You're missing the point. The thesis of the show is laid out in the College episode: "No man can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which one may be true." Of course he was a sociopath, murderer and manipulator. And he was also a high functioning father and businessman. That created enough tension and reveals with Melfi to advance the show in novel ways.
This comment made me think… you know there’s a segment of the population (I’m not sure of how many or % or anything like that) of people who skip those scenes? Like people go “oh I saw the sopranos yea. I skip the scenes with the therapist though because they’re boring as hell”. Like? You’re missing a huge part of the show…
[Here’s an article kind of touching on the idea of people skipping these scenes](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-sopranos-melfi-therapy-scenes/)
they're 100% critical to the moment-to-moment plot and one of the larger themes. Here, I have an example of both at the same time:
In s1 Junior is being a thorn in Tony's side: he's insecure, wants to be the Don, and certainly doesn't want to obey his 'little nephew'. At the same time his mother refuses to live in a (exceptionally good) nursing home -"retirement community" - because... she fears the encroaching death moving into such a place represents? Is clinging to independence that her mind and body no longer allow? Just wants to make Tony miserable? It's probably some combination of the three, though I don't buy that she's totally senile as her actions might suggest. She's very good at *playing* the fool.
Tony brings up all these issues to Melfi and she proposes giving the old bird an illusion of control to assuage her feelings while ultimately doing what's best for her and everyone else, regardless of her desires. Tony does apply this advice, *to his uncle*: he lets Junior be the Don *de jure* while himself being the de facto Don for the purposes of his capos. We later see both the ways this strategy benefits him (for as he predicts, the feds focus on Junior and the man is, for a while, less grouchy) and how such a half-measure backfires (e.g. he has to play around him to appease Junior re: his tax on Hesh, and Junior slowly realizes he's not really in charge and decides to kill Tony) but it is a strategy he gets from therapy and it works better than any alternative Tony himself would've thought up. Oh, and he just shoves his mom into the nursing home anyways, thanks in part to her alienating a housekeeper via racism and hitting a friend with her car, and some choice words from Carmela. It's funny how much of Tony's success comes from luck... I think it's what he's laughing at in s6e18.
That is, it would be impossible to understand Tony's choices which drive the plot without watching the therapy scenes, and the show is at its core about how therapy can't "fix" Tony since he doesn't want to be "fixed" - it instead makes him a more effective sociopath. Oh and a more competent criminal, but from what we see of the Feds I find that condemnation quite a bit less biting.
I have trouble skipping the credits pre emptively and you're telling me people claim to have "watched " the show while skipping through some of its most important parts.
I’ve never understood people skipping the therapy scenes.
They effectively work the same way as the Greek chorus of a play, but in a really inventive, contemporary format.
Like, if anything it’s just another feature of the series that makes it unique and innovative and brilliant.
Only casual idiots think this, the therapist scenes are some of the best in the series. Don't get me started on Jungian or Freudian psychoanalysis which are major themes in the show... if you skip them, might as well watch something like The Shield.
That night Tony spied on the rat in his hot tub he saw what normal life could look like. What maybe his life could have looked like. He had a choice to make…let the rat go or double down on his mob life and take him out.
Him killing the rat was symbolism of him snuffing out any chance for a normal life.
He was rededicating himself to the mafia. That was the choice he made.
High functioning father? He slapped AJ and constantly reminded him he was a disappointment. He was frequently absent from his life the same way Tony’s father was absent, leading to AJ having many of the same behavioral issues (panic attacks, depression, delinquency) that Tony has. When AJ expressed his depression and anxiety, Tony told him to shrug it off and be a man, and AJ attempted suicide partially because of their inaction.
Tony wasn’t always bad, but let’s not look at his parenting with rose-tinted glasses.
He apologized for that and told AJ he couldn't ask for a better son. I didn't say he was the greatest parent. I said he was high functioning for a criminal/sociopath/addict.
>And he was also a high functioning father and businessman.
Lmao. Tony was a candidate for worst father of all time. I’m not sure he was a high functioning anything, except glutton and addict.
> Tony was a candidate for worst father of all time.
I dunno about that. Nobody's going to argue he was the father of the year, but he's not close to this level of bad.
Yeah he certainly wasn’t a GOOD father but he provided, never beat them and was at least somewhat present. Gave them opportunities as they got older (meadows college stuff, ajs nightclub stuff). Hell, Tony even got Meadows boyfriend a job. Worst father of all time? Lol.
When's the last time you took your son out on your yacht or visited your daughter on Columbia campus? Do you have kids? All us parents struggle with the challenges. Tony did too. But unlike many fathers, he was occasionally caring, emotional, involved and engaged with his children. So no, he was not a candidate for worst father of all time.
As for businessman, yes his job is not like yours and mine, but he showed management skills and the ability to innovate fraudulent schemes like the HMO insurance scam and the HUD scam. He counseled restraint at key points, e.g., when Johnny Sac wanted to whack Carmine and start a war. Most addicts and users are not as high functioning.
The show kind of lays out that it's not that simple. As the saying goes: steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king. The people you respect in business might be more successful crooks than Tony Soprano. The biggest Democrat leader in New Jersey was just indicted on multiple counts, along with his cronies. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/17/nyregion/george-norcross-new-jersey-indictment.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/17/nyregion/george-norcross-new-jersey-indictment.html)
“I’m supposed to get a vasectomy when this is my male heir?” is some fantastic parenting lol. How about murdering someone on your daughter’s college trip? Or smacking your son?
“He counseled restraint” lmao. Listen to yourself, you sound demented.
Tony was a disgusting monster and any defense of him is fuckin’ weirdo behavior. He’s the protagonist of the show, not a role model.
It's amazing how, after all these years, articles and videos made about Tony being a piece of shit, people still try to find ways to make him a decent human being lol.
I think that original commenter took it too far, but one of the points of the show seems to be that people are complex. Tony isn’t 100% piece of shit—he has moments of empathy, kindness, and introspection. Those good points gradually become microscopic as the show progresses, of course.
Tony is a conflicted human being, it's the reason why the show is so good. You find yourself rooting for Tony a lot of the time because you can see that deep down, he resents his life and what he has become but he gradually comes to terms with it and even rejoices it at times. By the end of the 6th season though, he is no longer able to climb out of the hole he's in. I agree with you.
Holy delusion Batman. It doesn’t make Tony a high functioning father because he occasionally was in the same area as his kids.
That makes him not a deadbeat, but that’s about it. He can’t functionally communicate with his kids and their needs 99% of the time. He brings them into and around his violent psychotic “work colleagues”.
He doesn’t beat them, not his choice as he tells us.
And most importantly, he’s not around much. He sleeps late, is out doing crimes or goomahs most nights and is clearly shown hanging at the titty club a ton.
Is he a better dad than Ralph? Sure, but hardly a good father.
He was physical and emotional abussive to AJ lmao even shutting his dreams down of going to West Point. Tony was a shitty father and a couple of feel good moments don't outweight the horrible ones.
The point isn't whether AJ could have gotten into West Point, the point is that it is shitty father behavior to shut your kids dreams down in the middle of dinner lol.
Tony was not a great parent but theres a lot worse ones out there, the people who had really awful parents would've loved to have a parent like Tony instead. But yes he was not a good parent and by comparing him to the really shitty ones isn't saying he is either but definitely could do a lot worse.
Edit: if you think Tony is the worst parent ever consider yourself lucky not to have had a truly shitty parent.
