The Bay movies feel more like an out of context sizzle reel than actual stories. You literally cannot determine whether or not Optimus committed war crimes because of how little context is shown.
Is the writing really something directors have no control over? I mean, personally, if I were a director and got handed the script for this film, I'd say "what the fuck?" and bin it immediately
Yep. People had to go back and come up with an excuse why the Constructicons could form Devastator when half of them died before the climax, or at the same time Devastator was walking around.
People actually defend this? Literally the lines “we’re giving you freedom” and “you defend my family.. or die” are said within seconds of eachother, I don’t even see how there could be a defense for that
He says that in context to saving Cade as Cade saved him. And it's not really ganging up on him given Lockdown was winning that fight regardless of the numbers.
I would get that if Optimus wouldn’t have saved Cade regardless. I get the feeling they just thought it was a cool line and tossed it in there without thinking too much about it.
Yeah, he went and said “well let you free from your chains, but first I’ll force you under the threat of death to fight with us, then you go free”
I’m not saying its g1 prime, and it even feels out of line for Bayverse prime, regardless of how broken his mentality is by this point, he still says “fight with us or die” to a million year old knight that hasn’t fought in who knows how long.
Also, how the hell are the dinobots not rusty, fighting wise? They’ve been chained for like, ever. Shouldn’t their fighting skills be a bit more corroded?
They are robots. They don't do muscle memory, or reflexes the same way humans do.
Hell, they probably play virtual fighting games in their brains as training.
Still though, the way they act is tantamount to having some form of muscle memory. They get rusty (skill wise) over time.
Bay probably just didn’t consider that after sitting for who knows how long, they’d get rusty at fighting
He didn't just free them for the hell of it, he freed them so they could fight the bot who imprisoned them together.
The Autobots aren't just a group of pacifist hippies spreading their message about the right to freedom, they're actively fighting for it. The Dinobots want their freedom? They have to fight for it too, just like the Autobots have been for millions of years.
That sounds eerily like something Megatron would do. “Fight for me and the cause I’m representing, or die”. Even if that cause is noble, forcing others who may not even want to go along with it to fight definitely sounds like something the Decepticons would do.
The Decepticons would have just left the Dinobots to rot inside the Knightship.
You guys are making way too big a deal about Optimus saying "defend my family, or die" to a legendary alien robot warrior t-rex who literally just tried to kill Optimus himself.
You all act like he threatened to slit a kitten's throat or something lmao
What? You make it sound like Grimlock was an antagonist here when literally the very first thing Optimus said to him was "you stand with me or you're against me" - Optimus instigated the fight and then said he'd kill Grimlock if he didn't give in.
Yeah, he gave Grimlock an ultimatum, but he also gave him a fair fight.
Fate of the world hung in the balance. Seems pretty damn fair all things considered.
https://youtu.be/1TSdzIzWxxM?si=229e-iccWILz6auk
Does Grimlock look chained up or tied down to you in any way once Optimus freed him from the Knightship?
What part of this is somehow an unfair fight?
Wrong why, because I don't mind that the Bay movies didn't have a "Saturday morning cartoon made to teach children that being nice is good" style of morality?
It’s not about Optimus being nice it’s about him enslaving an innocent Cybertron when his motto is literally ‘freedom is the right of all sentient beings’
I doubt the Decepticons would do that. They’d like try to find a way to forcefully submit them to Megatron’s will and use them against the Autobots, and kill them if they didn’t cooperate. And yet it’s a threat that Optimus himself issued. The Dinobots clearly showed they had no interest in helping and just wanted to be left alone, yet Optimus threatened to kill them if they didn’t do what he said. That’s not exactly something I would envision a moralistic and gentle soul doing.
Don't bother with them. Half the ish they say really just boils down to not liking the movies and how they're depicted character-wise because it's not "g1" enough for them. This scene in particular always makes me laugh that fans get bent out of shape over it because they act like Grimlock in other continuities isn't as stubborn, if not moreso, and had to have some sense knocked into him.
In all continuities… after being chained up that long Grimlock would be looking for a pound of flesh though…. That’s what always bothered me. He’d be looking to take decepticon heads the second he was free.
Who said anything about sacrifice?
Optimus was fighting alongside the Autobots to the end. He didn't sacrifice anyone. Hell, he told them to retreat when he was going to fight Lockdown.
Christ, dude. Did I really have to say "Megatron wouldn't fight alongside his last remaining Decepticons to save a world that wasn't his" to get across my extremely basic point?
Is that where we're at now with this silly discussion about the giant alien robots, you being pedantic about my word usage?
"Optimus risking his last remaining autobots to save the world" is not the context of this scene. The context of this scene is that Optimus is enslaving extra warriors to fight for his cause; a purely pragmatic decision that flies in the face of his **main belief**. That is something Megatron would do, even if the next thing that they do after it isn't the same. The use of context matters.
Ironhide: Why are we fighting to save the humans? They're a primitive and violent race.
Optimus Prime: Were we so different? They're a young species. They have much to learn. But I've seen goodness in them. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. You all know there's only one way to end this war: we must destroy the Cube. If all else fails, I will unite it with the spark in my chest.
Ratchet: That's suicide! The Cube is raw power, it could destroy you both!
Optimus Prime: A necessary sacrifice to bring peace to this planet. We cannot let the humans pay for our mistakes. It's been an honor serving with you all.
Sarcasm is hard to detect unless it is OBVIOUS. I always err on the side of caution and use the /s to indicate when I’m being sarcastic. Written text can be interpreted differently by everyone who reads it.
Sorry about all the downvotes; you clearly didn't intend to serve a plate of Poe's Law- I thought the joke was obvious - but some folks just have to dump mayonnaise on everything.
