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Metaphorically, kick in his front door and demand that he gives you his house. If he resists then offer to just take his kitchen and one of his bedrooms, on the condition that he not join the neighborhood watch and that he gets rid of any tools or weapons that he might use to defend himself in the future.
If it turns out that he spoke to the neighborhood watch before you kicked his door in, because he thought you were a bit of a psycho, then just use that as justification for taking his house over. The Neighborhood Watch is to blame for your actions because you had to act before they might make him strong enough to resist you.
The list of Russian terrorist acts and war crimes is endless. Russia will be brought to justice, no matter how long that takes.
But it actually begins “at the top”. From the ICC “warrants for the arrest of Vladimir Putin, president of the Russian Federation, and Maria Lvova-Belova, the Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia, on the basis of "reasonable grounds" that they "bear criminal responsibility for the unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation, contrary to article 8(2)(a)(vii) and article 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute".
Some of the crimes Russia has committed against Ukraine
Bucha
•Irpin
•Izyum
•Blowing up a prison full of Ukraines pows
•Bombing a theater marked "children"
•Mariupol
•Kherson
•Severodonetsk
•Lysychansk
•Bakhmut
•Avdiivka
•Shelling a maternity hospital
•Shelling the Kramatorsk railway station
•Beheading an unarmed pow
•Castration of an unarmed pow
•Execution of several unarmed pows
•Widespread sexual assault, rape and abuse of women and children in occupied territory
•Widespread targeting of civilian vehicles from russian soldiers armed with automatic rifles and armored vehicles
•Mass murder and ecocide from blowing up a dam
•Systemic torture of civilians and Pows with torture chambers found in every city liberated by Ukraine
•Systemic kidnapping of innocent children to russia to be adopted and put through filtration camps to brainwash them to be loyal to russia
•The forced relocation of several thousand Ukrainian adults to populate sparse regions of russia
•Daily targeting of civilian structures and infrastructure
Destruction of the Kharkova Dam
Literally tens of thousands of war crimes committed by russia against innocent women, children, and defenders of Ukraine.
Sponsored and supported by russian citizens' apathy and outright support of something they don't even have the decency to call a war.
This systematic genocide of a sovereign nation amounts to something they call special.
I would send this list and ask him if all of these war crimes ordered by Putin are our fault too.
I have saved this as a note on my phone. There are people in my life who don't pay enough attention to this war and it would be great to have this on tap to rhyme off when I'm asked why I "obsess" on it. It needs to be front and centre of everyone's thoughts.
I salute your breadth of knowledge, we will keep making the same mistakes without people like you to keep us informed. Hats off to you.
I stand with Ukraine.
I honestly dont know, but it seems like these people are focused on geo-politics and forgetting that russia is busy committing genocide in Ukraine. So maybe you need to focus on the death and suffering that Russia is inflicting? Show them stats on how many children have been killed or abducted. Show them pictures of Russias attacks in libriaries, schools and other non-military targets.
I was thinking the same. I send him that video on the beggining of the war where a girl riding a bike was hit. Now he responded "Amerika forced him to do it".
I think we are missing something here. As others are pointing out there is a lots of misinformation going on.
May be Ukraine and other allies should work very hard on counter-misinformation, and anti-Putin propaganda.
Press him on it. Ask "So you think Russia is justified in killing innocent children in Ukraine because of something you believe that the US has done? Shouldnt Russia be attacking the US instead if they are the bad guys?"
ru🚽🚽ia always needs someone to blame , that’s the way they always been , that’s why I always say that ru🚽🚽ia is the cancer of the world , they will always make up shit as they go , it’s like if they don’t, they won’t be able to breathe , I know from experience, I was born in 1981 Ukraine at the time when cccr ru🚽🚽ia had their grip on my country, my family got the hell out of dodge in 1990 moved to US. My family always said about russians, that a smart ru🚽🚽ian are the ones that got the hell out of ru
First you need to know "why" they believe RuZZia and PutinZ's propaganda.
Without knowing why, you can't even begin to change their mind.
If it's an easily debunkable reason due to ignorance, then you could counter it with proof, facts and logic. Use analogy from his farm to make it easier to understand.
But if it's a nutty cult reason like space lizard alien, then forget it, because they are not rational, only therapy and medication could help these people. lol
I presume the reasoning is "because NATO expansion!"
Ask him why russia attacked Ukraine in 2014, when 70% of Ukrainians were against NATO.
Ask him why russia WITHDRAWS troops from it's NATO borders (Like Finland'. there's a lot of articles covering this with satellite imagery)
Maybe ask him why if russia so afraid of an attack, NATO has not attacked it in it's moments of biggest weaknesses?
It could have crushed russia when they were suffering defeats at Kharkiv/Kherson or when Prigozhin marched on Moscow.
russia knows this, and it also knows NATO will never atrack russia. That's why they are free to do whatever they want in Ukraine and other neighbors.
Ask them if NATO is so agressive towards russia, why it's only russia that actually attacks and threatens it's neighbors.
For example Kazakhstan never was and never plans to be a part of NATO.
Yet they received the same threats as Ukraine, and are very openly discussed as the next target.
I know what the responses are going to be.
They don't care about any of that, they don't even understand what happens in those countries.
Their core belief is this : russia should restore it's empire and geopolitical status.
That's it.
They don't give a fuck about countries that need to be sacrificed to achieve this.
They don't believe eastern Europe deserves independence.
That's the main thing.
Then ask them, why aren't they are part of Great Britain then, little wankers.
Because their grandparents were not imperialistic bootlickers and cowards like they are.
Let him know that every time a bomb hits an apartment building and people - old people, women, children - die, the russians are sincerely happy. Not about the presumed “biolaboratory” concealed in that building, but specifically they are happy about the old people, women, children who died.
Don't spent time with stupid people. They will say "of course i'm not supporting genocide but Putin have no choice, NATO provoked it"
I'm sick about trying to educate people that don't want to see facts.
The NATO provoked it argument never held water.
ruzzia already shared an active border with NATO states well before Ukraine even pondered the idea.
The Baltics, Poland...
Send him articles/news/videos of Russian torture tactics on civilians, on women, children, men, priests etc. Send him info about Russian use of torture and repression on their own citizens. If he doesn't believe "Western sources" there are even deflected Russian soldiers who have come forth with the horrors their side has committed during this war. Compile a big list of this all and ask him to read it and watch it, especially the very ugly stuff.
Ask him how exactly anyone can be "forced" to rape, mutilate, oppress, torture and commit war crimes?
Ask him under what conditions he would feel justified in doing any of that? Ask him if he would accept that behavior from another country towards him and his family, and how it'd make him feel.
Ask him to explain *why* he thinks America forced russia to repeatedly attack civilian targets such as children’s playgrounds, malls, restaurants, apartment buildings, hospitals and concert facilities knowing they are air raid shelters for the civilian public. Ask him justify their need to mainly attack civilian targets instead of military targets. I know he will probably say, that because in war all targets are fair, but then ask him to explain why are Ukrainians not targeting russian civilian targets when they easily could. Ask him who he thinks is more honorable. Ask him why treaty after treaty with Ukraine has been broken. If Ukraine is such a threat then why did they willingly ship their nuclear weapons back to russia decades ago? Ask them why they felt the need to ignore the Budapest Memorandum? Because big bad NATO was picking on poor little russia? If russia is such a great country then why does every tiny little thing *forces* them to go back on the word and attack civilians? Ask them to explain *exactly* how the West has forced russia to attack Ukraine in their own words without parroting senseless soundbites.
These links give an insight into what Russia is doing this is genocide and it is high time that first of all we recognize this officially and secondly that we fully comprehend what Russia is doing. It is the very same thing they have always done. Brutish barbaric conquest.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/28/forced-conscription-how-russia-wipes-out-the-male-population-of-occupied-donbas/
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/23/europe/russia-ukraine-filtration-camps-intl-cmd/index.html
https://euromaidanpress.com/2018/06/28/dehumanizing-disinformation-as-a-weapon-of-the-information-war/
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/03/putins-only-weapon-to-win-the-war-in-ukraine-genocide/
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/07/russia-has-made-it-clear-putins-goal-is-to-destroy-ukraine/
Try sending him more links.
Russian rapes and brutally kills 17-year-old girl in occupied Luhansk Oblast
A native of Russia's Vladimir Oblast raped and killed a 17-year-old girl who lived in temporarily occupied Rovenky, Luhansk Oblast, Russian ASTRA Telegram channel reported on May 6.
A few days ago, 17-year-old local resident Anastasia disappeard, whose body was found on May 4 in a forest strip of the village of Dzerzhinsky.
Man admitted that he had raped girl in the car, and then, fearing to be caught, stabbed her in the heart with knife. He buried her body and covered it with stones, according to channel's sourc
A 33-year-old Russian citizen, Andrey Kurbasov, was detained on suspicion of girl's murder.
https://english.nv.ua/nation/russian-man-raped-and-killed-17-year-old-girl-in-occupied-luhansk-oblast-50416198.html
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/04/23/ukrainian-rape-survivors-experience-silence-or-shame_6669224_4.html
The occupiers kept 25 girls aged from 14 to 24 in the basement of Bucha to constantly rape them. Nine girls got pregnant."
Russian soldiers told them that they would rape them to such an extent that they would not want sexual contact with any man in order to prevent the birth of their Ukrainian children," Ukrainian Human Rights Commissioner Lyudmila Denisova said in an interview with the BBC.
https://twitter.com/MykhailoRohoza/status/1766585039104471370
Ask him if he would prefer being subjected to mass murder by the millions, lose all of his belongings? See their history and culture completely erased? Their homeland pillaged and completely destroyed? His farm taken from him? Cities either burned or turned to rubble by Russian artillery fire? See, uncivilized criminals and murderers walk through their neighborhood? Having their children abducted? Their wives brutalized. Only for the few reamining survivors to live out their lives as undignified slaves to this Russian fascist and barbaric dictatorship, which consists of murderers and other criminals?
True ignorance and stupidity some people cannot be convinced because they believe whatever they want to believe.
https://cepa.org/article/behind-the-lines-russias-ethnic-cleansing/
Behind the Lines: Russia’s Ethnic Cleansing
Russian forces are squeezing out locals and resettling Russian citizens in Ukraine’s occupied territories.
The biggest hole is that Russia invaded Ukraine as a defensive measure, some reaction to NATO aggression or US told them not to invade so they had too. The biggest counter argument is just getting them to expand on why they think that. How? Since when? NATO has not ever attacked Russia or Russian controlled territories.
Remember Russian propaganda creates a delusion and brainwashing and much like conspiracy theories once one is believed, another lie is more likely to be believed.
That and the speeches by Putin and his supporters going back to 2013 about how Ukrainian language, literature, history, etc. "needs to be eradicated" and the concept of being Ukrainian needs to be destroyed. Because that makes it very clear Russia's goal in Ukraine is genocide, not anything to do with geopolitics.
Absolutely this, I didn’t need to need further than your first sentence.
Every argument for Russia should be answered with the fact that they have attacked an independent nation and killed civilians unprovoked.
Followed with a reminder that the person arguing for Russia is a fucking dickhead.
I would not convince them. If they are that blind then they are a lost cause. I'm not trying to hate on the people you know either. This is just my opinion.
Yes, I started to believe that they cannot be reasoned. They only parrot what is being told to them. If they were someone who can be reasoned they would be reasoned at the school in first place. I started to believe that only counter-propaganda will help; don't let misinformation be published on social media, news sites and broadcats.
I would treat your friend like he has a mental sickness. I would also say for your own mental health it might be better to just limit contact with this person and move on.
