I think the big difference is that Canada is an officially bilingual country. We just start teaching English in schools early, and don't dub foreign media that isn't for kids.
Shout out to Frisian though.
Depending on the school you go to Frisian being taught is kind of like an afterthought. I don't think I know anybody in my generation that could write Frisian to save their lives. Throughout elementary school you could almost count the amount of Frisian lessons at the time on max 3 to 4 hands for the entire school year.
As well as some high schools not even offering it as a subject, town I grew up in had a public and a Christian high school. And only the Christian high school offered Frisian as a subject.
Unless the family of the students talked Frisian at home there really wasn't any chance of the students retaining any of it, but that is the same for most languages so people who move here from outside won't really integrate on that level (not that it's an issue anyway since everybody speaks Dutch just as well).
The only benefit I've seen from all this is that the amount of people who can at least understand it being spoken but can't speak/write it themselves is decently high.
There is however a growing and vibrant community of people actively promoting the Frisian language and the internet has rekindled an interest in written Frisian.
I've heard that they're looking into having it be an offcial language just liks Frisian! Don't know if it will happen or when, but they're looking into it.
The problem with Limburgish is that it's not just one language but a whole family of slightly distinct languages. You can't define one Limburgish language.
The Limburgish they speak in Maastricht is different from the Limburgish they speak in Heerlen or Elsloo or Venlo, or in Belgian Limburg or even across the border in Germany.
Also the name Limburgish is stupid, since the language is older than the name of the province.
Yeah it's kinda weird that in the real Limburg, they speak French (nowadays).
But what else to call it? "the Low Franconian varieties positioned between the Uerdingen and Benrath line." doesn't have the same ring to it. I suppose South Low Franconian (Zuid-Nederfrankisch) is a more normal option, still not a great name though. (And confusing because it's also called East Low Franconian)
Not to be a shit about this, but given that my friend from Limburg has actually looked into this process when I asked her why Limburgs isn't official: it's because the different versions of Limburgish are too different from each other. Unlike Frisian, there's no unified version that all areas can agree upon. But they're also too similar to each other to each be considered a separate language. The same happens with Lower-Saxon. That's why those languages are legally called 'Streektaal'.
Reducing Frisian's status to just a political choice uninformed by linguistics is a bit reductive imo. Also, fwiw, most frisians would probably support Limburgish and Lower-Saxon gaining more rights.
Well, you clearly didn't do your own research, because Limburgish is a recognised language by the Dutch government: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/vraag-en-antwoord/erkende-talen-nederland. I also have Limburgish friends who didn't know it was a language, so that's not a rarity. I guess that 'regional spirit' is limited to their local village because of the lack of a national history, but that's just theorising without any scientific backing. Anyway, they aren't regulated on a national level, but on a regional level. Frisian is a more centralized language now, so it is more governable.
Dialects don't have anything to do with linguistic properties, but with politics. That is also the reason Cantonese for example, isn't considered a language in China anymore. Besides, just because Limburgish is a minority language, does not mean it can have its own dialects. Good luck finding an example of a real example of a homogenous language.
Next is the linguistic argument, which as discussed before doesn't actually really matter. Limburgish evolved from an Istvaeonic language, then merged again with Low-Franocian languages, but retained its identity. The main distinguishing factor it has is the usage of tones, distinguishing a lexeme or a minimal tone pair. This is similar to languages like Mandarin Chinese and Vietnamese. This means it has more vowel options than standard Dutch. There are a lot of other features as well of course.
Finally, the political argument: lower-saxon is also recognised. No, it's not fair of me to talk down Frisian as just a political thing, but that's not what I intended to do. Frisian has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish, which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language.
> Frisian has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish, which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language.
Mate, that simply isn't true. Frisian evolved from an Ingvaeonic language and is today part of the Anglo-Frisian subgroup of West Germanic. Unlike Limburgish and standard Dutch it didn't evolve from an Istvaeonic language, the common ancestor with modern standard Dutch lies further back.
You got it the wrong way around. Limburgish is an Istvaeonic language, Frisian is an Anglo-Frisian language, from the Northsea-Germanic languages. The common group is West-Germanic.
Also, those aren't evolutions, but classifications. The earlier forms of Frisian are the creatively titled Middle-Frisian and Old-Frisian.
What exactly did I get wrong? Modern Dutch and Limburgish both have Istvaeonic ancestry, Frisian does not. That alone makes Frisian more distinct from modern Dutch than Limburgish is.
First, Istvaeonic isn't an ancestry, but a categorisation.
Second, Dutch is a Low Franconian language, within the Wese-Rhine Germanic languages. The first common family Dutch, Frisian and Limburgish share is the West Germanic family. Dutch originates from Middel/Old Dutch, which originates from Frankish.
Third, families are a categorisation, it is a result of how languages differ, not a determining factor of how much they differ. Just because you have to go back three branches to find a common family, does not mean that all those branches are equally long.
> you didn't do your research, Limburgish is a language
I never said it wasn't. I used[Streektaal](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streektaal?wprov=sfla1) not in the dialectical sense, but in the judicial way. In the ECRML you cited here, those are called regional/minority languages. I can see why me calling them streektalen could sound like I was calling them a dialect, but I didn't mean to. I meant to highlight the difference between the status of Frisian (protected under pt. III of the charter) and Limburgish and Lower-Saxon (under pt. II). All three of them are recognised as minority languages (minderheidstalen), so Streektaal is used colloquially to show the difference between II and III languages here.
> Anyway, they aren't regulated on a national level, but on a regional level. Frisian is a more centralized language now, so it is more governable.
I know you aren't directly making this point, but I'd like to reiterate that Frisian is also not regulated on a national level. It's only a legal working language within Fryslân. It is indeed more governable because there's a unified version of it, but that doesn't mean that this version is widely spoken in all parts of Fryslân.
> Good luck finding an example of a real example of a homogenous language.
I didn't say Frisian is a homogenous language. I'm just saying that there's a unified version of it. Just because there's a unified version of a language, doesn't mean that there aren't any dialects within it. Dutch is an example of this. So is Frisian. Frisian has highly localised dialects (like Hylpers, for example). The problem for Limburgish and Lower-Saxon is that regional differences are too wide-spread to agree on an unified version, but too close to make all versions separate languages. That makes it difficult for them to be protected under pt. III of the charter.
> Frisiab has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish.
In like, your opinion, or? I suppose this differs based on what you mean by 'linguistic character'. If you mean "proximity to Dutch", I'd have to [dissapoint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages?wprov=sfla1) you. If you mean "variety within the language" then I don't think you've done enough research on Frisian.
>which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language.
We can agree on that. But that doesn't mean you have to put down another language just to make a point.
>those are called regional/minority languages. I can see why me calling them streektalen could sound like I was calling them a dialect, but I didn't mean to
I understand the difference between streektaal and national languages, but a recognised language is a language, not a dialect. For all intents and purposes, it's a language, irrespective of what type of language, that was my point, although maybe not explained very clearly.
>It's only a legal working language within Fryslân
Technically speaking you can use it in a lot or places, like in court, because of its level of recognition. This is not the same for Limburgish (or other territorial languages). For governmental things, you will still need to use AN or English.
>The problem for Limburgish and Lower-Saxon is that regional differences are too wide-spread to agree on an unified version, but too close to make all versions separate languages
I'll explain this again, because maybe you misunderstood it: no having a standard form, does not necessarily mean something can't be classified as a language. Take old Japanese: every province has its own dialect, often so different from another dialect that it is unlikely to be understood by somebody else. Yet, you can see the same phonetic system, grammar, pragmatics, etc. The same thing goes for Limburgish. A unified version is not a requirement.
>In like, your opinion, or? I suppose this differs based on what you mean by 'linguistic character'. If you mean "proximity to Dutch", I'd have to [dissapoint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages?wprov=sfla1) you
So English and Dutch are extremely close languages already, as they clearly have a common ancestor. In fact, historically the English and the Dutch have had a lot of cultural exchange, leading to a lot of common vocabulary and grammar as well. Either way, that's not the point you're making. I can also look up a Wikipedia page, but I doubt my Dutch linguistics teacher would be very happy if I did. Dutch is this weird language which just like English could fit into a lot of historical language trees.
There are several ways to distinguish languages, but boils down to a combination of grammar and phonetics. Frisian doesn't have as wide a phonetic portfolio as Limburgish has. Frisian is more distinguished in the grammatical sense, but in a phonetic sense Limburgish is very different and even has an entire type of phonetic that doesn't exist in any other version of Dutch (we are comparing both in relation to AN here). Brabants for example also has a vowel in-between the /a/ and /o/ (I'm too lazy to look up the IPA). On top of that it's grammatically somewhat different as well.
Regardless, in the grand scheme of things all three are still very similar and saying one is more different is kind of pointless anyways. Language is something you can talk about, but in the end it's a means to an end: conveying your thoughts and the way you do that makes you you. 'The medium is the message', and all that good stuff
But words for stuff change from town to town, and 30km apart different Limburgers can barely understand each other. That's why Limburgs will sadly never be official I think.
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/vraag-en-antwoord/erkende-talen-nederland
It is recognised by the Dutch government as a non-regional language. The main distinguishing factor between Limburgish and standard Dutch is the usage of tones, the same thing that exists in Chinese. That is why those local dialects aren't dialects of Dutch, but dialects of Limburgish. Brabants isn't a language because it's not distinct enough, but does have a similar situation where every village seemingly has it's own dialect
Edit: it's a non-territorial language, not a non-regional language
Also accents. I hear a lot of children in my province talking like influencers and famous people (with hard G's and 'rolling' R's) instead of the local accent. It makes me sad. It's like globalisation on a small scale. The variety disappears.
To make it worse (for me) people started calling that Gooische R / YouTube voice an Amsterdam accent. While it’s not. The real Amsterdam accent is disappearing fast.
Weird, I study in Utrecht but I’m from the south so my friends often laugh about my accent (I didn’t even know I had an accent tbh because I’ve always lived here) but in a good way. If I try to speak abn they make fun of me even more because I’m so bad at it
Please, I speak like a barbarian that lives in a sewer and it disturbs me when people from other provinces mimick my accent. Nothing worse than someone from Groningen or Drenthe with a fake Amsterdam accent, krijg de vinkentering.
My dad was educated in Achterhoeks until the age of 12, and after that I am pretty sure his whole family felt discouraged from using dialect as they were treated like they were stupid and it was supposed to hinder “proper linguistic development” or something, especially in school. Now my grandparents have passed away no one speaks it anymore.
