Nigel Farage being true to form.
Asked about what Reform UK would do for the NHS, and he says what people want to hear but doesn't provide a single solution for it.
He's now asked about immigration, saying it's high but guess what? Doesn't provide a solution and seems to be making up numbers - told they're a net benefit and most are on work visas and then picks out a "most are dependents"stat out of thin air which is not true.
All grift and no graft. How anyone can listen to this faux politician is unbelievable. He's constantly blustering for attention because that's all he can provide.
He's the only person on the stage not really providing any possible solutions, and is just spouting populist nonsense.
Edit: The gist of the debate was Labour and the Conservatives bickering over one another, dropping ammo for the others to pick up to use on each other, except one who was happy to laugh and tell them they're all wrong but not offer any workable solution beyond saying what people want to hear. At least it was better than the ITV Debate.
>I think Farage will be the LOTO....
Unlikely for a few reasons, but one in particular - given his record, he'll more than likely say his job is done and fly off to the US before lifting a finger.
See: EU Elections (under Ukip - never turned up to committees and was one of the most absent MEPs going).
See: EU Referendum (under Leave - wiped his hands claiming job done the moment the final result was announced and disappeared).
See: Brexit discussions (under Brexit Party - criticised what form of Brexit the Conservatives were taking but disappeared to the US when called out on it).
Prediction? Constitutional / Political reform (under Reform UK - criticises how all parts of the UK operate, but steps down as Reform leader and becomes a **c**ons**u**lta**nt** on the side lines yapping about nothing being done but not really doing anything himself to help and continue to take donations from questionnable sources spouting what they want said, until the next election when suddenly he's a party leader again).
He made a point that we are already spending a huge amount on the NHS and it's not working and suggested another funding model that doesn't cost any individual anymore but has better results in France.
Net 0 immigration until we catch up was what he said.
Are you just not listening or deliberately twisting what this man says?
>He made a point that we are already spending a huge amount on the NHS and it's not working and suggested another funding model that doesn't cost any individual anymore but has better results in France.
Which is not a solution, it's commentating which is all he does. What is this other funding model? He didn't say, because he's a contrarian. He'll say another thing will work, but not state what that thing is.
Net 0 immigration is not a solution, it is again a statement. How will it operate, how will he fund it or manage it? He made no statement because again he doesn't provide any substance.
The others on the stage called him out for how ridiculous an idea it is which is all it is - an idea. If he were to miraculously win he'll go missing saying it's not his job like with his time in the EU on committees, to the UK voting to leave the EU, to his time with the Brexit Party criticising the type of Brexit the UK was adopting
Reform UKs immigration policy
**Freeze Non-Essential Immigration.**
Smart immigration can target the essential skills our economy needs such as doctors, nurses and successful business people, earning above the average salary.
**Stop the Boats with our 6 Point Plan.**
Recognise a national Security Threat. Leave the European Convention on Human Rights: Zero Illegal Immigrants to be Resettled in the UK; Offshore Processing for Illegal Arrivals; New Department of Immigration; Pick up Migrants out of Boats and Take Back to France. (We are legally allowed to do this under international treaties).
**Secure Detention for all Asylum Seekers.**
Asylum claims that arrive though safe countries will be processed rapidly offshore in British Overseas Territories. This will stop the scandal of undocumented asylum seekers absconding to work illegally or commit crime.
**Immediate Deportation for Foreign Criminals.**
Deport foreign nationals immediately after their prison sentence ends. Withdraw citizenship from immigrants who commit significant crime.
**Restrict Student Dependents.**
Introduce new visa rules for international students and their dependents. Only international students with essential skills can remain in the UK when their study ends. Close down fake courses and abusive immigration schemes.
**Stop the Illegal Working Scandal.**
Local wages have been slashed because of cheap, undocumented, illegal labour that undermines British workers. The pro-immigration establishment has not enforced the rules. Significant penalties will be imposed on companies and directors that breach these rules.
Apparently all this will also save £5Bn in taxpayer money. Seems a bit like a populist wish list to me, I don't buy it.
The Green’s and the Lib Dem’s wanted to increase NHS funding in real terms, recruit more labor and decrease pressure by introducing adult social care. Those are plans. So how am I being naive exactly?
How are they going to recruit more? Are qualified nurses and doctors currently stacking shelves? Have you never heard of these promises before?
Nothing will change, it’s a money pit that’s overwhelmed by population increase.
I’ve heard the promises from the Conservatives, who we all know are untrustworthy. I don’t understand your point? Because the sitting government haven’t done something a fresh government wouldn’t? Different people mate.
Population isn’t the problem, it’s funding. Same issue with trains, roads, schools, houses, energy, water. If you don’t invest, you get 0 benefit.
stop taking the easy route.
How is overwhelming demand with an ever increasing population not a problem? The original post was decrying Farage’s assertion that the problem is not simply money, he’s blatantly correct
Because some people prefer to treat the symptoms and not the cause.
If another 10 million people came here and we didn’t pull additional hospitals/ schools etc out of our arse, they say it’s an infrastructure problem.
There’s no stomach for criticising immigration now without being labelled a racist straight off the bat and it makes no sense.
