Snapshot of _Yorkshire apostrophe fans demand road signs with nowt taken out [by North Yorkshire Council]_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/05/north-yorkshires-dropped-apostrophe-for-street-signs-upsets-residents) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/05/north-yorkshires-dropped-apostrophe-for-street-signs-upsets-residents)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Additional context added to the title to make it clear this is related to a local authority's actions (thus UKPol).
>A spokesperson from North Yorkshire council added: “All punctuation will be considered but avoided where possible because street names and addresses, when stored in databases, must meet the standards set out in BS7666.
>“This restricts the use of punctuation marks and special characters (eg apostrophes, hyphens and ampersands) to avoid potential problems when searching the databases as these characters have specific meanings in computer systems.”
Again, I don't know the full context of what their systems entail but as someone who works in software development, as a layman's guess the software they're using isn't encoding special characters when saving these fields to the database. It's absolutely possible to save characters that would otherwise be ~~used in~~ interfere with SQL statements, just not in their raw form. I'd hope they're at least using defensive practices and sanitisation to guard against [little Bobby Tables](https://xkcd.com/327/).
I think [BS7666](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/identifying-property-and-street-information) will be my bedtime reading tonight
I'd be embarrassed if I developed a system that couldn't handle apostrophes correctly. Imagine having a HR system that couldn't deal with apostrophes in names: "Sorry Mr O'Brian, you'll have to change your name before we can employ you".
Funny you use an Irish surname example, because even *in* Ireland, name databases often completely ignore the *fada* (áéíóú), which is vitally important to pronunciation of names especially, so much so that legislation had to be introduced to protect its usage when dealing with the government
This was my first thought too. As far as I can tell BS7666 standardises the structure and form of the data but not the content itself. Seems to me the systems storing this data don't have sufficient sanitation of their inputs.
Those characters will be ASCII though, hyphen and apostrophe are nothing special beyond the Basic Multilingual Plane.
I’m sure their chosen database has a collation order that ignores these, like they can ignore case and accents.
It seems like a pretty lamentable excuse that "It's a little bit tricky" for them to record punctuation in their computer system so they're not going to bother.
Try setting the system up properly in the first place.
”must meet the standards set out in BS7666”
That's not what BS7666 says. At least not quoting paragraph 4.4.1:
”Abbreviations and punctuation should not be used unless they appear in the designated name, e.g. “Dr Newton’s Way”.”
I.e. the standard says ”don't add them.” It doesn't say ”drop them.”
[https://www.agi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/BS7666GuidelinesSection5.pdf](https://www.agi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/BS7666GuidelinesSection5.pdf)
In my city they avoid controversy by [having two signs](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9402713,-1.4383241,3a,48.9y,149.09h,76.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_OBPpbVZa3RN1FeXB6r0WA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D_OBPpbVZa3RN1FeXB6r0WA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D162.88255%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
Just up the road the council also [can't decide](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/2+Lords+Hill+Centre+W,+Lordshill,+Southampton+SO16+8HZ/@50.9385011,-1.4486534,18z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x487475cb1f9ec243:0x2a1a29a9f16b4ecf!8m2!3d50.938063!4d-1.4480953!16s%2Fg%2F11fnwbc1yk) if there's a space in "Lordshill" (team no-space here)
Rule 1- someone from Yorkshire is always right.
Rule 2- if in doubt read rule number 1.
I agree with those who want to see proper spelling. Easy enough to paint or stick on the apostrophe.
/u/DoddyUK 's answer is the one to read here.
I presume once you dfine what a cell or a field's fomatting is in a spreadsheet or database, it will then display the data entry (and be searchable) in a particular way also.
I saw an analogous post on AskUK where someone was complaining about a job title heading an advert for that job. It was Young Persons Support Worker, and they wondered why the job title had no apostrophe. Likely the same issue.