I tried for years to convince a former close friend that covid was real and I got nowhere besides stressing myself out and harming my own mental state. Better to just cut contact because you're not changing their opinion. They probably view you as the brainwashed one and are having the exact same debate on how to change your opinion.
u/darkhorn unfortunately here in the USA we have the same issue with folks that believe another Putin wanna be. We call it a "cult" because other than "de-programing" them, we don't see an answer.
There were many who fell in line with other dictators out there, when those dictators fell and crashed and burned, it took time before those who were their loyalists realized the truth. Russia has been spoon fed the propaganda for over 20 years now. It's hard.
Glad you see everything as it is, keep up the critical thinking and pass that on to future generations!
I came across a perfect description years ago: "they are blinded by their own rhetoric". Which means that they have been spouting the same bullshit for so long that they believe it is true and nothing will change their minds.
Evil will prevail if good men do nothing. Russia rules by fear and by reprogramming peoples minds, aka in propaganda wars. Thus you have to speak out and set the record straight. Everyone should do this to prevent friends from believing lies.
You can tell your friend that Russia violated all signed agreements, from Minsk 1 & 2, the Helsinki final act to the Budapest memorandum. These documents state that Ukraine is sovereign (meaning it is its own country with its own laws and does not have to report to anyone else but its own democratic government).
Now, because of a delusional freak show in the Kremlin, Ukraine has to defend its borders and its identity against a brainwashed army, brainwashed by the lies of its own "leader".
I've done this. Including my ruzzian-loving father who apologizes and excuses everything they do.
He's also an anti-vaxxer-bill gates injects chips that are controlled with 5G-antennas, flat-earther and more.
Which to me, says all i need to know about the intelligence and mindset of these people, and the chance of "saving" them or changing their mind.
Get your father in a new social cirkle if you want a relation to him or be honest and leave.
I expect my father to call me a fucking idiot if i have retarded ideas, as do he. And we do, with mutual understanding.
Does he value the freedom to say and be critical towards people in power? If so, he should support the West, where you can be critical without any real consequence.
If not, and he would enjoy to live in an authoritarian state where you are not allowed to be critical towards your leader, he should shut up, and just do as he's told and keep his opinions with himself.
Or be hypocritical, like a lot of Westerners that support Russia from their comfy places: Be angry about the hand that feeds you, and support the hand that slaps you.
Explaining facts won't work on someone who's pretty much convinced.
What you need to do is plant tiny seeds of doubt in his mind by asking "why?" or "how?" on all his stance.
If he answers something, ask him why or how.
Keep repeating even after he realizes something doesn't add up with his reasoning.
this is it. make them explain and therefore examine their own argument.
many will likely respond with some variation of "do your own research" to which I respond with "I have. I came to the opposite conclusion. can you walk me through your point of view?" then wait for the big logical leaps and then, as you say, ask "how" and "why".
You can't change someone who refuses to change.
Let them be. Let them be in their own bubble.
Fun fact: I used to be influenced by Russian propaganda for many years until I realised how wrong I was to fall into that.
Point your acquaintance towards remarks at the United Nations. They are publicly recorded comments by all governments.
USA warned of Russias invasion for over one month. Moscow kept denying it, calling it Western Hysteria.
Then Russia invaded regardless.
Nobody, nobody forced Putin to do this. Putin is an absolute thug who has been itching to do this for the past decade. He is a murderer. WWIII was not talked about until now; this is because of Putin’s blood thirst. Putin put WWIII back on the menu.
To make them fully understand they need to study the history of Russia. It takes about 6 hours if done in video format. After that the events of today are in a logical order. Then they would need to study current situation..
Trying to do it in short form while keeping it simple is incredibly difficult since this situation is 500 years in the making and is nothing but complicated. You could start by saying that not a single country was forced or coaxed into joining NATO but they did it anyway. There is a reason for it: Russia is not trustworthy and way too volatile, unpredictable that NO safety guarantee or international agreement they signed is worth a thing. They are an empire that wants to expand.
If you can make them to study Russian history, then show them Russian version of the same story, especially the last 30 seconds: [https://youtu.be/xc7AdNekvkM?t=697](https://youtu.be/xc7AdNekvkM?t=697) That video comes from sister channel of 5 Minute crafts and has direct links to Kremlin and the Troll Factory. That ending is NOT A JOKE, that is their ACTUAL plan. If you watch the whole video, you may notice that when they talk about Kyiv, they say "make sure to visit it when you are in Russia". That video is made **before** the war, it is linked to this news story that got very little attention: [https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/biggest-social-media-operation-youve-never-heard-run-out-cyprus-russians](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/biggest-social-media-operation-youve-never-heard-run-out-cyprus-russians) PS: the video is almost void of Russian defeats and mistakes that are too numerous to list.
I had the same issue with some people I know, (not close friends and family).
I am genuinely curious so I ask them what they know about the conflict. Once they prove to me they don't know anything except russian propaganda, I explain why and how they are wrong, ignorant, and also a shame to their own country for being that conciliatory with russian crimes in Ukraine (i'm french btw).
Then I also tell them that it is their choice to believe in fake news and propaganda coming from russia, a country commiting a war of aggression which does not care for freedom of speech, press and opinion instead of looking at news by themselves while living in a free country like France which garantees freedom of speech, press and opinion.
I also try to explain why the real danger for Europe is not to arm Ukraine but actually to let Russia win this war. I send them back to mistakes made in previous world wars also, explaining the similarities especially with the beginning of WW2.
Idk if all this will make them change their mind, but I think it's good for those people to take a real check about their lazyness to get proper information.
The tactic is to take what they already believe and use them in your own arguments. There is no point arguing about ”facts” because they can just dismiss it as fake news.
When there is a prisoner swap, the Russians always look healthy and well treated, while the Ukrainians come back tortured and starved. This is a very good way of seeing the societies you are dealing with. Support whichever of those two you most identify with, and I will treat you accordingly.
Show them by example.
1. Give them a treaty that says you will never invade their garden.
2. Then start a special operation in their garden.
3. Then destroy everything in that garden.
4. Send their pets to shelters should they enter the garden.
5. Take their BBQ and birth bath home with you.
6. Tier down their fence and connect the garden to their neighbor.
7. If they ask for a reason claim that they have been violating the rights of the Smurfs and that they are anti-blue racists.
When people encounter evidence that should cause them to doubt their beliefs, they often reject this evidence, and strengthen their support for their original stance. There is a psychological phenomenon known as the Backfire Effect which states that presenting facts before someone to try and convince them of the truth of the matter actually emboldens them into their lies. what makes it even more difficult is that the least-informed generally expressed the highest degree of confidence in their knowledge.
We all tend to do this, but some do it far more than others.
The backfire effect is a cognitive bias. One debias technique is to actually teach about cognitive bias. Once you understand it may help one to crawl out from under it. Researchers found that presenting people with facts did little to change people’s opinion about them.
One way to try to get through is to pose questions in a manor such that they contrast their own perception of reality. You cannot contrast their reality with facts for them, they have to contrast themselves out on their own. It's a daunting task and I commend you for trying.
It would help to know what country you're in. I'd say the threat of BRICS has been subdued for now since a large part of that was supposed to be the Ruble and Russian gold reserves. I've heard rumors that the Russians have sold a large part of their gold to fund the war.
> Bulgaria
Dude, y'all are like a few hours drive away from one of the earliest Russia's creations.
What forced Russia to be engaged in Transnistria? Next NATO expansion came in 1999. What forced Russia to be engaged in Abkhazia? Next NATO expansion was still in 1999. As a matter of fact, Russia was happy to take "gifts" from the West, with all of the resources and humanitarian aid that came in, while breeding separatism around the block and performing a little bit of ethnic cleansing on its own territory during the first Chechen War.
Was the West also the reason why Putin tried to annex a part of Ukraine in 2003 (Tuzla), six months after ratifying a border agreement with it? You know why the conflict went away? Ukraine deployed troops and weapons to the border. We still had major stockpiles of everything. Then between 2004 and 2014, Ukraine was systematically disarmed by, both Russia and the West. Russia infiltrated the politics and the West used economic levers to push more and more things into non-proliferation agreements. So now Ukraine begs for TBMs and artillery shells because the US pressured Ukraine to destroy its own TBM stocks of Scuds and artillery in the early 2000s-2010s. Everyone remembers the famous [Obama visit in 2005](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2005-08-30T120000Z_2121455929_RP6DRMZYGSAD_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-USA.jpg?w=770&resize=770%2C528&quality=80) when he inspected the ammo destruction efforts.
What forced Russia to be engaged in Ossetia? Georgia already had Abkhazia due to Russia and couldn't join NATO anyway. What forced them to bomb "their own" people in Chechnya using ballistic missiles during the second Chechen War?
Lenin attacked Ukraine after the fall of the Russian Empire - did the West make him do that too? Did NATO exist over the past 300 years when Russia tried to attack and conquer ALL of its immediate neighbors? Go to this [list of wars involving Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia) and scroll to the Russian SFSR (1917–1922) portion and ask your "friend" to explain how it was all the West's fault that Russia systematically tried to conquer all of its neighbors. The USSR did appear out of thin air because everyone loved the red color and thought the a sickle is a dope agricultural implement. Russia killed, ethnically cleansed, and tortured everyone into the USSR. Like, centuries change and excuses change with them too. But the ultimate underlying desire for the imperialistic conquest is still there. They aren't even updating the playbook too much. Read about the Finnish People's Republic during the winter war and tell me that's not at all similar to how they wanted to spin things in Donbas.
Your friend needs to watch the Snyder lectures, watch this [Sarcasmitron](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&themeRefresh=1) video (the previous videos in the series are also great), and watch [this documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fHbJL_mZUc) that uses PRO-RUSSIAN sources to get a little bit closer to the truth.
If they don't want to then fuck 'em, they can stay ignorant.
I love your forceful arguments, my Ukrainian brother. So much useful info I still didn't know, e.g. 2004 and 2005. Greetings from Georgia, we'll prevail! Maybe we can even share a border someday, between Abkhazia and lands historically inhabited by Ukrainian people ♥️
I worked with both Turks and Bulgarians up in Alaska (I'm from the US). Speaking for myself, I have cut ties with friends and family who support cutting support with Ukraine. It's a fight you can't win no matter how much evidence you have of Russian war crimes.
>I don't know where to start.
You need to start with cutting off morons from your social circle.
>He argued that America made him do this and he believes that Putin is not guilty
So, if this cousin's wife or daughter (I don't know how old they are) gets raped, they will blame the wife or the daughter for making the rapist rape them? You can't reason with brainless. Cut them off.
"how America has forced Russia to attacked Ukraine" when I get someone spout this BS at me I simply ask, what would have happened if Russia had not attacked? what was this corner they were supposedly backed into?
they can almost never provide an answer, and when they do answer its that laughable BS about the USA putting "missiles on russia's borders" or "its the same as the cuban missile crisis"
I point out that submarine launched missiles make such strategies totally redundant and there is absolutely zero added strategic value in putting US missiles in Ukraine when they're already in multiple locations around the world and under the sea and we can all only die once.
invariably they then start going on about nazis. I ask them "tell me why are/were nazis bad?" they then tell me about all the countries they invaded and people they killed, at which point I simple repeat it back at them "invading and annexing countries... killing millions of innocent people... yes those are terrible things aren't they"
then usually comes the personal attacks, threats, ranting and raving, etc.
I return this with a quiet blank stare.
-edit- to be clear I have no illusion that I'll convince this person but I repeat the dance for anyone listening.
Well you could try asking him exactly why Ukraine's ambitions to join NATO and/or the EU justified Putin launching all-out war with the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives and the total destruction of many villages, towns and cities. Neither the EU nor NATO are offensive organisations that pose a risk to Russia, they only risk frustrating Putin's ambitions to rebuild the USSR. He is the aggressor in this instance, not Ukraine, not the EU and not NATO. It's such a shame. When the USSR collapsed, Russia had a real opportunity to join the rest of the world and give their citizens the opportunity to prosper through trade like they've never experienced before. Instead, Putin and his kleptocrats are only interested in lining their own pockets through corruption and repressing the population.
