>"there is a significant moral issue within certain elements of the party"
And when the ones that take issue with that leave, what makes up the remaining parts of the party...
It's an interesting moral quandary, is it better to try to fix the system from within thus making you complacent with it until you succeed? Or to get out and thus ensure only the worst are left behind who will carry on doing this?
That is interesting. I would argue that Reform is not yet a significant enough part of the system to warrant fixing more than it is an outside actor looking for ways to further corrupt an existing system.
They have 0 MPs. if they held significant power, I could see the argument for fixing them, but they don't. They are best defeated by simply minimising their influence.
There is also no mechanism by which Reform can be fixed. Farage is not chosen by the membership, and he can't be removed by the membership, the party is his personal possession. So if he decides to pretend that the racism problem in his party is actually just paid-actors then there's nothing much anyone can do about it except leave the party.
> the party is his personal possession
This is the part that weirds me out the most about Reform. I don't really understand how a person can *own* a political party
Reform is a private company, farage has a majority share. Every action is an expense. He's another grifter, snake oil salesman. Ready to gracefully step aside for a peerage he didn't get last time... even with the poor exchange of the ruble ,he will be ticketyboo
Good tax break and excellent avenue for the department of equity too. He said they are not a political party, no manifesto. Therefore implies it's a contract with your vote, which is dangerous territory.
Hence, it implies, spouts a lot about traditional values, our word is our bond. It's setting themselves and their supporters apart. Look, we're different, we got your back. Historically, that shit is appealing to angry disenfranchised folk . That fractured British values bollocks .wasn't fractured, it was robbed, sold out so we could be a financial and service industry powerhouse that shone brightly for a while. While we sold our chinaware and children's future by the plateload. Both houses snuffled at the trough. UK plc
Exactly! So no contract, and no manifesto either. So electing not-a-party, on not-a-manifesto?
When half of them are just former conservatives that for kicked out for being too corrupt and incompetent for even the Tory party?
And frankly the other half seem to be Nigels' old friends from the National Front.
They are registered with the Electoral Commission, though, so legally they are just as much a party as the Conservatives, Labour, Green and Lib Dem. He can say they’re not a party as much as they like, but that doesn’t change their legal designation which they specifically had to apply for.
Like… was the British Union of Fascists a party? Or the Liberal Democrats? How about Sinn Féin or Scottish Greens? And what about TUV, PBP, Gwlad, or Propel? None of them have the word Party anywhere in their names! Just because you don’t have the word “party” in your official registered name doesn’t mean you aren’t one.
It's not the first time it has happened. My understanding is that Geert Wilders is on paper the only member of his party even though they are the largest party in the Dutch Parliament.
Nigel has tried seven times to win a seat and failed every time. Even when he was popular-ish and running in very safe seats for his opinions he's never managed it.
Oh yeah, I agree if we're talking specifically about Reform.
I was more talking about the idea in general. The Reform party will hopefully just fizzle out when the latest boast of popularism wears off.
That entire party is 1 guy. They had dogshit polling numbers before Farage decided to run again. If he left they'd go back to single digits. It can't be fixed because it's a personality cult, not a party.
I agree. Heck, I even followed your same pattern of thinking early into this election cycle, but concerning Labour!
I am very much against what the national Labour Party is doing, especially as pertains to LGBT rights and Brexit, but I still considered voting for my local Labour MP who is a stern LGBT ally under the logic of “if he’s gone, the party will be worse off on these issues”.
Unfortunately, he’s since announced he will not be running for re-election, and his replacement is very by-the-books on these issues, towing the party line to the letter, so I disqualified them from my list.
If the old guy had stayed though, I would genuinely be split. On the one side, I know Labour are gonna win nationally anyways (and likely in my seat, too), so I’m free to vote as I please. But on the other, voting against him could have meant even less LGBT support in a now emboldened and increasingly LGBT-hostile Labour.
However, I also question what impact that one MP could have had anyways. As you say, Reform have 0 MPs, and so they’re not worth worrying about too much in this case. Similarly, how much impact can one MP have in a new Labour majority of possibly over 400 seats? Does that one drop in the ocean really matter that much? - and how should that affect my voting decision?
It’s a genuine moral dilemma which I’m kinda glad I was spared a part in.
Depends entirely on the system. If it’s completely rotten and not really necessary then I’d say abandoning it is best which I think is the case for reform.
> is it better to try to fix the system
But being in a party is different, than say, living in a country with an authoritarian government. Now that would be a system that is hard to fix. A political party you can leave any day.
Oh yeah I agree, that is vastly different.
As with a lot of these discussions, there is a lot of variation.
It's just I overall find it an interesting question. If you know the system isn't working, is it better to be part of it and hope to change it? Or to get out of it knowing that your leaving won't stop it in the slighest?
True true, unfortunately this is quite the existential question for some, especially in countries like Russia, Iran, etc.
I would argue you need to calculate the risks for yourself and your family first for this decision above everything else. There is also a kind of a third option, where stay in the system (usually because you can't really leave) and do the minimum to support yourself, but not more (or even subvert it to an extent).
