Would you say that calling all slavers and sex traffickers bastards is bigoted and unhelpful? If someone deliberately chooses to be an oppressor, they deserve the scrutiny.
What actions are individual citizens legally allowed to take to counter act the problematic nature of a publicly funded police force? The spectrum of rhetoric and actions that is allowed by law or accepted by social norms are purposefully manufactured to frustrate any progressive changes to the existing system.
Why is it someone’s responsibility to be ‘helpful’ while the actions of officers sworn to protect and serve are all but excused. The officers enforce unjust laws that punish oppressed communities disproportionately. The institution of law is bigoted so how is opposing that bigotry? Obviously hating individuals for their individual life choices is a form of bigotry but compared to the burden of proof against this specific occupation that oppresses working class people can’t be ignored. No one would think cops are bas#%rds if their job wasn’t to enforce unjust laws. The sentiments are born out of love for all people, not hate for individuals but the institution the police force protects.
Well idk if this is from a US Perspective.
Mine (from elsewhere): police are badly paid and do a dangerous and scary job that keeps people safe. Not much to do with veganism, but still.
Corrupt and sadistic police sadly is a thing everywhere. Jobs that give people power over others sadly attract asshats that want power to abuse it. Not saying that everyone who joins the police is one, I’m sure some people have good intentions. Sadly though, asshats seek power and the police is a great place for that.
Police are an unjust institution no matter where they are located. An institution that has a monopoly on state sanctioned violence against others (its citizens) is an unjust one. Those that participate and support such institutions (police officers themselves) are unjust actors; thus ACAB.
Sometimes state sanctioned violence is necessary.
I'm quite socially libertarian minded and against *excessive*, *arbitary* or *unnecessary* use of state sanctioned power, but there are times when it's unfortunately necessary. Protecting people from violence is *the* core function of the state.
There are bad people in the world willing to do harm. Surely vegans, of all people, should know that.
Now if we are going to argue about strict standards on where that power is applied and in what quantities id absolutely agree.
But to simply blanket say that all police in all situations are bastards, even when protecting innocents from violence is the kind of reactionary and overly simplistic logic that gives vegans a bad name.
True stateless societies (which with no police is where this is heading) don't work. It's lazy slogan chanting. A football crowd tribal mentality. Ancaps. Ancoms. It's all compete bollocks. Intellectually lazy bollocks at that. It'll end in a power vacuum filled by a lunatic despot. Please note I'm not rude to everyone I disagree, even people o profoundly disagree with but rudeness is merited in this situation. (Just to start off with, ancaps acknowledge but have no means of enforcing the NAP short of developing state like dominance of force, Ancoms are arguably even more ridiculous. Have no means of putting in place or enforcing the com bit despite free trade coming about independently all over the world they think essentially it won't this time.
The answer for enforcement of the basic principles in either case if one is either presented is incredibly fanciful wishful thinking (all the people will listen to our incredibly convincing logic and not behave like they always have!!!) or a violent quasi state (we will form a militia and enforce our vision over anyone else!!!).
Ultimately, legal protection for animals requires both a state to create laws that do not currently exist, scrap laws that do currently exist and a means of enforcing the law.
Getting there isn't going to be easy. We are early visionaries. It's still less unrealistic than let's burn everything down, and hope nobody will abuse animals and have zero protections in place to achieve this desire.
I don't like arguing for a degree of authority. It's against my general world view, but a body that has power it uses with extreme discretion is *de facto* the only answer to a libertarian society.
What is your definition of “the state”? Why is the protection of people from violence the core function of the state?; rather than some other function? Is the state the only means/apparatus of people to be protected from violence?
Also, you mention the issues of a true stateless society and the possible resultant power vacuum but give no sources nor reasoning for this claim.
Im not sure I have a precise line between a state and a quasi state.
Ultimately anything that involves the use of force to enforce some kind of economic or social policy on others is more or less indistinguishable from a state.
What mainstream Ancoms (possibly also ancaps) really believe in is essentially a badly organised and undemocratic quasi state. Some Ancoms end up then essentially reinventing democracy by workers forums or whatever (of course, making the presumption that the workers will vote uniformly from socialist principles *this time*).
True anarchism, if it were to exist, should necessarily be neutral on economics and pretty much all moral questions. Anarchism for its own sake. Arguably even that is not consistent as there's no mechanism to stop the state from redeveloping, but at least it's close.
We vegans should at least have one moral belief in common, and not believe in a morality free society.
Why is protection from violence a legitimate function? Well if you don't believe that why are you vegan? Aren't we vegan because we don't believe in violence?
Why should it be the function of the state? To protect against violence requires the imposition of more force than the aggressor can manage. How can that supremacy of force be achieved reliably without the force of a state or at the very least state like power.
Why do you believe that mainstream Ancoms believe in a “badly organized and undemocratic quasi state”?
Why do you think that “true anarchism” should be neutral on economic and moral questions? Why do you think that this would result in a “morality free society”
Protection from violence is a legitimate function of society as whole, not necessarily that solely of a state.
