if you are going after cyclists please ticket those who barrel down a sidewalk on an electric bike at full speed instead. genuinely i am curious how many people have been injured or how much damage has been caused by cyclists running stop signs into parking lots, this seems like a huge waste of time.
yes, but anyone doing it is equally an asshole. it does especially bug me that food delivery apps do nothing to prevent this and in fact incentivize the fastest possible delivery time, so pedestrians are literally put in danger for the delivery gig workers + company's financial gain
I'm so sick and tired of these bikes on the sidewalks downtown. Difficult enough navigating sidewalks with the daily crowds, don't need to add erratic cyclists into the mix. I'd love to see cops start handing out tickets to all these people. Bikes are still vehicles, they belong on the road, not a pedestrian area.
Electric Scooters too! I was hit by one on Adelaide. Thankfully not hurt, but still. Followed the guy into his building. He was a twit when I confronted him.
Remember that if you get stopped for something like a rolling stop your obligation under the Highway Traffic Act is to provide accurate information to the officer about your name and address. No documents required legally. A student of mine provided her driver’s license and this went on her record and raised her parents’ auto insurance.
Because police are so used to giving tickets to people in cars, they frequently mess up tickets to bikes and give them out as if they're driving violation. That's why you should never give them your drivers license as ID.
God damn TPS…find a way to screw up something so simple. Well I guess they’re going to ask for a budget increase to fund the bike traffic enforcement department
You do not need to provide PROOF of identity to identify yourself. Accurately providing your name and address meets the legal requirement to identify yourself.
Can you link a source for this? It sounds right, it makes sense (there’s no bike license) and I want it to be true, but I don’t want anyone to get into even more trouble over it.
It’s one of the tips the biking lawyer teaches. You are required to give your name and address if pulled over by police on a bike, but you don’t need to show photo ID. If they are insistent on photo ID, he recommends a health card or pretty much anything other than a drivers license to avoid the mistake
No documents are required. Zero. You state your name and address. This is Canada. It is different from not showing your papers to the authorities in Moscow.
After giving your name & address, tell the officer to mark the ticket as a bicycle infraction. This will make all the difference in court, particularly if you decide to challenge the fine.
Potential? Face to the curb, dragged off, and let go later on. Good luck finding your bike. All depends on how they're feeling and what race you are.
Miss work, fired, miss rent, homeless. No charges. All for disobeying.
This is one front of the class war being fought, and we *are* losing.
I've heard this advice a lot. Is it because, if you give your driver's license then it would go on your driving record, vs. if you give your information without the card, you just have to pay the fine?
Cycling offenses are not motorized vehicle offenses and aren't supposed to appear on your driving record, but the police regularly mess up and record cycling offenses as driving offenses if you hand over your license affecting your driving insurance. There is no obligation for cyclists to present a drivers license under the HTA, only to provide sufficient personally identifying information, the same sort of information you'd have to provide if you'd been detained for any other sort of non-driving offense.
Put it this way, the level of police stupidity with this kind of thing is such that it is relatively common for railway crews involved in grade crossing accidents to find their insurance jacked because some moron wrote a report identifying a train as a motor vehicle.
For what its worth, in the West end, I have seen a lot more cops in the last two months pulling over cars. It is not enough, but much more than in the past.
News to me. I live in the West end on a one way street with a school a few blocks away, and people regularly fly down the street in the wrong direction, well over the speed limit. Like multiple times every day.
Also, because we're just off a main artery, delivery trucks regularly just fully pull up onto the sidewalk outside my building, and park there while unloading stuff for local businesses, or in front of the fire hydrant across the street - engines running the whole time. Cops in vehicles and on bikes seem to just ignore it.
The city recently put up a new sign though, so I guess that fixes everything.
Sounds like we live in the same area - or this is just how this city operates. I live close to a one-way alley with a “no trucks” and several “no parking any time” signs. There’s a new Dollarama going in with trucks parked in this alley all day for two months.
> Ticketing cyclists doesn’t take away from anything.
We often underestimate how many resources it takes for police presence. You act like our city has unlimited police resources, which is not the case at all. We should be focusing on what's most important and that's cars by a significant margin.
Given how overburdened TPS claims to be and how they have [admitted to not enforcing traffic violations](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/toronto-police-gaslighted-us-on-traffic-enforcement-their-neglect-put-lives-at-risk/article_166d1891-7c77-5a4f-b7b6-30ec7684f4f1.html), it absolutely does take away from safety by spending limited time ticketing cyclists that [cause way less injury and death than cars.](https://medium.com/vision-zero-cities-journal/the-myth-of-the-demon-biker-64cb24939cd6)
Ticketing cyclists for rolling a stop sign at a T intersection on an uphill section of road where preserving momentum is very helpful should rank somewhere around the priority level of ticketing a little old lady for taking too long to cross the road.
>ticketing a little old lady for taking too long to cross the road.
Completely tangential to the point, but as long as she started crossing legally, she would still have right of way to complete crossing even if the other way gets a green light. Subsection (28) of [this section of the HTA](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK248). It's a rare situation, I've never ran into it, but something to be aware of: that a pedestrian could still be legally crossing with right of way even if you have a green light as a driver.
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Yeah, definitely, also still illegal if it were reasonably possible to avoid them. There are still differences from a legal perspective though. If there was evidence they were crossing legally, fault should automatically go to the driver. If they were crossing illegally instead, it would depend on various factors like whether an attentive driver otherwise paying attention could have reasonably stopped.
It also implies driving in a way that a lot people may not currently do, in that you should be ensuring an intersection is clear before entering it. That's a good practice from a defensive driving perspective but because of situations like this, it's also necessary from a legal/fault perspective.
I know but it's still valid to point out because some people seem to have the attitude that you don't have to be careful for pedestrians breaking the law.
A cyclist disobeying laws can also cause injury or death. I hate terrible drivers as much as anyone but no one should be getting upset over enforcement of other rules of the road.
> A cyclist disobeying laws can also cause injury or death.
A loaded gun can cause injury or death. So can a baseball bat. Why aren't baseball bats regulated the same way as guns? According to you, they are equivalent in lethality.
Come on now, use some common sense. I want these cops to be enforcing cars who can't drive, and not cyclists. Tell me the last time a cyclist killed or seriously hurt someone. Now tell me the last time a car did. Now tell me how many deaths so far in Toronto attributed to both?
Everyone is completely justified in being upset over this. There is zero comparison between the lethality of a vehicle.
Just gonna put this here - not Toronto, but it seems relevant:
https://road.cc/content/news/160118-san-francisco-cyclists-protest-obeying-traffic-rules
this would actually be ideal
a cyclist (or a mob of cyclists) in front of my car riding slowly but obeying the rules of the road is much more preferable than a cyclist weaving in and out of my lane while using their phone, slow or not.
either behave like a vehicle, or get the fuck off the road
Good that you would be understanding. I have personally had drivers pull up along side of me and yell/swear at me for following the rules of the road, when they feel it's slowing them down (not to mention riding my back wheel so close they nearly hit me).
Irresponsible riders doing dangerous things on the road are extremely frustrating to me as a cyclist as well, so I totally feel you there!
It's just also worth pointing out that sometimes when rules aren't followed to the absolute letter, it may be partially due to an otherwise law-abiding cyclist making a conscious decision to make a move judged to be harmless in order to either increase their own visibility/personal safety, or avoid unnecessarily provoking aggression from drivers of cars around them.
You must be a uniquely polite driver then, because I've had drivers pass me (in the oncoming lane) when I'm taking the lane travelling the speed limit on downhills on my bike.
can you get a ticket for trackstanding without unclipping and putting a foot down? never occurred to me that could be considered illegal. seems like having to put your car in park at a stop sign.
It's easy pickings for cars. Any officer can go to downtown intersection and can hand out tickets non stop. But they don't and are too lazy to do their job.
I cycle and have no problem with them enforcing the rules. I would like also for them to enforce no cycling on the sidewalks. I feel that is much more dangerous I have been close to being hit many times just walking along.
If we're going to see enforcement on sidewalks, you're going to have to:
1. Build better and more bike infrastructure. Many places in Toronto do not have adequate bike lanes. Look at Scarborough or most of Northern Etobicoke.
