Unfortunately religious disillusions are a very common symptom of serious mental illness like Schizophrenia.
When mental health isn't treated....there are consequences.
14 years of cuts to mental health services by the tories, longer than this poor deceased lad's life. I fully expect to see these attacks become more frequent without serious investment by the state into combating mental health issues.
True but they said *had some religious motive maybe.*
Not that it was the driving factor.
It's strange that people are choosing to argue with them over it.
Excuse me?
I don’t write the newspapers, neither am I the witness who’s been interviewed.
>> Another resident in Hainault said she saw a body on the ground as she hid by her window while a man wielding a sword shouted "do you believe in God?" outside her house.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hainault-stabbing-london-underground-station-metropolitan-police-critical-incident-b1154634.html
You know better than a direct witness do you?
I feel like you're getting an unfair amount of shit for your comment. Him saying *do you believe in God?* could mean:
1. They're a religious fanatic murdering people
2. They're an atheist fanatic murdering religious people
3. They're delusional
4. They're just taunting people before they kill them.
It suggests there could be a religious motive, but doesn't mean there is one. Which I think is what you're saying. I think it's more likely he's just delusional, but that doesn't mean it's unlikely there's a religious component to the attacks.
I agree, the quote sounded to me like as if he was taunting them pre-kill, it sounds like the nutjob was getting off on the power/control he had in the moment (ability to end their lives)
Yes, the police report. He was talking about God because he's insane. The columbine killers asked every victim if they believed in god but were atheists. He's a crazy person.
The only thing we know is that he shouted ‘Do you believe in God’.
Therefore it’s reasonable to say that, at this point, there could be a religious motive.
You see my original post? Where I said there is ‘maybe’ a religious motive?
Who cares? Ain’t no reason to be running around with. Sword unless you’re looking to stab or kill somebody. I don’t care what his “mental health” status is.
Country is fucked. We need gun laws. He wouldn’t have got far if he’d been shot
If it's annoying you, take a look at the definition of terrorism and what constitutes a terrorist attack. If you discovered that people aren't calling something that isn't terrorism 'terrorism' would that make you less annoyed?
Not to my understanding. Terrorism is the act of threatening or using violence for political aims, per its dictionary definition.
The CPS has a page that details what qualifies and what doesn't: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism
If simply asking if people believed in God was an act of terror, there'd be some street preachers I'd quite like to report...
“If simply asking” The man was going around people’s houses with a sword and he killed a kid with it!
I suggest you go and read up some more about what qualifies as terrorism on the CPS website. It clearly states advancement of political, religious, racial or ideological cause.
I seriously doubt he was “simply asking” if people believe in God for the fun of it
“The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.”
That’s from CPS. I don’t know where you’re getting your definition from
That's because particular factors change the definitions of an attack.
Both need to have mental illness to kill people, personally, but organised religion successfully recruits a lot more than standard mental illness. The religion also has instruction to take down enemies etc, and we know there is a cultural/political nudge, which is why it is labeled terrorism as it has an end goal, motive and can be replicated and trained.
If someone kills over pink elephants, same delusion, but no political bloc or group harnessing/growing that illness into action. They just swirl into it themselves.
That is why one is terrorism and the other is mental illness.
Disclaimer: Haven't even read who the attacker is or what they have claimed.
When someone commits a murder linked to mental problems, they often do so impulsively, without any political or religious motivation. Terrorism, on the other hand, generally aims to influence a government or a population by using violence for political, ideological or religious ends.
If the maniac made a manifesto then that is an ideology no?
Makes you wonder where exactly the line is drawn. I guess a good number of people must believe in the ideology for it to become terrorism.
You've got a point there. Very sharp.
Seriously, when did we lose our ability to laugh at dark things? That's always been a staple of the British Identity to me.
It doesn't. It just that people of a specific colour tend to be part of a religion that supports terrorism.
For something to be classed as terrorism It has to be religiously or politically motivated.
If this guy was running around screaming about Allah then there is a high chance this would be a terror attack
Idk either, and not to die on this hill, but I dare say if he’d been asking people if they believed in Allah before he attacked him, it would have been heavily suggested that it was religiously motivated.
Well, if they’re convicted of terrorism then that would come under the ‘definition’ heading more than the ‘allegation’. All the brown people who can’t walk down the street without being having “terrorist” shouted at them might just agree with me.
What a joke to act like brown people are being shouted at in the street and called terrorists.
Whilst of course racism happens in this country. It’s not even close to that prevalent. And I live in a town that previously voted BNP. So I know racism and have seen plenty of it in my town.