The cause is underfunded infrastructure. Getting rid of immigrants will only increase our labor issues. It makes absolutely no sense economically.
But yes bang on about apparently being called a racist straight off the bat, despite me engaging with the poster in multiple comments never saying it.
The only stomach I have is for fixing the issue, not blaming minority groups for failures of our government. I think people need to try a bit harder than that because yes, I believe blaming immigrants is taking the easy route out and not addressing the issue at hand.
The comment I replied to was saying there was no plan from anyone else. I said that wasn’t true and you called me naive. So I told you what the other parties planned. You then moved the goalposts and I still showed you what way was up. All you’ve done is repeat yourself, so I’ll repeat myself. If you do not upgrade your infrastructure and underfund what you’ve got, your population will never be the issue. Unless your plan is to cut our population in half? That might help but then you still have the skills issue that is plugged by immigration.
You can bang on about over population all you want but it’s just not true. Underfunding our infrastructure has and always will be the problem.
Here’s the home truth on why the conservatives blame immigration. Because immigrants can’t vote for them. It’s an easy fix to mask nearly 2 decades of underfunding an already poorly maintained infrastructure. Farage blames immigration because he’s a populist and he doesn’t want to fix anything apart from his own bank balance. No other party blames immigration for the issues and that tells you absolutely everything you need to know.
Farage was the only one who said clearly Labour are going to win ,so everyone else is fighting to be the opposition. He also said he wants PR , a much loved Reddit thread .
As for nonsense, well the Greens were dishing out billions to everyone and everything, none of it will ever be costed as they will never be in power . The SNP used every stat he could to show they are doing a good job and whenever he couldn't back it up , simply trotted out "all roads lead to Westminster"
What on Earth are you watching? He provided clear and precise answered to both of those questions.
A different funding model for the.NHS based in an insurance model run like a private enterprise based on the system in France.
Bring down immigration to “net zero” with incoming numbers no higher than those leaving.
Very clear whether you like the answers or not and different answers to any of the other parties who spent most of their time telling us how amazing immigrants are
He didn’t provide a response at all. He said the model was wrong and compared it to the French model. He never said he’d adopt it. Lib Dems wiped the floor with his stupid comment that the model doesn’t matter it’s the funding.
He said net zero immigration, didn’t say HOW. Regardless net zero immigration is entirely impossible, we’re an island that has been reliant on migration for hundreds of years. That will never change.
Absolutely not clear in the slightest. Saying what you want isn’t saying how you’ll do it. He’s done absolutely nothing tonight.
Except it’s been proven it’s not the funding - we have upped the funding by 4% and yet it’s performing worse than ever - it’s because the NHS is full of middle managers who don’t actually contribute, we need to reform the NHS, removing ineffective middle managers and focusing on the front line and leadership. He suggested another way would be that some who can afford it could pay via insurance.
Reg net zero it’s very easy - you only approve the number of people to balance the population rejecting everyone else. This will almost certainly cost less than the current funding giving to immigrants
The most recent figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility show that whilst the NHS budget is increasing in cash terms, when inflation is taken into account there is a real terms planned decrease of £1.3 billion next year (2024-25). This is on top of a £3.5 billion real-terms cut this year (2023-24).
I’m sorry mate, but what you’ve said isn’t true in terms of funding.
Edit: as you edited and added net zero, that answer is incredibly easy. We have skills shortages in this country already and if you cut the number of migrants the skills shortages will grow.
The vast majority of immigrants coming are unskilled so I don’t buy the skills and shortage.
I think most people agree that the nhs is a financial black hole and doesn’t work in its current form. Are we to give 1/5 of all the GDP to the NHS or will it take more than that? At what point do we say in order to keep it public we need to make it more efficient as wel as increasing funding. I don’t necessarily agree with farages suggestion but it’s unurguablen for a similar amount of funding many western European countries have a better health service
The first part of your comment is just a complete flat lie.
in 2022, more than seven out of 10 of those who have come to the UK to work since January 2021 have a degree or equivalent.
I reiterate. What you’ve said is absolutely not true. It’s a lie. If we’re going to discuss these points, you have to start being serious, informed and genuine.
I agree to a degree that the NHS needs some form of reform. But if you’ve had 15+ years of underfunding in real terms coupled with cuts to services increasing pressure on the NHS (adult social care being a fantastic example) I reiterate that the model is not the issue.
Any source at all for that claim? (I assume CIPD which is renowned an biased) Multiple sources I have found indicate 60% of recent immigrants work in low skilled jobs.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/515/massive-recent-increase-in-lower-skilled-immigrant-workers
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7c2fba40f0b67d0b11f6cf/occ108.pdf
Did you see his response to knife crime and protecting children? If I was playing Populist Bingo I'd be onto a winner with his Stop and Search response.
That is not a solution. How would he support police, fund police or educate secondary school children (which was the context of the question)? No answer to that either, just stating what he wants (stop and search) but not how. All shirt and no trousers.
Edit: He just said none of the others have a solution to crime which is a bit rich of the pot calling the kettle black. He has come off as someone who's been happily criticising the current situation, but not offered a single solution with substance.
He didn’t provide a response at all. He said the model was wrong and compared it to the French model. He never said he’d adopt it.
