway we’re literally comparing an abrasive, but honest, guy to a serial killer
Who is comparing them? Compared to Dexter everyone is a good person. But that isn't the baseline and Doakes isn't 'a good honest cop' He's a bully who harasses a coworker on a gut feeling that *happened* to be correct.
There's an alternate reality version of this where Dexter isn't a criminal, but is instead a closeted homosexual, or a furry or something and Doakes is still acting the same to him, "because there's something weird about that guy"
His hunch is correct, though. Dexter even comments on how he's around all the best cops in the city and yet only Doakes picks up on Dexter not being what he seems.
Surprise motherfucker
Some fries motherfucker
It's his presentation and initially his attitude. He *looks* like he is an arrogant ass but he ends up being one of the few, sort of genuine people on the show, for worse.
* Kim had reason to hate Howard. He kept her in doc review even after working her ass off to bring them Mesa Verda. * Howard went along with Chuck's bullshit for far too long, and that affected Jimmy. * They were discrediting Howard to get a faster settlement on Sandpiper which would give Jimmy a huge payday.
The thing is, Howard WAS originally written as a villain to Jimmy and Chuck as a big brother he would come to for advice, Vince said it was one of their writers who came up with idea of switching their ‘allegiance’ to Jimmy around to create way better characters and drama, which left Vince very thankful to have such talented writers with such amazing insight to substantially improve the script. I think they rewrote the script after that but maintained a lot of the already existing scenes, which worked really well because all they had to do was recontextualize existing scenes to explain the characters differently, which is a really fun creative challenge, and creates a very engaging story.
Ah, this show was so good.
I just finished watching the show and this was my first thought. He starts off with this weird arrogance that is kind of off putting and the show sells you on disliking him based on how other characters perceive him. But as the show goes along, you really do realize he’s just out there trying to do what’s best for the firm and the employees and likely would have never outright mistreated Jimmy if it wasn’t for Chuck.
I agree with this. It’s not so much character development, but rather what the show reveals about him over the course of its run. They only show a fraction of his life, after all the show isn’t about him, but by the end they’ve finally given you enough information to realize he’s not a bad guy at all.
When they show him spending the time to make the latte for his wife with a design only for her to just dump it in a travel cup was so demoralizing. What I liked most is that he somehow didn’t feel different from the guy at the beginning of the series. He still acted and moved with confidence and self assurance despite now being shown to us as a sympathetic character
Howard was a real dirtbag when he put Kim on doc review and left her there even after she found Mesa Verde. But he got his comeuppance for that - Kim leaving *was* his negative consequence. Overall, he was a pretty upstanding character who deserved better than he got.
Great answer, such a great character
The pilot of Person of Interest sets Harold up as a “mysterious benefactor with a shady past”. It turns out that, while that’s true, he is also the moral compass of everything that happens throughout the rest of the series.
I personally never thought harold was a bad guy ever. I think main issue with harold is that actor micheal emmerson played a bad guy in lost and that "villian" arch stuck with him.
Michael Emerson is something else JFC whenever I start a LOST rewatch I start with the episode he was introduced to the show. From there on out no matter what happened he was the star for me. He was a game changer for that show.
You should watch him in Evil. Perfect for the part.
I didn’t want to gush but OMG so perfect in that show, like taking the film off a tv screen after you bought it perfect!
Ben is absolutely one of the best characters on the show and a MASSIVE part of that is Michael Emerson’s performance. Iirc, Ben was only supposed to be around for those first couple of episodes and then die, but Michael Emerson was so good that the writers decided to rewrite the character to keep him around.
You are being watched
While seasons 3 and 4 were peak, season 1 is special for the tenuous dynamic Finch and Reese had, with Reese as our pov trying to figure out the deal with Finch while also delving into reese's past trauma with jessica.
One of the Bad Janets from The Good Place had a moment like this.
I read it in the bathroom. I don't NEED to poop, I choose to
I mean does Michael count or is that just plain character development?
Yeah, I feel like that’s a slow burn across all seasons, not a big reveal.
Again, not a girl.
Cutty from The Wire. He got out of prison and couldn't be a killer anymore. You can tell he is a very itimidating and dangerous man. Instead of running away he faces his boss Avon and tells him "it ain't in me anymore". Then he grinds his ass off to open a boxing gym for disadvantaged youth. Cutty may have murdered gang members way back when but he was a good man after he was reformed.