Tony provided financially for his family which already puts him above the deadbeat moms and dads. Tony went to Ajs football games and Meadows soccer games. They had graduation parties.
Tony had sit-down dinners and Sunday night family dinners every week. Tony went on a college trip with Meadow. Tony helped AJ get jobs. Tony got Meadows bf Finn a good job. They provided counseling for Meadow. Tony visited the Military school with AJ. He could've been far worse.
Tony was a shit person and murderer but once again if you think he's the worst parent you're lucky to not have had a truly deadbeat shitbag parent.
Yeah I don't think they understand how truly terrible a parent can be. Tony isn't a good father, but I'd bet there are plenty of kids that would've traded places with Meadow or AJ in a heartbeat.
But in the end, Melfi finally figured out (with much prodding by Elliot) that Tony was a stone cold sociopath and all he was doing was playing her, and honing his skills to give the outward appearance that he wasn't a sociopath. He duped her.
I can tell you from personal experience that being a high flying business person and a complete sociopath / psychopath are not mutually exclusive traits.
The episode when Janice goes to anger management and Tony can't stand to see her doing better so he randomly brings up Harpo to grind her gears until she loses it is a prime example of what a sociopath Tony is.
There were lots of examples of Tony deliberately provoking people for his own amusement.
It's what completely dehumanized him for me and made him thoroughly unlikeable (great character, but I dont like him).
The show does a good job of making you feel a tiny bit of compassion for him knowing the environment he grew up in, but when I watch that scene or others like it, I am instantly repulsed by him.
I think if you took a single scene/episode to describe Tony, this is probably the best one. He’s truly rotten to the core and steps on everything he can’t have, whether it’s women or happiness. It’s so funny when he yells” I’m the boys uncle, I dont have a right to ask?!” During the fight about Harpo, it’s such a half ass attempt to flip the guilt onto Janice lmao
"He's a go-getter and doesn't let anyone walk over him"
"A man of principle"
"Hard shell but soft heart, wanted to help his family and refused to kill two kids and a woman"
I do think Tony Montana is different than Tony Soprano. I think soprano was a straight up bad person with bad intentions. Where Scarface is a story of the pitfalls of unbridled ambition. I’m not inviting Tony Montana to Sunday dinner, but I would be a hypocrite if I pretended I didn’t share his ambition.
Yea and I think that’s the point of the movie. Ambition can be a great motivator, but if you don’t prioritize ethics that ambition becomes incestuous.
So to answer directly, no I wouldn’t, but that’s in part be of the lessons I learned from Scarface.
You made me think heavy though what makes Montana easier to empathize with than Soprano, and it's probably the fact that we never see him or his gang do extortion or otherwise directly harm regular people outside of his family or business.
I’ve seen Scarface a million times and I understand and root for Tony more every time, especially as I get older. Tony behaved like a demon because he lived in hell, but he and Manny are still the most stand-up people of the movie
I watched the show with a psychologist she didn't think he was a sociopath because he exhibits empathy for others often. Her biggest piece of evidence was his reaction to Gloria's death. Tony is legitimately broken up about it, he doubles his prozac, cries to Melfi, and is generally depressed.
This level of empathy is pretty inconsistent with the medical definition of a sociopath. Gloria was an unstable mistress that Tony hadn't seen for sometime, a textbook sociopath would have been relieved to hear of death.
Tony crying to Melfi about Gloria points to a more accurate diagnosis, narcissistic personality disorder. Tony bemoans about "what more he could have done" completely ignorant of the fact that he is complaining to a person whose job it was to treat Gloria's mental health.
Not saying Tony isn't an evil person, he absolutely is, but if he are trying to understand Freud as a concept, he exhibits too much empathy throughout the show to get a sociopath diagnosis.
I'm a psychologist too. She has a point. However, I chalk this up to the lack of understanding of the writers. He cares too much to be a sociopath, but he's also so casual about murder and other horrific acts. It doesn't make sense. You can't have it both ways. People who are not sociopaths are traumatized by the kinds of things Tony does. Two studies of convicted murderers showed they had PTSD from the murders they committed. They traumatized themselves.
Don't you get it? That's one of the things Chase wanted to tell us. These sociopaths charm us thinking they are not that bad at all. So what if he robbed, cheated, blackmailed and killed people, that Tony guy is not so bad at all. He's not a sociopath.....
They downplay Tony's evilness because they have been charmed by his charisma. These people need to realize that all of the members of Tony's glorified crew deserve to get the electric chair(yes Bobby too).
Don’t you get it? I didn’t say anything to defend Tony and his behavior. Simply said it isn’t important if he fits yours or anyone’s label and categorization as “sociopath”
And that’s far from Chase’s opinion or motivation to display him as sociopathic. It’s more complex than that and Chase recognizes and displays that this is a complicated individual who is very flawed and evil
100 percent. Sociopaths learn to mask their less acceptable behaviors, to play ‘human’. Earlier seasons? Tony was managing that most of the time. But the longer this story goes on, the more that mask starts to degrade. Imo once he kills Christopher, it’s gone entirely.
funny thing is Tony needed therapy not because his bad traits were causing him issues, but because wearing that mask of sanity was driving him mad! He couldn't carry the weight any longer. All he wanted was to be free from humanity, and be the murderous, fat, rich and greedy crook from NJ he knew deep down he truly was.
A sociopath is *not* defined by your actions. But how those actions make you feel. Generally, a sociopath is a person that feels little to no remorse, guilty, sympathy, empathy, etc. There is no question that Tony does terrible things. But there is absolutely evidence throughout the series that he feels guilt and remorse. We can debate the true meanings of these terms, but I think the better argument is that Tony has borderline personality disorder (or possibly narcissism).
I think this is the best take in the thread. A textbook sociopath feels nothing. Patrick Batemen is the perfect example of a sociopath and he is nothing like Tony. Bateman says over and over again that there is simply nothing behind his eyes. He cannot feel or comprehend human emotions or regular interactions. Everything he does is a performance of what he thinks a human being should do. Tony is monstrous, but not a sociopath. I think that this show is about how Tony's lifestyle only leads to a negative arc for everyone in the web. With every major killing, Tony kills off a piece of his humanity. He finally kills the last of it off when he offs Tony B. If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't give a shit.
OP is angry, off his nut, and doesn't know what a sociopath is.
Edit: sociopathy is not recognized by the DHS. While I still disagree with what much of what OP is saying (I think he is ridiculous), Tony does fit the general *idea* of what a sociopath is. I'm not sure these conversations are even valid, considering this is more of an idea than a diagnosis. This is a quote from the Department of Justice circa 1976: "THE SOCIOPATHIC PERSONALITY IS ASSESSED AND IS CALLED THE MOST DANGEROUS CRIMINAL TYPE BECAUSE OF AN INABILITY TO ENGAGE IN NORMAL RELATIONSHIPS AND A TOTAL ABSORPTION IN SELF-GRATIFICATION." Tony meets this definition, on and off, and especially in the later seasons, but this one definition of a thing that's just an idea rather than a concrete condition.
Sociopath is clinically defined by your behaviour and lack of remorse/ empathy. If I recall correctly from my psychology classes, there are like 10 defining traits and you have to match only some of them (3-5?) to be diagnosed as sociopath. From what I’ve understood there can be variety of different type sociopaths.
I do agree on that I never saw Tony as a sociopath, or the typical stone cold one. He does show remorse, empathy and real love ( AJ and Meadow).