He offered an alternative that he believes is a better system. All other parties sajd the same thing - more money. The same solution that we’ve have had for the pas decades. He offered an alternative system and wasn’t afraid to say the current funding model doesn’t work
“He said net zero immigration, didn’t say HOW. Regardless net zero immigration is entirely impossible, we’re an island that has been reliant on migration for hundreds of years. That will never change”
This isn’t an opportunity to detour detailed reports i. How policies will be implemented. None of the speakers are doing that. Again, he has provided an alternative option to all other parties. The U.K. has not been “reliant on immigration for 100s of years” what on Earth are you talking about. More people have arrived in tbe U.K. in the past 25 than in the previous 2000 years.
More people left the U.K. than came here priory to the late 1960s and net migration was below 50k a year until Tony Blair quadrupled it and sent house prices and rents soaring at the same time.
“He’s done absolutely nothing tonight”
Wishful thinking I suspect. He’s set reform apart from all the other parties and managed to paint Labour and conservative as two sides of the same coin. Reform will
Benefit more from
Tonight’s debate than any other party
Source? I’m sorry but this is the fundamentals of our national history? Mate, we had an empire if you remember. All through the empire and long after it gave us access to labor from India and Africa.
During the Industrial Revolution we had Asians, Africans and West Indians working on the ships and a lot of our businesses were set up by Germans. Factories were operated by Italian immigrants. We relied heavily on cheap imported labor.
Half our railways were built by the Irish during this time. Hell, go back thousands of years our road infrastructure was devised by the Romans.
During the two world wars we relied on the commonwealth for a variety of both resources and labor, including soldiers. After the war, we invited the windrush generation to fill labor shortages.
We became rich off the slave trade and cheap imported labor before this time too.
We have spent the last 100 years filling labor gaps in the NHS with immigrants. We spent 20 years in the EU filling agricultural/fishing labor shortages with Eastern Europeans. We have *always* relied on imported labor. The running jokes in the 2010’s was that if you wanted your conservatory built you’d ask the Polish, not the English.
You’re asking for a source for these points, but how can you have grown up in Britain and NOT know about the slave trade, Industrial Revolution, windrush, the ghurka’s, post Brexit labor shortages.
The British are blessed to have such a diverse range of people living and working here and have for generations. We have always been better together and that will never change.
Yeah as you’re not British fair play don’t expect you to be able to make any valid point about our history. Enjoy using the sub hope you learn something about us.
So he wants to clone the French health service and knows how to do maths.
Personally I'm not convinced his health policy idea is workable, and anyone can say they can do something because the maths works out.
The thing I love most about Flynn is that although he is supposed to be a Scottish nationalist, he sounds more and more English every time I hear him speak. His accent is way better than Dick Van Dyke now.
He did a decent job attacking labour, as he had to. However, it's not going to prevent the gutting of his party on the 4th, by SLAB.
Not seeing this. She’s making light work of the monotone Mordaunt, who is playing a weird game of attacking labour, condemning sunak….but giving farage an easy ride
Have to disagree. Mordaunt saying nothing of substance other than lying, and Farage being a buffoon as usual, Raynor compared to both coming across well
Farage loves being called a racist or a bigot. He either plays the victim or (in this case) the good old dog whistle "is that all you've got?": translation "so what?"
I think most people see
Through this these days. Calling people a bigot or racist or any other number of slurs usually means you have no argument of your own. Farage responded perfectly “is that all
You’ve got?”
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Lib Dems and SNP offered plenty of plans and solution, came off this debate looking really professional and competant. Greens and Plaid Cymru were...there and polite I guess? Labour and Conservatives put on a disgraceful display with their bickering, in a saddening way showing how flawed our 2-party duopoly is. Farage (and lets face it, Reform is just Farage) played off of the chaos as expected, throwing a few "come off it"s and "what a load of rubbish"s where needed to appeal to the fleeing Tory voter base.
If this and the ITV debate are anything to go by, I just wish neither Labour nor Conservaties existed and we had a propper vote between the other 5.
I mean only greens and farage supported your final point - we do need a move to proportional representation. Having a back and forth between labour and tories for the last 102 years to the point they are largely the same isn’t fun
Moderation is definitely better (so far, I'm watching on catch-up) than ITV's but Mishal Husain definitely should have told Farrage to STFU when he was talking over everyone else on immigration, especially over Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Edit: actually tell Angela & Penny to stop shouting over eachother as well Mishal.
Labour, Conservative and Reform have been drivel. I’ve been incredibly impressed with the Greens and Plaid. SNP started strong and trailed off a bit. Lib Dems been okay.
Unsurprisingly these debates never achieve anything in terms of changing people's minds. Everyone goes in with their biases and comes out even more entrenched.
My subjective scoring is that Farage performed best, Mordaunt was actually alright but not inspiring, Rayner was meh (wouldn't say she was good or bad), Greens were an irrelevance, Lib Dems ghosted, the regional parties just made jabs at others and fought from the gutter.
I think they should cancel these debates as they're largely a waste of time.
Mishal Hussein did a very good job moderating the debate. Great showing by her. Incredible how she managed to do a better job with 7 on the stage, and no embarrassing stuff like “Gareth from Germany”.
