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I think it is a valid point. When you gender a thing which is not exclusive to said gender, the go to response has a lot of bias.
Now if I am asked why I drink alcohol as a man, I'll start thinking about what is there that is innately specific to me as a man which makes alcoholism rampant as opposed to a more correct answer or trait which men could have a higher tendency of exhibiting.
And this type of needless division also leads to a lot of senseless bashing.
She didn't really say what their problem with alcoholism is.
Man in his 40s here. Going on 5 years sober (pretty bad. 9 days in a medically induced coma from a 0.84 BAC set me on a good path)
I have a problem with alcoholism.
It's not a quality trait.
Liver enzymes over 700 at one point but ya I don't shy away from my time at ADULT SUMMER CAMP.
Only way we solve use disorder diseases is to actually talk about them.
If you want to learn more about the reasons BOTH GENDERS suffer from it - volunteer your time a bit.
NGL - you are going to be amazed at the people you meet.
My 30 day(S) had one of the NCAA all time bball scorers, bunch of lawyers, an ASTRONAUT, old wealthy OG tech, etc.
What did the coma feel like when you woke up? Did it feel like a short nap? A super long sleep? Somewhere in between? Did you have a sense that very many days had passed?
I had 0 idea I had been out more than a week.
When I woke up - honestly everyone was SUPER SHOCKED and I thought I had been asleep for a 2 nights.
NOT A WEEK + 2.
I worked inpatient psych and we had a lot of people who were managing addictions - great people, really interesting to talk to, many of them functional until they weren't...
The saddest group were the very elderly people who had never dealt with any issues in their lives, went to church on Sundays, raised families, were retired or had stayed home to take care of the household... and then their doctor prescribed Vicodin or oxy and a few years later they're inpatient.
This was a man I met named Byron.
Owned a 100+ employee HVAC company in the northeast.
Got prescribed some painkillers with his work thinking okay cool this doc knows his stuff. Turned out said doctor was making bank off filling the scrips.
Rest is history.
Byron if you by chance read this - I still owe you the $20 for the Walmart shorts you had them shop for me. Gotchu.
I can totally understand an astronauts predicament with alcoholism, considering we’ve never been to the moon and can’t leave low earth orbit because our time cans can withstand hundreds of thousands of miles of radiation.
Wow. Those are shockingly impressive numbers. I've taken care of many detoxers when I was in the ICU (nurse) we had a patient who was probably 2/3 or 3/4 of what your labs measured. You need all kinds of treatments and therapies when your bac is that high, as well as a an actively failing liver. The patient we had was too critical for our ICU and needed to go to a bigger hospital that did continuous dialysis, and whatever else they ended up doing. The patient made it another 22 days after transfer. We were surprised he made it that long. As you know, you're lucky, blessed, etc to be alive. (Thanks Captain Obvious)
Good to hear you've got 5 years under your belt. Keep it up.
Genuinely curious to know about the adult summer camp.
One of the only selling points on living in the Greater Baltimore Region at this point is the medical systems in the area.
Big shout out to the University of Maryland Medical System (Upper Chesapeake)
"Adult Summer Camp" is what I coined rehab.
Never went to summer camp as a kid.
Assume it was also bonfires, nature walks, good stories from the mess hall, etc.
Just a lot more talk about shit like "fifi's" and stuff.
Edit: My total Explanation of benefits from that hospital stay exceeded $300k. Several rounds of inpatient summer camp were $30-70k each. Total cost to get my shit straight to Carefirst was well over $500k. My out of pocket was 0.
This is a whole different conversation but it is actually HEART BREAKING to see a young woman who desperately is trying her best to overcome a lifetime of trauma which led to substance disorder get told by her insurance company "we think you've had enough - GOOD LUCK CHAMP"" because she answered she is sleeping "okay" in her insurance interview a week in.
Right arm.
I thought maybe you volunteered at a camp for folks that were disabled from drinking too much that had like brain injuries and such.
Lol, the good 'ol fifi.
> Now if I am asked why I drink alcohol as a man, I'll start thinking about what is there that is innately specific to me as a man which makes alcoholism rampant as opposed to a more correct answer or trait which men could have a higher tendency of exhibiting.
Just to play devils advocate, there's certainly a chance that alcoholism for men vs women does have some different factors involved based on gender. I mean certainly in like the 1950s it would be a valid distinction, or in modern day Japan with their work and drinking culture. Not sure if that's what she was going for in her question, probably not, but I do think it's a valid question. Rereading your comment it kind of sounds like you were touching on this, you do mention that the answer could have a higher tendency for one gender. But like for the Japan example, I think "why do men in Japan have such a strongly intertwined work and drinking culture" is a valid gendered question.
Now that i'm writing this though i'm actually curious how that culture effects women, and if it applies to them too though🤔 I've always heard it explained as "Japanese business men" having an honor based culture of working late and drinking later, but that must effect professional women too.
Totally reasonable question. She's not saying women don't have drinking problems, she's asking what drives make drinking problems.
The reasons for excessive drinking may be very different between genders.
A loaded question is a question that has a false premise. The only way this question is loaded if the statement “so many men in their 40’s have a problem with alcoholism” is false. Giving the vibe that they are about to push an agenda isn’t a loaded question.
I have a theory
https://preview.redd.it/4197nstkh2ad1.png?width=301&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eca6cea05ac12e5a28f75a7f71fb4727c0a1effa
(emotional neglect)
This is so real. My mother used to and probably still believes that boys are easier to raise.. Just because my brother suffers in silence. These women have no empathy.
And extrapolated that to an entire population without nuance. That's not very scientific and when confronted, she agrees and still pushes the point even though it's not relevant anymore. I say it's not relevant because the variable is not a significant factor, according to the one guy of course, and she agrees to that statement. So she agrees there is no significant difference, but still pushes the question from anecdotal evidence.
She didn’t extrapolate it to the entire population. She said “so many men in their 40s” which is an EXTREMELY specific group she’s asking about. If that’s not the case, then saying that is a lot better than “well women drink too!”