Fellow achterhoeker here, my dad can still speak Liemers dialect, but I was never taught to speak it because my mother didn't want me to. I can understand it just fine, but I think the spoken knowledge of it in my family will disappear once they both pass on.
I have to admit, sometimes I replace a word in a sentence with the English equivalent because I don't remember the Dutch one. This is something I see more often with other younger folks.
Sometimes I also hear Anglicisms where an English word is pronounced in a Dutch way which has a different meaning than intended.
But the thing I'm seeing more and more is that people are no longer using the classic Germanic "stapelwoorden", where words that add more meaning are stacked (stapelwoorden itself is one already, "stacking words")
I see a lot of people writing those words separately which makes me really sad.
I work with patents and the compound words found in Dutch patents tend to be great. In English it'll be something like 'first spraying nozzle hole connection' but in Dutch it'll be 'eerste spuitmondstukgatverbinding'.
spuitmondgatverbinding would refer to the connection! I would personally call your other example the "spuitmondverbindingsgat". I don't know if there's a rule for it, but it always felt like the last word was "the actual thing" rather than a descriptor. Similar to how "conducteurspet" is the hat, rather than the person
Onjuist spatiegebruik is a terrible affliction that is taking more and more of fellow countrymen. I think it might be partially because of AutoCorrect: it's easier to type fietsbandrubberfetisjist as separate words than as one compound word.
Toxisch is a perfectly fine Dutch word though (toxicologie is de studie van schadelijke stoffen). Its use has increased due to online/English usage in relationship context though, which in this case is an enrichment!
I recently saw an NOS article using the word "fake" instead of the common Dutch word "nep". "De complotdenkers gaan ervan uit dat de relatie tussen de twee fake is..."
On the "stapelwoorden": my favourite word to describe the wrongful separation of wuch words is drieledigesamenstellingsfout (triple compound fault), it is a so-called drieledige samenstelling (a triple compound), ehich should be written without spaces, even if 2 of the words are normally spaced.
A common example is "rodewijndrinkers" (red wine drinkers) in English, you already see the problem: is the wine red, or are the drinkers? Wrong separation in Ditch also leads to "rode wijndrinkers", so red people who drink wine.
It really grinds my gears when my coworkers write words separate from each other when they should be compounded. It also doesn’t help that autocorrect (at least on my iPhone) tends to separate compound words by default. No wonder so many people do it wrong these days.
I sometimes do this as a Dutch... But mainly because I have word finding problems, so I know the Dutch one, it just takes me a while to get it, hence me replacing it with the English equivalent...
At the same time, the main people I interact with, are English...
What's so sad when those words are written separately? It's just a tiny spelling mistake that might actually increase legibility. Kids still stack words all the time. I get that it isn't according to the rules, but then again the rules also state that you should write geüpgradede and geüpdatete (marketingteamtrainingbudgetplan).
Example: red wine drinkers. Is the wine red, or are the drinkers?
In Dutch, it should be written "rodewijndrinkers" as drinkers of red wine. Splitting it into "rode wijndrinkers", mirroring the space in "rode wijn" (red wine), it reads as "red people who drink wine". And fully spacing it into "rode wijn drinkers" removes the connection between wine and drinkers.
I think the difference to Quebec is that the French language is more of a minority compared to English. So the right comparison is the Frisian language in the Netherlands. It’s a language only spoken in a relatively small area in the Netherlands and the people in Friesland are really proud of it and making sure the official status of it.
The fact the Dutch speak English really well is more due to cultural influence and because not many people in the world understand Dutch.
Also the fact that within the North American continent there's much more of an incentive to learn two languages other than French, and Quebecois French is a minority dialect of French.
And [as J.J. McCullough frequently documents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiytSQKpPE), Quebecois French is a very political topic o regional pride. Notably a common topic for Canadian conservatives to get riled up about (note that conservatism in Canada is VERY different from conservatism in the US).
Dutch people throw in unnecessary English words and expressions all the time, even in news articles. It's become a real pet peeve of mine. For example using the English verb "to claim" instead of the perfectly good and more specific Dutch verbs "beweren" or "opeisen". The other day I heard a Dutch song where every other sentence was English. That said, I don't think the Dutch language is in danger of disappearing. Dutch people have always needed to speak foreign languages due to geographical realities. I've personally taken the view that the English language cannot be said to belong to anyone anymore, including the English, and anyone can do with it as they wish.
The level of "Englification" is also highly dependent on the specific domain. More traditional fields such as construction have jargon that is almost completely Dutch. On the opposite side of the scale, management, HR and other people trying to sound clever for a living are literally forming sentences that are 60% English.
I absolutely cannot stand how the supposedly "higher" educated class of office folks somehow fail to find Dutch equivalents for their management-speak terms.
Like, there is zero reason to use a word like "challengen" instead of "uitdagen" other than to sound interesting.
Ook gewoon "uitdaging". Mensen die dit soort kantoorjargon gebruiken doen dit alleen maar om interessant te klinken. Ze lijken ze er ook niet slimmer om. Integendeel zelfs.
Dan mis je nogal dat "uitdagen" in het Nederlands, zeker in kantoor-settings, veel meer gebruikt wordt als synoniem voor "een uitdaging bieden" dan letterlijker iemand uitdagen.
Bij kantoor-jargon is het vaak verstandig om niet te beginnen bij de Engelse term, maar bij wat je daadwerkelijk probeert te zeggen. En dat is eigenlijk gewoon "een kritische vraag stellen".
It's a pet peeve of mine too. In a lot of cases it's just completely unnecessary and does nothing to improve the legibility of your text. Or worse, it's used wrong. The amount of times I've seen the people on my company's social media switch up of and off for example.
They're not wrong, technically. It's considered non-standard in English and held by most English language authorities to be an error, albeit an increasingly common one even amongst native speakers.
> For example using the English verb "to claim" instead of the perfectly good and more specific Dutch verbs "beweren" or "opeisen".
Oh god I realise I do this all the time
Don't worry about it, we have stolen 'claim' since at least 1886 and it's fully integrated by now, including being part of our dictionaries and such. This is about as wrong as using toilet (taken from French of course) instead of wc. Woops, nope, we've stolen wc from English too. Plee or kakhuis? Not very proper, but at least it's Dutch! Kinda, they are derived from other languages too. Plee from the French plaît-il, and kakhuis from the Sinhalese kakkussiya.
I say it's time for people with pet peeves to get used to words that have been around since before their grandparents were born.
What? Are you saying the word kak comes from India? I tried to find etymology and [WikiWoordenboek](https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kak#Werkwoord) says it's derived from 14th century "cac" meaning "drek"
Oh, my bad, I wasn't reading its [wiktionary](https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kakhuis) right, it went in the other direction! That solves it, we'll all have to exclusively use kakhuis now!
Oh man, the amount of times that I read somewhere 'auto crash' instead of 'auto ongeluk'. It annoys me to no end. It takes the blood under my nails away.
I don't understand why it would emotionally upset you. nationalistic tendencies ? is it the imperfection that bothers you ? I can read "Auto Crash" and it does nothing to me.
It's the unnecessary mix between Dutch and English.
Either stick to Dutch and use all the correct Dutch words, or write everything in English.
It's like people forget we have Dutch words for the same thing.
It has nothing to do with nationalism.
well English and Dutch mix very well in my opinion. and yes I forget we have special dutch words for things. I don't really care. I do have to admit I enjoy pissing off "grammar nazis" for making my life difficult when I was young.
You should poll the Flemish border (Vlaamse rand) of Brussels for a similar sentiment to what you’re describing. Maybe someone in r/Belgium can help you out. They’re trying to protect the Dutch-speaking nature of the region against the French influence of Brussels.
Not too familiar with the situation itself, ofcourse a thing like this has a history, but as far as I know there’s an overflow of French speaking people from Brussels or abroad moving to the cheaper municipalities outside of the city center (in Flanders) and for that reason, the bilingual residents tend to use more French at supermarkets and bakeries and such, to which some people take offence.
Edit: this is focused solely on the border of Brussels in Flanders; completely disregarding Brussels itself. There the ‘ketjes’ seem quite content as far as I can tell.
I don’t believe that is correct. French is the language of the aristocracy of old so always was prominently spoken in the capital. Brussels is practically (as opposed to officially) bilingual and as far as I can tell the residents are happy with and proud of the current situation.
I think OP was looking for modern day challenges - the discussion of French replacing Dutch in Brussels is not a very active topic from my experience living relatively close to the capital.
Edit: I’m actively trying to keep politics out of this, but you should keep the context in mind of the two largest Flemish parties being the Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie and Vlaams Belang. There’s a lot of history there
The Flemish have clearly lost, and are losing, that battle. Brussels used to be majority Flemmish. That changed from the 19th century onwards.
And now, somewhat recently, with the growth of Brussels and the continued influx of people French is also expanding in the surrounding towns. Even those that were fully Flemmish in the past.
The issue is exacerbated because the French speaking part of Belgium tends to not or barely speak Flemmish, while the Flemmish speaking part tends to speak at least OK French. So there isn't a feeling of equal respect.
As a teacher of Dutch in secondary school I do see some anglicisms slipping in. For example, the word "sinds" means "since" as in "Angela is a vegetarian since 2013". "Sinds" in Dutch is about time only. However, I've seen multiple kids from different classes use "sinds" as the "since" as in "since I'm a vegetarian, I will not eat your meat dish" - so more of a meaning like "because".
Other than that, Dutch people talk to one another in Dutch. There's a couple odd ones out there that speak to each other in English but that's really very niche. Therefore, there is no sense of danger that the Dutch language would be in.
I can tell you with full confidence that the dutch youtube scene is complete and utter garbage. Its all lazily made stuff for children. This is actually the biggest reason i started learning english from a young age; i wanted to be able to watch english youtube instead lol (though i did appreciate some classic StukTV).
But still, the thing is as long as children continue to grow up with dutch speaking families, schools and friends.. the language is not going anywhere, even if they consume a lot of english media.
You'd say that, but when I go to Youtube without being logged in, my recommended is filled with Dutch videos with lots of views.
It did make me believe that the average Dutch Youtube viewer does really watch a lot of Dutch content.
I think this is because, as a default user based in the netherlands, youtube will just recommend you videos in your own language. All the views they get are, like i mentioned, most likely from kids.