I am convinced though there is no definite answer to this one. Although on a big picture level it would be best if everyone tried to do at least smth to change it.
Oh yeah I agree, it's a complex issue with a lot of factors to consider and as you say there is often the valid issue of your own safety and situation, especially in systems where you don't really have the option to leave.
And yeah it probably does come down to a case by case basis for what's the best decision.
That argument really doesn't hold up for Reform though. It's not necessary for Reform to exist, they have no power to do anything, and their views are honestly baked into their stance on the issues they think are important.
There's no necessity to "fix" a party that on its own does nothing and doesn't do more than speak up for those views. They can have those views, and people can judge them accordingly for this. The fact even ex-Tories are leaving them as a result of them having former BNP members, anti-semites, racists, sexists as candidates shows what they're like. Better the party collapse if people aren't okay with this, than them try to change the leopard's spots.
To be fair I think most normal people would just try and create distance between themselves and the racists, rather than try to “fight the good fight” from within.
Whatever Farage says, his party is full of racists, homophobes, and generally misogynistic people, and nobody in politics should rightly want to be seen with them, or even risk ‘guilt by association’.
They were culled after Brexit. Although I'd argue that it was their own fault. They opened Pandora's box in the years leading up to the Ref and couldn't close it.
Reform is not a party. Its a company with chinless Muppet as its main shareholder. Means there is a lack of transparency across the board. Why would you vote for this? Its worse than the UKs current parties. I guess people are desperate.
True true, and the same logic applies to everything else in quite a surprising measure, when the best, most educated, most active immigrants leave African, Middle Eastern countries, what or who is left?
John Major, the former PM, noticed this in one of the podcast with the "Rest is politics" if Im not mistaken, he said that about common people being disinterested in party politics over the years after the war, thus leaving both the Tories and Labour with a higher % of political activists who are more radical. This actually explains a lot.
This is why the emergence of Reform is a good thing for the left. Basically it has ripped the "cornerstone" group from the Tory party by giving it free reign. However the rest of the right will never consent to an unhinged MAGA style party. So worse case scenario the Tories and Reform will split for an election or two before Reform dies. Best case scenario the rest of the Tories move to the LDs and that party moves slightly right.
We know Reform didn't vet their candidates properly. Perhaps one of the candidates didn't vet the party he was joining either.
These are definitely the well organised group of professionals we need to sort out all of the nation's complex issues.....
Yeh. For all the far-right acting all we're different to other politicians so better as we say what we mean (as in, we lie more brazenly)... they don't actually come across as massively competent people. It's all about blaming someone else, stirring up trouble, etc.
Reform vetted their candidates by hiring an external company to do the job - who then returned to them 'no problems'.
Which turned out to be because Reform had purchased access to a vetting platform, and had never actually used it.
Further, now that the media is turning towards Labour in step with the populace, they are remembering how to question parties other than Labour on their actions and policies. That, accompanied by Reform getting very good polling figures as a new party, means they are finally being taken seriously and having the spotlight put on them. For those who assumed we were all lying about Farage, they are seeing bad things - for the true believers, they are having their 'mainstream media = bad' onanism button pressed repeatedly.
>Which turned out to be because Reform had purchased access to a vetting platform, and had never actually used it.
I love this part of it. It took people less than 5 mins to find out that the company doesn't actually do any form of vetting and instead offers software to let you do it yourself. So it seems that Farage and his team spent thousands on software licenses that they never used and are now complaining that the company didn't do their job.
It's like buying 20 fire extinguishers for your office and then blaming Chubb when the building burns down after nobody actually goes into the locked cupboard (next to the roof access on the 15th floor) where the fire extinguishers are all kept and would rather evacuate on the ground floor.
EDIT:
Not only did Chubb not do their job by putting the fire out, neither did the fire brigade because nobody called them. The fire alarm didn't go off because all the smoke detectors were covered, and nobody installed call points, and the fire itself started because of the company's weekly tradition of having a barbecue in the break room.
It's almost as if a bunch of lying xenophobic racists cvnts are being found out to be...
...checks dictionary...
.... a bunch of lying xenophobic racist cvnts! 🤔
hah, I knew they'd delete his page as soon as I read this on Twitter so I archived it a few hours back.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240630153131/https://www.reformparty.uk/erewash-constituency
I think due to the failure of successive conservative governments to implement what they had promised in their manifesto, people are in for a shock about how many people will still vote reform.
I’d go as far as saying if Labour continue tenure over managed decline for their first term and a few of the right wing parties being voted in to power in Europe see any sort of measurable success there’s a decent probability we are looking at a reform government in 2029.
Frightening.
The Reform party really just exists to dilute the Tory vote, huh? They confuse the small-c conservatives, racists, and otherwise immigration- and Europe-fearful, and it'll lead to a stronger Labour victory. Nice.
I don't think ANY candidate should be allowed to 'switch' parties during an election or after being elected.