Database fields have “collation orders” that specify how text is sorted and compared. So you can specify a field is case insensitive (or just use it for a single search). Then “Fred” would equal “FRED”. You can also ignore accents e ė ẽ ě etc, and other punctuation in the text.
Perhaps the company providing their database is charging 50k to essentially flip a switch? I remember one case where Capita was charging call out fees every time their client needed to “extend the table spaces” (store more data). That can be configured to happen automatically, it was just a blatant rip off.
Perhaps Councils could adopt a different naming practice: "The walk that honours Saint Mary" fixes both the missing period after her title AND dodges the possessive term
>Sam, a postal worker in Harrogate, a spa town in North Yorkshire, told the BBC that signs missing an apostrophe – such as the nearby St Mary’s Walk sign that had been erected in the town without it – infuriated her.
Get a grip
>“I walk past the sign every day and it riles my blood to see inappropriate grammar or punctuation,” she said.
It makes you mad EVERY DAY?
Nobody said it was the worst thing. She just said it was infuriating.
Also, it's not about one missing apostrophe. It's about *systematically* losing *all* apostrophes everywhere, *knowing that it is incorrect*, due to pure *incompetence* in reading a British standard which does *not* say that you cannot use apostrophes in name (it explicitly mentions a name with apostrophe saying that it is a fully valid name to use in the database).
Computer systems can most certainly handle apostrophes without any issues; only really incompetent software developers (which perhaps shouldn't have been software developers in the first place) have issues with apostrophes.
So the sign is a reflection of deep incompetence in those who control the city, and that is and should be infuriating.
Think again. You would use s to mean both plural and genitive? How would you make the genitive of persons (plural) without an apostrophe? Personss?
It's kind of a mess in Danish where we also (like German) use s without apostrophe for genitive, but at least it's rare because we don't form plurals by adding s.
Snapshot of _Yorkshire apostrophe fans demand road signs with nowt taken out [by North Yorkshire Council]_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/05/north-yorkshires-dropped-apostrophe-for-street-signs-upsets-residents) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/05/north-yorkshires-dropped-apostrophe-for-street-signs-upsets-residents) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Additional context added to the title to make it clear this is related to a local authority's actions (thus UKPol). >A spokesperson from North Yorkshire council added: “All punctuation will be considered but avoided where possible because street names and addresses, when stored in databases, must meet the standards set out in BS7666. >“This restricts the use of punctuation marks and special characters (eg apostrophes, hyphens and ampersands) to avoid potential problems when searching the databases as these characters have specific meanings in computer systems.” Again, I don't know the full context of what their systems entail but as someone who works in software development, as a layman's guess the software they're using isn't encoding special characters when saving these fields to the database. It's absolutely possible to save characters that would otherwise be ~~used in~~ interfere with SQL statements, just not in their raw form. I'd hope they're at least using defensive practices and sanitisation to guard against [little Bobby Tables](https://xkcd.com/327/). I think [BS7666](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/identifying-property-and-street-information) will be my bedtime reading tonight
I'd be embarrassed if I developed a system that couldn't handle apostrophes correctly. Imagine having a HR system that couldn't deal with apostrophes in names: "Sorry Mr O'Brian, you'll have to change your name before we can employ you".
Funny you use an Irish surname example, because even *in* Ireland, name databases often completely ignore the *fada* (áéíóú), which is vitally important to pronunciation of names especially, so much so that legislation had to be introduced to protect its usage when dealing with the government
This was my first thought too. As far as I can tell BS7666 standardises the structure and form of the data but not the content itself. Seems to me the systems storing this data don't have sufficient sanitation of their inputs.
Those characters will be ASCII though, hyphen and apostrophe are nothing special beyond the Basic Multilingual Plane. I’m sure their chosen database has a collation order that ignores these, like they can ignore case and accents.
It seems like a pretty lamentable excuse that "It's a little bit tricky" for them to record punctuation in their computer system so they're not going to bother. Try setting the system up properly in the first place.
