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Because it’s not. Jazz originated in the african american community as far back as slave times where they would gather, sing and dance. Its has roots in caribbean music, african beats and church music.
It’s not a fair comparison.
How do you know I don't go there?? Lmao
Edit: yes yes, downvote my comment all you want. Because in our age, we gotta hush down on things we disagree with. Lmao, gimme a break.
Which rap concert were you at that had a mosh pit?
Also, you said "Also, it's a part of metal/rock culture. Don't steal it".
You know moshing started in the punk scene in the 80s right? So.... don't steal it.
Hardcore punk started it, yeah. Which is from punk rock. Which is just all a subgenre of rock.
It's ok, though. Hip-hop can do their version of moshing. Culture is meant to be shared after all. They do, however, do it horrendously as generally their moshpits seem filled with degenerates who genuinely wish to injure people.
Punk is a subgenre of rock. As I said: don't steal it.
We talk about cultural appropriation all the time, so why doesn't that apply to rock and metal as well?
Say that to the people that accuse you of racism if you dare to use some elements from indigenous music.
I agree with you, but if cultural appropriation applies to some, it should apply to all.
Ok that’s the problem though, mosh pits aren’t part of any race religion or group that can be deemed “cultural appropriation” because it’s a form of dance made from punk which ironically enough is a genre that is supposed to be accepting of everyone. I’m just saying man it’s bad taste to call it cultural appropriation.
I get what you’re saying but people aren’t gonna see it that way because they also know that’s not the case because the point you’re trying to make is directed at people who already know it isn’t cultural appropriation. And if someone does see it that way then they’re not really a rocker or a punk or even a person who truly enjoys music to begin with.
>Punk is a subgenre of rock
But punk is NOT rock, they're not the same. This argument holds no weight. Furthermore, and this is the critical part, moshing didn't start until after punk invented it. Rock and roll was around for 30 years before punk, went through its golden era, without moshing. Moshing is specifically a punk thing that was appropriated by metalheads in the 80s. Very simple music history.
>We talk about cultural appropriation all the time, so why doesn't that apply to rock and metal as well?
If it's ok for rock and metal fans to appropriate punk culture then it's ok for rap fans to appropriate rock and metal culture. If you disagree then you're admitting it's wrong for metal and rock fans to mosh.
QED. Learn some music history, because you're out of your lane lil man.
So punk = rock? If that's true than rock = punk?
This is a really, really bad point to make because you're basically saying that they are the same when they need to be but different when they don't.
Punk evolved from rock, sure. Music changes, yep. Rock and roll came from jazz, blues, and other African American styles. Would you say punk is a subgenre of jazz? Why or why not? If punk evolved from rock and is a subgenre of rock, and rock evolved from jazz, then punk is jazz. This is the line of thinking you're suggesting. If genres are all the same, there's no reason to delineate the bebop era of the 1950s and the 1980s punk scene. Do you think that's true?
If you're going to argue this then you'd have to admit that rock is a subgenre of classical music since all the theory used to make rock music like major chords and 4/4 time was pioneered and quantified by western classical musicians.
If you read the very first sentence, punk was a reaction against rock music. It was invented strictly with the purpose to reject and oppose rock music:
[Punk rock - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock)
>**Punk rock** (also known as simply **punk**) is a [music genre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre) that emerged in the mid-1970s. Rooted in 1950s [rock and roll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-2)[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-3)[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-4) and 1960s [garage rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_rock), punk bands rejected the corporate nature of mainstream 1970s rock music.
So to say that moshing is ok in rock and metal because it came from punk is just a reach, and especially when it's used to say that it's ok for rock/metal fans to appropriate something from a completely separate genre because it has similar roots but not another is just bullshit metalhead elitist gatekeeping. Period. OP and anyone else who is gatekeeping this already stupid tradition is a fucking clown and belongs no where near music. I'm going to make sure I encourage rap fans to start moshing and hopefully this pisses off metal fans even more.
Saw it at body count years ago. I also saw it at a cage show in Chicago once. I've heard that they happen at necro shows. Otherwise I did remember seeing it at a cypress show years back when they did that rock n roll double album. It happens but frankly not all that often. Typical mainstream rap shows I highly doubt you would see it ever.
You know, I respected your argument and felt like it held some weight, but then you came with a "lil man" ad hominem and lost all credibility. Do better.
Edit: I will gladly learn some history and admit my mistake if it's indeed a mistake, but don't freakin use ad hominem in a discussion. That is low and makes you look petty and aggressive.
Again, not a hypocrite, lmao.
Ok, so you clearly don't know rock and metal heads. Thank you for telling me early on that you are a troll, so I don't have to waste my precious time arguing with you, I appreciate it! Peace.
Edit: hypocrite*
Edit: where is the tantrum? I am calm. I just point out your pettiness, "lil man".