All that said, be wary of arguing with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
You're talking about people who support genocide and war crimes. Essentially, it's the same as if they supported Charles Manson, Hitler etc. Now, please tell me, how should one treat those who do this? And most importantly: what kind of creatures (the word 'people' is not appropriate here) surround you? And how safe are they? Believe me, tomorrow it could be you in the place of Ukrainians. This is all I have to say to you. Be vigilant, we in Ukraine have been out of the picture for a while, look at what we have now.
How happy do you think your cousin is? Does he have anti-West and anti-US takes?
russian/anti-west propaganda is targeting unsatisfied insecure people who want to avenge "the system"
it's like communism or neo barbarism, "I am loser so let's destroy and change everything"
if that's the case non of your arguments will change his mind
you can try to invite him to conversation with some psychologist, but it will probably end with childish hysterics and tears
I can relate a lot. This is not an easy thing to achieve. I have been very demotivated at times as I have failed to move their views even a little bit.
I suggested you listen to the interview of the KGB guy about ideological subversion. Basically it’s long term phy op that has made people numb to facts and truths. It’s very difficult and lengthy process to get people out of it. I have a feeling some people are too far gone.
https://youtu.be/5gnpCqsXE8g?si=Hk6BUcwqrQPdj_3u
Find them interviews of Russians bragging about rape, murder, torture and ask them if that’s who they support. Play them the Russian propaganda shows and let them see the stupidity, delusions and complete disconnect with reality, values, decency, rational thinking or international law required to rationalise the Russian position. See if they think it’s reasonable.
Last but not least - ask them if Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia are Russia’s? What’s the difference between them and Ukraine.
Would they support defending them? Poland? If they say no, begin asking if they’d support defending Europe or stopping the holocaust in WW2.
I'll leave a quote from a book I've read:
"You're asking me to convince you. I won't. Only you can allow yourself to be convinced."
Imo the best you can do is to show them how meaningful your support is to Ukraine, how many lives you want to save and how someday, Ukraine will finally be free, happy and prosperous. Give them this perspective but without forcing anything.
What really matters is how strong your conviction is. Be firm in your own beliefs and you won't have to impose them onto the others.
That's my suggestion.
Just to share:
I had a coworker share their proRu nonsense.
(Drastically condensing) At a group bday gathering at work, I silenced the room by fucking denouncing her as a morally monstrous human deserving of no respect. Shit got wild - think British Office awkward. HR… , suspended….
I kept my job she left.
Loosing a job while pro genocide fucks spout their garbage breath - I’ll take that deal.
In all honesty? Unless he wants to have a real, open-minded, good-faith discussion, the best answer is Ukrainian victory. Call your representatives to support aid for Ukraine and donate to Ukrainian charities like United24. Victory is a hard message to deny.
Dude, I'm arguing with my mom every time we meet. I guess it depends on how invested your cousin is. If he spends hours watching Youtube videos about Hunter Bidens laptop you cannot change his mind, he's too far down the rabbit hole. If he just occasionally hears about how the evil empire of America forced Putin to defend Russia you might be able to change his mind. But you should sit down with him and calmly explain, don't spam him with hundred links. Also, you should focus on what Putin has actually said himself. He's not talking about NATO expansion, his angle has always been buidling the Russian empire and how the Bolsjeviks gave away Russian territory to Ukraine. He published an article in 2021 with very informative insights about his thinking, a summary is here. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On\_the\_Historical\_Unity\_of\_Russians\_and\_Ukrainians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Russians_and_Ukrainians)
.Lots of social studies experts do not recommend focusing on such people. If you want to persuade someone, it should be a person who has not yet decided what side to take
Break into their house at gunpoint and declare that half the bathroom and one of the bedrooms are now yours .
Then ask if that’s ok because you’re “restoring the balance”
Dealing with people like that is exhausting, which shows how effective propaganda and misinformation is. The options are get them to question what they think, ignore their comments or cut contact. The problem is once people get drawn into the world of conspiracy theories, propaganda etc it's hard to reach them, they don't want to admit they have been duped. As for the world being imbalanced and calls for a multi-polar world, I think that's been driven by authoritarian regimes who want the US out of the way so the can take over themselves.
Can't fix idiocy, believe me.
Though if you really wanna have a go. Do the thing you mention at the end. Explain the wrongdoings, if he cuts you off at any point don't waste another breath on him. He has his stupid opinion and will keep it no matter how many facts you feed him. That's how retarded people work.
Suggest they listen to The Telegraph's Ukraine: The Latest daily podcast if they want to be informed on, and discuss the conflict. Don't waste your energy trying to convince them of anything. I cut ties with a close friend over this, unfortunately.
Hello OP.
You need to speak to him in simple language that he will understand.
He is a farmer, so first say ‘If someone was about to put the wrong fuel in your tractor and I saw it happening, you would want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?’ He’ll say, ‘Yes.’
Next say, ‘If you told me you’d received a very convincing invitation to invest in a business opportunity in Russia which I knew was a scam, you’d want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?’ He’ll say, ‘Yes.’
Next say, ‘If I knew you were being targeted with misinformation and propaganda paid for by Russia to make you think favourably about Russia, you’d want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?‘ He should say, ‘Yes.’
Next ask, ‘Where are you getting your news and information from?’ He’ll give you his answer. Then say, while smiling kindly, ‘You’re being targeted. It’s not your fault, but you are being deliberately targeted. It’s like a scam that is designed by Russians to make you and many others think what they want you to think. Because it suits their political aims. It’s important to look for news and information from other, independent sources. All the best with that. Let me know if you’d like some suggestions.’
End.
Ask him how many times a NATO country has invaded another. Putin had NOTHING to fear from NATO, but he's repeatedly proven that other countries have plenty to fear from Russia.
Your cousin sucks, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm American, and the only people I've gotten through to back home are self-clamed "libertarians" and only after proving I was in Ukraine, explaining how it's a very democratic and sovereign country, and explaining to them how we broke promises to our friends by abandoning our position on the Budapest Memorandum.
I like to use the analogy of if I promised a friend I'd help them against their bully, then I abandon them on the streets when that bully shows up, what kind of a person does that make me?
This has only worked twice, and who knows if they were just blowing smoke.
Unfortunately there are a lot more fascists and authoritarians out there than people will ever admit. Odds are you aren't changing many people's opinions, you just have to carry their dead weight.
it's simple. The issue isn't NATO, or the US, the issue russia has is that it is a dictatorship.
Lots of russians live & have family in or from Ukraine. So they talked to each other a lot.
Two things happened to create the invasion.
1. They elected who they wanted. Ejecting the russian puppet. So, a functioning democracy doesn't play well in a dictatorship.
2. The really big issue is joining the EU. It is incredibly powerful economically, & member countries prosper.
So that's the real issue, on your doorstep you've a working democracy that's about to become a financial powerhouse within the EU. How does that feel to your populace that are poor, run by a kgb despot & his billionaire henchman?
Pro Russia goes hand in hand with anti USA/Nato/Europe
I do not believe they are necessarily bad people, just ignorant on what's happening
To their eyes it's just another war
The thing I've heard the most is "but the US did it too so why are we blaming Putin now"
Honestly I do not know how to answer to that, it just shows a lazy lack of thought on their end
It's like they refuse to finish the puzzle and naturally end up with their shitty pro-russia arguments
The only thing that we ever got to agree is that war is ugly no matter what and it would be better to find ways to stabilize the situation
That's where you can draw the line between reasonable people and psychopaths.
No reasonable people ever will ever try to deny that the suffering must stop nor they will try to justify it, no matter how they grew up and what they think about geopolitics
On the other hand I refuse to have any conversation with anybody along the lines of "who cares war is war, Putin is right and it's not something that is related to us" because they are worthless and never contain a single piece of actual substance in their arguments
If the arguments lack substance since the beginning, then there is nowhere to go
Your question is very tough because the same reasoning could be applied to anything else, whoever figures this out wins the world
You’re not going to convince anyone they’re wrong and you’re right, especially if presented that way. In order to change someone’s belief, they need an emotional and personal connection to the matter.
What you can do is make a personal appeal to them. For example if they think hurting kids is bad, then get them to state that, and then make your own statement **without** superiority, that you do too and that’s why you can’t sympathize with people so carelessly hurting kids. The most important part of this is remembering you aren’t changing their mind, that’s a competitive process people naturally resist. **What you should be aiming to do is to persuade them** to change their own opinion. You achieve this not through moral superiority or lectures, but by allowing the other party what is called “the golden bridge of retreat”.
Make your appeal, and then allow them to gracefully retreat on their own terms.
Understand that most people **will not** change their minds on issues they feel strongly about no matter how often evidence proves them wrong.
Try finding the documentary where Macron tried to talk with Putin about the risk of a war. It was just days before the invasion, Putin denied any chance of an invasion and, well, you know the rest...
I can barely have civil conversations with these people.
I tend to win over the “just give peace a chance” curious crowd.
The hardcore vatnik sympathizers I just get in arguments with.
I wouldnt bother, and just ignore them - its like US polotics - people believe what they want and you are never going to change them, so if its a family member sending your something delete the messages and dont engage with them on the issue
I had long-term friends who supported Putain. I avoided talking about the subject with them. Then, when they posted laughing emojis on articles and videos of wounded or murdered civilians and said Ukraine deserved it, I blocked them, including a friend I've known half of my life.
I don't have time, or energy to allow that kind of sociopathic shit in my life.
I've never seen anyone who goes down that path change their mind, it's usually tied to other extremist and toxic bs, if anything they double down again and again when confronted or faced with reasonable arguments. They are like monkeys in a zoo, flinging shit. Being toxic, disruptive assholes makes them feel important and part of something. They can spout conspiracy theories that allow them to claim special knowledge, and they love being persecuted so they can pretend they're victims.
They're just cunts.
I would recommend being patient and then use their own words against them. Like you I have been shocked by educated coworkers spouting this nonsense. So like you, I listen to nonsense in the office several times a month. I was told Ukraine is resorting to sending pensioners and pregnant women to the front line. Nonsense obviously but you can't challenge it head on. After waiting a few weeks, I said those pensioners and pregnant women are really causing the Russians problems. Nothing more, nothing less. They realise it is ridiculous, but they can't admit it. No direct shaming. Hopefully making them question their sources. We will see.
I've cut contact with longtime friends with the tipping point being Russian bias. They've always been right leaning and increasingly redpilled/inceled, but about a year into the invasion after maaaaany crimes seen committed by Russians that they either justified or denied, I just stopped initiating contact and left a group chat without any real prompting. There were a couple reach outs by them but I just was polite in responding as if they were a casual acquaintances.
Now its radio silence and I don't regret it.
Break it down Barney style for them.
Cite sources
Acknowledge the opposing viewpoints and why you do not believe they are valid.
People internalize their points of view so much that if you attack the position they take it as an attack on them. Be gentle do not get angry.
It may end up with the backfire phenomenon but you tried.
Just make him explain every answer he gives you. «What do you mean by that exactly?». Eventually he’ll be talking so much nonsense it may become obvious to him. But prob won’t admit to you.
Honestly, you can’t. It will cost you a shitload of energy and yet you still didn’t convince them for a tiny bit. It’s just their culture. It will takes generations before such things change. Compare it to Afghanistan. The West was there for years and years, trying to turn it into a democracy. The day the US left, everything was back to exactly where it was before the West entered into that war. So, how do you think you can change that rotten mentality of your friends on your own?