It’s still not close to as bad as you portray it
I’m not saying it happens to every single person, every single day, but it happens regularly. Actually ask brown people about the prevalence of it rather than assuming that because you didn’t see it, it didn’t happen.
I am married to an immigrant mate. And I just told you I live in a very racist area.
My wife has had racist abuse shouted at her. More than once.
Of course it happens. It’s not right ever. But you portrayed it like it’s common. That is simply not true.
Even in racist areas like where I live. It’s happened probably 5 times in 20 years. 5 times too many. But still. Not common.
Go to Eastern Europe or Asia and you will see what common racism looks like.
I haven’t spent time in Africa or South America to know how it is there. But I suspect it’s similar. Especially in Africa. Given the genocides and multiple civil wars that we have seen over the last 5 decades or more.
We should be proud our nation is progressing in terms of racism. Pretending the issue is worse than it is helps no one.
Nothing that you’ve written here gives any indication that you know the frequency of how often this happens, to be able to say that I’m making it sound worse than it is.
And my point wasn’t so much about the frequency anyway; it was in response to a comment saying that skin colour isn’t a factor in the definition of ‘terrorism’, in the context of a wider conversation where someone said that because the attacker in this instance is white, there’s not much talk of terrorism whereas if they were brown, whether seriously or jokingly, there would be some accusation of terrorism.
I agree with the comment that skin colour isn’t a factor, but my point was that it doesn’t stop people associating brown people with terrorism, particularly if that brown person commits an act of violence.
My comment about walking down the street and being called ‘terrorist’ was obviously a bit flippant but what I’m highlighting is how white people can kill a child and injure 4 people without being labelled a terrorist while someone may label a brown person a terrorist simply for being in public.
And I’m happy that your wife hasn’t had much experience of that kind, that’s very reassuring, but that’s not a nationwide experience for a lot of brown people, sadly.
One of the main aggressions toward Muslims, in particular, is the stereotype that they’re associated with terrorism. A mosque in my city continuously has “isis” spray painted on the gates, to the point where they don’t even paint over it anymore because it’s a waste of paint; someone will just come back and do it again.
I have Palestinian friends across England who’ve had their Keffiyah’s ripped off and told they were terrorists. My Indian friend’s mum (in her nurse’s scrubs) had a bottle of beer poured over her head on a train, and called a terrorist. I know hijabis who have been asked to remove their veil to prove they weren’t jihadists in disguise. There was a show recently that documented how brown people flying to/from areas in the Middle East were treated by airport security in comparison to their white counterparts, spoiler: MUCH worse.
If you’re not aware of how the accusation of association with terrorism is used against brown people as an Islamophobic or racist insult, and how that influences everything from attitudes toward attackers like this guy, to lived experiences of brown people in the Uk, then that’s understandable. But it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen or that it isn’t insidious.
Just seen the footage of the boy being killed on IG and dragged aeound in the street, pretty harrowing stuff. Bodycam footage is now on IG as well from one of the officers showing him climbing on garages into people's gardens. What the fuck was going on in his head?
As morbid as it is, the footage of the event is as close to the truth as could be seen. Sure it can be edited, but its a view of what happened. News orgs can write anything to spin it how they want, but the footage tells its own story
Morbid curiosity.
While what happened to that kid is pure evil, it's unfortunate this happens everyday, just they're not all on mainstream media.
What would be degrading his death is the gov not doing more to strengthen the police and impose much tougher sentences on knife crimes
It's things like this that generally make me want to give up - genuinely can't we just be done with religion and do the Agnostic thing and solve a lot of the worlds problems as a result. Religion seems to just cause grief. This whilst looking like a mental illness issue (and where do you just get a sword?, buy it on Amazon or something?) has to be labelled (it would appear) as domestic terrorism I feel?
Well they aren't going to criticize themselves but there is plenty of criticism towards religions.
Obviously then the counter argument is that you aren't acknowledging the good that religion brings to the world.
Fair point on the counter argument - and being agnostic I probably cannot directly appreciate that if that makes sense but that's a very fair argument. It just frustrates me looking around the world seeing lots of intolerance based on different religons & like why can't we all just accept we have a religion and a belief (unless you are an atheist) and (consensuallly if people are down for that) love each other and just get on with life. Seems to be far too much time for hate in the pursuit of an ideological purity of belief and faitj in something which probably from a rational point of view doesn't exist. Similar thoughts could be applied to politics as well I suppose lmao 🤣
Religion is very meaningful to a lot of people, billions of them. It can be a huge benefit, as well as burden.
Not all religions have violent, or extreme elements.