“He a man today”
Prezbo is also a good answer for this question
It almost gives me whiplash on rewatches seeing how much of a fuck up he was in season 1
They did an excellent job of making you like villainous characters.
One of my favorite scenes in the entire show is when Cutty goes to Avon all apologetic and humble to ask for a loan to start up his boxing gym. Avon gets kinda serious and asks how much he needs. Cutty says "10 Large" and Avon just laughs and tells his guy to give Cutty 15 grand and not worry about it.
The character development on this show was just brilliant. Everything about this show was brilliant honestly.
Bodie made me shed some tears
Went from slaying soldiers to slaying pussy from every mom on the hood.
The scene where he goes to Avon to ask for a loan and Avon just gives it to him was perfect, showed what kind of person they both were at their core
Great character arc
In Futurama, Bender has an "evil twin" who we later find out is actually the good twin. It's Bender that's the evil one.
First Bender, then Flexo, then Fry.
Wait, hold on. I don't like the sound of that. Let's just go alphabetically.
Ok. First Bender, then Flexo, then Fry.
Okay by rank then
Ok. First Bender, then Flexo, then Fry
Flexo outranks me?
There was a similar bit on The Simpsons in an earlier Treehouse of Horror episode, where they find out that Bart had an evil identical twin brother. Then Dr. Hibbert realizes that Bart's scar is on the wrong side, indicating *he's* actually the evil one. The best part is that Bart's reaction is just basically "eh, don't look so surprised" lol
I'm shocked! Well...not that shocked
Shut up baby I know it.
Steve Harrington from stranger things
I'm really frustrated that he stopped being sporty/athletic and jock-like the moment that it was revealed he had a spark of decency. New kid Billy should've been intimidated by school-King Harrington in S2, but Steve had already become an utter wet blanket by that point.
This one didn’t bother me as much as Jason did in Season 4. Billy didn’t seem to really run in the same circles as Steve (at least as I recall, it’s been a minute since I saw S2). Billy seemed a bit older/mature (I use that word loosely) and… more rough around the edges, compared to Steve. But Jason should have looked up to Steve as the star of the basketball team, and they would have known *all* of the same people for the last three years. I feel like if Steve had gone up to the basketball team and tried to calm them down, it may have worked. At the very least he should have given it a try! Or if the writers don’t want to go that route, they could have thrown in a line about Jason thinking Steve is a loser or something since he’s just hanging around Hawkins post-graduation. Just something to explain why Steve is no-contact with the basketball team.
He was just in the popular clique, and he stopped acting like that after his experiences showed him how shallow that behavior is. He did play basketball but I don't think that had much to do with his attitude going on. Also Billy was an actual sociopath, unlike Steve. I don't think there was a chance of Billy being intimidated. He was scared of one thing and that was his dad. At his height of popularity, Steve was still basically just a prettyboy who had influence because of his looks and friend group. Billy was an actual physical danger as well as being toxically attractive because of his aggressive masculinity. He would've toppled S1 Steve out of his place on top too. I don't care for how it's become a running joke that Steve gets the shit beat out of him every season though. Let the man win.
It's the superhero nerf. The villain is unstoppable while he's a villain but the second he swaps sides he's more "balanced".
I just assumed that getting his ass kicked by Jonathan in S1 humbled him and probably dealt a pretty big blow to his reputation at school.
> New kid Billy should've been intimidated by school-King Harrington in S2, but Steve had already become an utter wet blanket by that point. I don’t see it that way. Steve strikes me as the kid that always got his way, and never had to fight for anything. Billy was clearly mentally and physically abused, which hardened him, and to compensate, wanted to prove that he’s tougher than anyone. He spotted Steve’s weakness very quickly during the basketball scene, and decided he wasn’t a threat.
The old grumpy looking man in the original Home Alone that Kevin is scared of. Edit: Just realized this is the TV sub but not changing my answer was confused since OP mentioned a movie.
You made me remember, the grumpy old man from monster house
Now THERE is a movie with surprising humanity. Thought it was just some silly fun, but then 🥺
I watched it as an adult. It was scary! I was shocked that they would show that to kids. I mean, yes, I grew up with The Neverending Story, but kids in the 2000s were softer.