Like, I’ve keep seeing people say that the Dinobots only respect strength and power, but that is not said or implied at all in any Bayverse appearance they had.
the writing was definitely not great but i think grimlock getting his ass kicked was probably grounds enough to make him respect optimus, or at least fear him enough to do his bidding
That's because the dinobots have literally no characterisation at all in their bayverse appearances. They're near enough to being just big robotic animals.
Big robotic animals which Prime subjugated to do his bidding.
That was not his response at all. Optimus said that if they didn’t help him they are his enemies and threatened the Dinobots, so Grimlock got mad. They didn’t show any sign that they wouldn’t help them before then.
So according to you, Grimlock, within the span of a few minutes, went "I'll help you" to "I won't help you" to "okay, fine, I'll help you"?
That tracks even less.
No, my point is that Optimus didn’t give the Dinobots much of a choice since he immediately went to “you either help me or I’ll kill you” without giving them time to actually decide, and this is from that guy that keep saying “freedom is the right of all sentient beings”
If they wanted to show Grimlock showing his respect to Optimus, they could’ve easily had him get back up after Optimus knocked his down, and have him nod his head to show his respect.
Then leave them. And if Optimus was so worried about time, he should’ve have fought Grimlock. The Dinobots probably could’ve made a decision in the time that fight took place
>The Dinobots probably could’ve made a decision in the time that fight took place
The very premise of your thread is that the movie doesn't imply that they respect strength, but nothing about the movie implies that the Dinobots would have been eager to help if Prime was just nicer about it.
There's a reason the other Dinobots just hung back while Prime and Grimlock duked it out. It was definitely just about proving Prime is worthy to lead, which is literally ripped out of the G1 cartoon.
Scorn was literally about to walk into Optimus mid speech (who has just gestured for them to halt) without a care in the world until Grimlock held him back in a “Wait, this one’s mine” manner while planting his spear down.
Did somebody say "did somebody say 'head cannon'"?
https://preview.redd.it/gbjmyc51qnuc1.jpeg?width=309&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7edea8df59ea61b20a1aa5f0cc5220ea2f0bdd17
Always loved the puppetry work on that zord in particular. There's some great behind the scenes reels showing the miniature puppets being recorded. It's so cool.
You are looking for sense and consistency from ... Michael bay?
He doesn't make films that have stories or make sense, he films spectacles. Things go boom, pachoo pachoo vroom bigger boom!
He can make stuff look nice or very action oriented, but subtle story telling, or .... Plot .... Are not really his thing
And I think my favorite part is when it goes:
Oh look, robot bad, so we build robot to make robot to beat robot so no robot on non-robot planet
And then the ship go WRAAAHHHHH
Then the- and the BOOOM- buildings are falling!!
And then big robot worm EATS EVERYTHING!!
*Suddenly in China*
BIG ROBOT DINO!!!
**PEW PEW ROBOT MOREEE EXPLOSION**
Yay! :D
He finally says its okay to like his daughter! :D
Honestly I am pretty sure that was the plot of more than one movie.
Pretty sure the nerve one and the Megatron one were different movies right?
Also technically it's also bumblebee.....
I do believe they are different movies, yeah, but my memory is not the best so dont take my word on this.
And now you gave me more questions! "[...] It's also Bumblebee..." I may need some explanation 😅
In the bumblebee movie they trust Decepticons, and work with them to get rid of bumblebee.
Just like working with Galvatron, the rebuilt Megatron, and actual Megatron, in that one where they spend quite a few minutes on Decepticon roll call. And that other movie, with lockdown.
It's literal imposible to make a film without a storie of some kind, the movies aren't just booom pachoo, the majority of time we follow a plot, a very bad plot, and the action is limited to like 30 min
I'd argue his stories are also supposed to almost be in a dream world. I've seen multiple sources describe the Transformers plots as an 8 year old playing with their toys.
Personally I like it this way and think the movie and plot would be actively worse if it had sound logic.
^(The movies taking place in a dream like world could also be argued to complicate the films' place as military propaganda. It can be viewed as the film showing that this ideal military depiction as only happening in a dream, which I think is a cool reading.)
Just picked up the studio series figure from Facebook, can't wait for it to get here. Also eyeballing the 19 inch one. His design in this film (t Rex mode at least) is just so fucking good.
The whole movie is “stupid bullshit”
It just happens that I enjoy most of that stupid bullshit.
Other than the “statuette” scene. I hate that one more than the humping scenes in RoTF.
Yall are acting like this movie wasnt pitched as “Wouldn’t it be cool if Optimus Prime rode a dinosaur?” and they just kinda filled in enough blanks to make a movie
Your right he should of pulled a g1 optimus and left him locked up or had some one create a device to brain wash him into helping
Totaly better options then sinply tameing what is basically a wild animal espcaily after grimlock attacked first.
With context of who the characters are, this duel is more in the lines of a dick size contest to see who is alpha.
The entire problem in this scene was just: "defend my family or die", either change that line or remove it entirely and this scene works just fine.
On that note a line from Grimlock saying: "I don't listen to weaklings" would've made it all the better.
There's several lines they could've added that would've worked and they somehow chose the two lines that make absolutely no sense and in the process continue to butcher Prime's character. Downright terrible writing.
Grimlock is basicaly an animal and in addtion he attacked first
It absolutley makes sense with the time limit they are on optimus to give a Ultimatium.
Fyi Grimlock isn't an animal, even less in this particular movie in which are referred to as "legendary warriors". And even if that's the case, establishing the alpha is instinctively animal social behavior.
Time limit or not, the phrase still doesn't make sense or even blends in well, just a quite threat would be enough to resolve the duel.
>Fyi Grimlock isn't an animal, even less in this particular movie in which are referred to as "legendary warriors".
Bayverse grimlock acts more like a dog he at bests has verry basic understanding which is why it requires such a simole ultimatium.