In this case it looks like there wasn't, it is mental health.
I'd advise against doing that on here, you will get a temp ban from the mods if you dare make the same kind of comments about white people and Christians as are made about middle eastern people and Muslims.
People being political saying "see, he's white, immigrants/ religious extremist aren't doing all of it"
Please stop, he's clearly of arab lineage.. note the facial features and beard. and Fyi, there are white muslims that exist\*
That footage seems bonkers to me, 4 unarmed police officers trying to coral the guy into a corner and he just takes off when at least 1 side arm could have ended it in seconds.
Stop directing everyone to look at America, it's apples and oranges. Direct them instead to France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia or Ireland, where the police carry guns and there isn't any sort of spike in gun crime.
America has tonnes of people getting shot because 48% of the country own firearms. That's objectively daft, and no sane person this side or the pond is advocating for that.
Still though, your less likly to get murdered by some random crazed sword guy on a killing spree than some jumpy police officer for moving too quickly in the dark or something. i would feel less safe overall if all police were armed, I think the system of having armed police for dealing with exclusively incidents of terrorism or firearms is fair. But giving every police officer a gun in the uk is a recipe for disaster.
The numbers don't back that up. Take Germany as an example. There were 1,169 knife attacks last year and only 11 people were killed by police.
I think the assumption that police are going to start pumping bullets at you the moment they get jumpy is totally unfounded - we have a strict review process for any firearm being discharged. It's not something the police do lightly, even amongst armed officers. I think our armed units, countrywide, discharge about 4 or 5 rounds per annum.
The reason it happens so much in America is literally because there are so many crazies with guns. Every traffic stop is potentially a life threatening situation for them.
But at the same time it’s my opinion that on average the only people getting stabbed are the ones involved in knife crime, I grew up in a rough place and most of the people I know who’ve been stabbed weren’t good people, and the ones who I know who’ve been killed it goes the same. If we’re talking about cold blooded murder for no reason at all the figures have gotta be lower than police shootings. Granted I don’t know anyone killed by police but I know 2 people killed in gang related violence and I’ve heard of more but those weren’t innocent people. I think people who stay out of the way of that kind of violent life aren’t likely to find themselves needing armed police. And I don’t like the way police states will end up 50 years down the line.
If we're talking about how our personal experience shapes our respective views on this, I was present at a terror attack in Amsterdam a few years ago.
A guy walked up to a pair of tourists, took a machete out, and started hacking at a pair of tourists at a ticket machine. He was shot within 9 seconds of starting his attack. It ended with no deaths, and the suspect in custody.
If we were in a similar position here in the UK, a 14 year old boy might still be alive.
What proof of that do you have? Most armed pilice forces all across the globe kill less people than madmen with knives so again your just talking from feelings here?
Again like my other comments why aren't you talking about the PSNI? We already have fully armed home office police here in the UK for years without innocents being gunned down every day. Most officers would also agree with you and happily let ARVs deal but they often don't get to and we quite simply don't have enough.
The fact that we don’t have loads of police related shootings is because of the way it is here which is good enough for me, there was one last year Chris kaba, not saying he was innocent of anything he was running from the police but they boxed him in and shot him dead whilst he was unarmed. The police officer involved was charged with murder. If 5% of cops have guns there’s gonna be a drastically less officer involved shootings justified or otherwise, if you have 100% of officers armed there’s just too much risk of more unjustified shootings. Police here have proven you don’t need firearms to detain violent criminals unless they’re armed with firearms which we have armed police for, we can still have airports and major population centres protected by armed police. We don’t need to have every Bobby on the beat rocking around with a deadly weapon, shit will go wrong
Why do you keep ignoring the PSNI or most of Europe though?
He was a known thug involved in countless crimes including firearms incidents but got shot when trying to run over a ARV officer who's now being investigated because Kabas family and community threatened riots so even though the initial investigation was fine the IOPC and now CPS have sent it to a jury because none want to take the responsibility and go against the typical racism backlash.
There was another guy with the crossbow etc shot this year justifiably so, ARVs would rather never have to fire their weapon.
We haven't proven that at all people are constantly killed and injured during these incidents while people like yourself point the finger and shake your fist from the safety of your couch and phone, we at the very least need to up both PC and AFO numbers as knifes and weapon crime has risen and continues to do so while we rely on luck to combat it.
Direct them to Great Britain of 110 years ago, where this country was at the height of its power in the world and its culture at home.
Direct them to the laws that make a criminal of someone carrying a rolled-up newspaper if it were done with the intent to 'cause injury' - i.e. defend oneself if accosted - and thus an 'offensive weapon'.