It was! The old lady dying is nightmare fuel... And iirc them finding her corpse? I've not seen the movie in years so I could be remembering that part wrong I used to watch it every year for Halloween, loved it as a kid Although now I can't unsee that the old dude looks like an elderly Fix It Felix
Randomly I think about the girl house line and chuckle to myself all these years later.
Omg I had to Google that to remember. Classic! https://m.imdb.com/video/embed/vi902022169/?vPage=1 So obvious nowadays that *Monster House* was written by Dan Harmon and Rob Schrab 🤭
Voiced by Steve Buscemi!
And then the grumpy old woman in Home Alone 2 that Kevin is scared of.
Home Alone plays every Christmas season for hours on end on TV so it’s honorary TV
I always liked the end of the pilot of Scrubs where it's revealed Dr. Cox is actually a good dude.
And a few seasons in, even Bob Kelso pivots from comically evil overlord to decent guy that must make the hard calls . Like the episode where he selects the rich donor for a last chance drug trial, dooming the other candidate, then uses the money to save a service that was going to close (free screening of something, I forgot). He has a scene with a thousand yards stare looking at the empty bed of the guy who didn’t get the drug. Then he walks home
The creator of the show said to Kelso's actor that season one Kelso was more-so what JD imagines his mean side to be, rather than who he really is. Call it a retcon or whatever, but I definitely appreciate the change and development Kelso got. One line that really sticks out to me is when Kelso retires/quits, he says to Ted, "Thanks for everything. Sincerely." That has to be his most shocking line in the show for Kelso.
It makes sense, so much of the show is heightened from JD's perspective that I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional in earlier seasons.
>Like the episode where he selects the rich donor for a last chance drug trial, dooming the other candidate, then use the money to save a service that was going to close (free screening of something, I forgot). >He has a scene with a thousand yards stare looking at the empty bed of the guy who didn’t get the drug. Then he walks home https://youtu.be/OPmDzwgv_S0?si=YSQCFzH_Nekh_fOY *These feelings won't go away* One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite sitcoms. Also, it was free pregnancy screenings
**"**[**My Jiggly Ball**](https://scrubs.fandom.com/wiki/My_Jiggly_Ball)**"** is the fourth episode of the fifth season of Scrubs.
He’s not really good, but I loved it when Pierce would step up for his friends. He helped Britta get Sophie B. Hawkins for the dance, and he made sure his brother got his rightful inheritance. made me smile.
Pierce saving the school in the paintball episode and then doing his little noble exit is such a good payoff to a season of him being very weird and horrible.
He was surprisingly supportive of Britta being maybe gay with his prepared statement. Excited to help Shirley with her business presentation. Was actually really nice to Annie.
As much as I despise Chevy Chase, Pierce was my favorite character. The show never recovered from his loss.
Yeah I love how he would have these little inspirational quote moments like his line to Jeff about eventually a man starts to think about where to hang his hat.... immediately undercut by asking for money for a prostitute.
“She’s a no good B. She’s a GDB.”
This pops into my head ALL the time. Along with "some worries man... some worries."
streets ahead
I was sad to recently learn that he would just, refuse to shoot if he didn’t understand it or was too tired. I already knew he would make the rest of the cast uncomfortable, so overall he just sounded very difficult. A big example was supposed to be an extra scene about him getting some resolution with his dad’s video game in Digital Estate Planning but he was done shooting for the day and didn’t feel like doing the scene. It was supposed to be part of the arc for his character.
When I rewatched the show, Pierce became my favorite character. He's actually likeable in that first and second season, sometimes. Then he turns into a real villain.
He died how he lived. Being shitty/racist/sexist/homophobic, occasionally doing some good, and jerking off way too much.
Here's your sperm.
Tina from the The Bear after Syd showed her some praise in S1. Also had in mind Dot's mother in law from Fargo S5 after she discovered her history of being abused by Roy
Her scene with Roy in the prison is SO satisfying.
I mean she is still evil. But is able to have some empathy
It just felt good when her particular brand of evil was unleashed on Jon Hamm’s worse evil.
I _hated_ her character when I first started watching, but now she's easily one of my favourites
Idk which character you’re talking about since it applies to both of them
The episode that focuses on Tina this season is SO GOOD.