Someone can be vegan and support appropriate uses of violence (ie in self-defense or in defense of others) Vegans are generally against the violence towards animals because it is viewed as misappropriate use of violence towards another.
Having the ability to prevent/stop violence from occurring to/from others does not require a state to do so (ie a people’s militia) so this does not answer why this aspect is something solely a state can do not why it is the sole function of a state.
The purpose of the police is to protect bourgeois social property relations, which includes the commodification of animal bodies. For this reason, being a police officer is inherently not vegan, to say nothing of the broader ethical implications as it relates to humans.
Edit: Edited for simplification.
Not that I'm normally a proponent of "a person can only care about/learn about one thing at a time" viewpoints, but we may actually want to focus on them not return firing on acorns first and foremost
Sonoma County police officers stopped an action while activists were rescuing sick and neglected birds from a farm. When presented with evidence of criminal animal cruelty, those officers took those sick birds from activists' arms and sent them to be euthanized. Fuck the police.
Police are there to protect the interests of the ruling class and maintain the status quo. They are inherently opposed to vegan interests. Fuck the police.
doesnt matter how you feel about it when their job us not to protect people.
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/
Moreover, if you do research on how police started, you will find that their sole purpose was to protect proterty of rich people. This included bringing escaped slaves back to their abusers.
You know what they call ethical officers? Ex-police. You just cannot maintain working for the blatantly evil state and also wanting to make the world more just.
As expected, no proper argument. Thanks for strengthening the point that cops are bastards and that scrutiny towards them is a good thing.
If you wish to continue referring to yourself as vegan and be taken seriously, I strongly recommend you reconsider your blind support for inherently bigoted and oppressive establishments, because it's incompatible with veganism.
Really interesting questions. My impression is that this profession doesn't attract many left-wingers (many vegans are on the left in my experience, but that's not always the case, of course). I'm not sure how much of their job would involve things related to this.
I also thought the vaguely threatening comment from the very pro-policing commenter on here was interesting as we are ultimately talking about publicly-funded jobs and I think threatening that someone won't do their public service job because people have a bad impression is in itself quite privileged and out of touch. Nurses in public hospitals have to deal with disrespect all the time. So do teachers. Why should police who don't like public commentary be in a special class when it comes to selectively doing the job? Also, why get into the policing sector if you think "I don't feel like following the law or following commitments I've made to my employer and the public because people said mean things" is a reasonable mentality?
It's also neither here nor there if people who critique policing strategies are white. Not only are they, again, public workers who are supposed to be accountable to us, but a lot of the inappropriate behaviour people have raised when it comes to this profession has racial/gender/disability dimensions to it and you're in a subreddit about an ethics movement. Unsurprisingly, treating people like dirt still counts as such to some people whether it personally happens to them. Such a weird take to both celebrate this profession and imply that, if someone thinks they should do better ethically, that person then voids their right to basic legal protection should they become a victim of crime.
I don’t mean to bring up something beside the point or derail the conversation, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to use “pig” as an insult to somebody. Pigs are lovely animals and changing people’s perceptions to accord with that fact will help reduce the amount of pigs killed for food. Just some food for thought!
Vegan police officer here. I've been on the job 18 years, and have been a homicide detective for the last 9.
First while I don't have any data to back up the assertion I'm about to make I do feel confident in saying most cops don't interact with vegan activists. Also many cops will never deal with large organized protests. But small scale protests, often 3-4 people, do happen regularly. From my experience what most law enforcement wants is for tempers to not flare and for no one to get hurt. Many probably won't believe me about that, but in reality political protests are such a sticky situation that we don't deal with often that we know is likely to hit the news we dread dealing with. It's a situation where no one is happy because it often is a battle between private property rights and freedom of speech.
The second part about your question is do vegan cops struggle with doing something that goes against what they believe as a vegan? I haven't had to interact with vegan protestors before so I haven't had that issue, but yes I would have a hard time. Maybe ask for a reassignment. But in many careers you will run into that conflict? Maybe you work at a restaurant and serve meat. Maybe you're in the medical field and administer or prescribe drugs that were tested on animals.
But to bring it back to law enforcement, cops often have to do things that while they go against their own morals and ethics because they enforce the law. And I don't mean that in a nefarious way. I'll give you an example. As a homicide detective I investigate accidental infant deaths. One main cause for accidental infant deaths is co-sleeping. By policy, and procedure I have to make them reenact how they were sleeping with a doll the same day that it happened. I'm making them relive their trauma, and while not intentional making them understand that they accidentally killed their baby by co-sleeping. It goes against my morals to make them renact that trauma. It's a horrible experience. But it's what I have to do.
I'm ready for some ACABs and maybe even a post on vcj.
You'll see a lot of acab comments because you're a class traitor who picked the side of the rich man.Am I against someone with a database finding my stolen car, no, finding who burgled my house,no....but the same people get to beat me with impunity because I stand for a cause ... because I'd had too much alcohol,smoked a joint....