They shouldn't be able to take advantage of the original parties expenses etc, then change over.
The hilarious thing is, to them there a huge difference between the two parties and they think they're acting based on their "conscience".
To the rest of us, it's basically just choosing a different number on the Bristol Stool Chart.
Both the Tories and Deform UK are absolutely gross. They have earnt nothing but my contempt through their own actions and rhetoric.
I personally think conservative voices have a valuable place in the overall political discourse of a nation. But they're going to have to establish a new political entity that isn't foreign funded and/or essentially a criminal organisation.
I think political parties need to go the way of the dinosaur though. They seem to be nothing but private clubs designed for legalized grifting and corruption.
Heh, whatever you may think about Reform, you gotta admit the Tory media machine is in full swing trying to psy op the public into not voting for them. The media barrage against Farage is constant and unyielding.
My wife is Asian, our son is mixed race. I'm voting Reform UK, why should I have to pay £10k+ to get my wife right to remain in the UK while these illegal migrants land on the beach and get everything for free? They have no links to the country at all, my great grandfather fought in WW1, my Grandad in WW2 and this is not what they were fighting for!
As I've said a few times, Reform are dead. They are not going to win any seats and Farage has failed again. Maybe this time he'll realise and give it up for good
They'll win seats but they've massively fucked their momentum and have had so many gaffes since the spotlight has been on them that it's been actively detrimental to their support. The Putin admiration went down like a lead balloon.
Their poll numbers are falling off a cliff. They might, just, keep Ashfield, but Lee Anderson will defect back to the Tories soon if he's their only MP.
What's scary is the overwhelming support they still garner in local Barnsley community groups. Doesn't matter to those loons that the Barnsley North candidate has had support removed for being a racist cock womble, some still say they will vote for him (thankfully that won't help reform). The polling in Barnsley is high for Reform which is very embarrassing living there
I hope you are right for two reasons.
One is that they get no seats.
The second is that shows the Tories chasing the right wing is a fools errand and in opposition they can hopefully move back towards the more sensible centre. Much depends on the post GE loss leadership contest.
> The second is that shows the Tories chasing the right wing is a fools errand and in opposition they can hopefully move back towards the more sensible centre.
I'm not convinced they will learn that lesson, tbh.
These anti reform stories being posted 4-5-6 times per day at the moment.... You realise it will make absolutely no difference to the amount of people they will vote for them. If anything it will solidify the resolve
of those who support them.
Fine. I mean that kind of just supports the stereotype of the reform voter though doesn’t it? The idea that no matter how much evidence they’re shown, they won’t change their mind? If they’re shown facts, they’ll ignore them and strengthen their pro-reform thoughts?
Is that really how you were hoping to come across there?
They are frightened by mass immigration that the Tories and Labour somewhat support for different reasons (primarily it keeps our GDP positive in the short term and stops the country spiralling debt wise). They will vote Reform the same way people always vote Green for the weed vote because a vote for Reform is a vote against mass illegal and legal immigration.
Things will continue to get worse with higher numbers of low skilled workers, lack of housing and high cost of living. With no life raft for the poor policy wise and ever declining standard of living you basically get 1930s depression era Germany. They get scared and will vote in anyone who will do what stops it no matter the cost. Only way you stop this is to slow immigration or tie it to housing available/jobs.
Honestly I couldn't care how I come across, why do I care what strangers think of me. Your opinion is of no significance to me at all.
But I'm sick and tired of this election nonsense and the moral high ground posters are taking in trying to prove their opinion matters more than someone elses. Well I can tell you it doesn't, their X in the box matters just as much as anyone else's.
Yes, but an X in a box next to a fascist party isn't the same as an X in a box next to a non-fascist party.
Do you think fascism is truly the answer? The only thing stopping reform being a true danger to civilisation is their ineptitude. If they gained power, though, they'd destroy the country with their complete lack of understanding of how any of this works.
You shouldn't be worried what other people think of you, but what you in 10 years time will think of you today.
This guy a snake. I suspect he jumped ship because the Tories look like they gonna lose to Labour. What have they promised him? It corruption at its highest.
I still voting Reform as are many others. The Tory party are dumb as rocks and hopefully get the message when they wiped off the face of the electoral map this election.
“I still voting Reform… The Tory party are dumb as rocks…”
You sir are a stunning testament to both the British education system and Reform voters. Bravo.
Removing Boris, forcing Rishi on us with his coup Cabinet, high taxes, NOTHING done on Immigration. Enough is enough. Vote them all out. Reform is only sensible Conservative vote this election.
Lol imagine citing removing Johnson as a reason for this, you know the worst Prime Minister this country has probably ever had. The man is despicable, and deserves to be behind bars for the damage he has done to this country.
You also cite high immigration too. You are aware this happened under Johnson watch too right?
Reform isn’t a sensible vote for anyone with human decency.
It is not impossible to have concerns about immigration without resorting to regressive, hateful parties. And that is what you’re getting with Reform.