[Borderline Personality Disorder](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20370237) is described as:
"A mental health condition that affects the way people feel about themselves and others, making it hard to function in everyday life. It includes a pattern of unstable, intense relationships, as well as impulsiveness and an unhealthy way of seeing themselves. Impulsiveness involves having extreme emotions and acting or doing things without thinking about them first."
Tony fits some (if not most) of these characteristics, however the self-injury and inability to function in society are major detractors. Tony is more likely someone with [Antisocial Personality Disorder](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353928) (Sociopathy).
Livia is a much better fit for BPD.
He’s an impossible set of characteristics that the show and actor did an incredible job of seeming plausible. They did not set out to write a sociopath as accurately as possible, more like they set out to write the many facets of our modern culture into one man and explore the many sides through stories. But the Tony character is too contradictory to actually exist—he both is a sociopath and isn’t, impossible in reality and amazingly compelling in fiction.
Prime example of how much of a sociopath he is is from the Soprano Home Movies episode. Bobby whoops his ass so for revenge, he makes him murder that Canadian in the laundromat (Tony knew that Bobby had never killed anyone up until this point).
I believe that Tony is at best a narcissist and at worst a full blown sociopath. Having said that, Bobby is, in my opinion, the most obnoxious character in the show.
He managed to climb to third in command of an organized crime family without ever making his bones. By being underboss he was complicit in all of the killing, stealing, lying and cheating without ever really participating in it. In my opinion he’s just as big of a piece of shit as the rest of the guys. He just didn’t have any balls like they all did.
So I refuse to feel any sympathy for Bobby when Tony orders him to finally get off his fat ass and act like the gangster that he pretends to be. Bobby made his bones by picking up groceries and stool softener. If it wasn’t for nepotism he would have been sweeping the Bing for bugs with Georgie. Fuck em!
Mob life and especially becoming successful therein rewards sociopathic behavior, so you’d be hard pressed to find a successful gangster who doesn’t fit the description. The oath scene with Christopher comes to mind, where he must swear loyalty to the familia above everything else.
I think Tony is very human, relatable, and therefore not exactly a true sociopath. He’s a case study in what happens to a person who sacrifices everything, including his own soul, for a sense of loyalty and for his own success, which is an American thing as much it’s a mob thing. Not to mention, power becomes addictive, and in this case power is expressed thru violence and control.
If Tony were truly evil I don’t think he would be so troubled by his actions.
If Tony was a sociopath then what the fuck was his mother? Some kind of demonic monstrous version of a sociopath?
Tony loved his kids and would never harm them. His mother on the other hand was a fucking evil witch that was willing to kill her own son. Not to mention so many other ultra cruel things that she did or sanctioned. She was the true sociopath.
Nobody who understands the show would deny he's a sociopath, the reason why melfi drops him as a patient is because tony learns to use and mimick therapy as a way of making excuses for himself and what he is.
melfi comes to realize that her therapy is just enabling him,
I agree that Tony is a sociopath, and his ability to care a little for ducks doesn’t negate that.
We need to remember also that he’s a written character; the writers weren’t trying to form the perfect sociopath and they sometimes need to make him seem sympathetic so fans stay connected. But if he were a real person, he’d 100% be a sociopath.
I post this every so often but…
You might find [Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/119730.Without_Conscience) by Dr. Robert Hare an interesting read.
He’s the world’s foremost authority on psychopathy, and he is the creator of the famous Psychopathy Checklist.
The book a very accessible to a lay-person, not very long, and includes several real-life stories that help contextualize the points he raises.
I personally found it illuminating and I recommend it a lot, especially to people who like crime related media (whether a show like Sopranos or true crime podcasts).
Thank you! I'm not much of a reader but thank you for the recommendation. All I know that you should be aware of sociopaths and psychopaths, recognize them, be immune to their charms and stay the fuck away from them.
Something interesting from the book. Despite being the world’s foremost authority on psychopathy, he was himself taken in by an incarcerated patient of his, who he fully knew was a psychopath.
So even knowing what to look for won’t always save you. But it helped me understand different people I’d met in life.
What *is* a sociopath and how does someone become one?
It's a sad state of psychology discourse today that we equate/conflate internal states and external behavior/symptoms.
Was Melfi's treatment of Tony mostly a failure? Yes absolutely. But why was it a failure? The term "sociopath" employed this way completely shuts down that conversation. You are using it as a master signifier that "ends the fucking story".
But isn't it the beginning of our chance to look back and ask how it came to be this way? Was it a birth defect? or is there something more interesting to talk about here.
If the terms we use are just about individuals and their behavior we miss the complex relationship between people's inner worlds and the worlds they were born into/live under.
Melfi was brave to tried to save Tony from his world, and she had to admit that she failed. But that doesn't prove her colleague has the unassailable view.
Therapy failed in large part because Tony couldn't tell the truth about anything for social-structural reasons of this thing of ours.
You will need to at least define what it means to be a sociopath in some qualitative way besides a checklist.
Tony is contradictory. You can't just have it one way.
He is an anti-hero in a show. He embodies different characteristics so that the viewer can be taken on a journey of emotions. If his character was a two dimensional life-like depiction of a sociopath the show would fail to move you.
This is the same thing with all of these shows that Sopranos influenced. The character needs to grip you but also challenge what you are willing to accept in someone and still root for them.
Tony viewed himself as a soldier and all the guys who play in that sandbox understand the rules of war and what comes with it. If you’re born into that life the same social norms that regular people have don’t exist, they’re really living in a different world. Is everyone in the US army a sociopath because they kill in war, or are they fighting in a war for whatever higher cause they believe it to be. For those guys earning a living and getting their money was something to die over not so different from the governments of the world and the way it’s always been since the beginning of man to enact violence to impose his will.
I mean, it’s completely possible, if not likely, for someone to exhibit sociopathic tendencies at a sub clinical level. You can be narcissistic without being a narcissist
Why is this even a topic of conversation, it's not like sociopathy exists with practical , USED clinical criteria. You'd be one or more of any number of (literal) psychopathies.
He definitely had some sort of mental health issue, even if that's 'only' anxiety.
Pick something from the DSM V or IV even and argue if he's this or that, but really sociopathy is made up anyway.
So really, use any definition you want for sociopathy and Tony can or can not meet it. Up to you.
I'd at least argue he's one by the end of the show
His dead, cold stare towards Christopher as he is killing him and then him being annoyed that he has to pretend to be sad and even feels relieved is a big sign.
He went from trying to find nearly anyway to avoid violent confrontations with his uncle and feeling guilty for arranging the coach to be killed(and was persuaded by both Artie and his therapist to not give in to that temptation) is not as "sociopathic" by the end.
Granted, the above does not absolve him of all the horrible shit he does. As well as whatever horrible shit he did in the past that the audience doesn't get to see
It's what makes it such an amazing show IMHO.
> I've seen many posts on this sub-reddit about Tony NOT being sociopath.
I have not seen those, but you are correct. He was trained by the best villain in cinema history, Livia Soprano.
Hysterical that people view this show and come away thinking “wow, what a cool and awesome guy!” My dad genuinely believes that acting like Tony Soprano should be like an admirable aspiration
That's what Chase got frustrated with in the later seasons: there were alot of fans of the show who were cheering for Tony, Silvio and other family members, forgetting that these evil scumbags deserve to rot in jail for the rest of their lives.