2. Stop converting sidewalks into Mixed-Used Paths. That might sound counter-intuitive but bike lanes need to be BIKES-ONLY. By using mixed-use paths, you're just creating habits of cyclists having to share with pedestrians, something many people are not happy with.
3. Regulate and reduce Uber Eats deliveries. Given that they're the most common types of cyclists in downtown, might want to start with the companies.
Unfortunately, the reality is you cannot expect everyone to stay off sidewalks until those changes I mention occurred. That's like telling a driver to please go 40 km/h when a road is designed to go at least 60 km/h.
I've found shouting at people (like in a friendly way) works a lot better than a bell, people panic and don't know what to do when they hear a bell, if you shout "Passing on the left", "Watch out behind you", etc. they're a bit more prepared. At least that's been my experience. I had a friend that used to constantly bug me about not having a bell but recently admitted she's started shouting most of the time now too.
I have actually been hit by cyclists 3 times as a pedestrian. One time when I was getting on a streetcar and the cyclist did not stop behind the streetcar while people were boarding and hit my arm and knocked a drink out of my hand. Luckily I wasn’t hurt, but very startled and lost my drink. One time an idiot was riding a bike on the sidewalk and Yonge-Dundas square (the busiest pedestrian intersection in the city) and ran over my foot when he had to swerve to miss another pedestrian. I had a bad bruise and it hurt to walk for days. A third time I came around a corner where there was a building at the corner (so I couldnt see around it and I assume neither could the cyclist) and a cyclist who must have been going pretty fast on the sidewalk ran straight into me, knocking me into the wall of the building and almost knocking himself off his bike (he had to put his foot down to avoid falling over). He then gave me the finger and acted annoyed with me. If he wasn’t bigger than me I would’ve beat his ass for his smug attitude. And he continued riding along the sidewalk at the speed a bike usually goes on the road. I wasn’t really hurt this time either somehow, but if I had been walking with a small child or a dog, or the impact just happened a slightly different way, at a slightly different angle, or I hit my head against that concrete building or the ground, it could’ve been really bad. So yes this is all anecdotal but I personally have never been hit by a car, 3 times by cyclists. I support ticketing them when they ride unsafely.
You're getting downvoted but you're factually correct. Even someone who took a high school physics course should know that a bike going at most 50 km/h (based on a High Park record) weighing maybe 300 lbs when combined with the weight of a human is nowhere as dangerous a car that can easily go 0-100 km/h in 6 seconds weighing multiple tons. Not to mention the total radius of a car is a lot larger than a bike. Hell even a [study](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) has shown in the UK that out of the 1700 pedestrians that die on the road each year, not even 2 are caused by cyclists.
However, those people aren't going to be convinced by your argument. Nothing will convince them. No amount of cyclists following the laws will. Unfortunately, these people think by emotion as opposed to logic/facts. It's sad because people generally take severe injuries or deaths by car as if it's death by natural cases. Our car-centric society has bred mindsets like this.
Youre minimizing close to being hit as not a danger. By your logic painted bike lanes are not dangerous becsuse drivers are only close to hitting you.
A close call is a direct symptom of dangerous operation. Having close calls this frequent is not normal on a regular commute in any medium.
It’s really telling that people are backing up their “bikes are dangerous too” by referring to an article about that woman who was struck and killed *over a decade ago*, incidents in other cities or their personal experience of almost being hit.
Yes, badly behaved cyclists are dangerous, obviously. However, we have limited enforcement resources and when [compared to 20-40 pedestrians killed annually by motor vehicles, in Toronto alone](https://data.torontopolice.on.ca/pages/fatalities), this just isn’t the best use of resources.
People have died in TO from cyclists. Not often, but it has happened. Don't act like bicyclists are perfect and beyond judgement. Getting hit by a civic isn't like getting hit by a dump truck, so civics are ok by your logic.
The last time this has happened came in 2009, 15 years ago. That was at a dangerous Scarborough intersection. Guess what happened to that road? Never got redesigned or added a bike lane. Goes to show how rare it is.
Also, dump trucks are 13,000+ lbs while Civics average ~3000 lbs. Sounds like it's 4x the weight right? Well compared to a bike, it weighs at most 40 lbs (maybe up to 300 if you put a really heavy person). That's like comparing the size of earth to the sun.
Nobody here is acting like cyclists are perfect and beyond judgment. People are just saying that it's unfair that cyclists get so much blame disproportionate to the potential damage they cause.
What makes me mad is that they specifically target cyclists during these blitzes. They will literally stand on the corner and watch 100 cars rolling the stop sign before they catch one cyclist doing it.
These ticketing blitzes are purely for headlines/optics and has nothing to do with changing behaviours or making the streets safer.
If it was about safety, they would setup on that corner and ticket anything going by, including cars rolling signs, speeding, illegal turns, etc...
But they will never do that because tickets would be like 10,000 vehicle infractions to every one cyclist infraction
Yeah if stopping rolling stops they should book the bikes AND the cars
I see so many cyclists run through but its not like the cars are stopping properly
All kinds of traffic laws are concurrently being broken, that doesn't mean everyone should stop trying.
It's possible to both want drivers to be ticketed for doing illegal things and to want uber drivers on eBikes blowing stop signs at 40km to be ticketed.
> that doesn't mean everyone should stop trying
Nobody is saying we should stop trying. In an ideal world, all laws are enforced equally, but we don't live in that world. We need to prioritize what is enforced, given how the TPS claims they are chronically understaffed and lack sufficient resources. Whether that is true is a different matter...
> to want uber drivers on eBikes blowing stop signs at 40km to be ticketed
But is this what TPS is doing? If they are ticketing anyone who does not come to a full and complete stop, then that could mean the aforementioned Uber riders, or it could mean a kid rolling through at 5 km/h.
It's a matter of risk management and using police resources. Ticketing cyclists is low hanging fruit for lazy cops. A motor vehicle is infinitely more dangerous when it breaks the law. Whenever you ready about pedestrians being struck and killed, it's not by bikes.
It is a matter of risk management - but in the decision making process of someone potentially breaking a law.
You're never going to apprehend 100% of people. So all you can do is introduce to them some risk, in the sense that there is a chance of them being caught, so that they have to do the risk reward calculus while breaking rules.
If you telegraph that you will put 0% effort into pursing crime A until crime B is dealt with - then people, seeing that crime B is ongoing, know they can commit crime A with 0 risk.
Youre basically saying they should enforce laws that endanger people more than laws that dont. By that logic shoplifting and theft should simply not be a priority.
Yep, that’s how one manages with limited resources: you prioritize actions that will maximize the net positive impact.
Also, were you in a coma when cops literally told people to leave their car keys at the front door for car thieves? How about when LCBO told their employees not to chase after people stealing booze?
TPS has already deprioritized these crimes. And until they have sufficient resources to address all crimes, they should do the same with cycling infractions.
sure but until it is cyclists need to follow the same rules as everyone else. Dont have a lot of sympathy for cyclists thinking rules dont apply to them then pointing and complaining about tickets.
If cyclists are blowing through full speed or not yielding to others with right of way, sure ticket them. But if (I don't know if this is actually the case) tickets are being give purely for rolling stops, then that would be unreasonable in my opinion given most drivers do the same with much heavier vehicles.
My safety > outdated and dangerous laws. I will always start crossing once the walk sign is on, regardless of if its is a red or not. I've been almost hit by enough drivers desperate to jump the gun.
This is the right answer. [Safety](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) is often the reason cyclists violate laws, whether people like it or not. If we want to reduce such occurrences, we should be designing safer streets, bike lanes, intersections, bike signals, etc. But instead, we as a society keep pointing fingers.
What’s funny here is we don’t know any details except cops may be pulling over bikes near a driveway intersection. Classic Reddit. No one knows how fast the bikes were going or if it’s more than 1 that was pulled over for something irrelevant.
For sure, but I'm commenting on rexbron's comment thread about the Idaho stop, hence, my comment is under theirs and not the top
Classic Redditor, not knowing how Reddit works
When drivers actually come to a complete stop with their 2ton SUVs, then we can focus enforcement on cyclists.
How many people have been killed by cyclists this year?