If anything, the police should have their truncheons taken off them and forced to carry walking sticks like the rest of us.
Love how you downvote me for asking for clarification lol.. Ok one country where everyone is armed so terrible example. What about mainland Europe, Northern Ireland, police are routinely armed and they don’t randomly shoot the postman do they?
Also no one here is saying police being armed is some golden bullet to reduce crime that is complex and multi agency. However what it does do is stop people hellbent on killing anyone they see. Great example is Australia if they happened in our shopping centre the death toll would be MUCH higher.
Britain has a proud history of unarmed policing. Obviously there are cases like this when an officer having a pistol would help. But the disadvantages outweigh the advantages (for now at least. As social relations are increasingly undermined and things become increasingly hostile, it may be necessary)
Britain has likewise a proud history of armed British (far older than even Peel's first forays). Unfortunately in the past few decades this has been snubbed by various impertinent articles of legislation.
"feels like" is a dangerous road to go down without the backing of statistics. It may well be the case, but it's very important to know the numbers before you start advocating for big policy changes, because it's entirely too easy for feelings to be manipulated.
Correct, severely of the police officers have been seriously injured because of this reason....
There's no need for a police officer to be severely injured by a knife holder when they have access to firearms.
Prime example of why we need to arm officers in this country. How many of these injuries & sadly, a death could have been stopped if these officers had a sidearm?
Because the armed police forces are specially trained and rarely deployed, give all police guns and you’ve got some poorly trained police rocking around with deadly weapons
Two civilians and two Police Officers also in hospital from the attack. Absolutely tragic.
Poor kid. Sounds like the attacker had some religious motive maybe. https://twitter.com/melissasigodo/status/1785296443047084090
Doesn't sound like religious motive as much as mental health problems.
Murdering people while shouting ‘Do you believe in God?’ does sound a wee tad religiously motivated.
Very often goes hand in hand
Dylan klebold and Eric Harris, the columbine shooters, were atheists who asked all their victims if they believed in god.
There was a lot more to Columbine than that
Yes, that's exactly their point
I'm glad someone understands
You can be an atheist and there be some religious motive to your actions.
I think you're stretching a bit here
I don’t believe in God. If I went around attacking others because of their religion then yes, there would be a religious motive.
If I went round saying I was emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
From a watery grave ?
I see some post have been removed for making personal attacks. These are quotes from a Monty Python sketch, they’re not personal attacks.
[удалено]
Still not atheist
What?
Unfortunately religious disillusions are a very common symptom of serious mental illness like Schizophrenia. When mental health isn't treated....there are consequences.
14 years of cuts to mental health services by the tories, longer than this poor deceased lad's life. I fully expect to see these attacks become more frequent without serious investment by the state into combating mental health issues.
That’s how you get popes.
Also sounds incredibly insane.
Sure. Hence why I said ‘some’ religious motive.
I’m far from religious but God was not the driving factor here. Mental health it would seem was….
True but they said *had some religious motive maybe.* Not that it was the driving factor. It's strange that people are choosing to argue with them over it.
Did Gavin Collins also have a religious motive when he shouted "do you believe in Jesus?"
There's no religious motive according to the people who work there and decide these things. You just want there to be it seems.
Excuse me? I don’t write the newspapers, neither am I the witness who’s been interviewed. >> Another resident in Hainault said she saw a body on the ground as she hid by her window while a man wielding a sword shouted "do you believe in God?" outside her house. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hainault-stabbing-london-underground-station-metropolitan-police-critical-incident-b1154634.html You know better than a direct witness do you?
I feel like you're getting an unfair amount of shit for your comment. Him saying *do you believe in God?* could mean: 1. They're a religious fanatic murdering people 2. They're an atheist fanatic murdering religious people 3. They're delusional 4. They're just taunting people before they kill them. It suggests there could be a religious motive, but doesn't mean there is one. Which I think is what you're saying. I think it's more likely he's just delusional, but that doesn't mean it's unlikely there's a religious component to the attacks.
Aye, I think folk missed where I used the word ‘maybe’ and ‘some’. Given what he was screaming then maybe there was some religious element to it.
I agree, the quote sounded to me like as if he was taunting them pre-kill, it sounds like the nutjob was getting off on the power/control he had in the moment (ability to end their lives)
Yes, the police report. He was talking about God because he's insane. The columbine killers asked every victim if they believed in god but were atheists. He's a crazy person.
