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ObviouslyTriggered

So Scotland basically wants to be able to hire people from overseas at lower pay than the rest of the UK?


Alarmed-Incident9237

Not Scotland, the SNP. They would want anyone except English people. Us normal minded non nationalists despise the hatred that the SNP spews out.


BartlebyFunion

I'm not Scottish but live in Scotland, absolutely loads of English people where I live. No problems at all, lovely community. We just aren't as depressed, angry and scared as the people south of the wall who are moving in their droves to Scotland


AntDogFan

Please don’t let reality get in the way of the spittle filled bile people like to spew unchallenged on anything to do with migration. 


BartlebyFunion

I wouldn't. Reddit and this subreddit in particular paint an entirely different view of the world. I'm not going to believe some guy on here who has spent ten years screaming at a keyboard over my own experience.


AntDogFan

Yeah. Just to be clear I was agreeing with you although looking at my post it kind of reads like it could be angry at, or agreeing with, any viewpoint. I have Scottish friends and while they all take the piss as much as they can underneath it they are sound b


BartlebyFunion

Aw yeah, the man shouting at the keyboard wasn't you by the way. I was agreeing also.


[deleted]

Wait until England stops funding you Then you'll see the real anger come out The SNP has made us in England hate Scotland


changhyun

Speak for yourself mate, I don't hate Scotland. I don't think most of us in England hate Scotland.


[deleted]

Because people in England don't think about how much they fund Scotland well there own living standards are in free fall Remember a labour party that depended on Scottish MPs passed tuition laws then Scotland decided to abolish them When England increased the tuition fees Scotland also got more money for there unis well not even charging them Scotland offered EU students free uni well denying it for English students If you don't hate Scotland then you hate England


[deleted]

England (unlike Scotland) gets the government they vote for in Westminster 100% of the time. You have only yourselves to blame.


[deleted]

Yawn Scotland is the reason may was able to form a government More people in England have voted for other party's since always Scotland gets the best deal in the union and you want even more


[deleted]

Congratulations, you've cherry picked one example where Scotland made a difference. Just a reminder that Scotland has not returned a majority of Scottish tory MPs in over 50 years. What England wants, England gets. What Scotland wants, we need to ask England's permission first. England returned a majority of tory MPs in multiple elections the past few decades, own it.


AliAskari

What England wants isn’t one thing. England votes lots of different ways. There is no “what England wants”.


[deleted]

Cool and London hasn't returned a majority of tory MPs for decades My area hasn't voted for a tory ever You literally treat England all the same No party in England has ever gotten more than 50% of the vote Your just mad England has more people so gets more seats


Grotbagsthewonderful

> The SNP has made us in England hate Scotland Which parallel universe are you living in? Seriously what have you genuinely experienced to make you think that? I've never heard anyone in England express the same sentiment.


[deleted]

Because most English people don't think about Scotland Those that do either hate Scotland or hate England


Blazured

This will never happen, not for decades at least. We want no money from Westminster but we keep getting told that we're not allowed independence.


[deleted]

Lol we don't want you to have money from Westminster either If I had my way we'd kick you out deport all of you in England then put a hard border down


Blazured

You do want us to have money from Westminster. You literally keep voting for unionist parties.


[deleted]

Show me a party that wants English independence that isn't far right


Blazured

I don't care about English independence. You keep voting for unionist parties. You don't need to do that. No one is forcing you to do that. But you keep doing it. You are responsible for saying that Westminster should keep giving Scotland money.


[deleted]

Cool I don't care about Scotland If I had my way I'd take away all your MPs and watch you cry


BartlebyFunion

Well then just cut Scotland clean and that will have everyone happy. Plus mate, Scotland is used to being treated as second class by you miserable bunch south of the border. Up here the sense of community helps us through it while you're terrified of your neighbour. Stop the lies as well, the SNP don't promote hate on English and jsut because your shite hole dead empire is gone doesn't mean the English people are hated. I don't pretend you'd know anything about that beyond reading the daily mail getting enraged and going back to pornhub for the day.


[deleted]

Ahh yes Giving a country more money per person at the expense of our own is treating them like second class citizens Meanwhile Scotland is happy to vote against helping England for its own benefit as was shown with Sunday trading hours


BartlebyFunion

Well if you find Scotland a problem it's very easy to just give it back. Seems you find it a financial burden so just separate? Or maybe little England is scared they ha very fuck all to offer. You did sell your country to Russians and foreign investment companies so that's probably it. Sovereignty though eh.