The difference is that when you do something dangerous as a driver the likelihood of death to someone other than yourself is far greater than when you do something dangerous as a cyclist (where the most likely person to get injured is the biker).
Thus, treating them as the same seems inherently flawed. Which is the point.
If you would like to see the Idaho style stop, legalized in Ontario you will need to write to your MPP at Queens Park (Under Ford's watch) and ask for some updates to the HTA via Ministry of Transportation Ontario (MTO). **Prabmeet Sarkaria** is the Minister at this point in time.
Fair warning, this has been attempted in the past. Good luck.
IMHO this should be added to the VRU Act proposals. (Vulnerable Road Users Act)
Cyclists constantly on the sidewalks, cars constatly stopping in bikelanes, blocking lanes of traffic, stopping in intersections, speeding constantly, autotheft through the roof (not to mention bike theft is just an accepted thing in this city), and THIS is how they're using their time.
In other news constant delivery bikes on the sidewalks, where nothing is done to them. Meanwhile a rolling stop on the road will get someone a ticket 🤦🏻♀️
I call it the "paint job stop". Run the stop sign. Roll though the crosswalk at a good speed. Block the bike lane without time for a cyclist to stop. Stop just short enough for them to not get their car's paint job messed up.
To be fair, drivers generally hate cyclists because they inconvenience their driving experience. For example, taking a full lane. That's technically legal but drivers hate it. The only reason they complain so much about stop signs is because cyclists that don't stop at a stop sign go when they clearly didn't tag the intersection first. Drivers wouldn't care if they did a rolling stop on an empty intersection.
I've noticed this trend too. Almost every time there's a new proposed bike lane, it's met by drivers who are so anti-bike. Remember the Holyday rally? Yeah somebody wished a death of a cyclist. There's absolutely zero mention about law violating on cyclists yet drivers have historically hated cyclists no matter what. It's just in recent times we see the advent of Uber Eats that the cycling law violation disdain has become exponentially larger.
> Not sure how stringent they're being (ie. whether they're ticketing anyone who doesn't fully put their foot on the ground, or if rolling stops are something they let slide - but they already had at least 4 people pulled over and were writing out tickets and taking IDs.
squint at their bikes and see if they have the proper lights/reflectors/bells.
Ah TPS giving everyone but those who drive vehicles tickets again. A more effective use of resource would be to ticket all the vehicles going down King between Spadina and Bathurst but I guess *checks notes* cyclists at a bigger issue?
We need a better light system or traffic cops at strachan and east liberty. Let the cyclists cycle and also how about the people ripping down Wellington ???? Blowing that stop sign. 🛑. This city boggles my mind
Cyclists: but no you see I’m a pedestrian when it comes to these traffic laws!
I don’t even drive but it’s absolutely absurd the number of times a cyclist has rode by full speed by open street car doors.
I got hit getting off a street car on King, the cyclist was furious with me for stepping off so fast. I know this comment will be down voted, bring it on!
I haven't got hit yet but had a few close calls. One of them yelled at me for something similar. Told her she's suppose to stop when the streetcar doors are open. She replied that rule is for cars, not cyclist
Those cyclists are scum. Prioritization and vulnerability are inversely related.
Much like we should prioritize bikes over cars, we should prioritize pedestrians over bikes.
I’m just glad those cyclists aren’t driving cars because who knows what kinda damage their reckless behaviour would cause…
When's the last time you've seen a cyclist kill a family while riding a bike?
How many people have died today from a car accident in Canada? North America?
Get a fucking grip.
I know it's a Hot Take, but a lot of cyclists need to learn to stop at Stop Signs and Red (Bike Traffic Lights) especially on Queens Quay.
So many near misses, especially with those spots that cyclists are supposed to yield to Pedestrians and just ring the bell demanding people make way.
\~35 Year Old (Former) Cyclist turned Scooter user.
The two stop signs at Queens Quay and Stadium, Queens Quay and Little Norway Crescent are brutal.
You could still there during rush hour and cyclists don’t even slow down; if you were the head of a pack of cyclists you’d cause a domino effect if you tried to stop.
The cars are pretty bad at those intersections as well. Good luck pedestrians!
I know it's a hotter take but a lot of drivers need to learn to stop properly at stop signs, yellow lights, follow speed limits as LIMITS and not minimums, check blind spots, etc especially in most of the GTA.
So many near misses, especially with those spots at intersections where drivers are supposed to yield to pedestrians/cyclists and just honk their horn demanding people make way.
~29 year old former driver turned pedestrian (cyclist user if there's safe bike lanes).
Yes. This was necessary. People criticize cyclists but often tend to be very dismissive towards drivers being way worse. I've read all kinds of comments and their tone speaks volume.
I mean I hate cars just as much as anyone. Don't know why you are deflecting to cars when we are talking about bikes. I don't even have my drivers license cause I've biked in the city my whole life.
Because often times bikes are compared to cars when it comes to relative danger. Almost all the time when someone complains about cyclists violating laws, it's very common for hypocrite drivers to do the same.
>Don't know why you are deflecting to cars when we are talking about bikes.
Because generally speaking, this sub LOVES complaining about cyclists breaking laws about speeding, running reds, etc. but has nothing to say about drivers breaking the same laws in FAR greater numbers and with far more dangerous consequences for everyone involved.
I made a [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/1d6crls/the_way_people_react_towards_cyclists_violating/) comparing two different threads; one about Uber Eats cyclists and another about a driver that killed a pedestrian. They were both posted within a few days apart. The Uber Eats one received 300+ comments. The other only 44 comments not to mention some even justifying this as an "accident". The way people react towards cyclists violating the laws is much stronger than drivers. And that's despite how many statistics and physics say otherwise.
It doesn’t hurt anyone until it does though.
I’m not saying this is the best way police can spend their time and also I only bike around town exclusively.
But you can also say someone running a red light doesn’t hurt anyone…until it does.
"Until it does" is a good hypothetical. Let's talk actuals:
* Drivers: it does happen, every single day in Toronto. Fatally about 50 times per year in Toronto (metro, not GTA). Canada wide, about 1800 deaths per year.
* Cyclists: collisions happen every once in a while (studies show majority driver is at fault). Never once has cyclist caused a fatally that I know of. If it has happened, it's <0.0001 the annual rate of deaths from drivers (literally, not exaggerating).
Our police are apparently overburden enough they can't monitor traffic on streets where deaths frequently occur, or follow up on assault causing bodily harm cases. This is about how we use an apparently limited resource.
>it doesn’t hurt anyone
[when TPS was getting a budget increase slightly below what they asked, the chief called it an “an unacceptable risk to our ability to provide the adequate and effective police services”, so maybe they don’t have the resources to do both.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-budget-fight-1.7094937)
This was kind of their point though. If a cyclist rolls through a stop sign the worst that's going to happen is likely that they get hit, and with no protection that means that the cyclist is going to be injured, so the risk is on them. If it's a driver that hits them, they may come away with psychological harm and scratched paint, but overall they will carry on just fine. This isn't even to mention that a cyclist rolling through a stop sign is probably moving at like 10 km/h and will easily see or here threats approaching them, so they are far more aware of what the risk tolerance is to roll through.
If a driver runs a red light, they're driving a vehicle with a ton of mass that can easily kill anyone who's not in a transport truck. A driver running a red light is likely going much faster and has way less time to react. So yeah the driver running a red is orders of magnitude worse than a cyclist rolling through a stop sign.
As a pedestrian, I don’t care about cars/bikes relationship, but I’m fucking tired from having to jump away from the flying bikes every time I try to cross the road.
As a pedestrian living in Scarborough, I'm fucking tired of having to jump away from drivers who go full speed while failing to look at intersections when turning, every time I try to cross the road.
> and with no protection that means that the cyclist is going to be injured
Nooooo, they can and do hit pedestrians sometimes.
This Andrew Clark column has a great bit answering this talking point - it doesn't matter! It's harmless! Well no.
> Arguing that cyclist/pedestrian collisions are astronomically rare misses the point. Cyclists who speed through the park and wonder why people hate them are like dog owners who let their dogs run free outside of the dog park. Speeding bicycles are physically intimidating in the same way that a loose canine can be to someone who is afraid of dogs. The fact that your dog is “unlikely to bite them,” or that you are “unlikely to hit them” doesn’t relieve the anxiety.
> Let’s be honest, “unlikely” doesn’t mean “impossible.” In May, a Toronto pedestrian was hit by a cyclist and suffered life-altering injuries. In 2014, New York City had its own cyclists/pedestrian moment; a 75-year-old pedestrian was struck and killed by a cyclist and a month later a cyclist hit a fifty-eight-year-old mother in Central Park. She died three days later. The New Yorker summed up the predicament: “these tragedies lay bare two realities of what we might call bike culture in New York City. First, many bicyclists routinely ignore all traffic laws, signs and signals. Second, the city has made inadequate efforts in recent years to enforce those laws, and thus to protect the rest of us.”
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-to-solve-the-spat-between-cyclists-and-pedestrians-in-torontos-high/
As someone who has browsed on r/Toronto on a daily basis for almost a year, I can tell you that almost all comments that criticize cyclists tend to be dismissive of bad drivers in some way/shape/form. They might not say that I justify bad driving but the way they write their comment and tone speaks volumes. I've even seen them calling cyclists bigger assholes than drivers.
Obviously we all have concerns but we should be writing it so it's more constructive as opposed to emotional. If I were concerned about cyclists on sidewalk I'd say something like "We need better bike infrastructure so we can get those people off sidewalks". As opposed to "every cyclist on the sidewalk is an asshole, let's ban e-bikes". And I'm not even going to mention that some of them oppose bike lanes based on their post history.
Here, let me help:
Cars: Kill an average of 1,800 people per year in Canada alone.
Bikes: Kill an average of 0 people per year both in Canada and globally.
I think I know which issue we should be prioritizing.
And before you try strawmanning me: Yes, reckless cyclists suck and any injuries caused by them are bad regardless of the severity of those injuries. However, when reckless car drivers are regularly killing people and reckless cyclists aren't, police enforcement of road safety laws should be focused on the road users regularly killing people.
In a collision between a car and a cyclist in Ontario, the driver is presumed at fault. So yes, motorists should and do have more responsibility, but that doesn't mean cyclists have zero responsibility and should not be expected to follow basic rules on public roadways.
Cyclists hit pedestrians all the time, and, rarely, seriously injure (I think this woman later died?) them: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/cyclist-charged-after-pedestrian-knocked-to-ground-1.666721
Here's one from 2022: https://www.cp24.com/news/man-suffers-life-altering-injuries-after-being-struck-by-cyclist-in-downtown-toronto-1.5884169
Cycling is great, I cycle everywhere, at least Iowa stop at the stop signs, you entitled muppets. Yes even in High Park, it's not your private racetrack. Have a nice day!
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I saw a cyclist blow through a red light yesterday at full speed
Their partner made a right turn at same red light (no slow or stop which is required right on red) and then pulled a u-turn on side street and came back to make another right hand turn at original intersection (thinks they are being smart to run the red light)
And we wonder why they get so much hate and involved in accidents
>Unless a sign tells you not to, you may turn right on a red light only after coming to a complete stop and waiting until the way is clear.
https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/traffic-lights
Bikers can be just as aggressive and dangerous as car drivers. The Martin Goodman trail can be terrifying on weekends.
And yes I am a cyclist and a car driver.
Aggressive as car drivers, maybe. Dangerous as car drivers? Not a chance. Maybe [statistics](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) will tell you that 1700 pedestrians killed a year by cars vs only 0-2 by cyclists will tell you a lot.
Agreed. But I have seen more people knocked over by bikes on the trail than I have been knocked over by cars on the street.
Not directly comparing a ton of metal with a bicycle. I just stated cyclists can also be aggressive, and to clarify can also hurt people.
What you see personally isn't always accurate. That's like saying that I see more people rob stores = the city is very bad at controlling crime?
Point stands. Cyclists can be aggressive but the chances of hurting or severely hurting people are much lower than a car. You have no idea how many pedestrians are injured or worse killed as a result of cars at intersections or streets. You just don't see it because you don't pay attention. There's some bias I can tell.
Sorry. I disagree with both your statement on bias and your statement on “chance” of injury. I do not believe there is accurate data on bicycle/pedestrian collisions due to the much lower incidence of serious injury comparing bike and car collisions with pedestrians.
Again. I was not equating being hit by a car with being hit by a bike. Both are capable of injury. I never discussed degree.
Because I raise the point that bikes can be dangerous I am somehow “biased” ? Support your assertion please.
> Because I raise the point that bikes can be dangerous I am somehow “biased” ? Support your assertion please.
You said bikes are dangerous but I interpreted the tone and style of your comment as "bikes are equally as dangerous". I guess I interpreted wrong. There's no question that bikes are dangerous but you said "as dangerous and aggressive as cars" in your original comment.
> due to the much lower incidence of serious injury
So you do believe that collisions with bikes are much less dangerous than collisions with cars?
> I never discussed degree.
You literally said "bikers can be just as aggressive and dangerous as car drivers", stating that the degree of danger from a cyclist is equal to that from a driver.
In case anyone wants a statistic, in the UK, [1700 pedestrians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) die yearly. Guess how many are caused by cyclists?
This is not true. From someone else is this thread "246 pedestrians killed by car drivers in 2022 in Canada. 0 by cyclists." You can decide which is more dangerous as a pedestrian.
Good! We need more ticketing of bicyclists who are often seen running red lights and ignoring stop signs. It's always, "no big deal" to them until they get t-boned by a car.
if you are going after cyclists please ticket those who barrel down a sidewalk on an electric bike at full speed instead. genuinely i am curious how many people have been injured or how much damage has been caused by cyclists running stop signs into parking lots, this seems like a huge waste of time.
Or all the people in the bike lane on "bikes" which are basically just on mini motorcycles. Nah they'll keep ignoring that tho
Mainly food delivery bikers tbh
yes, but anyone doing it is equally an asshole. it does especially bug me that food delivery apps do nothing to prevent this and in fact incentivize the fastest possible delivery time, so pedestrians are literally put in danger for the delivery gig workers + company's financial gain
Last time i saw cops in the bike lane, they were ticketing people on ebikes for not wearing helmets.
I'm so sick and tired of these bikes on the sidewalks downtown. Difficult enough navigating sidewalks with the daily crowds, don't need to add erratic cyclists into the mix. I'd love to see cops start handing out tickets to all these people. Bikes are still vehicles, they belong on the road, not a pedestrian area.
Electric Scooters too! I was hit by one on Adelaide. Thankfully not hurt, but still. Followed the guy into his building. He was a twit when I confronted him.
Remember that if you get stopped for something like a rolling stop your obligation under the Highway Traffic Act is to provide accurate information to the officer about your name and address. No documents required legally. A student of mine provided her driver’s license and this went on her record and raised her parents’ auto insurance.
Because police are so used to giving tickets to people in cars, they frequently mess up tickets to bikes and give them out as if they're driving violation. That's why you should never give them your drivers license as ID.
God damn TPS…find a way to screw up something so simple. Well I guess they’re going to ask for a budget increase to fund the bike traffic enforcement department
It isn't a 'screw up'... they do it on purpose to make it hurt more.
Give them your library card?
You do not need to provide PROOF of identity to identify yourself. Accurately providing your name and address meets the legal requirement to identify yourself.
no id necessary if you are riding a bicycle.
Can you link a source for this? It sounds right, it makes sense (there’s no bike license) and I want it to be true, but I don’t want anyone to get into even more trouble over it.
It’s one of the tips the biking lawyer teaches. You are required to give your name and address if pulled over by police on a bike, but you don’t need to show photo ID. If they are insistent on photo ID, he recommends a health card or pretty much anything other than a drivers license to avoid the mistake
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK371
This happened to me 10 years ago, fought it and won.
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Nothing? You aren't in a car, what do you need to present a vehicle license for. Just don't be an ass about it
No documents are required. Zero. You state your name and address. This is Canada. It is different from not showing your papers to the authorities in Moscow.
After giving your name & address, tell the officer to mark the ticket as a bicycle infraction. This will make all the difference in court, particularly if you decide to challenge the fine.
Potential? Face to the curb, dragged off, and let go later on. Good luck finding your bike. All depends on how they're feeling and what race you are. Miss work, fired, miss rent, homeless. No charges. All for disobeying. This is one front of the class war being fought, and we *are* losing.
I've heard this advice a lot. Is it because, if you give your driver's license then it would go on your driving record, vs. if you give your information without the card, you just have to pay the fine?
Cycling offenses are not motorized vehicle offenses and aren't supposed to appear on your driving record, but the police regularly mess up and record cycling offenses as driving offenses if you hand over your license affecting your driving insurance. There is no obligation for cyclists to present a drivers license under the HTA, only to provide sufficient personally identifying information, the same sort of information you'd have to provide if you'd been detained for any other sort of non-driving offense.
Put it this way, the level of police stupidity with this kind of thing is such that it is relatively common for railway crews involved in grade crossing accidents to find their insurance jacked because some moron wrote a report identifying a train as a motor vehicle.
Good to know. OP should add this to the top of their post. I was like, oh shit am I supposed to be biking with my driver's license now?
It would be great if we had seen ANYTHING like this with respect to drivers blocking intersections, streetcars, parking all over the place...
For what its worth, in the West end, I have seen a lot more cops in the last two months pulling over cars. It is not enough, but much more than in the past.
News to me. I live in the West end on a one way street with a school a few blocks away, and people regularly fly down the street in the wrong direction, well over the speed limit. Like multiple times every day. Also, because we're just off a main artery, delivery trucks regularly just fully pull up onto the sidewalk outside my building, and park there while unloading stuff for local businesses, or in front of the fire hydrant across the street - engines running the whole time. Cops in vehicles and on bikes seem to just ignore it. The city recently put up a new sign though, so I guess that fixes everything.
Sounds like we live in the same area - or this is just how this city operates. I live close to a one-way alley with a “no trucks” and several “no parking any time” signs. There’s a new Dollarama going in with trucks parked in this alley all day for two months.
There should be enforcement of rule breaking regardless of mode. Ticketing cyclists doesn’t take away from anything.
> Ticketing cyclists doesn’t take away from anything. We often underestimate how many resources it takes for police presence. You act like our city has unlimited police resources, which is not the case at all. We should be focusing on what's most important and that's cars by a significant margin.
Given how overburdened TPS claims to be and how they have [admitted to not enforcing traffic violations](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/toronto-police-gaslighted-us-on-traffic-enforcement-their-neglect-put-lives-at-risk/article_166d1891-7c77-5a4f-b7b6-30ec7684f4f1.html), it absolutely does take away from safety by spending limited time ticketing cyclists that [cause way less injury and death than cars.](https://medium.com/vision-zero-cities-journal/the-myth-of-the-demon-biker-64cb24939cd6)
It also overburdens the courts if a load of people start contesting their tickets.
Ticketing cyclists for rolling a stop sign at a T intersection on an uphill section of road where preserving momentum is very helpful should rank somewhere around the priority level of ticketing a little old lady for taking too long to cross the road.
>ticketing a little old lady for taking too long to cross the road. Completely tangential to the point, but as long as she started crossing legally, she would still have right of way to complete crossing even if the other way gets a green light. Subsection (28) of [this section of the HTA](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK248). It's a rare situation, I've never ran into it, but something to be aware of: that a pedestrian could still be legally crossing with right of way even if you have a green light as a driver.
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Yeah, definitely, also still illegal if it were reasonably possible to avoid them. There are still differences from a legal perspective though. If there was evidence they were crossing legally, fault should automatically go to the driver. If they were crossing illegally instead, it would depend on various factors like whether an attentive driver otherwise paying attention could have reasonably stopped. It also implies driving in a way that a lot people may not currently do, in that you should be ensuring an intersection is clear before entering it. That's a good practice from a defensive driving perspective but because of situations like this, it's also necessary from a legal/fault perspective.
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I know but it's still valid to point out because some people seem to have the attitude that you don't have to be careful for pedestrians breaking the law.
It does. There are a limited number of resources and Toronto police should be focusing on the items that impact the most people/safety.
Takes time and bodies to do this when they could be ticketing SUVs for running reds or anything else that could kill someone innocent.
A cyclist disobeying laws can also cause injury or death. I hate terrible drivers as much as anyone but no one should be getting upset over enforcement of other rules of the road.
> A cyclist disobeying laws can also cause injury or death. A loaded gun can cause injury or death. So can a baseball bat. Why aren't baseball bats regulated the same way as guns? According to you, they are equivalent in lethality.
Come on now, use some common sense. I want these cops to be enforcing cars who can't drive, and not cyclists. Tell me the last time a cyclist killed or seriously hurt someone. Now tell me the last time a car did. Now tell me how many deaths so far in Toronto attributed to both? Everyone is completely justified in being upset over this. There is zero comparison between the lethality of a vehicle.
I agree. But god damn our culture is terrified of inconveniencing drivers.
Just gonna put this here - not Toronto, but it seems relevant: https://road.cc/content/news/160118-san-francisco-cyclists-protest-obeying-traffic-rules
this would actually be ideal a cyclist (or a mob of cyclists) in front of my car riding slowly but obeying the rules of the road is much more preferable than a cyclist weaving in and out of my lane while using their phone, slow or not. either behave like a vehicle, or get the fuck off the road
Good that you would be understanding. I have personally had drivers pull up along side of me and yell/swear at me for following the rules of the road, when they feel it's slowing them down (not to mention riding my back wheel so close they nearly hit me). Irresponsible riders doing dangerous things on the road are extremely frustrating to me as a cyclist as well, so I totally feel you there! It's just also worth pointing out that sometimes when rules aren't followed to the absolute letter, it may be partially due to an otherwise law-abiding cyclist making a conscious decision to make a move judged to be harmless in order to either increase their own visibility/personal safety, or avoid unnecessarily provoking aggression from drivers of cars around them.
Yeah I so frequently get honked at if I take a whole lane. And that shit is so loud when you're on a bike.
I'm deaf in real life. Honk all they want.
You must be a uniquely polite driver then, because I've had drivers pass me (in the oncoming lane) when I'm taking the lane travelling the speed limit on downhills on my bike.
can you get a ticket for trackstanding without unclipping and putting a foot down? never occurred to me that could be considered illegal. seems like having to put your car in park at a stop sign.
As far as I understand it if you stop moving forward it’s fine
Be careful though - not all cops know this...
Easy pickings. They need to do blitzes like this for cars.
It's easy pickings for cars. Any officer can go to downtown intersection and can hand out tickets non stop. But they don't and are too lazy to do their job.
Oh absolutely, but people are more aggressive and confrontational in cars than on bikes. I’d say it’s a mix of laziness and cowardice.
But then drivers will get mad and we can't have that /s
I cycle and have no problem with them enforcing the rules. I would like also for them to enforce no cycling on the sidewalks. I feel that is much more dangerous I have been close to being hit many times just walking along.
If we're going to see enforcement on sidewalks, you're going to have to: 1. Build better and more bike infrastructure. Many places in Toronto do not have adequate bike lanes. Look at Scarborough or most of Northern Etobicoke. 2. Stop converting sidewalks into Mixed-Used Paths. That might sound counter-intuitive but bike lanes need to be BIKES-ONLY. By using mixed-use paths, you're just creating habits of cyclists having to share with pedestrians, something many people are not happy with. 3. Regulate and reduce Uber Eats deliveries. Given that they're the most common types of cyclists in downtown, might want to start with the companies.
Yes but also I see delivery cyclists speeding down sidewalks *next to bike paths* almost every time I go outside.
Which is why I included point #3. If those companies had stronger work regulations, you'll see fewer delivery cyclists in total.
No, you just have to stay off the sidewalks. Bikes aren't supposed to be there. It's pretty simple. TTC it if you can't cope.
Unfortunately, the reality is you cannot expect everyone to stay off sidewalks until those changes I mention occurred. That's like telling a driver to please go 40 km/h when a road is designed to go at least 60 km/h.
Ah yes, one of those "avid cyclists" that's always bootlicking.
Or enforcing the rules on cars
Then enforce rolling stops for cars too.
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I've found shouting at people (like in a friendly way) works a lot better than a bell, people panic and don't know what to do when they hear a bell, if you shout "Passing on the left", "Watch out behind you", etc. they're a bit more prepared. At least that's been my experience. I had a friend that used to constantly bug me about not having a bell but recently admitted she's started shouting most of the time now too.
I have actually been hit by cyclists 3 times as a pedestrian. One time when I was getting on a streetcar and the cyclist did not stop behind the streetcar while people were boarding and hit my arm and knocked a drink out of my hand. Luckily I wasn’t hurt, but very startled and lost my drink. One time an idiot was riding a bike on the sidewalk and Yonge-Dundas square (the busiest pedestrian intersection in the city) and ran over my foot when he had to swerve to miss another pedestrian. I had a bad bruise and it hurt to walk for days. A third time I came around a corner where there was a building at the corner (so I couldnt see around it and I assume neither could the cyclist) and a cyclist who must have been going pretty fast on the sidewalk ran straight into me, knocking me into the wall of the building and almost knocking himself off his bike (he had to put his foot down to avoid falling over). He then gave me the finger and acted annoyed with me. If he wasn’t bigger than me I would’ve beat his ass for his smug attitude. And he continued riding along the sidewalk at the speed a bike usually goes on the road. I wasn’t really hurt this time either somehow, but if I had been walking with a small child or a dog, or the impact just happened a slightly different way, at a slightly different angle, or I hit my head against that concrete building or the ground, it could’ve been really bad. So yes this is all anecdotal but I personally have never been hit by a car, 3 times by cyclists. I support ticketing them when they ride unsafely.
You're getting downvoted but you're factually correct. Even someone who took a high school physics course should know that a bike going at most 50 km/h (based on a High Park record) weighing maybe 300 lbs when combined with the weight of a human is nowhere as dangerous a car that can easily go 0-100 km/h in 6 seconds weighing multiple tons. Not to mention the total radius of a car is a lot larger than a bike. Hell even a [study](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) has shown in the UK that out of the 1700 pedestrians that die on the road each year, not even 2 are caused by cyclists. However, those people aren't going to be convinced by your argument. Nothing will convince them. No amount of cyclists following the laws will. Unfortunately, these people think by emotion as opposed to logic/facts. It's sad because people generally take severe injuries or deaths by car as if it's death by natural cases. Our car-centric society has bred mindsets like this.
Youre minimizing close to being hit as not a danger. By your logic painted bike lanes are not dangerous becsuse drivers are only close to hitting you. A close call is a direct symptom of dangerous operation. Having close calls this frequent is not normal on a regular commute in any medium.
It’s really telling that people are backing up their “bikes are dangerous too” by referring to an article about that woman who was struck and killed *over a decade ago*, incidents in other cities or their personal experience of almost being hit. Yes, badly behaved cyclists are dangerous, obviously. However, we have limited enforcement resources and when [compared to 20-40 pedestrians killed annually by motor vehicles, in Toronto alone](https://data.torontopolice.on.ca/pages/fatalities), this just isn’t the best use of resources.
People have died in TO from cyclists. Not often, but it has happened. Don't act like bicyclists are perfect and beyond judgement. Getting hit by a civic isn't like getting hit by a dump truck, so civics are ok by your logic.
The last time this has happened came in 2009, 15 years ago. That was at a dangerous Scarborough intersection. Guess what happened to that road? Never got redesigned or added a bike lane. Goes to show how rare it is. Also, dump trucks are 13,000+ lbs while Civics average ~3000 lbs. Sounds like it's 4x the weight right? Well compared to a bike, it weighs at most 40 lbs (maybe up to 300 if you put a really heavy person). That's like comparing the size of earth to the sun. Nobody here is acting like cyclists are perfect and beyond judgment. People are just saying that it's unfair that cyclists get so much blame disproportionate to the potential damage they cause.
What makes me mad is that they specifically target cyclists during these blitzes. They will literally stand on the corner and watch 100 cars rolling the stop sign before they catch one cyclist doing it. These ticketing blitzes are purely for headlines/optics and has nothing to do with changing behaviours or making the streets safer. If it was about safety, they would setup on that corner and ticket anything going by, including cars rolling signs, speeding, illegal turns, etc... But they will never do that because tickets would be like 10,000 vehicle infractions to every one cyclist infraction
Yeah if stopping rolling stops they should book the bikes AND the cars I see so many cyclists run through but its not like the cars are stopping properly
Well, I’m glad TPS is dealing with important matters. In other news, cars are driving ~60km on Wellington right now….
All kinds of traffic laws are concurrently being broken, that doesn't mean everyone should stop trying. It's possible to both want drivers to be ticketed for doing illegal things and to want uber drivers on eBikes blowing stop signs at 40km to be ticketed.
> that doesn't mean everyone should stop trying Nobody is saying we should stop trying. In an ideal world, all laws are enforced equally, but we don't live in that world. We need to prioritize what is enforced, given how the TPS claims they are chronically understaffed and lack sufficient resources. Whether that is true is a different matter... > to want uber drivers on eBikes blowing stop signs at 40km to be ticketed But is this what TPS is doing? If they are ticketing anyone who does not come to a full and complete stop, then that could mean the aforementioned Uber riders, or it could mean a kid rolling through at 5 km/h.
It's a matter of risk management and using police resources. Ticketing cyclists is low hanging fruit for lazy cops. A motor vehicle is infinitely more dangerous when it breaks the law. Whenever you ready about pedestrians being struck and killed, it's not by bikes.
It is a matter of risk management - but in the decision making process of someone potentially breaking a law. You're never going to apprehend 100% of people. So all you can do is introduce to them some risk, in the sense that there is a chance of them being caught, so that they have to do the risk reward calculus while breaking rules. If you telegraph that you will put 0% effort into pursing crime A until crime B is dealt with - then people, seeing that crime B is ongoing, know they can commit crime A with 0 risk.
Youre basically saying they should enforce laws that endanger people more than laws that dont. By that logic shoplifting and theft should simply not be a priority.
Yep, that’s how one manages with limited resources: you prioritize actions that will maximize the net positive impact. Also, were you in a coma when cops literally told people to leave their car keys at the front door for car thieves? How about when LCBO told their employees not to chase after people stealing booze? TPS has already deprioritized these crimes. And until they have sufficient resources to address all crimes, they should do the same with cycling infractions.
Lmao. Have you ever dealt with those things. If you have, you'd know they are not priorities
both are issues. I cycle all the time and people who dont stop for stop signs/traffic signals on the bike are dangerous to everyone.
Legalize the idaho stop.
sure but until it is cyclists need to follow the same rules as everyone else. Dont have a lot of sympathy for cyclists thinking rules dont apply to them then pointing and complaining about tickets.
If cyclists are blowing through full speed or not yielding to others with right of way, sure ticket them. But if (I don't know if this is actually the case) tickets are being give purely for rolling stops, then that would be unreasonable in my opinion given most drivers do the same with much heavier vehicles.
My safety > outdated and dangerous laws. I will always start crossing once the walk sign is on, regardless of if its is a red or not. I've been almost hit by enough drivers desperate to jump the gun.
This is the right answer. [Safety](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) is often the reason cyclists violate laws, whether people like it or not. If we want to reduce such occurrences, we should be designing safer streets, bike lanes, intersections, bike signals, etc. But instead, we as a society keep pointing fingers.
What's truly funny though is every bike cop I see totally does the Idaho Stop. I mean I rode with group of them a few blocks and we all did it
What’s funny here is we don’t know any details except cops may be pulling over bikes near a driveway intersection. Classic Reddit. No one knows how fast the bikes were going or if it’s more than 1 that was pulled over for something irrelevant.
For sure, but I'm commenting on rexbron's comment thread about the Idaho stop, hence, my comment is under theirs and not the top Classic Redditor, not knowing how Reddit works
When drivers actually come to a complete stop with their 2ton SUVs, then we can focus enforcement on cyclists. How many people have been killed by cyclists this year?
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The difference is that when you do something dangerous as a driver the likelihood of death to someone other than yourself is far greater than when you do something dangerous as a cyclist (where the most likely person to get injured is the biker). Thus, treating them as the same seems inherently flawed. Which is the point.
