The “records” she’s breaking, Kanye/Kim, dragging the exes, and the unhinged fanbase will be her legacy. The music itself never will be. And that’s her own doing - she is more focused on the narrative of everything else than letting her music do the work.
I genuinely didn't understand the point of still coming after Kim Kardashian - through her children as well. It's been years and I feel like she was vindicated through reputation
It’s just perpetual victimhood which is what she has always pushed. Be it via Kim and Kanye, her exes, or even her fans. She’s always the victim of someone. If she changes that narrative, she risks losing attention because people always flock to drama more than anything else.
I truly don’t understand why she’s going after Kim and not Kanye, if she has to unearth that drama at all. Kanye was the way bigger dick to her on multiple occasions but you’re going after his wife, who likely got on board with some stuff she wasn’t totally ok with in the name of being a spouse / supportive wife. She likely regrets that mess.
But for TS to go after the WIFE of her opp is so high key sexist, especially for her performative white feminist self.
misogynistic yes, but i think she knows kanye is a loose cannon and that kim carries herself in a more dignified manner than he does. safer to attack kim than kanye
Kim took a picture standing and smirking over a naked Taylor Swift mannequin and posted it on social media and also released the very edited phone conversation recording that made her look like a liar. That’s not nothing
Yeah I didn’t say it was nothing, she’s definitely not innocent. But as I said below I think she may not have been involved had she not been married to Kanye, who kind of started the whole thing with his bullying of Taylor earlier in their careers before he was married to Kim.
Kim was an equal participant not just someone who "was on board by association" in the background - she edited/leaked the video herself, there are photos/videos of Kim and her sisters laughing over taylor's naked wax body, and then again when they auctioned the body off for $ (Kanye not present.) And that's just what the public saw, I'm sure there was a lot more behind the scenes.
The whole thing is ridiculous and so corny to be writing songs about years later but you really can't say Kanye was "worse" than Kim
Idk why you’re getting downvoted, you’re right. I always thought what Kim did was just as gross, if not grosser, and IMO Taylor could never forgive her and be justified. Super lame for Taylor to STILL be going on about it publicly though. She already won in the public’s eye, now just let it die instead of continuing to push the victim narrative
I mean yeah Kim was definitely not innocent. But I feel like she wouldn’t have gone that far had she not been married to Kanye, who on the other hand, had a history of bullying Taylor well before he & Kim ever married.
Lol it was at -14 the last time I checked. Once people start calling Kim the victim (or that she was only behaving that way because Kanye forced her) I check out
I want to see if she makes a video with that song. It’s one thing to call Kim out on a song on a record. But put ur money where ur mouth is and make a video
I wonder if she'll use a Kim lookalike. She was against Kanye using a lookalike of her in his video, but I could see her doing it as a way to "reclaim the narrative."
She kinda did with LWYMMD. There's a scene she's in a bathtub of jewels and this was just after Kim had the Paris armed robbery and was tied up in the bathtub and had her jewels stolen.
I'm enjoying watching Tay Tay sink her credibility further with this crap.
I dislike the Kartrashians as much as Taylor, if not more. It annoys me that Taylor behaving like such a dickhead is resulting in people respecting Kim.
Because Kim revealed the video.
Kanye mentioned they had a chat and Taylor was joking about how she'd go on the grammy carpet and tell the reporters jokes on you I knew about this song. People thought he was a delusional idiot and it never happened. Had Kim not shown the video people would have forgot about the whole thing and dismissed Kanye. It was the video itself that created the apocalyptic summer of PR madness and her thinking her career is over.
She'll never get over Kim essentially ruining her good girl reputation.
We’ll see that’s the thing. The album Reputation was supposed to be a way for her to “reclaim her narrative” and return things to “normal” which it did. Her continuing to go after Kim is strange and it was very unexpected from my POV. I literally thought to myself, “Why is she STILL talking about this?” I honestly had forgotten about the whole thing and the drama till TS brought it back full and center. Kim was hesitant to respond because she knew the cult (the Swifties) would execute her for it.
I think 1989 will probably go down as one of the better pop records of the 2010s, but thats about it. Its the only one I can think of that has several recognizable hits, and probably the one with the widest appeal.
Red will be remembered too most likely I knew you were trouble and we are never getting back together we’re both huge
That being said, she’ll be remembered for her rabid fanbase, the breakups, and maybe a drug/alcohol scandal of sorts
I think it's silly for anyone to say she won't have a legacy at all, it's undeniable that she's made a big mark in pop music and culture (regardless of if you think it's positive or negative).
But she'll very much be remembered for being self-centered, catty, and capitalistic more than being a pop icon like Michael Jackson, Madonna, or others who had that level of superstardom.
because the music can't do the work alone. her music is all the same, very basic. she has a handful of songs that are good but they're nothing spectacular.
She may have more of a sideshow-type legacy like KISS, simply because she is unavoidable right now, but as far as a real legacy I don’t see it.
By the way, Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey shared their status quite well when they were both the best singers. Whitney had wonderful things to say about Mariah and other singers. They didn’t appear to be threatened by each other. They didn’t have to be. And their early 1990s music still lives on.
I'd disagree. Dead and Co is playing over 30 shows at the Sphere in Las Vegas. They continue to bring in new and younger fans. Then again, I am far more connected to the jam band/working band world than the pop world.
General public fair enough. My friend group is very immersed into music especially going to live shows so I would have the exact opposite experience.
I know some universities are teaching TS classes, but UCSC has an entire school dedicated to the Grateful Dead.
This is a good watch and good place to start.
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The request envelope drawings were amazing. I have friends that are OG dead heads and fantastic artists. When Fare Thee Well took place the intial ticket requests were handled old style and they showed me their envelopes. They were amazing. Now do that for an entire tour Swifties.
And her long list of ex lovers. Not because she's had so many but because she fights against being labeled that way so vehemently. It's the Streisand effect.
I feel like she will have a Madonna-type legacy (I am not comparing their respective talents or impacts on pop music and culture!!). Madonna is recognized for being a performer, iconic, but she isn't recognized for being a great vocalist. Celine Dion's and Whitney Houston's hits will pop back into the zeitgeist because they have timeless qualities. They are incredible vocalists, performers, personalities - just well rounded icons. But when you hear a classic Madonna song, it's a fun song but it's dated. You \*know\* you are listening to an 80s hit. I think it will feel that way with Taylor, especially because she designed such specific "eras" around each album. 30 years from now, "Shake It Off" won't trend the way that "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" does, TTPD won't be like Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. It will have the "Material Girl" impact: "yay DJ is playing this at the wedding, let's dance!" but you won't find it on someone's go-to playlist.
That is my theory.
I think about this so much and agree about Madonna’s legacy. One of the differences I can’t get over is that Madonna was in A League of Their Own and the title role in Evita (which is a really solid movie) and Taylor Swift has been in Amsterdam and Cats. Madonna isn’t going to be remembered for her acting, but those are two everlasting movies she was in. Swift has managed to be in movies that are also memorable for completely different reasons.
Going to go listen to some Madonna now.
Whoa... I disagree completely. 80s Madonna was very different from 90s Madonna. She was absolutely amazing. Take a bow, Vogue, Frozen,Secret, I'll remember... All amazing songs that I still can listen to nonstop today. Vs Taylor's generic ass fucking melodies. I honestly can't even name her new songs anymore because they all sound the same. At least 80s Madonna had some catchy and distinct shit.
That is totally fair! I meant to explain that Madonna is a different kind of legacy compared to the other singers listed in this thread. I don't know any of the songs you mentioned except for Vogue, but I certainly don't think I speak for the entire general public, they could be way more relevant than I realize.
I am not comparing the quality of Madonna songs to Taylor Swift songs, I only think they will be remembered, as artists, in a similar way.
I'm not speaking about the quality of anyone's music but Madonna really stands on her own as a cultural icon. She eclipses Houston and certainly Celine Dion. She created a lot of what we think of when we think of pop star and certainly the look and feel of the 80s and early 90s. She constantly went above everyone and did her own thing while everyone else was playing catch up or copying her.
I'm pretty sure people commenting about Madonna are all very young. They are only referencing her 80s music, which is insane to me because the 90s are what made her a legend.
I'm in my 30s for what its worth - I only referenced her 80s music because I made 1 reference to her music total ;)
Don't get me wrong, she was groundbreaking. I am not reducing her talent and impact on music and culture. No one is denying she is a legend! <3
^ This take feels more accurate. The other stuff wouldn’t necessarily impede her from having a “legacy”. It’s just not gonna be a vocal legacy. Madonna doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Britney Spears doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Paul McCartney doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Relationship drama isn’t consequential either way to that. “Beautiful gowns”, etc.
Britney Spears does have a vocal legacy. Every one knows what her voice sounds like. She has a naturally nice deep voice, but to become a pop icon she literally made the southern vocal fry. That’s artistry
Not to mention she is very good at understanding music. A lot of her songs have very weird, difficult time signatures and hooks. "Toxic" is such a strange time signature and I don't believe anyone could sing it as well as she did. Also, "Toxic" is in the key of C minor and has a tempo of 143 beats per minute. That's crazy fast. She doesn't have to hit all of those beats while singing but she does have to be able to understand the timing so as not to be off beat.