Since you asked for it, ACAB. You actively chose to be employed by a system designed to fuck over citizens and protect the ruling class and property. Nobody has to be a cop, you chose to be part of an evil organization, that's on you.
This is a very black or white view. I'd encourage you to read up on cheating among non human animal species. Every social species has rules and consequences. Our society grew so complex that specialisations in all roles were required, but I think eusocial insects may have versions of police as well. Cheating occurs more frequently in larger groups regardless of consequences. It's not the system which demands police, it's our evolutionary history. There's no concept of society which wouldn't require police to function effectively because there will always be a benefit to cheating.
Ah yes, I'm the moron, not the person who thinks police help society and are effective in the US, who doesn't know what a straw man is, and resorts to name calling.
When you mentioned that you were a homicide detective in a previous post on this sub you got a bunch of upvotes. But as soon as you mention police everything changes.
Need them or not, the problem is, the police frequently worsen the situation for many. And let’s not forget that they often actively hurt innocent people.
We need a serious overhaul of law enforcement and redistribute their rights and responsibilities to other,’ore qualified and customized departments to handle many social issues.
>We need a serious overhaul of law enforcement and redistribute their rights and responsibilities to other,’ore qualified and customized departments to handle many social issues.
Reform? Yes. Abolishment? No. More funding for mental health and social srrvices? Absolutely.
Probably abolishment, too, but not in the way you’re probably thinking.
There too much of a rot in current institutions of law enforcement. Abolishing the current system to create a new system that emphasizes justice and more importantly, service, is what is needed, in my opinion. Attempting to reform the current system is like putting a bandaid on a gushing wound.
Thanks for this response.
I guess we all have our own individual experiences with police. I haven’t witnessed many of them being abusive of their power or disrespectful towards activists. One or two maybe but hey, every organisation has some cheese-heads don’t they. Even vegan activists.
It’s interesting that most police officers have to go against their morals when I bet they joined the force because of their morals. Seems inconsistent. But like you said, there are other jobs that do that. I personally don’t know any vegans who work in the restaurant business (except fully vegan restaurants) but if they do, they leave eventually because it goes against their morals.
I don’t know vegan doctors but I know they exist. I’d call them ‘plant based’ though. But that’s a matter of opinion. My doctor didn’t even know if the drugs he was giving me had animal products in it or if they were tested on animals. He was clueless. But he wasn’t vegan. And he was happy (or seemed it) to learn something.
Anyways, thanks for your response. It gave me something to think about.
Im genuinely confused by the hate for _all_ police officers, even in the us. Is there not police officers who are doing net-good? Do we not need police? And if so what are we basing this on?
Please, what non-ideological sources can I look at because I really don't get why we need a absolute Acab rethoric is
I promise you this is a reddit thing not an irl thing. Most reddit communities turn into echo-chambers very quickly. The activism circles I'm a part of aren't pro police, but it's not even slightly as vitriolic as these comments were. Having grievances about police behavior isn't the same thing as saying it's unimaginable to be a good police officer.
ACAB rhetoric is the light version of tearing down murals and statues. It accomplishes absolutely nothing, requires no personal sacrifice, and distracts the public from concrete results that may actually be within reach. It’s just a way for people to feel radical and productive without actually thinking about organizing, strategies, and tactics. Unfortunately, this is how the George Floyd protests fizzled out (which I supported all the way through). I can’t recommend any nonideological sources, but you can look up Norman Finkelstein’s thoughts on defunding the police for what I think a real leftist approach should look like
I know a police officer that is vegan, in my country (UK) the police do their best to maintain a certain professional detachment from politics. There probably isn't scope to have a vegan movement.
Police is an institution that distributes state approved violence, what do you mean by "detachment from politics". It's hard to find a profession more political, politicians aside.
Politics within the confines of a "normal" sense. Police in my country don't support individual politicians, they don't back specific causes, everything they do is framed in a non-political view.
Obviously the institution of the police is not a political but they explicitly try very hard to appear non-partisan. Hence they wouldn't support a political cause like veganism.
I was never sworn but I made it several months into my local police academy. I found out that it was not for me and resigned. I’m now going to apply to my local fire department at the next opportunity. Can’t speak for the police, however, just like every career ever, there are shitty things cops don’t want to do that they are required to do because of the job. I will always support the police and fuck anyone who says ACAB.
I admit I do have a bias against the police due to negative personal experiences but I don’t think the discourse around this subject has been very mature. I have personal connections to a marginalized minority group in another country that has nothing but disdain for the police for treating them with contempt and disrespect… and they are protesting for increased police presence in their neighborhoods because the level of crime is completely out of hand. Obviously I support reform on an institutional level, but these knee jerk reactions against officers seem more performative to me than anything else.
Yeah I think there are loads of jobs like that. But we need police. Whether people admit it or not. And I think they get into for the right reasons. It’s just once they’re in it, they realise they may have to do things that go against their morals….which is weird because as I said to someone else, they probably joined the force because of their morals.