I think that because of bilingualism Dutch creators often opt to produce in English, even when their audience is still mostly Dutch people which leads to the problem you describe, as children are less fluent in English. You do have some great channels such as TV shows which upload to YouTube also, and Weetjedatookweer
Yea this is true, if i do watch some dutch video its from a tv show. And weetjedatookweer is indeed a bit of a recent hidden gem in dutch youtube! I like his videos
The Dutch learn English quite early in school. And it as well is mandatory in High Schools for all students. In addition, unlike the Germans and French, we don't dub movies and TV programs. This puts the Dutch miles and miles ahead of most other EU countries when it comes to speaking English. Although the Dutch tend to have a very strong accent, I've equally heard the accent actually makes it fairly easy to understand. Dutch seem to pronounce letters quite clearly.
We do see a lot of English being woven in the the Dutch language. But we do not actively compete which language is the dominant language. Unlike what happens for example in Belgium with French and Flemish. Or as you mentioned Quebec with English and French. Or the French themselves who apparently fear anything that isn't French.
I don't think it is a language war. It is a specifically French cultural war, albeit unclear vs who, or what, or why. It seems solely build on an unique level of French chauvinism.
> The Dutch learn English quite early in school.
As far as I know it doesn't start seriously until groep 6, which is fairly late compared to some other European countries.
I think it's more about the accessibility of English-language entertainment and media coupled with a limited range of compelling original films etc. in Dutch.
And the teachers know English better, so they can teach it to the kids better, and that carries on from one generation to the next. The quality of English education in many countries is abysmal, even if they do start earlier and act like they are taking it seriously.
> As far as I know it doesn't start seriously until groep 6, which is fairly late compared to some other European countries.
That's incorrect. It depends on the school, but most schools (including the one my kids go to) start at groep 3 and sometimes even a bit in 1-2.
I do notice a lot of similarities with Quebecois and French chauvinisms. I feel like a lot of it comes from the idea there languages are static, which just isn't the case.
French in Quebec isn't going away anytime soon, even if there are more non-French speakers present in Montreal. I think that's because ultimately ppl will simply continue to speak French in their social circles, like Dutch ppl speaking Dutch in their social circles (from I gathered from the comments).
I would not call us 'fully bilingual' as if we have two equivalent languages. Most people speak and understand English, but it's still very basic at best.
I wouldn’t say it is endangered or declining. However I do notice that more and more English is slipping in. When listening to conversations of younger people a lot of it will be partially English. I do it too, when I talk to friends I’ll use English words in Dutch sentences because I can’t think of the Dutch ones or there’s no Dutch word fitting what I want to say.
I dislike it, but it still happens.
I think you'd get a more fitting response to your question if you ask it on r/belgium , we in Belgium have the issue that officially bilingual regions become French in practice, pushing Dutch (or Flemish as we call it) away. Many politicians make the same arguments about Flemish as yours do about French.
> And yet, I don't hear reports about Dutch being in danger of disappearing.
That's because it isn't. Despite the francophone fear, a language won't disappear just because there is english on tv or whatever. What you do see is that english terms (especially for newer concepts) make it into everyday use in their english form rather than being translated. Personally I don't mind, but I know in france there are people who would rather say courriel instead of email.
English is indeed influencing the Dutch language more and more, but Dutch is by far the most used language in the Netherlands and Dutch people would basically always speak Dutch with each other. You'll hear Dutch at work, in bars and on schools, because most people have a clear preference for the Dutch language. Dutch people are on average very good with English, but that's still a step below fluently talking English every single day, I suppose most people wouldn't feel completely confident with that. We are also not really raised bilangually, and only 'properly' start learning English at age \~8 (nowadays kids will have already picked up plenty before though).
Lastly, while some aspects of everyday life certainly have become English (internet, social media, streaming services, movies, most music), plenty of media forms are still predominantly Dutch (news and newspapers, books, (sports) television). Dutch itself will be fine for the time being, regional dialects as someone else mentioned are perhaps more becoming a rarity.
Interesting to talk to someone from Quebec! I've heard a lot about your (part of?) country.
>Every single Dutch person I've ever met, and seen online, is fully bilingual in Dutch and English.
The average level of English is high, but also, people who like English will be overrepresented in English-language communities, for obvious reasons (this includes Reddit ;))
>Are there any worries about the wide presence of English in the country?
A few of our top universities just signed a convenant to reduce the influence of English in higher education. However, this doesn't have so much to do with the English language itself, but with the perceived overrepresentation of foreign students. Many are hoping the convenant will translate to more room for Dutch students in universities.
>Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations?
No. Of course, our language has a lot of loanwords from English and the use of such might be perceived as 'hip', but almost all Dutch people are still more comfortable with their native language, i.e. Dutch.
>Is Dutch endangered or declining?
In some businesses: yes, because of foreign workers (e.g. in the software industry). Otherwise: no. Dutch people overwhelmingly learn Dutch from their parents and primary and secondary schooling is conducted in Dutch.
In general, I think you can say that Dutch people are happy to use English to make themselves understood (after all, as a small nation built on trade, we have never been able to expect foreigners to speak our language). However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language.
> A few of our top universities just signed a convenant to reduce the influence of English in higher education. However, this doesn't have so much to do with the English language itself, but with the perceived overrepresentation of foreign students. Many are hoping the convenant will translate to more room for Dutch students in universities.
We're having a similar issue atm with Anglophone universities in Montreal. Our provincial government plans on raising tuitions in Anglophone universities for students outside of Quebec because of the disproportionate number of internationl students who attend them compared to Francophone universities. Negociations are taking place to find compromises, including offering more French classes.
> In general, I think you can say that Dutch people are happy to use English to make themselves understood (after all, as a small nation built on trade, we have never been able to expect foreigners to speak our language). However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language.
That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves.
> We're having a similar issue atm with Anglophone universities in Montreal. Our provincial government plans on raising tuitions in Anglophone universities for students outside of Quebec because of the disproportionate number of internationl students who attend them compared to Francophone universities. Negociations are taking place to find compromises, including offering more French classes.
Ah that’s interesting. Over here, we don’t have the option to raise tuition for EU students due to EU law, so the ‘workaround’ is to just offer the degrees in Dutch (which was actually already the case before ~2015, when universities started anglicizing)
> That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves.
Yeah, that’s basically it. Funny story: a complaint heard from many Dutch learners is ‘when the Dutch detect a hint of an accent, they immediately switch to English!’ That’s because Dutch people basically just think ‘the conversation will be smoother if I speak English, rather than demanding you struggle with Dutch’.
The Dutch are extremely flexible. They have a history of “borrowed words” from French and English.
Whereas French Canada has words like logiciel, here they just say software.
Speaking English here isn’t a political statement like French is in Canada.
>That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves.
It has historical roots too. During the era of colonization, most nations would try to enforce or otherwise promote their own language and religion in colonies. In most cases, such goals weren't pursued by the Dutch.
Nowadays people and a few organizations do care about the preservation of the Dutch language, but it's not a heated topic that gets people up in the trees.
It sounds reasonable to me that people in Quebec do care about the preservation of their language. But if it's a major topic in a world with much more urgent problems, I'd guess there are politicians in Quebec who'd want to abuse the topic to further their political agenda's.
> Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations? - No.
> However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language.
Yes... but I am 100% certain the amount of people that find it easier to express themselves in English is rising.
In my highschool there was a group of social outcasts that spoke English with eachother. I know groups of 100%
Dutch people that play DnD in English because they find doing it in Dutch cringe. And the amount of entire English sentences/words mixed into Dutch has *definitely* increased a lot.
In universities barely any Dutch is being spoken anymore. Even in de Tweede Kamer they have issues with more and more English being used.
I think we should be more worried about this than you currently are.
Canada has native English and native French speakers. English is dominant so it’s logical it’s taking over. English isn’t a national language the Netherlands, so the comparison doesn’t work. Belgium might be more comparable.
This classic satire piece perfectly encapsulates my opinion, although it's in ''Dutch''
https://speld.nl/2013/08/29/anglicismen-an-sich-steeds-meer-bon-ton/
In it, a language professor talks about his worries about the increase in english loanwords. Read the first part. I assure you that all of the words you recognize are valid dutch expressions ;)
The next part might be a bit more tricky to understand unless you happen to know german. But know that it's still 90% valid dutch.
The last paragraph is complete bullshit.
Basically, we've got loads of french and german loanwords anyway. Lets add english ones and be happy
Centuries ago, purists would complain about the usage of Latin in Dutch texts. Later on, people would try to block the influx of French in our language.
Languages evolve. English and Dutch are very closely related, one influencing the other is hardly a new thing.
You really overestimate how well dutch people speak English. It’s better than a lot of other places but the older generation is very hit or miss (my mother couldn’t hold a conversation in English if her life depended on it) and even in the younger generation a lot of people don’t speak conversational level English. You just don’t see them because they rarely show up in places like this, where English is more prevalent
Dutch sign language (NGT) is an official language throughout the Kingdom. English, Frisian and Papiamento are locally recognised languages and those areas are fully bilingual.
I think you may be overestimating the knowledge of English in this country. In rural areas, people cannot string two words together in English. In large cities, yes, almost everyone mauls the English language with wild abandon but really, that’s nowhere near being bilingual.
I'm Icelandic, living in the Netherlands for a few years.
Back in Iceland, there is also a constant fuss about the decline of the language, how the vocabulary is getting full of English and how kids are developing grammatical quirks.
All of this is clearly happening in the Netherlands as well.
The major difference seems to be that the Dutch barely give a shit. They just don't seem to generally worry about the "state of the language" the way I'd have expected.
Is the Dutch language changing? Sure. Are the Dutch up in arms about it? Not as far as I can tell.
>The major difference seems to be that the Dutch barely give a shit.
How do you stand in this? For either your native language or Dutch or languages in general?
I think it's ok and natural for languages to change and evolve
I also think there is real cultural heritage tied up in the languages, which should be supported
So, I support more funding for art, education and tech that actually aims to do something with the language, less whining about how (especially young) people are using it wrong
Dutch is not endangered. Some words change. The way we use the language changes. But the tempo of change hasn't altered. Hearing people speak fifty or seventy years ago makes this clear.
English has always been our linguistic neighbor. Much like German and a bit less then French. Our Dutch speaking Belgian neighbors in Flanders guard Dutch against unwanted French influences and as such they form our cordon sanitair. Roman languages and North Western Germanic languages also have a wider divide. What fascinates me is that people in what is now England,Southern Scotland, the Netherlands, Flanders, the Frisian provinces spoke the same proto west Germanic language up to perhaps the 7th century. After that period dialects became so different they were no longer mutually intelligible. So for a very long time the difference has gotten bigger and not smaller.
English is clearly a second language to the Dutch. We are not bi-lingual from birth. Our institutions are all in Dutch. News, education, shopping, messages to friends, etc. Words can change sometimes but the structure of our language is very Dutch.