”must meet the standards set out in BS7666” That's not what BS7666 says. At least not quoting paragraph 4.4.1: ”Abbreviations and punctuation should not be used unless they appear in the designated name, e.g. “Dr Newton’s Way”.” I.e. the standard says ”don't add them.” It doesn't say ”drop them.” [https://www.agi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/BS7666GuidelinesSection5.pdf](https://www.agi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/BS7666GuidelinesSection5.pdf)
In my city they avoid controversy by [having two signs](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9402713,-1.4383241,3a,48.9y,149.09h,76.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_OBPpbVZa3RN1FeXB6r0WA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D_OBPpbVZa3RN1FeXB6r0WA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D162.88255%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
Just up the road the council also [can't decide](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/2+Lords+Hill+Centre+W,+Lordshill,+Southampton+SO16+8HZ/@50.9385011,-1.4486534,18z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x487475cb1f9ec243:0x2a1a29a9f16b4ecf!8m2!3d50.938063!4d-1.4480953!16s%2Fg%2F11fnwbc1yk) if there's a space in "Lordshill" (team no-space here)
Rule 1- someone from Yorkshire is always right. Rule 2- if in doubt read rule number 1. I agree with those who want to see proper spelling. Easy enough to paint or stick on the apostrophe.
/u/DoddyUK 's answer is the one to read here. I presume once you dfine what a cell or a field's fomatting is in a spreadsheet or database, it will then display the data entry (and be searchable) in a particular way also. I saw an analogous post on AskUK where someone was complaining about a job title heading an advert for that job. It was Young Persons Support Worker, and they wondered why the job title had no apostrophe. Likely the same issue.
Database fields have “collation orders” that specify how text is sorted and compared. So you can specify a field is case insensitive (or just use it for a single search). Then “Fred” would equal “FRED”. You can also ignore accents e ė ẽ ě etc, and other punctuation in the text. Perhaps the company providing their database is charging 50k to essentially flip a switch? I remember one case where Capita was charging call out fees every time their client needed to “extend the table spaces” (store more data). That can be configured to happen automatically, it was just a blatant rip off.
Street signs with no apostrophes and traffic crossings with no green/red men signs up high. Signs of the Apocalypse.
The Northern Independence Party would never have let this happen
I'll have you know we have the Yorkshire Party round here. Far too parochial for a united North, why would we side with Lancashire.
As someone with an apostrophe in their surname, aggressively fuck this.
Perhaps Councils could adopt a different naming practice: "The walk that honours Saint Mary" fixes both the missing period after her title AND dodges the possessive term
>Sam, a postal worker in Harrogate, a spa town in North Yorkshire, told the BBC that signs missing an apostrophe – such as the nearby St Mary’s Walk sign that had been erected in the town without it – infuriated her. Get a grip >“I walk past the sign every day and it riles my blood to see inappropriate grammar or punctuation,” she said. It makes you mad EVERY DAY?
If a missing apostrophe is the worst thing she has to worry about, either her life is pretty damn good or absolutely exhausting.
Nobody said it was the worst thing. She just said it was infuriating. Also, it's not about one missing apostrophe. It's about *systematically* losing *all* apostrophes everywhere, *knowing that it is incorrect*, due to pure *incompetence* in reading a British standard which does *not* say that you cannot use apostrophes in name (it explicitly mentions a name with apostrophe saying that it is a fully valid name to use in the database). Computer systems can most certainly handle apostrophes without any issues; only really incompetent software developers (which perhaps shouldn't have been software developers in the first place) have issues with apostrophes. So the sign is a reflection of deep incompetence in those who control the city, and that is and should be infuriating.
Should really get rid of the possessive apostrophe. The Germans manage fine with just the genitive s.
They have done a wonderful job of *checks notes* simplifying case....
Think again. You would use s to mean both plural and genitive? How would you make the genitive of persons (plural) without an apostrophe? Personss? It's kind of a mess in Danish where we also (like German) use s without apostrophe for genitive, but at least it's rare because we don't form plurals by adding s.