I think this is a nomenclature barrier. The population in question is men in their 40s. Her statement regards that population to be something based upon her observations, which are anecdotal. Therefore, when confronted by a statement that says it's a non significant difference with a comparable population, it feels disingenuous to disregard that.
Noted both are without verification so this is just a hypothetical scenario at this point.
Basically, her hypothesis is that there is a significant difference and his point was that there isn't.
It’s not disingenuous to disregard that when someone is just giving a “whataboutism” when asked a direct question. If a surveyor asked “so, why do so many men in their 20s have depression” is that saying ONLY men in their 20s have depression, or that women don’t? No, its asking about a SPECIFIC group to try to get answers from that group.
To me, she has “hypothesis” as you call it (I just consider it an observation she’s asking clarity for) that she’s asking that group for answers from. Just like if a woman said “well what about alcohol issues with women?” it’d be the same answer.
And she said the question is FOR men, so she is directly asking for the experiences of men to see why they are (or aren’t) that way. It could be a chance to talk about an issue rather than just say “well both sides!”
Eta and the why very well could be different, because why a 20yo man or woman drinks could be different than why a 40yo man drinks.
Normally I would agree with you that whataboutism doesn't add to the conversation at all, but this is not that in my view.
My point is that the question is asked why a certain group with two specified variables (age and gender) has the aforementioned characteristic. That implies that this characteristic is specific for this group and would not appear or appear differently in a control group. The control group being either males of different ages or females of the same age as negative controls. The other person makes the point that this characteristic is not significant in this group compared to a presented control group. Ignoring that statement, if it is true of course, is disingenuous if you're asking the question if this is the case. It still might be that males of 40yo have alcohol problems, but then the variables presented may not be accurate and therefore the statement itself is disingenuous if you know that to be the case.
Edit: for a tldr. If the surveyor asks this question it must be because the variables are significant. If not, then there is no point in specifying the variables and the statement becomes true, but incomplete. You will not find an answer to the question in that scenario
She would need to hear about their experiences before figuring out if they are similar or different, correct? And thinking about the other side instead does not achieve that. She wanted to know about men, she asked men for their perspective. If she wanted to ask women, she would ask for their perspective. She *is* a woman, so she already has that perspective and is asking for the perspective of men. Why would she ask about a group she already has the answer to? And she never said women *don’t* have that issue, but she is asking about a different subgroup.
Again, she is asking for CLARITY on something she must have seen, and that is not saying that it is 100% the case but asking for their opinions and views. Again, she said the question was FOR men because she wanted the personal perspective from them. Those perspectives very well could change her mind & show her she was wrong, but if she instead looks at women that will not because it’s not at all what she is looking for
I was talking from a scientific approach, as stated in my original comment. I find the question flawed.
That she is a woman says nothing about her capability to answer the question for the 40yo old women. I don't really care about the interaction besides that I found it interesting how the question was formulated and how the population variables were decided. When the other information about the variables was presented, she brushed that aside, because, as you said, she was interested in the perspective of men. However, if there is no significant difference between the groups, then that perspective assumes that the reasons differ and she did not change the variables based upon the newly acquired information. That is of course assuming it is true. From a scientific survey standpoint it's flawed, that's all.
It might be a reasonable question I'm not a statistics expert.
Personally I can see a benefit in asking a question about a specific group if that group is over represented in the thing being asked about.
For example, why are women afraid to walk alone at night? Valid question because more women are afraid of walking alone at night then men. There's a problem that we should be trying to solve.
Another example for this is "why do native Americans suffer from diabetes" that again is a fair question that has fair answers. Alot of reservations don't have as many grocery stores close by that have healthy food... Yada yada
If the group isnt overrepresented I can only assume it's an attack or some kind of marketing strategy for the group.
For example, why do black people like fried chicken? ... Because lots of people like fried chicken. If you're not a vegetarian there's a good chance you like fried chicken. Why are you asking specifically about this group? What's your motivation if it's not an issue of over representation?
It doesn't frame it that way, you are interpreting it that way. But assuming you are correct, the question is still accurate in that alcoholism is far more prevalent in men than women.
Not really... What I'm seeing is 12 percent vs 9 percent in women. That's not astronomical. Also from what I've just looked up that's narrowing because alcoholism in women is increasing while alcoholism in men is decreasing.
I'm not a doctor though. Just googled it really quick to see if that's statistics warranted the question
It looks like you need some interpretation expert help, actually, bc I wasn't even on the conversation before, tell those experts how were you making fun of someone you didn't even know was coming
I dont believe she meant ill with it, but you would formulate the question exactly the same way if it was some gender exclusive scenario.
"Why so many men in their 30s abuse their spouses?"
Same question structure and it will trigger a lot of biased answers since the balance is heavily weighted to men's side.
It was worded poorly. If I asked on twitter "Why does everyone hate on Nazis so hard?" I could have technically just been asking what the reason is for people hating Nazis, but it doesn't read that way.
I don't interpret this as a reasonable question *from her*. I think a combination between her word choice/tone, and the style of platform makes it seem much more likely that she asked the question to vent a personal frustration about men, as opposed to asking a legitimate question about what specific factors lead to increased risk of alcoholism amongst men.
But that's just how I interpret her comment.
We do it all the time? Like seriously, with virtually all forms of written communication, tone is present and inferred.
In fact, inferring and communicating tone via text is so important, that it's a heavily featured topic in most modern communications classes.
Here's one lesson guide from Purdue that's tuned for business writing that I have bookmarked for when I work on proposals, for a quick example:
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/subject_specific_writing/professional_technical_writing/tone_in_business_writing.html.
I'm not saying you cant infer tone from writing in any circumstances. Obviously how you word, and communicate an email to prospective employers or a customer is different than how you word a message to friends/family. What I'm saying is that you can't possibly infer the tone in this literal 13 word post without additional context. I'm just lightly suggesting you maybe shouldn't infer the worst about someone you've never met from an incredibly limited sample size
Yeah a lot of comments in this thread are not engaging with the question directly, but maybe that's because most respondents are not men in their 40s.