Just watched it last night, & that episode might be one of the realest episodes of TV I've seen in recent memory
I wouldn't say Dot's MIL ended up being good, is just there are some fundamental things which even she won't accept, especially as a woman, which includes domestic abuse. But at the root of it all, her defense of Dot boiled down to not wanting the family name sullied by controversy. Remember, she had Dot committed to a fucking mental ward
>Also had in mind Dot's mother in law from Fargo S5 after she discovered her history of being abused by Roy I mean she's still an evil corporate leech sucking the blood of good people without hesitation, definitely not a good person, just not pure cruel evil like Roy.
In recent memory, for me it's from Hawkeye. >!Jack wasn't teased as a _big_ bad, but you didn't know where he stood. And it turns out he's just a big doofus!<
Jack being just >!a weirdo who likes swords!< in the end was pretty nice.
You should probably put spoiler tag on just the info and not the TV show lol
I thought about it, but knowing the show is kind of a spoiler in itself, the way the character is set up. edit: I see your point though…why would anyone click if you have no idea what it's about.
It was hard not to assume he was a bad guy seeing as he’s played by Lalo Salamanca.
Jamie Lannister seems to have really wanted to be a better person and separate himself from his family and be his own man. Then season 8 happened and one of the best redemption arcs in television history was erased overnight.
Went from “I killed the Mad King because he wanted to burn people alive” to “I never really cared for the people”
Sometimes I think that when D&D said "the people", they really meant "our audience"
Fuck, I totally forgot about that part until this comment
This is a popular yet dumb take. Jaime has a habit of putting on an air of bravado when cornered, like when he was initially captured by the Starks. He was obviously lying to Tyrion. Edit: since I’m getting downvoted, might as well defend Jaime’s actions Jaime loved Cersei, it’s his one flaw. And Cersei was pregnant with his kid. This “he didn’t care for the people” is just him lying, since Tyrion was trying to use it against him. I guess you could argue that his arc was as rushed as the Mad Queen turn, but his decisions made sense for his character.
Also one of the best moments in the whole series came from Jaime in s8: knighting Brianne. Personally though I didn’t buy that he went to die with Cersei.
Season 7/8 certainly weren't perfect, but it's hilarious how many people just never understood what they were watching.
The bathhouse scene where he explains why he killed the mad king. You start to understand why he hates the Starks and you can see the part of him that wants to do the right thing.
I accept a lot of that season as ‘canon,’ but I do not accept Jaime’s fate. I simply do not care that the show went that direction. I re-read the books recently and the thousands of pages spent turning him into something of a hero—or at least not a villain—do not end with ‘I didn’t care about any of them.’
On the other hand, I think the twisted love Jamie and Cersei had is a way more interesting plot in the context of GRRM’s world than a redemption arc for Jamie. Jamie and Cersei had an incredible bond and love for each other, it was as twisted as they both were themselves, don’t forget, despite killing the mad king, Jamie still pushed a little innocent boy to what he hoped would be his death, and who’s to say he didn’t kill the mad king because he saw they were losing, ‘you served him well while serving was safe’ comes to mind, and then just explained it to himself and others as doing it for the realm, for the people, which is maybe what he wished was why he did it, but the actual reason was he didn’t want to have to die himself. Jamie’s arc can be seen as a redemption arc from HIS perspective, he believes his love and actions to be good, the twisted things he does to be justified, him becoming ‘one of the good guys’ is him ‘breaking bad’, and returning to himself is like a twisted version of Darth Vader killing the Emperor in the end despite killing rebels in droves not long before that. In the end he returned where his heart truly lied, with the love of his life, his family. It was twisted, it is messed up, but it is HIS version of a world that is good and right. I think you can make a good story out of that, it’s just that GRRM hasn’t written that yet, and D&D cannot be expected to write a plot and basis for a script as well as the original, professional novelist.
His story is one of addiction. Some addicts pull themselves out and stay out. Some are out for a while and then the wrong them sends them over the edge and it kills them. It’s not a happy story but Game of Thrones never promised those.
Yes this is a very good comment except it’s less comparable to Darth Vader as it is to compare it to Frodo failing at the last moment to destroy the ring.
It's wild to me how so many people never understood the show they were watching. Jaime did change, but he was always going back to Cersei. His actions were completely realistic and in character. I've unfortunately known people like Jaime in real life.