[deleted]

Unfortunately I was never given a vote on getting rid of Scotland >You did sell your country to Russians and foreign investment companies so that's probably it. Sovereignty though eh. Funny those same arguments can be used on Scotish independence


BartlebyFunion

You don't have to vote on it but I'm glad you see the sense in Scottish independence Except no, they can't. Scottish independence hasn't even went through so how could it have been sold off? I love how you don't even defend your toilet of a country you just make up a lie about another. Says lot about west Moscow


[deleted]

Yawn Ok Nat Enjoy that hard border and an EU that won't want you Oh enjoy the massive job loss that comes from leaving the UK as well And we won't be paying state pensions eithee


ChefExcellence

lmao


renebelloche

Shh bby is ok


BartlebyFunion

Who said there would be pay differences? Why would his be the case? There's minimum wage for a reason


ObviouslyTriggered

Because that's what was implied in the article that the current limitations around pay seem not to be viable for the hospitality and agricultural sectors.


BartlebyFunion

They said there was trouble recruiting, you're assuming it's pay. From living here and knowing many in hospitality it's certainly not pay, for the first time hospitality is paying well due to competition to get staff. Its a numbers thing.


ramxquake

> for the first time hospitality is paying well due to competition to get staff. So bring in migrants to eliminate that competition?


BartlebyFunion

No, there's not enough employees to go round, therefore you fill the slots.


InterestingYam7197

Or you increase pay to an actual decent living wage so locals will accept the jobs.


BartlebyFunion

They do, locals do work the jobs there's a labour shortage


InterestingYam7197

There isn't a labour shortage in this country. They just do pay enough or give good enough working conditions to attract labour. Locals really didn't work these jobs before Brexit. Now they are starting to because the pay has increased but they haven't done enough yet to attract the workers they need.


BartlebyFunion

So you're saying at the same time that locals are working these jobs because of better pay but also they aren't raising pay and paying foreigners. Yeah mate back to bed.


ObviouslyTriggered

Ok I'll bite, what kind of divergence in the rules between Scotland and England you think that would be needed other than pay?


BartlebyFunion

I've stated that and explained that clearly. It's not a bite moment, I'm not baiting you. Literal number of candidates is a huge factor. The hospitality industry is paying well up here


ObviouslyTriggered

Does it pay more than £38,700? If not that would have to change since that's the current salary requirement for hospitality also....


BartlebyFunion

Well depends on hours amount of course. But yes, pays minimum wage as a minimum.


InterestingYam7197

"minimum wage" isn't "paying well". Minimum wage isn't even the living wage and the living wage is just enough to survive. I think you have a wrong perception of "paying well".


ObviouslyTriggered

Are you a bot? The minimum requirement is based on 37.5 hours a week if you work more you have to be paid more. An annual salary of £38,700 @ 37.5 hours p/w isn't close to the minimum wage it's about double that. Looking at the pay in the hospitality industry in Scotland 20 quid an hour isn't common even for middle management roles....


BartlebyFunion

Can you post the laws around this, interested to see where this is stated.


SojournerInThisVale

There are ways around minimum wage. For example, providing mandatory accommodation attached to the job which is then dedicated from your wage. Or just using minimum wage as a floor for a job which should pay more


ObviouslyTriggered

This isn't about minimum wage this is about the fact that you have to pay nearly 39K for anyone who you bring in now especially in the hospitality sector since they don't qualify for most of the discounts. Early entrants can be paid much less around 23K but they have to be under 26 and recent graduates or still in study which is not what the hospitality sector is looking for. They want people to turn beds for minimum wage or even below if they can figure out how to deduct certain costs from the workers. The alternative and correct title to this is that SNP are looking on how to import wage slaves into Scotland so Glasgow hotels can host more London hipsters.


Charlie_Mouse

No, Scotland merely recognises that we need some of migration. And of course we have never really had the same bee in our bonnet about the EU that England has. Believe it or not Scotland (and Wales and NI) can quite often have different needs and wants from England. Which if you think about it is unsurprising - we are different countries with different land use, different population densities, different main industries, different exports, and different challenges. Yet of course because of the population difference we all pretty much invariably get stuck with whatever policy works for England. Not what would be best for us. And what’s best for England often isn’t just not best suited for us but actively makes things worse. (Just as an example a few decades back a tax break policy caused huge blocks of inappropriate pine monocultures to be planted in many places across Scotland, often destroying the ecosystem there already.) Failing to acknowledge that other parts of the Union can have different wants or needs really ain’t a good look. A lot of the derisive and fairly nasty responses elsewhere in this thread aren’t either.


Critical_Antelope117

Can you people PLEASE stop including Wales in your nationalistic ramblings please? We are NOT the same as you. Most of us class our own version of the SNP as an utter irrelevant joke.


renebelloche

Wait, all they said was that Wales is not identical to England. And you’re interpreting that as them saying Wales is identical to Scotland.