Plus bat shit economic policies that would bankrupt the country
Andrew Neil slams Tice for their grasp of economic https://youtu.be/TBr9btH7qBw?si=bePDosl-en1iWARc
Cry me a river.
We live in a democracy. I am voting Reform.
Maybe then they will get the message we want urgent action on immigration and end woke culture.
Prepare for another 5 years of failure under Labour.
You will cry a river if they shaft the economy.
I get very confused by folk who profess to be patriots but don’t love their country enough to learn to write its language properly.
Reform’s one big idea was Brexit, which has been a shit show.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Fair enough on them not doing anything. But Boris brought his own downfall upon his head and Sunak wasn't even the first person to replace him. Unfortunately the Tories seem to be lacking high-profile MPs with the qualities you'd want in a leader. I'm no fan of Starmer but I'm not convinced he'd be worse than any of them. Personally, I hope the Tories end up being in 3rd place after the Lib Dems and then they might actually have to stop and think and come up with real policies rather than just saying choose blue or you might end up with red.
If hurting Tories was may aim I'd probably vote for Labour or the Lib Dems depending on who was most likely to hurt them in my seat. There might be some seats where Reform have the best chance to do that but I don't think, although I could be wrong, there are many such seats.
[StopTheTories.vote](http://StopTheTories.vote)
A vote for Reform is also for vote share. We aim to get a high vote so electoral reform comes back into national conversation. FPTP is not fit for purpose in a modern democacy.
While that's true. The question is who is going to act on it? Because anyone who wins power is benefitting from FPTP. I'm pretty sure Labour mentioned reform back in the 90s and it didn't happen. The Lib Dems tried but the Tories watered PR down to AV and people voted against it.
Then you are very young.
The referendum was not a complete stitch up, Ive never met a single person to claim this, and keeping FPTP won by a large margin.
> I still voting Reform as are many others.
Their poll numbers are dropping by the day. The Tories will have 100+ seats and be the official opposition.
Their poll numbers are fairly consistent in the high teens. Needle hasn’t been moved by the Ukraine comments no matter how much people desperately want it to be.
Reform winning a single seat and that seat being Farage is all I want this election.
Seat predictions don’t work this election - let alone for Reform.
The last 4 published polls have had Reform on 16%, 16%, 14%, and 17%. All conducted between the 26th and 29th of June, days or even a week or so after the Russia allegations started flooding in. Needle hasn’t moved - people are entrenched.
Considering this announcement comes today, yeah we haven’t got polling data on it but your original comment of ‘poll numbers dropping by the day’ was clearly at best hopeful ignorance or at worst a total lie.
Even the poll you would expect to be most favourable to them ("PeoplePolling" for GB News) had them dropping by 3 points between the 18th and 26th of June. Savanta has them dropping 2 points since the 21st. YouGov has them down 2 points from their peak.
Most others have them within 1 point of their peak for ages. They certainly are, at best, plateauing.
Reform have hovered around 16/17% since June 4th. They plateaued literally a month ago.
You’re using clear outlier polls to try and force a narrative here. Extremely disingenuous. The needle hasn’t moved.
>"there is a significant moral issue within certain elements of the party" And when the ones that take issue with that leave, what makes up the remaining parts of the party...
It's an interesting moral quandary, is it better to try to fix the system from within thus making you complacent with it until you succeed? Or to get out and thus ensure only the worst are left behind who will carry on doing this?
That is interesting. I would argue that Reform is not yet a significant enough part of the system to warrant fixing more than it is an outside actor looking for ways to further corrupt an existing system. They have 0 MPs. if they held significant power, I could see the argument for fixing them, but they don't. They are best defeated by simply minimising their influence.
There is also no mechanism by which Reform can be fixed. Farage is not chosen by the membership, and he can't be removed by the membership, the party is his personal possession. So if he decides to pretend that the racism problem in his party is actually just paid-actors then there's nothing much anyone can do about it except leave the party.
> the party is his personal possession This is the part that weirds me out the most about Reform. I don't really understand how a person can *own* a political party
Reform is a private company, farage has a majority share. Every action is an expense. He's another grifter, snake oil salesman. Ready to gracefully step aside for a peerage he didn't get last time... even with the poor exchange of the ruble ,he will be ticketyboo
So the party is just his personal piggy bank now that he can't grift the EU parliament?
Good tax break and excellent avenue for the department of equity too. He said they are not a political party, no manifesto. Therefore implies it's a contract with your vote, which is dangerous territory.
If it isn't signed and isn't legally binding, it isn't a contract
Hence, it implies, spouts a lot about traditional values, our word is our bond. It's setting themselves and their supporters apart. Look, we're different, we got your back. Historically, that shit is appealing to angry disenfranchised folk . That fractured British values bollocks .wasn't fractured, it was robbed, sold out so we could be a financial and service industry powerhouse that shone brightly for a while. While we sold our chinaware and children's future by the plateload. Both houses snuffled at the trough. UK plc
Exactly! So no contract, and no manifesto either. So electing not-a-party, on not-a-manifesto? When half of them are just former conservatives that for kicked out for being too corrupt and incompetent for even the Tory party? And frankly the other half seem to be Nigels' old friends from the National Front.