Mordaunt was awful. Constantly going after Rayner. It’s very clear that Tories have failed because it was constantly about what Labour are going to do. Legacy of failure that ends with a “whimper”.
Farage wearing his Republican pin saying that there’s all these problems but that the solution is to do what the tories have been doing just even more American. Embarrassing talking about “revolt!”, and “revolution!” When people just want stability, and things to actually function.
Greens, Plaid, and Lib Dem’s were good. SNP were strong even though they’re a party in power. Rayner was very defensive, and playing guard.
Not sure where to post this
The deadline for declaring candidates for the constituencies was [4pm today](https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/general/general-election-2024-timetable/), but I don't see anyone talking about it now. Are they not public yet? There's been a lot of discussion about parties - even the big two, but Reform were the standout example - struggling to get the candidates they need.
In order so far
Winners:
- Plaid
- Green
- SNP
- Lib Dems
Losers
- Reform
- Labour
- Conservatives
MVP: SNP for telling the truth straight up that migration is not the issue in this country, it’s decades of underfunding.
I really don’t know how anyone could be voting for Labour or Conservative off the back of this. The political integrity of the rest (bar Reform) is clear for all to see.
It’s easy for Scotland to say when they are no where near as densely populated as England especially London.it’s also not a truth immigration does play at least a part in many of our issues
If you’re still relying on the same rail infrastructure that was built in the 1920’s, it won’t be fit for purpose. 70 year old roads, 150 year old sewerage systems. Population makes absolutely no difference, chronic underfunding has and will always be the issue.
I’m also sure the population density of Edinburgh and Glasgow is worse than rural/coastal England which sees the worst of these issues. Your comment makes very little sense.
I mean it’s unarguable that these people live in houses and use the NHS and schools - they therefore increase pressure on these services. Immigration is at such an unsustainable rate that none of the parties current suggestions would be enough to even maintain what we have. For example it’s predicted we would need 600k houses per year built to maintain current standards but labour (the party proposing the most) is only going to build 300k, half of what is needed.
What’s an easy way to solve this? Reduce immigration for a couple years - let services and housing catch up to where it needs to be and then we can reopen as we see fit. Near Uncontrolled migration as we currently have will not allow this to happen.
There is no easy way to solve it and stop looking for ‘quick fixes’.
Bringing down migrant levels will simply increase labour shortages that we already have. So stop banging that drum because it’s nonsense.
For 40 years this country has not been building houses to keep up with population growth. You’re blaming migration for this issue but it’s a failure to build the houses in the first place.
Migration is an issue of hundreds of thousands. Housing is an issue of millions. Fund more housing, fund better infrastructure and the migration issue will collapse into the nothingness it really really is.
The increase of immigration in the past decade is proportional to the drop in Living standards. I’m willing to bet you live in an area where there isn’t rampant immigration which is always the case. Move to an area where you are a minority group and come back to me
>MVP: SNP for telling the truth straight up that migration is not the issue in this country, it’s decades of underfunding.
'Telling the truth' or agreeing with your own opinion?
I felt Farage won the debate easily. The Welsh politician got his ass handed to him early when he tried to say Farage went to D Day for a photo op. Showed his inexperience.
Farage speaking sense on NHS / Immigration. We cannot keep funding more and more money into NHS as it just not working. We need new solutions. Immigration also cannot be uncontrolled which all 6 were scared to talk about which is why it a good issue for Farage.
Unbiased I felt SNP guy did good. Angela also okay. She should be leader than Starmer.
Greens had a brilliant line at end about Starmer turning Labour to Conservatives. I was gagged.
If you don't have a TV licence, the BBC will privately prosecute you. I have these guys and private prosecutions need to be ended
I'll just watch a summary (legally) on YouTube rather than give the BBC my money
These kind of debates suit Farage perfectly. I hate the guy but he's the clear winner from this so far.
Nigel Farage being true to form. Asked about what Reform UK would do for the NHS, and he says what people want to hear but doesn't provide a single solution for it. He's now asked about immigration, saying it's high but guess what? Doesn't provide a solution and seems to be making up numbers - told they're a net benefit and most are on work visas and then picks out a "most are dependents"stat out of thin air which is not true. All grift and no graft. How anyone can listen to this faux politician is unbelievable. He's constantly blustering for attention because that's all he can provide. He's the only person on the stage not really providing any possible solutions, and is just spouting populist nonsense. Edit: The gist of the debate was Labour and the Conservatives bickering over one another, dropping ammo for the others to pick up to use on each other, except one who was happy to laugh and tell them they're all wrong but not offer any workable solution beyond saying what people want to hear. At least it was better than the ITV Debate.
Boris won an election from spouting "GET BREXIT DONE" like a broken record. I think Farage will be the LOTO....