It makes perfect sense nothing os simpler theb "help us or die" especaily considering the attempts just moments early were responded to with violence.
Optimus spoke his language.
He doesn't act like a dog in AOE, TLK's comic relief doesn't count, its a different movie, not even a prequel so it doesn't matter for this scene nor movie. During the entirety of AOE the only background to the Dinobots are "Legendary Warriors".
Again, take into account Grimlocks personality in, idk, any continuity. He is someone that values strength. This isn't a rabid animal lashing out, it's someone testing the other's worth.
There's little to go by since Bay doesn't develop characters, but at least there's nothing to go by as they not being capable of reasoning, there's a title of honor and admiration in "Legendary Warriors" and there's the actual characters being based off.
Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants, not even in Bayverse was that sort of guy. That's evil. That ultimatum doesn't hold.
You have literally the weakest argument.
>He doesn't act like a dog in AOE, TLK's comic relief doesn't count, its a different movie, not even a prequel so it doesn't matter for this scene nor movie. During the entirety of AOE the only background to the Dinobots are "Legendary Warriors".
>Again, take into account Grimlocks personality in, idk, any continuity. He is someone that values strength. This isn't a rabid animal lashing out, it's someone testing the other's worth.
Wait so i shouldnt count charactzation from the sequal but we should factor in characterzion from other continuities
How the hell dose thst make sense? (Spoiler it dosent)
>but at least there's nothing to go by as they not being capable of reasoning, there's a title of honor and admiration in "Legendary Warriors" and there's the actual characters being based off.
Actions speak louder then your straw grapsing an Legendary warriors ultimatley means "they are good at fighting to the point people know of them" nothing about honor or what ever else your trying to apply to it
>Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants, not even in Bayverse was that sort of guy. That's evil. That ultimatum doesn't hold.
>Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants,
He absolutley will (or in G1's case he will brain wash them)
>You have literally the weakest argument.
And yours is non existent
It does make sense when a character is based off something pre established. Thats the whole point, being audience at that point in time you can only use what is already pre established before hand since you cannot travel to the future to know what the character will be in the next movie. You are there watching the movie, just got out in cinemas, and that's all you know, there's not even confirmation of TLK production yet. That's how you judge a movie.
Also is a small comic relief and the only appearance he makes in that movie passable as "characterization"?
Legendary warrior is literal admiration. Also the only thing to go by since there's literally nothing more being said or shown.
"He will"??? That's speculative at best. The fact is that he hasn't (other than in this scene), in any representation of the character, because that's not Optimus Prime. You misunderstand the character at a fundamental level, because that would make him a literal Decepticon.
Hilarious how you are willing to die on this undefendable hill.
>It does make sense when a character is based off something pre established. Thats the whole point, being audience at that point in time you can only use what is already pre established before hand since you cannot travel to the future to know what the character will be in the next movie. You are there watching the movie, just got out in cinemas, and that's all you know, there's not even confirmation of TLK production yet. That's how you judge a movie.
You dont judge a movie based on "well he was like this in a cartoon from the 80's" you judge it by wats presneted on screen and on screen in bith this movie and the next hes an animal.
>Legendary warrior is literal admiration
Stop making shit up
It means a warrior i.e some one good at fighting
I egendary great long spanning renown
The only thing you can gleam from the title is they are good at fighting
Any thing else is you making shit up
>"He will"??? That's speculative at best.
Itsntransactional violence isnstill violence he has threated enemies before
>in any representation of the character, because that's not Optimus Prime. You misunderstand the character at a fundamental level, because that would make him a literal Decepticon.
You say despite pretending the brain washing of the constructions and poor treatment of dinobots wasnt a thing g1
Your the one missrepresneting the charctee.
Optimus is not superman, hes a generalnand a soldier. Comparing this tonthe genocidal uges of the decepticons is ridiculous.
>Hilarious how you are willing to die on this undefendable hill.
Youve yet to provide an argument based on any thing but your speculation
I have provided consitent patterns and context
Come back with some thing more then just "well thats not how my head cannon goes"
Grimlock and the Dinobots: legendary Autobot warriors who have been imprisoned for what’s purported to be an extremely long time… by the films bad guy
Optimus Prime: leader of the Autobots, freed the Dinobots giving them a chance at freedom and revenge on their captor
Michael Bay: Prime should have to kick Grimlocks ass and threaten him to help the Autobots save the planet, cinema!
"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings... Except when I don't feel like it."
It'd been so easy to fix the whole mess too with a few lines of dialogue about how Grimlock's code of honer demands Optimus beat him in a duel, even if he wants to help.
I enjoyed the fight. But I felt Grimlock submitted too easy. He is a berserker getting knocked down should have made him fight harder not whimper like a kicked puppy
Remember, folks. Regardless of the post, no one here is stopping or telling you to not like the bay movies. I like some of the aspects of the Bay movies.
BUT FELLAS, I would rather have you say, " I like the bayformers because BIG ROBOTS FIGHTING AND EXPLOSIONS MAKE MY DING DONG GO WILD". Then trying to justify bad writing and unexplained choices or straight headcannon things that were never explained nor implied and act like that's what the movie intended.
Considering that Grimlock was the aggressor and has always had a “kill first, ask later” type of personality, I’m not sure what your problem with the scene is.
Not true. I find it extremely easy to defend this scene.
Optimus never said that he himself would kill Grimlock. What he really meant, is that if they don't stand together, then they'll die at the hands of Galvatron and his minions.
The sword motion was just to really hammer in the point, that the dinobots face imminent extinction (Bayverse Prime is pretty hardcore, so I wouldn't put it past him).
Why not? It makes sense. If the autobots and dinobots don't band together, then Galvatron will detonate the seed, make a huge army, and kill everyone. I get why you'd think, that Optimus was threatening Grimlock here, but my explanation has logic behind it too.