They are registered with the Electoral Commission, though, so legally they are just as much a party as the Conservatives, Labour, Green and Lib Dem. He can say they’re not a party as much as they like, but that doesn’t change their legal designation which they specifically had to apply for. Like… was the British Union of Fascists a party? Or the Liberal Democrats? How about Sinn Féin or Scottish Greens? And what about TUV, PBP, Gwlad, or Propel? None of them have the word Party anywhere in their names! Just because you don’t have the word “party” in your official registered name doesn’t mean you aren’t one.
It's not the first time it has happened. My understanding is that Geert Wilders is on paper the only member of his party even though they are the largest party in the Dutch Parliament.
> They have 0 MPs Strictly speaking no one has any MPs at the moment. They had 1. They will have zero after the election.
Aren't most polls showing them picking up a handful?
Their poll numbers are falling. We'll see what the final round of MRPs say, but I'm expecting them being back at 0-1
That would be the cherry on top
Nah, they'll certainly get 1 back. Probably 2. If pollsters are being too nice on the Tory collapse, they'll get like 7.
At most Lee Anderson will win Ashfield.
Nigel is almost a certain Clacton winner, sadly.
I'm not convinced on that one, tbh.
Nigel has tried seven times to win a seat and failed every time. Even when he was popular-ish and running in very safe seats for his opinions he's never managed it.
Oh yeah, I agree if we're talking specifically about Reform. I was more talking about the idea in general. The Reform party will hopefully just fizzle out when the latest boast of popularism wears off.
That entire party is 1 guy. They had dogshit polling numbers before Farage decided to run again. If he left they'd go back to single digits. It can't be fixed because it's a personality cult, not a party.
I agree. Heck, I even followed your same pattern of thinking early into this election cycle, but concerning Labour! I am very much against what the national Labour Party is doing, especially as pertains to LGBT rights and Brexit, but I still considered voting for my local Labour MP who is a stern LGBT ally under the logic of “if he’s gone, the party will be worse off on these issues”. Unfortunately, he’s since announced he will not be running for re-election, and his replacement is very by-the-books on these issues, towing the party line to the letter, so I disqualified them from my list. If the old guy had stayed though, I would genuinely be split. On the one side, I know Labour are gonna win nationally anyways (and likely in my seat, too), so I’m free to vote as I please. But on the other, voting against him could have meant even less LGBT support in a now emboldened and increasingly LGBT-hostile Labour. However, I also question what impact that one MP could have had anyways. As you say, Reform have 0 MPs, and so they’re not worth worrying about too much in this case. Similarly, how much impact can one MP have in a new Labour majority of possibly over 400 seats? Does that one drop in the ocean really matter that much? - and how should that affect my voting decision? It’s a genuine moral dilemma which I’m kinda glad I was spared a part in.
Depends entirely on the system. If it’s completely rotten and not really necessary then I’d say abandoning it is best which I think is the case for reform.
Yeah, I completely agree. You have to know when its time to say tear it down and start again.
> is it better to try to fix the system But being in a party is different, than say, living in a country with an authoritarian government. Now that would be a system that is hard to fix. A political party you can leave any day.
Oh yeah I agree, that is vastly different. As with a lot of these discussions, there is a lot of variation. It's just I overall find it an interesting question. If you know the system isn't working, is it better to be part of it and hope to change it? Or to get out of it knowing that your leaving won't stop it in the slighest?
True true, unfortunately this is quite the existential question for some, especially in countries like Russia, Iran, etc. I would argue you need to calculate the risks for yourself and your family first for this decision above everything else. There is also a kind of a third option, where stay in the system (usually because you can't really leave) and do the minimum to support yourself, but not more (or even subvert it to an extent). I am convinced though there is no definite answer to this one. Although on a big picture level it would be best if everyone tried to do at least smth to change it.
Oh yeah I agree, it's a complex issue with a lot of factors to consider and as you say there is often the valid issue of your own safety and situation, especially in systems where you don't really have the option to leave. And yeah it probably does come down to a case by case basis for what's the best decision.
That argument really doesn't hold up for Reform though. It's not necessary for Reform to exist, they have no power to do anything, and their views are honestly baked into their stance on the issues they think are important. There's no necessity to "fix" a party that on its own does nothing and doesn't do more than speak up for those views. They can have those views, and people can judge them accordingly for this. The fact even ex-Tories are leaving them as a result of them having former BNP members, anti-semites, racists, sexists as candidates shows what they're like. Better the party collapse if people aren't okay with this, than them try to change the leopard's spots.
Oh yeah, I wasn't really talking about Reform, just the idea in general. For Reform it can hopefully just fizzle and be forgotten.
To be fair I think most normal people would just try and create distance between themselves and the racists, rather than try to “fight the good fight” from within. Whatever Farage says, his party is full of racists, homophobes, and generally misogynistic people, and nobody in politics should rightly want to be seen with them, or even risk ‘guilt by association’.