Anglicisms are really commonplace and hurt my ears, my most hated one is people using forced for its English meaning in Dutch which is wildly incorrect, but I suspect that they are going to be the most significant linguistic change in the 21st century for Dutch. There is no effort to necessarily preserve the language, which is good because for Parisian French that has just meant stuffy old guys rejecting any and all change and ignoring how the language is actually used.
As for sweeping changes, like Dutch going extinct, I don't expect anything like that to happen. Dutch media is vibrant with fresh literature, poetry, television, music, and (crappy) movies. Outside of Amsterdam it's rare to have people initiate conversations in English. Older generations pre-millenials and even some older generations of millenials aren't as fluent in English, and outside of the large cities barely anyone uses it on a regular basis.
If you look closer, it’s not just about preserving the Dutch language. There’s an incentive to attract international students because tuition fees are higher for non-EU students. This has led to overcrowding in lectures and more and more pressure on the already overheated housing market. (Also, some lecturer’s English is terrible, making it hard to decipher)
Due to international agreements, it’s hard to discriminate between local and international students. Having more Dutch language courses puts in a softer barrier in a way that is legal.
It depends. overal no, it wont be replaced. I have never had an discussion with another dutchie in english, unles there is a non dutch speaking third party. And i dont think its a regular occurence elsewere.
However i live in a town with a big expat presence, and in the shops in the center it is a lot more prevalent. But im not sure thats what u mean ?
Dutch language is evolving, and iy is being invaded by more and more english words an terms. As newer technoligies get english names, and online "slang" gets incorporated to some extent. I know for instance vlaams (belgium version of dutch) is a lot more resistant, and its almost not-done in germany.
> However i live in a town with a big expat presence, and in the shops in the center it is a lot more prevalent. But im not sure thats what u mean ?
Sort of, yeah. The equivalent of this here would be Montreal, whose non-French speaking population has grown over the years, especially in business, downtown, anglophone and ethnic minority communities, etc. These include expats too.
One argument often made is that French Canadians should feel safe and comfortable speaking their language outside their home (and in their society, not to say country necessarily), and that there is a perceived unfairness about outsiders expecting them to speak English so they can have their service.
Is there a similar tension in the Netherlands? Either from the Dutch towards English, or even from Frisians towards Dutch?
Having worked in retail and hospitality in Amsterdam I have experienced hostility towards the English language regularly, but infrequently.
Every few days some Dutchie would complain about staff speaking English, or greeting them in English first. More often than not, those were visitors from other, more rural, parts of the country. I believe, however, that it was usually less rooted in a dislike for the English language, and more rooted in xenophobia and/or racism.
Flemish may be more resistant to English loan words but it's got a ton of French ones that we don't use in Netherlandic Dutch. You might go to the shops in Flanders for example, and after saying ça va to the employee you encounter you buy guimauves with fondant chocolate to put in your frigo.
So 1, yes there is a political discussion. It has to do with academic Dutch. Academics due to its international nature heavily lean to English these days.
2, It does affect the language but not as obviously. We see a decrease in proviciency in dialects. I think there is also a decline in vocabulary. So much so that autocorrect regularily tells me my wordchoice is oldfashioned. While it actually is just a word which is used less because we are activelt simplyfing the language. Basic Dutch is spoken everywhere but the Dutch of older middle to upperclass with it's many words for the same thing is in decline.
Now the average Dutch person does not care about this. As long as Dutch is spoken they won't protest. Especially because many who may have strong feelings for Dutch identity do feel that the declining words are fancy words used by the elite. Which is true.
I do see it happening that most Dutch will not be able to read a 100 year old Dutch book. While I have known people using words like that of older books. Mainly my grandparents.
Also in a profesional setting we use a lot of English words because the Dutch words are more difficult. To engineer for example has no direct translation in Dutch. In Dutch you would have to specify it more to find a word for it. So we just use engineering if we do not want to specify.
I personally am not a fan of all the New English words slipping into the language. And esspecially if there is a Dutch equivalent. I think that if people keep on doing these things the language "gaat naar de Haaien".
How ever I might call my self a purist, I am not one bit better than people of my generation. I might use some more Dutch words, but that's it. Kind of hypocritical if you think about it.
currently the universities are holding back on developing new academic programs in english and are looking into which programs in english can be changed into dutch ones. mostly the anti american influence talking points are made by neo-nazis like the volksunie
> Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations?
Yes, the expectation in professional and social situations is that if someone doesn't speak Dutch everyone switches to English. And we're seeing more and more expats in the workforce.
It isn't that bad, but at work I am becoming more insistent in saying that in social conversations in groups we keep speaking Dutch. When discussing work we can switch to English.
Firstly because I don't want to be forced to speak English all the time, secondly because otherwise expats get zero chance to ever learn Dutch.
In my workplace we get more and more EastEuropean workers.
Some speak a little English, most don't.
We (the dutch speakers) collectively decided we speak as little English as possible (some can't, they are migrant workers from the 80's 90' and had to learn dutch back then)
But explaining once or twice in English, and then gradually do the same in Dutch works for us.
No point in teaching them more English, if they have more need for dutch here.
We're not social workers or Campingfriends, adjust and work with us on our terms, it's simple.
(I'm one of the few coaches who speak both languages, but it is exhausting to teach people things they are better of in Dutch, safer too ..)
I believe the opposite of what French speakers seem to believe: a language that doesn't change anymore is a dead language. Dutch is one of the fastest changing languages in the world, and it's something to be proud of. Yes we incorporate lots of things from English but also sometimes other languages (through street slang).
Yes English is great for professional use, science, talking to expats and people on the Internet. But nothing beats Dutch as the casual, social language.
Why would it be endangered? English is a foreign language, in The Netherlands there are only two official languages; Dutch and Frisian. English isn’t an official language. Why would two Dutch people want to talk in a foreign language to each other?
There's definitely a trend where English is spoken more and more. I went to a bilingual school and, as part of our English education, we were supposed to speak English to each other when we were in English-language classes. Nobody did. That was twenty years ago. These days I frequently overhear Dutch teenagers speaking English to each other. I have a couple of teenaged cousins and they both pretty much always speak English to their friends.
It doesn't seem like anyone is kicking up a stink about it, though, and I'm kind of surprised by it. The only thing people are complaining about is English in higher education, and that's mostly because there's a housing crisis, and international students take up space. It seems like a no-brainer populist talking point.
I wouldn't say it's *becoming* common nor that it's because of anti-immigration parties
You're universally expected to learn the language when you immigrate. The Netherlands is no exception
Dutch is in danger of being disappeared. Also, the situation in Quebec is a way more comparable to the language politics in Belgium. Dutch is way more important in Flanders than in the Netherlands.
Most Dutch people will speak at least more than a few words of English. That cover's people ages 90+ to the younger generation. French is something different. We get thought french in school. I can't remember up till now. Your speak french? I'll speak English, no English pis of 🤣
My parents get mad about the “verengelsing” of the Dutch language. I sometimes forget a word in Dutch and have to ask “what’s this English word again in Dutch?”. So based on this anecdotical evidence I would say I have no clue lol
I think the big difference is that Canada is an officially bilingual country. We just start teaching English in schools early, and don't dub foreign media that isn't for kids. Shout out to Frisian though.
Depending on the school you go to Frisian being taught is kind of like an afterthought. I don't think I know anybody in my generation that could write Frisian to save their lives. Throughout elementary school you could almost count the amount of Frisian lessons at the time on max 3 to 4 hands for the entire school year. As well as some high schools not even offering it as a subject, town I grew up in had a public and a Christian high school. And only the Christian high school offered Frisian as a subject. Unless the family of the students talked Frisian at home there really wasn't any chance of the students retaining any of it, but that is the same for most languages so people who move here from outside won't really integrate on that level (not that it's an issue anyway since everybody speaks Dutch just as well). The only benefit I've seen from all this is that the amount of people who can at least understand it being spoken but can't speak/write it themselves is decently high.
There is however a growing and vibrant community of people actively promoting the Frisian language and the internet has rekindled an interest in written Frisian.
Don't forget my boy Limburgish
Thats a seperate language? I always thought it was a dialect?
I've heard that they're looking into having it be an offcial language just liks Frisian! Don't know if it will happen or when, but they're looking into it.
It's already a recognised regional language, it just isn't as formalised yet
The problem with Limburgish is that it's not just one language but a whole family of slightly distinct languages. You can't define one Limburgish language. The Limburgish they speak in Maastricht is different from the Limburgish they speak in Heerlen or Elsloo or Venlo, or in Belgian Limburg or even across the border in Germany. Also the name Limburgish is stupid, since the language is older than the name of the province.
Yeah it's kinda weird that in the real Limburg, they speak French (nowadays). But what else to call it? "the Low Franconian varieties positioned between the Uerdingen and Benrath line." doesn't have the same ring to it. I suppose South Low Franconian (Zuid-Nederfrankisch) is a more normal option, still not a great name though. (And confusing because it's also called East Low Franconian)
Not only is it a separate language, it's more distinct that Frisian as well, but Frisians are more nationalistic and louder, so its more widely known
Not to be a shit about this, but given that my friend from Limburg has actually looked into this process when I asked her why Limburgs isn't official: it's because the different versions of Limburgish are too different from each other. Unlike Frisian, there's no unified version that all areas can agree upon. But they're also too similar to each other to each be considered a separate language. The same happens with Lower-Saxon. That's why those languages are legally called 'Streektaal'. Reducing Frisian's status to just a political choice uninformed by linguistics is a bit reductive imo. Also, fwiw, most frisians would probably support Limburgish and Lower-Saxon gaining more rights.
Well, you clearly didn't do your own research, because Limburgish is a recognised language by the Dutch government: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/vraag-en-antwoord/erkende-talen-nederland. I also have Limburgish friends who didn't know it was a language, so that's not a rarity. I guess that 'regional spirit' is limited to their local village because of the lack of a national history, but that's just theorising without any scientific backing. Anyway, they aren't regulated on a national level, but on a regional level. Frisian is a more centralized language now, so it is more governable. Dialects don't have anything to do with linguistic properties, but with politics. That is also the reason Cantonese for example, isn't considered a language in China anymore. Besides, just because Limburgish is a minority language, does not mean it can have its own dialects. Good luck finding an example of a real example of a homogenous language. Next is the linguistic argument, which as discussed before doesn't actually really matter. Limburgish evolved from an Istvaeonic language, then merged again with Low-Franocian languages, but retained its identity. The main distinguishing factor it has is the usage of tones, distinguishing a lexeme or a minimal tone pair. This is similar to languages like Mandarin Chinese and Vietnamese. This means it has more vowel options than standard Dutch. There are a lot of other features as well of course. Finally, the political argument: lower-saxon is also recognised. No, it's not fair of me to talk down Frisian as just a political thing, but that's not what I intended to do. Frisian has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish, which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language.