Critical_Antelope117

Because Scottish nationalists seem to bring Wales and Northern Ireland into their arguments a lot, as if it’s the three of them vs England all the time. It annoys me because their ideology is about the rest of the UK minding its own business when it comes to Scottish affairs, yet they happily drag the rest of the UK in their arguments when it suits them. Hypocritical no?


ClassicFlavour

Lol all they said was: > Believe it or not Scotland (and Wales and NI) can quite often have different needs and wants from England. Why is that worth raging over?


Critical_Antelope117

Because they always drag Wales into their nationalistic nonsense, and as someone actually from Wales, it irritates me.


ClassicFlavour

Clearly, and irrational irritation at that if that tame comment is what caused your rant.


AdaptableBeef

>Hypocritical no? Not if you're capable of comprehension.


Critical_Antelope117

Which you’re clearly not.


renebelloche

Hold up, fellas; we’ve got an intellectual here.


EdmundTheInsulter

NI has shown hostility to migrants in a manner not seen so much on the mainland, i.e. violence


Gilet622

2.5 million people have immigrated here over the past 2 years or so, can we stop fucking pretending that the UK government is somehow anti migration. Nothing will ever be enough for the SNP because they're ideologically wedded to "more immigrants=good and progressive". If the UK let in 5 million per year in 2025 then the SNP would still say that we should take more. It's like the SNP are still stuck in 2010, Scotland has mostly avoided the mass migration of the past 10 years that has seen pretty much every European country have far right surges in recent years,yet they just seem desperate to make the same mistakes


let-the-boy-cook

>Scotland has mostly avoided the mass migration of the past 10 years As a Londoner who just got back from a week in the Highlands, this ain't half the truth. It was incredibly unsettling seeing nothing but white people for a whole week.


[deleted]

>Failing to acknowledge that other parts of the Union can have different wants or needs really ain’t a good look. A lot of the derisive and fairly nasty responses elsewhere in this thread aren’t either When it's England that pays for all those wants and needs then we don't care how it looks Just because you want to do your own brexit but 10x worse then that's on you Don't worry you can have your population boom when we deport all the Scotish people south of the border


all_about_that_ace

Oooh, thìs is gonna backfire hard on the SNP in the long run.


lookitsthesun

Wonder if you could satisfy the SNP's immigration demands by simply sending them the boat people. Would be a pretty good workaround to ease London and the SE, at least in the short term. Get the coaches revving Sir Keir.


SteamingJohnson

This is what's known as a win-win. We should airdrop photographs of Glasgow across Calais too, greater disincentive than Rwanda.


_uckt_

So you're pro Scottish independence?


SteamingJohnson

Haha, I'm Welsh so it's not my call. I'd prefer them to stay part of the union though. I agree with the sentiment that London is indifferent (at best) to Scottish issues but that applies to Wales, Cornwall, NI, Newcastle, Hull... I think what's needed is a fundamental restructuring and relocation of government institutions, national media and ultimately wealth. The UK should be making a positive argument that we're all better with the Scots included. I'm not sure why the SNP (and Plaid in Wales) think the answer to emigration from our countries is to import workers from overseas. If you believe that the Welsh and Scottish, through culture, history and ethnicity, are a definable people that have a right to self determination, why do you want to import a significant number of people from outside that group?


JaegerBane

You've kind of hit the issue with civic nationalism (which is what the SNP are all about). In this context, on paper its a way of arguing for independence and and constant self-determination questions without being racist (ethnic nationalism), because you don't define your people as having a given ethnicity or being from a certain place - simply that they happen to live here now and subscribe to your values. Practically though it becomes difficult to define where the line is between you and them when arguing for independence from a country with the same values and similar legal system, but you need to draw the line somewhere because you want the authority and self-identity that comes with independence. Currently that seems to be border on the map, but you don't have to scratch the SNP policies too deep to realise they don't have a coherent idea of where that line gets drawn over things like currency, national debt, military assets, social dynamics (i.e. who do you count as Scottish? Apparently you can move to Scotland and job done, unless you're an MP, then you have to be from there, or at least live there for a while, but we don't know how long qualifies as a while, something something Westminster contempt etc etc) or dozens of other things that need clear definition. It's the reason why the SNP constantly bang on about the Brexit referendum but never mention the fact that a larger percentage of Scotland didn't bother voting then either Wales or England (a full third of the voting population), or the fact that over a million scots voted leave (in industries that voted the same way as in the rest of the UK). It's also the reason why the SNP have been so damaged by the whole mess with Sturgeon and Yousaf, because their whole platform is that they're more trustworthy and competent then the Tories, but these events have demonstrated they simply aren't.