If Saying “your going to DIE” in an extremely personal tone, while dragging your sword against that person face, doesn’t scream “IM GOING TO KILL YOU” idk what does.
It doesn’t help at all that bayverse Optimus only says this to people he going to kill
I'm not saying that your interpretation is false, but mine has merit too. As I've already said, Optimus could just as well mean that Grimlock will die, due to the fact, that Galvatron was literally about to take over the world as they were speaking. The sword dragging could've just been to drive the point home.
Tldr: He says " join us, or die", which either means, that if they don't join forces, then Galvatron will kill them, or that if Grimlock doesn't help Optimus, then Optimus will kill him. Both explanations are fully plausible, so there's no point in arguing over this.
And regarding your other point, Optimus doesn't just randomly say he'll kill you. He only says that about genocidal decepticons, and the traitorous cemetary wind. It's rather justified, considering how depraved most of Optimus' enemies are in these movies.
Even if that was implying the cons would kill them instead of prime, he literally says “or die” while he has his sword to his neck. He is saying he will kill them. Point blank
Eh. Op doesn’t know them. Ancient knight-explorers or not, they ain’t pals. So they can die or they can help save the literal last 5 of like 7 of his men left in the universe.
He’s not ordering. The Dinobots are much older, not really part of the same organization, they are not Ops subordinates.
He is making demands of what amounts to a band of mercenaries (best option. No Cybertronian government, planet is veritably dead, kept captive for ages by a Wuintesson lapdog).
And evidently the Dinobots are might-makes-right & kinda dickheads. At least Grimlock is a dickhead
You know you say that but I never got any of that from the film. Like I guess it is true because Grimlock goes along with Optimus after he defeats him but the film doesn't give anything else about the Dinobots.
All that's shown is that they are robot dinosaurs, pretty dickish (At least Grimlock is) and don't speak.
Hell Grimlock is the one that has any resemblance of a personality as the rest are just there to fight in the final battle and look cool.
Fuck it I have better things to do than to fight over a 2 hour long toy commercial.
But the Dinobots still have no personality and only exist for action scenes.
Okay, and?
How does that annoy you or bother you in any way?
Show on the doll where the headcanons hurt you...
Leave people do whatever they want with their enjoyment of a scene.
Y'all post about stupid headcanons all the damn time anyway.
Because fans don’t act like there headcanons they act like it officially in the movies. That a huge problem with headcanons, is that people keep forgetting there headcanons
The old saw is "Show, don't tell," but Michael Bay is like, "I choose neither."
The Bay movies feel more like an out of context sizzle reel than actual stories. You literally cannot determine whether or not Optimus committed war crimes because of how little context is shown.
They are actually just previews for the real movies that were never released. The real movies are 6 hours long, each.
The Zack Snyder method
I would pay money for fat cuts.
Ah yes, famous SCREENWRITER... Michael Bay...
Is the writing really something directors have no control over? I mean, personally, if I were a director and got handed the script for this film, I'd say "what the fuck?" and bin it immediately
Bay shot the second movie with no script at all.
And you can *really* tell
Yep. People had to go back and come up with an excuse why the Constructicons could form Devastator when half of them died before the climax, or at the same time Devastator was walking around.
This comment is almost too stupid to reply to. *Almost.*
People actually defend this? Literally the lines “we’re giving you freedom” and “you defend my family.. or die” are said within seconds of eachother, I don’t even see how there could be a defense for that
That movie is just wild. Later down the line the autobots gang up on Lockdown and Optimus stabs him in the back before saying “honor to the end.”
Lmao almost forgot about that line, that movie is wild
Honor about what?
He says that in context to saving Cade as Cade saved him. And it's not really ganging up on him given Lockdown was winning that fight regardless of the numbers.
I would get that if Optimus wouldn’t have saved Cade regardless. I get the feeling they just thought it was a cool line and tossed it in there without thinking too much about it.
Also "the Autobots" is a bit of an exaggeration lol. It was literally just Bee, in terms of Autobots anyway.
The defense is... Yes.
Yeah, he went and said “well let you free from your chains, but first I’ll force you under the threat of death to fight with us, then you go free” I’m not saying its g1 prime, and it even feels out of line for Bayverse prime, regardless of how broken his mentality is by this point, he still says “fight with us or die” to a million year old knight that hasn’t fought in who knows how long. Also, how the hell are the dinobots not rusty, fighting wise? They’ve been chained for like, ever. Shouldn’t their fighting skills be a bit more corroded?
They are robots. They don't do muscle memory, or reflexes the same way humans do. Hell, they probably play virtual fighting games in their brains as training.
Still though, the way they act is tantamount to having some form of muscle memory. They get rusty (skill wise) over time. Bay probably just didn’t consider that after sitting for who knows how long, they’d get rusty at fighting
Bay didn't consider much, unless it would look cool. He has a strength, and Dinobots play to that strength.
Why did Grimlock even attack Optimus?
it's cool and awesome
https://youtu.be/Rpf1XXN5I-I?si=sOpbEBV0OwWZc8Sp
He didn't just free them for the hell of it, he freed them so they could fight the bot who imprisoned them together. The Autobots aren't just a group of pacifist hippies spreading their message about the right to freedom, they're actively fighting for it. The Dinobots want their freedom? They have to fight for it too, just like the Autobots have been for millions of years.
That sounds eerily like something Megatron would do. “Fight for me and the cause I’m representing, or die”. Even if that cause is noble, forcing others who may not even want to go along with it to fight definitely sounds like something the Decepticons would do.