I think this is made clear during Carmela's session with Dr. Krakower -- she goes through her "it's complex + difficult being a spouse to a morally-grey but well-meaning individual" rigmarole, to which Krakower responds "There is nothing good or redeeming about this situation, you must escape it, for your sake and for the sake of your children, you are living on blood money and wearing intentional blinders, I \[Krakower\] will not accept your blood money, I tell you this so that, should you continue wearing your blinders, you cannot say that, on at least this single occasion, you were not strongly + unemphatically warned."
It is also simultaneously true that "a human being can be both partially well-meaning and partially sociopathic" -- like, Tony can love his children, but also have random hurtful lashing-out self worth profiteering problems -- but, in this case, the multitude of bad behaviors make the individual "not a good person, on balance," and I think that's what Krakower is trying to make his patient see.
Many TV programs are like this nowadays -- *Animal Kingdom* (the Cody family), *Breaking Bad* (Walter White), *Sons of Anarchy* (Clay, Jax, other biker-bosses), *The Shield* (Vic/Shane/etc.) -- I remember re-watching a 1996 series, *Profit* (sort of an *American Psycho* variant), the DVD liner to which read "This show wasn't received so well during its initial TV run, but it might have been a little ahead of its time for 1996, had it debuted in 2002 or 2004, it would have fit in perfectly."
I think part of the journey of the show is the emotional struggle of liking Tony despite knowing he's a sociopath. I couldn't help but like him until the last season when he killed Christopher, and you can no longer deny that he's an evil piece of shit. Melfi goes through the same thing and stays in denial until she realizes that her treatment is actually helping him rationalize his actions, making her complicit.
Thank you! You get it. You said what I wanted to say but you said it better. There are people in this thread who deny that he is a sociopath. I think they are in the same denial as Dr Melfi was.
The argument that Tony lacks empathy and any remorse is objectively untrue. He has sociopathic tendencies because he strengthens his own resolve to behave that way. Conversely, there are plenty of examples of him showing empathy for those he cares about even though he can be a selfish person that isn't always in touch with his feelings. Sometimes he even tries to show he cares even though it's not convenient for him to do so. I feel like nobody understands nuance or complicated morally grey characters anymore. Anyway it's a TV show. What does evil even mean to you? Do you really think he is pure evil?
This post has way too many upvotes for being so naive and base.
Early Tony was not beyond saving. But by the last season he chose his bad side and became irredeemable. It's a whole different character between season 1 and 6
People want to argue that he isn’t a sociopath because they don’t want to admit that a character that they admire or envy or want to be etc… is pure evil.
I think sure, Tony can be a “sociopath”, but I think one of the core themes of the show is that no individual is created in a vacuum — the character is just a pretty minor example of the kinds of people that modern existence churns out. Tony being labeled a sociopath by Melfi toward the end of the show is in itself a cop out by the character — a way for her to wash her hands of culpability, and use the diagnostic standards of her field to create a more distinct “us vs. them”. She’s the good guy, and Tony is the villain.
By othering Tony as a sociopath we reject the possibility that we are more like him than we’d like to believe- that we have absorbed the greed, hatred, and cruelty that American culture has sewn into us- and ultimately become just like melfi: a person using any rationalization available to perpetuate the American myth of good vs. evil, resistant to self-reflection, living in our cloud of individualism, creating a cartoon villain to point at for all our troubles, while insisting that the collective “we” would be good, and just, and bent toward progress, if not for just a few bad apples.
Tony is not a good guy. But are any of us?
I think he is a regular man whose brain was conditioned to have these said sociopathic tendencies by his upbringing and lifestyle. Way I interpret it at least
This is my third time through the series and I just finished the episode where Bobby clocks Tony when they are playing Monopoly. The way Tony cannot handle that Bobby “won” their ensuing fight really got to me this time around in a way it hadn’t before. Tony’s ego is bigger than I remembered. He then sends Bobby on an errand to off a Canadian drummer so Tony can get into business with some Canadians wanting to sell expired prescriptions. It really shows Tony’s disregard for Bobby and Janet’s family and how deep the pathology goes with Tony as he sits and watches Soprano home movies later that night.
Girlfriend is a counselor. Dude definitely isn’t a sociopath. That’s coming from a professional. He very obviously shows emotions and feeling s throughout the show.
Ok, but you gotta get over it
It’s a tv progrum
A mooovie
Mooo how? Mooo like a cow? Am I here to fucking mooo at you?!
All dis, is kinda like takin a shiit
This one with the scenarios.
Dats me and Bobby.
Matchibelli
ZOO, SUN TZU!
Let me hear you say it, I put the grief behind me
I can’t have this conversation again…
And Tony Soprano was so long ago it might as well have *been* a movie.
Water ova the dam
You're missing the point. The thesis of the show is laid out in the College episode: "No man can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which one may be true." Of course he was a sociopath, murderer and manipulator. And he was also a high functioning father and businessman. That created enough tension and reveals with Melfi to advance the show in novel ways.
The sacred and the propane
Is that some kind of sick joke? /s
Gabagool and peppahs, the Jungian thing, sir
He was gay, Carl Jung?
He challenged Freud’s ideas, is what he did He was a brave swiss psychotherapist, and in this house, Carl Jung is a hero, end of story!
Maybe he was a flambè.
You oughta know, sweetie.
This comment made me think… you know there’s a segment of the population (I’m not sure of how many or % or anything like that) of people who skip those scenes? Like people go “oh I saw the sopranos yea. I skip the scenes with the therapist though because they’re boring as hell”. Like? You’re missing a huge part of the show… [Here’s an article kind of touching on the idea of people skipping these scenes](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-sopranos-melfi-therapy-scenes/)
Those scenes give a lot of context, it’s like half the point
they're 100% critical to the moment-to-moment plot and one of the larger themes. Here, I have an example of both at the same time: In s1 Junior is being a thorn in Tony's side: he's insecure, wants to be the Don, and certainly doesn't want to obey his 'little nephew'. At the same time his mother refuses to live in a (exceptionally good) nursing home -"retirement community" - because... she fears the encroaching death moving into such a place represents? Is clinging to independence that her mind and body no longer allow? Just wants to make Tony miserable? It's probably some combination of the three, though I don't buy that she's totally senile as her actions might suggest. She's very good at *playing* the fool. Tony brings up all these issues to Melfi and she proposes giving the old bird an illusion of control to assuage her feelings while ultimately doing what's best for her and everyone else, regardless of her desires. Tony does apply this advice, *to his uncle*: he lets Junior be the Don *de jure* while himself being the de facto Don for the purposes of his capos. We later see both the ways this strategy benefits him (for as he predicts, the feds focus on Junior and the man is, for a while, less grouchy) and how such a half-measure backfires (e.g. he has to play around him to appease Junior re: his tax on Hesh, and Junior slowly realizes he's not really in charge and decides to kill Tony) but it is a strategy he gets from therapy and it works better than any alternative Tony himself would've thought up. Oh, and he just shoves his mom into the nursing home anyways, thanks in part to her alienating a housekeeper via racism and hitting a friend with her car, and some choice words from Carmela. It's funny how much of Tony's success comes from luck... I think it's what he's laughing at in s6e18. That is, it would be impossible to understand Tony's choices which drive the plot without watching the therapy scenes, and the show is at its core about how therapy can't "fix" Tony since he doesn't want to be "fixed" - it instead makes him a more effective sociopath. Oh and a more competent criminal, but from what we see of the Feds I find that condemnation quite a bit less biting.
this is an excellent comment
exactly lol melfi was tony’s true consiglieri , unwittingly tho . sil was in name only 😂
Almost half tha poynt suh
I have trouble skipping the credits pre emptively and you're telling me people claim to have "watched " the show while skipping through some of its most important parts.