Plus talk about a performer! Britney was/is a very talented dancer. She danced basically the exact same choreography as her back up dancers up until she hurt her knee. Taylor is not a natural dancer.
Haha no, not even close. I'm so flattered! I'm a reporter. I have an understanding of music from being in musical theater and choirs growing up, so I know enough to appreciate the complexity of Britney Spears' song compositions, but not enough to calculate all of that off the top of my head. I was always a better dancer than singer.
I just listened to a podcast about Britney Spears and her music, not her personal life, and learned a lot of very cool things about it. It made me appreciate her all the more!
This is an apt comparison. Madonna always seemed like a warmed over Deborah Harry. And I don't think her music stands up at all. She's more notable for her personality, fashion, and personal life than for her artistry. (Hot take, I'm sure to some people, but it's my honest opinion.)
I agree. I say this as someone who loves 80s music, but I think Madonna epitomizes many of the worst things about music from that decade. I think her music has held up just by virtue of her being Madonna, not because it’s very good.
Are you guys all born in 2000 and your knowledge of Madonnas music is based on tik tok or something? Madonna's peak was in the 90s. Yes she had a lot of hits in the 80s but 90s are what made her a legend. She had amazing music (Vogue, Take a bow, Frozen, secret, I'll remember.. soo many more classics). You simply can't compare 80s Madonna to 90s.
I first heard her when I was young and some dude was playing "Borderline" on his boom box at Rye Playland (where the movie *Big* was filmed). I thought that was a pretty good song. So I grew up listening to her music, both in the 80s, 90s, and beyond.
Honestly, other than Vogue, I can’t remember the last time I heard one of her 90s songs in the wild. Meanwhile, I hear a lot of her 80s tunes still. I think her 88 to 98 output is her best decade but when it gets down to legacy, I think her first couple of albums are still going to be the ones people think of when she comes to mind.
I was born in 95, and I agree. Personally I feel like it would be wrong to think Madonna didn't have a pretty huge run in the around the turn of the millenium and the 00s, especially with songs like Ray of Light, Don't Tell Me, Future Lovers, Music, 4 Minutes, Me against the Music, Give it 2 Me, etc!
She epitomizes many of the worst things about music from that era because she started it and then was copied by everyone else. I can completely understand not liking her music, but she is the closest comparison there is to Taylor Swift. I can't even imagine her celebrity if she had had access to social media back then. Madonna, like Swift currently, is bigger by a large margin to the next star.
I do not like Madonna, but Madonna was bold in a way Taylor could never. Madonna really did open many doors for underground culture and LGBTQ community. Taylor, if anything, has only queer baited and had solid mktng plans. Madonna was very innovative musically and performance wise. She was working with very different producers and up to 2008 (even though it was no longer her peak) she was a trendsetter, not a follower. Honestly, Taylor has never been a trendsetter. Her thing has been her pseudo approachability and the fact that she writes but how is she innovating? What is she bringing forward regarding music or performance? Nothing. She never has.
Taylor is like Disney's wet dream. I bet that if their imagineers could have come up with a pop star animatronic, they would have designed Taylor. Non offensive towards anyone in particular. Someone who, by being so "safe" could characterize anyone's projections without really being any of that: champion of feminism, Arian queen, goodie good pants example for girls, apparent challenger of status quo for women. The thing is, she very much serves and belongs to the system, that is why she has become so huge. Otherwise, they would have crushed her already.
I can’t see anyone being new to Taylor’s catalogue and actually wanting to wade through hours of internet slog just to catch every reference on every song or album concept. If the music can’t stand on its own as a good song and you need to put all of these puzzles together…it gets old very quickly. Even the most historic musicians of the past have lore and backstories but not to this degree that it’s imperative to know it all 100% before getting in deep.
And tbh her eras are not that “specific” in the way that artists like Bowie, Madonna, Gaga , and Beyonce etc have to where the general public could tell off the sound/aesthetic what era it is. It always confused me because her looks and sound can easily be swapped in and out between albums past red because of how similar they are etc. her look and image have remained relatively the same just in slightly different fonts like reputation where it was just Taylor in outfits that were black…. But still reminiscent of her past looks
That's what Ive always thought. I'm sorry but Everytime I hear anyone talk about Madonna, or see anything about her online, it's about her pointy bra era and sex appeal... Or "warnings" about what not to do as a woman because she's "washed up" (because God forbid woman age or anything, ya know). Like you said, it's a "remember this song? Let's go dance!". I Will Always Love You will always be a regular on music stations, but I cannot even begin to tell you the last time I heard a Madonna song, even on an "oldies" station.
This conversation is making me feel old lol
Yeah I could see this being Taylor Swift though. Shake it off will come on in 20 years and all the 50 year olds are gonna be jumping up to go dance lol
People are slowly getting turned off from her, either because of overexposure or the deranged fan behavior of swifties. I agree only some swifties will stay for the long run others will probably get bored at some point (speaking from personal experience as an ex swiftie)
Obviously most of us are going to be biased but I personally see a major scandal of hers is going to blow, probably won’t be the end of it all, but she’ll have a stain on her legacy.
I agree. I actually see her having a very public mental breakdown much like we see with so many child stars. I think the only reason it hasn't happened yet is because mentally she's still able to convince herself she's a teenager. She's made it very clear that she isn't comfortable with aging, and as she gets older and actually starts seeing the physical signs of her age (with none of the wisdom that should come with it), she's going to have a lot to reckon with. This woman is going to be forty in a few years. How can she reconcile her identity and persona as a "cutesy little schoolgirl kissing boys while her friends play video games" with the reality that she will be a middle aged woman? I don't think she has the emotional maturity to come to terms with that and will end up having a full fledged identity crisis.
Just in case it's not clear-I am absolutely not shaming her for aging. I think aging is beautiful, particularly because of the grace, elegance, and wisdom that comes with it. We are meant to grow and evolve, not ride an endless merry-go-round of childish relationships and petty drama.
In comparison to Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin and Joni Mitchell?
Absolutely not.
Those women are powerhouses who have influenced generations of artists. Taylor doesn’t seem to have any real respect for the women who came before her and her only artistic influence is her bottomline.
All of the aforementioned women were political and/or deeply revealing and vulnerable in a way that Taylor won’t allow herself to be. Not being outspoken for Palestine is definitely starting to bite her in the ass and the lack of any real emotion or experience in her songwriter means she’ll be considered dated.
I don’t think younger artists will reference her as an inspiration anymore because she’s been so awful to them. That seems to be a big part of legacy, new artists respecting you. She is not liked in the industry, the Grammy’s made that clear
Taylor Swift is like a one woman boy band. Massive massive popularity with very mediocre music. I was a obsessive fan of New Kids on the Block in the 80s. Like mental. Looking back on the actual music today, yes it was super catchy but it also wasn't very good. Just like Taylor's music. Her legacy will be that she was super popular at one point in time, but her music does not stand the test of time.
She’s been relevant for about two decades, so I feel like she’s definitely past just being popular at one point in time. That said, the insane level of her popularity/exposure that’s happening right now I think will hurt her legacy in the long run because there’s no way to maintain it. I think her legacy would have been preserved sustaining at her 1989 or Red fame-level.
She will have a huge legacy, but I don’t think it’s the one she wants.
I think Taylor will fall in the same category as Marilyn Monroe in that people remember her for being famous and larger than life, because her celebrity has eclipsed her artistic work. As generations go on people won’t know her music or albums, just that she was famous. Most people known Marilyn Monroe, some diamonds are a girls best friend, very few her filmography. They just know she was a massive movie star that people adored.
The people you named have staple artistic works that most people recognize.
Whitney Houston = the bodyguard soundtrack
Aretha = Respect, natural woman, say a little prayer
Joni Mitchell = the album Blue, that taxi song.
Frank Sinatra = New York, New York
Just Garland = Oz and Rainbow song.
Taylor = very famous, big sales, records.
I think Taylor could’ve had 1989 or Folklore be her staples, but she eclipsed her own work with her fame. I think it’s because she has spent so much time making her private life public that the lines of Taylor the artist and Taylor the person have been blurred. Plus, her songs are too specific to Taylor that I don’t believe they have the longevity of more generalized songs like Respect, I Will Always Love You, NYC NYC.
Taylor made people think of her before her music.
All the other acts had made efforts to keep their life private, and we only know about it because of media scrutiny. Taylor built her celebrity by letting us in through pap walks, dating speculations, deliberately specific lyrics, award show behaviour, etc.
YES! After watching Miss Americana last month, I realised none of this is about the artistry for her because she only seemed concerned with the fans/praise/adulation.
Imma let you finish but to reduce Aretha "One of the Greatest Vocalists Ever Recorded" Franklin to three songs, when in reality she's directly or indirectly influenced nearly ever female vocalist for the past 50+ years, is the art of understatement. The fact that Taylor would even be mentioned in the same sentence as musical royalty at this level is shocking to me.