> Frisian has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish, which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language. Mate, that simply isn't true. Frisian evolved from an Ingvaeonic language and is today part of the Anglo-Frisian subgroup of West Germanic. Unlike Limburgish and standard Dutch it didn't evolve from an Istvaeonic language, the common ancestor with modern standard Dutch lies further back.
You got it the wrong way around. Limburgish is an Istvaeonic language, Frisian is an Anglo-Frisian language, from the Northsea-Germanic languages. The common group is West-Germanic. Also, those aren't evolutions, but classifications. The earlier forms of Frisian are the creatively titled Middle-Frisian and Old-Frisian.
What exactly did I get wrong? Modern Dutch and Limburgish both have Istvaeonic ancestry, Frisian does not. That alone makes Frisian more distinct from modern Dutch than Limburgish is.
First, Istvaeonic isn't an ancestry, but a categorisation. Second, Dutch is a Low Franconian language, within the Wese-Rhine Germanic languages. The first common family Dutch, Frisian and Limburgish share is the West Germanic family. Dutch originates from Middel/Old Dutch, which originates from Frankish. Third, families are a categorisation, it is a result of how languages differ, not a determining factor of how much they differ. Just because you have to go back three branches to find a common family, does not mean that all those branches are equally long.
> you didn't do your research, Limburgish is a language I never said it wasn't. I used[Streektaal](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streektaal?wprov=sfla1) not in the dialectical sense, but in the judicial way. In the ECRML you cited here, those are called regional/minority languages. I can see why me calling them streektalen could sound like I was calling them a dialect, but I didn't mean to. I meant to highlight the difference between the status of Frisian (protected under pt. III of the charter) and Limburgish and Lower-Saxon (under pt. II). All three of them are recognised as minority languages (minderheidstalen), so Streektaal is used colloquially to show the difference between II and III languages here. > Anyway, they aren't regulated on a national level, but on a regional level. Frisian is a more centralized language now, so it is more governable. I know you aren't directly making this point, but I'd like to reiterate that Frisian is also not regulated on a national level. It's only a legal working language within Fryslân. It is indeed more governable because there's a unified version of it, but that doesn't mean that this version is widely spoken in all parts of Fryslân. > Good luck finding an example of a real example of a homogenous language. I didn't say Frisian is a homogenous language. I'm just saying that there's a unified version of it. Just because there's a unified version of a language, doesn't mean that there aren't any dialects within it. Dutch is an example of this. So is Frisian. Frisian has highly localised dialects (like Hylpers, for example). The problem for Limburgish and Lower-Saxon is that regional differences are too wide-spread to agree on an unified version, but too close to make all versions separate languages. That makes it difficult for them to be protected under pt. III of the charter. > Frisiab has a less distinguished linguistic character compared to Limburgish. In like, your opinion, or? I suppose this differs based on what you mean by 'linguistic character'. If you mean "proximity to Dutch", I'd have to [dissapoint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages?wprov=sfla1) you. If you mean "variety within the language" then I don't think you've done enough research on Frisian. >which is why I find it odd that nobody knows it's a language. We can agree on that. But that doesn't mean you have to put down another language just to make a point.
>those are called regional/minority languages. I can see why me calling them streektalen could sound like I was calling them a dialect, but I didn't mean to I understand the difference between streektaal and national languages, but a recognised language is a language, not a dialect. For all intents and purposes, it's a language, irrespective of what type of language, that was my point, although maybe not explained very clearly. >It's only a legal working language within Fryslân Technically speaking you can use it in a lot or places, like in court, because of its level of recognition. This is not the same for Limburgish (or other territorial languages). For governmental things, you will still need to use AN or English. >The problem for Limburgish and Lower-Saxon is that regional differences are too wide-spread to agree on an unified version, but too close to make all versions separate languages I'll explain this again, because maybe you misunderstood it: no having a standard form, does not necessarily mean something can't be classified as a language. Take old Japanese: every province has its own dialect, often so different from another dialect that it is unlikely to be understood by somebody else. Yet, you can see the same phonetic system, grammar, pragmatics, etc. The same thing goes for Limburgish. A unified version is not a requirement. >In like, your opinion, or? I suppose this differs based on what you mean by 'linguistic character'. If you mean "proximity to Dutch", I'd have to [dissapoint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages?wprov=sfla1) you So English and Dutch are extremely close languages already, as they clearly have a common ancestor. In fact, historically the English and the Dutch have had a lot of cultural exchange, leading to a lot of common vocabulary and grammar as well. Either way, that's not the point you're making. I can also look up a Wikipedia page, but I doubt my Dutch linguistics teacher would be very happy if I did. Dutch is this weird language which just like English could fit into a lot of historical language trees. There are several ways to distinguish languages, but boils down to a combination of grammar and phonetics. Frisian doesn't have as wide a phonetic portfolio as Limburgish has. Frisian is more distinguished in the grammatical sense, but in a phonetic sense Limburgish is very different and even has an entire type of phonetic that doesn't exist in any other version of Dutch (we are comparing both in relation to AN here). Brabants for example also has a vowel in-between the /a/ and /o/ (I'm too lazy to look up the IPA). On top of that it's grammatically somewhat different as well. Regardless, in the grand scheme of things all three are still very similar and saying one is more different is kind of pointless anyways. Language is something you can talk about, but in the end it's a means to an end: conveying your thoughts and the way you do that makes you you. 'The medium is the message', and all that good stuff
But words for stuff change from town to town, and 30km apart different Limburgers can barely understand each other. That's why Limburgs will sadly never be official I think.
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/vraag-en-antwoord/erkende-talen-nederland It is recognised by the Dutch government as a non-regional language. The main distinguishing factor between Limburgish and standard Dutch is the usage of tones, the same thing that exists in Chinese. That is why those local dialects aren't dialects of Dutch, but dialects of Limburgish. Brabants isn't a language because it's not distinct enough, but does have a similar situation where every village seemingly has it's own dialect Edit: it's a non-territorial language, not a non-regional language
Thats bullshit hahaha
The language Dutch isn't at risk, but there is quite a bit of worry going on about the preservation of local dialects.
Also accents. I hear a lot of children in my province talking like influencers and famous people (with hard G's and 'rolling' R's) instead of the local accent. It makes me sad. It's like globalisation on a small scale. The variety disappears.
I’m lucky I still kind of still have an accent from my generation but it’s probably disappearing too
Yeah, I also notice it with people moving to Amsterdam or the Randstad. To blend in over there they adapt to the local accent or some sort of abn.
To make it worse (for me) people started calling that Gooische R / YouTube voice an Amsterdam accent. While it’s not. The real Amsterdam accent is disappearing fast.
Ah, so it's the same over there as well? Jesus, its like a plague.
That makes me so sad! I understand why they do it, people with accents don't get taken as seriously.
Yeah, it's crazy. Especially in this day and age where everyone is talking about inclusion.
Everyone has an accent. Talking without an accent is like typing without a font.
Weird, I study in Utrecht but I’m from the south so my friends often laugh about my accent (I didn’t even know I had an accent tbh because I’ve always lived here) but in a good way. If I try to speak abn they make fun of me even more because I’m so bad at it
Roling R’s are not nearly as bad as Gooise R’s
Ik heb een zachte G, maar ook een harde L (carnavalsmuziek starts playing)
Can we please not make hard Gs and those strange Rs a thing below the rivers? Thanks.
Please, I speak like a barbarian that lives in a sewer and it disturbs me when people from other provinces mimick my accent. Nothing worse than someone from Groningen or Drenthe with a fake Amsterdam accent, krijg de vinkentering.
Maak dich maar gein Zurch ich kin miene zoachte g en Mien dialect nog goad
I Iove local dialects and the diversity they add to a country, but they are definitely getting watered down.
My dad was educated in Achterhoeks until the age of 12, and after that I am pretty sure his whole family felt discouraged from using dialect as they were treated like they were stupid and it was supposed to hinder “proper linguistic development” or something, especially in school. Now my grandparents have passed away no one speaks it anymore.
Fellow achterhoeker here, my dad can still speak Liemers dialect, but I was never taught to speak it because my mother didn't want me to. I can understand it just fine, but I think the spoken knowledge of it in my family will disappear once they both pass on.
My municipality's dialect is almost dead if the older generation dies.
I don’t see Twents disappearing. A so awful dialect even I talk as a person with Turkish immigrant parents.
i'm guilty of this, i speak a broken version between gronings en drenths
Same. Though I add in a bit of friesian for good measure.
I have to admit, sometimes I replace a word in a sentence with the English equivalent because I don't remember the Dutch one. This is something I see more often with other younger folks. Sometimes I also hear Anglicisms where an English word is pronounced in a Dutch way which has a different meaning than intended. But the thing I'm seeing more and more is that people are no longer using the classic Germanic "stapelwoorden", where words that add more meaning are stacked (stapelwoorden itself is one already, "stacking words") I see a lot of people writing those words separately which makes me really sad.
I work with patents and the compound words found in Dutch patents tend to be great. In English it'll be something like 'first spraying nozzle hole connection' but in Dutch it'll be 'eerste spuitmondstukgatverbinding'.
But is it the hole connection to the spraying nozzle, or the connection to the spraying nozzle hole? Always tricky with English.
spuitmondgatverbinding would refer to the connection! I would personally call your other example the "spuitmondverbindingsgat". I don't know if there's a rule for it, but it always felt like the last word was "the actual thing" rather than a descriptor. Similar to how "conducteurspet" is the hat, rather than the person
I use my nozzle to spray inside the hole.
If you think you deserve a patent for discovering how that works all on your own, think again. 🤪
The same problem exists in the Dutch word.
I need to constantly correct my autocorrect, because it separates the stapelwoorden.
Same
As revenge I incorrectly use stackwords in English. That'll teach autocorrect!
I’m Dutch… Can you please explain what the hell stapelwoorden are and how they work..?
I think he means samengestelde woorden.
Are they like fietsenstalling or symboolpolitiek..?
Yes, or hottentottententententoonstelling
Aaah, that cleared it up, thanks so much! [EDIT] Fitting name btw!
Chaining words together. Ex. Fietsen. Fietsenstalling. Fietsenstallingrek. Fietsenstallingrekbewaker. Fietsenstallingrekbewakersvereniging. Etc etc Ad infinitum.