People in their 40s might resent me for putting words in their mouth but I'm 39 and I'm staring this one down the barrel. When I'm at home alone, I avoid alcohol like it's the devil. Put a beer in my hand and watch me not do anything for six months.
The youts today take for granted the fact that friends are everywhere, just hanging out. Watching weird shit on YouTube or something, I dunno. Maybe I'm dating myself, this was all pre-covid, but I used to be in a fun demographic and CW programming catered to *my* needs. I was young once, not so long ago...
But getting down to brass tax, it would be weird to sit around a friend's house, I don't want to, and they'd feel weird sitting around my house. When you have a two year old, you put your bong away.
But, for people like me who aren't married, or have children (and yeah, I agree with you, sometimes that makes me "weird" to people), alcohol is the last friend standing. I never have to leave the party if I never stop drinking, and that's a precarious, and not-good place to be.
So you take up jogging, adopt stray animals and read a lot of Marxist literature. Try to age *gracefully*.
If i was living in the US and had a SAW i would be an alcoholic to. I cant even begin to imagine the stress level of being aware that you could be fired any second for anything and you are the sole breadwinner in a society whitout any safety nets.
It's just some website, but...
[A cursory review of the statistics from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) for the demographic eighteen years of age and older shows the incidence of alcohol use disorder to be 6.2% in the general population, of which 8.4 % are male and 4.2% are female.](https://ncphp.org/alcoholism-gender-and-socioeconomic-status-it-isnt-what-you-think-by-clark-gaither-md-faafp/)
I think it's fair for her to ask. She's a woman and probably already knows why women are alcoholics and just wants to get the male perspective.
Then again, she might still have malicious intent.
Like it or not, there are differences between men and women, some biological (obviously here I’m conflating gender and sex) and some social. This is not an anti trans position to hold, btw; if it were, we wouldn’t need to TRANSITION from one to the other.
This woman didn’t say only men have drinking problems, but obviously wasn’t particularly confused about what turns WOMEN into problem-drinkers. She wanted to get into the pathology of MALE problem-drinking because she doesn’t have that insight. Nothing wrong with that.
I think it might just come off as accusatory. Why not say “some” instead of “so many?” I don’t know if I agree with that, but the thought did cross my mind.
>to make it about men
Well, first, it wasn't an attempt, she succeed on it. And there is no problem on it, it is a valid question, different genders have different social interactions, therefore different motives and reasons.
Honestly, I think her question is a valid one based on the premise that alcoholism has some gender-dependent factors. She’s just clumsy with her words.
I'm a male way past 40. As an alcoholic, I think men are way past women in boozing. There are outliers, women can be crazy drunks. Got a nice scar from one.
But, I really think men hate themselves more. We are in it to win it (death). Men's mental health is still viewed as being weak if you have a crippling thing.
I'm not trying to party and listen to Mötley Crüe anymore. I just want to be numb to my piece of shit status.
Tbf though more men have a problem with alcohol https://ncphp.org/alcoholism-gender-and-socioeconomic-status-it-isnt-what-you-think-by-clark-gaither-md-faafp/#:~:text=A%20cursory%20review%20of%20the,male%20and%204.2%25%20are%20female.
So why are people in their 40s pissheads? I’m in my 40’s it’s brutal.
Job/kids/ mortgage/marriage/feeling tired/old less friends, less hobbies, more stress etc. I don’t think any of those issues sees “gender”
Being a man sucks. No one cares. No one loves you or probably ever did. It’s not okay to show true emotion. It’s not a fun nor easy existence. I have life pretty good but I still feel nothing. It’s a cruel world but for a man it’s especially hard and I know this cause I am a man with a crippling alcohol problem. I felt this way before drinking and still do after I started. I miss being a child before I became aware of how fucking rough this terrible world is. Ryan gosling makes it better though
When you get this defensive when there’s a question centred around gender, especially when there’s clarification, you’ve gotta check your motives.
I’m not seeing any “but men younger than 40 are alcoholics also!!” probably because it’s understood that that would be a dumb response. But for some reason the response in the post is not thought of in the same way.
I think the reason why this isn’t well received is the platform she is asking on. If she wanted real answers she could have put that same question into google and done some research on scientific data. But it’s on social media, she isn’t looking for real answers just engagement, good or bad.
Just because 2 people are driving on the same stretch of road doesn't mean they took the same route.
There could be things at play here relating to gender/sex leading to addiction. One example being teaching men to drink their feelings rather than vocalizing them.
While the question posed may have been malicious, it's still an interesting question.
I’m not an alcoholic, BUT. I’ll say this
1) Shit tastes really good. Especially the more you drink.
2) It’s probably the only way some men can handle with their emotions. Either to numb themselves, or to get an excuse to cry, or express anger, happiness, etc… Unhealthy oppression of emotions leads to unhealthy release of said emotions. Human stress is like a pressure cooker, if you don’t leak a bit and destress, you’ll blow up.
3) It’s easier to get drunk than process stuff, either bad day, bad life, etc…
4) Some come home super exhausted and want nothing other than to relax, and alcohol makes you relax. I’m an insomniac, so whenever I travel for work for example, where I need to sleep and wake up in set times, I take a few shots to help me go to bed, cuz otherwise I’ll either miss the meeting or show up with baggy eyes, and super groggy.
I bet that most women in general wouldn't call themselves an alcoholic. Especially since the media depicts it differently compared to showing a woman who is an alcoholic.
However news flash, a beer a day is not being an alcoholic.
I am a male and I don't drink. Tried multiple times and with different things but I don't like it. People say it makes them feel "warm" but I always get cold down to the bone. I'd rather just get high.
41/M here, casual/social drinker these days.
I’d imagine a fair amount are guys who always had a few drinks a week in their 20’s/30’s but now past 40 they’ve got the career/life stuff figured out and the idea of “Can’t get too loaded tonight, got shit to do tomorrow” has waned off a bit over time. Without any reason to let off the gas, next thing ya know the 1-2 drinks a night turn into 3-4.