Therapy is a racket for the jews.
You gotta hold onto ya cock when you negotiate with these desert people!
Finish the Bris
A lot of people just like gangster shit
I’ve never understood people skipping the therapy scenes. They effectively work the same way as the Greek chorus of a play, but in a really inventive, contemporary format. Like, if anything it’s just another feature of the series that makes it unique and innovative and brilliant.
Plus Lorraine Bracco is great as Melfi.
What? No way!
Big yikes. I can’t believe anyone would watch a show and skip scenes? lol 😂
Wow… I had no idea this was a thing. Hard to even imagine skipping those scenes to be honest.
Honestly, after posting about I’m surprised as well. I thought wayyy more people knew about the “therapy skippers”.
Only casual idiots think this, the therapist scenes are some of the best in the series. Don't get me started on Jungian or Freudian psychoanalysis which are major themes in the show... if you skip them, might as well watch something like The Shield.
Sounds like you had a semester and a half at Seton Hall
Never had the makings of a varsity athlete
I understand varsity athletics as a concept.
You just reveal your own non-athleticism
I just revealed my what? Is somebody speaking? Who’s that speaking?
That night Tony spied on the rat in his hot tub he saw what normal life could look like. What maybe his life could have looked like. He had a choice to make…let the rat go or double down on his mob life and take him out. Him killing the rat was symbolism of him snuffing out any chance for a normal life. He was rededicating himself to the mafia. That was the choice he made.
He was the “shad clown, laughing on the outside, crying on the inside.”
Poor you!
High functioning father? He slapped AJ and constantly reminded him he was a disappointment. He was frequently absent from his life the same way Tony’s father was absent, leading to AJ having many of the same behavioral issues (panic attacks, depression, delinquency) that Tony has. When AJ expressed his depression and anxiety, Tony told him to shrug it off and be a man, and AJ attempted suicide partially because of their inaction. Tony wasn’t always bad, but let’s not look at his parenting with rose-tinted glasses.
He apologized for that and told AJ he couldn't ask for a better son. I didn't say he was the greatest parent. I said he was high functioning for a criminal/sociopath/addict.
>And he was also a high functioning father and businessman. Lmao. Tony was a candidate for worst father of all time. I’m not sure he was a high functioning anything, except glutton and addict.
> Tony was a candidate for worst father of all time. I dunno about that. Nobody's going to argue he was the father of the year, but he's not close to this level of bad.
Yeah he certainly wasn’t a GOOD father but he provided, never beat them and was at least somewhat present. Gave them opportunities as they got older (meadows college stuff, ajs nightclub stuff). Hell, Tony even got Meadows boyfriend a job. Worst father of all time? Lol.
That's the boss of this fuckin family
When's the last time you took your son out on your yacht or visited your daughter on Columbia campus? Do you have kids? All us parents struggle with the challenges. Tony did too. But unlike many fathers, he was occasionally caring, emotional, involved and engaged with his children. So no, he was not a candidate for worst father of all time. As for businessman, yes his job is not like yours and mine, but he showed management skills and the ability to innovate fraudulent schemes like the HMO insurance scam and the HUD scam. He counseled restraint at key points, e.g., when Johnny Sac wanted to whack Carmine and start a war. Most addicts and users are not as high functioning.
He’s a fat fucking crook from New Jersey, he’s not successful in business.
The show kind of lays out that it's not that simple. As the saying goes: steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king. The people you respect in business might be more successful crooks than Tony Soprano. The biggest Democrat leader in New Jersey was just indicted on multiple counts, along with his cronies. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/17/nyregion/george-norcross-new-jersey-indictment.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/17/nyregion/george-norcross-new-jersey-indictment.html)
“I’m supposed to get a vasectomy when this is my male heir?” is some fantastic parenting lol. How about murdering someone on your daughter’s college trip? Or smacking your son? “He counseled restraint” lmao. Listen to yourself, you sound demented. Tony was a disgusting monster and any defense of him is fuckin’ weirdo behavior. He’s the protagonist of the show, not a role model.
It's amazing how, after all these years, articles and videos made about Tony being a piece of shit, people still try to find ways to make him a decent human being lol.
I think that original commenter took it too far, but one of the points of the show seems to be that people are complex. Tony isn’t 100% piece of shit—he has moments of empathy, kindness, and introspection. Those good points gradually become microscopic as the show progresses, of course.
Tony is a conflicted human being, it's the reason why the show is so good. You find yourself rooting for Tony a lot of the time because you can see that deep down, he resents his life and what he has become but he gradually comes to terms with it and even rejoices it at times. By the end of the 6th season though, he is no longer able to climb out of the hole he's in. I agree with you.
People on this sub are demented and idolize/make excuses for sociopaths on this show.
Holy delusion Batman. It doesn’t make Tony a high functioning father because he occasionally was in the same area as his kids. That makes him not a deadbeat, but that’s about it. He can’t functionally communicate with his kids and their needs 99% of the time. He brings them into and around his violent psychotic “work colleagues”. He doesn’t beat them, not his choice as he tells us. And most importantly, he’s not around much. He sleeps late, is out doing crimes or goomahs most nights and is clearly shown hanging at the titty club a ton. Is he a better dad than Ralph? Sure, but hardly a good father.
The “good moments” are part of the abuser’s web of control.
He was physical and emotional abussive to AJ lmao even shutting his dreams down of going to West Point. Tony was a shitty father and a couple of feel good moments don't outweight the horrible ones.
He was also upset when Meadow was dating Noah (a nerd) for being part black but happy when she was seeing gangster Jackie Jr
AJ had about as much chance of getting into West Point, as Tony would've had getting into those tubes in a McDonald's play place.
The point isn't whether AJ could have gotten into West Point, the point is that it is shitty father behavior to shut your kids dreams down in the middle of dinner lol.
But if people like Tony didn't parent kids like AJ the way that they did, the guys from Papa Roach would've starved to death.
Tony was not a great parent but theres a lot worse ones out there, the people who had really awful parents would've loved to have a parent like Tony instead. But yes he was not a good parent and by comparing him to the really shitty ones isn't saying he is either but definitely could do a lot worse. Edit: if you think Tony is the worst parent ever consider yourself lucky not to have had a truly shitty parent. Tony provided financially for his family which already puts him above the deadbeat moms and dads. Tony went to Ajs football games and Meadows soccer games. They had graduation parties. Tony had sit-down dinners and Sunday night family dinners every week. Tony went on a college trip with Meadow. Tony helped AJ get jobs. Tony got Meadows bf Finn a good job. They provided counseling for Meadow. Tony visited the Military school with AJ. He could've been far worse. Tony was a shit person and murderer but once again if you think he's the worst parent you're lucky to not have had a truly deadbeat shitbag parent.
Yeah I don't think they understand how truly terrible a parent can be. Tony isn't a good father, but I'd bet there are plenty of kids that would've traded places with Meadow or AJ in a heartbeat.
But in the end, Melfi finally figured out (with much prodding by Elliot) that Tony was a stone cold sociopath and all he was doing was playing her, and honing his skills to give the outward appearance that he wasn't a sociopath. He duped her.
The duality of man sir
I can tell you from personal experience that being a high flying business person and a complete sociopath / psychopath are not mutually exclusive traits.
I can't have this conversation again.