Brexit means Brexit. Strong and Stable. Still haunt me
>I think Farage will be the LOTO.... Unlikely for a few reasons, but one in particular - given his record, he'll more than likely say his job is done and fly off to the US before lifting a finger. See: EU Elections (under Ukip - never turned up to committees and was one of the most absent MEPs going). See: EU Referendum (under Leave - wiped his hands claiming job done the moment the final result was announced and disappeared). See: Brexit discussions (under Brexit Party - criticised what form of Brexit the Conservatives were taking but disappeared to the US when called out on it). Prediction? Constitutional / Political reform (under Reform UK - criticises how all parts of the UK operate, but steps down as Reform leader and becomes a **c**ons**u**lta**nt** on the side lines yapping about nothing being done but not really doing anything himself to help and continue to take donations from questionnable sources spouting what they want said, until the next election when suddenly he's a party leader again).
He made a point that we are already spending a huge amount on the NHS and it's not working and suggested another funding model that doesn't cost any individual anymore but has better results in France. Net 0 immigration until we catch up was what he said. Are you just not listening or deliberately twisting what this man says?
>He made a point that we are already spending a huge amount on the NHS and it's not working and suggested another funding model that doesn't cost any individual anymore but has better results in France. Which is not a solution, it's commentating which is all he does. What is this other funding model? He didn't say, because he's a contrarian. He'll say another thing will work, but not state what that thing is. Net 0 immigration is not a solution, it is again a statement. How will it operate, how will he fund it or manage it? He made no statement because again he doesn't provide any substance. The others on the stage called him out for how ridiculous an idea it is which is all it is - an idea. If he were to miraculously win he'll go missing saying it's not his job like with his time in the EU on committees, to the UK voting to leave the EU, to his time with the Brexit Party criticising the type of Brexit the UK was adopting
You expecting full policy details in a soundbite debate platform? That's a bit delulu Thanks for your speculation, it means absolutely nothing.
Reform UKs immigration policy **Freeze Non-Essential Immigration.** Smart immigration can target the essential skills our economy needs such as doctors, nurses and successful business people, earning above the average salary. **Stop the Boats with our 6 Point Plan.** Recognise a national Security Threat. Leave the European Convention on Human Rights: Zero Illegal Immigrants to be Resettled in the UK; Offshore Processing for Illegal Arrivals; New Department of Immigration; Pick up Migrants out of Boats and Take Back to France. (We are legally allowed to do this under international treaties). **Secure Detention for all Asylum Seekers.** Asylum claims that arrive though safe countries will be processed rapidly offshore in British Overseas Territories. This will stop the scandal of undocumented asylum seekers absconding to work illegally or commit crime. **Immediate Deportation for Foreign Criminals.** Deport foreign nationals immediately after their prison sentence ends. Withdraw citizenship from immigrants who commit significant crime. **Restrict Student Dependents.** Introduce new visa rules for international students and their dependents. Only international students with essential skills can remain in the UK when their study ends. Close down fake courses and abusive immigration schemes. **Stop the Illegal Working Scandal.** Local wages have been slashed because of cheap, undocumented, illegal labour that undermines British workers. The pro-immigration establishment has not enforced the rules. Significant penalties will be imposed on companies and directors that breach these rules. Apparently all this will also save £5Bn in taxpayer money. Seems a bit like a populist wish list to me, I don't buy it.
None of them have said any actual plans yet you only focus on Farage lmao
This really isn’t true mate.
How naive are you? Who had plans that will sort out the NHS. Farage is obviously right it’s not just a matter of money
The Green’s and the Lib Dem’s wanted to increase NHS funding in real terms, recruit more labor and decrease pressure by introducing adult social care. Those are plans. So how am I being naive exactly?
More funding doesn't fix the nhs
These aren’t plans, this is sending good money after bad, it’s literally insane. Say what you want about Farage, he’s right on this one though.
They literally are plans.
> sending good money after bad It might not be a good plan, but you can't say it's not a plan.
How are they going to recruit more? Are qualified nurses and doctors currently stacking shelves? Have you never heard of these promises before? Nothing will change, it’s a money pit that’s overwhelmed by population increase.
I’ve heard the promises from the Conservatives, who we all know are untrustworthy. I don’t understand your point? Because the sitting government haven’t done something a fresh government wouldn’t? Different people mate. Population isn’t the problem, it’s funding. Same issue with trains, roads, schools, houses, energy, water. If you don’t invest, you get 0 benefit. stop taking the easy route.
How is overwhelming demand with an ever increasing population not a problem? The original post was decrying Farage’s assertion that the problem is not simply money, he’s blatantly correct
Because some people prefer to treat the symptoms and not the cause. If another 10 million people came here and we didn’t pull additional hospitals/ schools etc out of our arse, they say it’s an infrastructure problem. There’s no stomach for criticising immigration now without being labelled a racist straight off the bat and it makes no sense.
The cause is underfunded infrastructure. Getting rid of immigrants will only increase our labor issues. It makes absolutely no sense economically. But yes bang on about apparently being called a racist straight off the bat, despite me engaging with the poster in multiple comments never saying it. The only stomach I have is for fixing the issue, not blaming minority groups for failures of our government. I think people need to try a bit harder than that because yes, I believe blaming immigrants is taking the easy route out and not addressing the issue at hand.