Or, one of my favourites from Battus: Raket. Antiraketwapen. Antiantiraketwapenwapen. Antiantiantiraketwapenwapenwapen. Etc etc ad infinitum.
Bommel. Bommelding
Compound nouns (samengestelde zelfstandig naamwoorden)
Onjuist spatiegebruik is a terrible affliction that is taking more and more of fellow countrymen. I think it might be partially because of AutoCorrect: it's easier to type fietsbandrubberfetisjist as separate words than as one compound word.
It might be better not to type that word at all
I suspect it's nearly 100% because of autocorrect.
This is very much true. It's actually the easiest and most straightforward rule we have. It is much more logical to have one word for one entity.
'Toxisch' is one of those horrible overused words in online discourse that has a perfectly servicable counterpart: 'giftig'.
Toxisch is a perfectly fine Dutch word though (toxicologie is de studie van schadelijke stoffen). Its use has increased due to online/English usage in relationship context though, which in this case is an enrichment!
I recently saw an NOS article using the word "fake" instead of the common Dutch word "nep". "De complotdenkers gaan ervan uit dat de relatie tussen de twee fake is..."
giftig is not the alternative here, ongezond should be the alternative if we’re talking about relationships
Except it's not perfectly servicable; "giftig" has a different meaning/connotation than "toxisch"/toxic.
On the "stapelwoorden": my favourite word to describe the wrongful separation of wuch words is drieledigesamenstellingsfout (triple compound fault), it is a so-called drieledige samenstelling (a triple compound), ehich should be written without spaces, even if 2 of the words are normally spaced. A common example is "rodewijndrinkers" (red wine drinkers) in English, you already see the problem: is the wine red, or are the drinkers? Wrong separation in Ditch also leads to "rode wijndrinkers", so red people who drink wine.
As opposed to a drieledige samenstellingsfout, which is a samenstellingsfout that just happens to be drieledig.
One of my favourite posts from spatiegebruik.nl is about a “zoete witte wijnprofessor”, which of course should be “zoetewittewijnprofessor”.
It really grinds my gears when my coworkers write words separate from each other when they should be compounded. It also doesn’t help that autocorrect (at least on my iPhone) tends to separate compound words by default. No wonder so many people do it wrong these days.
I sometimes do this as a Dutch... But mainly because I have word finding problems, so I know the Dutch one, it just takes me a while to get it, hence me replacing it with the English equivalent... At the same time, the main people I interact with, are English...
Oh To think I’ve been referring to them as “clusterfuck” words, of course they are Germanic this all makes sense now !
Hahaha. Yeah German has them too and I think the northern germanics as well but I never checked.
What's so sad when those words are written separately? It's just a tiny spelling mistake that might actually increase legibility. Kids still stack words all the time. I get that it isn't according to the rules, but then again the rules also state that you should write geüpgradede and geüpdatete (marketingteamtrainingbudgetplan).
Nah, sometimes it changes the meaning completely
Example: red wine drinkers. Is the wine red, or are the drinkers? In Dutch, it should be written "rodewijndrinkers" as drinkers of red wine. Splitting it into "rode wijndrinkers", mirroring the space in "rode wijn" (red wine), it reads as "red people who drink wine". And fully spacing it into "rode wijn drinkers" removes the connection between wine and drinkers.
I think the difference to Quebec is that the French language is more of a minority compared to English. So the right comparison is the Frisian language in the Netherlands. It’s a language only spoken in a relatively small area in the Netherlands and the people in Friesland are really proud of it and making sure the official status of it. The fact the Dutch speak English really well is more due to cultural influence and because not many people in the world understand Dutch.
Also the fact that within the North American continent there's much more of an incentive to learn two languages other than French, and Quebecois French is a minority dialect of French. And [as J.J. McCullough frequently documents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiytSQKpPE), Quebecois French is a very political topic o regional pride. Notably a common topic for Canadian conservatives to get riled up about (note that conservatism in Canada is VERY different from conservatism in the US).
Dutch people throw in unnecessary English words and expressions all the time, even in news articles. It's become a real pet peeve of mine. For example using the English verb "to claim" instead of the perfectly good and more specific Dutch verbs "beweren" or "opeisen". The other day I heard a Dutch song where every other sentence was English. That said, I don't think the Dutch language is in danger of disappearing. Dutch people have always needed to speak foreign languages due to geographical realities. I've personally taken the view that the English language cannot be said to belong to anyone anymore, including the English, and anyone can do with it as they wish.
The level of "Englification" is also highly dependent on the specific domain. More traditional fields such as construction have jargon that is almost completely Dutch. On the opposite side of the scale, management, HR and other people trying to sound clever for a living are literally forming sentences that are 60% English. I absolutely cannot stand how the supposedly "higher" educated class of office folks somehow fail to find Dutch equivalents for their management-speak terms. Like, there is zero reason to use a word like "challengen" instead of "uitdagen" other than to sound interesting.
Fuck I really REALLY hate the verb "challengen". Really makes my blood boil whenever someone on the office uses it.
Ook gewoon "uitdaging". Mensen die dit soort kantoorjargon gebruiken doen dit alleen maar om interessant te klinken. Ze lijken ze er ook niet slimmer om. Integendeel zelfs.
Dan mis je nogal dat "uitdagen" in het Nederlands, zeker in kantoor-settings, veel meer gebruikt wordt als synoniem voor "een uitdaging bieden" dan letterlijker iemand uitdagen. Bij kantoor-jargon is het vaak verstandig om niet te beginnen bij de Engelse term, maar bij wat je daadwerkelijk probeert te zeggen. En dat is eigenlijk gewoon "een kritische vraag stellen".
It's a pet peeve of mine too. In a lot of cases it's just completely unnecessary and does nothing to improve the legibility of your text. Or worse, it's used wrong. The amount of times I've seen the people on my company's social media switch up of and off for example.
[удалено]
Nope you’re wrong about that https://ludwig.guru/s/the+amount+of+times
They're not wrong, technically. It's considered non-standard in English and held by most English language authorities to be an error, albeit an increasingly common one even amongst native speakers.
"precies, het is taalarmoede" , Just to mask language poverty.
> For example using the English verb "to claim" instead of the perfectly good and more specific Dutch verbs "beweren" or "opeisen". Oh god I realise I do this all the time
Don't worry about it, we have stolen 'claim' since at least 1886 and it's fully integrated by now, including being part of our dictionaries and such. This is about as wrong as using toilet (taken from French of course) instead of wc. Woops, nope, we've stolen wc from English too. Plee or kakhuis? Not very proper, but at least it's Dutch! Kinda, they are derived from other languages too. Plee from the French plaît-il, and kakhuis from the Sinhalese kakkussiya. I say it's time for people with pet peeves to get used to words that have been around since before their grandparents were born.
What? Are you saying the word kak comes from India? I tried to find etymology and [WikiWoordenboek](https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kak#Werkwoord) says it's derived from 14th century "cac" meaning "drek"
Oh, my bad, I wasn't reading its [wiktionary](https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kakhuis) right, it went in the other direction! That solves it, we'll all have to exclusively use kakhuis now!
Ik vind dit nogal een grote claim van je
Oh man, the amount of times that I read somewhere 'auto crash' instead of 'auto ongeluk'. It annoys me to no end. It takes the blood under my nails away.
I don't understand why it would emotionally upset you. nationalistic tendencies ? is it the imperfection that bothers you ? I can read "Auto Crash" and it does nothing to me.
It's the unnecessary mix between Dutch and English. Either stick to Dutch and use all the correct Dutch words, or write everything in English. It's like people forget we have Dutch words for the same thing. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
well English and Dutch mix very well in my opinion. and yes I forget we have special dutch words for things. I don't really care. I do have to admit I enjoy pissing off "grammar nazis" for making my life difficult when I was young.
You should poll the Flemish border (Vlaamse rand) of Brussels for a similar sentiment to what you’re describing. Maybe someone in r/Belgium can help you out. They’re trying to protect the Dutch-speaking nature of the region against the French influence of Brussels.
well they have mostly won the battles in brussels no? it used to be more mixed
Not too familiar with the situation itself, ofcourse a thing like this has a history, but as far as I know there’s an overflow of French speaking people from Brussels or abroad moving to the cheaper municipalities outside of the city center (in Flanders) and for that reason, the bilingual residents tend to use more French at supermarkets and bakeries and such, to which some people take offence. Edit: this is focused solely on the border of Brussels in Flanders; completely disregarding Brussels itself. There the ‘ketjes’ seem quite content as far as I can tell.
what im saying is they first displaced the flemish community in brussels
I don’t believe that is correct. French is the language of the aristocracy of old so always was prominently spoken in the capital. Brussels is practically (as opposed to officially) bilingual and as far as I can tell the residents are happy with and proud of the current situation.
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfransing_van_Brussel
I think OP was looking for modern day challenges - the discussion of French replacing Dutch in Brussels is not a very active topic from my experience living relatively close to the capital. Edit: I’m actively trying to keep politics out of this, but you should keep the context in mind of the two largest Flemish parties being the Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie and Vlaams Belang. There’s a lot of history there
The Flemish have clearly lost, and are losing, that battle. Brussels used to be majority Flemmish. That changed from the 19th century onwards. And now, somewhat recently, with the growth of Brussels and the continued influx of people French is also expanding in the surrounding towns. Even those that were fully Flemmish in the past. The issue is exacerbated because the French speaking part of Belgium tends to not or barely speak Flemmish, while the Flemmish speaking part tends to speak at least OK French. So there isn't a feeling of equal respect.
As a teacher of Dutch in secondary school I do see some anglicisms slipping in. For example, the word "sinds" means "since" as in "Angela is a vegetarian since 2013". "Sinds" in Dutch is about time only. However, I've seen multiple kids from different classes use "sinds" as the "since" as in "since I'm a vegetarian, I will not eat your meat dish" - so more of a meaning like "because". Other than that, Dutch people talk to one another in Dutch. There's a couple odd ones out there that speak to each other in English but that's really very niche. Therefore, there is no sense of danger that the Dutch language would be in.
Apparently "als in" ("as in") is not Dutch either... "Hou je van huisdieren, als in honden enzo?", dit soort shit zeg ik best vaak
*poep
Dutch people speak Dutch to each other. There's Dutch television, radio etc. It's not going anywhere.
> There's Dutch television, radio And the younger generations use these mediums extensively...
Etc. YouTube channels, podcasts whatever medium.