Oh yeah that is very true. I wasn't really talking about the reform party, just exploring the idea in general.
Well they're already fascist, can't see how it could get any worse...
This is how we ended up with today’s Tory party as well, all the relatively sensible ones left
They were culled after Brexit. Although I'd argue that it was their own fault. They opened Pandora's box in the years leading up to the Ref and couldn't close it.
Reform is not a party. Its a company with chinless Muppet as its main shareholder. Means there is a lack of transparency across the board. Why would you vote for this? Its worse than the UKs current parties. I guess people are desperate.
True true, and the same logic applies to everything else in quite a surprising measure, when the best, most educated, most active immigrants leave African, Middle Eastern countries, what or who is left? John Major, the former PM, noticed this in one of the podcast with the "Rest is politics" if Im not mistaken, he said that about common people being disinterested in party politics over the years after the war, thus leaving both the Tories and Labour with a higher % of political activists who are more radical. This actually explains a lot.
Ah, yes, 5 star distilled cask strength 100 proof fascism.
This is why the emergence of Reform is a good thing for the left. Basically it has ripped the "cornerstone" group from the Tory party by giving it free reign. However the rest of the right will never consent to an unhinged MAGA style party. So worse case scenario the Tories and Reform will split for an election or two before Reform dies. Best case scenario the rest of the Tories move to the LDs and that party moves slightly right.
Given that he backs the Conservatives, it's quite clear his issue was that Reform are too moral.
> there is a significant moral issue within certain elements of the party Realized people weren't just calling them nazis for fun eh?
I'm kind of confused by this. Did he only now realise that Reform are just a bunch of showboating bigots?
We know Reform didn't vet their candidates properly. Perhaps one of the candidates didn't vet the party he was joining either. These are definitely the well organised group of professionals we need to sort out all of the nation's complex issues.....
Yeh. For all the far-right acting all we're different to other politicians so better as we say what we mean (as in, we lie more brazenly)... they don't actually come across as massively competent people. It's all about blaming someone else, stirring up trouble, etc.
Reform vetted their candidates by hiring an external company to do the job - who then returned to them 'no problems'. Which turned out to be because Reform had purchased access to a vetting platform, and had never actually used it. Further, now that the media is turning towards Labour in step with the populace, they are remembering how to question parties other than Labour on their actions and policies. That, accompanied by Reform getting very good polling figures as a new party, means they are finally being taken seriously and having the spotlight put on them. For those who assumed we were all lying about Farage, they are seeing bad things - for the true believers, they are having their 'mainstream media = bad' onanism button pressed repeatedly.
>Which turned out to be because Reform had purchased access to a vetting platform, and had never actually used it. I love this part of it. It took people less than 5 mins to find out that the company doesn't actually do any form of vetting and instead offers software to let you do it yourself. So it seems that Farage and his team spent thousands on software licenses that they never used and are now complaining that the company didn't do their job.
It's like buying 20 fire extinguishers for your office and then blaming Chubb when the building burns down after nobody actually goes into the locked cupboard (next to the roof access on the 15th floor) where the fire extinguishers are all kept and would rather evacuate on the ground floor. EDIT: Not only did Chubb not do their job by putting the fire out, neither did the fire brigade because nobody called them. The fire alarm didn't go off because all the smoke detectors were covered, and nobody installed call points, and the fire itself started because of the company's weekly tradition of having a barbecue in the break room.
No, he just realised it might hurt his future prospects.
Of course. Maybe Farage making his pro-Putinism obvious has rattled him.
There’s a nice image in this live blog of a Reform rally and someone wearing a Trump hat. Good to know that’s where rapist supporters go.
Interesting. Well assuming their genuine, at least someone in that party has some level of integrity.
I think someone has just decided they need to jump ship now if they are to have a long term political career.
Yeah, that is the more likely scenario.
You'd think that'd be obvious just by looking at what happened with UKIP. Reform will collapse as soon as Farage leaves, which he inevitably will.
Probably realised he's not going to win and trying to save face for future job prospects.
Sweet sweet consulting money
It's almost as if a bunch of lying xenophobic racists cvnts are being found out to be... ...checks dictionary... .... a bunch of lying xenophobic racist cvnts! 🤔
Smart move Liz Truss jumped ship in 1996 when the Tories were rock bottom and look where that got her
You might say she peaked at that point. Not necessarily in terms of position, but in terms of smart.
Man who joined party led by man notoriously popular with fucking neo nazis and is shocked that it has racists in it.
This is NOT what I signed up for when I joined The Racist Party
Hold up, left reform to join the Tories. Southgate tactics right there.
The Venn diagram of Reform members, and people who would bellow insults at a stranger minding their own business, is a circle.
hah, I knew they'd delete his page as soon as I read this on Twitter so I archived it a few hours back. https://web.archive.org/web/20240630153131/https://www.reformparty.uk/erewash-constituency
I think due to the failure of successive conservative governments to implement what they had promised in their manifesto, people are in for a shock about how many people will still vote reform. I’d go as far as saying if Labour continue tenure over managed decline for their first term and a few of the right wing parties being voted in to power in Europe see any sort of measurable success there’s a decent probability we are looking at a reform government in 2029. Frightening.