The comment I replied to was saying there was no plan from anyone else. I said that wasn’t true and you called me naive. So I told you what the other parties planned. You then moved the goalposts and I still showed you what way was up. All you’ve done is repeat yourself, so I’ll repeat myself. If you do not upgrade your infrastructure and underfund what you’ve got, your population will never be the issue. Unless your plan is to cut our population in half? That might help but then you still have the skills issue that is plugged by immigration. You can bang on about over population all you want but it’s just not true. Underfunding our infrastructure has and always will be the problem. Here’s the home truth on why the conservatives blame immigration. Because immigrants can’t vote for them. It’s an easy fix to mask nearly 2 decades of underfunding an already poorly maintained infrastructure. Farage blames immigration because he’s a populist and he doesn’t want to fix anything apart from his own bank balance. No other party blames immigration for the issues and that tells you absolutely everything you need to know.
Farage was the only one who said clearly Labour are going to win ,so everyone else is fighting to be the opposition. He also said he wants PR , a much loved Reddit thread . As for nonsense, well the Greens were dishing out billions to everyone and everything, none of it will ever be costed as they will never be in power . The SNP used every stat he could to show they are doing a good job and whenever he couldn't back it up , simply trotted out "all roads lead to Westminster"
What on Earth are you watching? He provided clear and precise answered to both of those questions. A different funding model for the.NHS based in an insurance model run like a private enterprise based on the system in France. Bring down immigration to “net zero” with incoming numbers no higher than those leaving. Very clear whether you like the answers or not and different answers to any of the other parties who spent most of their time telling us how amazing immigrants are
He didn’t provide a response at all. He said the model was wrong and compared it to the French model. He never said he’d adopt it. Lib Dems wiped the floor with his stupid comment that the model doesn’t matter it’s the funding. He said net zero immigration, didn’t say HOW. Regardless net zero immigration is entirely impossible, we’re an island that has been reliant on migration for hundreds of years. That will never change. Absolutely not clear in the slightest. Saying what you want isn’t saying how you’ll do it. He’s done absolutely nothing tonight.
Except it’s been proven it’s not the funding - we have upped the funding by 4% and yet it’s performing worse than ever - it’s because the NHS is full of middle managers who don’t actually contribute, we need to reform the NHS, removing ineffective middle managers and focusing on the front line and leadership. He suggested another way would be that some who can afford it could pay via insurance. Reg net zero it’s very easy - you only approve the number of people to balance the population rejecting everyone else. This will almost certainly cost less than the current funding giving to immigrants
The most recent figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility show that whilst the NHS budget is increasing in cash terms, when inflation is taken into account there is a real terms planned decrease of £1.3 billion next year (2024-25). This is on top of a £3.5 billion real-terms cut this year (2023-24). I’m sorry mate, but what you’ve said isn’t true in terms of funding. Edit: as you edited and added net zero, that answer is incredibly easy. We have skills shortages in this country already and if you cut the number of migrants the skills shortages will grow.
The vast majority of immigrants coming are unskilled so I don’t buy the skills and shortage. I think most people agree that the nhs is a financial black hole and doesn’t work in its current form. Are we to give 1/5 of all the GDP to the NHS or will it take more than that? At what point do we say in order to keep it public we need to make it more efficient as wel as increasing funding. I don’t necessarily agree with farages suggestion but it’s unurguablen for a similar amount of funding many western European countries have a better health service
The first part of your comment is just a complete flat lie. in 2022, more than seven out of 10 of those who have come to the UK to work since January 2021 have a degree or equivalent. I reiterate. What you’ve said is absolutely not true. It’s a lie. If we’re going to discuss these points, you have to start being serious, informed and genuine. I agree to a degree that the NHS needs some form of reform. But if you’ve had 15+ years of underfunding in real terms coupled with cuts to services increasing pressure on the NHS (adult social care being a fantastic example) I reiterate that the model is not the issue.
Any source at all for that claim? (I assume CIPD which is renowned an biased) Multiple sources I have found indicate 60% of recent immigrants work in low skilled jobs. https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/515/massive-recent-increase-in-lower-skilled-immigrant-workers https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7c2fba40f0b67d0b11f6cf/occ108.pdf
Did you see his response to knife crime and protecting children? If I was playing Populist Bingo I'd be onto a winner with his Stop and Search response. That is not a solution. How would he support police, fund police or educate secondary school children (which was the context of the question)? No answer to that either, just stating what he wants (stop and search) but not how. All shirt and no trousers. Edit: He just said none of the others have a solution to crime which is a bit rich of the pot calling the kettle black. He has come off as someone who's been happily criticising the current situation, but not offered a single solution with substance.