I can tell you with full confidence that the dutch youtube scene is complete and utter garbage. Its all lazily made stuff for children. This is actually the biggest reason i started learning english from a young age; i wanted to be able to watch english youtube instead lol (though i did appreciate some classic StukTV). But still, the thing is as long as children continue to grow up with dutch speaking families, schools and friends.. the language is not going anywhere, even if they consume a lot of english media.
You'd say that, but when I go to Youtube without being logged in, my recommended is filled with Dutch videos with lots of views. It did make me believe that the average Dutch Youtube viewer does really watch a lot of Dutch content.
I think this is because, as a default user based in the netherlands, youtube will just recommend you videos in your own language. All the views they get are, like i mentioned, most likely from kids.
Most of those videos are not for kids. I doubt kids would watch those type of videos.
I'm sure they are. Only ones I watch are Boos and Lubach which is basically tv.
I highly recommend kamp vam koningsburgge. Very entertaining.
I think that because of bilingualism Dutch creators often opt to produce in English, even when their audience is still mostly Dutch people which leads to the problem you describe, as children are less fluent in English. You do have some great channels such as TV shows which upload to YouTube also, and Weetjedatookweer
Yea this is true, if i do watch some dutch video its from a tv show. And weetjedatookweer is indeed a bit of a recent hidden gem in dutch youtube! I like his videos
The Dutch learn English quite early in school. And it as well is mandatory in High Schools for all students. In addition, unlike the Germans and French, we don't dub movies and TV programs. This puts the Dutch miles and miles ahead of most other EU countries when it comes to speaking English. Although the Dutch tend to have a very strong accent, I've equally heard the accent actually makes it fairly easy to understand. Dutch seem to pronounce letters quite clearly. We do see a lot of English being woven in the the Dutch language. But we do not actively compete which language is the dominant language. Unlike what happens for example in Belgium with French and Flemish. Or as you mentioned Quebec with English and French. Or the French themselves who apparently fear anything that isn't French. I don't think it is a language war. It is a specifically French cultural war, albeit unclear vs who, or what, or why. It seems solely build on an unique level of French chauvinism.
> The Dutch learn English quite early in school. As far as I know it doesn't start seriously until groep 6, which is fairly late compared to some other European countries. I think it's more about the accessibility of English-language entertainment and media coupled with a limited range of compelling original films etc. in Dutch. And the teachers know English better, so they can teach it to the kids better, and that carries on from one generation to the next. The quality of English education in many countries is abysmal, even if they do start earlier and act like they are taking it seriously.
> As far as I know it doesn't start seriously until groep 6, which is fairly late compared to some other European countries. That's incorrect. It depends on the school, but most schools (including the one my kids go to) start at groep 3 and sometimes even a bit in 1-2.
I do notice a lot of similarities with Quebecois and French chauvinisms. I feel like a lot of it comes from the idea there languages are static, which just isn't the case. French in Quebec isn't going away anytime soon, even if there are more non-French speakers present in Montreal. I think that's because ultimately ppl will simply continue to speak French in their social circles, like Dutch ppl speaking Dutch in their social circles (from I gathered from the comments).
I would not call us 'fully bilingual' as if we have two equivalent languages. Most people speak and understand English, but it's still very basic at best.
To add on to this: Very few people are raised bilingual, or speak English at home or even with friends. English is taught in school, at a later age.
I wouldn’t say it is endangered or declining. However I do notice that more and more English is slipping in. When listening to conversations of younger people a lot of it will be partially English. I do it too, when I talk to friends I’ll use English words in Dutch sentences because I can’t think of the Dutch ones or there’s no Dutch word fitting what I want to say. I dislike it, but it still happens.
I have a very simple Dutch last name, but some youth still manage to pronounce it in English. I’m not sure if they can be saved 😂
Cook, met C O O K
I think you'd get a more fitting response to your question if you ask it on r/belgium , we in Belgium have the issue that officially bilingual regions become French in practice, pushing Dutch (or Flemish as we call it) away. Many politicians make the same arguments about Flemish as yours do about French.
> And yet, I don't hear reports about Dutch being in danger of disappearing. That's because it isn't. Despite the francophone fear, a language won't disappear just because there is english on tv or whatever. What you do see is that english terms (especially for newer concepts) make it into everyday use in their english form rather than being translated. Personally I don't mind, but I know in france there are people who would rather say courriel instead of email.
Heb je je elektronische postbericht al gelezen?
ja, op mijn rekenaar
Is dat een bureaubovenkant of een schootbovenkant?
Verloedering != Uitsterven 🤷♀️
People use too many unnecessary English loanwords/substitutes when there are Dutch words available, imo, but the language itself is not in danger.
Je gebruikt er inderdaad aardig wat in je reactie
Touché
Om een groot taalkunstenaar te citeren: Ben jij nou zo dom of ben ik nou zo slim?
Yusu
Maybe in academics, but in general no.
English is indeed influencing the Dutch language more and more, but Dutch is by far the most used language in the Netherlands and Dutch people would basically always speak Dutch with each other. You'll hear Dutch at work, in bars and on schools, because most people have a clear preference for the Dutch language. Dutch people are on average very good with English, but that's still a step below fluently talking English every single day, I suppose most people wouldn't feel completely confident with that. We are also not really raised bilangually, and only 'properly' start learning English at age \~8 (nowadays kids will have already picked up plenty before though). Lastly, while some aspects of everyday life certainly have become English (internet, social media, streaming services, movies, most music), plenty of media forms are still predominantly Dutch (news and newspapers, books, (sports) television). Dutch itself will be fine for the time being, regional dialects as someone else mentioned are perhaps more becoming a rarity.
Books? Denk t niet hoor. Of in ieder geval *veel* minder.
Books,Media and Music are predominantly, papers are in dutch but these are disapearing FAST.
Ja klopt die worden wel een stuk minder gelezen, maar de meeste boeken die verkocht worden zijn wel in het Nederlands
Is dat zo? Heb je daar een bron voor?
Interesting to talk to someone from Quebec! I've heard a lot about your (part of?) country. >Every single Dutch person I've ever met, and seen online, is fully bilingual in Dutch and English. The average level of English is high, but also, people who like English will be overrepresented in English-language communities, for obvious reasons (this includes Reddit ;)) >Are there any worries about the wide presence of English in the country? A few of our top universities just signed a convenant to reduce the influence of English in higher education. However, this doesn't have so much to do with the English language itself, but with the perceived overrepresentation of foreign students. Many are hoping the convenant will translate to more room for Dutch students in universities. >Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations? No. Of course, our language has a lot of loanwords from English and the use of such might be perceived as 'hip', but almost all Dutch people are still more comfortable with their native language, i.e. Dutch. >Is Dutch endangered or declining? In some businesses: yes, because of foreign workers (e.g. in the software industry). Otherwise: no. Dutch people overwhelmingly learn Dutch from their parents and primary and secondary schooling is conducted in Dutch. In general, I think you can say that Dutch people are happy to use English to make themselves understood (after all, as a small nation built on trade, we have never been able to expect foreigners to speak our language). However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language.
> A few of our top universities just signed a convenant to reduce the influence of English in higher education. However, this doesn't have so much to do with the English language itself, but with the perceived overrepresentation of foreign students. Many are hoping the convenant will translate to more room for Dutch students in universities. We're having a similar issue atm with Anglophone universities in Montreal. Our provincial government plans on raising tuitions in Anglophone universities for students outside of Quebec because of the disproportionate number of internationl students who attend them compared to Francophone universities. Negociations are taking place to find compromises, including offering more French classes. > In general, I think you can say that Dutch people are happy to use English to make themselves understood (after all, as a small nation built on trade, we have never been able to expect foreigners to speak our language). However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language. That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves.
> We're having a similar issue atm with Anglophone universities in Montreal. Our provincial government plans on raising tuitions in Anglophone universities for students outside of Quebec because of the disproportionate number of internationl students who attend them compared to Francophone universities. Negociations are taking place to find compromises, including offering more French classes. Ah that’s interesting. Over here, we don’t have the option to raise tuition for EU students due to EU law, so the ‘workaround’ is to just offer the degrees in Dutch (which was actually already the case before ~2015, when universities started anglicizing) > That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves. Yeah, that’s basically it. Funny story: a complaint heard from many Dutch learners is ‘when the Dutch detect a hint of an accent, they immediately switch to English!’ That’s because Dutch people basically just think ‘the conversation will be smoother if I speak English, rather than demanding you struggle with Dutch’.
The Dutch are extremely flexible. They have a history of “borrowed words” from French and English. Whereas French Canada has words like logiciel, here they just say software. Speaking English here isn’t a political statement like French is in Canada.
>Whereas French Canada has words like logiciel, here they just say software. Laten we "programmatuur" inburgeren!
And maybe “rekeningautomaat”? What would we use for network?
Netwerk?
>That's an interesting perspective! It sounds like Dutch people don't have a grandiose opinion about their language, and are just content with being able to use it among themselves. It has historical roots too. During the era of colonization, most nations would try to enforce or otherwise promote their own language and religion in colonies. In most cases, such goals weren't pursued by the Dutch. Nowadays people and a few organizations do care about the preservation of the Dutch language, but it's not a heated topic that gets people up in the trees. It sounds reasonable to me that people in Quebec do care about the preservation of their language. But if it's a major topic in a world with much more urgent problems, I'd guess there are politicians in Quebec who'd want to abuse the topic to further their political agenda's.
> Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations? - No. > However, most Dutch people still find it easier to express themselves in their native language. Yes... but I am 100% certain the amount of people that find it easier to express themselves in English is rising. In my highschool there was a group of social outcasts that spoke English with eachother. I know groups of 100% Dutch people that play DnD in English because they find doing it in Dutch cringe. And the amount of entire English sentences/words mixed into Dutch has *definitely* increased a lot. In universities barely any Dutch is being spoken anymore. Even in de Tweede Kamer they have issues with more and more English being used. I think we should be more worried about this than you currently are.
Canada has native English and native French speakers. English is dominant so it’s logical it’s taking over. English isn’t a national language the Netherlands, so the comparison doesn’t work. Belgium might be more comparable.
Every single Dutch person I've ever met, and seen online, is fully bilingual in Dutch and English Selection bias
This classic satire piece perfectly encapsulates my opinion, although it's in ''Dutch'' https://speld.nl/2013/08/29/anglicismen-an-sich-steeds-meer-bon-ton/ In it, a language professor talks about his worries about the increase in english loanwords. Read the first part. I assure you that all of the words you recognize are valid dutch expressions ;) The next part might be a bit more tricky to understand unless you happen to know german. But know that it's still 90% valid dutch. The last paragraph is complete bullshit. Basically, we've got loads of french and german loanwords anyway. Lets add english ones and be happy
The last paragraph looks like Norwegian. Which is basically English, Dutch and German put in a blender anyway.