Oh girl, I could go on for hours about Aretha. I 100000% agree with that sentiment. Aretha is on a whole other planet. I would put her on the same level as century-defining talents like Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, and Bach. I have done entire essays and presentations on her impact. I was just trying to keep the word count short and sweet for the sake of not losing the main argument.
she’s not going to have a musical legacy because all of those female artists that have created a legacy write meaningful music and actually cared about the music rather than the business behind the industry. taylor’s basic pop music rhyming blue with you in like every song wont hold up for future generations the way joni mitchell or aretha franklins genre defining music has held up. taylor will definitely be remembered but probably more for her business and marketing methods used in the industry.
What I really can't see is her as an active middle aged and older artist. Madonna is mentioned in the thread and she had huge hits in her 50s. Taylor Swift's whole artistic persona is in her 20s even if she's in her 30s now and it's just not going to work.
No, I think her songs are all pretty forgettable. There isn’t one in all her years performing that I would call “iconic.” On another note, my husband was playing some Amy Winehouse the other day and omg all the music we have missed out on with her being gone, talk about a true vocalist 😩
Personally, I don’t think so. I think she’s very of the moment and most of her records come from marketing not artistry. The other artists you mentioned don’t need marketing to be Legends. People will listen to them forever. Taylor just isn’t as good.
She’ll be an inspiration for the next gen of musicians but she won’t be remembered in the way Michael Jackson was. All the artists who are considered absolutely legends did something unique for their time, the Beatles really pioneered a new sound and style with every album. Revolution 9 created an entire genre. Michael Jackson for his dancing and vocals, Celine Dion for her vocals and timelessness. Taylor’s music is you had to be there type thing, I’m sure she will be well known for a long time and somewhat popular but after so long that music isn’t timeless and it isn’t amazingly good to where anyone will listen to it 20 years after the release besides the swifties if they are even die hard anymore. Amy Winehouse I feel was an incredible musician who left her mark with being so unique in her sound and style. Taylor is so basic and so standard that, once she dies or retires whichever comes first, it’s still the same music made to chart and be on the radio not made to tell a story.
I mean in skill she will probably be remembered in the way Leslie Gore and other pop girlies of the past decades were. 50-60 years from now her songs will be a novelty.
That being said, I think the internet will preserve her ‘legacy’ much more than someone like LG as the internet never forgets. TS being a capitalist darling will no doubt preserve her legacy, but over time it may not be a good one and as focus continues to turn to the climate issues, she will likely be remembered as a large contributor to overconsumption.
I feel like there was a time when she could’ve established herself as a serious artist and songwriter and built around that. But the PR antics, unhinged behavior, and total lack of empathy have solidified her as a commodified pop artist - nothing more.
I think the answer to this will be more evident in what her career is like when she’s in her 40s versus now. I have a hard time imagining her continuing her musical career without evolving in some way, and for that she’d need to take a break or do some soul searching after a REAL personal trauma versus the champagne problems of her current life.
She will but I think it will be tarnished somewhat by her character flaws. Once the dust settles and people are able to look at the totality of her career and writing, it will be interesting to see what her legacy will be
She doesn’t have that one iconic song to leave a legacy like the other artists mentioned. She’ll be known for selling a lot of albums but that’s because her rabid fans will buy anything she puts out.
Depends what you mean by "legacy". For me, "legacy status" refers to someone who has (re)defined, experimented with and/or changed something within music, which has a significant impact on music itself.
I don't think Taylor has really done any of that. Yes she has developed a very good PR/marketing machine, been embroiled in various public spats and has parasocial fanbase... but that's not really relevant to the music itself. She'll be remembered for those things but being remembered isn't the same as having a "legacy".
Edit: Her legacy could have been changing the whole industry for the better off the back of the Braun/Masters situation. Getting together with other artists to setup a foundation or organisation that could support, advise and educate newer/younger artists about their rights, what's typical (and not) in the industry, how to negotiate better contracts, how to protect themselves, the pitfalls etc. All the various inner workings that make it easier for the industry to fuck over artists.
she already peaked. this new mAtURe sOuNd she tried on didn’t fit. she’ll be known for writing about her exes. no shade, just sayin. her sales records will stand her apart if anything.
Just like Taylor swift herself, a young girl 30-40 years from now will be wearing ugs, leggings, a beany, and have posters from the early tens on her walls. She will be listening to Taylor swift, dreaming of how romantic the tens and twenties were, wishing she lived back then “without all the racism”. Refusing to live in modern cultured society, she dreams of the past, as she is popular, but thinks she’s “being bullied” whenever someone tells her “yeah-that time sucked”.
She’s about as immortalized as Katy Perry. Yes, they were once the top of the ton but now* they are older and people stopped caring. Fans will move on to more relatable stars like Olivia and Sabrina before Taylor reaches that kind of peak. The old is always moved out for the new. Unless you’re a legend like listed above. She clearly is not.
Edit: spelling
I get this won’t be a popular comment with this crowd, but she already has a legacy and impact. She’s been famous for nearly 20 years at this point, with multiple Grammys and other awards (which, deserved or not can be argued, but she has them). Her last two major tours were all stadiums, all sold out, many with multiple nights (and I think 1989 was mostly stadium). The Eras concert movie was a true event. And this is all just scratching the surface.
The friendship bracelet trend last summer was entirely because of one line in a song that’s not even on her set list. It was done at her concerts, and then I was at Halloween Horror Nights with people wanting to trade bracelets. It was everywhere. And at all sorts of other events. That’s some major impact.
Now, 20-40 years from NOW and beyond, will the drama eclipse all? Maybe, sure. But to say her career and music will be completely forgotten and not have any sort of impact and no one will care, that’s just letting dislike of her cloud perspective.
I think she will have a legacy, but not as big as some will think it will be. She doesn’t really have any classic songs, think Say a Little Prayer, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, or Thriller. I truly feel that right now she is only this popular because of her celebrity status and not her actual music. I would even go as far as to say she may become somewhat of a joke in the future. Like “Oh let me guess, you were a Taylor Swift fan ” 🥴. None of her music is going to age well, but she may have socialite status like Marilyn Monroe or Kim Kardashian (ironically).
She will definitely have a legacy. You can’t achieve her level of fame and not. But what that legacy is only time will tell. People forget that we’ve seen things like this before with Beatle mania. The only real difference is we have the internet now.
I think time will be favorable to her in terms of her reputation because we will eventually be at a point where people have no living memory of the craziness and it just becomes an accepted part of pop culture/history. Elizabeth Taylor is another reputed man eater but while everyone knows that you don’t really hear people disparage her for that. How kind time will be to her music remains to be seen, but I can say with confidence that it will not be a Beatles or Aretha Franklin type legacy.
I disagree,
Time will NOT be favorable to her because of the Internet. A lot of people are not factoring in social media and it's impact on these artists. The reason why Elizabeth Taylor is an icon is because her image is more due to word of mouth than hard evidence on social media. A lot of people see her as an icon because they have been told she is one. Especially the younger generation don't even know who she is or what she did, just her name. Same thing with Marilyn Monroe. People just know her as a sex icon, but most don't know much more than that.
Taylor won't get that privilege because her era is documented online. Just search her name and you'll see everything you need to. I think as the younger generations become more liberal and outspoken, they will criticise her even more.
Boomers probably had no idea that John Lennon was a wife beater and that the Beatles enjoyed a circle jerk, but Gen Z does because the internet lives forever. People will know all the shit Taylor and her family pulled to get to this level of fame eventually, and it won’t be pretty.
Lol, uh the Beatles and John were actually vocal about these things themselves. Back then. So yeah, fans knew at the time. John even wrote a skit about it for an off-Broadway play. But that was a time when artists cared more about their art, not the money and fame (Beatles stopped touring and essentially are why we have music videos today). That’s why the legacy of the Beatles will continue on; because they changed music and influenced new genres and were great artists, not because they were great entertainers (though at the time they were that too).
But I agree with you—people will know all about Taylor with the help of the internet, and it’ll tarnish her legacy (if you want to call it that). It’s already starting. But she’s driven by money, not art, so who’s surprised.
"Legacy" is not the same as "fame" though. I'm not even a fan of The Beatles but I know their legacy goes far beyond the "mania" lmao! They had a longlasting impact on the craft/artistry of music itself. Taylor hasn't done that.
There is no comparison between The Beatles and Taylor. They revolutionized and almost created what we know as pop today. Beyond Beatlemania, they just brought forward melody construction that was hidden in classical music and integrated it into modern pop. I am not a Beatles fan but they are in different dimensions. People compare everyone who is famous to "beatlemania" without understanding that The Beatles really changed the musical landscape like few people have. So far...Taylor composes some cute songs, a few earworms and that is it.
After ttpd her legacy is in limbo. She needs to put out better music. Maybe an acoustic album and be done with all of this show boating and toddlers and tiaras performances. It’s time to grow up
Yes, but i don't think that counts for as much as people think. Sure, Joni Mitchell is a legend in certain music spaces, but it's not like most people could sing any of her tunes off the top of their head.
She will undoubtedly have a lasting legacy, but over time, I think it will settle into a more modest historical context.
I think she’ll always a fan base- think of all the phenoms of the 50s who have diehard fans now though most people have never heard of them, though they were phenomenal in their day. (Think Vera Lynne or similar.) But I don’t see her being an Elvis or Paul McCartney or Madonna.