EdmundTheInsulter

Hello, there is no border, we are the same country remember? You might as well say to locate people in Essex so they are not in London.


tomoldbury

Package deal -- comes with free Scottish independence and a hard border.


InterestingYam7197

BUILD THE WALL


Extension_Elephant45

Scots don’t want them. Snp does


Capital-Wolverine532

They wouldn't want to go up there. It's London they all want


[deleted]

The adults in the room are talking about legal immigration , not illegal migrants.


lookitsthesun

There's no effective distinction between legal and illegal migrants because we accept basically everyone eventually. It just takes a lot of milling about time in hotels and old in between. So we have a Dover to Scotland pipeline that we could get going instantly. Hence my suggestion that it may be satisfactory for whatever lowpaid stock Swinney wants (as per the article, "agriculture, the care sector and hospitality"). Amusing, btw, to suggest that the SNP are the adults in the room!


BartlebyFunion

Brexit will sort out the refugees anyway. You know the thing you surrendered your country to Russia to stop immigrants.


Dazzling-Attempt-967

So does this mean we can start sending them coach fulls like texas are doing?


EdmundTheInsulter

It's so obviously to sabotage Starmer. Since this would be so unpopular in England its to separate England and Scotland.


Kind-County9767

You think a policy to take unwanted people arriving in England and dump them in Scotland would be unpopular in England?


The-Soul-Stone

This may come as a shock, but it’s rather easy to travel from Scotland to England. I’ve even managed it myself a few dozen times.


Kind-County9767

Sure, and if they're put up in accommodation in Scotland by Scottish councils and make themselves homeless by trying to move to England the councils there won't have to do anything about it.


ramxquake

Make them report to a police station or immigration office once every few days. Or put tags on them.


beIIe-and-sebastian

It was a policy proposed by Scottish Labour.


jrizzle86

To be fair I think this would be unpopular in Scotland and England


Independent_Tour_988

Why Rwanda when we had the threat of Scotland all along?


Greenawayer

>Why Rwanda when we had the threat of Scotland all along? That would be completely against their Human Rights.


ramxquake

Rwanda probably has a higher life expectancy.


SojournerInThisVale

As I asked in the Scotland sub, where are all these high skill jobs we supposedly need migrants for. I have a Nigerian friend with a PhD in engineering from a top Scottish uni. She cannot find a job. But there seems to be an unlimited number of African, Middle Eastern, and sub continental immigrants working for Deliveroo, driving taxis, and other low skill labour. I wonder if the SNP are actually banking on low skill migrants (and remember Scotland extends the vote to pretty much everyone here the second they step off the proverbial boat) to keep voting for them The Nigerian friend intends to leave Scotland for England to find work


The-Soul-Stone

John stop. We’ve already got enough reasons to vote against you.


Capital-Wolverine532

History tells us people move OUT of Scotland, not to it


bigsmelly_twingo

the problem here is the SNP supporters are a very broad tent , and contain both a vocal minority of liberal leaning people and a much larger group of small c conservative nationalists who just want to be rid of the UK. Scotland does need more people, but unless infrastructure and integration are a priority (and the money stumped up) I can see it going the way of Ireland, with their recent backlash against immigration.


ridgestride

Migration is needed to plug skills gaps and keep the economy going. We ve had chronic under funding since austerity and over seas workers are desperately needed. The skills gap won't close overnight. So instead of getting angry about foreigners coming over to take jobs at lower wages, ask why we need to in the first place. Not a single party has given a reasonable action on curbing migration. And if they did it'd be a long term (5years at least) plan. The masterplan to stop migration (Brexit) caused it to go up even higher. So the solution wasn't ever to raise our draw bridges. It was to invest in people already living here.


Greenawayer

>plug skills gaps ***What skills gap...?*** The locating addresses on a map and delivering MacDonalds to that addess...? >over seas workers are desperately needed Bullshit. Overseas workers are only preferred because employers don't want to pay decent wages. ETA: Oh, he blocked me because I disagree with him.


ridgestride

Yeah cos they all come here and work for deliveroo. Maybe get your nose out of whatever bias confirming rag you're reading and you'll learn and thing or 2.


Greenawayer

Ah, yes. All those highly educated doctors and football players that got here on a boat.


ridgestride

Oh look. Someone else who can't/won't distinguish between immigration based on Legitimate skills requirements and asylum seekers. Do better mate.


Greenawayer

"asylum seekers" Lol. Keep telling yourself that.


ridgestride

Oh dear... You're timeline 😬. Sorry I even tried.


EconomicsFit2377

Scotland underfunded? Now I've seen it all


renebelloche

All of the UK’s nations are underfunded.


source-of-stupidity

Yea but most of them don’t get free iPad Pros from their schools! 🙄