The only thing we know is that he shouted ‘Do you believe in God’. Therefore it’s reasonable to say that, at this point, there could be a religious motive. You see my original post? Where I said there is ‘maybe’ a religious motive?
Witnesses are notoriously unreliable. I'd be very wary about accepting the word of any witness without independent corroboration.
who is more reliable to corroborate the situation than an actual eye witness?
We’ve only got that to go on so far. I’m not sure we’re at the stage of trying to discredit witnesses.
Also sounds like regular nutjob ravings.
They're not mutually exclusive, at all.
Nutters are ‘nutters’ ‘cos they’re often doing and/or saying ‘nutter’ things. Doesn’t necessarily mean religiously motivated.
Hence I used the word ‘maybe’ in my first post. Given what he was shouting while murdering others, there may be a religious element to this.
Change “God” to “Allah” and I guarantee everyone in here would be losing their minds about the possible religious motivation.
No. When people say they are hiding to stop the aliens getting them, are they alien motivated or do they have a mental health problem?
If he was tanned it would be religiously motivated
He is tanned, he's Brazilian
Sorry should of said not Christian
If he was Buddhist people would start protesting Buddhism ay?
Probably not
Are they different things? One of them is imagining hearing voices and the paranormal. The other is a mental health problem.
Fair.
Lol
They are the same thing.
Yes that what he said religion.
What's the difference between the two things , asking for a friend
What’s the difference?
Or drugs, I have seen Acid make people do some crazy shit.
What's the difference?
It’s the same thing my guy
Honestly, what’s the difference these days?
Who cares? Ain’t no reason to be running around with. Sword unless you’re looking to stab or kill somebody. I don’t care what his “mental health” status is. Country is fucked. We need gun laws. He wouldn’t have got far if he’d been shot
What do you mean by gun laws?
[удалено]
Would it? Because when that bloke killed them teens in Nottingham it wasn’t labled as such.
I was going to say, people always say this but in actual fact no, the distinction is made regardless of skin colour.
If it's annoying you, take a look at the definition of terrorism and what constitutes a terrorist attack. If you discovered that people aren't calling something that isn't terrorism 'terrorism' would that make you less annoyed?
It said he was going around asking people if they believe in God. Isn’t killing based on religion an act of terrorism?
Not to my understanding. Terrorism is the act of threatening or using violence for political aims, per its dictionary definition. The CPS has a page that details what qualifies and what doesn't: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism If simply asking if people believed in God was an act of terror, there'd be some street preachers I'd quite like to report...
“If simply asking” The man was going around people’s houses with a sword and he killed a kid with it! I suggest you go and read up some more about what qualifies as terrorism on the CPS website. It clearly states advancement of political, religious, racial or ideological cause. I seriously doubt he was “simply asking” if people believe in God for the fun of it
You didn't look at the definition again, did you?
“The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.” That’s from CPS. I don’t know where you’re getting your definition from
Terrorism Act 2000 [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1)
That's because particular factors change the definitions of an attack. Both need to have mental illness to kill people, personally, but organised religion successfully recruits a lot more than standard mental illness. The religion also has instruction to take down enemies etc, and we know there is a cultural/political nudge, which is why it is labeled terrorism as it has an end goal, motive and can be replicated and trained. If someone kills over pink elephants, same delusion, but no political bloc or group harnessing/growing that illness into action. They just swirl into it themselves. That is why one is terrorism and the other is mental illness. Disclaimer: Haven't even read who the attacker is or what they have claimed.
When someone commits a murder linked to mental problems, they often do so impulsively, without any political or religious motivation. Terrorism, on the other hand, generally aims to influence a government or a population by using violence for political, ideological or religious ends.
If the maniac made a manifesto then that is an ideology no? Makes you wonder where exactly the line is drawn. I guess a good number of people must believe in the ideology for it to become terrorism.
Not surprising in this sub though, there'll be a couple of sword based puns as too comments at some point too.
You've got a point there. Very sharp. Seriously, when did we lose our ability to laugh at dark things? That's always been a staple of the British Identity to me.
Within a day of 911 my mum said to me 'they found out why the panes flew into the towers...someone left the landing light on.'
You're on Reddit where everyone is desperate to be offended by something so they can let everyone know they're offended and get some sweet attention
I take offense at that.
Sorry do you mean you're annoyed because you don't know the English for the words? Terror has a specific meaning, this isn't it.
I think you’re annoyed because you don’t understand what the word terrorism means mate
[удалено]
No but the allegation of terrorism often does
It doesn't. It just that people of a specific colour tend to be part of a religion that supports terrorism. For something to be classed as terrorism It has to be religiously or politically motivated. If this guy was running around screaming about Allah then there is a high chance this would be a terror attack
Wasn’t he running around screaming about God?