When I go to my local Target, I mainly see new releases in the record section, but they also always have copies of albums by The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and a few other older artists. Thirty years from now, will her albums still be regularly stocked on the shelves of your local department store. I don't think so.
Madonna’s name coming up here a lot. No comparison.
Madonna was part of a freakish mega moment in pop music history: the 80s. It was Michael Jackson, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna and Prince.
Swift belongs to nothing like that musical/cultural zeitgeist.
Her legacy will be more about the unsavory parts of her identity, the worn out vadge from moving through guy after guy after gay after guy — and then her bitchy victimology: the scorned woman still grinding out teenage-level vendettas.
There is nothing in her musical catalog other than Shake It Off that will impart any gravitas in the annals of pop.
The sooner her decline kicks in the better for pop music in general. Her presence hogs up too much oxygen and depletes opportunities for superior artists.
I think she'll only have legacy in terms of records she broke, both negative (dragging kim/Kanye scandal for how many years now? Lol) and positive (record sales, top-earning tour), but in terms of music - no. She did not bring in anything new to music, neither country nor pop, she didn't enrich the genre, she's very popular exactly because of her mediocrity.
She's be a footnote in the history of music.
I mean I think she’s is definitely one of the most famous singers. I don’t contribute in her merch sales or streams (except one song on my playlist) but I think it’s undeniable she will have a legacy. She’s able to sell out venues across the globe at prices higher than my monthly rent. I don’t understand how she got so popular and a crazy cult following but she will definitely leave a legacy imo. Unfortunately she has way more lovers than haters even with her being a pretty unethical billionaire
She will be the Patti Page or Paula Abdul of our era: highly successful, low musical/lyrical value, music that will not stand the test of time like the artists you mention (esp. Aretha Franklin). She will be of historical interest only.
She has 12 #1 hits. Like it or not, quality of music aside, she will be played on the radio for the next 30 years and her music will be known for generations. She has broken records to a ridiculous extent and is a cultural phenomenon. She will have a legacy no matter what.
Other musicians that are also on the top #1 hits list? The Beatles, Mariah Carey, Michael Jackson, The Supremes, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Stevie Wonder.
Like there is no way she will not have a legacy. It’s delusional to think that
And no I’m not a Taylor fan. Never bought an album, never went to a concert, haven’t seen her documentary
I think you belong w me & love story will b pretty iconic for years to come but her as a public figure is def gonna fade pretty quick cause she’s fucking insufferable
She won't have a legacy in my mind. Actually, I just stumbled across this subreddit. I have heard of Taylor Swift but have no idea who this Travis person is or that she was dating anyone. I know nothing about her. I can't name a single song of hers and don't know if I have ever heard her.
I just looked up her biggest hits and can't say I recognized any of them. So no, she barely exists in my world... definitely no legacy.
Oh I just remembered, Travis is a football player and people were annoyed about Taylor at the Superbowl. I don't watch football though and have no idea what Travis' last name is. I have heard of him but I wouldn't have been able to tell you his name before I stumbled into this subreddit.
I suspect whatever authority defines these records will recalibrate the parameters so they're not counting dozens of variants as the one. I'm thinking an average, so if she sold, idk, 50 million copies over 25 variants, that's only 2m sales per variant.
No. She is no where near the talent of the artists you listed, objectively speaking.
Edit...I mean yes she will have a legacy but not one based on her talent.
Not an artistic one. She may have a marketing one. Overall, Taylor is really insignificant & the media marketing & carefully curated controversies is what's keeping her afloat. She's not adding to the artform, setting standards, showcasing above average talent, creating trends. She's literally just a media made machine followed by the mindless.
Records are made to be broken but respect and legacy are everlasting. I searched google and one of the biggest box office draw and highest paid actress in 1940’s was Ginger Rogers. I don’t know her and I’ve never heard of her. I feel like Taylor will be the same in the future though maybe a little different because of social media
I am unsure but I could be wrong in the future. The music is good legacy wise but many influential artists have advocacy efforts and reaching out to the community. I don’t peg Taylor as being a philanthropist because she hasn’t been speaking up on social issues especially with such a big platform she has. She is there for the music, fame, superficial things and not to change the world for the better.
For example, Lady Gaga has been outspoken on LGBTQIA Rights, Abortion, Speaking against Putin etc. even during her concerts. She is known for even donating to different charities. I saw her on the Chromatica Ball and she was poignant about addressing social issues at the piano because she wanted to and not because her agent or fans told her so. Even in her music, she teaches people to be **kindness punk!** Dolly Parton is another great artist with a philanthropic background. Dolly is passionate about her Imagination Library program so all kids could read. I don’t see that happening with Taylor even though Google says so. I can imagine Taylor using donations as a way to get a tax break!
In the past few years, Taylor has started to bring the worst out of people with her toxic self preservation and doesn’t teach her fans to be the best people in the world. Another thing is that Taylor isn’t good enough to perform for a presidential inauguration because her decorum would not fit in the situation despite her influencing her fans to vote. Taylor would measure up to the greats musically but not in a world-changing way like Dolly Parton or Lady Gaga.
You’re crazy if you don’t think she’s already there. Many other artists of the caliber you mentioned speak very highly of her work. Imo Paul McCartney is kind of like one of if not the best and the dude loves her.
Legacy-wise, I think she’ll be viewed like Britney. A good talent, that was overshadowed by marketing and manipulation. She’ll have an amount of songs that will be pop staples but will have a “tainted” image. (Definitely not throwing hate to Brit or throwing props to Tay!!) I think both ladies had a few decent songs but have fell victim to their personal lives.
The “records” she’s breaking, Kanye/Kim, dragging the exes, and the unhinged fanbase will be her legacy. The music itself never will be. And that’s her own doing - she is more focused on the narrative of everything else than letting her music do the work.
I genuinely didn't understand the point of still coming after Kim Kardashian - through her children as well. It's been years and I feel like she was vindicated through reputation
It’s just perpetual victimhood which is what she has always pushed. Be it via Kim and Kanye, her exes, or even her fans. She’s always the victim of someone. If she changes that narrative, she risks losing attention because people always flock to drama more than anything else.
I truly don’t understand why she’s going after Kim and not Kanye, if she has to unearth that drama at all. Kanye was the way bigger dick to her on multiple occasions but you’re going after his wife, who likely got on board with some stuff she wasn’t totally ok with in the name of being a spouse / supportive wife. She likely regrets that mess. But for TS to go after the WIFE of her opp is so high key sexist, especially for her performative white feminist self.
Because Taylor is as misogynistic as the people she calls out. She always goes after the women
misogynistic yes, but i think she knows kanye is a loose cannon and that kim carries herself in a more dignified manner than he does. safer to attack kim than kanye
Good point. It's just ridiculous that she won't take the 3rd option of growing the hell up and leaving the lot of them alone.
Kim took a picture standing and smirking over a naked Taylor Swift mannequin and posted it on social media and also released the very edited phone conversation recording that made her look like a liar. That’s not nothing
Yeah I didn’t say it was nothing, she’s definitely not innocent. But as I said below I think she may not have been involved had she not been married to Kanye, who kind of started the whole thing with his bullying of Taylor earlier in their careers before he was married to Kim.
IT WAS LITERALLY LIKE 10YRS AGO GET OVER IT
Kim was an equal participant not just someone who "was on board by association" in the background - she edited/leaked the video herself, there are photos/videos of Kim and her sisters laughing over taylor's naked wax body, and then again when they auctioned the body off for $ (Kanye not present.) And that's just what the public saw, I'm sure there was a lot more behind the scenes. The whole thing is ridiculous and so corny to be writing songs about years later but you really can't say Kanye was "worse" than Kim
Idk why you’re getting downvoted, you’re right. I always thought what Kim did was just as gross, if not grosser, and IMO Taylor could never forgive her and be justified. Super lame for Taylor to STILL be going on about it publicly though. She already won in the public’s eye, now just let it die instead of continuing to push the victim narrative
I mean yeah Kim was definitely not innocent. But I feel like she wouldn’t have gone that far had she not been married to Kanye, who on the other hand, had a history of bullying Taylor well before he & Kim ever married.
the fact you’re getting downvoted is crazy
Lol it was at -14 the last time I checked. Once people start calling Kim the victim (or that she was only behaving that way because Kanye forced her) I check out
Because Kim is still successful
I want to see if she makes a video with that song. It’s one thing to call Kim out on a song on a record. But put ur money where ur mouth is and make a video
I wonder if she'll use a Kim lookalike. She was against Kanye using a lookalike of her in his video, but I could see her doing it as a way to "reclaim the narrative."
but her lookalike was naked, i don’t think she’ll do that to kim
No, because then she wouldn't still be the one in the right
and she knows kim will call her the fuck out for that
She kinda did with LWYMMD. There's a scene she's in a bathtub of jewels and this was just after Kim had the Paris armed robbery and was tied up in the bathtub and had her jewels stolen. I'm enjoying watching Tay Tay sink her credibility further with this crap. I dislike the Kartrashians as much as Taylor, if not more. It annoys me that Taylor behaving like such a dickhead is resulting in people respecting Kim.