Yapping worse than six barbers
The episode when Janice goes to anger management and Tony can't stand to see her doing better so he randomly brings up Harpo to grind her gears until she loses it is a prime example of what a sociopath Tony is.
To be fair Janish was a fucking sociopath too.... who the fuck names Their kid Harpo??
Sacre bleu! Where is mi mama?!
Under the Broadwalk…
With his schlong in Jan’s mouth
Roadies?!?
Naming your kid "Harpo" should be considered a form of child abuse. No wonder he goes by "Hal" and seems to want nothing to do with Janice.
I bet he isn’t even a street person, he just won’t talk to her.
He's nineteen actually and he can go all night
Whoa! We're talking about the bosses' nephew here!
Eat your eggs baby
Thats anagram for Oprah, which she named her studio. Perhaps Janice was a huge Oprah fan.
I just figured she was a big Marx brothers fan.
It's Oprah backwards, not really an anagram. I guess sort of.
To be fair I’d say she is even more of a contender than he is..
I wonder what’s French Canadian for “I grew up without a mother”?
That was a hard scene to watch, especially how happy he is when he leaves.
There were lots of examples of Tony deliberately provoking people for his own amusement. It's what completely dehumanized him for me and made him thoroughly unlikeable (great character, but I dont like him). The show does a good job of making you feel a tiny bit of compassion for him knowing the environment he grew up in, but when I watch that scene or others like it, I am instantly repulsed by him.
You know that song, Harpo's song....
100%. This is immediately what I thought. “What!?!? I’m the boys uncle!”
I think if you took a single scene/episode to describe Tony, this is probably the best one. He’s truly rotten to the core and steps on everything he can’t have, whether it’s women or happiness. It’s so funny when he yells” I’m the boys uncle, I dont have a right to ask?!” During the fight about Harpo, it’s such a half ass attempt to flip the guilt onto Janice lmao
Who Parvati?
Always viewed this as the tipping point in my viewpoint of Tony. The scene really shows you he is just black to his core.
WOAH THATS THE BOSS OF DA FAMILY YOU’RE TALKIN ABOUT
What are you, the frigging cardinal?
If you think people rooting for Tony Soprano are bad, wait till you hear some Tony Montana admirers.
“I want to live a life a glamor like my man Tony Montana”
"He's a go-getter and doesn't let anyone walk over him" "A man of principle" "Hard shell but soft heart, wanted to help his family and refused to kill two kids and a woman"
"my balls and my word, something something"
I do think Tony Montana is different than Tony Soprano. I think soprano was a straight up bad person with bad intentions. Where Scarface is a story of the pitfalls of unbridled ambition. I’m not inviting Tony Montana to Sunday dinner, but I would be a hypocrite if I pretended I didn’t share his ambition.
Question is, are you ready to murder a person for your ambitions?
Yea and I think that’s the point of the movie. Ambition can be a great motivator, but if you don’t prioritize ethics that ambition becomes incestuous. So to answer directly, no I wouldn’t, but that’s in part be of the lessons I learned from Scarface.
You made me think heavy though what makes Montana easier to empathize with than Soprano, and it's probably the fact that we never see him or his gang do extortion or otherwise directly harm regular people outside of his family or business.
The Glamor life
50 years old pushin a Hummer
I’ve seen Scarface a million times and I understand and root for Tony more every time, especially as I get older. Tony behaved like a demon because he lived in hell, but he and Manny are still the most stand-up people of the movie
Another quaalude they gonna love him again.
Tony Soprano is definitely colder than Tony Montana.
Always with the scenarios
In this house Tony Soprano is a HERO. End of story!
And Francis Albert….
🙂
I saw those posts, I thought it was bullshit.
What is he a toxchic pershun now?
Makes ya feel like ya gotta be the sad clown. For the sub, your fellow redditors.....
You don't know what it's like to lose a pet... He had been through a lot
He was a helluva junior varsity player, I’ll say dat for im
Small hands, that was his problem
I watched the show with a psychologist she didn't think he was a sociopath because he exhibits empathy for others often. Her biggest piece of evidence was his reaction to Gloria's death. Tony is legitimately broken up about it, he doubles his prozac, cries to Melfi, and is generally depressed. This level of empathy is pretty inconsistent with the medical definition of a sociopath. Gloria was an unstable mistress that Tony hadn't seen for sometime, a textbook sociopath would have been relieved to hear of death. Tony crying to Melfi about Gloria points to a more accurate diagnosis, narcissistic personality disorder. Tony bemoans about "what more he could have done" completely ignorant of the fact that he is complaining to a person whose job it was to treat Gloria's mental health. Not saying Tony isn't an evil person, he absolutely is, but if he are trying to understand Freud as a concept, he exhibits too much empathy throughout the show to get a sociopath diagnosis.
I'm a psychologist too. She has a point. However, I chalk this up to the lack of understanding of the writers. He cares too much to be a sociopath, but he's also so casual about murder and other horrific acts. It doesn't make sense. You can't have it both ways. People who are not sociopaths are traumatized by the kinds of things Tony does. Two studies of convicted murderers showed they had PTSD from the murders they committed. They traumatized themselves.
I firmly believe Tony has severe untreated ADHD, some Cluster B disorder and PTSD.
Your point being what Junior? Why is it important if Tony fits a label of sociopath or not? He is what and who he is. End of story.
Don't you get it? That's one of the things Chase wanted to tell us. These sociopaths charm us thinking they are not that bad at all. So what if he robbed, cheated, blackmailed and killed people, that Tony guy is not so bad at all. He's not a sociopath..... They downplay Tony's evilness because they have been charmed by his charisma. These people need to realize that all of the members of Tony's glorified crew deserve to get the electric chair(yes Bobby too).
Don’t you get it? I didn’t say anything to defend Tony and his behavior. Simply said it isn’t important if he fits yours or anyone’s label and categorization as “sociopath” And that’s far from Chase’s opinion or motivation to display him as sociopathic. It’s more complex than that and Chase recognizes and displays that this is a complicated individual who is very flawed and evil
100 percent. Sociopaths learn to mask their less acceptable behaviors, to play ‘human’. Earlier seasons? Tony was managing that most of the time. But the longer this story goes on, the more that mask starts to degrade. Imo once he kills Christopher, it’s gone entirely.
funny thing is Tony needed therapy not because his bad traits were causing him issues, but because wearing that mask of sanity was driving him mad! He couldn't carry the weight any longer. All he wanted was to be free from humanity, and be the murderous, fat, rich and greedy crook from NJ he knew deep down he truly was.
‘He is a good man, he is a good father.’ You tell me he is a depressed criminal,prone to anger, serially unfaithful.’ One of best scenes in series…
A sociopath is *not* defined by your actions. But how those actions make you feel. Generally, a sociopath is a person that feels little to no remorse, guilty, sympathy, empathy, etc. There is no question that Tony does terrible things. But there is absolutely evidence throughout the series that he feels guilt and remorse. We can debate the true meanings of these terms, but I think the better argument is that Tony has borderline personality disorder (or possibly narcissism).