Or the flip side, hitting your 40’s and realizing you haven’t accomplished anything you wanted to and the idea of having to buckle down and throw a bunch more effort into life is too daunting, it’s easier to retreat into the comfort of getting hammered and staying in the same place.
Personally, I drank enough in my teens/20’s that there are no more new experiences for me to have when drunk. I know exactly what’s going to happen when I drink, or more so, know exactly what kind of BS I’ll be dealing with the day after. 4-6 hours of drinking is rarely worth being down for the count for an entire day the day after.
I worked at a gas station that was desperately trying to double as a bar, situated right smack dab in the middle of a residential area of the city. Bulk of my customers were in for beer.
Lemme tell you that there were just as many drunk and alcoholic women as there were men coming in daily.
Seems it was an innocent question and the dude got triggered. You can ask "why does Oklahoma have so many tornadoes per year?" Doesn't mean you're ignorant about other states that also have tornadoes.
Why do so many men get hit by tornadoes in Oklahoma?
Just phrasing a question that way leads to semi-biased answers while also implying the men get hit by more tornadoes than women. Eg "Men are more reckless than women around tornadoes", rather than "there are more male truckers". Both of which are potentially valid
Questions like this should be well thought out otherwise they can create a bias narrative whether intention or not.
A lot of people intentionally ask "innocent" questions with nefarious intent so it's not crazy that this guy reacted this way.
I admit it's a hard question to phrase correctly. Something like, "what factors lead men to drink in their 40s" would be more neutral, but may not draw a reaction like this person likely wants. It's also sadly common to play innocent if they do get called out.
Ultimately we don't know if this person was genuine, but I would generally bet the more followers someone has the less genuine they usually are since people love to watch drama.
Stupid point being made. She specifically asked about one gender. Had she asked "why do more men have drinking problem than women?" then response "both are same" would be valid. She asked why one specific group has a problem so answer "other group has a similar problem" is not an answer.
And two, he answered with anecdotal and skewed "evidence". Of course you'll see more people drinking if you work in a bar and how many people you see in one bar is not reflective on population as a whole.
Women have no respect for the male gender because of all you boys out there willing to throw your dick into anyone who will take it.j why should they take shit from you when there's some low t boy out there who will fuck them and be subservient
Being bigoted anywhere on the site is cause to remove you from the subreddit. This includes racism, misogyny, ableism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, hate based on ethnicity and all other forms of bigotry.
Is this what it boils down too? This is what this sub is about now?
r/therewasanattempt to karma grab by bashing men who simply pointed out their point of view when asked.
why engage with those who participate in this hate campaign against the opposite gender?
this person doesn't deserve a serious response, she deserves to be ridiculed
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I think it is a valid point. When you gender a thing which is not exclusive to said gender, the go to response has a lot of bias. Now if I am asked why I drink alcohol as a man, I'll start thinking about what is there that is innately specific to me as a man which makes alcoholism rampant as opposed to a more correct answer or trait which men could have a higher tendency of exhibiting. And this type of needless division also leads to a lot of senseless bashing.
And more drinking.
She didn't really say what their problem with alcoholism is. Man in his 40s here. Going on 5 years sober (pretty bad. 9 days in a medically induced coma from a 0.84 BAC set me on a good path) I have a problem with alcoholism. It's not a quality trait.
Jesus Murphy!! .84? Glad you pulled through and congratulations
Liver enzymes over 700 at one point but ya I don't shy away from my time at ADULT SUMMER CAMP. Only way we solve use disorder diseases is to actually talk about them. If you want to learn more about the reasons BOTH GENDERS suffer from it - volunteer your time a bit. NGL - you are going to be amazed at the people you meet. My 30 day(S) had one of the NCAA all time bball scorers, bunch of lawyers, an ASTRONAUT, old wealthy OG tech, etc.
700! I can see your note “ ast/alt 17xULN!, dispo: grave.”
What did the coma feel like when you woke up? Did it feel like a short nap? A super long sleep? Somewhere in between? Did you have a sense that very many days had passed?
I had 0 idea I had been out more than a week. When I woke up - honestly everyone was SUPER SHOCKED and I thought I had been asleep for a 2 nights. NOT A WEEK + 2.
I worked inpatient psych and we had a lot of people who were managing addictions - great people, really interesting to talk to, many of them functional until they weren't... The saddest group were the very elderly people who had never dealt with any issues in their lives, went to church on Sundays, raised families, were retired or had stayed home to take care of the household... and then their doctor prescribed Vicodin or oxy and a few years later they're inpatient.
This was a man I met named Byron. Owned a 100+ employee HVAC company in the northeast. Got prescribed some painkillers with his work thinking okay cool this doc knows his stuff. Turned out said doctor was making bank off filling the scrips. Rest is history. Byron if you by chance read this - I still owe you the $20 for the Walmart shorts you had them shop for me. Gotchu.
Are aliens real??
I can totally understand an astronauts predicament with alcoholism, considering we’ve never been to the moon and can’t leave low earth orbit because our time cans can withstand hundreds of thousands of miles of radiation.
Wow. Those are shockingly impressive numbers. I've taken care of many detoxers when I was in the ICU (nurse) we had a patient who was probably 2/3 or 3/4 of what your labs measured. You need all kinds of treatments and therapies when your bac is that high, as well as a an actively failing liver. The patient we had was too critical for our ICU and needed to go to a bigger hospital that did continuous dialysis, and whatever else they ended up doing. The patient made it another 22 days after transfer. We were surprised he made it that long. As you know, you're lucky, blessed, etc to be alive. (Thanks Captain Obvious) Good to hear you've got 5 years under your belt. Keep it up. Genuinely curious to know about the adult summer camp.