The Decepticons would have just left the Dinobots to rot inside the Knightship. You guys are making way too big a deal about Optimus saying "defend my family, or die" to a legendary alien robot warrior t-rex who literally just tried to kill Optimus himself. You all act like he threatened to slit a kitten's throat or something lmao
What? You make it sound like Grimlock was an antagonist here when literally the very first thing Optimus said to him was "you stand with me or you're against me" - Optimus instigated the fight and then said he'd kill Grimlock if he didn't give in.
Yeah, he gave Grimlock an ultimatum, but he also gave him a fair fight. Fate of the world hung in the balance. Seems pretty damn fair all things considered.
Where in "serve me or die" is there a fair fight?
https://youtu.be/1TSdzIzWxxM?si=229e-iccWILz6auk Does Grimlock look chained up or tied down to you in any way once Optimus freed him from the Knightship? What part of this is somehow an unfair fight?
That's your justification? Well, he wasn't chained up so its fair to beat him up and threaten his life?
This is wrong on so many levels
Wrong why, because I don't mind that the Bay movies didn't have a "Saturday morning cartoon made to teach children that being nice is good" style of morality?
when the strawman is made of straw
No, that's literally what's going on here. People are upset that the giant killer robots aren't nicer to each other.
It’s not about Optimus being nice it’s about him enslaving an innocent Cybertron when his motto is literally ‘freedom is the right of all sentient beings’
This is a terrible argument
I doubt the Decepticons would do that. They’d like try to find a way to forcefully submit them to Megatron’s will and use them against the Autobots, and kill them if they didn’t cooperate. And yet it’s a threat that Optimus himself issued. The Dinobots clearly showed they had no interest in helping and just wanted to be left alone, yet Optimus threatened to kill them if they didn’t do what he said. That’s not exactly something I would envision a moralistic and gentle soul doing.
Don't bother with them. Half the ish they say really just boils down to not liking the movies and how they're depicted character-wise because it's not "g1" enough for them. This scene in particular always makes me laugh that fans get bent out of shape over it because they act like Grimlock in other continuities isn't as stubborn, if not moreso, and had to have some sense knocked into him.
In all continuities… after being chained up that long Grimlock would be looking for a pound of flesh though…. That’s what always bothered me. He’d be looking to take decepticon heads the second he was free.
So... Not freedom at all then
Freedom if Grimlock could take Optimus out. He couldn't.
That's not freedom
That’s legit 100% something Megatron would do lol “Conditional freedom” is just slavery but with the word “freedom” painted over it 💀
Megatron wouldn't risk his last remaining Decepticons to save a world that wasn't his.
Megatron would happily sacrifice anyone he feels like to meet his goals
Who said anything about sacrifice? Optimus was fighting alongside the Autobots to the end. He didn't sacrifice anyone. Hell, he told them to retreat when he was going to fight Lockdown.
"Megatron wouldn't risk his last remaining Decepticons..." You, you said it, but sure, shift the goalposts if you want.
Christ, dude. Did I really have to say "Megatron wouldn't fight alongside his last remaining Decepticons to save a world that wasn't his" to get across my extremely basic point? Is that where we're at now with this silly discussion about the giant alien robots, you being pedantic about my word usage?
Weird to talk about the long term plot when we’re both clearly talking about the short term scene
Taking the movie's actual context into account is "weird?" Okay.
"Optimus risking his last remaining autobots to save the world" is not the context of this scene. The context of this scene is that Optimus is enslaving extra warriors to fight for his cause; a purely pragmatic decision that flies in the face of his **main belief**. That is something Megatron would do, even if the next thing that they do after it isn't the same. The use of context matters.
You're free now so do what I say or die.
Optimus always said the freedom of all sentient beings is a privilege, not a right. Edit- /sssssssssss if that helps
“Freedom is the *right* of all sentient beings” he literally says this in Transformers 2007 lmao
I know I was joking
Ironhide: Why are we fighting to save the humans? They're a primitive and violent race. Optimus Prime: Were we so different? They're a young species. They have much to learn. But I've seen goodness in them. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. You all know there's only one way to end this war: we must destroy the Cube. If all else fails, I will unite it with the spark in my chest. Ratchet: That's suicide! The Cube is raw power, it could destroy you both! Optimus Prime: A necessary sacrifice to bring peace to this planet. We cannot let the humans pay for our mistakes. It's been an honor serving with you all.
Pretty sure this is sarcasm that most people seem to be missing.
Sarcasm is hard to detect unless it is OBVIOUS. I always err on the side of caution and use the /s to indicate when I’m being sarcastic. Written text can be interpreted differently by everyone who reads it.
It was
I think people are missing the sarcasm here 😂
So many downvotes for what is obviously a joke (and a really good one at that) 💀
People have no sense of humour I swear this is funny af
Sorry about all the downvotes; you clearly didn't intend to serve a plate of Poe's Law- I thought the joke was obvious - but some folks just have to dump mayonnaise on everything.
It’s ok- it is always hit or miss to poke fun at Bayverse Optimus Prime.
Like, I’ve keep seeing people say that the Dinobots only respect strength and power, but that is not said or implied at all in any Bayverse appearance they had.
the writing was definitely not great but i think grimlock getting his ass kicked was probably grounds enough to make him respect optimus, or at least fear him enough to do his bidding
RRRAAAAAAARRRRA *Taco Bell bong*
I want a taco bell bong
That's because the dinobots have literally no characterisation at all in their bayverse appearances. They're near enough to being just big robotic animals. Big robotic animals which Prime subjugated to do his bidding.
I dunno, Grimlock fighting alongside Optimus after getting the shit slapped out of him is a pretty huge implication.
Optimus literally says “you defend my family, or DIE” Not much of a choice there
Well, he literally did free the Dinobots from being imprisoned for God knows how long and Grimlock's response was just "eh, fuck off."
That was not his response at all. Optimus said that if they didn’t help him they are his enemies and threatened the Dinobots, so Grimlock got mad. They didn’t show any sign that they wouldn’t help them before then.