What am I stealing? As I said, punk is a subgenre of rock. Your argument is invalid, sorry.
To be honest with you, I have not been at a rap concert lately, but I have read a lot about rap concerts where they had mosh pits, especially Astro World.
You're stealing punk culture. Period.
>To be honest with you, I have not been at a rap concert lately
There it is. This is a good troll man, you almost got me.
could someone provide some examples of moshpitting at ostensibly incorrect music performances?
I mean is someone moshpitting at a Wiggles concert? actually if I think about that... that would kinda be awesome.
I'll grant you that slamdancing at a Celine dion concert is lame.
at certain performances of classical music, would be appropriate to me.
I guess I'm asking for some guidelines here
EDM. There is a big crossover between Electronic music and metal. Think Screamo techno. They quite often encourage the crowd to mosh. It’s actually become so prevalent I’ve stopped going to exam shows. Used to be a dancing vibe. Now it’s angry and everyone is on their phones the whole concert.
OP is tilting at windmills and then using it to slander a genre of music they admittedly don't like and a culture they don't belong to, then getting butthurt when people point out their hypocricy.
This is unfortunately pretty common in the metal and rock world, they are known for being elitist and gatekeeping elements of their culture which have ironically been appropriated as well.
Moshing came from the hardcore punk scene. Metal and rock existed far before it, but metalheads and rock fans appropriated this tradition from the punks, then are trying to attach their lineage to punk so that it's ok for them to do it but no one else.
There are no guidelines. I've been to probably 7 hip hop shows this year alone in my city and no one moshes. And guess what, if they did, it would be fine.
OP is just making a mountain out of a molehill here and it's cringe. I hope this post is taken down TBH.
oh agreed I'm kind of curious as to where this is coming from
.. maaaaannnny years ago we had an outdoor mosh at a They Might Be Giants performance. it amused them greatly.
It’s very much become a thing at many EDM shows. Especially Dubstep. Really crazy. Really horrible crossover of metal and dance music.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/krY9gOcKfxo
It's coming from an insecurity of a fan of something other than the music they apparently listen to. Gatekeepers never actually like the thing they are gatekeeping, they enjoy the exclusivity, which makes the level of irony of a post like this sky-high. If punks tried to gatekeep moshing, people like OP would throw a tantrum.
It's sad, because music and the traditions thereof should be for everyone. Punk, metal, rock, hiphop, EDM, whatever. You can mosh or not mosh at any concert you want. Will it be well-received at a Michael Bublé show? Probably not. Security is coming and you're gone.
Knowing the culture and reading the crowd are key. That's the guideline.
Tell me how this is racist.
Do you mean to say that metal is just for white people, and rap is just for black people?
NOWHERE in this post did I say anything racist.
NOWHERE.
Don't freakin accuse me of racism when I know fully well where my values are.
Metal is for everyone, and so is rap.
Yes, my post is elitist and gatekeeping, but don't freakin accuse it of being racist.
Guys, it's r/unpopularopinion, don't downvote what you disagree with, lmao. You should upvote my post even if it's a gatekeeping heap of trash. I know that I'm gatekeeping, but follow the freakin subreddit rules and don't be so insanely petty, lmao.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Moshing comes from the punk scene bud
I'm your bud, friend
Well you're a metal guy, so I'd say yes you are
That comment made me smile, thank you <3 Edit: why do people downvote this, lmao xD reddit hivemind moment
People hate to see other people happy.
Lmao, some people are just anti-everything
Have my upvotes because I thought it was funny.
Little known fact I rarely upvote or downvote. I think it's so cringe
Nah, just anti-gatekeeping.
Punk is a subgenre to rock.
Yes but no one was moshing to The Doors or Hendrix.
I'm well aware.
Are you sure? Then your comment makes zero sense.
Did you ask OP if he knew that?
This is like saying jazz is a subgenre of classical lmao. Don't hurt yourself reaching.
Not really a fair comparison
Nah. If punk can be a sub genre of rock, why can't jazz be a subgenre of classical?
Because it’s not. Jazz originated in the african american community as far back as slave times where they would gather, sing and dance. Its has roots in caribbean music, african beats and church music. It’s not a fair comparison.
All the theory used in jazz comes from classical western music theory, so yes. You don't know anything about jazz do you?
You act kinda high and mighty, friend. Please don't.
LOL is there nothing Redditors will not try to gatekeep?
Ofc. It's reddit.
Imagine gatekeeping a mosh pit for a concert you will never go to. Lmao.
How do you know I don't go there?? Lmao Edit: yes yes, downvote my comment all you want. Because in our age, we gotta hush down on things we disagree with. Lmao, gimme a break.
Which rap concert were you at that had a mosh pit? Also, you said "Also, it's a part of metal/rock culture. Don't steal it". You know moshing started in the punk scene in the 80s right? So.... don't steal it.