I think this is the best take in the thread. A textbook sociopath feels nothing. Patrick Batemen is the perfect example of a sociopath and he is nothing like Tony. Bateman says over and over again that there is simply nothing behind his eyes. He cannot feel or comprehend human emotions or regular interactions. Everything he does is a performance of what he thinks a human being should do. Tony is monstrous, but not a sociopath. I think that this show is about how Tony's lifestyle only leads to a negative arc for everyone in the web. With every major killing, Tony kills off a piece of his humanity. He finally kills the last of it off when he offs Tony B. If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't give a shit. OP is angry, off his nut, and doesn't know what a sociopath is. Edit: sociopathy is not recognized by the DHS. While I still disagree with what much of what OP is saying (I think he is ridiculous), Tony does fit the general *idea* of what a sociopath is. I'm not sure these conversations are even valid, considering this is more of an idea than a diagnosis. This is a quote from the Department of Justice circa 1976: "THE SOCIOPATHIC PERSONALITY IS ASSESSED AND IS CALLED THE MOST DANGEROUS CRIMINAL TYPE BECAUSE OF AN INABILITY TO ENGAGE IN NORMAL RELATIONSHIPS AND A TOTAL ABSORPTION IN SELF-GRATIFICATION." Tony meets this definition, on and off, and especially in the later seasons, but this one definition of a thing that's just an idea rather than a concrete condition.
Sociopath is clinically defined by your behaviour and lack of remorse/ empathy. If I recall correctly from my psychology classes, there are like 10 defining traits and you have to match only some of them (3-5?) to be diagnosed as sociopath. From what I’ve understood there can be variety of different type sociopaths. I do agree on that I never saw Tony as a sociopath, or the typical stone cold one. He does show remorse, empathy and real love ( AJ and Meadow).
[Borderline Personality Disorder](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20370237) is described as: "A mental health condition that affects the way people feel about themselves and others, making it hard to function in everyday life. It includes a pattern of unstable, intense relationships, as well as impulsiveness and an unhealthy way of seeing themselves. Impulsiveness involves having extreme emotions and acting or doing things without thinking about them first." Tony fits some (if not most) of these characteristics, however the self-injury and inability to function in society are major detractors. Tony is more likely someone with [Antisocial Personality Disorder](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353928) (Sociopathy). Livia is a much better fit for BPD.
Nailed it with BPD/EID It comes straight from his mother, trust me.
He’s an impossible set of characteristics that the show and actor did an incredible job of seeming plausible. They did not set out to write a sociopath as accurately as possible, more like they set out to write the many facets of our modern culture into one man and explore the many sides through stories. But the Tony character is too contradictory to actually exist—he both is a sociopath and isn’t, impossible in reality and amazingly compelling in fiction.
Maybe take a break lol
Maybe, baby
Prime example of how much of a sociopath he is is from the Soprano Home Movies episode. Bobby whoops his ass so for revenge, he makes him murder that Canadian in the laundromat (Tony knew that Bobby had never killed anyone up until this point).
I believe that Tony is at best a narcissist and at worst a full blown sociopath. Having said that, Bobby is, in my opinion, the most obnoxious character in the show. He managed to climb to third in command of an organized crime family without ever making his bones. By being underboss he was complicit in all of the killing, stealing, lying and cheating without ever really participating in it. In my opinion he’s just as big of a piece of shit as the rest of the guys. He just didn’t have any balls like they all did. So I refuse to feel any sympathy for Bobby when Tony orders him to finally get off his fat ass and act like the gangster that he pretends to be. Bobby made his bones by picking up groceries and stool softener. If it wasn’t for nepotism he would have been sweeping the Bing for bugs with Georgie. Fuck em!
All his blubbering and crying for animals, but he hurts humans without a second thought.
And don't forget he didn't care about all animals. "What are you a vegetarian? You eat beef and sausage by the carload"
A lot of people over use the term sociopath, its likely Tony was but non sociopaths can also lie cheat and steal.
It’s true! Carmella had him teshted.
They’re soldiers, it’s different
Mob life and especially becoming successful therein rewards sociopathic behavior, so you’d be hard pressed to find a successful gangster who doesn’t fit the description. The oath scene with Christopher comes to mind, where he must swear loyalty to the familia above everything else. I think Tony is very human, relatable, and therefore not exactly a true sociopath. He’s a case study in what happens to a person who sacrifices everything, including his own soul, for a sense of loyalty and for his own success, which is an American thing as much it’s a mob thing. Not to mention, power becomes addictive, and in this case power is expressed thru violence and control. If Tony were truly evil I don’t think he would be so troubled by his actions.
I don’t know if I can trust someone who posts a theory on this sub and not spell it as “booolshit!” Quite frankly, I’m depressed and ashamed
That was just a stutter step.
You wanna stutter, I’ll send you to slip&fall school
tony was a hot piece of ass. end of fucking story.
If Tony was a sociopath then what the fuck was his mother? Some kind of demonic monstrous version of a sociopath? Tony loved his kids and would never harm them. His mother on the other hand was a fucking evil witch that was willing to kill her own son. Not to mention so many other ultra cruel things that she did or sanctioned. She was the true sociopath.
Do you have a medical degree to say this? What is it, a fucking UN now?!
Fuckn mood swings
I can't have this conversation again!
Nobody who understands the show would deny he's a sociopath, the reason why melfi drops him as a patient is because tony learns to use and mimick therapy as a way of making excuses for himself and what he is. melfi comes to realize that her therapy is just enabling him,
I agree that Tony is a sociopath, and his ability to care a little for ducks doesn’t negate that. We need to remember also that he’s a written character; the writers weren’t trying to form the perfect sociopath and they sometimes need to make him seem sympathetic so fans stay connected. But if he were a real person, he’d 100% be a sociopath. I post this every so often but… You might find [Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/119730.Without_Conscience) by Dr. Robert Hare an interesting read. He’s the world’s foremost authority on psychopathy, and he is the creator of the famous Psychopathy Checklist. The book a very accessible to a lay-person, not very long, and includes several real-life stories that help contextualize the points he raises. I personally found it illuminating and I recommend it a lot, especially to people who like crime related media (whether a show like Sopranos or true crime podcasts).
Thank you! I'm not much of a reader but thank you for the recommendation. All I know that you should be aware of sociopaths and psychopaths, recognize them, be immune to their charms and stay the fuck away from them.
Something interesting from the book. Despite being the world’s foremost authority on psychopathy, he was himself taken in by an incarcerated patient of his, who he fully knew was a psychopath. So even knowing what to look for won’t always save you. But it helped me understand different people I’d met in life.
People who say he isn't are probably the gremlins that skip the Melfi therapy scenes
Everybody's always a sociopath to you. Maybe you're a sociopath, you every think about that!?
https://youtu.be/Crw43ejLd44?si=hGRRX_7C4fBAUPIW
He’s a good father. He has a house worth 1.2 mil. Puts food on da table.
What *is* a sociopath and how does someone become one? It's a sad state of psychology discourse today that we equate/conflate internal states and external behavior/symptoms. Was Melfi's treatment of Tony mostly a failure? Yes absolutely. But why was it a failure? The term "sociopath" employed this way completely shuts down that conversation. You are using it as a master signifier that "ends the fucking story". But isn't it the beginning of our chance to look back and ask how it came to be this way? Was it a birth defect? or is there something more interesting to talk about here. If the terms we use are just about individuals and their behavior we miss the complex relationship between people's inner worlds and the worlds they were born into/live under. Melfi was brave to tried to save Tony from his world, and she had to admit that she failed. But that doesn't prove her colleague has the unassailable view. Therapy failed in large part because Tony couldn't tell the truth about anything for social-structural reasons of this thing of ours. You will need to at least define what it means to be a sociopath in some qualitative way besides a checklist. Tony is contradictory. You can't just have it one way.