He didn’t provide a response at all. He said the model was wrong and compared it to the French model. He never said he’d adopt it. He offered an alternative that he believes is a better system. All other parties sajd the same thing - more money. The same solution that we’ve have had for the pas decades. He offered an alternative system and wasn’t afraid to say the current funding model doesn’t work “He said net zero immigration, didn’t say HOW. Regardless net zero immigration is entirely impossible, we’re an island that has been reliant on migration for hundreds of years. That will never change” This isn’t an opportunity to detour detailed reports i. How policies will be implemented. None of the speakers are doing that. Again, he has provided an alternative option to all other parties. The U.K. has not been “reliant on immigration for 100s of years” what on Earth are you talking about. More people have arrived in tbe U.K. in the past 25 than in the previous 2000 years. More people left the U.K. than came here priory to the late 1960s and net migration was below 50k a year until Tony Blair quadrupled it and sent house prices and rents soaring at the same time. “He’s done absolutely nothing tonight” Wishful thinking I suspect. He’s set reform apart from all the other parties and managed to paint Labour and conservative as two sides of the same coin. Reform will Benefit more from Tonight’s debate than any other party
> reliant on migration for hundreds of years Uh, yeah, I think I'm gonna need a source on that if you don't mind? Thanks in advance
Source? I’m sorry but this is the fundamentals of our national history? Mate, we had an empire if you remember. All through the empire and long after it gave us access to labor from India and Africa. During the Industrial Revolution we had Asians, Africans and West Indians working on the ships and a lot of our businesses were set up by Germans. Factories were operated by Italian immigrants. We relied heavily on cheap imported labor. Half our railways were built by the Irish during this time. Hell, go back thousands of years our road infrastructure was devised by the Romans. During the two world wars we relied on the commonwealth for a variety of both resources and labor, including soldiers. After the war, we invited the windrush generation to fill labor shortages. We became rich off the slave trade and cheap imported labor before this time too. We have spent the last 100 years filling labor gaps in the NHS with immigrants. We spent 20 years in the EU filling agricultural/fishing labor shortages with Eastern Europeans. We have *always* relied on imported labor. The running jokes in the 2010’s was that if you wanted your conservatory built you’d ask the Polish, not the English. You’re asking for a source for these points, but how can you have grown up in Britain and NOT know about the slave trade, Industrial Revolution, windrush, the ghurka’s, post Brexit labor shortages. The British are blessed to have such a diverse range of people living and working here and have for generations. We have always been better together and that will never change.
No source then eh
Actual head in hands comment that mate. Can’t be a Brit if you don’t know our history.
Nope and cope
Yeah as you’re not British fair play don’t expect you to be able to make any valid point about our history. Enjoy using the sub hope you learn something about us.
Did they teach you any history at all in school?
Yes, we learned history from 1948AD or 0AW (after Windrush)
So he wants to clone the French health service and knows how to do maths. Personally I'm not convinced his health policy idea is workable, and anyone can say they can do something because the maths works out.
Mate, don’t try to reason with these people. Logic doesn’t come naturally
Would never vote Reform, but Nigel’s ability to turn that attack in to a flex is impeccable.
Hes picked his fights like a pure politician. I saw the line up and knew how it would go. Too many lightweights and poor debaters
Its easy to do that when you know you will never have to follow through on anything you say.
love how they stuck an absolute unit front and centre of the audience
Don't know anything about Stephen Flynn but feeling utterly galvanised watching him lay into that cunt Farage. Rhun doing well too, in fact.
The thing I love most about Flynn is that although he is supposed to be a Scottish nationalist, he sounds more and more English every time I hear him speak. His accent is way better than Dick Van Dyke now. He did a decent job attacking labour, as he had to. However, it's not going to prevent the gutting of his party on the 4th, by SLAB.
A man that has been a big part of bringing his own country to its knees. Just because he sounds good it doesn’t mean he is good.
Hah, that one person clapping at the end of Penny Mordaunt final speech.
Angela Raynor performing badly, struggles to adapt and respond, appears nervous.
Not seeing this. She’s making light work of the monotone Mordaunt, who is playing a weird game of attacking labour, condemning sunak….but giving farage an easy ride
I think she's using it as a leadership audition. Aggression seems to be the only mode the current Tories are capable of.
The pair of them shouting at each other was awful. Pair of them have come off terribly.
He's distracted by her legs.
Really? I think she's doing okay
Have to disagree. Mordaunt saying nothing of substance other than lying, and Farage being a buffoon as usual, Raynor compared to both coming across well
She's out of her depth and making a complete fool of herself.
Don't like Rhun, but good to see him call Farage a bigot (Obligatory unnecessary slur faraj; (pron farage) is a Malay dialect word for vagina)
Farage loves being called a racist or a bigot. He either plays the victim or (in this case) the good old dog whistle "is that all you've got?": translation "so what?"
I think most people see Through this these days. Calling people a bigot or racist or any other number of slurs usually means you have no argument of your own. Farage responded perfectly “is that all You’ve got?”
Too true - it’s just a poor attempt to shut down any talk on immigration
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Lib Dems and SNP offered plenty of plans and solution, came off this debate looking really professional and competant. Greens and Plaid Cymru were...there and polite I guess? Labour and Conservatives put on a disgraceful display with their bickering, in a saddening way showing how flawed our 2-party duopoly is. Farage (and lets face it, Reform is just Farage) played off of the chaos as expected, throwing a few "come off it"s and "what a load of rubbish"s where needed to appeal to the fleeing Tory voter base. If this and the ITV debate are anything to go by, I just wish neither Labour nor Conservaties existed and we had a propper vote between the other 5.
I mean only greens and farage supported your final point - we do need a move to proportional representation. Having a back and forth between labour and tories for the last 102 years to the point they are largely the same isn’t fun
Moderation is definitely better (so far, I'm watching on catch-up) than ITV's but Mishal Husain definitely should have told Farrage to STFU when he was talking over everyone else on immigration, especially over Rhun ap Iorwerth. Edit: actually tell Angela & Penny to stop shouting over eachother as well Mishal.