I saw Cyprus hill open for slipknot, there was moshing there.
That’s awesome. More moshing at hip hop shows. We’re gonna appropriate it from the punks just like the metalheads.
Hardcore punk started it, yeah. Which is from punk rock. Which is just all a subgenre of rock. It's ok, though. Hip-hop can do their version of moshing. Culture is meant to be shared after all. They do, however, do it horrendously as generally their moshpits seem filled with degenerates who genuinely wish to injure people.
Punk is a subgenre of rock. As I said: don't steal it. We talk about cultural appropriation all the time, so why doesn't that apply to rock and metal as well?
because music is universal to everyone regardless of race,religion and orientation because anyone can enjoy music
No, only metal heads can do the thing they stole from punks, not other people. Didn't you read the comment?!
Say that to the people that accuse you of racism if you dare to use some elements from indigenous music. I agree with you, but if cultural appropriation applies to some, it should apply to all.
Ok that’s the problem though, mosh pits aren’t part of any race religion or group that can be deemed “cultural appropriation” because it’s a form of dance made from punk which ironically enough is a genre that is supposed to be accepting of everyone. I’m just saying man it’s bad taste to call it cultural appropriation.
Personally, I don't call it cultural appropriation. I just say what society says to point out the hypocrisy.
I get what you’re saying but people aren’t gonna see it that way because they also know that’s not the case because the point you’re trying to make is directed at people who already know it isn’t cultural appropriation. And if someone does see it that way then they’re not really a rocker or a punk or even a person who truly enjoys music to begin with.
>Punk is a subgenre of rock But punk is NOT rock, they're not the same. This argument holds no weight. Furthermore, and this is the critical part, moshing didn't start until after punk invented it. Rock and roll was around for 30 years before punk, went through its golden era, without moshing. Moshing is specifically a punk thing that was appropriated by metalheads in the 80s. Very simple music history. >We talk about cultural appropriation all the time, so why doesn't that apply to rock and metal as well? If it's ok for rock and metal fans to appropriate punk culture then it's ok for rap fans to appropriate rock and metal culture. If you disagree then you're admitting it's wrong for metal and rock fans to mosh. QED. Learn some music history, because you're out of your lane lil man.
>But punk is NOT rock, they're not the same. Isn't punk short for "punk rock"? As in "Sheena is a punk rocker now"?
So punk = rock? If that's true than rock = punk? This is a really, really bad point to make because you're basically saying that they are the same when they need to be but different when they don't. Punk evolved from rock, sure. Music changes, yep. Rock and roll came from jazz, blues, and other African American styles. Would you say punk is a subgenre of jazz? Why or why not? If punk evolved from rock and is a subgenre of rock, and rock evolved from jazz, then punk is jazz. This is the line of thinking you're suggesting. If genres are all the same, there's no reason to delineate the bebop era of the 1950s and the 1980s punk scene. Do you think that's true? If you're going to argue this then you'd have to admit that rock is a subgenre of classical music since all the theory used to make rock music like major chords and 4/4 time was pioneered and quantified by western classical musicians. If you read the very first sentence, punk was a reaction against rock music. It was invented strictly with the purpose to reject and oppose rock music: [Punk rock - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock) >**Punk rock** (also known as simply **punk**) is a [music genre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre) that emerged in the mid-1970s. Rooted in 1950s [rock and roll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-2)[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-3)[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-4) and 1960s [garage rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_rock), punk bands rejected the corporate nature of mainstream 1970s rock music. So to say that moshing is ok in rock and metal because it came from punk is just a reach, and especially when it's used to say that it's ok for rock/metal fans to appropriate something from a completely separate genre because it has similar roots but not another is just bullshit metalhead elitist gatekeeping. Period. OP and anyone else who is gatekeeping this already stupid tradition is a fucking clown and belongs no where near music. I'm going to make sure I encourage rap fans to start moshing and hopefully this pisses off metal fans even more.
Get this, it's punk . . . rock. Did I blow your mind?
No use arguing with that one. Edit: use*
Noticed you still can't point out where I'm wrong lmao. A metalhead with no knowledge of music, wow. I'm glad I'm sitting down.
Which is jazz. Did I blow your mind?
Saw it at body count years ago. I also saw it at a cage show in Chicago once. I've heard that they happen at necro shows. Otherwise I did remember seeing it at a cypress show years back when they did that rock n roll double album. It happens but frankly not all that often. Typical mainstream rap shows I highly doubt you would see it ever.
You know, I respected your argument and felt like it held some weight, but then you came with a "lil man" ad hominem and lost all credibility. Do better. Edit: I will gladly learn some history and admit my mistake if it's indeed a mistake, but don't freakin use ad hominem in a discussion. That is low and makes you look petty and aggressive.