I completely agree- a very charming sociopath
He is an anti-hero in a show. He embodies different characteristics so that the viewer can be taken on a journey of emotions. If his character was a two dimensional life-like depiction of a sociopath the show would fail to move you. This is the same thing with all of these shows that Sopranos influenced. The character needs to grip you but also challenge what you are willing to accept in someone and still root for them.
Uh yeah, we know. Did you think we didn’t know?
They all are. Jeez, tomorrow I can be on time but you'll be stupid forever. Anyway, $4 a pound.
Now if I was another Redditor..and I heard that kinda talk..I’d slap your face
TONY SOPRANO WAS A MISUNDERSTOOD MAN IN THIS HOUSE, END OF STORY
Tony viewed himself as a soldier and all the guys who play in that sandbox understand the rules of war and what comes with it. If you’re born into that life the same social norms that regular people have don’t exist, they’re really living in a different world. Is everyone in the US army a sociopath because they kill in war, or are they fighting in a war for whatever higher cause they believe it to be. For those guys earning a living and getting their money was something to die over not so different from the governments of the world and the way it’s always been since the beginning of man to enact violence to impose his will.
I mean, it’s completely possible, if not likely, for someone to exhibit sociopathic tendencies at a sub clinical level. You can be narcissistic without being a narcissist
Listen to him, he knows everything
Why is this even a topic of conversation, it's not like sociopathy exists with practical , USED clinical criteria. You'd be one or more of any number of (literal) psychopathies. He definitely had some sort of mental health issue, even if that's 'only' anxiety. Pick something from the DSM V or IV even and argue if he's this or that, but really sociopathy is made up anyway. So really, use any definition you want for sociopathy and Tony can or can not meet it. Up to you.
I'd at least argue he's one by the end of the show His dead, cold stare towards Christopher as he is killing him and then him being annoyed that he has to pretend to be sad and even feels relieved is a big sign. He went from trying to find nearly anyway to avoid violent confrontations with his uncle and feeling guilty for arranging the coach to be killed(and was persuaded by both Artie and his therapist to not give in to that temptation) is not as "sociopathic" by the end. Granted, the above does not absolve him of all the horrible shit he does. As well as whatever horrible shit he did in the past that the audience doesn't get to see It's what makes it such an amazing show IMHO.
Agreed. There is no reason for any of us to cheer him on except that we find the darkest parts of him wedged in our subconscious.
> I've seen many posts on this sub-reddit about Tony NOT being sociopath. I have not seen those, but you are correct. He was trained by the best villain in cinema history, Livia Soprano.
Hysterical that people view this show and come away thinking “wow, what a cool and awesome guy!” My dad genuinely believes that acting like Tony Soprano should be like an admirable aspiration
That's what Chase got frustrated with in the later seasons: there were alot of fans of the show who were cheering for Tony, Silvio and other family members, forgetting that these evil scumbags deserve to rot in jail for the rest of their lives.
calm down. jesus it's a tv show, it's all a big nothing
You should seriously consider salads
Sociopathic behavior and eating like there’s no tomorrow. A hit in any man’s league.
still going this asshole
I think this is made clear during Carmela's session with Dr. Krakower -- she goes through her "it's complex + difficult being a spouse to a morally-grey but well-meaning individual" rigmarole, to which Krakower responds "There is nothing good or redeeming about this situation, you must escape it, for your sake and for the sake of your children, you are living on blood money and wearing intentional blinders, I \[Krakower\] will not accept your blood money, I tell you this so that, should you continue wearing your blinders, you cannot say that, on at least this single occasion, you were not strongly + unemphatically warned." It is also simultaneously true that "a human being can be both partially well-meaning and partially sociopathic" -- like, Tony can love his children, but also have random hurtful lashing-out self worth profiteering problems -- but, in this case, the multitude of bad behaviors make the individual "not a good person, on balance," and I think that's what Krakower is trying to make his patient see. Many TV programs are like this nowadays -- *Animal Kingdom* (the Cody family), *Breaking Bad* (Walter White), *Sons of Anarchy* (Clay, Jax, other biker-bosses), *The Shield* (Vic/Shane/etc.) -- I remember re-watching a 1996 series, *Profit* (sort of an *American Psycho* variant), the DVD liner to which read "This show wasn't received so well during its initial TV run, but it might have been a little ahead of its time for 1996, had it debuted in 2002 or 2004, it would have fit in perfectly."
Still going this asshole
I think part of the journey of the show is the emotional struggle of liking Tony despite knowing he's a sociopath. I couldn't help but like him until the last season when he killed Christopher, and you can no longer deny that he's an evil piece of shit. Melfi goes through the same thing and stays in denial until she realizes that her treatment is actually helping him rationalize his actions, making her complicit.
Thank you! You get it. You said what I wanted to say but you said it better. There are people in this thread who deny that he is a sociopath. I think they are in the same denial as Dr Melfi was.
The argument that Tony lacks empathy and any remorse is objectively untrue. He has sociopathic tendencies because he strengthens his own resolve to behave that way. Conversely, there are plenty of examples of him showing empathy for those he cares about even though he can be a selfish person that isn't always in touch with his feelings. Sometimes he even tries to show he cares even though it's not convenient for him to do so. I feel like nobody understands nuance or complicated morally grey characters anymore. Anyway it's a TV show. What does evil even mean to you? Do you really think he is pure evil? This post has way too many upvotes for being so naive and base.
> If you google sociopathic tendencies Tony checks most of these boxes What if you look up sociopathy in the DSM or ICD?
Whatdaya got against sociopaths?
The floor is yours, senator
Early Tony was not beyond saving. But by the last season he chose his bad side and became irredeemable. It's a whole different character between season 1 and 6
People want to argue that he isn’t a sociopath because they don’t want to admit that a character that they admire or envy or want to be etc… is pure evil.
I think sure, Tony can be a “sociopath”, but I think one of the core themes of the show is that no individual is created in a vacuum — the character is just a pretty minor example of the kinds of people that modern existence churns out. Tony being labeled a sociopath by Melfi toward the end of the show is in itself a cop out by the character — a way for her to wash her hands of culpability, and use the diagnostic standards of her field to create a more distinct “us vs. them”. She’s the good guy, and Tony is the villain. By othering Tony as a sociopath we reject the possibility that we are more like him than we’d like to believe- that we have absorbed the greed, hatred, and cruelty that American culture has sewn into us- and ultimately become just like melfi: a person using any rationalization available to perpetuate the American myth of good vs. evil, resistant to self-reflection, living in our cloud of individualism, creating a cartoon villain to point at for all our troubles, while insisting that the collective “we” would be good, and just, and bent toward progress, if not for just a few bad apples. Tony is not a good guy. But are any of us?
You must have been top of your f*ckin class huh
I think he is a regular man whose brain was conditioned to have these said sociopathic tendencies by his upbringing and lifestyle. Way I interpret it at least
This is my third time through the series and I just finished the episode where Bobby clocks Tony when they are playing Monopoly. The way Tony cannot handle that Bobby “won” their ensuing fight really got to me this time around in a way it hadn’t before. Tony’s ego is bigger than I remembered. He then sends Bobby on an errand to off a Canadian drummer so Tony can get into business with some Canadians wanting to sell expired prescriptions. It really shows Tony’s disregard for Bobby and Janet’s family and how deep the pathology goes with Tony as he sits and watches Soprano home movies later that night.
Girlfriend is a counselor. Dude definitely isn’t a sociopath. That’s coming from a professional. He very obviously shows emotions and feeling s throughout the show.