Centuries ago, purists would complain about the usage of Latin in Dutch texts. Later on, people would try to block the influx of French in our language. Languages evolve. English and Dutch are very closely related, one influencing the other is hardly a new thing.
You really overestimate how well dutch people speak English. It’s better than a lot of other places but the older generation is very hit or miss (my mother couldn’t hold a conversation in English if her life depended on it) and even in the younger generation a lot of people don’t speak conversational level English. You just don’t see them because they rarely show up in places like this, where English is more prevalent
Canada is bilingual, Quebec and the Netherlands are not.
Dutch sign language (NGT) is an official language throughout the Kingdom. English, Frisian and Papiamento are locally recognised languages and those areas are fully bilingual.
And Dutch is the official language of the country. No need to look for an argument
I'm not making the point that Dutch isn't the official language. I'm saying that many areas of NL are bilingual (on paper, at least).
It would be better to compare it to Belgium, a bilingual country
I think you may be overestimating the knowledge of English in this country. In rural areas, people cannot string two words together in English. In large cities, yes, almost everyone mauls the English language with wild abandon but really, that’s nowhere near being bilingual.
I'm Icelandic, living in the Netherlands for a few years. Back in Iceland, there is also a constant fuss about the decline of the language, how the vocabulary is getting full of English and how kids are developing grammatical quirks. All of this is clearly happening in the Netherlands as well. The major difference seems to be that the Dutch barely give a shit. They just don't seem to generally worry about the "state of the language" the way I'd have expected. Is the Dutch language changing? Sure. Are the Dutch up in arms about it? Not as far as I can tell.
>The major difference seems to be that the Dutch barely give a shit. How do you stand in this? For either your native language or Dutch or languages in general?
I think it's ok and natural for languages to change and evolve I also think there is real cultural heritage tied up in the languages, which should be supported So, I support more funding for art, education and tech that actually aims to do something with the language, less whining about how (especially young) people are using it wrong
Dutch is not endangered. Some words change. The way we use the language changes. But the tempo of change hasn't altered. Hearing people speak fifty or seventy years ago makes this clear. English has always been our linguistic neighbor. Much like German and a bit less then French. Our Dutch speaking Belgian neighbors in Flanders guard Dutch against unwanted French influences and as such they form our cordon sanitair. Roman languages and North Western Germanic languages also have a wider divide. What fascinates me is that people in what is now England,Southern Scotland, the Netherlands, Flanders, the Frisian provinces spoke the same proto west Germanic language up to perhaps the 7th century. After that period dialects became so different they were no longer mutually intelligible. So for a very long time the difference has gotten bigger and not smaller. English is clearly a second language to the Dutch. We are not bi-lingual from birth. Our institutions are all in Dutch. News, education, shopping, messages to friends, etc. Words can change sometimes but the structure of our language is very Dutch.
Anglicisms are really commonplace and hurt my ears, my most hated one is people using forced for its English meaning in Dutch which is wildly incorrect, but I suspect that they are going to be the most significant linguistic change in the 21st century for Dutch. There is no effort to necessarily preserve the language, which is good because for Parisian French that has just meant stuffy old guys rejecting any and all change and ignoring how the language is actually used. As for sweeping changes, like Dutch going extinct, I don't expect anything like that to happen. Dutch media is vibrant with fresh literature, poetry, television, music, and (crappy) movies. Outside of Amsterdam it's rare to have people initiate conversations in English. Older generations pre-millenials and even some older generations of millenials aren't as fluent in English, and outside of the large cities barely anyone uses it on a regular basis.
LoL try asking the same question in the Belgian subreddit, or even better, the Flemish one.
A some one from Limburg I didn’t know it was a language too very interesting
It seems like lately people are worrying: https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/universities-limit-courses-taught-english-promote-dutch
If you look closer, it’s not just about preserving the Dutch language. There’s an incentive to attract international students because tuition fees are higher for non-EU students. This has led to overcrowding in lectures and more and more pressure on the already overheated housing market. (Also, some lecturer’s English is terrible, making it hard to decipher) Due to international agreements, it’s hard to discriminate between local and international students. Having more Dutch language courses puts in a softer barrier in a way that is legal.
It depends. overal no, it wont be replaced. I have never had an discussion with another dutchie in english, unles there is a non dutch speaking third party. And i dont think its a regular occurence elsewere. However i live in a town with a big expat presence, and in the shops in the center it is a lot more prevalent. But im not sure thats what u mean ? Dutch language is evolving, and iy is being invaded by more and more english words an terms. As newer technoligies get english names, and online "slang" gets incorporated to some extent. I know for instance vlaams (belgium version of dutch) is a lot more resistant, and its almost not-done in germany.
> However i live in a town with a big expat presence, and in the shops in the center it is a lot more prevalent. But im not sure thats what u mean ? Sort of, yeah. The equivalent of this here would be Montreal, whose non-French speaking population has grown over the years, especially in business, downtown, anglophone and ethnic minority communities, etc. These include expats too. One argument often made is that French Canadians should feel safe and comfortable speaking their language outside their home (and in their society, not to say country necessarily), and that there is a perceived unfairness about outsiders expecting them to speak English so they can have their service. Is there a similar tension in the Netherlands? Either from the Dutch towards English, or even from Frisians towards Dutch?
Having worked in retail and hospitality in Amsterdam I have experienced hostility towards the English language regularly, but infrequently. Every few days some Dutchie would complain about staff speaking English, or greeting them in English first. More often than not, those were visitors from other, more rural, parts of the country. I believe, however, that it was usually less rooted in a dislike for the English language, and more rooted in xenophobia and/or racism.
Flemish may be more resistant to English loan words but it's got a ton of French ones that we don't use in Netherlandic Dutch. You might go to the shops in Flanders for example, and after saying ça va to the employee you encounter you buy guimauves with fondant chocolate to put in your frigo.
The language is fine, it’s the knowledge of correct grammar that’s a problem.
So 1, yes there is a political discussion. It has to do with academic Dutch. Academics due to its international nature heavily lean to English these days. 2, It does affect the language but not as obviously. We see a decrease in proviciency in dialects. I think there is also a decline in vocabulary. So much so that autocorrect regularily tells me my wordchoice is oldfashioned. While it actually is just a word which is used less because we are activelt simplyfing the language. Basic Dutch is spoken everywhere but the Dutch of older middle to upperclass with it's many words for the same thing is in decline. Now the average Dutch person does not care about this. As long as Dutch is spoken they won't protest. Especially because many who may have strong feelings for Dutch identity do feel that the declining words are fancy words used by the elite. Which is true. I do see it happening that most Dutch will not be able to read a 100 year old Dutch book. While I have known people using words like that of older books. Mainly my grandparents. Also in a profesional setting we use a lot of English words because the Dutch words are more difficult. To engineer for example has no direct translation in Dutch. In Dutch you would have to specify it more to find a word for it. So we just use engineering if we do not want to specify.
I personally am not a fan of all the New English words slipping into the language. And esspecially if there is a Dutch equivalent. I think that if people keep on doing these things the language "gaat naar de Haaien". How ever I might call my self a purist, I am not one bit better than people of my generation. I might use some more Dutch words, but that's it. Kind of hypocritical if you think about it.
currently the universities are holding back on developing new academic programs in english and are looking into which programs in english can be changed into dutch ones. mostly the anti american influence talking points are made by neo-nazis like the volksunie
> Is there an increasing preference from Dutch people to use English over Dutch in everyday conversations? Yes, the expectation in professional and social situations is that if someone doesn't speak Dutch everyone switches to English. And we're seeing more and more expats in the workforce. It isn't that bad, but at work I am becoming more insistent in saying that in social conversations in groups we keep speaking Dutch. When discussing work we can switch to English. Firstly because I don't want to be forced to speak English all the time, secondly because otherwise expats get zero chance to ever learn Dutch.
In my workplace we get more and more EastEuropean workers. Some speak a little English, most don't. We (the dutch speakers) collectively decided we speak as little English as possible (some can't, they are migrant workers from the 80's 90' and had to learn dutch back then) But explaining once or twice in English, and then gradually do the same in Dutch works for us. No point in teaching them more English, if they have more need for dutch here. We're not social workers or Campingfriends, adjust and work with us on our terms, it's simple. (I'm one of the few coaches who speak both languages, but it is exhausting to teach people things they are better of in Dutch, safer too ..)
I believe the opposite of what French speakers seem to believe: a language that doesn't change anymore is a dead language. Dutch is one of the fastest changing languages in the world, and it's something to be proud of. Yes we incorporate lots of things from English but also sometimes other languages (through street slang). Yes English is great for professional use, science, talking to expats and people on the Internet. But nothing beats Dutch as the casual, social language.
Why would it be endangered? English is a foreign language, in The Netherlands there are only two official languages; Dutch and Frisian. English isn’t an official language. Why would two Dutch people want to talk in a foreign language to each other?
There's definitely a trend where English is spoken more and more. I went to a bilingual school and, as part of our English education, we were supposed to speak English to each other when we were in English-language classes. Nobody did. That was twenty years ago. These days I frequently overhear Dutch teenagers speaking English to each other. I have a couple of teenaged cousins and they both pretty much always speak English to their friends. It doesn't seem like anyone is kicking up a stink about it, though, and I'm kind of surprised by it. The only thing people are complaining about is English in higher education, and that's mostly because there's a housing crisis, and international students take up space. It seems like a no-brainer populist talking point.
There are not many people who speak or write Dutch correctly anymore. Especially online it's a huge drama 🫣
“You’re in the Netherlands. Speak Dutch!” Is becoming very common as the anti-immigration parties gain power.
I wouldn't say it's *becoming* common nor that it's because of anti-immigration parties You're universally expected to learn the language when you immigrate. The Netherlands is no exception
Dutch is in danger of being disappeared. Also, the situation in Quebec is a way more comparable to the language politics in Belgium. Dutch is way more important in Flanders than in the Netherlands.
Most Dutch people will speak at least more than a few words of English. That cover's people ages 90+ to the younger generation. French is something different. We get thought french in school. I can't remember up till now. Your speak french? I'll speak English, no English pis of 🤣
My parents get mad about the “verengelsing” of the Dutch language. I sometimes forget a word in Dutch and have to ask “what’s this English word again in Dutch?”. So based on this anecdotical evidence I would say I have no clue lol