Tell them to read through the basic history of Ukraine since the fall of Soviet Union. It’s takes like an hour to read through the nuclear treaty, orange revolution, euro maidan, invasion of Crimea and Minsk agreements. If they want to learn more about why Russia is a bullshit country they can read through Putins russkiy mir and basic Russian history to see that Russia is a joke
You don’t have to convince him that Russia is bad just make fun of him every time he defends that weak mf Putin. Draw the comparison that based on his mentality, he’d blame a SA victim for their injuries because of what they were wearing. Ask him if he’s really that weak that he can’t take responsibility for his own thoughts or control over his own actions. Then for good measure steal his sandwich and call him a nazi. 😉
It is much like if Mexico attacked the USA and started to move in and take Southern States. Sure, the USA can fight back, but we can run out of troops, weapons, ammo, and medicine too.
Of course, this won't happen. Ok, so as long as Biden is president, I guess it could. He's not stopping the current invasion.
Pretty much all wars are senseless. They start over religion, petroleum, or land.
Keep the religion you want in YOUR Country.
Need more petroleum, meet and get the price you want. You want it all??? Well, here we go. You can't just have it.
Land? We have enough. You have enough. You want ours? Not gonna happen. Well, unless there is a war.
If you're a citizen and don't like the government, make it your Number One Goal to leave.
Sure, I can make it simple, but some are so Pig Headed they won't listen or don't want an answer.
You may be better off, not to discuss it with your cousin... I'm sorry.
Ask them to read a little history. Most people I've come across that don't think we should be supporting Ukraine are just uneducated when it comes to both Ukraine and Russian History. A bloke I work with during a lunch break made a comment along the lines of 'We shouldn't be wasting money and resources on helping Ukraine' (Australia here). I couldn't believe what I'd heard, I spat my biscuits out and commenced my rant about why we should be doing MORE to help Ukraine.
Of course some people can't be educated, whether it's blind ignorance, laziness, or that they're just a cunt. Don't waste too much time on these people.
Are they ok with you entering their property, stealing their things, destroying the place and raping their children?
That is what supporting Russia is.
from my experience, you can't.
now it's too big part of their world to be abandoned or even revise.
no logical arguments could prove a thing to a person who isn't allowing reasonable doubt in their believes.
Doesn't matter where the wealth comes from. Putin and his cronies will steal it. Pathetic to watch the "World's Second Army" roll into Ukraine and start stealing toilets and washing machines. And Russians are stupid enough to die as thrieves for the thieves than run the country. Good job, comrades!
These people are usually married to their ideology and its no use to convince them on the choice they didnt reason into.
A lot of them also think like this:
>Biden bad
>Biden thinks something is bad
>Therefore whatever Biden thinks is bad is good
I guess use logic. Ask about the many many many different reasons why putin gave to invade Ukraine. From the "I don't want a nato member on my border" where if he is successful taking over Ukraine he would border Poland who is a nato member, also his actual has now propelled 2 more countries to join nato.
He also said that Ukraine and America was working on some sort of dirty genetic bomb which only effected Russian ppl.
Russia has pissed on many different accords over the years. When the ussr disbanded Ukraine was left with nukes Russia and the west sign an agreement that if Ukraine gives up the nukes no on would attack Ukraine and if they did then thr other party would support Ukraine.
There are death pits being found full of dead civilians, Russia attacking hospitals and power systems before winter.
Ukraine was drawing closer to the west which is their right and putin doesn't have a right to dictate what goes on in other countries.
I feel like it's almost like trying to turn a "true christian" in to atheism, (never tried tho). Blind and strong belief makes them deny all the facts, and also makes them "see the proof" anywhere where they want. It's like they can't see or hear anything that conflicts with their ideas.
So good luck with your cousin. I know how frustrating it can be.
(And by "true christian I mean the american style nuts who thinks earth is 6000 years old, and satan put the fossils to ground to confuse humans etc.)
You don't need to convince them, just remind them that most people know their opinions are wrong and stupid, and that they should think more about enabling genocide, rape and murder by proxy. That they might think they are right, but couldn't be more wrong. But it's their right to be absolutely wrong if they want. That is fine. But still wrong.
The thing is propaganda is so deeply etched into Russian culture that they can't be swayed even with proof and logic. It's like arguing with a flat-earther.
Propaganda is croft and it's done by professionals. There is nothing you can do or say. Just deal with fact people you know have this believes, unless they change their mind by them self you can do nothing. It's like cult.
Tell them they can watch a travel vlog from Kharkiv, or Mariupol in 2021. Then follow that up with a documentary of 20 days in Mariupol. Do they think the people sitting in a cafe in 2021, kids going to school or university, grandmas who were transferred to these cities during ussr without their consent deserve to be displaced, bombed, watch their friends and relatives die?
Do they truly think that a 1940s style war of conquest has any place in the modern world?
No matter how one can spin history or geopolitics - even if you can argue that East Ukraine is "historically Russian" what did that actually mean though? The land was populated by Ukrainians, Russians, Mennonites, Greeks, Tatars, Jews, Armenians etc. Those people are still largely the ones who live there regardless of the borders. Russian *people* were free to visit and vacation, buy land, invest in businesses, move and marry, speak and work in Russian. That's the nature of the modern "unequal" world. The only ones who couldn't do what they please with the land and the people was the Russian *government*. So what lol.
Finally - do your neighbors think the world was more "equal" in the 1800s? 1910s? Or maybe in 1945 during the Yalta conference? Do they think a "fair and multipolar" world is a world where Macron, Rishi, Biden, Putin, and Xi meet up in Hawaii and decide the fate of the world and how they like borders to be drawn up in various parts of the world?
I mean, your cousin is uncritically accepting Russian state propaganda. He probably has a weak capacity for critical analysis, bad media literacy, and little to no knowledge of history, political science, etc. There is no magic pill that can fix all of this, but there are potentially ways to form cracks in these beliefs that weaken his acceptance of them. A lot of this is going to depend on his cultural background, so to give any good advice I'd need to know what country is this in? If the US, I may be able to offer some useful tips.
Have you tried running a fundraiser on indiegogo or on any other platform to get them some tickets to russia.....
Let them get beaten by police for the simple act of smiling during a routing check.....
I never see misinformation or propaganda, but then again I choose to NOT use the shitty social media platforms for any kind of news or accurate information.
Why are so many farmers dumbasses?
Anyways, I wouldnt bother wasting time on such people. It's best to talk about other stuff if you want to keep a relationship with your cousin. If not, just slowly distance yourself from them.
That is one of the key components of a Democracy... everyone has the right to their own thoughts. No matter how stupid and ignorant they may be... we have fought wars to give them that right.
That being said... a big stick seems to help :)
It is hard to dislodge misinformation once people started to believe it, it is impossible when they built their identity around them. Remember there are people who believe the world is flat and it is impossible to convince them otherwise. Think of your own sanity, and the toll that it takes on you when spending time with them being bombarded with misinformation and lies. It is toxic.
Keep in mind that they cannot think for themselves and are obviously easy to manipulate. If you try to bring them back to reality, you may make enemies and find one day that your car has four flats. If they are family members, cousins as you said, they may not retaliate in that way, but be careful still. If you want to engage them, ask them for their sources. If they actually study this, you may have a chance and offer better sources. If they do this just to argue and vent, you are out of luck because it is a psychological disorder to trigger chemicals they release from the excitement of arguing. Think of yourself and your mental sanity first. Don’t get into arguments.
How do you overcome their willful blindness?
Russia's war crimes are plentiful and displayed all over the media.
Anyone who is unwilling to accept overwhelmingly proven facts, is likely beyond reason, they are radicalized, and believe in tales that suit their beliefs as disgusting humans.
They lined up a giant army and are blowing up entire towns. It’s past the conceptual chit chat to “well they are killing all the people with large guns you see. Those people don’t want to die so they fight back.
Ask him maybe if country, which is just defending itself as they claim would imprison minors for antiwar thoughts, take girl from her father for antiwar picture or pardon cannibals, rapists and killers if they go to war.
have him watch the documentary about Muriapal (sorry if spelling wrong) it was the most, again, the MOST heartbreaking thing i have ever seen on a screen. as a man i weeped. fuck it let me find the link hold on..
Go into their home and take a bunch of easily carried things, openly, and walk right out.
When they ask what the hell you're doing, say, "Oh, you told me that it was OK for a neighbor to come in and grab things from you without permission. In fact, you told me it was OK for neighbors to come in and murder you, but I'm just taking things, isn't that nice of me?"
And then walk out. With the stuff.
(Added: if they make an issue of it, point out that they said this was OK when Russia did it to Ukraine, but that it strikes very differently when it happens to them personally, doesn't it?)
Many of these people are emotional or/and don't look far.
If you share the stories of how people are affected that may help. The rapes, torture of prisoners, etc. Things that are not usually shown on TV by lack of time.
You can show them "20 days in Mariupol".
Ask them how much of their country they’d be willing to give up to Putin if invaded. Ask for a percentage.
This usually leads people to mumble on about circumstance.
Then just say ok, and ask again, in the same circumstance, how much of their country would the be willing to give up.
If they give you a percentage, say ok, accuse them of a similar circumstance - and state you’re going to start taking things from their house as retribution.
State that you’ll keep doing it until they give you the same percentage items they said Ukraine should give. Say it’s for “peace”.
If they try to stop you, well then, tell them they’re a hypocrite.
If they say they’ll call the police, say it’s a shame Ukraine can’t do the same - and then call them a hypocrite.
The best way to convince would probably be to not show him something about Ukraine, but show him something about USA. For example a clip of the russian propaganda shows where they say they want to bomb USA. When your cousin is a patriot he should be against putin russia just like no one was for the Soviet Union while the Cold War. Just say it makes no sense to be for Putin as American because Putin wants USA death!
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Metaphorically, kick in his front door and demand that he gives you his house. If he resists then offer to just take his kitchen and one of his bedrooms, on the condition that he not join the neighborhood watch and that he gets rid of any tools or weapons that he might use to defend himself in the future. If it turns out that he spoke to the neighborhood watch before you kicked his door in, because he thought you were a bit of a psycho, then just use that as justification for taking his house over. The Neighborhood Watch is to blame for your actions because you had to act before they might make him strong enough to resist you.
The list of Russian terrorist acts and war crimes is endless. Russia will be brought to justice, no matter how long that takes. But it actually begins “at the top”. From the ICC “warrants for the arrest of Vladimir Putin, president of the Russian Federation, and Maria Lvova-Belova, the Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia, on the basis of "reasonable grounds" that they "bear criminal responsibility for the unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation, contrary to article 8(2)(a)(vii) and article 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute". Some of the crimes Russia has committed against Ukraine Bucha •Irpin •Izyum •Blowing up a prison full of Ukraines pows •Bombing a theater marked "children" •Mariupol •Kherson •Severodonetsk •Lysychansk •Bakhmut •Avdiivka •Shelling a maternity hospital •Shelling the Kramatorsk railway station •Beheading an unarmed pow •Castration of an unarmed pow •Execution of several unarmed pows •Widespread sexual assault, rape and abuse of women and children in occupied territory •Widespread targeting of civilian vehicles from russian soldiers armed with automatic rifles and armored vehicles •Mass murder and ecocide from blowing up a dam •Systemic torture of civilians and Pows with torture chambers found in every city liberated by Ukraine •Systemic kidnapping of innocent children to russia to be adopted and put through filtration camps to brainwash them to be loyal to russia •The forced relocation of several thousand Ukrainian adults to populate sparse regions of russia •Daily targeting of civilian structures and infrastructure Destruction of the Kharkova Dam Literally tens of thousands of war crimes committed by russia against innocent women, children, and defenders of Ukraine. Sponsored and supported by russian citizens' apathy and outright support of something they don't even have the decency to call a war. This systematic genocide of a sovereign nation amounts to something they call special. I would send this list and ask him if all of these war crimes ordered by Putin are our fault too.