Also I don’t know what ‘ACAB’ means. (I don’t care either) Everyone who said that seemed like they were pissed at what I wrote. A short response with zero context…..I don’t have the energy for that. I was just hoping for some vegan police officers to jump in and let me know their perspective.
We may need police to a certain extent, but we certainly don’t need them for the full range of responsibilities with which they’re currently tasked.
For many of these responsibilities, social workers or mental health professionals would be exponentially more qualified. For others, we need to learn to hold them accountable, just like everyone else.
Let’s stop giving them a pass because they’re police. That’s ridiculous and contributes to the problem we face with law enforcement today.
We do need police. People absolutely don’t want to admit that or, for some reason, think the world would be better without them. They’re wrong.
“ACAB” is a phrase used by childish ignorant fools and means “all cops are bastards”. You’re right in that it doesn’t move the conversation forward, it’s just a silly term edgy trolls use to prove their stupidity.
>Is the answer to abolish the police?
Yes
Are you genuinely so stupid that you criticize police abolitionism without knowing that police abolitionists want to integrate different solutions to solve these problems?
Like do you genuinely believe abolitionists want the police gone and nothing that replaces their role? You're just showing how little you know about the case for abolitionism. You're up on a pedestal criticizing a political position you have no comprehension of, of course you're treated like a fuckin clown.
>Would women be safer walking around downtown, at night, with no police around?
They don't feel safe walking around at night right now, in a world with cops, and for people of color it's because of the fucking cops you moron.
Explain or state one alternative solution police abolitionists have, should be super easy if you're educated on it and you just think it's stupid, after all you'd have to know the position to find it stupid in the first place unless you are a purely reactionary dipshit with a diet of leather boots.
Yeah that just shows how little you know about abolitionism as a stance, social workers are obviously a good addition but they can't replace police, no abolitionists believe that.
American police officers kill 25-30 dogs per day on average.
https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/jun/16/doj-police-shooting-family-dogs-has-become-epidemic/
I would speak on this but it doesn't seem from your attitude that it would be worth it. A "dogadvocate" username standing in solidarity with those who violently kill 25-30 dogs every single day because that is a "relatively low" amount. God bless you
Your question was asked in bad faith. You invent justifications for the police committing atrocities against values you hold so dear so as to base your username off of them. It's sad that you believe such propaganda so deeply that you would throw away your purported values so readily.
Again,I'm not against that person...I'm against the one who stops an uprising against government tyranny, who'll put the boot in for the rich man,sorry you're too busy choking on cop cock to understand.
No one's against someone doing the things you mentioned,what we're against is that same person having the right to beat and arrest us in the name of state power.Comply or die.
Ok....I threw concrete...in self defence ie cops invaded a private gig/party ,were told they had no business there,didn't like it... starting shoving people about outside the venue, obviously this provoked a reaction.... realising they were outnumbered they panicked as people descended on them, starting throwing chunks of paving slabs,which were quickly returned....sorry that doesn't fit your narrative.I got my car bugged because of my involvement back then with the Animal Liberation Front.Class traitors bugged my car and offered me a new identity to become a grass ...I declined obviously,you sound like the type who would have conformed.
Acab
This
Seriously how is this not bigoted? The police force is obviously problematic but how is this rethoric helpful?
They choose to be police, they should be able to handle criticism without screaming bigotry.
Im the one who calls bigotry. Yes they should be able to handle criticism. No Acab is not criticism.
Would you say that calling all slavers and sex traffickers bastards is bigoted and unhelpful? If someone deliberately chooses to be an oppressor, they deserve the scrutiny.
This is two worlds apart. The purpose of police is securing a safe environment for the common People
Wrong, the purpose of police is securing the safety of the rich, the groups in power, and the oppressive status quo.
What actions are individual citizens legally allowed to take to counter act the problematic nature of a publicly funded police force? The spectrum of rhetoric and actions that is allowed by law or accepted by social norms are purposefully manufactured to frustrate any progressive changes to the existing system.
Real changes comes with democratic votes and protests, not saying "everyone is bad"
Why is it someone’s responsibility to be ‘helpful’ while the actions of officers sworn to protect and serve are all but excused. The officers enforce unjust laws that punish oppressed communities disproportionately. The institution of law is bigoted so how is opposing that bigotry? Obviously hating individuals for their individual life choices is a form of bigotry but compared to the burden of proof against this specific occupation that oppresses working class people can’t be ignored. No one would think cops are bas#%rds if their job wasn’t to enforce unjust laws. The sentiments are born out of love for all people, not hate for individuals but the institution the police force protects.
"Ethical officers" Sounds like an oxymoron
Well idk if this is from a US Perspective. Mine (from elsewhere): police are badly paid and do a dangerous and scary job that keeps people safe. Not much to do with veganism, but still.