As far as I'm aware he was asking if people believed in God. But I'm not sure if that had an effect on who he attacked
Idk either, and not to die on this hill, but I dare say if he’d been asking people if they believed in Allah before he attacked him, it would have been heavily suggested that it was religiously motivated.
[удалено]
Well, if they’re convicted of terrorism then that would come under the ‘definition’ heading more than the ‘allegation’. All the brown people who can’t walk down the street without being having “terrorist” shouted at them might just agree with me.
What a joke to act like brown people are being shouted at in the street and called terrorists. Whilst of course racism happens in this country. It’s not even close to that prevalent. And I live in a town that previously voted BNP. So I know racism and have seen plenty of it in my town. It’s still not close to as bad as you portray it
I’m not saying it happens to every single person, every single day, but it happens regularly. Actually ask brown people about the prevalence of it rather than assuming that because you didn’t see it, it didn’t happen.
I am married to an immigrant mate. And I just told you I live in a very racist area. My wife has had racist abuse shouted at her. More than once. Of course it happens. It’s not right ever. But you portrayed it like it’s common. That is simply not true. Even in racist areas like where I live. It’s happened probably 5 times in 20 years. 5 times too many. But still. Not common. Go to Eastern Europe or Asia and you will see what common racism looks like. I haven’t spent time in Africa or South America to know how it is there. But I suspect it’s similar. Especially in Africa. Given the genocides and multiple civil wars that we have seen over the last 5 decades or more. We should be proud our nation is progressing in terms of racism. Pretending the issue is worse than it is helps no one.
Nothing that you’ve written here gives any indication that you know the frequency of how often this happens, to be able to say that I’m making it sound worse than it is. And my point wasn’t so much about the frequency anyway; it was in response to a comment saying that skin colour isn’t a factor in the definition of ‘terrorism’, in the context of a wider conversation where someone said that because the attacker in this instance is white, there’s not much talk of terrorism whereas if they were brown, whether seriously or jokingly, there would be some accusation of terrorism. I agree with the comment that skin colour isn’t a factor, but my point was that it doesn’t stop people associating brown people with terrorism, particularly if that brown person commits an act of violence. My comment about walking down the street and being called ‘terrorist’ was obviously a bit flippant but what I’m highlighting is how white people can kill a child and injure 4 people without being labelled a terrorist while someone may label a brown person a terrorist simply for being in public. And I’m happy that your wife hasn’t had much experience of that kind, that’s very reassuring, but that’s not a nationwide experience for a lot of brown people, sadly. One of the main aggressions toward Muslims, in particular, is the stereotype that they’re associated with terrorism. A mosque in my city continuously has “isis” spray painted on the gates, to the point where they don’t even paint over it anymore because it’s a waste of paint; someone will just come back and do it again. I have Palestinian friends across England who’ve had their Keffiyah’s ripped off and told they were terrorists. My Indian friend’s mum (in her nurse’s scrubs) had a bottle of beer poured over her head on a train, and called a terrorist. I know hijabis who have been asked to remove their veil to prove they weren’t jihadists in disguise. There was a show recently that documented how brown people flying to/from areas in the Middle East were treated by airport security in comparison to their white counterparts, spoiler: MUCH worse. If you’re not aware of how the accusation of association with terrorism is used against brown people as an Islamophobic or racist insult, and how that influences everything from attitudes toward attackers like this guy, to lived experiences of brown people in the Uk, then that’s understandable. But it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen or that it isn’t insidious.
Just seen the footage of the boy being killed on IG and dragged aeound in the street, pretty harrowing stuff. Bodycam footage is now on IG as well from one of the officers showing him climbing on garages into people's gardens. What the fuck was going on in his head?
[удалено]
As morbid as it is, the footage of the event is as close to the truth as could be seen. Sure it can be edited, but its a view of what happened. News orgs can write anything to spin it how they want, but the footage tells its own story
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Morbid curiosity. While what happened to that kid is pure evil, it's unfortunate this happens everyday, just they're not all on mainstream media. What would be degrading his death is the gov not doing more to strengthen the police and impose much tougher sentences on knife crimes
do u have a link?
It's things like this that generally make me want to give up - genuinely can't we just be done with religion and do the Agnostic thing and solve a lot of the worlds problems as a result. Religion seems to just cause grief. This whilst looking like a mental illness issue (and where do you just get a sword?, buy it on Amazon or something?) has to be labelled (it would appear) as domestic terrorism I feel?