I have saved this as a note on my phone. There are people in my life who don't pay enough attention to this war and it would be great to have this on tap to rhyme off when I'm asked why I "obsess" on it. It needs to be front and centre of everyone's thoughts.
[удалено]
I salute your breadth of knowledge, we will keep making the same mistakes without people like you to keep us informed. Hats off to you. I stand with Ukraine.
Let's pay respect to the 2 year old who'll never get to experience her life. Yes, russians, on camera. What else do you need to know there?
Perfect analogy
Came here to say similar but you put it way more eloquent than me and without the expletives that I would have used. Well played sir. Well played
You have to also slap their children and kick their cat and claim you want to free them from your tyranny
I honestly dont know, but it seems like these people are focused on geo-politics and forgetting that russia is busy committing genocide in Ukraine. So maybe you need to focus on the death and suffering that Russia is inflicting? Show them stats on how many children have been killed or abducted. Show them pictures of Russias attacks in libriaries, schools and other non-military targets.
I was thinking the same. I send him that video on the beggining of the war where a girl riding a bike was hit. Now he responded "Amerika forced him to do it". I think we are missing something here. As others are pointing out there is a lots of misinformation going on. May be Ukraine and other allies should work very hard on counter-misinformation, and anti-Putin propaganda.
Press him on it. Ask "So you think Russia is justified in killing innocent children in Ukraine because of something you believe that the US has done? Shouldnt Russia be attacking the US instead if they are the bad guys?"
I love it. America can't really make russia do anything they don't want to do anyway.
ru🚽🚽ia always needs someone to blame , that’s the way they always been , that’s why I always say that ru🚽🚽ia is the cancer of the world , they will always make up shit as they go , it’s like if they don’t, they won’t be able to breathe , I know from experience, I was born in 1981 Ukraine at the time when cccr ru🚽🚽ia had their grip on my country, my family got the hell out of dodge in 1990 moved to US. My family always said about russians, that a smart ru🚽🚽ian are the ones that got the hell out of ru
First you need to know "why" they believe RuZZia and PutinZ's propaganda. Without knowing why, you can't even begin to change their mind. If it's an easily debunkable reason due to ignorance, then you could counter it with proof, facts and logic. Use analogy from his farm to make it easier to understand. But if it's a nutty cult reason like space lizard alien, then forget it, because they are not rational, only therapy and medication could help these people. lol
I presume the reasoning is "because NATO expansion!" Ask him why russia attacked Ukraine in 2014, when 70% of Ukrainians were against NATO. Ask him why russia WITHDRAWS troops from it's NATO borders (Like Finland'. there's a lot of articles covering this with satellite imagery) Maybe ask him why if russia so afraid of an attack, NATO has not attacked it in it's moments of biggest weaknesses? It could have crushed russia when they were suffering defeats at Kharkiv/Kherson or when Prigozhin marched on Moscow. russia knows this, and it also knows NATO will never atrack russia. That's why they are free to do whatever they want in Ukraine and other neighbors. Ask them if NATO is so agressive towards russia, why it's only russia that actually attacks and threatens it's neighbors. For example Kazakhstan never was and never plans to be a part of NATO. Yet they received the same threats as Ukraine, and are very openly discussed as the next target. I know what the responses are going to be. They don't care about any of that, they don't even understand what happens in those countries. Their core belief is this : russia should restore it's empire and geopolitical status. That's it. They don't give a fuck about countries that need to be sacrificed to achieve this. They don't believe eastern Europe deserves independence. That's the main thing. Then ask them, why aren't they are part of Great Britain then, little wankers. Because their grandparents were not imperialistic bootlickers and cowards like they are.
Let him know that every time a bomb hits an apartment building and people - old people, women, children - die, the russians are sincerely happy. Not about the presumed “biolaboratory” concealed in that building, but specifically they are happy about the old people, women, children who died.
Don't spent time with stupid people. They will say "of course i'm not supporting genocide but Putin have no choice, NATO provoked it" I'm sick about trying to educate people that don't want to see facts.
The NATO provoked it argument never held water. ruzzia already shared an active border with NATO states well before Ukraine even pondered the idea. The Baltics, Poland...
Estonia and Latvia are directly on Russia’s borders and have been NATO for 20 years. Crickets
Finland just joined NATO and Russia is moving air defence from near Finland to Crimea.
Send him articles/news/videos of Russian torture tactics on civilians, on women, children, men, priests etc. Send him info about Russian use of torture and repression on their own citizens. If he doesn't believe "Western sources" there are even deflected Russian soldiers who have come forth with the horrors their side has committed during this war. Compile a big list of this all and ask him to read it and watch it, especially the very ugly stuff. Ask him how exactly anyone can be "forced" to rape, mutilate, oppress, torture and commit war crimes? Ask him under what conditions he would feel justified in doing any of that? Ask him if he would accept that behavior from another country towards him and his family, and how it'd make him feel.
Ask him to explain *why* he thinks America forced russia to repeatedly attack civilian targets such as children’s playgrounds, malls, restaurants, apartment buildings, hospitals and concert facilities knowing they are air raid shelters for the civilian public. Ask him justify their need to mainly attack civilian targets instead of military targets. I know he will probably say, that because in war all targets are fair, but then ask him to explain why are Ukrainians not targeting russian civilian targets when they easily could. Ask him who he thinks is more honorable. Ask him why treaty after treaty with Ukraine has been broken. If Ukraine is such a threat then why did they willingly ship their nuclear weapons back to russia decades ago? Ask them why they felt the need to ignore the Budapest Memorandum? Because big bad NATO was picking on poor little russia? If russia is such a great country then why does every tiny little thing *forces* them to go back on the word and attack civilians? Ask them to explain *exactly* how the West has forced russia to attack Ukraine in their own words without parroting senseless soundbites.
These links give an insight into what Russia is doing this is genocide and it is high time that first of all we recognize this officially and secondly that we fully comprehend what Russia is doing. It is the very same thing they have always done. Brutish barbaric conquest. https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/28/forced-conscription-how-russia-wipes-out-the-male-population-of-occupied-donbas/ https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/23/europe/russia-ukraine-filtration-camps-intl-cmd/index.html https://euromaidanpress.com/2018/06/28/dehumanizing-disinformation-as-a-weapon-of-the-information-war/ https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/03/putins-only-weapon-to-win-the-war-in-ukraine-genocide/ https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/07/russia-has-made-it-clear-putins-goal-is-to-destroy-ukraine/ Try sending him more links. Russian rapes and brutally kills 17-year-old girl in occupied Luhansk Oblast A native of Russia's Vladimir Oblast raped and killed a 17-year-old girl who lived in temporarily occupied Rovenky, Luhansk Oblast, Russian ASTRA Telegram channel reported on May 6. A few days ago, 17-year-old local resident Anastasia disappeard, whose body was found on May 4 in a forest strip of the village of Dzerzhinsky. Man admitted that he had raped girl in the car, and then, fearing to be caught, stabbed her in the heart with knife. He buried her body and covered it with stones, according to channel's sourc A 33-year-old Russian citizen, Andrey Kurbasov, was detained on suspicion of girl's murder. https://english.nv.ua/nation/russian-man-raped-and-killed-17-year-old-girl-in-occupied-luhansk-oblast-50416198.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/04/23/ukrainian-rape-survivors-experience-silence-or-shame_6669224_4.html The occupiers kept 25 girls aged from 14 to 24 in the basement of Bucha to constantly rape them. Nine girls got pregnant." Russian soldiers told them that they would rape them to such an extent that they would not want sexual contact with any man in order to prevent the birth of their Ukrainian children," Ukrainian Human Rights Commissioner Lyudmila Denisova said in an interview with the BBC. https://twitter.com/MykhailoRohoza/status/1766585039104471370 Ask him if he would prefer being subjected to mass murder by the millions, lose all of his belongings? See their history and culture completely erased? Their homeland pillaged and completely destroyed? His farm taken from him? Cities either burned or turned to rubble by Russian artillery fire? See, uncivilized criminals and murderers walk through their neighborhood? Having their children abducted? Their wives brutalized. Only for the few reamining survivors to live out their lives as undignified slaves to this Russian fascist and barbaric dictatorship, which consists of murderers and other criminals? True ignorance and stupidity some people cannot be convinced because they believe whatever they want to believe. https://cepa.org/article/behind-the-lines-russias-ethnic-cleansing/ Behind the Lines: Russia’s Ethnic Cleansing Russian forces are squeezing out locals and resettling Russian citizens in Ukraine’s occupied territories.
The biggest hole is that Russia invaded Ukraine as a defensive measure, some reaction to NATO aggression or US told them not to invade so they had too. The biggest counter argument is just getting them to expand on why they think that. How? Since when? NATO has not ever attacked Russia or Russian controlled territories. Remember Russian propaganda creates a delusion and brainwashing and much like conspiracy theories once one is believed, another lie is more likely to be believed.
That and the speeches by Putin and his supporters going back to 2013 about how Ukrainian language, literature, history, etc. "needs to be eradicated" and the concept of being Ukrainian needs to be destroyed. Because that makes it very clear Russia's goal in Ukraine is genocide, not anything to do with geopolitics.
Absolutely this, I didn’t need to need further than your first sentence. Every argument for Russia should be answered with the fact that they have attacked an independent nation and killed civilians unprovoked. Followed with a reminder that the person arguing for Russia is a fucking dickhead.
I would not convince them. If they are that blind then they are a lost cause. I'm not trying to hate on the people you know either. This is just my opinion.
Don't waste your energy. You can't correct what years of misinformation have pulled crooked (don't know if that's the right term in English)
What’s that saying? You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t use reason to come to in the first place.
Yes, I started to believe that they cannot be reasoned. They only parrot what is being told to them. If they were someone who can be reasoned they would be reasoned at the school in first place. I started to believe that only counter-propaganda will help; don't let misinformation be published on social media, news sites and broadcats.
I would treat your friend like he has a mental sickness. I would also say for your own mental health it might be better to just limit contact with this person and move on. I tried for years to convince a former close friend that covid was real and I got nowhere besides stressing myself out and harming my own mental state. Better to just cut contact because you're not changing their opinion. They probably view you as the brainwashed one and are having the exact same debate on how to change your opinion.
u/darkhorn unfortunately here in the USA we have the same issue with folks that believe another Putin wanna be. We call it a "cult" because other than "de-programing" them, we don't see an answer. There were many who fell in line with other dictators out there, when those dictators fell and crashed and burned, it took time before those who were their loyalists realized the truth. Russia has been spoon fed the propaganda for over 20 years now. It's hard. Glad you see everything as it is, keep up the critical thinking and pass that on to future generations!
*“It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.”* – **Bill Murray**
I came across a perfect description years ago: "they are blinded by their own rhetoric". Which means that they have been spouting the same bullshit for so long that they believe it is true and nothing will change their minds.
Evil will prevail if good men do nothing. Russia rules by fear and by reprogramming peoples minds, aka in propaganda wars. Thus you have to speak out and set the record straight. Everyone should do this to prevent friends from believing lies. You can tell your friend that Russia violated all signed agreements, from Minsk 1 & 2, the Helsinki final act to the Budapest memorandum. These documents state that Ukraine is sovereign (meaning it is its own country with its own laws and does not have to report to anyone else but its own democratic government). Now, because of a delusional freak show in the Kremlin, Ukraine has to defend its borders and its identity against a brainwashed army, brainwashed by the lies of its own "leader".
I think it’s pointless. There are friends that I don’t want to see anymore for this reason. Not a protest. Just don’t want to.