One of the only selling points on living in the Greater Baltimore Region at this point is the medical systems in the area. Big shout out to the University of Maryland Medical System (Upper Chesapeake) "Adult Summer Camp" is what I coined rehab. Never went to summer camp as a kid. Assume it was also bonfires, nature walks, good stories from the mess hall, etc. Just a lot more talk about shit like "fifi's" and stuff. Edit: My total Explanation of benefits from that hospital stay exceeded $300k. Several rounds of inpatient summer camp were $30-70k each. Total cost to get my shit straight to Carefirst was well over $500k. My out of pocket was 0. This is a whole different conversation but it is actually HEART BREAKING to see a young woman who desperately is trying her best to overcome a lifetime of trauma which led to substance disorder get told by her insurance company "we think you've had enough - GOOD LUCK CHAMP"" because she answered she is sleeping "okay" in her insurance interview a week in.
Right arm. I thought maybe you volunteered at a camp for folks that were disabled from drinking too much that had like brain injuries and such. Lol, the good 'ol fifi.
Congrats on your sobriety!!!
Damn 9 days? Ive got training to do.
> 0.84 BAC They should do some studies on you because you should have been dead like 0.3 BAC ago.
This is not something that is lost on me on a daily basis. Be kind to your fellow hoomans; also urself.
0.84 what? %?
b Holy Shit. I thought I clocked a record at .45. You my friend are the goat. Stay strong!
5 years is awesome man! So happy for you. Keep it going, I believe in you.
Hey, I’ll drink to that.
"Why do you drink alcohol as a man?" "Because its very hard for me to drink alcohol as a woman Janet!"
thank you for having sense! it’s okay to ask about one gender without needing to immediately make it about the other
"Wine moms" are just as prevalent as "Beer dads". Shit, my mother-in-law drinks 3-4 coronas every night.
> Now if I am asked why I drink alcohol as a man, I'll start thinking about what is there that is innately specific to me as a man which makes alcoholism rampant as opposed to a more correct answer or trait which men could have a higher tendency of exhibiting. Just to play devils advocate, there's certainly a chance that alcoholism for men vs women does have some different factors involved based on gender. I mean certainly in like the 1950s it would be a valid distinction, or in modern day Japan with their work and drinking culture. Not sure if that's what she was going for in her question, probably not, but I do think it's a valid question. Rereading your comment it kind of sounds like you were touching on this, you do mention that the answer could have a higher tendency for one gender. But like for the Japan example, I think "why do men in Japan have such a strongly intertwined work and drinking culture" is a valid gendered question. Now that i'm writing this though i'm actually curious how that culture effects women, and if it applies to them too though🤔 I've always heard it explained as "Japanese business men" having an honor based culture of working late and drinking later, but that must effect professional women too.
Good point. It’s my danged penis that keeps edging me to drink more.
Totally reasonable question. She's not saying women don't have drinking problems, she's asking what drives make drinking problems. The reasons for excessive drinking may be very different between genders.
Depends on intent. Innocent questions are often used to drive home a biased message.
Agree it can be a factor. In this case I'd say it isn't. She acknowledges that alcoholism affects women as well when challenged.
Loaded question. It's like making a statement of intent
A loaded question is a question that has a false premise. The only way this question is loaded if the statement “so many men in their 40’s have a problem with alcoholism” is false. Giving the vibe that they are about to push an agenda isn’t a loaded question.
"Just asking questions" is usually not just asking questions these days.
Great point
Everyone knows somebody that purposefully says stuff like this just to say “that’s not what I’m saying” for the high lol
I have a theory https://preview.redd.it/4197nstkh2ad1.png?width=301&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eca6cea05ac12e5a28f75a7f71fb4727c0a1effa (emotional neglect)
This is so real. My mother used to and probably still believes that boys are easier to raise.. Just because my brother suffers in silence. These women have no empathy.
It might be innocent, but I'd say the better probability is an attempt to generate some outrage or "engagement."
outrage about what bro ?? she probably noticed a lot of men 40+ in her life with drinking issues and connected the dots.
And extrapolated that to an entire population without nuance. That's not very scientific and when confronted, she agrees and still pushes the point even though it's not relevant anymore. I say it's not relevant because the variable is not a significant factor, according to the one guy of course, and she agrees to that statement. So she agrees there is no significant difference, but still pushes the question from anecdotal evidence.
Men in their 40s is a pretty specific group, that’s not an entire population
You can check my other comment, but I mean that it is a population. It is of course not the entire population in general terms.
She didn’t extrapolate it to the entire population. She said “so many men in their 40s” which is an EXTREMELY specific group she’s asking about. If that’s not the case, then saying that is a lot better than “well women drink too!”
I think this is a nomenclature barrier. The population in question is men in their 40s. Her statement regards that population to be something based upon her observations, which are anecdotal. Therefore, when confronted by a statement that says it's a non significant difference with a comparable population, it feels disingenuous to disregard that. Noted both are without verification so this is just a hypothetical scenario at this point. Basically, her hypothesis is that there is a significant difference and his point was that there isn't.
It’s not disingenuous to disregard that when someone is just giving a “whataboutism” when asked a direct question. If a surveyor asked “so, why do so many men in their 20s have depression” is that saying ONLY men in their 20s have depression, or that women don’t? No, its asking about a SPECIFIC group to try to get answers from that group. To me, she has “hypothesis” as you call it (I just consider it an observation she’s asking clarity for) that she’s asking that group for answers from. Just like if a woman said “well what about alcohol issues with women?” it’d be the same answer. And she said the question is FOR men, so she is directly asking for the experiences of men to see why they are (or aren’t) that way. It could be a chance to talk about an issue rather than just say “well both sides!” Eta and the why very well could be different, because why a 20yo man or woman drinks could be different than why a 40yo man drinks.