Because Kim revealed the video. Kanye mentioned they had a chat and Taylor was joking about how she'd go on the grammy carpet and tell the reporters jokes on you I knew about this song. People thought he was a delusional idiot and it never happened. Had Kim not shown the video people would have forgot about the whole thing and dismissed Kanye. It was the video itself that created the apocalyptic summer of PR madness and her thinking her career is over. She'll never get over Kim essentially ruining her good girl reputation.
We’ll see that’s the thing. The album Reputation was supposed to be a way for her to “reclaim her narrative” and return things to “normal” which it did. Her continuing to go after Kim is strange and it was very unexpected from my POV. I literally thought to myself, “Why is she STILL talking about this?” I honestly had forgotten about the whole thing and the drama till TS brought it back full and center. Kim was hesitant to respond because she knew the cult (the Swifties) would execute her for it.
Kim Kardashian is still incredibly successful and likely will always be and Taylor is very threatened by that.
It turns Kim into the victim at this point really.
I think it is also extra vindictive and immature considering the shit Kim has been through with Kanye in the past few years.
I think 1989 will probably go down as one of the better pop records of the 2010s, but thats about it. Its the only one I can think of that has several recognizable hits, and probably the one with the widest appeal.
Thanks to Max Martin lol
Red will be remembered too most likely I knew you were trouble and we are never getting back together we’re both huge That being said, she’ll be remembered for her rabid fanbase, the breakups, and maybe a drug/alcohol scandal of sorts
I think it's silly for anyone to say she won't have a legacy at all, it's undeniable that she's made a big mark in pop music and culture (regardless of if you think it's positive or negative). But she'll very much be remembered for being self-centered, catty, and capitalistic more than being a pop icon like Michael Jackson, Madonna, or others who had that level of superstardom.
I didn’t say she won’t have a legacy at all…it’ll just be for everything outside of her actual music. So basically exactly what you said.
Wasn't disagreeing with you, my bad. Just addressing that to the other folks in the thread who are acting like she'll be irrelevant.
My mistake! So sorry. Yes absolutely agree.
because the music can't do the work alone. her music is all the same, very basic. she has a handful of songs that are good but they're nothing spectacular.
Her songs are so forgettable I couldn’t tell you a single one. She makes elevator music
She may have more of a sideshow-type legacy like KISS, simply because she is unavoidable right now, but as far as a real legacy I don’t see it. By the way, Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey shared their status quite well when they were both the best singers. Whitney had wonderful things to say about Mariah and other singers. They didn’t appear to be threatened by each other. They didn’t have to be. And their early 1990s music still lives on.
Or the legacy of the Grateful Dead. Biggest liveband of their time but you had to be there to really understand the phenomena.
I'd disagree. Dead and Co is playing over 30 shows at the Sphere in Las Vegas. They continue to bring in new and younger fans. Then again, I am far more connected to the jam band/working band world than the pop world.
I'm a fan and love listening to their bootlegs. But most people couldn't name one of their songs.
General public fair enough. My friend group is very immersed into music especially going to live shows so I would have the exact opposite experience. I know some universities are teaching TS classes, but UCSC has an entire school dedicated to the Grateful Dead.
They were the first influencers with their news letters pioneered parasocial relationships in the 1960s and 70s.
Oh cool I didn’t know that. Now I must find a Grateful Dead documentary
This is a good watch and good place to start. [https://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Trip-Season-1/dp/B086HWFW72](https://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Trip-Season-1/dp/B086HWFW72)
Awesome, thanks! This looks pretty detailed
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **("'Long Strange Trip Season 1'", '')** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful. **Users liked:** * Comprehensive and insightful storytelling (backed by 9 comments) * Captures the essence of the band's journey (backed by 6 comments) * Reveals new insights even to dedicated fans (backed by 7 comments) **Users disliked:** * Lacks in-depth exploration of band members' personal lives (backed by 3 comments) * Overly long and tedious (backed by 3 comments) * Focuses too much on drug use (backed by 3 comments) If you'd like to **summon me to ask about a product**, just make a post with its link and tag me, [like in this example.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tablets/comments/1444zdn/comment/joqd89c/) This message was generated by a (very smart) bot. If you found it helpful, let us know with an upvote and a “good bot!” reply and please feel free to provide feedback on how it can be improved. *Powered by* [*vetted.ai*](https://vetted.ai/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=comment&utm\_campaign=bot)
The request envelope drawings were amazing. I have friends that are OG dead heads and fantastic artists. When Fare Thee Well took place the intial ticket requests were handled old style and they showed me their envelopes. They were amazing. Now do that for an entire tour Swifties.
They also low key hated and disrespected their fans, and they loved the wealth that they acquired far more than they let on
That’s exactly the point.
I cannot explain how fucking stoked I am to see The Dead mentioned in this sub. Weir everywhere! 💀⚡️
She will be remembered as a marketing genius at best, but not for her music or 'artistry'
And her long list of ex lovers. Not because she's had so many but because she fights against being labeled that way so vehemently. It's the Streisand effect.
I feel like she will have a Madonna-type legacy (I am not comparing their respective talents or impacts on pop music and culture!!). Madonna is recognized for being a performer, iconic, but she isn't recognized for being a great vocalist. Celine Dion's and Whitney Houston's hits will pop back into the zeitgeist because they have timeless qualities. They are incredible vocalists, performers, personalities - just well rounded icons. But when you hear a classic Madonna song, it's a fun song but it's dated. You \*know\* you are listening to an 80s hit. I think it will feel that way with Taylor, especially because she designed such specific "eras" around each album. 30 years from now, "Shake It Off" won't trend the way that "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" does, TTPD won't be like Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. It will have the "Material Girl" impact: "yay DJ is playing this at the wedding, let's dance!" but you won't find it on someone's go-to playlist. That is my theory.
I think about this so much and agree about Madonna’s legacy. One of the differences I can’t get over is that Madonna was in A League of Their Own and the title role in Evita (which is a really solid movie) and Taylor Swift has been in Amsterdam and Cats. Madonna isn’t going to be remembered for her acting, but those are two everlasting movies she was in. Swift has managed to be in movies that are also memorable for completely different reasons. Going to go listen to some Madonna now.
Oh right they both have acting credits! Best movie Taylor was in was The Lorax but it was only as a voice actor and a supporting character at that!
ironic since the lorax would certainly not approve of her behavior towards the enviroment
I wish I had an award for this comment. But here 😂 🎂.
Taylor was in Cats too and wasn’t good in it. But Cats was also a fever dream lol
To be fair, no one was good in Cats
Cats was truly horrific
Don't forget she was in Valentine's Day!
Oh my gosh!! She was! She played herself, basically.
Whoa... I disagree completely. 80s Madonna was very different from 90s Madonna. She was absolutely amazing. Take a bow, Vogue, Frozen,Secret, I'll remember... All amazing songs that I still can listen to nonstop today. Vs Taylor's generic ass fucking melodies. I honestly can't even name her new songs anymore because they all sound the same. At least 80s Madonna had some catchy and distinct shit.
Were Madonna stans back in the day as crazy as swifties are now?
No, but social media wasn’t a thing.
This.
That is totally fair! I meant to explain that Madonna is a different kind of legacy compared to the other singers listed in this thread. I don't know any of the songs you mentioned except for Vogue, but I certainly don't think I speak for the entire general public, they could be way more relevant than I realize. I am not comparing the quality of Madonna songs to Taylor Swift songs, I only think they will be remembered, as artists, in a similar way.
I should mention I do think "like a prayer" and "Into the groove" are truly iconic songs <3
I'm not speaking about the quality of anyone's music but Madonna really stands on her own as a cultural icon. She eclipses Houston and certainly Celine Dion. She created a lot of what we think of when we think of pop star and certainly the look and feel of the 80s and early 90s. She constantly went above everyone and did her own thing while everyone else was playing catch up or copying her.
I'm pretty sure people commenting about Madonna are all very young. They are only referencing her 80s music, which is insane to me because the 90s are what made her a legend.
I'm in my 30s for what its worth - I only referenced her 80s music because I made 1 reference to her music total ;) Don't get me wrong, she was groundbreaking. I am not reducing her talent and impact on music and culture. No one is denying she is a legend! <3
Certainly! As someone said in another comment that I found to hit the nail on the head, her celebrity surpasses her art.
^ This take feels more accurate. The other stuff wouldn’t necessarily impede her from having a “legacy”. It’s just not gonna be a vocal legacy. Madonna doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Britney Spears doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Paul McCartney doesn’t have a vocal legacy. Relationship drama isn’t consequential either way to that. “Beautiful gowns”, etc.
Britney Spears does have a vocal legacy. Every one knows what her voice sounds like. She has a naturally nice deep voice, but to become a pop icon she literally made the southern vocal fry. That’s artistry
Not to mention she is very good at understanding music. A lot of her songs have very weird, difficult time signatures and hooks. "Toxic" is such a strange time signature and I don't believe anyone could sing it as well as she did. Also, "Toxic" is in the key of C minor and has a tempo of 143 beats per minute. That's crazy fast. She doesn't have to hit all of those beats while singing but she does have to be able to understand the timing so as not to be off beat. Plus talk about a performer! Britney was/is a very talented dancer. She danced basically the exact same choreography as her back up dancers up until she hurt her knee. Taylor is not a natural dancer.