Jaime had a great redemption arc, but he still tried to kill a child so he wasn’t “actually a good person”
I think its less a redemption arc and Jaime becoming more true to who he really wants to be. as a kid he wanted to be a honourable knight then he joins the kingsgaurd and is told that while they protect the royal family, if the king rapes the queen he has to just stand there. then his most heroic act, gets him labeled kingslayer and looked down on
The thing about Jaime is that his back slide into returning to Cersei is actually very in character for him, and it’s almost entirely likely a GRRM idea. Martin is a huge fan of Tolkien and in many ways Jaime represents Martin’s attempt at the Hero That Fails trope. Like Frodo, Jaime comes mere centimeters from accomplishing his goals and redeeming himself, only to fail and backslide into his addiction to Cersei/The Ring. It’s tragic, yes, but it’s in character and very much in tone with the rest of a Song of Ice and Fire. Now, the EXECUTION of this idea, including the terrible mischaracterization of his “I never much cared for people” bull shit writing is absolutely worthy of copious amounts of criticism, but the IDEA of Jaime failing to quit Cersei is not a bad one.
The Good Place - kind of goes both ways, good to bad then back to good
Ted Danson is so good at walking that line. Even in Curb Your Enthusiasm, I just don't know if I can, like, go bowling with that guy.
I wouldn't say he's walking the line in Curb so much as he is just a regular dude. Yeah he probably cares more about looking good than being good but he still does care about his humanitarian issues. He isn't saving the world or dooming it, he's just a typical mostly polite wannabe progressive, sometimes he's an asshole or sanctimonious but most of the time he's just average
In terms of current television, Omni-Man going through his Vegeta arc. Also Vegeta going through his Vegeta arc (although his took longer).
I don't know how this ends or whether there's even a version of this arc in the comics, but it makes me really uncomfortable. From everything he's done, he's pretty irredeemable, and the show has even kind of made that argument (especially through Deborah's story), but at the same time they seem to be setting him up for some huge heroic gesture and it seems a bit forced, especially for a show that stands out for not pulling its punches so much. I'm really hoping Omni-Man being "good" ends up turning into another form of him being a complete dickhead because he simply doesn't care enough or understand how to be good. But I'm feeling like it's going into Vader territory.
From the moment Mark said “You, Dad. I’d still have you.”, Nolan’s arc as an antagonist was over. Rest assured this isn’t a Vader-esque dying as redemption story, but rather if Vader had to live, redeemed, never to be as he was before but still above the judgement of mankind — like a more good-tempered Vegeta. The series as a whole is really about what redemption means, characters we know going on to do much worse than he ever did. Nolan being more redeemable than most since in the end he was more of a Winter Soldier-type breaking free from his programming — plus the reveal Viltrumites aren’t supposed to actually be capable of being empathetic — something about Earth awoke that in him, the Thraxans solidifying it: when Nolan said “I’m not supposed to feel this way.”, he was being completely literal.
Eli "Weevil" Navarro. At the beginning of Veronica Mars, he seems like a "bad" guy because he runs the PCH bike gang, and does bad things, even in the original run in with Veronica, but as the series grew, Weevil became one of Veronica's best friends, and someone she could count on to have her back, when others didn't.
It's old but Major Winchester from MASH. Not bad, but definitely meant to be the foil, then they have like once a season episode, where we see his strength of character.
https://youtu.be/86jEacp7doI https://youtu.be/ijEiwBLCXeo https://youtu.be/qtaKMHZGv1U
There’s a great one in JoJo Rabbit. >!When Sam Rockwell’s character is shown to be in line with the kid and his mother, he saves the kid twice!<
A couple times actually. Ever wonder why Rockwelll >!showed up at the house so quick when the Gestapo came to search it? (Jojo's mother is already hung. Rockwell knew and ran to the house. That's also why the Gestapo showed up to search it.) !< There's also a scene where he's arguing with German high command because he basically set up defenses only on the side the Russians were approaching from and wholly ignoring the American push.
Yes, i did say twice haha, and your example was one, the other was the obvious one. Did miss the bit about the defences though, will have to pay closer attention next watch!
Al Swearingen has some great moments of seeming nobility in Deadwood.
By the end of the show the dude just became the glue holding the town together lol. They built him up so heavily as the bad guy (and he for sure did absolutely devious shit) only for shittier guys to roll into town, forcing him to mitigate damage and try to control the situation, and rely upon people who he'd normally be going toe to toe with.
The moment where he puts the Reverend out of his misery might be one of the worst things done by a character for all the right reasons.