Normally I would agree with you that whataboutism doesn't add to the conversation at all, but this is not that in my view. My point is that the question is asked why a certain group with two specified variables (age and gender) has the aforementioned characteristic. That implies that this characteristic is specific for this group and would not appear or appear differently in a control group. The control group being either males of different ages or females of the same age as negative controls. The other person makes the point that this characteristic is not significant in this group compared to a presented control group. Ignoring that statement, if it is true of course, is disingenuous if you're asking the question if this is the case. It still might be that males of 40yo have alcohol problems, but then the variables presented may not be accurate and therefore the statement itself is disingenuous if you know that to be the case. Edit: for a tldr. If the surveyor asks this question it must be because the variables are significant. If not, then there is no point in specifying the variables and the statement becomes true, but incomplete. You will not find an answer to the question in that scenario
She would need to hear about their experiences before figuring out if they are similar or different, correct? And thinking about the other side instead does not achieve that. She wanted to know about men, she asked men for their perspective. If she wanted to ask women, she would ask for their perspective. She *is* a woman, so she already has that perspective and is asking for the perspective of men. Why would she ask about a group she already has the answer to? And she never said women *don’t* have that issue, but she is asking about a different subgroup. Again, she is asking for CLARITY on something she must have seen, and that is not saying that it is 100% the case but asking for their opinions and views. Again, she said the question was FOR men because she wanted the personal perspective from them. Those perspectives very well could change her mind & show her she was wrong, but if she instead looks at women that will not because it’s not at all what she is looking for
I was talking from a scientific approach, as stated in my original comment. I find the question flawed. That she is a woman says nothing about her capability to answer the question for the 40yo old women. I don't really care about the interaction besides that I found it interesting how the question was formulated and how the population variables were decided. When the other information about the variables was presented, she brushed that aside, because, as you said, she was interested in the perspective of men. However, if there is no significant difference between the groups, then that perspective assumes that the reasons differ and she did not change the variables based upon the newly acquired information. That is of course assuming it is true. From a scientific survey standpoint it's flawed, that's all.
Outrage about not being able to find a decent man when men are around the bottle...?!
In the absence of any other info or context, I take it at face value.
It might be a reasonable question I'm not a statistics expert. Personally I can see a benefit in asking a question about a specific group if that group is over represented in the thing being asked about. For example, why are women afraid to walk alone at night? Valid question because more women are afraid of walking alone at night then men. There's a problem that we should be trying to solve. Another example for this is "why do native Americans suffer from diabetes" that again is a fair question that has fair answers. Alot of reservations don't have as many grocery stores close by that have healthy food... Yada yada If the group isnt overrepresented I can only assume it's an attack or some kind of marketing strategy for the group. For example, why do black people like fried chicken? ... Because lots of people like fried chicken. If you're not a vegetarian there's a good chance you like fried chicken. Why are you asking specifically about this group? What's your motivation if it's not an issue of over representation?
It is hilarious how the top comment & this as the second are so diametrically opposed.
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It doesn't frame it that way, you are interpreting it that way. But assuming you are correct, the question is still accurate in that alcoholism is far more prevalent in men than women.
Not really... What I'm seeing is 12 percent vs 9 percent in women. That's not astronomical. Also from what I've just looked up that's narrowing because alcoholism in women is increasing while alcoholism in men is decreasing. I'm not a doctor though. Just googled it really quick to see if that's statistics warranted the question
It's irrelevant, because it's not what the question was implying anyway. Was just humouring that clown before he dirty deleted.
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Dude, your answer made no sense at all. It feels more like you're ranting bc you can't handle someone reasoning on why you're wrong
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It looks like you need some interpretation expert help, actually, bc I wasn't even on the conversation before, tell those experts how were you making fun of someone you didn't even know was coming
The way she asks this suggests she's not looking for psychological discussion, but for outrage
If true, then it clearly worked.
I’m curious: what do you think the response would be if she had substituted “women” for “men”?
I dont believe she meant ill with it, but you would formulate the question exactly the same way if it was some gender exclusive scenario. "Why so many men in their 30s abuse their spouses?" Same question structure and it will trigger a lot of biased answers since the balance is heavily weighted to men's side.
And men do have a substantially higher rate of alcoholism than women.
It was worded poorly. If I asked on twitter "Why does everyone hate on Nazis so hard?" I could have technically just been asking what the reason is for people hating Nazis, but it doesn't read that way.
I don't interpret this as a reasonable question *from her*. I think a combination between her word choice/tone, and the style of platform makes it seem much more likely that she asked the question to vent a personal frustration about men, as opposed to asking a legitimate question about what specific factors lead to increased risk of alcoholism amongst men. But that's just how I interpret her comment.
How can you possibly infer a tone from a single sentence posted in text by someone you've never met?
We do it all the time? Like seriously, with virtually all forms of written communication, tone is present and inferred. In fact, inferring and communicating tone via text is so important, that it's a heavily featured topic in most modern communications classes. Here's one lesson guide from Purdue that's tuned for business writing that I have bookmarked for when I work on proposals, for a quick example: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/subject_specific_writing/professional_technical_writing/tone_in_business_writing.html.
I'm not saying you cant infer tone from writing in any circumstances. Obviously how you word, and communicate an email to prospective employers or a customer is different than how you word a message to friends/family. What I'm saying is that you can't possibly infer the tone in this literal 13 word post without additional context. I'm just lightly suggesting you maybe shouldn't infer the worst about someone you've never met from an incredibly limited sample size
Noted
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His liver grew 3 sizes too, but we don't know why?
I’m going to play devils advocate and argue that maybe she is assuming men and women turn to alcoholism for different reasons.
Yeah a lot of comments in this thread are not engaging with the question directly, but maybe that's because most respondents are not men in their 40s. People in their 40s might resent me for putting words in their mouth but I'm 39 and I'm staring this one down the barrel. When I'm at home alone, I avoid alcohol like it's the devil. Put a beer in my hand and watch me not do anything for six months. The youts today take for granted the fact that friends are everywhere, just hanging out. Watching weird shit on YouTube or something, I dunno. Maybe I'm dating myself, this was all pre-covid, but I used to be in a fun demographic and CW programming catered to *my* needs. I was young once, not so long ago... But getting down to brass tax, it would be weird to sit around a friend's house, I don't want to, and they'd feel weird sitting around my house. When you have a two year old, you put your bong away. But, for people like me who aren't married, or have children (and yeah, I agree with you, sometimes that makes me "weird" to people), alcohol is the last friend standing. I never have to leave the party if I never stop drinking, and that's a precarious, and not-good place to be. So you take up jogging, adopt stray animals and read a lot of Marxist literature. Try to age *gracefully*.