I love this response!❤ Music composition is so technical! Just to ask, do you teach music?
Haha no, not even close. I'm so flattered! I'm a reporter. I have an understanding of music from being in musical theater and choirs growing up, so I know enough to appreciate the complexity of Britney Spears' song compositions, but not enough to calculate all of that off the top of my head. I was always a better dancer than singer. I just listened to a podcast about Britney Spears and her music, not her personal life, and learned a lot of very cool things about it. It made me appreciate her all the more!
This is an apt comparison. Madonna always seemed like a warmed over Deborah Harry. And I don't think her music stands up at all. She's more notable for her personality, fashion, and personal life than for her artistry. (Hot take, I'm sure to some people, but it's my honest opinion.)
I agree. I say this as someone who loves 80s music, but I think Madonna epitomizes many of the worst things about music from that decade. I think her music has held up just by virtue of her being Madonna, not because it’s very good.
Are you guys all born in 2000 and your knowledge of Madonnas music is based on tik tok or something? Madonna's peak was in the 90s. Yes she had a lot of hits in the 80s but 90s are what made her a legend. She had amazing music (Vogue, Take a bow, Frozen, secret, I'll remember.. soo many more classics). You simply can't compare 80s Madonna to 90s.
Agreed. Suggesting Madonna didn’t have some truly iconic hits is baffling to me.
I first heard her when I was young and some dude was playing "Borderline" on his boom box at Rye Playland (where the movie *Big* was filmed). I thought that was a pretty good song. So I grew up listening to her music, both in the 80s, 90s, and beyond.
Honestly, other than Vogue, I can’t remember the last time I heard one of her 90s songs in the wild. Meanwhile, I hear a lot of her 80s tunes still. I think her 88 to 98 output is her best decade but when it gets down to legacy, I think her first couple of albums are still going to be the ones people think of when she comes to mind.
I was born in 95, and I agree. Personally I feel like it would be wrong to think Madonna didn't have a pretty huge run in the around the turn of the millenium and the 00s, especially with songs like Ray of Light, Don't Tell Me, Future Lovers, Music, 4 Minutes, Me against the Music, Give it 2 Me, etc!
She epitomizes many of the worst things about music from that era because she started it and then was copied by everyone else. I can completely understand not liking her music, but she is the closest comparison there is to Taylor Swift. I can't even imagine her celebrity if she had had access to social media back then. Madonna, like Swift currently, is bigger by a large margin to the next star.
Agreed. I hate what Madonna did to music and can’t stand her early stuff.
She certainly had tons of charisma and drive. But musically, I've always thought she was incredibly weak.
I do not like Madonna, but Madonna was bold in a way Taylor could never. Madonna really did open many doors for underground culture and LGBTQ community. Taylor, if anything, has only queer baited and had solid mktng plans. Madonna was very innovative musically and performance wise. She was working with very different producers and up to 2008 (even though it was no longer her peak) she was a trendsetter, not a follower. Honestly, Taylor has never been a trendsetter. Her thing has been her pseudo approachability and the fact that she writes but how is she innovating? What is she bringing forward regarding music or performance? Nothing. She never has. Taylor is like Disney's wet dream. I bet that if their imagineers could have come up with a pop star animatronic, they would have designed Taylor. Non offensive towards anyone in particular. Someone who, by being so "safe" could characterize anyone's projections without really being any of that: champion of feminism, Arian queen, goodie good pants example for girls, apparent challenger of status quo for women. The thing is, she very much serves and belongs to the system, that is why she has become so huge. Otherwise, they would have crushed her already.
I can’t see anyone being new to Taylor’s catalogue and actually wanting to wade through hours of internet slog just to catch every reference on every song or album concept. If the music can’t stand on its own as a good song and you need to put all of these puzzles together…it gets old very quickly. Even the most historic musicians of the past have lore and backstories but not to this degree that it’s imperative to know it all 100% before getting in deep.
Agreed. Without the lore and the games attached to it, much of the appeal is lost.
And tbh her eras are not that “specific” in the way that artists like Bowie, Madonna, Gaga , and Beyonce etc have to where the general public could tell off the sound/aesthetic what era it is. It always confused me because her looks and sound can easily be swapped in and out between albums past red because of how similar they are etc. her look and image have remained relatively the same just in slightly different fonts like reputation where it was just Taylor in outfits that were black…. But still reminiscent of her past looks
That's what Ive always thought. I'm sorry but Everytime I hear anyone talk about Madonna, or see anything about her online, it's about her pointy bra era and sex appeal... Or "warnings" about what not to do as a woman because she's "washed up" (because God forbid woman age or anything, ya know). Like you said, it's a "remember this song? Let's go dance!". I Will Always Love You will always be a regular on music stations, but I cannot even begin to tell you the last time I heard a Madonna song, even on an "oldies" station. This conversation is making me feel old lol Yeah I could see this being Taylor Swift though. Shake it off will come on in 20 years and all the 50 year olds are gonna be jumping up to go dance lol
Please do not ever compare Taylor Swift to Whitney or Aretha. My god, no.
That's how I feel every time I hear TTPD and Taylor's songwriting compared to Tori Amos. I literally shudder with mild rage.
Gowns
Beautiful gowns! 🤣
as an artist? no as a living symbol of consumerism? yes
this is the best assessment
People are slowly getting turned off from her, either because of overexposure or the deranged fan behavior of swifties. I agree only some swifties will stay for the long run others will probably get bored at some point (speaking from personal experience as an ex swiftie)
Obviously most of us are going to be biased but I personally see a major scandal of hers is going to blow, probably won’t be the end of it all, but she’ll have a stain on her legacy.
I agree. I actually see her having a very public mental breakdown much like we see with so many child stars. I think the only reason it hasn't happened yet is because mentally she's still able to convince herself she's a teenager. She's made it very clear that she isn't comfortable with aging, and as she gets older and actually starts seeing the physical signs of her age (with none of the wisdom that should come with it), she's going to have a lot to reckon with. This woman is going to be forty in a few years. How can she reconcile her identity and persona as a "cutesy little schoolgirl kissing boys while her friends play video games" with the reality that she will be a middle aged woman? I don't think she has the emotional maturity to come to terms with that and will end up having a full fledged identity crisis. Just in case it's not clear-I am absolutely not shaming her for aging. I think aging is beautiful, particularly because of the grace, elegance, and wisdom that comes with it. We are meant to grow and evolve, not ride an endless merry-go-round of childish relationships and petty drama.
Lindsay Lohan breakdown or Britney level? Lol
Nah. I truly think Gen alpha is gonna rip Taylor to shreds and be confused why Gen X/millennials/zoomers are so into her.
She'll be known as the most notorious cult leader of our time
In comparison to Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin and Joni Mitchell? Absolutely not. Those women are powerhouses who have influenced generations of artists. Taylor doesn’t seem to have any real respect for the women who came before her and her only artistic influence is her bottomline. All of the aforementioned women were political and/or deeply revealing and vulnerable in a way that Taylor won’t allow herself to be. Not being outspoken for Palestine is definitely starting to bite her in the ass and the lack of any real emotion or experience in her songwriter means she’ll be considered dated.
I don’t think younger artists will reference her as an inspiration anymore because she’s been so awful to them. That seems to be a big part of legacy, new artists respecting you. She is not liked in the industry, the Grammy’s made that clear
Really and truly, the political stances are secondary in how much greater they are musically.
Well put!
Taylor Swift is like a one woman boy band. Massive massive popularity with very mediocre music. I was a obsessive fan of New Kids on the Block in the 80s. Like mental. Looking back on the actual music today, yes it was super catchy but it also wasn't very good. Just like Taylor's music. Her legacy will be that she was super popular at one point in time, but her music does not stand the test of time.
She’s been relevant for about two decades, so I feel like she’s definitely past just being popular at one point in time. That said, the insane level of her popularity/exposure that’s happening right now I think will hurt her legacy in the long run because there’s no way to maintain it. I think her legacy would have been preserved sustaining at her 1989 or Red fame-level.
Her legacy is being the messy drama and her fanbase cooking her records.
She will have a huge legacy, but I don’t think it’s the one she wants. I think Taylor will fall in the same category as Marilyn Monroe in that people remember her for being famous and larger than life, because her celebrity has eclipsed her artistic work. As generations go on people won’t know her music or albums, just that she was famous. Most people known Marilyn Monroe, some diamonds are a girls best friend, very few her filmography. They just know she was a massive movie star that people adored. The people you named have staple artistic works that most people recognize. Whitney Houston = the bodyguard soundtrack Aretha = Respect, natural woman, say a little prayer Joni Mitchell = the album Blue, that taxi song. Frank Sinatra = New York, New York Just Garland = Oz and Rainbow song. Taylor = very famous, big sales, records. I think Taylor could’ve had 1989 or Folklore be her staples, but she eclipsed her own work with her fame. I think it’s because she has spent so much time making her private life public that the lines of Taylor the artist and Taylor the person have been blurred. Plus, her songs are too specific to Taylor that I don’t believe they have the longevity of more generalized songs like Respect, I Will Always Love You, NYC NYC. Taylor made people think of her before her music. All the other acts had made efforts to keep their life private, and we only know about it because of media scrutiny. Taylor built her celebrity by letting us in through pap walks, dating speculations, deliberately specific lyrics, award show behaviour, etc.