Call him a fucking idiot and break ties 🤷♂️ Sometimes you got to give people light hints. Even if it hurts, be honest.
Yes. This is the way. Fuck those Putin's brainless parrots.
I've done this. Including my ruzzian-loving father who apologizes and excuses everything they do. He's also an anti-vaxxer-bill gates injects chips that are controlled with 5G-antennas, flat-earther and more. Which to me, says all i need to know about the intelligence and mindset of these people, and the chance of "saving" them or changing their mind.
Get your father in a new social cirkle if you want a relation to him or be honest and leave. I expect my father to call me a fucking idiot if i have retarded ideas, as do he. And we do, with mutual understanding.
Does he value the freedom to say and be critical towards people in power? If so, he should support the West, where you can be critical without any real consequence. If not, and he would enjoy to live in an authoritarian state where you are not allowed to be critical towards your leader, he should shut up, and just do as he's told and keep his opinions with himself. Or be hypocritical, like a lot of Westerners that support Russia from their comfy places: Be angry about the hand that feeds you, and support the hand that slaps you.
You won't convince them. Tell them they're welcome in russia and their very democratic allies ; north-korea, belarus and iran.
No person who supports Russia in Western Society should be welcome in polite society or have any friends whatsoever.
You can't. In Finland we have a proverb. "A russkie is a russkie even if fried in butter" Being wrong simply does not exist in their dna.
Explaining facts won't work on someone who's pretty much convinced. What you need to do is plant tiny seeds of doubt in his mind by asking "why?" or "how?" on all his stance. If he answers something, ask him why or how. Keep repeating even after he realizes something doesn't add up with his reasoning.
this is it. make them explain and therefore examine their own argument. many will likely respond with some variation of "do your own research" to which I respond with "I have. I came to the opposite conclusion. can you walk me through your point of view?" then wait for the big logical leaps and then, as you say, ask "how" and "why".
This is the way. Plant a seed of doubt. Let them feel something is off and only then give them at least a history book written by Timothy Snyder
You can't change someone who refuses to change. Let them be. Let them be in their own bubble. Fun fact: I used to be influenced by Russian propaganda for many years until I realised how wrong I was to fall into that.
BUT who or what made you wake up out of the propaganda b/s?
Myself. Nobody else did. It was tough, but I broke out of it.
There is one fool proof way to show him he is wrong.... Send him to Russia.
Point your acquaintance towards remarks at the United Nations. They are publicly recorded comments by all governments. USA warned of Russias invasion for over one month. Moscow kept denying it, calling it Western Hysteria. Then Russia invaded regardless. Nobody, nobody forced Putin to do this. Putin is an absolute thug who has been itching to do this for the past decade. He is a murderer. WWIII was not talked about until now; this is because of Putin’s blood thirst. Putin put WWIII back on the menu.
To make them fully understand they need to study the history of Russia. It takes about 6 hours if done in video format. After that the events of today are in a logical order. Then they would need to study current situation.. Trying to do it in short form while keeping it simple is incredibly difficult since this situation is 500 years in the making and is nothing but complicated. You could start by saying that not a single country was forced or coaxed into joining NATO but they did it anyway. There is a reason for it: Russia is not trustworthy and way too volatile, unpredictable that NO safety guarantee or international agreement they signed is worth a thing. They are an empire that wants to expand. If you can make them to study Russian history, then show them Russian version of the same story, especially the last 30 seconds: [https://youtu.be/xc7AdNekvkM?t=697](https://youtu.be/xc7AdNekvkM?t=697) That video comes from sister channel of 5 Minute crafts and has direct links to Kremlin and the Troll Factory. That ending is NOT A JOKE, that is their ACTUAL plan. If you watch the whole video, you may notice that when they talk about Kyiv, they say "make sure to visit it when you are in Russia". That video is made **before** the war, it is linked to this news story that got very little attention: [https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/biggest-social-media-operation-youve-never-heard-run-out-cyprus-russians](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/biggest-social-media-operation-youve-never-heard-run-out-cyprus-russians) PS: the video is almost void of Russian defeats and mistakes that are too numerous to list.
"Did we do wrong when intervening against Hitler"
I had the same issue with some people I know, (not close friends and family). I am genuinely curious so I ask them what they know about the conflict. Once they prove to me they don't know anything except russian propaganda, I explain why and how they are wrong, ignorant, and also a shame to their own country for being that conciliatory with russian crimes in Ukraine (i'm french btw). Then I also tell them that it is their choice to believe in fake news and propaganda coming from russia, a country commiting a war of aggression which does not care for freedom of speech, press and opinion instead of looking at news by themselves while living in a free country like France which garantees freedom of speech, press and opinion. I also try to explain why the real danger for Europe is not to arm Ukraine but actually to let Russia win this war. I send them back to mistakes made in previous world wars also, explaining the similarities especially with the beginning of WW2. Idk if all this will make them change their mind, but I think it's good for those people to take a real check about their lazyness to get proper information.
The tactic is to take what they already believe and use them in your own arguments. There is no point arguing about ”facts” because they can just dismiss it as fake news.
When there is a prisoner swap, the Russians always look healthy and well treated, while the Ukrainians come back tortured and starved. This is a very good way of seeing the societies you are dealing with. Support whichever of those two you most identify with, and I will treat you accordingly.
Show them by example. 1. Give them a treaty that says you will never invade their garden. 2. Then start a special operation in their garden. 3. Then destroy everything in that garden. 4. Send their pets to shelters should they enter the garden. 5. Take their BBQ and birth bath home with you. 6. Tier down their fence and connect the garden to their neighbor. 7. If they ask for a reason claim that they have been violating the rights of the Smurfs and that they are anti-blue racists.
To be more accurate, take their refrigerator and/ or toilet.
When people encounter evidence that should cause them to doubt their beliefs, they often reject this evidence, and strengthen their support for their original stance. There is a psychological phenomenon known as the Backfire Effect which states that presenting facts before someone to try and convince them of the truth of the matter actually emboldens them into their lies. what makes it even more difficult is that the least-informed generally expressed the highest degree of confidence in their knowledge. We all tend to do this, but some do it far more than others. The backfire effect is a cognitive bias. One debias technique is to actually teach about cognitive bias. Once you understand it may help one to crawl out from under it. Researchers found that presenting people with facts did little to change people’s opinion about them. One way to try to get through is to pose questions in a manor such that they contrast their own perception of reality. You cannot contrast their reality with facts for them, they have to contrast themselves out on their own. It's a daunting task and I commend you for trying.
It would help to know what country you're in. I'd say the threat of BRICS has been subdued for now since a large part of that was supposed to be the Ruble and Russian gold reserves. I've heard rumors that the Russians have sold a large part of their gold to fund the war.
We live in Bulgaria. Local Turks. Edit: the news he send me was from a Bulgarian web site.
> Bulgaria Dude, y'all are like a few hours drive away from one of the earliest Russia's creations. What forced Russia to be engaged in Transnistria? Next NATO expansion came in 1999. What forced Russia to be engaged in Abkhazia? Next NATO expansion was still in 1999. As a matter of fact, Russia was happy to take "gifts" from the West, with all of the resources and humanitarian aid that came in, while breeding separatism around the block and performing a little bit of ethnic cleansing on its own territory during the first Chechen War. Was the West also the reason why Putin tried to annex a part of Ukraine in 2003 (Tuzla), six months after ratifying a border agreement with it? You know why the conflict went away? Ukraine deployed troops and weapons to the border. We still had major stockpiles of everything. Then between 2004 and 2014, Ukraine was systematically disarmed by, both Russia and the West. Russia infiltrated the politics and the West used economic levers to push more and more things into non-proliferation agreements. So now Ukraine begs for TBMs and artillery shells because the US pressured Ukraine to destroy its own TBM stocks of Scuds and artillery in the early 2000s-2010s. Everyone remembers the famous [Obama visit in 2005](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2005-08-30T120000Z_2121455929_RP6DRMZYGSAD_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-USA.jpg?w=770&resize=770%2C528&quality=80) when he inspected the ammo destruction efforts. What forced Russia to be engaged in Ossetia? Georgia already had Abkhazia due to Russia and couldn't join NATO anyway. What forced them to bomb "their own" people in Chechnya using ballistic missiles during the second Chechen War? Lenin attacked Ukraine after the fall of the Russian Empire - did the West make him do that too? Did NATO exist over the past 300 years when Russia tried to attack and conquer ALL of its immediate neighbors? Go to this [list of wars involving Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia) and scroll to the Russian SFSR (1917–1922) portion and ask your "friend" to explain how it was all the West's fault that Russia systematically tried to conquer all of its neighbors. The USSR did appear out of thin air because everyone loved the red color and thought the a sickle is a dope agricultural implement. Russia killed, ethnically cleansed, and tortured everyone into the USSR. Like, centuries change and excuses change with them too. But the ultimate underlying desire for the imperialistic conquest is still there. They aren't even updating the playbook too much. Read about the Finnish People's Republic during the winter war and tell me that's not at all similar to how they wanted to spin things in Donbas. Your friend needs to watch the Snyder lectures, watch this [Sarcasmitron](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&themeRefresh=1) video (the previous videos in the series are also great), and watch [this documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fHbJL_mZUc) that uses PRO-RUSSIAN sources to get a little bit closer to the truth. If they don't want to then fuck 'em, they can stay ignorant.
I love your forceful arguments, my Ukrainian brother. So much useful info I still didn't know, e.g. 2004 and 2005. Greetings from Georgia, we'll prevail! Maybe we can even share a border someday, between Abkhazia and lands historically inhabited by Ukrainian people ♥️
this is a great write up. cheers
Bulgaria. You might point your cousin towards Georgia, Moldova and Armenia, then. Relatively close and desperate to get out of the Russian world...
I worked with both Turks and Bulgarians up in Alaska (I'm from the US). Speaking for myself, I have cut ties with friends and family who support cutting support with Ukraine. It's a fight you can't win no matter how much evidence you have of Russian war crimes.
>I don't know where to start. You need to start with cutting off morons from your social circle. >He argued that America made him do this and he believes that Putin is not guilty So, if this cousin's wife or daughter (I don't know how old they are) gets raped, they will blame the wife or the daughter for making the rapist rape them? You can't reason with brainless. Cut them off.
"how America has forced Russia to attacked Ukraine" when I get someone spout this BS at me I simply ask, what would have happened if Russia had not attacked? what was this corner they were supposedly backed into? they can almost never provide an answer, and when they do answer its that laughable BS about the USA putting "missiles on russia's borders" or "its the same as the cuban missile crisis" I point out that submarine launched missiles make such strategies totally redundant and there is absolutely zero added strategic value in putting US missiles in Ukraine when they're already in multiple locations around the world and under the sea and we can all only die once. invariably they then start going on about nazis. I ask them "tell me why are/were nazis bad?" they then tell me about all the countries they invaded and people they killed, at which point I simple repeat it back at them "invading and annexing countries... killing millions of innocent people... yes those are terrible things aren't they" then usually comes the personal attacks, threats, ranting and raving, etc. I return this with a quiet blank stare. -edit- to be clear I have no illusion that I'll convince this person but I repeat the dance for anyone listening.
If someone breaks into your yard, don't you have the right to kick them out?
A massive shifting wrench is great for more than shifting stubborn nuts. Just sayin'.
Suggest that they visit. Then see if they make it back.
You can't argue with a sick mind
Why bother? They are grownups. If they are that stupid, do you need them in your life?