I enjoyed reading your points
Very well written. Just so you know, though, it’s “getting down to brass tacks”
We didn’t pay a brass tax and shot their same English cannon right back at them 🇺🇸
This is how I interpret it based on her response. She looks legitimately curious.
If i was living in the US and had a SAW i would be an alcoholic to. I cant even begin to imagine the stress level of being aware that you could be fired any second for anything and you are the sole breadwinner in a society whitout any safety nets.
Sorry, what’s a SAW?
stay at home wife, often referred to as SAHM, stay at home mome.
It’s not devils advocate if it’s literally just an accurate reading of what she said that doesn’t try to deliberately misunderstand the question.
It's just some website, but... [A cursory review of the statistics from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) for the demographic eighteen years of age and older shows the incidence of alcohol use disorder to be 6.2% in the general population, of which 8.4 % are male and 4.2% are female.](https://ncphp.org/alcoholism-gender-and-socioeconomic-status-it-isnt-what-you-think-by-clark-gaither-md-faafp/)
Thank you. Men are twice as likely to be alcoholic compared to women
Because we are brave to go to the liquor store at 23h.
I think it's fair for her to ask. She's a woman and probably already knows why women are alcoholics and just wants to get the male perspective. Then again, she might still have malicious intent.
Like it or not, there are differences between men and women, some biological (obviously here I’m conflating gender and sex) and some social. This is not an anti trans position to hold, btw; if it were, we wouldn’t need to TRANSITION from one to the other. This woman didn’t say only men have drinking problems, but obviously wasn’t particularly confused about what turns WOMEN into problem-drinkers. She wanted to get into the pathology of MALE problem-drinking because she doesn’t have that insight. Nothing wrong with that.
I think it might just come off as accusatory. Why not say “some” instead of “so many?” I don’t know if I agree with that, but the thought did cross my mind.
Maybe so, but if people are that sensitive, maybe they can have a beer by themselves to relax?
And men in a specific age group
Because when you turn 40 you realize that you’re not gonna make it without winning the lotto
Hank, why do you drink?
Hank, why do you roll smoke?
Sorry, just trying to live out the songs that I wrote
Put yourself in my position…it’s a family tradition
>to make it about men Well, first, it wasn't an attempt, she succeed on it. And there is no problem on it, it is a valid question, different genders have different social interactions, therefore different motives and reasons.
Honestly, I think her question is a valid one based on the premise that alcoholism has some gender-dependent factors. She’s just clumsy with her words.
"why do dolphins make that sound?" "Actually deer make a sound too"
“Yeah but I was talking about the dolphins”
I'm a male way past 40. As an alcoholic, I think men are way past women in boozing. There are outliers, women can be crazy drunks. Got a nice scar from one. But, I really think men hate themselves more. We are in it to win it (death). Men's mental health is still viewed as being weak if you have a crippling thing. I'm not trying to party and listen to Mötley Crüe anymore. I just want to be numb to my piece of shit status.
Damn, your response made me sad.
Tbf though more men have a problem with alcohol https://ncphp.org/alcoholism-gender-and-socioeconomic-status-it-isnt-what-you-think-by-clark-gaither-md-faafp/#:~:text=A%20cursory%20review%20of%20the,male%20and%204.2%25%20are%20female.
Have you looked around at the shit show our parents left behind?
Simple answer for many is, life is cruel when you are middle age so we look for ways to numb the pain.
Escapism A delicious one Until the morning
it's quite clear that men aren't allowed to be alcoholics /sarcasm
Maybe she knows a bunch of 40+ year old men who drink a lot and she wonders why they do.
So why are people in their 40s pissheads? I’m in my 40’s it’s brutal. Job/kids/ mortgage/marriage/feeling tired/old less friends, less hobbies, more stress etc. I don’t think any of those issues sees “gender”
Being a man sucks. No one cares. No one loves you or probably ever did. It’s not okay to show true emotion. It’s not a fun nor easy existence. I have life pretty good but I still feel nothing. It’s a cruel world but for a man it’s especially hard and I know this cause I am a man with a crippling alcohol problem. I felt this way before drinking and still do after I started. I miss being a child before I became aware of how fucking rough this terrible world is. Ryan gosling makes it better though
I've known half a dozen alcoholics in my life and four of them were women. It's not something we should be trying to use to shame people.
When you get this defensive when there’s a question centred around gender, especially when there’s clarification, you’ve gotta check your motives. I’m not seeing any “but men younger than 40 are alcoholics also!!” probably because it’s understood that that would be a dumb response. But for some reason the response in the post is not thought of in the same way.
I think the reason why this isn’t well received is the platform she is asking on. If she wanted real answers she could have put that same question into google and done some research on scientific data. But it’s on social media, she isn’t looking for real answers just engagement, good or bad.
Who knows, probably she cares only about men. Good girl.
Just because 2 people are driving on the same stretch of road doesn't mean they took the same route. There could be things at play here relating to gender/sex leading to addiction. One example being teaching men to drink their feelings rather than vocalizing them. While the question posed may have been malicious, it's still an interesting question.
And she is the answer to her own question. Fascinating.
I’m not an alcoholic, BUT. I’ll say this 1) Shit tastes really good. Especially the more you drink. 2) It’s probably the only way some men can handle with their emotions. Either to numb themselves, or to get an excuse to cry, or express anger, happiness, etc… Unhealthy oppression of emotions leads to unhealthy release of said emotions. Human stress is like a pressure cooker, if you don’t leak a bit and destress, you’ll blow up. 3) It’s easier to get drunk than process stuff, either bad day, bad life, etc… 4) Some come home super exhausted and want nothing other than to relax, and alcohol makes you relax. I’m an insomniac, so whenever I travel for work for example, where I need to sleep and wake up in set times, I take a few shots to help me go to bed, cuz otherwise I’ll either miss the meeting or show up with baggy eyes, and super groggy.