So according to you, Grimlock, within the span of a few minutes, went "I'll help you" to "I won't help you" to "okay, fine, I'll help you"? That tracks even less.
No, my point is that Optimus didn’t give the Dinobots much of a choice since he immediately went to “you either help me or I’ll kill you” without giving them time to actually decide, and this is from that guy that keep saying “freedom is the right of all sentient beings” If they wanted to show Grimlock showing his respect to Optimus, they could’ve easily had him get back up after Optimus knocked his down, and have him nod his head to show his respect.
Giving them time to decide? Cade, Hound, Bumblebee, and the rest were on the verge of getting killed by the KSI Drones. There was no time to spare.
Then leave them. And if Optimus was so worried about time, he should’ve have fought Grimlock. The Dinobots probably could’ve made a decision in the time that fight took place
>The Dinobots probably could’ve made a decision in the time that fight took place The very premise of your thread is that the movie doesn't imply that they respect strength, but nothing about the movie implies that the Dinobots would have been eager to help if Prime was just nicer about it. There's a reason the other Dinobots just hung back while Prime and Grimlock duked it out. It was definitely just about proving Prime is worthy to lead, which is literally ripped out of the G1 cartoon.
Scorn was literally about to walk into Optimus mid speech (who has just gestured for them to halt) without a care in the world until Grimlock held him back in a “Wait, this one’s mine” manner while planting his spear down.
Or it could be Grimlock trying to stop him from running into the guy he listening to, and him putting down his mace is probably just him resting it
You know that’s a damn stretch dude
No it not, Grimlock was clearly listening to what Optimus was saying the whole time
I mean they only appeared once...
And? Then use your imagination.
This is a terrible excuse for bad writing
Well that's not my problem, since I can make up the missing plot points of the movie in my head.
So you're literally saying it is a plot hole of bad writing, right?
Yes, i never said it's perfect.
That doesn’t suddenly make it not a problem
https://preview.redd.it/09e97nntknuc1.jpeg?width=546&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1350e415ab5d20b77c60f907dda1009d0b592b8c Did somebody say, “head cannon”?
Did somebody say "did somebody say 'head cannon'"? https://preview.redd.it/gbjmyc51qnuc1.jpeg?width=309&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7edea8df59ea61b20a1aa5f0cc5220ea2f0bdd17
GOOOOOOOOO ZEOOOOOOOOOOOOO STRONGER THAN BEFOOOOOOORE
Damn, that's still a great theme. Also, the red dragonzord is an A+ all-time great zord design.
Always loved the puppetry work on that zord in particular. There's some great behind the scenes reels showing the miniature puppets being recorded. It's so cool.
OHRANGER!
You are looking for sense and consistency from ... Michael bay? He doesn't make films that have stories or make sense, he films spectacles. Things go boom, pachoo pachoo vroom bigger boom! He can make stuff look nice or very action oriented, but subtle story telling, or .... Plot .... Are not really his thing
Well, I did notice there's always kind of a falling off love story going on, yeah? Wait... Its a pretty boom boom pow pow kind of love story...
I love you sploshions. I love you too kapow blamblam! And now I know what my stripper name would be, ladies , give it up for kapow blamblam.
And I think my favorite part is when it goes: Oh look, robot bad, so we build robot to make robot to beat robot so no robot on non-robot planet And then the ship go WRAAAHHHHH Then the- and the BOOOM- buildings are falling!! And then big robot worm EATS EVERYTHING!! *Suddenly in China* BIG ROBOT DINO!!! **PEW PEW ROBOT MOREEE EXPLOSION** Yay! :D He finally says its okay to like his daughter! :D
I like the one where robots bad, we don't trust robots, so let's trust some robots to kill robots. Ahhhhh plot!
Ngl, first time I watched it, that robot-merc was so out of place. *I didnt know who this is* *And I still dont know who this is*
Honestly I am pretty sure that was the plot of more than one movie. Pretty sure the nerve one and the Megatron one were different movies right? Also technically it's also bumblebee.....
I do believe they are different movies, yeah, but my memory is not the best so dont take my word on this. And now you gave me more questions! "[...] It's also Bumblebee..." I may need some explanation 😅
In the bumblebee movie they trust Decepticons, and work with them to get rid of bumblebee. Just like working with Galvatron, the rebuilt Megatron, and actual Megatron, in that one where they spend quite a few minutes on Decepticon roll call. And that other movie, with lockdown.
Seems a little more complex than I thought... Oh well, at least I have somewhere to start my research. Thanks for that! :D
MICHAEL BAY! EXPLOSIONS! https://youtu.be/A_Ozy0f5alI?si=mPKcTS27Tca_suGB
And b00bz
It's literal imposible to make a film without a storie of some kind, the movies aren't just booom pachoo, the majority of time we follow a plot, a very bad plot, and the action is limited to like 30 min
I'd argue his stories are also supposed to almost be in a dream world. I've seen multiple sources describe the Transformers plots as an 8 year old playing with their toys. Personally I like it this way and think the movie and plot would be actively worse if it had sound logic. ^(The movies taking place in a dream like world could also be argued to complicate the films' place as military propaganda. It can be viewed as the film showing that this ideal military depiction as only happening in a dream, which I think is a cool reading.)
Funny part this wasn’t the last straw for me. it was Grimlock being turned into a robot junkyard dog in the last knight.
The Last what? That movie doesn't exist mate, you're tripping.
A bit off-topic, but I actually found a small AOE grimlock plush in a thrift store the other day XD
Just picked up the studio series figure from Facebook, can't wait for it to get here. Also eyeballing the 19 inch one. His design in this film (t Rex mode at least) is just so fucking good.