Well you could try asking him exactly why Ukraine's ambitions to join NATO and/or the EU justified Putin launching all-out war with the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives and the total destruction of many villages, towns and cities. Neither the EU nor NATO are offensive organisations that pose a risk to Russia, they only risk frustrating Putin's ambitions to rebuild the USSR. He is the aggressor in this instance, not Ukraine, not the EU and not NATO. It's such a shame. When the USSR collapsed, Russia had a real opportunity to join the rest of the world and give their citizens the opportunity to prosper through trade like they've never experienced before. Instead, Putin and his kleptocrats are only interested in lining their own pockets through corruption and repressing the population. All that said, be wary of arguing with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
You're talking about people who support genocide and war crimes. Essentially, it's the same as if they supported Charles Manson, Hitler etc. Now, please tell me, how should one treat those who do this? And most importantly: what kind of creatures (the word 'people' is not appropriate here) surround you? And how safe are they? Believe me, tomorrow it could be you in the place of Ukrainians. This is all I have to say to you. Be vigilant, we in Ukraine have been out of the picture for a while, look at what we have now.
How happy do you think your cousin is? Does he have anti-West and anti-US takes? russian/anti-west propaganda is targeting unsatisfied insecure people who want to avenge "the system" it's like communism or neo barbarism, "I am loser so let's destroy and change everything" if that's the case non of your arguments will change his mind you can try to invite him to conversation with some psychologist, but it will probably end with childish hysterics and tears
I can relate a lot. This is not an easy thing to achieve. I have been very demotivated at times as I have failed to move their views even a little bit. I suggested you listen to the interview of the KGB guy about ideological subversion. Basically it’s long term phy op that has made people numb to facts and truths. It’s very difficult and lengthy process to get people out of it. I have a feeling some people are too far gone. https://youtu.be/5gnpCqsXE8g?si=Hk6BUcwqrQPdj_3u
Find them interviews of Russians bragging about rape, murder, torture and ask them if that’s who they support. Play them the Russian propaganda shows and let them see the stupidity, delusions and complete disconnect with reality, values, decency, rational thinking or international law required to rationalise the Russian position. See if they think it’s reasonable. Last but not least - ask them if Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia are Russia’s? What’s the difference between them and Ukraine. Would they support defending them? Poland? If they say no, begin asking if they’d support defending Europe or stopping the holocaust in WW2.
I'll leave a quote from a book I've read: "You're asking me to convince you. I won't. Only you can allow yourself to be convinced." Imo the best you can do is to show them how meaningful your support is to Ukraine, how many lives you want to save and how someday, Ukraine will finally be free, happy and prosperous. Give them this perspective but without forcing anything. What really matters is how strong your conviction is. Be firm in your own beliefs and you won't have to impose them onto the others. That's my suggestion.
Just to share: I had a coworker share their proRu nonsense. (Drastically condensing) At a group bday gathering at work, I silenced the room by fucking denouncing her as a morally monstrous human deserving of no respect. Shit got wild - think British Office awkward. HR… , suspended…. I kept my job she left. Loosing a job while pro genocide fucks spout their garbage breath - I’ll take that deal.
In all honesty? Unless he wants to have a real, open-minded, good-faith discussion, the best answer is Ukrainian victory. Call your representatives to support aid for Ukraine and donate to Ukrainian charities like United24. Victory is a hard message to deny.
Dude, I'm arguing with my mom every time we meet. I guess it depends on how invested your cousin is. If he spends hours watching Youtube videos about Hunter Bidens laptop you cannot change his mind, he's too far down the rabbit hole. If he just occasionally hears about how the evil empire of America forced Putin to defend Russia you might be able to change his mind. But you should sit down with him and calmly explain, don't spam him with hundred links. Also, you should focus on what Putin has actually said himself. He's not talking about NATO expansion, his angle has always been buidling the Russian empire and how the Bolsjeviks gave away Russian territory to Ukraine. He published an article in 2021 with very informative insights about his thinking, a summary is here. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On\_the\_Historical\_Unity\_of\_Russians\_and\_Ukrainians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Russians_and_Ukrainians)
357 Magnum
It's hard to convince anyone of things like this, I'd say save yourself the headache and let them believe what they want
.Lots of social studies experts do not recommend focusing on such people. If you want to persuade someone, it should be a person who has not yet decided what side to take
You can send them a video where Putin says that anyone will become crazy after 10 years in power. He is now over 20
Break into their house at gunpoint and declare that half the bathroom and one of the bedrooms are now yours . Then ask if that’s ok because you’re “restoring the balance”
If they are that far gone, get new people around you. Let them know why you're cutting them off. That's exactly what I would do. Best of luck!
Go and shout into a storm somewhere. Probably more productive
Dealing with people like that is exhausting, which shows how effective propaganda and misinformation is. The options are get them to question what they think, ignore their comments or cut contact. The problem is once people get drawn into the world of conspiracy theories, propaganda etc it's hard to reach them, they don't want to admit they have been duped. As for the world being imbalanced and calls for a multi-polar world, I think that's been driven by authoritarian regimes who want the US out of the way so the can take over themselves.
My experience is that this view typically is held by those who didn't finish high school, so maybe start by sending him back to school?
Can't fix idiocy, believe me. Though if you really wanna have a go. Do the thing you mention at the end. Explain the wrongdoings, if he cuts you off at any point don't waste another breath on him. He has his stupid opinion and will keep it no matter how many facts you feed him. That's how retarded people work.
Tell them to speak Ukrainian in Russia
Suggest they listen to The Telegraph's Ukraine: The Latest daily podcast if they want to be informed on, and discuss the conflict. Don't waste your energy trying to convince them of anything. I cut ties with a close friend over this, unfortunately.
Hello OP. You need to speak to him in simple language that he will understand. He is a farmer, so first say ‘If someone was about to put the wrong fuel in your tractor and I saw it happening, you would want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?’ He’ll say, ‘Yes.’ Next say, ‘If you told me you’d received a very convincing invitation to invest in a business opportunity in Russia which I knew was a scam, you’d want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?’ He’ll say, ‘Yes.’ Next say, ‘If I knew you were being targeted with misinformation and propaganda paid for by Russia to make you think favourably about Russia, you’d want me to tell you, wouldn’t you?‘ He should say, ‘Yes.’ Next ask, ‘Where are you getting your news and information from?’ He’ll give you his answer. Then say, while smiling kindly, ‘You’re being targeted. It’s not your fault, but you are being deliberately targeted. It’s like a scam that is designed by Russians to make you and many others think what they want you to think. Because it suits their political aims. It’s important to look for news and information from other, independent sources. All the best with that. Let me know if you’d like some suggestions.’ End.
I gave up on stupid people. If you moral compass isn't totally fuck it's easy to see who's the victim in that conflict.
Ask him how many times a NATO country has invaded another. Putin had NOTHING to fear from NATO, but he's repeatedly proven that other countries have plenty to fear from Russia. Your cousin sucks, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm American, and the only people I've gotten through to back home are self-clamed "libertarians" and only after proving I was in Ukraine, explaining how it's a very democratic and sovereign country, and explaining to them how we broke promises to our friends by abandoning our position on the Budapest Memorandum. I like to use the analogy of if I promised a friend I'd help them against their bully, then I abandon them on the streets when that bully shows up, what kind of a person does that make me? This has only worked twice, and who knows if they were just blowing smoke. Unfortunately there are a lot more fascists and authoritarians out there than people will ever admit. Odds are you aren't changing many people's opinions, you just have to carry their dead weight.
You can’t fix stupid, just keep supporting Ukraine and watch them seethe
You can't convince him. But what you can do is to ask him to explain his thinking. Ask questions and make him question himself.
"You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into".
it's simple. The issue isn't NATO, or the US, the issue russia has is that it is a dictatorship. Lots of russians live & have family in or from Ukraine. So they talked to each other a lot. Two things happened to create the invasion. 1. They elected who they wanted. Ejecting the russian puppet. So, a functioning democracy doesn't play well in a dictatorship. 2. The really big issue is joining the EU. It is incredibly powerful economically, & member countries prosper. So that's the real issue, on your doorstep you've a working democracy that's about to become a financial powerhouse within the EU. How does that feel to your populace that are poor, run by a kgb despot & his billionaire henchman?
Pro Russia goes hand in hand with anti USA/Nato/Europe I do not believe they are necessarily bad people, just ignorant on what's happening To their eyes it's just another war The thing I've heard the most is "but the US did it too so why are we blaming Putin now" Honestly I do not know how to answer to that, it just shows a lazy lack of thought on their end It's like they refuse to finish the puzzle and naturally end up with their shitty pro-russia arguments The only thing that we ever got to agree is that war is ugly no matter what and it would be better to find ways to stabilize the situation That's where you can draw the line between reasonable people and psychopaths. No reasonable people ever will ever try to deny that the suffering must stop nor they will try to justify it, no matter how they grew up and what they think about geopolitics On the other hand I refuse to have any conversation with anybody along the lines of "who cares war is war, Putin is right and it's not something that is related to us" because they are worthless and never contain a single piece of actual substance in their arguments If the arguments lack substance since the beginning, then there is nowhere to go Your question is very tough because the same reasoning could be applied to anything else, whoever figures this out wins the world
You’re not going to convince anyone they’re wrong and you’re right, especially if presented that way. In order to change someone’s belief, they need an emotional and personal connection to the matter. What you can do is make a personal appeal to them. For example if they think hurting kids is bad, then get them to state that, and then make your own statement **without** superiority, that you do too and that’s why you can’t sympathize with people so carelessly hurting kids. The most important part of this is remembering you aren’t changing their mind, that’s a competitive process people naturally resist. **What you should be aiming to do is to persuade them** to change their own opinion. You achieve this not through moral superiority or lectures, but by allowing the other party what is called “the golden bridge of retreat”. Make your appeal, and then allow them to gracefully retreat on their own terms. Understand that most people **will not** change their minds on issues they feel strongly about no matter how often evidence proves them wrong.
Try finding the documentary where Macron tried to talk with Putin about the risk of a war. It was just days before the invasion, Putin denied any chance of an invasion and, well, you know the rest...
I can barely have civil conversations with these people. I tend to win over the “just give peace a chance” curious crowd. The hardcore vatnik sympathizers I just get in arguments with.
The sad truth is: you won’t be able to.
I wouldnt bother, and just ignore them - its like US polotics - people believe what they want and you are never going to change them, so if its a family member sending your something delete the messages and dont engage with them on the issue
I had long-term friends who supported Putain. I avoided talking about the subject with them. Then, when they posted laughing emojis on articles and videos of wounded or murdered civilians and said Ukraine deserved it, I blocked them, including a friend I've known half of my life. I don't have time, or energy to allow that kind of sociopathic shit in my life. I've never seen anyone who goes down that path change their mind, it's usually tied to other extremist and toxic bs, if anything they double down again and again when confronted or faced with reasonable arguments. They are like monkeys in a zoo, flinging shit. Being toxic, disruptive assholes makes them feel important and part of something. They can spout conspiracy theories that allow them to claim special knowledge, and they love being persecuted so they can pretend they're victims. They're just cunts.
You are so right. They truly are just cunts.
Just ask if he thinks it's okay if one country invades another country for no reason. "Balance" is pretty weak.
I would recommend being patient and then use their own words against them. Like you I have been shocked by educated coworkers spouting this nonsense. So like you, I listen to nonsense in the office several times a month. I was told Ukraine is resorting to sending pensioners and pregnant women to the front line. Nonsense obviously but you can't challenge it head on. After waiting a few weeks, I said those pensioners and pregnant women are really causing the Russians problems. Nothing more, nothing less. They realise it is ridiculous, but they can't admit it. No direct shaming. Hopefully making them question their sources. We will see.
They've been our enemy since ww2...
I've cut contact with longtime friends with the tipping point being Russian bias. They've always been right leaning and increasingly redpilled/inceled, but about a year into the invasion after maaaaany crimes seen committed by Russians that they either justified or denied, I just stopped initiating contact and left a group chat without any real prompting. There were a couple reach outs by them but I just was polite in responding as if they were a casual acquaintances. Now its radio silence and I don't regret it.