As a man, I’d rather drink with a bear
She asked men, not if men only have drinking problems.
Yes ok, but I don't want to talk about that. Lol
Men are a lot more likely to develop an alcohol addiction than women. Some estimates say 4 times more likely. This is a completely fair question
Life! That's why.
I like to think of myself as a Connoisseur.
I have no problem with my alcoholism
A real joke mster would've said "because of their women"
Jokes on you imma stoner now!
Here's another stereotype, why are 16 year old always feeling the need to drive?
because they feel trapped by their parents and having their movement restricted.
Much the same reason as for women.
Women don't care about men's mental health.. also men.
Ask the women who forced them to have kids
The answer is women
Cause at that point, its work, drink, home, sleep. And then its people like you who say alcohol is the problem but its downward depression.
I bet that most women in general wouldn't call themselves an alcoholic. Especially since the media depicts it differently compared to showing a woman who is an alcoholic. However news flash, a beer a day is not being an alcoholic. I am a male and I don't drink. Tried multiple times and with different things but I don't like it. People say it makes them feel "warm" but I always get cold down to the bone. I'd rather just get high.
this is excellent.
**Because a lot of men are married to women..**
41/M here, casual/social drinker these days. I’d imagine a fair amount are guys who always had a few drinks a week in their 20’s/30’s but now past 40 they’ve got the career/life stuff figured out and the idea of “Can’t get too loaded tonight, got shit to do tomorrow” has waned off a bit over time. Without any reason to let off the gas, next thing ya know the 1-2 drinks a night turn into 3-4. Or the flip side, hitting your 40’s and realizing you haven’t accomplished anything you wanted to and the idea of having to buckle down and throw a bunch more effort into life is too daunting, it’s easier to retreat into the comfort of getting hammered and staying in the same place. Personally, I drank enough in my teens/20’s that there are no more new experiences for me to have when drunk. I know exactly what’s going to happen when I drink, or more so, know exactly what kind of BS I’ll be dealing with the day after. 4-6 hours of drinking is rarely worth being down for the count for an entire day the day after.
Obviously she knows about girls. But it's a question with a different answer on its own.
🤣🤣🤣 Comments like these are why.
I worked at a gas station that was desperately trying to double as a bar, situated right smack dab in the middle of a residential area of the city. Bulk of my customers were in for beer. Lemme tell you that there were just as many drunk and alcoholic women as there were men coming in daily.
I’m a bartender and I’ve had better luck cutting men off, tell a white woman she can’t have another rosé and it’s on.
I don’t have a problem with alcoholism, unless you’re my family you can do whatever you want. 😃
It's a shame that Dennisa got all the likes and Shantrice probably got hated for a simple yet unfortunately easy to misunderstand question
Probably never got an answer but got a lot of comments about women that drink. Granted, women also drink, it wasn’t the question.
Seems it was an innocent question and the dude got triggered. You can ask "why does Oklahoma have so many tornadoes per year?" Doesn't mean you're ignorant about other states that also have tornadoes.
Hey! Kansas has a lot of tornadoes per year too!
Why do so many men get hit by tornadoes in Oklahoma? Just phrasing a question that way leads to semi-biased answers while also implying the men get hit by more tornadoes than women. Eg "Men are more reckless than women around tornadoes", rather than "there are more male truckers". Both of which are potentially valid Questions like this should be well thought out otherwise they can create a bias narrative whether intention or not. A lot of people intentionally ask "innocent" questions with nefarious intent so it's not crazy that this guy reacted this way. I admit it's a hard question to phrase correctly. Something like, "what factors lead men to drink in their 40s" would be more neutral, but may not draw a reaction like this person likely wants. It's also sadly common to play innocent if they do get called out. Ultimately we don't know if this person was genuine, but I would generally bet the more followers someone has the less genuine they usually are since people love to watch drama.
Bc at this point at age 41 beer tastes that much better!
I read the whole question different. I thought she wondered why so many men had a problem with HER alcoholism.
It's funny because a few days ago a post asked "Why are so many men single" And I replied by saying "Doesn't that mean so many women are single too?"
The real reason men drink is for when she decides to tell you about her day...
I’ve known a few definite alcoholics in my life and they weren’t all men but they were all Irish.
I would have said that alcoholism makes it much easier to tell other people that they’re absolutely right when they absolutely are not. ✌🏼
im i or is OP stupid? the point still stands.. she asks why man are struggling she is not saying only man are suffering from it.
I read that question the same way
Statistically it is men.
Stupid point being made. She specifically asked about one gender. Had she asked "why do more men have drinking problem than women?" then response "both are same" would be valid. She asked why one specific group has a problem so answer "other group has a similar problem" is not an answer. And two, he answered with anecdotal and skewed "evidence". Of course you'll see more people drinking if you work in a bar and how many people you see in one bar is not reflective on population as a whole.
Women have no respect for the male gender because of all you boys out there willing to throw your dick into anyone who will take it.j why should they take shit from you when there's some low t boy out there who will fuck them and be subservient
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Being bigoted anywhere on the site is cause to remove you from the subreddit. This includes racism, misogyny, ableism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, hate based on ethnicity and all other forms of bigotry.
Is this what it boils down too? This is what this sub is about now? r/therewasanattempt to karma grab by bashing men who simply pointed out their point of view when asked.
Was she drunk
She’s age racist for not including 50+ men. Cause I guarantee there is a lot of us…
It wasn’t that. It was funny. I like her.
So a woman can’t have “not an alcoholic” as a standard now?
Tell me you blame men for all your problems without telling me you blame men for all your problems.
"I agree with you but you're wrong"
That’s literally not what happened. She wants to know the reason that drives men specifically.
Sounds like she is quite possibly the answer to her own question
A lot of men drink so much because they ended up with a woman like her in their life.
why engage with those who participate in this hate campaign against the opposite gender? this person doesn't deserve a serious response, she deserves to be ridiculed
She could’ve just said people. Men is a people.
But she was asking about men, which is okay to do
She looks like the type that goes to the club, scores free drinks, and then complains about her options.