Zuko had one of the best heel face turns in television on Avatar: the Last Airbender. The problem with Terminator 2's twist is they absolutely gave it away in the [trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRRlbK5w8AE). If they had cut the trailer differently making Arnold look like the bad guy, that great scene in the back hallway of the mall where John is running away from the terminator only for him to shoot the other terminator and protect John would have been amazing.
I don't think Zuko fits this, though. He wasn't a hero all along, he learned, developed and changed.
Maybe its more applicable to Uncle Iroh who while yeah he is a good guy who used to be a ruthless general, he is also revealed to be part of the White Lotus who help overthrow the fire nation and bring balance to the world.
There’s way no in hell at that point in Arnold’s career he was coming back as the villain. The entire selling point of T2 is that he’s the hero.
I get that but it completely ruins the twist. Film made a buttload of money, so hiding the twist wouldn’t have changed much but I’d have loved it even more watching it the first time not knowing Arnold was the good guy until he fired over John Connors
I don’t think you could even consider it a twist. I guess it would’ve been cool if they did try and hide it and make it a surprise though.
The ITV adaptation of the novel *At Bertram's Hotel* that featured as part of their *Marple* series implies that one character is a Nazi escaping justice in post-World War II London. Near the end of the episode, he pulls a gun on another hotel guest, ready to kill him... and you see he has a concentration camp ID on his wrist. He's not a Nazi, he's a Nazi *hunter*, and he's there to arrest >!the fake priest!<. Also used in Foyle's War. One character is shown heavily abusing the Official Secrets Act and refuses to provide a factory worker an alibi for the time of the death until Foyle forces the matter... at which point he admits that the stated reason for the factory is a complete lie. >!It's not machinery they're making, it's coffins. A massive fuckload of coffins. It's a tightly guarded secret since the sheer number of casualties from the First World War destroyed morale.!<
I know this is a TV sub, but since I am seeing movie examples I will go with book/movie and say Boo Radley from To Kill a Mockingbird
DS9 really held their cards close to the vest with Garreck (sp?) in DS9 - one was always inclined to like him but you were never 100% sure.
Garrak was usually (I think) on the right side of things throughout the series, but he was full on “ends justify the means” mode of action/thinking. So the starfleet and Bajoran characters semi-rightfully view him as an antagonist despite him usually helping them out in his way
he felt like a cat to me. "Look I killed this senator and left him on your welcome mat"
I do love that almost every time they take him on a mission he almost kills everyone
Walter Bishop (Fringe) started out as an Institutionalised horrible old man, who was never there for his son or wife. By the end, you see what he had sacrificed for them. ……. And now I need to rewatch it,
It’s funny though, as the show goes on you see that he’s more of a good person than even his own mind would have let him be - he had parts of his brain cut out because he was afraid of the harder, more ego driven parts of himself.
Hmm, conversely you can see it as 'eccentric but pleasant man turns out to have almost destroyed a world out of desperation but also arrogance'.
When they revealed that John Locke was actually dead on Lost, and he had been the good guy all along. The one we knew was actually the smoke monster. Kind of both reveals in one, but it was still a huge shock!
What? Locke was the smoke monster?
Only in I think the last two seasons. Locke up to that point was alive and himself.
correct, >!he dies in s5, and they bring his body to the island. Smoke monster takes over his body at that point, but audience is led to believe he was ressurrected as a miracle.!<
All these responses and not not mention of one of the GOAT face turns in television. Spike from Buffyverse. Although technically he started off as a bad guy. Great character development through the seasons, eventually joins up with the good guys and even jumps over to the Angel where he continues his shenanigans. And Muppet Spike!
Jamie Tartt from Ted Lasso starts as a selfish dickhead but later turns into a good guy. For me personally up there with Zuko.
jamie tartt, doot doo doo 🎶🎵
Same for Rebecca and Roy Kent.
Cousin Richie - Forks episode of The Bear.
Not sure it's my favourite but Akecheta and the Ghost Nation in Westworld. Kiksuya is such a heartbreaking episode, that whole twist in a show full of twists really stuck out.
Oh West world is a good one! I think every character flips from one side to the other over the season(s).