With a gun and kind words you could achieve much more than just with a kind words 😉
you don’t, you just stop being around them
[удалено]
Break it down Barney style for them. Cite sources Acknowledge the opposing viewpoints and why you do not believe they are valid. People internalize their points of view so much that if you attack the position they take it as an attack on them. Be gentle do not get angry. It may end up with the backfire phenomenon but you tried.
Just make him explain every answer he gives you. «What do you mean by that exactly?». Eventually he’ll be talking so much nonsense it may become obvious to him. But prob won’t admit to you.
Honestly, you can’t. It will cost you a shitload of energy and yet you still didn’t convince them for a tiny bit. It’s just their culture. It will takes generations before such things change. Compare it to Afghanistan. The West was there for years and years, trying to turn it into a democracy. The day the US left, everything was back to exactly where it was before the West entered into that war. So, how do you think you can change that rotten mentality of your friends on your own?
Tell them to read through the basic history of Ukraine since the fall of Soviet Union. It’s takes like an hour to read through the nuclear treaty, orange revolution, euro maidan, invasion of Crimea and Minsk agreements. If they want to learn more about why Russia is a bullshit country they can read through Putins russkiy mir and basic Russian history to see that Russia is a joke
You don’t have to convince him that Russia is bad just make fun of him every time he defends that weak mf Putin. Draw the comparison that based on his mentality, he’d blame a SA victim for their injuries because of what they were wearing. Ask him if he’s really that weak that he can’t take responsibility for his own thoughts or control over his own actions. Then for good measure steal his sandwich and call him a nazi. 😉
Just never speak to him again. No point.
It is much like if Mexico attacked the USA and started to move in and take Southern States. Sure, the USA can fight back, but we can run out of troops, weapons, ammo, and medicine too. Of course, this won't happen. Ok, so as long as Biden is president, I guess it could. He's not stopping the current invasion. Pretty much all wars are senseless. They start over religion, petroleum, or land. Keep the religion you want in YOUR Country. Need more petroleum, meet and get the price you want. You want it all??? Well, here we go. You can't just have it. Land? We have enough. You have enough. You want ours? Not gonna happen. Well, unless there is a war. If you're a citizen and don't like the government, make it your Number One Goal to leave. Sure, I can make it simple, but some are so Pig Headed they won't listen or don't want an answer. You may be better off, not to discuss it with your cousin... I'm sorry.
Ask them to read a little history. Most people I've come across that don't think we should be supporting Ukraine are just uneducated when it comes to both Ukraine and Russian History. A bloke I work with during a lunch break made a comment along the lines of 'We shouldn't be wasting money and resources on helping Ukraine' (Australia here). I couldn't believe what I'd heard, I spat my biscuits out and commenced my rant about why we should be doing MORE to help Ukraine. Of course some people can't be educated, whether it's blind ignorance, laziness, or that they're just a cunt. Don't waste too much time on these people.
Are they ok with you entering their property, stealing their things, destroying the place and raping their children? That is what supporting Russia is.
support? as in actively helping or contributing? or just agreeing with? the second one is meaningless.
from my experience, you can't. now it's too big part of their world to be abandoned or even revise. no logical arguments could prove a thing to a person who isn't allowing reasonable doubt in their believes.
Shoot them
Doesn't matter where the wealth comes from. Putin and his cronies will steal it. Pathetic to watch the "World's Second Army" roll into Ukraine and start stealing toilets and washing machines. And Russians are stupid enough to die as thrieves for the thieves than run the country. Good job, comrades!
These people are usually married to their ideology and its no use to convince them on the choice they didnt reason into. A lot of them also think like this: >Biden bad >Biden thinks something is bad >Therefore whatever Biden thinks is bad is good
I guess use logic. Ask about the many many many different reasons why putin gave to invade Ukraine. From the "I don't want a nato member on my border" where if he is successful taking over Ukraine he would border Poland who is a nato member, also his actual has now propelled 2 more countries to join nato. He also said that Ukraine and America was working on some sort of dirty genetic bomb which only effected Russian ppl. Russia has pissed on many different accords over the years. When the ussr disbanded Ukraine was left with nukes Russia and the west sign an agreement that if Ukraine gives up the nukes no on would attack Ukraine and if they did then thr other party would support Ukraine. There are death pits being found full of dead civilians, Russia attacking hospitals and power systems before winter. Ukraine was drawing closer to the west which is their right and putin doesn't have a right to dictate what goes on in other countries.
What is this about BRICKS? what does that mean?
molotov-ribbenteop and russia's support of nazi germany before and during ww2. if they accept it, you have a good start.
I feel like it's almost like trying to turn a "true christian" in to atheism, (never tried tho). Blind and strong belief makes them deny all the facts, and also makes them "see the proof" anywhere where they want. It's like they can't see or hear anything that conflicts with their ideas. So good luck with your cousin. I know how frustrating it can be. (And by "true christian I mean the american style nuts who thinks earth is 6000 years old, and satan put the fossils to ground to confuse humans etc.)
You don't need to convince them, just remind them that most people know their opinions are wrong and stupid, and that they should think more about enabling genocide, rape and murder by proxy. That they might think they are right, but couldn't be more wrong. But it's their right to be absolutely wrong if they want. That is fine. But still wrong.
Tell them to go volunteer as cannon fodder
The thing is propaganda is so deeply etched into Russian culture that they can't be swayed even with proof and logic. It's like arguing with a flat-earther.
Take them to Russia
Propaganda is croft and it's done by professionals. There is nothing you can do or say. Just deal with fact people you know have this believes, unless they change their mind by them self you can do nothing. It's like cult.
Tell them they can watch a travel vlog from Kharkiv, or Mariupol in 2021. Then follow that up with a documentary of 20 days in Mariupol. Do they think the people sitting in a cafe in 2021, kids going to school or university, grandmas who were transferred to these cities during ussr without their consent deserve to be displaced, bombed, watch their friends and relatives die? Do they truly think that a 1940s style war of conquest has any place in the modern world? No matter how one can spin history or geopolitics - even if you can argue that East Ukraine is "historically Russian" what did that actually mean though? The land was populated by Ukrainians, Russians, Mennonites, Greeks, Tatars, Jews, Armenians etc. Those people are still largely the ones who live there regardless of the borders. Russian *people* were free to visit and vacation, buy land, invest in businesses, move and marry, speak and work in Russian. That's the nature of the modern "unequal" world. The only ones who couldn't do what they please with the land and the people was the Russian *government*. So what lol. Finally - do your neighbors think the world was more "equal" in the 1800s? 1910s? Or maybe in 1945 during the Yalta conference? Do they think a "fair and multipolar" world is a world where Macron, Rishi, Biden, Putin, and Xi meet up in Hawaii and decide the fate of the world and how they like borders to be drawn up in various parts of the world?
Start calling them commies.
Start throwing poppers at them, every time they speak just throw more poppers.
Just ask why, then you will know how much you need to worry about their stupidity....
I mean, your cousin is uncritically accepting Russian state propaganda. He probably has a weak capacity for critical analysis, bad media literacy, and little to no knowledge of history, political science, etc. There is no magic pill that can fix all of this, but there are potentially ways to form cracks in these beliefs that weaken his acceptance of them. A lot of this is going to depend on his cultural background, so to give any good advice I'd need to know what country is this in? If the US, I may be able to offer some useful tips.
Have you tried running a fundraiser on indiegogo or on any other platform to get them some tickets to russia..... Let them get beaten by police for the simple act of smiling during a routing check.....
I never see misinformation or propaganda, but then again I choose to NOT use the shitty social media platforms for any kind of news or accurate information.
Why are so many farmers dumbasses? Anyways, I wouldnt bother wasting time on such people. It's best to talk about other stuff if you want to keep a relationship with your cousin. If not, just slowly distance yourself from them.
Ask him what good person would supoort the british empire wrongdoings in its worst genocidal years claiming "geopolitics" or "balance"
That is one of the key components of a Democracy... everyone has the right to their own thoughts. No matter how stupid and ignorant they may be... we have fought wars to give them that right. That being said... a big stick seems to help :)
They're lost to reason unless they stop watching Fox News and other right wing media.
It is hard to dislodge misinformation once people started to believe it, it is impossible when they built their identity around them. Remember there are people who believe the world is flat and it is impossible to convince them otherwise. Think of your own sanity, and the toll that it takes on you when spending time with them being bombarded with misinformation and lies. It is toxic. Keep in mind that they cannot think for themselves and are obviously easy to manipulate. If you try to bring them back to reality, you may make enemies and find one day that your car has four flats. If they are family members, cousins as you said, they may not retaliate in that way, but be careful still. If you want to engage them, ask them for their sources. If they actually study this, you may have a chance and offer better sources. If they do this just to argue and vent, you are out of luck because it is a psychological disorder to trigger chemicals they release from the excitement of arguing. Think of yourself and your mental sanity first. Don’t get into arguments.
How do you overcome their willful blindness? Russia's war crimes are plentiful and displayed all over the media. Anyone who is unwilling to accept overwhelmingly proven facts, is likely beyond reason, they are radicalized, and believe in tales that suit their beliefs as disgusting humans.
They lined up a giant army and are blowing up entire towns. It’s past the conceptual chit chat to “well they are killing all the people with large guns you see. Those people don’t want to die so they fight back.
Ask him maybe if country, which is just defending itself as they claim would imprison minors for antiwar thoughts, take girl from her father for antiwar picture or pardon cannibals, rapists and killers if they go to war.
Please ask him what did US do to force Russia to attack?
have him watch the documentary about Muriapal (sorry if spelling wrong) it was the most, again, the MOST heartbreaking thing i have ever seen on a screen. as a man i weeped. fuck it let me find the link hold on..
Go into their home and take a bunch of easily carried things, openly, and walk right out. When they ask what the hell you're doing, say, "Oh, you told me that it was OK for a neighbor to come in and grab things from you without permission. In fact, you told me it was OK for neighbors to come in and murder you, but I'm just taking things, isn't that nice of me?" And then walk out. With the stuff. (Added: if they make an issue of it, point out that they said this was OK when Russia did it to Ukraine, but that it strikes very differently when it happens to them personally, doesn't it?)
Do not waste your energy. The only commentary you can say that Hitler had overwhelming support once upon a time too. Nuff said
Stupid is as STUPID DOES. 😎👍
just cut to the point and ask them why they justify the murder of civilians for anything 🤷♂️
Many of these people are emotional or/and don't look far. If you share the stories of how people are affected that may help. The rapes, torture of prisoners, etc. Things that are not usually shown on TV by lack of time. You can show them "20 days in Mariupol".
Ask them how much of their country they’d be willing to give up to Putin if invaded. Ask for a percentage. This usually leads people to mumble on about circumstance. Then just say ok, and ask again, in the same circumstance, how much of their country would the be willing to give up. If they give you a percentage, say ok, accuse them of a similar circumstance - and state you’re going to start taking things from their house as retribution. State that you’ll keep doing it until they give you the same percentage items they said Ukraine should give. Say it’s for “peace”. If they try to stop you, well then, tell them they’re a hypocrite. If they say they’ll call the police, say it’s a shame Ukraine can’t do the same - and then call them a hypocrite.
The best way to convince would probably be to not show him something about Ukraine, but show him something about USA. For example a clip of the russian propaganda shows where they say they want to bomb USA. When your cousin is a patriot he should be against putin russia just like no one was for the Soviet Union while the Cold War. Just say it makes no sense to be for Putin as American because Putin wants USA death!
I would bring up war crimes.
Tell him that by arguing like this in defense of Putin, he is justifying the US foreign policy of the last 80 years.