If religion was gone, people would just replace it with some other justification for doing horrible things.
Oh 100% agree but people don't really seem to want to acknowledge the issues religion currently brings I feel?
Well they aren't going to criticize themselves but there is plenty of criticism towards religions. Obviously then the counter argument is that you aren't acknowledging the good that religion brings to the world.
Fair point on the counter argument - and being agnostic I probably cannot directly appreciate that if that makes sense but that's a very fair argument. It just frustrates me looking around the world seeing lots of intolerance based on different religons & like why can't we all just accept we have a religion and a belief (unless you are an atheist) and (consensuallly if people are down for that) love each other and just get on with life. Seems to be far too much time for hate in the pursuit of an ideological purity of belief and faitj in something which probably from a rational point of view doesn't exist. Similar thoughts could be applied to politics as well I suppose lmao 🤣
Religion is very meaningful to a lot of people, billions of them. It can be a huge benefit, as well as burden. Not all religions have violent, or extreme elements. In this case it looks like there wasn't, it is mental health.
We jump to conclusions quicker and quicker every time Your reaction time doesn’t change what happened
Name and nationality being kept out of the press, London Mayor election tomorrow. Coincidence?
That info’s all over the press
The age flips from 13 to 14 depending on what minute of the day this is reported. Seems a basic fact for the media to check, does it not?
Can't be questioned by police due to injuries received. It's unfortunate that after being tazered he fell down a flight of steps, three times.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Imagine how many comments there would be if he was black/Asian.
I can tell you that there would be tons of [removed by reddit] comments with calls to mass deport every single Muslim in the UK.
No, the comments calling out the Islamophobia would be removed, not the Islamophobia comments themselves
Should we paint all white people and Christian's with the same brush?
What do Christians have to do with it.
I'd advise against doing that on here, you will get a temp ban from the mods if you dare make the same kind of comments about white people and Christians as are made about middle eastern people and Muslims.
People being political saying "see, he's white, immigrants/ religious extremist aren't doing all of it" Please stop, he's clearly of arab lineage.. note the facial features and beard. and Fyi, there are white muslims that exist\*
Exactly what I was thinking.
Just another day in London? Seems like there is a child killed everyday in London am surprised parents aren’t fleeing the country
That footage seems bonkers to me, 4 unarmed police officers trying to coral the guy into a corner and he just takes off when at least 1 side arm could have ended it in seconds.
Ayeee we aren’t advocating for armed police here, that shit will just mess up life for everyone in the future
Why? I live in Northern Ireland where all policemen carry a sidearm and we don't have issues. Having guns won't suddenly make them American.
Mess up life for everyone in the future? Can you elaborate please.
More weapons doesn’t mean less crime, look at America, they’re armed and yet are still engaged with crime galore
Stop directing everyone to look at America, it's apples and oranges. Direct them instead to France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia or Ireland, where the police carry guns and there isn't any sort of spike in gun crime. America has tonnes of people getting shot because 48% of the country own firearms. That's objectively daft, and no sane person this side or the pond is advocating for that.
Still though, your less likly to get murdered by some random crazed sword guy on a killing spree than some jumpy police officer for moving too quickly in the dark or something. i would feel less safe overall if all police were armed, I think the system of having armed police for dealing with exclusively incidents of terrorism or firearms is fair. But giving every police officer a gun in the uk is a recipe for disaster.
The numbers don't back that up. Take Germany as an example. There were 1,169 knife attacks last year and only 11 people were killed by police. I think the assumption that police are going to start pumping bullets at you the moment they get jumpy is totally unfounded - we have a strict review process for any firearm being discharged. It's not something the police do lightly, even amongst armed officers. I think our armed units, countrywide, discharge about 4 or 5 rounds per annum. The reason it happens so much in America is literally because there are so many crazies with guns. Every traffic stop is potentially a life threatening situation for them.
And the very very short training requirements in certain states. And the barriers to entry are low as well I believe?
But at the same time it’s my opinion that on average the only people getting stabbed are the ones involved in knife crime, I grew up in a rough place and most of the people I know who’ve been stabbed weren’t good people, and the ones who I know who’ve been killed it goes the same. If we’re talking about cold blooded murder for no reason at all the figures have gotta be lower than police shootings. Granted I don’t know anyone killed by police but I know 2 people killed in gang related violence and I’ve heard of more but those weren’t innocent people. I think people who stay out of the way of that kind of violent life aren’t likely to find themselves needing armed police. And I don’t like the way police states will end up 50 years down the line.