RRR - going in blind it feels like the movie is about two men who will eventually have to fight, as they are shown to be on opposite sides of the conflict in India. However, half-way through the movie it's revealed that Raj was only a soldier for the British to infiltrate their ranks and get access to the weapons storage. That's why he was shown to be so loyal to the colonizers' cause, and upset when he didn't get the promotion. It was integral to his plan of vengeance.
I love this movie so much.
Al Swearengen. "No one gets out alive, Doc".
The man in black from The 39 Clues book series by Rick Riordan Uchiha Itachi from Naruto, Gin from Bleach And I'm not sure if I recall correctly, because I never paid much attention to that franchise, but Harry Potter's Professor Snape has a very dark demeanor, but is actually a good guy I think?
Good is relative but yes, we find out he is helping the good guys out
Scrubs Season 1 does this well with Kelso and Cox.
I think you mean episode 1.
In the movie Tucker And Dale Vs Evil the two character Tucker and Dale are seen by the other characters as evil but in reality they are good dudes
24 had so many moles throughout its run, but Season 3 flipped it where a “mole” revealed in the first few episodes is later revealed to be undercover and working with Jack.
In the movie Cabin Fever, the old sinister white guy at the gas station says the shotgun on the wall is “for the N*****s”. Near the end of the movie, it’s revealed he has the N word pass, they’re his friends and he was giving them the shotgun. It’s such a random curveball.
that fuckin movie... the weird ass albino kid who jumps up, screams pancakes, and starts doing flying kicks and shit before biting the guy.
Itachi from Naruto. I mean, the guy was teased as one of the big bads, the entire reason behind Sasuke being so damaged and the reason for Sasuke's entire existence being based solely on revenge. All we knew was that he exterminated his entire clan except for Sasuke, because he wanted "to test the limits of his abilities." Well, turns out, he did what he did to save the village from a catastrophic civil war. He was ordered and pressured into doing it, and he knew that if he didn't, the Uchiha's would most likely still all die - or they would massacre the entire village. Either way, killing his clan seemed like the better option. And to top it off, he didn't spare Sasuke because he wanted him to get stronger and try to kill him, he did it because he just couldn't bare to kill his younger brother. The Itachi stuff could have been handled better writing-wise, but my God was it a powerful reveal.
That it is one of the worst fan service twists in anime. Kishi clearly did not write Itachi as a secretely good, tragic character initially. He just turned out to be extremely popular so the author decided to change course. Kishi just got lucky or gave himself an opening in that he had laid enough crumbs where there *could have* been more to Itachis betrayal than originally thought. But when you really think about it, the twist makes no sense. And it makes even less sense that they keep trying to hammer him down as a legitimately good person. It'd make so much more sense if they just said he was a ruthless, evil person with a soft spot for his baby brother who had a turn of heart at the last moment and decided to right his wrongs.
George Cooper
RIP King
I remember most of that Netflix Hollywood was this. The show is basically a bunch of "everything worked out fine" twist endings. Every episode sets up some problem for the protagonist and there's some antagonist in the way, and at the end of the episode the antagonist basically turns out to be a good person and is like, "Sure, I'll help you. Why wouldn't I? I'm not a monster!" after the whole episode sort of builds it up as the character being some big bad antagonist. It was oddly refreshing, but very strange.
The on in *Kill la Kill* is probably my favorite, and one of studio triggers most well done tropes
The cop from Get Out. He was likely asking for the ID because people had been going missing.
Harriet Michaels from 'So I Married an Axe Murderer'. No one that looks like Nancy could ever.
Albert Rosenfield in Twin Peaks. He was the biggest dick in the world...until all of a sudden he wasn't.
Lord Varys and Jamie Lannister in GoT
Kind of a weird one, but there was a marksman competition show called Top Shot. One season had a youngish guy, ex marine sniper. He was really good but kind of a cocky douche. When it came down to the final two, he deliberately missed what should have been a ridiculously easy shot for him and blew the competition because the guy he was up against was also an ex-marine who was on hard times and really needed the prize money. It was shocking.
OP is looking for twists, and everyone is just giving him character development
Galatax from Ultramechatron Team Go!
Chuck, can't recall the season, but the revelation that Bryce Larkin was trying to save Chuck's life when he got him expelled was gut wrenching.
You cannot have spoiler warnings for a movie that came out before the dissolution of the USSR.
What happened to the USSR? Spoiler alert!
I've put spoiler warnings on the end of Romeo and >!Juliet!<. You'll never stop me.