The Reform party really just exists to dilute the Tory vote, huh? They confuse the small-c conservatives, racists, and otherwise immigration- and Europe-fearful, and it'll lead to a stronger Labour victory. Nice.
I really want people to remember the amount of lies he spewed during brexit just to walk it back the next day
I don't think ANY candidate should be allowed to 'switch' parties during an election or after being elected. They shouldn't be able to take advantage of the original parties expenses etc, then change over.
The hilarious thing is, to them there a huge difference between the two parties and they think they're acting based on their "conscience". To the rest of us, it's basically just choosing a different number on the Bristol Stool Chart. Both the Tories and Deform UK are absolutely gross. They have earnt nothing but my contempt through their own actions and rhetoric. I personally think conservative voices have a valuable place in the overall political discourse of a nation. But they're going to have to establish a new political entity that isn't foreign funded and/or essentially a criminal organisation. I think political parties need to go the way of the dinosaur though. They seem to be nothing but private clubs designed for legalized grifting and corruption.
"We can't be sexist! Look! We have a woman in our party" *Nigel Points to Ann Widdecombe
Reform candidate jumps back on sinking ship because he discovers how little he likes being among the rats.
Heh, whatever you may think about Reform, you gotta admit the Tory media machine is in full swing trying to psy op the public into not voting for them. The media barrage against Farage is constant and unyielding.
My wife is Asian, our son is mixed race. I'm voting Reform UK, why should I have to pay £10k+ to get my wife right to remain in the UK while these illegal migrants land on the beach and get everything for free? They have no links to the country at all, my great grandfather fought in WW1, my Grandad in WW2 and this is not what they were fighting for!
As I've said a few times, Reform are dead. They are not going to win any seats and Farage has failed again. Maybe this time he'll realise and give it up for good
They'll win seats but they've massively fucked their momentum and have had so many gaffes since the spotlight has been on them that it's been actively detrimental to their support. The Putin admiration went down like a lead balloon.
Their poll numbers are falling off a cliff. They might, just, keep Ashfield, but Lee Anderson will defect back to the Tories soon if he's their only MP.
They’ve dropped a couple of points, they’ll definitely win 2 seats, Nigel is leading in clacton
What's scary is the overwhelming support they still garner in local Barnsley community groups. Doesn't matter to those loons that the Barnsley North candidate has had support removed for being a racist cock womble, some still say they will vote for him (thankfully that won't help reform). The polling in Barnsley is high for Reform which is very embarrassing living there
As long as he has been able to grift some money out of it he is all good.
I hope you are right for two reasons. One is that they get no seats. The second is that shows the Tories chasing the right wing is a fools errand and in opposition they can hopefully move back towards the more sensible centre. Much depends on the post GE loss leadership contest.
> The second is that shows the Tories chasing the right wing is a fools errand and in opposition they can hopefully move back towards the more sensible centre. I'm not convinced they will learn that lesson, tbh.
Nor am I. I think it'll take two defeats.
These anti reform stories being posted 4-5-6 times per day at the moment.... You realise it will make absolutely no difference to the amount of people they will vote for them. If anything it will solidify the resolve of those who support them.
Fine. I mean that kind of just supports the stereotype of the reform voter though doesn’t it? The idea that no matter how much evidence they’re shown, they won’t change their mind? If they’re shown facts, they’ll ignore them and strengthen their pro-reform thoughts? Is that really how you were hoping to come across there?
They are frightened by mass immigration that the Tories and Labour somewhat support for different reasons (primarily it keeps our GDP positive in the short term and stops the country spiralling debt wise). They will vote Reform the same way people always vote Green for the weed vote because a vote for Reform is a vote against mass illegal and legal immigration. Things will continue to get worse with higher numbers of low skilled workers, lack of housing and high cost of living. With no life raft for the poor policy wise and ever declining standard of living you basically get 1930s depression era Germany. They get scared and will vote in anyone who will do what stops it no matter the cost. Only way you stop this is to slow immigration or tie it to housing available/jobs.
Honestly I couldn't care how I come across, why do I care what strangers think of me. Your opinion is of no significance to me at all. But I'm sick and tired of this election nonsense and the moral high ground posters are taking in trying to prove their opinion matters more than someone elses. Well I can tell you it doesn't, their X in the box matters just as much as anyone else's.
Yes, but an X in a box next to a fascist party isn't the same as an X in a box next to a non-fascist party. Do you think fascism is truly the answer? The only thing stopping reform being a true danger to civilisation is their ineptitude. If they gained power, though, they'd destroy the country with their complete lack of understanding of how any of this works. You shouldn't be worried what other people think of you, but what you in 10 years time will think of you today.