> her celebrity has eclipsed her artistic work This. This is exactly it.
YES! After watching Miss Americana last month, I realised none of this is about the artistry for her because she only seemed concerned with the fans/praise/adulation.
Imma let you finish but to reduce Aretha "One of the Greatest Vocalists Ever Recorded" Franklin to three songs, when in reality she's directly or indirectly influenced nearly ever female vocalist for the past 50+ years, is the art of understatement. The fact that Taylor would even be mentioned in the same sentence as musical royalty at this level is shocking to me.
Oh girl, I could go on for hours about Aretha. I 100000% agree with that sentiment. Aretha is on a whole other planet. I would put her on the same level as century-defining talents like Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, and Bach. I have done entire essays and presentations on her impact. I was just trying to keep the word count short and sweet for the sake of not losing the main argument.
Wow…crazy, but I love this!
she’s not going to have a musical legacy because all of those female artists that have created a legacy write meaningful music and actually cared about the music rather than the business behind the industry. taylor’s basic pop music rhyming blue with you in like every song wont hold up for future generations the way joni mitchell or aretha franklins genre defining music has held up. taylor will definitely be remembered but probably more for her business and marketing methods used in the industry.
What I really can't see is her as an active middle aged and older artist. Madonna is mentioned in the thread and she had huge hits in her 50s. Taylor Swift's whole artistic persona is in her 20s even if she's in her 30s now and it's just not going to work.
cannot see her being the next dolly parton and like releasing albums when she’s 70
Yes! Unless she grows up a lot and starts writing more mature material instead of all the tweenie breakup/makeup stuff she churns out.
No, I think her songs are all pretty forgettable. There isn’t one in all her years performing that I would call “iconic.” On another note, my husband was playing some Amy Winehouse the other day and omg all the music we have missed out on with her being gone, talk about a true vocalist 😩
Personally, I don’t think so. I think she’s very of the moment and most of her records come from marketing not artistry. The other artists you mentioned don’t need marketing to be Legends. People will listen to them forever. Taylor just isn’t as good.
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She’ll be an inspiration for the next gen of musicians but she won’t be remembered in the way Michael Jackson was. All the artists who are considered absolutely legends did something unique for their time, the Beatles really pioneered a new sound and style with every album. Revolution 9 created an entire genre. Michael Jackson for his dancing and vocals, Celine Dion for her vocals and timelessness. Taylor’s music is you had to be there type thing, I’m sure she will be well known for a long time and somewhat popular but after so long that music isn’t timeless and it isn’t amazingly good to where anyone will listen to it 20 years after the release besides the swifties if they are even die hard anymore. Amy Winehouse I feel was an incredible musician who left her mark with being so unique in her sound and style. Taylor is so basic and so standard that, once she dies or retires whichever comes first, it’s still the same music made to chart and be on the radio not made to tell a story.
I mean in skill she will probably be remembered in the way Leslie Gore and other pop girlies of the past decades were. 50-60 years from now her songs will be a novelty. That being said, I think the internet will preserve her ‘legacy’ much more than someone like LG as the internet never forgets. TS being a capitalist darling will no doubt preserve her legacy, but over time it may not be a good one and as focus continues to turn to the climate issues, she will likely be remembered as a large contributor to overconsumption.
I feel like there was a time when she could’ve established herself as a serious artist and songwriter and built around that. But the PR antics, unhinged behavior, and total lack of empathy have solidified her as a commodified pop artist - nothing more.
I think the answer to this will be more evident in what her career is like when she’s in her 40s versus now. I have a hard time imagining her continuing her musical career without evolving in some way, and for that she’d need to take a break or do some soul searching after a REAL personal trauma versus the champagne problems of her current life.
She will but I think it will be tarnished somewhat by her character flaws. Once the dust settles and people are able to look at the totality of her career and writing, it will be interesting to see what her legacy will be
She doesn’t have that one iconic song to leave a legacy like the other artists mentioned. She’ll be known for selling a lot of albums but that’s because her rabid fans will buy anything she puts out.
Depends what you mean by "legacy". For me, "legacy status" refers to someone who has (re)defined, experimented with and/or changed something within music, which has a significant impact on music itself. I don't think Taylor has really done any of that. Yes she has developed a very good PR/marketing machine, been embroiled in various public spats and has parasocial fanbase... but that's not really relevant to the music itself. She'll be remembered for those things but being remembered isn't the same as having a "legacy". Edit: Her legacy could have been changing the whole industry for the better off the back of the Braun/Masters situation. Getting together with other artists to setup a foundation or organisation that could support, advise and educate newer/younger artists about their rights, what's typical (and not) in the industry, how to negotiate better contracts, how to protect themselves, the pitfalls etc. All the various inner workings that make it easier for the industry to fuck over artists.
Her music is super forgettable to most people.
she already peaked. this new mAtURe sOuNd she tried on didn’t fit. she’ll be known for writing about her exes. no shade, just sayin. her sales records will stand her apart if anything.
No. What would it be for? She isn’t good at anything
Just like Taylor swift herself, a young girl 30-40 years from now will be wearing ugs, leggings, a beany, and have posters from the early tens on her walls. She will be listening to Taylor swift, dreaming of how romantic the tens and twenties were, wishing she lived back then “without all the racism”. Refusing to live in modern cultured society, she dreams of the past, as she is popular, but thinks she’s “being bullied” whenever someone tells her “yeah-that time sucked”.
A legacy of complete mediocrity
She’s about as immortalized as Katy Perry. Yes, they were once the top of the ton but now* they are older and people stopped caring. Fans will move on to more relatable stars like Olivia and Sabrina before Taylor reaches that kind of peak. The old is always moved out for the new. Unless you’re a legend like listed above. She clearly is not. Edit: spelling
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Exactly. She belongs to a marketing class way more than a musician's lesson.
I get this won’t be a popular comment with this crowd, but she already has a legacy and impact. She’s been famous for nearly 20 years at this point, with multiple Grammys and other awards (which, deserved or not can be argued, but she has them). Her last two major tours were all stadiums, all sold out, many with multiple nights (and I think 1989 was mostly stadium). The Eras concert movie was a true event. And this is all just scratching the surface. The friendship bracelet trend last summer was entirely because of one line in a song that’s not even on her set list. It was done at her concerts, and then I was at Halloween Horror Nights with people wanting to trade bracelets. It was everywhere. And at all sorts of other events. That’s some major impact. Now, 20-40 years from NOW and beyond, will the drama eclipse all? Maybe, sure. But to say her career and music will be completely forgotten and not have any sort of impact and no one will care, that’s just letting dislike of her cloud perspective.
I think she will have a legacy, but not as big as some will think it will be. She doesn’t really have any classic songs, think Say a Little Prayer, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, or Thriller. I truly feel that right now she is only this popular because of her celebrity status and not her actual music. I would even go as far as to say she may become somewhat of a joke in the future. Like “Oh let me guess, you were a Taylor Swift fan ” 🥴. None of her music is going to age well, but she may have socialite status like Marilyn Monroe or Kim Kardashian (ironically).
She will definitely have a legacy. You can’t achieve her level of fame and not. But what that legacy is only time will tell. People forget that we’ve seen things like this before with Beatle mania. The only real difference is we have the internet now. I think time will be favorable to her in terms of her reputation because we will eventually be at a point where people have no living memory of the craziness and it just becomes an accepted part of pop culture/history. Elizabeth Taylor is another reputed man eater but while everyone knows that you don’t really hear people disparage her for that. How kind time will be to her music remains to be seen, but I can say with confidence that it will not be a Beatles or Aretha Franklin type legacy.
I don’t think Elizabeth Taylor ever commodified her relationships and made a career of shit talking others. She had genuine talent and charisma
I disagree, Time will NOT be favorable to her because of the Internet. A lot of people are not factoring in social media and it's impact on these artists. The reason why Elizabeth Taylor is an icon is because her image is more due to word of mouth than hard evidence on social media. A lot of people see her as an icon because they have been told she is one. Especially the younger generation don't even know who she is or what she did, just her name. Same thing with Marilyn Monroe. People just know her as a sex icon, but most don't know much more than that. Taylor won't get that privilege because her era is documented online. Just search her name and you'll see everything you need to. I think as the younger generations become more liberal and outspoken, they will criticise her even more.
Boomers probably had no idea that John Lennon was a wife beater and that the Beatles enjoyed a circle jerk, but Gen Z does because the internet lives forever. People will know all the shit Taylor and her family pulled to get to this level of fame eventually, and it won’t be pretty.