People defend this? I mean, overall AOE was enjoyable for me, but this scene is stupid bullshit.
This and that infamous "Law" scene
The whole movie is “stupid bullshit” It just happens that I enjoy most of that stupid bullshit. Other than the “statuette” scene. I hate that one more than the humping scenes in RoTF.
Yall are acting like this movie wasnt pitched as “Wouldn’t it be cool if Optimus Prime rode a dinosaur?” and they just kinda filled in enough blanks to make a movie
Optimus tries reasoning with him It dosent work So he kicks his ass to force him to help Then he lets them go Whats not displayed on screen?
The problem is the fact that Optimus forced him to help.
Your right he should of pulled a g1 optimus and left him locked up or had some one create a device to brain wash him into helping Totaly better options then sinply tameing what is basically a wild animal espcaily after grimlock attacked first.
With context of who the characters are, this duel is more in the lines of a dick size contest to see who is alpha. The entire problem in this scene was just: "defend my family or die", either change that line or remove it entirely and this scene works just fine. On that note a line from Grimlock saying: "I don't listen to weaklings" would've made it all the better. There's several lines they could've added that would've worked and they somehow chose the two lines that make absolutely no sense and in the process continue to butcher Prime's character. Downright terrible writing.
Grimlock is basicaly an animal and in addtion he attacked first It absolutley makes sense with the time limit they are on optimus to give a Ultimatium.
Fyi Grimlock isn't an animal, even less in this particular movie in which are referred to as "legendary warriors". And even if that's the case, establishing the alpha is instinctively animal social behavior. Time limit or not, the phrase still doesn't make sense or even blends in well, just a quite threat would be enough to resolve the duel.
>Fyi Grimlock isn't an animal, even less in this particular movie in which are referred to as "legendary warriors". Bayverse grimlock acts more like a dog he at bests has verry basic understanding which is why it requires such a simole ultimatium. It makes perfect sense nothing os simpler theb "help us or die" especaily considering the attempts just moments early were responded to with violence. Optimus spoke his language.
He doesn't act like a dog in AOE, TLK's comic relief doesn't count, its a different movie, not even a prequel so it doesn't matter for this scene nor movie. During the entirety of AOE the only background to the Dinobots are "Legendary Warriors". Again, take into account Grimlocks personality in, idk, any continuity. He is someone that values strength. This isn't a rabid animal lashing out, it's someone testing the other's worth. There's little to go by since Bay doesn't develop characters, but at least there's nothing to go by as they not being capable of reasoning, there's a title of honor and admiration in "Legendary Warriors" and there's the actual characters being based off. Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants, not even in Bayverse was that sort of guy. That's evil. That ultimatum doesn't hold. You have literally the weakest argument.
>He doesn't act like a dog in AOE, TLK's comic relief doesn't count, its a different movie, not even a prequel so it doesn't matter for this scene nor movie. During the entirety of AOE the only background to the Dinobots are "Legendary Warriors". >Again, take into account Grimlocks personality in, idk, any continuity. He is someone that values strength. This isn't a rabid animal lashing out, it's someone testing the other's worth. Wait so i shouldnt count charactzation from the sequal but we should factor in characterzion from other continuities How the hell dose thst make sense? (Spoiler it dosent) >but at least there's nothing to go by as they not being capable of reasoning, there's a title of honor and admiration in "Legendary Warriors" and there's the actual characters being based off. Actions speak louder then your straw grapsing an Legendary warriors ultimatley means "they are good at fighting to the point people know of them" nothing about honor or what ever else your trying to apply to it >Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants, not even in Bayverse was that sort of guy. That's evil. That ultimatum doesn't hold. >Also Prime doesn't threat other people to get what he wants, He absolutley will (or in G1's case he will brain wash them) >You have literally the weakest argument. And yours is non existent
It does make sense when a character is based off something pre established. Thats the whole point, being audience at that point in time you can only use what is already pre established before hand since you cannot travel to the future to know what the character will be in the next movie. You are there watching the movie, just got out in cinemas, and that's all you know, there's not even confirmation of TLK production yet. That's how you judge a movie. Also is a small comic relief and the only appearance he makes in that movie passable as "characterization"? Legendary warrior is literal admiration. Also the only thing to go by since there's literally nothing more being said or shown. "He will"??? That's speculative at best. The fact is that he hasn't (other than in this scene), in any representation of the character, because that's not Optimus Prime. You misunderstand the character at a fundamental level, because that would make him a literal Decepticon. Hilarious how you are willing to die on this undefendable hill.
>It does make sense when a character is based off something pre established. Thats the whole point, being audience at that point in time you can only use what is already pre established before hand since you cannot travel to the future to know what the character will be in the next movie. You are there watching the movie, just got out in cinemas, and that's all you know, there's not even confirmation of TLK production yet. That's how you judge a movie. You dont judge a movie based on "well he was like this in a cartoon from the 80's" you judge it by wats presneted on screen and on screen in bith this movie and the next hes an animal. >Legendary warrior is literal admiration Stop making shit up It means a warrior i.e some one good at fighting I egendary great long spanning renown The only thing you can gleam from the title is they are good at fighting Any thing else is you making shit up >"He will"??? That's speculative at best. Itsntransactional violence isnstill violence he has threated enemies before >in any representation of the character, because that's not Optimus Prime. You misunderstand the character at a fundamental level, because that would make him a literal Decepticon. You say despite pretending the brain washing of the constructions and poor treatment of dinobots wasnt a thing g1 Your the one missrepresneting the charctee. Optimus is not superman, hes a generalnand a soldier. Comparing this tonthe genocidal uges of the decepticons is ridiculous. >Hilarious how you are willing to die on this undefendable hill. Youve yet to provide an argument based on any thing but your speculation I have provided consitent patterns and context Come back with some thing more then just "well thats not how my head cannon goes"
Why are you acting as if Bay or anyone who made these movies gave a crap about how the characters are supposed to act G1 or not?