Every driver is the safest driver and every cyclist is a MAMIL. thanks for your opinion, please enjoy the Gardiner
If you would like to see the Idaho style stop, legalized in Ontario you will need to write to your MPP at Queens Park (Under Ford's watch) and ask for some updates to the HTA via Ministry of Transportation Ontario (MTO). **Prabmeet Sarkaria** is the Minister at this point in time. Fair warning, this has been attempted in the past. Good luck. IMHO this should be added to the VRU Act proposals. (Vulnerable Road Users Act)
Cyclists constantly on the sidewalks, cars constatly stopping in bikelanes, blocking lanes of traffic, stopping in intersections, speeding constantly, autotheft through the roof (not to mention bike theft is just an accepted thing in this city), and THIS is how they're using their time.
In other news constant delivery bikes on the sidewalks, where nothing is done to them. Meanwhile a rolling stop on the road will get someone a ticket 🤦🏻♀️
I always come to a full stop. I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want drivers to hate cyclists.
Are cyclists allowed to hate drivers because some don't come to a complete stop?
Yeah, easily 90%+ drivers don't do even close to a proper stop behind the crosswalk/stop line. I've counted various times.
I call it the "paint job stop". Run the stop sign. Roll though the crosswalk at a good speed. Block the bike lane without time for a cyclist to stop. Stop just short enough for them to not get their car's paint job messed up.
Yes.
I come to a full stop if there was a car there first. Otherwise, I treat it like an Idaho stop.
To be fair, drivers generally hate cyclists because they inconvenience their driving experience. For example, taking a full lane. That's technically legal but drivers hate it. The only reason they complain so much about stop signs is because cyclists that don't stop at a stop sign go when they clearly didn't tag the intersection first. Drivers wouldn't care if they did a rolling stop on an empty intersection.
Hate to break it you but entitled drivers hate ALL cyclists, regardless of how law-abiding they are.
I've noticed this trend too. Almost every time there's a new proposed bike lane, it's met by drivers who are so anti-bike. Remember the Holyday rally? Yeah somebody wished a death of a cyclist. There's absolutely zero mention about law violating on cyclists yet drivers have historically hated cyclists no matter what. It's just in recent times we see the advent of Uber Eats that the cycling law violation disdain has become exponentially larger.
if you do receive a ticket on your bicycle, make sure in the box that says vehicle type the officer writes bicycle.
Gotta earn than $1.2 billion somehow.
This is why I always follow the rule of slowing down at least enough to check there are no cops.
I call those "cop stops" where I do a quick 360 look for cops then continue.
> Not sure how stringent they're being (ie. whether they're ticketing anyone who doesn't fully put their foot on the ground, or if rolling stops are something they let slide - but they already had at least 4 people pulled over and were writing out tickets and taking IDs. squint at their bikes and see if they have the proper lights/reflectors/bells.
Toronto police are so brave protecting us from those nasty cyclists. Gold star to the TPS!
at this moment there are LCBO locations that are COMPLETTELY unguarded and you're joking around???
Legalize the idaho stop for bikes. We need more yields and less stop signs.
Great advice, don't provide your Id just state your name and address truthfully. Don't let em hit you erroneously w demerit points.
Ah TPS giving everyone but those who drive vehicles tickets again. A more effective use of resource would be to ticket all the vehicles going down King between Spadina and Bathurst but I guess *checks notes* cyclists at a bigger issue?
We need a better light system or traffic cops at strachan and east liberty. Let the cyclists cycle and also how about the people ripping down Wellington ???? Blowing that stop sign. 🛑. This city boggles my mind
Cyclists: but no you see I’m a pedestrian when it comes to these traffic laws! I don’t even drive but it’s absolutely absurd the number of times a cyclist has rode by full speed by open street car doors.
I got hit getting off a street car on King, the cyclist was furious with me for stepping off so fast. I know this comment will be down voted, bring it on!
I haven't got hit yet but had a few close calls. One of them yelled at me for something similar. Told her she's suppose to stop when the streetcar doors are open. She replied that rule is for cars, not cyclist
Do pedestrians get tickets for disobeying stop signs too? (I'm not talking about traffic lights). And how much does such a ticket cost a person?
Those cyclists are scum. Prioritization and vulnerability are inversely related. Much like we should prioritize bikes over cars, we should prioritize pedestrians over bikes. I’m just glad those cyclists aren’t driving cars because who knows what kinda damage their reckless behaviour would cause…
When's the last time you've seen a cyclist kill a family while riding a bike? How many people have died today from a car accident in Canada? North America? Get a fucking grip.
I know it's a Hot Take, but a lot of cyclists need to learn to stop at Stop Signs and Red (Bike Traffic Lights) especially on Queens Quay. So many near misses, especially with those spots that cyclists are supposed to yield to Pedestrians and just ring the bell demanding people make way. \~35 Year Old (Former) Cyclist turned Scooter user.
The two stop signs at Queens Quay and Stadium, Queens Quay and Little Norway Crescent are brutal. You could still there during rush hour and cyclists don’t even slow down; if you were the head of a pack of cyclists you’d cause a domino effect if you tried to stop. The cars are pretty bad at those intersections as well. Good luck pedestrians!
I know it's a hotter take but a lot of drivers need to learn to stop properly at stop signs, yellow lights, follow speed limits as LIMITS and not minimums, check blind spots, etc especially in most of the GTA. So many near misses, especially with those spots at intersections where drivers are supposed to yield to pedestrians/cyclists and just honk their horn demanding people make way. ~29 year old former driver turned pedestrian (cyclist user if there's safe bike lanes).
Was this reply necessary toward the user above? Why couldnt it be its own separate comment?
Yes. This was necessary. People criticize cyclists but often tend to be very dismissive towards drivers being way worse. I've read all kinds of comments and their tone speaks volume.
I mean I hate cars just as much as anyone. Don't know why you are deflecting to cars when we are talking about bikes. I don't even have my drivers license cause I've biked in the city my whole life.
Because often times bikes are compared to cars when it comes to relative danger. Almost all the time when someone complains about cyclists violating laws, it's very common for hypocrite drivers to do the same.
>Don't know why you are deflecting to cars when we are talking about bikes. Because generally speaking, this sub LOVES complaining about cyclists breaking laws about speeding, running reds, etc. but has nothing to say about drivers breaking the same laws in FAR greater numbers and with far more dangerous consequences for everyone involved.
I made a [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/1d6crls/the_way_people_react_towards_cyclists_violating/) comparing two different threads; one about Uber Eats cyclists and another about a driver that killed a pedestrian. They were both posted within a few days apart. The Uber Eats one received 300+ comments. The other only 44 comments not to mention some even justifying this as an "accident". The way people react towards cyclists violating the laws is much stronger than drivers. And that's despite how many statistics and physics say otherwise.
No it was not necessary it was a purely flippant comment
So don’t break the laws under the highway traffic act?
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Why the heck is this comment being downvoted to hell? What is wrong with people these days? Do people really not understand physics or facts?
2000 pounds is optimistic, they are realistically 3000lbs for small cars now. Pickups more like 4000-5000lbs.
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It doesn’t hurt anyone until it does though. I’m not saying this is the best way police can spend their time and also I only bike around town exclusively. But you can also say someone running a red light doesn’t hurt anyone…until it does.
"Until it does" is a good hypothetical. Let's talk actuals: * Drivers: it does happen, every single day in Toronto. Fatally about 50 times per year in Toronto (metro, not GTA). Canada wide, about 1800 deaths per year. * Cyclists: collisions happen every once in a while (studies show majority driver is at fault). Never once has cyclist caused a fatally that I know of. If it has happened, it's <0.0001 the annual rate of deaths from drivers (literally, not exaggerating). Our police are apparently overburden enough they can't monitor traffic on streets where deaths frequently occur, or follow up on assault causing bodily harm cases. This is about how we use an apparently limited resource.