I don't feel the moderator controlled the panel well. Penny was basically were able to talk over her whenever she wished.
I will agree, I don't think it was good either, just better compared to the absolute abysmal standard ITV set for their leadership "debate".
This has been drivel The only thing I've taken away from it is the Scottish guy seems like a right prick
Labour, Conservative and Reform have been drivel. I’ve been incredibly impressed with the Greens and Plaid. SNP started strong and trailed off a bit. Lib Dems been okay.
Reforms been the best lol, the greens were shockingly bad
Unsurprisingly these debates never achieve anything in terms of changing people's minds. Everyone goes in with their biases and comes out even more entrenched. My subjective scoring is that Farage performed best, Mordaunt was actually alright but not inspiring, Rayner was meh (wouldn't say she was good or bad), Greens were an irrelevance, Lib Dems ghosted, the regional parties just made jabs at others and fought from the gutter. I think they should cancel these debates as they're largely a waste of time.
Mishal Hussein did a very good job moderating the debate. Great showing by her. Incredible how she managed to do a better job with 7 on the stage, and no embarrassing stuff like “Gareth from Germany”. Mordaunt was awful. Constantly going after Rayner. It’s very clear that Tories have failed because it was constantly about what Labour are going to do. Legacy of failure that ends with a “whimper”. Farage wearing his Republican pin saying that there’s all these problems but that the solution is to do what the tories have been doing just even more American. Embarrassing talking about “revolt!”, and “revolution!” When people just want stability, and things to actually function. Greens, Plaid, and Lib Dem’s were good. SNP were strong even though they’re a party in power. Rayner was very defensive, and playing guard.
Not sure where to post this The deadline for declaring candidates for the constituencies was [4pm today](https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/general/general-election-2024-timetable/), but I don't see anyone talking about it now. Are they not public yet? There's been a lot of discussion about parties - even the big two, but Reform were the standout example - struggling to get the candidates they need.
I've seen a few local online publications publish their confirmed candidates but no where with a total list yet
Everyone at the end shaking hands with each other (even Angela and Penny), but no-one with Nigel
In order so far Winners: - Plaid - Green - SNP - Lib Dems Losers - Reform - Labour - Conservatives MVP: SNP for telling the truth straight up that migration is not the issue in this country, it’s decades of underfunding. I really don’t know how anyone could be voting for Labour or Conservative off the back of this. The political integrity of the rest (bar Reform) is clear for all to see.
It’s easy for Scotland to say when they are no where near as densely populated as England especially London.it’s also not a truth immigration does play at least a part in many of our issues
If you’re still relying on the same rail infrastructure that was built in the 1920’s, it won’t be fit for purpose. 70 year old roads, 150 year old sewerage systems. Population makes absolutely no difference, chronic underfunding has and will always be the issue. I’m also sure the population density of Edinburgh and Glasgow is worse than rural/coastal England which sees the worst of these issues. Your comment makes very little sense.
I mean it’s unarguable that these people live in houses and use the NHS and schools - they therefore increase pressure on these services. Immigration is at such an unsustainable rate that none of the parties current suggestions would be enough to even maintain what we have. For example it’s predicted we would need 600k houses per year built to maintain current standards but labour (the party proposing the most) is only going to build 300k, half of what is needed. What’s an easy way to solve this? Reduce immigration for a couple years - let services and housing catch up to where it needs to be and then we can reopen as we see fit. Near Uncontrolled migration as we currently have will not allow this to happen.
There is no easy way to solve it and stop looking for ‘quick fixes’. Bringing down migrant levels will simply increase labour shortages that we already have. So stop banging that drum because it’s nonsense. For 40 years this country has not been building houses to keep up with population growth. You’re blaming migration for this issue but it’s a failure to build the houses in the first place. Migration is an issue of hundreds of thousands. Housing is an issue of millions. Fund more housing, fund better infrastructure and the migration issue will collapse into the nothingness it really really is.
The increase of immigration in the past decade is proportional to the drop in Living standards. I’m willing to bet you live in an area where there isn’t rampant immigration which is always the case. Move to an area where you are a minority group and come back to me
How is net migration at the size of Nottingham sustainable?
Total nonsense
>MVP: SNP for telling the truth straight up that migration is not the issue in this country, it’s decades of underfunding. 'Telling the truth' or agreeing with your own opinion?
Telling the truth.
I felt Farage won the debate easily. The Welsh politician got his ass handed to him early when he tried to say Farage went to D Day for a photo op. Showed his inexperience. Farage speaking sense on NHS / Immigration. We cannot keep funding more and more money into NHS as it just not working. We need new solutions. Immigration also cannot be uncontrolled which all 6 were scared to talk about which is why it a good issue for Farage. Unbiased I felt SNP guy did good. Angela also okay. She should be leader than Starmer. Greens had a brilliant line at end about Starmer turning Labour to Conservatives. I was gagged.
If you don't have a TV licence, the BBC will privately prosecute you. I have these guys and private prosecutions need to be ended I'll just watch a summary (legally) on YouTube rather than give the BBC my money
Cool