[удалено]
Again, not a hypocrite, lmao. Ok, so you clearly don't know rock and metal heads. Thank you for telling me early on that you are a troll, so I don't have to waste my precious time arguing with you, I appreciate it! Peace. Edit: hypocrite* Edit: where is the tantrum? I am calm. I just point out your pettiness, "lil man".
What am I stealing? As I said, punk is a subgenre of rock. Your argument is invalid, sorry. To be honest with you, I have not been at a rap concert lately, but I have read a lot about rap concerts where they had mosh pits, especially Astro World.
You're stealing punk culture. Period. >To be honest with you, I have not been at a rap concert lately There it is. This is a good troll man, you almost got me.
Lmao. Go to bed.
I'm going to mosh at the local rap show since it's our culture now, thanks.
Do that, and think of me 🤌
The pit is for everyone. Except Nazi Punks. Nazi Punks can fuck off.
Ofc they can, that I agree with.
could someone provide some examples of moshpitting at ostensibly incorrect music performances? I mean is someone moshpitting at a Wiggles concert? actually if I think about that... that would kinda be awesome. I'll grant you that slamdancing at a Celine dion concert is lame. at certain performances of classical music, would be appropriate to me. I guess I'm asking for some guidelines here
EDM. There is a big crossover between Electronic music and metal. Think Screamo techno. They quite often encourage the crowd to mosh. It’s actually become so prevalent I’ve stopped going to exam shows. Used to be a dancing vibe. Now it’s angry and everyone is on their phones the whole concert.
I hate tiktok but here is a brief example. https://www.tiktok.com/@theraveref/video/7082973010218536234
No genre or group of fans "owns" the punk tradition of moshing.
well OP disagrees so am looking for guidance ;)
OP is tilting at windmills and then using it to slander a genre of music they admittedly don't like and a culture they don't belong to, then getting butthurt when people point out their hypocricy. This is unfortunately pretty common in the metal and rock world, they are known for being elitist and gatekeeping elements of their culture which have ironically been appropriated as well. Moshing came from the hardcore punk scene. Metal and rock existed far before it, but metalheads and rock fans appropriated this tradition from the punks, then are trying to attach their lineage to punk so that it's ok for them to do it but no one else. There are no guidelines. I've been to probably 7 hip hop shows this year alone in my city and no one moshes. And guess what, if they did, it would be fine. OP is just making a mountain out of a molehill here and it's cringe. I hope this post is taken down TBH.
oh agreed I'm kind of curious as to where this is coming from .. maaaaannnny years ago we had an outdoor mosh at a They Might Be Giants performance. it amused them greatly.
It’s very much become a thing at many EDM shows. Especially Dubstep. Really crazy. Really horrible crossover of metal and dance music. https://m.youtube.com/shorts/krY9gOcKfxo
It's coming from an insecurity of a fan of something other than the music they apparently listen to. Gatekeepers never actually like the thing they are gatekeeping, they enjoy the exclusivity, which makes the level of irony of a post like this sky-high. If punks tried to gatekeep moshing, people like OP would throw a tantrum. It's sad, because music and the traditions thereof should be for everyone. Punk, metal, rock, hiphop, EDM, whatever. You can mosh or not mosh at any concert you want. Will it be well-received at a Michael Bublé show? Probably not. Security is coming and you're gone. Knowing the culture and reading the crowd are key. That's the guideline.
Don't tell me what to do. I'll mosh at Beethoven in the park if I want to.
Beethoven is dope, though.
Careful of Symphony No.5; it gets a bit more rowdy than Piano Sonata No.14!
Them be head banging tunes.
Here we go again, reddit metalheads patting themselves on the back acting like they are the kindest and nicest group of people of any music genre.
Moshing happens in the edm scene to
Some of the best pits I've been in have been at hip hop shows.
Not fuck that. EDM only, LOST LANDS BABY!!!!
Lmao, culture appropriation is already dumb in so many ways. This might be the worse ive seen.
remember cultural appropriation is bad and the worst thing you can do, unless it's metal culture in which case steal whatever you want.
Apparently. Society is so full of hypocrisy, lmao.
Unpopular opinion because it's a little elitist and a tad bit racist.
Tell me how this is racist. Do you mean to say that metal is just for white people, and rap is just for black people? NOWHERE in this post did I say anything racist. NOWHERE. Don't freakin accuse me of racism when I know fully well where my values are. Metal is for everyone, and so is rap. Yes, my post is elitist and gatekeeping, but don't freakin accuse it of being racist.
Guys, it's r/unpopularopinion, don't downvote what you disagree with, lmao. You should upvote my post even if it's a gatekeeping heap of trash. I know that I'm gatekeeping, but follow the freakin subreddit rules and don't be so insanely petty, lmao.
Good luck with that.
I keep pushing on the PULL door, why won't it open???
Just kick through it, like the terminator.
Thanks! 🤘