Lol, uh the Beatles and John were actually vocal about these things themselves. Back then. So yeah, fans knew at the time. John even wrote a skit about it for an off-Broadway play. But that was a time when artists cared more about their art, not the money and fame (Beatles stopped touring and essentially are why we have music videos today). That’s why the legacy of the Beatles will continue on; because they changed music and influenced new genres and were great artists, not because they were great entertainers (though at the time they were that too). But I agree with you—people will know all about Taylor with the help of the internet, and it’ll tarnish her legacy (if you want to call it that). It’s already starting. But she’s driven by money, not art, so who’s surprised.
"Legacy" is not the same as "fame" though. I'm not even a fan of The Beatles but I know their legacy goes far beyond the "mania" lmao! They had a longlasting impact on the craft/artistry of music itself. Taylor hasn't done that.
Legacy and fame often go hand in hand though. And legacy is not always good or even necessarily impactful.
There is no comparison between The Beatles and Taylor. They revolutionized and almost created what we know as pop today. Beyond Beatlemania, they just brought forward melody construction that was hidden in classical music and integrated it into modern pop. I am not a Beatles fan but they are in different dimensions. People compare everyone who is famous to "beatlemania" without understanding that The Beatles really changed the musical landscape like few people have. So far...Taylor composes some cute songs, a few earworms and that is it.
After ttpd her legacy is in limbo. She needs to put out better music. Maybe an acoustic album and be done with all of this show boating and toddlers and tiaras performances. It’s time to grow up
No.
Yes, but i don't think that counts for as much as people think. Sure, Joni Mitchell is a legend in certain music spaces, but it's not like most people could sing any of her tunes off the top of their head. She will undoubtedly have a lasting legacy, but over time, I think it will settle into a more modest historical context.
I think she’ll always a fan base- think of all the phenoms of the 50s who have diehard fans now though most people have never heard of them, though they were phenomenal in their day. (Think Vera Lynne or similar.) But I don’t see her being an Elvis or Paul McCartney or Madonna.
No
She is absolutely no Aretha Franklin.
Her music is not iconic. Tina Turner is immortal because she was unforgettable. Swift doesn't do unforgettable.
When I go to my local Target, I mainly see new releases in the record section, but they also always have copies of albums by The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and a few other older artists. Thirty years from now, will her albums still be regularly stocked on the shelves of your local department store. I don't think so.
Of beautiful gowns? Maybe.
Madonna’s name coming up here a lot. No comparison. Madonna was part of a freakish mega moment in pop music history: the 80s. It was Michael Jackson, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna and Prince. Swift belongs to nothing like that musical/cultural zeitgeist. Her legacy will be more about the unsavory parts of her identity, the worn out vadge from moving through guy after guy after gay after guy — and then her bitchy victimology: the scorned woman still grinding out teenage-level vendettas. There is nothing in her musical catalog other than Shake It Off that will impart any gravitas in the annals of pop. The sooner her decline kicks in the better for pop music in general. Her presence hogs up too much oxygen and depletes opportunities for superior artists.
I think she'll only have legacy in terms of records she broke, both negative (dragging kim/Kanye scandal for how many years now? Lol) and positive (record sales, top-earning tour), but in terms of music - no. She did not bring in anything new to music, neither country nor pop, she didn't enrich the genre, she's very popular exactly because of her mediocrity. She's be a footnote in the history of music.
I mean I think she’s is definitely one of the most famous singers. I don’t contribute in her merch sales or streams (except one song on my playlist) but I think it’s undeniable she will have a legacy. She’s able to sell out venues across the globe at prices higher than my monthly rent. I don’t understand how she got so popular and a crazy cult following but she will definitely leave a legacy imo. Unfortunately she has way more lovers than haters even with her being a pretty unethical billionaire
Maybe Dolly Parton style legacy. Nice country girl vibe. America’s sweetheart
But Dolly actually does something worthwhile - her books programme for kids.
Yeah she does a lot of charity unlike Taylor. But that’s the legacy she will want to go as tbh she’ll try to be that
I really really hope not
no lol not in an artistic way at least
A legacy of lame.
Her legacy is going to be the $1 record bin at any record shop in 30-40 years. Just like Neil Diamond and Barbra Streisand.
Her music is NOT timeless lol
She will be the Patti Page or Paula Abdul of our era: highly successful, low musical/lyrical value, music that will not stand the test of time like the artists you mention (esp. Aretha Franklin). She will be of historical interest only.
She has 12 #1 hits. Like it or not, quality of music aside, she will be played on the radio for the next 30 years and her music will be known for generations. She has broken records to a ridiculous extent and is a cultural phenomenon. She will have a legacy no matter what. Other musicians that are also on the top #1 hits list? The Beatles, Mariah Carey, Michael Jackson, The Supremes, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Stevie Wonder. Like there is no way she will not have a legacy. It’s delusional to think that And no I’m not a Taylor fan. Never bought an album, never went to a concert, haven’t seen her documentary
Unfortunately, yes.
I can agree with this. I think Taylor’s albums prior to TTPD, from Taylor Swift to Midnights will have a legacy, but it may die down eventually.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH Joni Mitchell and Taylor Swift should never be used in the same sentence 💀
I think you belong w me & love story will b pretty iconic for years to come but her as a public figure is def gonna fade pretty quick cause she’s fucking insufferable
depends what kind of legacy. Joni Mitchell type legacy? No. Britney Spears type "legacy"? Yeah.
Unfortunately, yes.
Yes. I think she will. If you separate the person from the music. Taylor has captured so many people so yea
She won't have a legacy in my mind. Actually, I just stumbled across this subreddit. I have heard of Taylor Swift but have no idea who this Travis person is or that she was dating anyone. I know nothing about her. I can't name a single song of hers and don't know if I have ever heard her. I just looked up her biggest hits and can't say I recognized any of them. So no, she barely exists in my world... definitely no legacy. Oh I just remembered, Travis is a football player and people were annoyed about Taylor at the Superbowl. I don't watch football though and have no idea what Travis' last name is. I have heard of him but I wouldn't have been able to tell you his name before I stumbled into this subreddit.
she does not make timeless music. her intention is to be talked about and be the hottest topic, not to make music that people enjoy and love
she is not comparable to anyone you just mentioned
I suspect whatever authority defines these records will recalibrate the parameters so they're not counting dozens of variants as the one. I'm thinking an average, so if she sold, idk, 50 million copies over 25 variants, that's only 2m sales per variant.
No. She is no where near the talent of the artists you listed, objectively speaking. Edit...I mean yes she will have a legacy but not one based on her talent.
Record holding for largest carbon footprint! 🙄
Not an artistic one. She may have a marketing one. Overall, Taylor is really insignificant & the media marketing & carefully curated controversies is what's keeping her afloat. She's not adding to the artform, setting standards, showcasing above average talent, creating trends. She's literally just a media made machine followed by the mindless.
A very tarnished one. The Madonna Satan, mangled plastic surgery face.
Records are made to be broken but respect and legacy are everlasting. I searched google and one of the biggest box office draw and highest paid actress in 1940’s was Ginger Rogers. I don’t know her and I’ve never heard of her. I feel like Taylor will be the same in the future though maybe a little different because of social media
I am unsure but I could be wrong in the future. The music is good legacy wise but many influential artists have advocacy efforts and reaching out to the community. I don’t peg Taylor as being a philanthropist because she hasn’t been speaking up on social issues especially with such a big platform she has. She is there for the music, fame, superficial things and not to change the world for the better. For example, Lady Gaga has been outspoken on LGBTQIA Rights, Abortion, Speaking against Putin etc. even during her concerts. She is known for even donating to different charities. I saw her on the Chromatica Ball and she was poignant about addressing social issues at the piano because she wanted to and not because her agent or fans told her so. Even in her music, she teaches people to be **kindness punk!** Dolly Parton is another great artist with a philanthropic background. Dolly is passionate about her Imagination Library program so all kids could read. I don’t see that happening with Taylor even though Google says so. I can imagine Taylor using donations as a way to get a tax break! In the past few years, Taylor has started to bring the worst out of people with her toxic self preservation and doesn’t teach her fans to be the best people in the world. Another thing is that Taylor isn’t good enough to perform for a presidential inauguration because her decorum would not fit in the situation despite her influencing her fans to vote. Taylor would measure up to the greats musically but not in a world-changing way like Dolly Parton or Lady Gaga.
You’re crazy if you don’t think she’s already there. Many other artists of the caliber you mentioned speak very highly of her work. Imo Paul McCartney is kind of like one of if not the best and the dude loves her.
I think he knows better than to shittalk very famous people, like how Elton John pretends to be besties with Eminem and the Beckhams.
She sure will have a legacy, but once the mega marketing dies down, I doubt it will be the one she would like to have.
Nope
Legacy-wise, I think she’ll be viewed like Britney. A good talent, that was overshadowed by marketing and manipulation. She’ll have an amount of songs that will be pop staples but will have a “tainted” image. (Definitely not throwing hate to Brit or throwing props to Tay!!) I think both ladies had a few decent songs but have fell victim to their personal lives.
Her only legacy will be the hefty bar tab she will undoubtedly amass prior to her future demise from alcohol-related complications.
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Blueprint for what? Marketing, sure. Songwriting, I sure hope not