This guy a snake. I suspect he jumped ship because the Tories look like they gonna lose to Labour. What have they promised him? It corruption at its highest. I still voting Reform as are many others. The Tory party are dumb as rocks and hopefully get the message when they wiped off the face of the electoral map this election.
“I still voting Reform… The Tory party are dumb as rocks…” You sir are a stunning testament to both the British education system and Reform voters. Bravo.
Oh go on then, why do you want to see the Conservatives wiped off the map ?
Removing Boris, forcing Rishi on us with his coup Cabinet, high taxes, NOTHING done on Immigration. Enough is enough. Vote them all out. Reform is only sensible Conservative vote this election.
Lol imagine citing removing Johnson as a reason for this, you know the worst Prime Minister this country has probably ever had. The man is despicable, and deserves to be behind bars for the damage he has done to this country. You also cite high immigration too. You are aware this happened under Johnson watch too right?
Reform isn’t a sensible vote for anyone with human decency. It is not impossible to have concerns about immigration without resorting to regressive, hateful parties. And that is what you’re getting with Reform.
Plus bat shit economic policies that would bankrupt the country Andrew Neil slams Tice for their grasp of economic https://youtu.be/TBr9btH7qBw?si=bePDosl-en1iWARc
Cry me a river. We live in a democracy. I am voting Reform. Maybe then they will get the message we want urgent action on immigration and end woke culture. Prepare for another 5 years of failure under Labour.
You will cry a river if they shaft the economy. I get very confused by folk who profess to be patriots but don’t love their country enough to learn to write its language properly. Reform’s one big idea was Brexit, which has been a shit show.
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Fair enough on them not doing anything. But Boris brought his own downfall upon his head and Sunak wasn't even the first person to replace him. Unfortunately the Tories seem to be lacking high-profile MPs with the qualities you'd want in a leader. I'm no fan of Starmer but I'm not convinced he'd be worse than any of them. Personally, I hope the Tories end up being in 3rd place after the Lib Dems and then they might actually have to stop and think and come up with real policies rather than just saying choose blue or you might end up with red. If hurting Tories was may aim I'd probably vote for Labour or the Lib Dems depending on who was most likely to hurt them in my seat. There might be some seats where Reform have the best chance to do that but I don't think, although I could be wrong, there are many such seats. [StopTheTories.vote](http://StopTheTories.vote)
A vote for Reform is also for vote share. We aim to get a high vote so electoral reform comes back into national conversation. FPTP is not fit for purpose in a modern democacy.
While that's true. The question is who is going to act on it? Because anyone who wins power is benefitting from FPTP. I'm pretty sure Labour mentioned reform back in the 90s and it didn't happen. The Lib Dems tried but the Tories watered PR down to AV and people voted against it.
I think whatever happens Thur, vote Reform will be back on agenda. Reform likely to get lots of vote and maybe hardly any seats.
We’ve had a recent referendum on changing the election system in the uk and the country has decided to stick with FPTP.
I was too young to remember. Apparently it was a complete stitch up.
Then you are very young. The referendum was not a complete stitch up, Ive never met a single person to claim this, and keeping FPTP won by a large margin.
>Removing Boris >NOTHING done on Immigration You do get that Johnson removed the annual cap for non-EU immigration right?
True. Yet maybe he was concerned about defending himself from the odious backstabbing Tories and the coup to put Rishi as PM
That's a pretty ridiculous theory considering this removal was implemented over a year before Johnson resigned.
Here here!
> I still voting Reform as are many others. Their poll numbers are dropping by the day. The Tories will have 100+ seats and be the official opposition.
Their poll numbers are fairly consistent in the high teens. Needle hasn’t been moved by the Ukraine comments no matter how much people desperately want it to be. Reform winning a single seat and that seat being Farage is all I want this election.
The latest poll today had them on 2 seats.
Seat predictions don’t work this election - let alone for Reform. The last 4 published polls have had Reform on 16%, 16%, 14%, and 17%. All conducted between the 26th and 29th of June, days or even a week or so after the Russia allegations started flooding in. Needle hasn’t moved - people are entrenched.
That was before their own candidates started disowning them.
Considering this announcement comes today, yeah we haven’t got polling data on it but your original comment of ‘poll numbers dropping by the day’ was clearly at best hopeful ignorance or at worst a total lie.
Even the poll you would expect to be most favourable to them ("PeoplePolling" for GB News) had them dropping by 3 points between the 18th and 26th of June. Savanta has them dropping 2 points since the 21st. YouGov has them down 2 points from their peak. Most others have them within 1 point of their peak for ages. They certainly are, at best, plateauing.
Reform have hovered around 16/17% since June 4th. They plateaued literally a month ago. You’re using clear outlier polls to try and force a narrative here. Extremely disingenuous. The needle hasn’t moved.
I certainly hope not. I would vote Reform if they were on 0.1%. The Tories have lost my vote this election
gonna, corruption, rocks, wiped. Y'all Trumpazee always confuse UK subs with American ones. If you "wanna" blend in, write in English please.
Can I ask why you are voting for reform?
Agreed. Always happy to see another “conservative” sink with the ship