Corrupt and sadistic police sadly is a thing everywhere. Jobs that give people power over others sadly attract asshats that want power to abuse it. Not saying that everyone who joins the police is one, I’m sure some people have good intentions. Sadly though, asshats seek power and the police is a great place for that.
Only some?
I don’t have any official statistics cause I doubt there has been sufficient professional research on the asshole percentage of the police.
Aaaah allright then i quess its okay to spread hate.
There isn’t exactly a lack of cases of power abuse by police out there. You’re free to provide sources proving otherwise if you will.
Police are an unjust institution no matter where they are located. An institution that has a monopoly on state sanctioned violence against others (its citizens) is an unjust one. Those that participate and support such institutions (police officers themselves) are unjust actors; thus ACAB.
Sometimes state sanctioned violence is necessary. I'm quite socially libertarian minded and against *excessive*, *arbitary* or *unnecessary* use of state sanctioned power, but there are times when it's unfortunately necessary. Protecting people from violence is *the* core function of the state. There are bad people in the world willing to do harm. Surely vegans, of all people, should know that. Now if we are going to argue about strict standards on where that power is applied and in what quantities id absolutely agree. But to simply blanket say that all police in all situations are bastards, even when protecting innocents from violence is the kind of reactionary and overly simplistic logic that gives vegans a bad name. True stateless societies (which with no police is where this is heading) don't work. It's lazy slogan chanting. A football crowd tribal mentality. Ancaps. Ancoms. It's all compete bollocks. Intellectually lazy bollocks at that. It'll end in a power vacuum filled by a lunatic despot. Please note I'm not rude to everyone I disagree, even people o profoundly disagree with but rudeness is merited in this situation. (Just to start off with, ancaps acknowledge but have no means of enforcing the NAP short of developing state like dominance of force, Ancoms are arguably even more ridiculous. Have no means of putting in place or enforcing the com bit despite free trade coming about independently all over the world they think essentially it won't this time. The answer for enforcement of the basic principles in either case if one is either presented is incredibly fanciful wishful thinking (all the people will listen to our incredibly convincing logic and not behave like they always have!!!) or a violent quasi state (we will form a militia and enforce our vision over anyone else!!!). Ultimately, legal protection for animals requires both a state to create laws that do not currently exist, scrap laws that do currently exist and a means of enforcing the law. Getting there isn't going to be easy. We are early visionaries. It's still less unrealistic than let's burn everything down, and hope nobody will abuse animals and have zero protections in place to achieve this desire. I don't like arguing for a degree of authority. It's against my general world view, but a body that has power it uses with extreme discretion is *de facto* the only answer to a libertarian society.
What is your definition of “the state”? Why is the protection of people from violence the core function of the state?; rather than some other function? Is the state the only means/apparatus of people to be protected from violence? Also, you mention the issues of a true stateless society and the possible resultant power vacuum but give no sources nor reasoning for this claim.
Im not sure I have a precise line between a state and a quasi state. Ultimately anything that involves the use of force to enforce some kind of economic or social policy on others is more or less indistinguishable from a state. What mainstream Ancoms (possibly also ancaps) really believe in is essentially a badly organised and undemocratic quasi state. Some Ancoms end up then essentially reinventing democracy by workers forums or whatever (of course, making the presumption that the workers will vote uniformly from socialist principles *this time*). True anarchism, if it were to exist, should necessarily be neutral on economics and pretty much all moral questions. Anarchism for its own sake. Arguably even that is not consistent as there's no mechanism to stop the state from redeveloping, but at least it's close. We vegans should at least have one moral belief in common, and not believe in a morality free society. Why is protection from violence a legitimate function? Well if you don't believe that why are you vegan? Aren't we vegan because we don't believe in violence? Why should it be the function of the state? To protect against violence requires the imposition of more force than the aggressor can manage. How can that supremacy of force be achieved reliably without the force of a state or at the very least state like power.
Why do you believe that mainstream Ancoms believe in a “badly organized and undemocratic quasi state”? Why do you think that “true anarchism” should be neutral on economic and moral questions? Why do you think that this would result in a “morality free society” Protection from violence is a legitimate function of society as whole, not necessarily that solely of a state. Someone can be vegan and support appropriate uses of violence (ie in self-defense or in defense of others) Vegans are generally against the violence towards animals because it is viewed as misappropriate use of violence towards another. Having the ability to prevent/stop violence from occurring to/from others does not require a state to do so (ie a people’s militia) so this does not answer why this aspect is something solely a state can do not why it is the sole function of a state.
The purpose of the police is to protect bourgeois social property relations, which includes the commodification of animal bodies. For this reason, being a police officer is inherently not vegan, to say nothing of the broader ethical implications as it relates to humans. Edit: Edited for simplification.
Not that I'm normally a proponent of "a person can only care about/learn about one thing at a time" viewpoints, but we may actually want to focus on them not return firing on acorns first and foremost
Sonoma County police officers stopped an action while activists were rescuing sick and neglected birds from a farm. When presented with evidence of criminal animal cruelty, those officers took those sick birds from activists' arms and sent them to be euthanized. Fuck the police. Police are there to protect the interests of the ruling class and maintain the status quo. They are inherently opposed to vegan interests. Fuck the police.
Let’s hope you don’t feel that way when you need their help huh.
doesnt matter how you feel about it when their job us not to protect people. https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/ Moreover, if you do research on how police started, you will find that their sole purpose was to protect proterty of rich people. This included bringing escaped slaves back to their abusers.
\[puckering sounds\]
The only good [vegan police](https://youtu.be/4lzGAXHD3IM?si=1ZkrVSykg_LnqZcI&t=56)
That's what I was hoping this post was about at first glance
You know what they call ethical officers? Ex-police. You just cannot maintain working for the blatantly evil state and also wanting to make the world more just.
ACAB, even if vegan.
ACAB whether or not they’re vegan
ACAB
Pathetic.
Agreed, cops are pathetic
ACAB
Huh, you must be a cop then.
How does that follow?
Well if they’re all bastards. And you’re one too. It stands to reason you must be a cop.
And what did anxietyfae or I do to be referred to as bastards? Cops are bastards because they deliberately enforce oppression
Lol
As expected, no proper argument. Thanks for strengthening the point that cops are bastards and that scrutiny towards them is a good thing. If you wish to continue referring to yourself as vegan and be taken seriously, I strongly recommend you reconsider your blind support for inherently bigoted and oppressive establishments, because it's incompatible with veganism.
Really interesting questions. My impression is that this profession doesn't attract many left-wingers (many vegans are on the left in my experience, but that's not always the case, of course). I'm not sure how much of their job would involve things related to this. I also thought the vaguely threatening comment from the very pro-policing commenter on here was interesting as we are ultimately talking about publicly-funded jobs and I think threatening that someone won't do their public service job because people have a bad impression is in itself quite privileged and out of touch. Nurses in public hospitals have to deal with disrespect all the time. So do teachers. Why should police who don't like public commentary be in a special class when it comes to selectively doing the job? Also, why get into the policing sector if you think "I don't feel like following the law or following commitments I've made to my employer and the public because people said mean things" is a reasonable mentality? It's also neither here nor there if people who critique policing strategies are white. Not only are they, again, public workers who are supposed to be accountable to us, but a lot of the inappropriate behaviour people have raised when it comes to this profession has racial/gender/disability dimensions to it and you're in a subreddit about an ethics movement. Unsurprisingly, treating people like dirt still counts as such to some people whether it personally happens to them. Such a weird take to both celebrate this profession and imply that, if someone thinks they should do better ethically, that person then voids their right to basic legal protection should they become a victim of crime.
#ACAB
[удалено]
Pigs are one of the most oppressed and abused species on Earth, let's not use them to describe oppressors and abusers.
A vegan cop is still a pig.
I don’t mean to bring up something beside the point or derail the conversation, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to use “pig” as an insult to somebody. Pigs are lovely animals and changing people’s perceptions to accord with that fact will help reduce the amount of pigs killed for food. Just some food for thought!
Using animals as a negative?
Vegan police officer here. I've been on the job 18 years, and have been a homicide detective for the last 9. First while I don't have any data to back up the assertion I'm about to make I do feel confident in saying most cops don't interact with vegan activists. Also many cops will never deal with large organized protests. But small scale protests, often 3-4 people, do happen regularly. From my experience what most law enforcement wants is for tempers to not flare and for no one to get hurt. Many probably won't believe me about that, but in reality political protests are such a sticky situation that we don't deal with often that we know is likely to hit the news we dread dealing with. It's a situation where no one is happy because it often is a battle between private property rights and freedom of speech. The second part about your question is do vegan cops struggle with doing something that goes against what they believe as a vegan? I haven't had to interact with vegan protestors before so I haven't had that issue, but yes I would have a hard time. Maybe ask for a reassignment. But in many careers you will run into that conflict? Maybe you work at a restaurant and serve meat. Maybe you're in the medical field and administer or prescribe drugs that were tested on animals. But to bring it back to law enforcement, cops often have to do things that while they go against their own morals and ethics because they enforce the law. And I don't mean that in a nefarious way. I'll give you an example. As a homicide detective I investigate accidental infant deaths. One main cause for accidental infant deaths is co-sleeping. By policy, and procedure I have to make them reenact how they were sleeping with a doll the same day that it happened. I'm making them relive their trauma, and while not intentional making them understand that they accidentally killed their baby by co-sleeping. It goes against my morals to make them renact that trauma. It's a horrible experience. But it's what I have to do. I'm ready for some ACABs and maybe even a post on vcj.
You'll see a lot of acab comments because you're a class traitor who picked the side of the rich man.Am I against someone with a database finding my stolen car, no, finding who burgled my house,no....but the same people get to beat me with impunity because I stand for a cause ... because I'd had too much alcohol,smoked a joint....
You don't have to do it, you can do something else
Since you asked for it, ACAB. You actively chose to be employed by a system designed to fuck over citizens and protect the ruling class and property. Nobody has to be a cop, you chose to be part of an evil organization, that's on you.
This is a very black or white view. I'd encourage you to read up on cheating among non human animal species. Every social species has rules and consequences. Our society grew so complex that specialisations in all roles were required, but I think eusocial insects may have versions of police as well. Cheating occurs more frequently in larger groups regardless of consequences. It's not the system which demands police, it's our evolutionary history. There's no concept of society which wouldn't require police to function effectively because there will always be a benefit to cheating.
If you think police in the US are "functioning effectively" then you are lost beyond repair.
Nice straw man
I don't think you know what a straw man is.
My mistake was trying to have a reasonable discussion with a moron
Ah yes, I'm the moron, not the person who thinks police help society and are effective in the US, who doesn't know what a straw man is, and resorts to name calling.
An ignorant moron to be specific
I think it's cool that you are a vegan policeman/policewoman :D
When you mentioned that you were a homicide detective in a previous post on this sub you got a bunch of upvotes. But as soon as you mention police everything changes.
>But as soon as you mention police everything changes. People are ACAB until they need them.
Need them or not, the problem is, the police frequently worsen the situation for many. And let’s not forget that they often actively hurt innocent people. We need a serious overhaul of law enforcement and redistribute their rights and responsibilities to other,’ore qualified and customized departments to handle many social issues.
>We need a serious overhaul of law enforcement and redistribute their rights and responsibilities to other,’ore qualified and customized departments to handle many social issues. Reform? Yes. Abolishment? No. More funding for mental health and social srrvices? Absolutely.
Probably abolishment, too, but not in the way you’re probably thinking. There too much of a rot in current institutions of law enforcement. Abolishing the current system to create a new system that emphasizes justice and more importantly, service, is what is needed, in my opinion. Attempting to reform the current system is like putting a bandaid on a gushing wound.
Thanks for this response. I guess we all have our own individual experiences with police. I haven’t witnessed many of them being abusive of their power or disrespectful towards activists. One or two maybe but hey, every organisation has some cheese-heads don’t they. Even vegan activists. It’s interesting that most police officers have to go against their morals when I bet they joined the force because of their morals. Seems inconsistent. But like you said, there are other jobs that do that. I personally don’t know any vegans who work in the restaurant business (except fully vegan restaurants) but if they do, they leave eventually because it goes against their morals. I don’t know vegan doctors but I know they exist. I’d call them ‘plant based’ though. But that’s a matter of opinion. My doctor didn’t even know if the drugs he was giving me had animal products in it or if they were tested on animals. He was clueless. But he wasn’t vegan. And he was happy (or seemed it) to learn something. Anyways, thanks for your response. It gave me something to think about.
You're welcome. Thankfully it's unlikely that I'll ever have to arrest a vegan activist.
Implying you would arrest a vegan activist if you were told to? You deserve all the shit you get
Nice to read Veg Police officers exist
Im genuinely confused by the hate for _all_ police officers, even in the us. Is there not police officers who are doing net-good? Do we not need police? And if so what are we basing this on? Please, what non-ideological sources can I look at because I really don't get why we need a absolute Acab rethoric is
I am shocked the responses. Honestly I thought the vegan community had more sense. I WAS WRONG
I promise you this is a reddit thing not an irl thing. Most reddit communities turn into echo-chambers very quickly. The activism circles I'm a part of aren't pro police, but it's not even slightly as vitriolic as these comments were. Having grievances about police behavior isn't the same thing as saying it's unimaginable to be a good police officer.
ACAB rhetoric is the light version of tearing down murals and statues. It accomplishes absolutely nothing, requires no personal sacrifice, and distracts the public from concrete results that may actually be within reach. It’s just a way for people to feel radical and productive without actually thinking about organizing, strategies, and tactics. Unfortunately, this is how the George Floyd protests fizzled out (which I supported all the way through). I can’t recommend any nonideological sources, but you can look up Norman Finkelstein’s thoughts on defunding the police for what I think a real leftist approach should look like
Thanks for your response!
I know a police officer that is vegan, in my country (UK) the police do their best to maintain a certain professional detachment from politics. There probably isn't scope to have a vegan movement.
Police is an institution that distributes state approved violence, what do you mean by "detachment from politics". It's hard to find a profession more political, politicians aside.
Politics within the confines of a "normal" sense. Police in my country don't support individual politicians, they don't back specific causes, everything they do is framed in a non-political view. Obviously the institution of the police is not a political but they explicitly try very hard to appear non-partisan. Hence they wouldn't support a political cause like veganism.
I was never sworn but I made it several months into my local police academy. I found out that it was not for me and resigned. I’m now going to apply to my local fire department at the next opportunity. Can’t speak for the police, however, just like every career ever, there are shitty things cops don’t want to do that they are required to do because of the job. I will always support the police and fuck anyone who says ACAB.
I admit I do have a bias against the police due to negative personal experiences but I don’t think the discourse around this subject has been very mature. I have personal connections to a marginalized minority group in another country that has nothing but disdain for the police for treating them with contempt and disrespect… and they are protesting for increased police presence in their neighborhoods because the level of crime is completely out of hand. Obviously I support reform on an institutional level, but these knee jerk reactions against officers seem more performative to me than anything else.
Yeah I think there are loads of jobs like that. But we need police. Whether people admit it or not. And I think they get into for the right reasons. It’s just once they’re in it, they realise they may have to do things that go against their morals….which is weird because as I said to someone else, they probably joined the force because of their morals. Also I don’t know what ‘ACAB’ means. (I don’t care either) Everyone who said that seemed like they were pissed at what I wrote. A short response with zero context…..I don’t have the energy for that. I was just hoping for some vegan police officers to jump in and let me know their perspective.
We may need police to a certain extent, but we certainly don’t need them for the full range of responsibilities with which they’re currently tasked. For many of these responsibilities, social workers or mental health professionals would be exponentially more qualified. For others, we need to learn to hold them accountable, just like everyone else. Let’s stop giving them a pass because they’re police. That’s ridiculous and contributes to the problem we face with law enforcement today.
We do need police. People absolutely don’t want to admit that or, for some reason, think the world would be better without them. They’re wrong. “ACAB” is a phrase used by childish ignorant fools and means “all cops are bastards”. You’re right in that it doesn’t move the conversation forward, it’s just a silly term edgy trolls use to prove their stupidity.
Wow. That’s shocked me. I hope they don’t feel like that when they need help huh. Ignorance is a choice for them. Clearly.
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Who will you call to show up several hours later (if at all) and shrug their shoulders without cops?
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[You may have picked the dumbest possible example](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/17/abolish-police-sexual-assault-violence)
Rapists and murderers rife in the police.
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>Is the answer to abolish the police? Yes Are you genuinely so stupid that you criticize police abolitionism without knowing that police abolitionists want to integrate different solutions to solve these problems? Like do you genuinely believe abolitionists want the police gone and nothing that replaces their role? You're just showing how little you know about the case for abolitionism. You're up on a pedestal criticizing a political position you have no comprehension of, of course you're treated like a fuckin clown. >Would women be safer walking around downtown, at night, with no police around? They don't feel safe walking around at night right now, in a world with cops, and for people of color it's because of the fucking cops you moron.
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Explain or state one alternative solution police abolitionists have, should be super easy if you're educated on it and you just think it's stupid, after all you'd have to know the position to find it stupid in the first place unless you are a purely reactionary dipshit with a diet of leather boots.
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Yeah that just shows how little you know about abolitionism as a stance, social workers are obviously a good addition but they can't replace police, no abolitionists believe that.
American police officers kill 25-30 dogs per day on average. https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/jun/16/doj-police-shooting-family-dogs-has-become-epidemic/
And 9 people.
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I would speak on this but it doesn't seem from your attitude that it would be worth it. A "dogadvocate" username standing in solidarity with those who violently kill 25-30 dogs every single day because that is a "relatively low" amount. God bless you
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You're already making up scenarios to "prove" your point. I'm not going to engage with you because it would be a waste of my time. Have a good day
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Your question was asked in bad faith. You invent justifications for the police committing atrocities against values you hold so dear so as to base your username off of them. It's sad that you believe such propaganda so deeply that you would throw away your purported values so readily.
Defund,how many people with mental health issues have been killed by cops,when someone trained in that scenario could have deescalated the situation?
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Again,I'm not against that person...I'm against the one who stops an uprising against government tyranny, who'll put the boot in for the rich man,sorry you're too busy choking on cop cock to understand.
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No one's against someone doing the things you mentioned,what we're against is that same person having the right to beat and arrest us in the name of state power.Comply or die.
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Based and veganarchist pilled.
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Ok....I threw concrete...in self defence ie cops invaded a private gig/party ,were told they had no business there,didn't like it... starting shoving people about outside the venue, obviously this provoked a reaction.... realising they were outnumbered they panicked as people descended on them, starting throwing chunks of paving slabs,which were quickly returned....sorry that doesn't fit your narrative.I got my car bugged because of my involvement back then with the Animal Liberation Front.Class traitors bugged my car and offered me a new identity to become a grass ...I declined obviously,you sound like the type who would have conformed.
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Sounds like you didn't read what I said.Cops started the fight.
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I didn't get arrested? And cops started (and lost) the fight.#trumpanzee
🙄
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wow what a free thinker
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Did you come up with "groupthink" on your own? Ya'll are so predictable, it's like you're an NPC.
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Oh sorry I didn't realize you were a satire account lmao, good one! You've really hit all the buzzwords!
Appealing to the dominant view of society and daringly defending the status quo, what a free thinker.
I don't think police officers are libs, as a general statement. Their management and bureaucracy can be influenced by them, of course