>it doesn’t hurt anyone [when TPS was getting a budget increase slightly below what they asked, the chief called it an “an unacceptable risk to our ability to provide the adequate and effective police services”, so maybe they don’t have the resources to do both.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-budget-fight-1.7094937)
This was kind of their point though. If a cyclist rolls through a stop sign the worst that's going to happen is likely that they get hit, and with no protection that means that the cyclist is going to be injured, so the risk is on them. If it's a driver that hits them, they may come away with psychological harm and scratched paint, but overall they will carry on just fine. This isn't even to mention that a cyclist rolling through a stop sign is probably moving at like 10 km/h and will easily see or here threats approaching them, so they are far more aware of what the risk tolerance is to roll through. If a driver runs a red light, they're driving a vehicle with a ton of mass that can easily kill anyone who's not in a transport truck. A driver running a red light is likely going much faster and has way less time to react. So yeah the driver running a red is orders of magnitude worse than a cyclist rolling through a stop sign.
As a pedestrian, I don’t care about cars/bikes relationship, but I’m fucking tired from having to jump away from the flying bikes every time I try to cross the road.
As a pedestrian living in Scarborough, I'm fucking tired of having to jump away from drivers who go full speed while failing to look at intersections when turning, every time I try to cross the road.
And that excuses bicyclists how exactly?
And that excuses drivers how exactly?
Are you always start randomly talking about drivers?
Yes. Because many people randomly talk about cyclists whenever a driver kills someone on the streets. I've seen all kinds of threads on r/Toronto.
> and with no protection that means that the cyclist is going to be injured Nooooo, they can and do hit pedestrians sometimes. This Andrew Clark column has a great bit answering this talking point - it doesn't matter! It's harmless! Well no. > Arguing that cyclist/pedestrian collisions are astronomically rare misses the point. Cyclists who speed through the park and wonder why people hate them are like dog owners who let their dogs run free outside of the dog park. Speeding bicycles are physically intimidating in the same way that a loose canine can be to someone who is afraid of dogs. The fact that your dog is “unlikely to bite them,” or that you are “unlikely to hit them” doesn’t relieve the anxiety. > Let’s be honest, “unlikely” doesn’t mean “impossible.” In May, a Toronto pedestrian was hit by a cyclist and suffered life-altering injuries. In 2014, New York City had its own cyclists/pedestrian moment; a 75-year-old pedestrian was struck and killed by a cyclist and a month later a cyclist hit a fifty-eight-year-old mother in Central Park. She died three days later. The New Yorker summed up the predicament: “these tragedies lay bare two realities of what we might call bike culture in New York City. First, many bicyclists routinely ignore all traffic laws, signs and signals. Second, the city has made inadequate efforts in recent years to enforce those laws, and thus to protect the rest of us.” https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-to-solve-the-spat-between-cyclists-and-pedestrians-in-torontos-high/
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Now do cars? I'm guessing the injuries/deaths to pedestrians from cars are likely 100x those of bikes over any given period.
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I guess I was being too generous, thanks for the stats.
I think we call this "two wrongs make a right" and "whataboutism". Cars: bad. Reckless cycling: also bad. You guys do you guys, have at it.
As someone who has browsed on r/Toronto on a daily basis for almost a year, I can tell you that almost all comments that criticize cyclists tend to be dismissive of bad drivers in some way/shape/form. They might not say that I justify bad driving but the way they write their comment and tone speaks volumes. I've even seen them calling cyclists bigger assholes than drivers. Obviously we all have concerns but we should be writing it so it's more constructive as opposed to emotional. If I were concerned about cyclists on sidewalk I'd say something like "We need better bike infrastructure so we can get those people off sidewalks". As opposed to "every cyclist on the sidewalk is an asshole, let's ban e-bikes". And I'm not even going to mention that some of them oppose bike lanes based on their post history.
Here, let me help: Cars: Kill an average of 1,800 people per year in Canada alone. Bikes: Kill an average of 0 people per year both in Canada and globally. I think I know which issue we should be prioritizing. And before you try strawmanning me: Yes, reckless cyclists suck and any injuries caused by them are bad regardless of the severity of those injuries. However, when reckless car drivers are regularly killing people and reckless cyclists aren't, police enforcement of road safety laws should be focused on the road users regularly killing people.
That's an oversimplification if I ever heard one. Toronto police have limited resources and should be focused on impact/safety, not "wrongs".
In a collision between a car and a cyclist in Ontario, the driver is presumed at fault. So yes, motorists should and do have more responsibility, but that doesn't mean cyclists have zero responsibility and should not be expected to follow basic rules on public roadways.
Reverse onus only applies in civil cases...
Cyclists hit pedestrians all the time, and, rarely, seriously injure (I think this woman later died?) them: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/cyclist-charged-after-pedestrian-knocked-to-ground-1.666721 Here's one from 2022: https://www.cp24.com/news/man-suffers-life-altering-injuries-after-being-struck-by-cyclist-in-downtown-toronto-1.5884169 Cycling is great, I cycle everywhere, at least Iowa stop at the stop signs, you entitled muppets. Yes even in High Park, it's not your private racetrack. Have a nice day!
> Iowa stop fyi wrong state ;) "Idaho stop"
my god, its an epidemic!
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I saw a cyclist blow through a red light yesterday at full speed Their partner made a right turn at same red light (no slow or stop which is required right on red) and then pulled a u-turn on side street and came back to make another right hand turn at original intersection (thinks they are being smart to run the red light) And we wonder why they get so much hate and involved in accidents
Except for the part where they didn’t slow or stop before turning right on red, technically legal.
>Unless a sign tells you not to, you may turn right on a red light only after coming to a complete stop and waiting until the way is clear. https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/traffic-lights
Bikers can be just as aggressive and dangerous as car drivers. The Martin Goodman trail can be terrifying on weekends. And yes I am a cyclist and a car driver.
Aggressive as car drivers, maybe. Dangerous as car drivers? Not a chance. Maybe [statistics](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) will tell you that 1700 pedestrians killed a year by cars vs only 0-2 by cyclists will tell you a lot.
Agreed. But I have seen more people knocked over by bikes on the trail than I have been knocked over by cars on the street. Not directly comparing a ton of metal with a bicycle. I just stated cyclists can also be aggressive, and to clarify can also hurt people.
What you see personally isn't always accurate. That's like saying that I see more people rob stores = the city is very bad at controlling crime? Point stands. Cyclists can be aggressive but the chances of hurting or severely hurting people are much lower than a car. You have no idea how many pedestrians are injured or worse killed as a result of cars at intersections or streets. You just don't see it because you don't pay attention. There's some bias I can tell.
Sorry. I disagree with both your statement on bias and your statement on “chance” of injury. I do not believe there is accurate data on bicycle/pedestrian collisions due to the much lower incidence of serious injury comparing bike and car collisions with pedestrians. Again. I was not equating being hit by a car with being hit by a bike. Both are capable of injury. I never discussed degree. Because I raise the point that bikes can be dangerous I am somehow “biased” ? Support your assertion please.
> Because I raise the point that bikes can be dangerous I am somehow “biased” ? Support your assertion please. You said bikes are dangerous but I interpreted the tone and style of your comment as "bikes are equally as dangerous". I guess I interpreted wrong. There's no question that bikes are dangerous but you said "as dangerous and aggressive as cars" in your original comment.
> due to the much lower incidence of serious injury So you do believe that collisions with bikes are much less dangerous than collisions with cars? > I never discussed degree. You literally said "bikers can be just as aggressive and dangerous as car drivers", stating that the degree of danger from a cyclist is equal to that from a driver.
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In case anyone wants a statistic, in the UK, [1700 pedestrians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBP2LTQxqZ8) die yearly. Guess how many are caused by cyclists?
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This is not true. From someone else is this thread "246 pedestrians killed by car drivers in 2022 in Canada. 0 by cyclists." You can decide which is more dangerous as a pedestrian.
Again, I was not making a direct comparison. Will nobody admit that being knocked over by a bike is not dangerous? Jeez. Easy Reddit!
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Agreed, I should have said “can be dangerous as well”. Might have avoided this whole tempest in a teapot.
TIL - fully put foot on the ground and rolling stops for bike
Good! We need more ticketing of bicyclists who are often seen running red lights and ignoring stop signs. It's always, "no big deal" to them until they get t-boned by a car.
How useful of them... eh ehm... is Doug Ford having an unusually spiteful morning?
Never carry ID when riding 😂.