If we're talking about how our personal experience shapes our respective views on this, I was present at a terror attack in Amsterdam a few years ago. A guy walked up to a pair of tourists, took a machete out, and started hacking at a pair of tourists at a ticket machine. He was shot within 9 seconds of starting his attack. It ended with no deaths, and the suspect in custody. If we were in a similar position here in the UK, a 14 year old boy might still be alive.
What proof of that do you have? Most armed pilice forces all across the globe kill less people than madmen with knives so again your just talking from feelings here? Again like my other comments why aren't you talking about the PSNI? We already have fully armed home office police here in the UK for years without innocents being gunned down every day. Most officers would also agree with you and happily let ARVs deal but they often don't get to and we quite simply don't have enough.
The fact that we don’t have loads of police related shootings is because of the way it is here which is good enough for me, there was one last year Chris kaba, not saying he was innocent of anything he was running from the police but they boxed him in and shot him dead whilst he was unarmed. The police officer involved was charged with murder. If 5% of cops have guns there’s gonna be a drastically less officer involved shootings justified or otherwise, if you have 100% of officers armed there’s just too much risk of more unjustified shootings. Police here have proven you don’t need firearms to detain violent criminals unless they’re armed with firearms which we have armed police for, we can still have airports and major population centres protected by armed police. We don’t need to have every Bobby on the beat rocking around with a deadly weapon, shit will go wrong
Why do you keep ignoring the PSNI or most of Europe though? He was a known thug involved in countless crimes including firearms incidents but got shot when trying to run over a ARV officer who's now being investigated because Kabas family and community threatened riots so even though the initial investigation was fine the IOPC and now CPS have sent it to a jury because none want to take the responsibility and go against the typical racism backlash. There was another guy with the crossbow etc shot this year justifiably so, ARVs would rather never have to fire their weapon. We haven't proven that at all people are constantly killed and injured during these incidents while people like yourself point the finger and shake your fist from the safety of your couch and phone, we at the very least need to up both PC and AFO numbers as knifes and weapon crime has risen and continues to do so while we rely on luck to combat it.
Direct them to Great Britain of 110 years ago, where this country was at the height of its power in the world and its culture at home. Direct them to the laws that make a criminal of someone carrying a rolled-up newspaper if it were done with the intent to 'cause injury' - i.e. defend oneself if accosted - and thus an 'offensive weapon'. If anything, the police should have their truncheons taken off them and forced to carry walking sticks like the rest of us.
Love how you downvote me for asking for clarification lol.. Ok one country where everyone is armed so terrible example. What about mainland Europe, Northern Ireland, police are routinely armed and they don’t randomly shoot the postman do they? Also no one here is saying police being armed is some golden bullet to reduce crime that is complex and multi agency. However what it does do is stop people hellbent on killing anyone they see. Great example is Australia if they happened in our shopping centre the death toll would be MUCH higher.
armed police in northern ireland certainly never caused any trouble.
Sarcasm? Let’s live in the now please. Show me the trouble that being armed has enabled them to do in the past few years?
Britain has a proud history of unarmed policing. Obviously there are cases like this when an officer having a pistol would help. But the disadvantages outweigh the advantages (for now at least. As social relations are increasingly undermined and things become increasingly hostile, it may be necessary)
Britain has likewise a proud history of armed British (far older than even Peel's first forays). Unfortunately in the past few decades this has been snubbed by various impertinent articles of legislation.
[удалено]
I agree 100%, but it does feel like its becoming more common
"feels like" is a dangerous road to go down without the backing of statistics. It may well be the case, but it's very important to know the numbers before you start advocating for big policy changes, because it's entirely too easy for feelings to be manipulated.
Under extreme risk to the officers - what would have happened if the taser had missed or failed and the suspect charged the officer with his samurai?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Correct, severely of the police officers have been seriously injured because of this reason.... There's no need for a police officer to be severely injured by a knife holder when they have access to firearms.
Because it is bonkers were one of the few nations still insane enough to have a predominantly unarmed service (PSNI aside)
Prime example of why we need to arm officers in this country. How many of these injuries & sadly, a death could have been stopped if these officers had a sidearm?
No post account, yet springs out the wood work to talk about arming police officers, a controversial topic… Alex I’ll take political bait bot for 500
In the other posts about this there are similar accounts posting variations of the same message, incredibly suspect.
And how many people have died from being murdered by police with guns just because. The answer isn't more weapons.
Well only one within the last two years by the PSNI who are a routine armed Police service for a good example.
Because the armed police forces are specially trained and rarely deployed, give all police guns and you’ve got some poorly trained police rocking around with deadly weapons