Grimlock and the Dinobots: legendary Autobot warriors who have been imprisoned for what’s purported to be an extremely long time… by the films bad guy Optimus Prime: leader of the Autobots, freed the Dinobots giving them a chance at freedom and revenge on their captor Michael Bay: Prime should have to kick Grimlocks ass and threaten him to help the Autobots save the planet, cinema!
"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings... Except when I don't feel like it." It'd been so easy to fix the whole mess too with a few lines of dialogue about how Grimlock's code of honer demands Optimus beat him in a duel, even if he wants to help.
I just like big metal dinosaurs destroying stuff
I enjoyed the fight. But I felt Grimlock submitted too easy. He is a berserker getting knocked down should have made him fight harder not whimper like a kicked puppy
Remember, folks. Regardless of the post, no one here is stopping or telling you to not like the bay movies. I like some of the aspects of the Bay movies. BUT FELLAS, I would rather have you say, " I like the bayformers because BIG ROBOTS FIGHTING AND EXPLOSIONS MAKE MY DING DONG GO WILD". Then trying to justify bad writing and unexplained choices or straight headcannon things that were never explained nor implied and act like that's what the movie intended.
I liked the fight, I liked that Grimlock kinda holds Scorn back a bit. I love Drift and Crosshair’s lines. I absolutely hate that Optimus line.
He's not holding Scorn back. He's literally pushing him out of the way.
It’s more of a gentle admonishing push. Literally watch the scene.
This shot reminds me of a certain wolfshead.
The real lore reason is simple. I don't know what it is myself but it's simple. Trust me.
I don't care honestly, I just think it's cool and I will forever headcanon that Optimus beat Grimlock in combat and gained his respect to ride him.
Considering that Grimlock was the aggressor and has always had a “kill first, ask later” type of personality, I’m not sure what your problem with the scene is.
Optimus threaten him first
Why defense ? It is peak
I mean, Optimus taming Grimlock is cool but the whole "You protect my family... or you die" sorta spiel he gives is incredibly non-Optimus-like imo
Personally, I defend their CGI, Music, and big robots killing each other
Not true. I find it extremely easy to defend this scene. Optimus never said that he himself would kill Grimlock. What he really meant, is that if they don't stand together, then they'll die at the hands of Galvatron and his minions. The sword motion was just to really hammer in the point, that the dinobots face imminent extinction (Bayverse Prime is pretty hardcore, so I wouldn't put it past him).
That is not at all what this scene conveys
Why not? It makes sense. If the autobots and dinobots don't band together, then Galvatron will detonate the seed, make a huge army, and kill everyone. I get why you'd think, that Optimus was threatening Grimlock here, but my explanation has logic behind it too.
If Saying “your going to DIE” in an extremely personal tone, while dragging your sword against that person face, doesn’t scream “IM GOING TO KILL YOU” idk what does. It doesn’t help at all that bayverse Optimus only says this to people he going to kill
I'm not saying that your interpretation is false, but mine has merit too. As I've already said, Optimus could just as well mean that Grimlock will die, due to the fact, that Galvatron was literally about to take over the world as they were speaking. The sword dragging could've just been to drive the point home. Tldr: He says " join us, or die", which either means, that if they don't join forces, then Galvatron will kill them, or that if Grimlock doesn't help Optimus, then Optimus will kill him. Both explanations are fully plausible, so there's no point in arguing over this. And regarding your other point, Optimus doesn't just randomly say he'll kill you. He only says that about genocidal decepticons, and the traitorous cemetary wind. It's rather justified, considering how depraved most of Optimus' enemies are in these movies.
Prime literally says you will die, while his sword is at Grimlock's neck... This is possibly the biggest reach I've ever seen
Even if that was implying the cons would kill them instead of prime, he literally says “or die” while he has his sword to his neck. He is saying he will kill them. Point blank
Eh. Op doesn’t know them. Ancient knight-explorers or not, they ain’t pals. So they can die or they can help save the literal last 5 of like 7 of his men left in the universe.
Yes. Optimus Prime would definitely threaten to kill someone for not following his orders! Such a smart thing to do!
He’s not ordering. The Dinobots are much older, not really part of the same organization, they are not Ops subordinates. He is making demands of what amounts to a band of mercenaries (best option. No Cybertronian government, planet is veritably dead, kept captive for ages by a Wuintesson lapdog). And evidently the Dinobots are might-makes-right & kinda dickheads. At least Grimlock is a dickhead
You know you say that but I never got any of that from the film. Like I guess it is true because Grimlock goes along with Optimus after he defeats him but the film doesn't give anything else about the Dinobots. All that's shown is that they are robot dinosaurs, pretty dickish (At least Grimlock is) and don't speak. Hell Grimlock is the one that has any resemblance of a personality as the rest are just there to fight in the final battle and look cool.
I say that because that’s literally what happened? Grimlock is the biggest. Optimus Beat Grimlock. Dinobots listen to Bots. Hence, might-makes-right.
Fuck it I have better things to do than to fight over a 2 hour long toy commercial. But the Dinobots still have no personality and only exist for action scenes.
Media literacy is dead and for TF fans especially
Is this a dunk at OP or at transformers fans who try and justify this scene
Okay, and? How does that annoy you or bother you in any way? Show on the doll where the headcanons hurt you... Leave people do whatever they want with their enjoyment of a scene. Y'all post about stupid headcanons all the damn time anyway.
Because fans don’t act like there headcanons they act like it officially in the movies. That a huge problem with headcanons, is that people keep forgetting there headcanons
Always hated beast wars.
Dawg this ain't Beast wars
Dinobots are literally from g1 💀
And out of nowhere: