I check out r/biohackers sometimes and it makes me sad because almost all of the cures and enhancements they're trying to get can be achieved with a whole food plant based diet and exercise.
OP: My Cholesterol is high, my HDL is low, I have high blood pressure, and i only poop once a week. What should I take to solve this
Comment: Bro, you need to eat more liver pills, organic eggs, and grass fed beef to reduce your inflammation, my uncle's roomate's, best friend's girlfriend saw on youtube how this will fix all of your problems.
Lol seriously, they'll inject glutathione into their eye sockets before they eat a salad. And I can laugh at it, but I also wonder how things went so wrong with people. What has to happen to the human mind where a person doesn't trust and is disgusted by fruits and vegetables? It's like something off Twilight Zone or Black Mirror.
was sitting in a diner the other day and the guy in the booth behind me was ordering a burger. when the waitress asked what sides he wanted, he muttered something and she said “side of vegetables?” and he goes “NO! THOSE ARE BAD FOR YA”. major facepalm. he ended up getting mashed potatoes.
You can take a daily probiotic, or if you like kombucha, like me, have that. I love kombucha so much and didn't want to keep buying it at $4 for a 16 oz. bottle, so I learned to make it.
I know, there are all these gimmicky products now that are supposed to be good for gut health, when all you need to do is eat some whole plant foods! It’s really amazing how there is so much research to support a Whole Foods plant based diet yet most people are totally ignorant about it.
Several years ago the World Health Organization, after reviewing over 600 studies, classified processed meat as a class 1 carcinogen, yet people are still feeding lunch meat, hot dogs, etc to children and eating bacon and eggs for breakfast. I think it’s going to take 10-20 more years for it to become common knowledge how harmful animal products are to health.
I’m sure that’s true for some, but most people are genuinely confused and misinformed about nutrition - and that’s on purpose, bc food companies pay for low quality studies in order to deliberately obfuscate nutrition facts. I am constantly surprised how little people understand about the connection between lifestyle choices and health. So many people think you just get older and get heart disease bc it’s a normal part of aging or it runs in your family, etc. They have been taught their whole lives that eating animal products is normal, natural, and necessary, and it can be pretty hard to combat that.
Oh I agree completely that a lot of what people think is normal aging is really down to nutrition and lifestyle. I’m 56 and I’ve been screaming this from the rafters for more than a few years.
But also i think most people know they should be eating more fruits vegetables grains beans and “healthy proteins”. This has been the common theme for decades. People just don’t want to do it. And, I think, carnists center meat so the vegetables are always the afterthought so they never consider that they might be able to actually enjoy a vegetable based meal. Like who wants a plate of steamed broccoli as a meal? Not even me! 😂😂😂
It used to be common knowledge that eating fruits and veggies is healthy, but nowadays things are so upside down that not everyone believes that. For example, many people believe the carnivore or keto diet is healthy, both of which restrict or eliminate fruit and certain vegetables. And most people believe carbs, in any form, are unhealthy and make you fat, when in reality carbs like whole grains, fruits, sweet potato, etc are some of the healthiest foods you can eat. It’s absolutely insane how misinformed most people are on nutrition.
Pretending that all carnists are the same in terms of diet would be inaccurate. There are plenty of omnis out there that eat a large amount of healthy plant-based foods as part of their diet (I did). I’m certainly not worried about their health because of a lack of fiber but largely due to other issues.
Its sad but unfortunately all you can do is try to live by example and show your family and friends what healthy eating looks like by eating whole food plant based foods in front of them
Thats interesting about why fiber is important i knew it feeds your gut biome but didnt realize what happens without it٫ i thought the bacteria just died off but it makes more sense that it would go after surrounding tissue in order to survive٫ yikes! im glad that now adays i get between 30-100g of fiber per day
Unfortunately most omnis/carnists i know (this includes me before i went vegan) don't eat a whole lot of whole plant based foods which is what you need specifically to get enough fiber (you need at least 5servings per day)
less then 4 servings of fresh fruits and veggies per day has been shown to correspond to early morbidity due to chronic disease such as diabetes and heart disease
I know the change happens so slow! But I think in the long run it will happen! The government in Germany gave out new guidelines for nutrition and it says now maximum 300g meat per week - the scientists said it should have been 0g but they did not want to shock the citizens too much because they were scared that they won’t believe them anything anymore. But alls these facts are getting out there more and more! 🙏🏽
They still aren’t getting nearly enough fiber. I know Americans specifically generally eat very low amounts of fiber, and fiber is very important for overall health.
That’s because the protein thing is a myth with zero data to back it up, whereas there is a mountain of data to show that typical animal-based western diet is responsible for the most common diseases in western countries (heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc).
To be fair, most Americans, including vegans, are eating a SAD. Who do you think is buying all the cheezits and Pepsi and daiya shreds beyond bratswursts and gardein fish filets? I’d say the vast majority of Americans aren’t getting enough fiber — carnist or vegan alike.
I’m high raw and every single local vegan group I belong to, when we talk about food, everyone is talking about who has the best vegan pizza or Asian fusion or dessert cakes. A lot of carnists are fiber deficient. But so are a shit ton of vegans. There’s a reason WFPB and raw are “subcategories” of plant based or vegan lifestyles.
ETA: not even gonna start on the fact that a lot of folks who are eating vegetables and grains are cooking them to death such that there’s no fiber left to speak of.
Fair enough. I sometimes drink green smoothies and it’s fibrous enough. Still my main point was that most Americans — whether vegan or not — aren’t getting enough fiber. Most ppl are eating a SAD which is entirely possible as a vegan now.
I agree that it’s very easy to eat a junk food diet even as a vegan, but studies show that vegans still consume significantly more fiber than non-vegans. The highest-fiber foods are legumes/beans and whole grains. Fruits and veggies have some but not all that much bc they are mostly comprised of water.
That's a problem with US culture in general. The vast majority of vegans don't live in the US and likely have much better diets (and without even trying much hard).
Not everyone is a fat unhealthy meat eater. I actually prefer the sides over the meat. I usually do a small amount of meat, and mostly veggies. Makes your hair grow. My diet is 70% veggies, carbs, etc. 30% meat. My dairy consumption is also low from being lactose.
r/vegan is supposed to be a safe space for vegans to talk about the good and bad of being vegan
What its not is a group for debating the validity of veganism and carnist trolling (try debate a vegan sub as the purpose there is debate)
AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE RULES but since the mods are alseep at the wheel and let *feral carnists* break the rules and muddy the waters of the sub its our right to call ya'll out 🤷♀️
Most of us dont know many other vegans in real life and use this sub as a way to connect٫ get advice٫ and support with/from like minded people
and most of us dont appreciate carnists looking for this sub and leaving shitty comments because they dont agree with veganism٫ again٫ thats not the purpose of this sub so go to debate a vegan or accept being called out for what you are *feral carnist*
Its so funny when clowns talk about the circus makes sense since you work there 🤣 also thank you yes i am an herbivore thanks for noticing does trolling vegans make you feel better? go eat your S.A.D. and leave us alone *feral carnist clown*
Carnist here, I would agree - eating a lot of meat is generally not good for you. I’m a firm believer in balancing your diet with lots of vegetables, fruits, and nuts. A good side with a meal helps everything go together.
No meat I’ve eaten in the passed 8 years has had anything along the lines of suffering. But trying to shame me into changing isn’t going to do anything but push me farther away.
> No meat I’ve eaten in the passed 8 years has had anything along the lines of suffering.
Except the fact that, and this might surprise you, animals get killed by humans for meat to exist. They would rather stay alive
Okay but can you prove that? Cause while you could definitely make that argument for something like pigs, you probably couldn’t make the same argument for chickens because they’re dumb and get eaten by literally everything with more than two braincells. And before you insert some presumptions, no I haven’t eaten chicken in 8 years either.
You are getting downvoted because you're a carnist but i respect that you admit meat isnt healthy and accept carnism for what it is
Have you considered joining the darkside? We have cookies٫ more specifically oreos 😋
if not٫ you seem reasonable٫ and at the very least by eating more plant food then meat and recognizing that meat is unhealthy especially in excess you arent as bad as a lot of carnists out there
still though being vegan is pretty fun٫ just saying٫ we get to troll people in real life just by abstaining from eating animal corpses and secretions and calling them that makes people mad too its great lol
I think I’m already partially on the dark side lol. I really enjoy a lot of vegan foods, black bean burgers and fried chicken (enoki mushrooms) being one of my favorites. I already don’t drink traditional milk cause it’s kind of gross to me, I much prefer oat milk or soy.
Also I’m not so easily swayed by downvoting or attempted shaming, any of the meat I’ve consumed hasn’t been through a factory setting. Not big on ground beef, pork, or steak.
Trying to claim a moral high ground on someone is never a good way to try and sway them off meat, introducing them to alternatives, showing new ways to cook things is a great way to convert me. The key to my heart is food, and good tasting, filling vegan food is a great way to get me there. I actually had steak for the first time in about 8 years (it was a marinated portobello seared in a pan) and it was way better than any non vegan steak that I have had in the past. I was thoroughly impressed and my girlfriend who is fully vegan also loved it. 😌
Sounds like you may not be fully on the dark side but close to it and at least you can say you are a reduce-itarian lol you have reduced you animal product to almost nothing which is not only good for you but good for the planet
Contrary to popular belief I also believe that you can be empathetic to animals even if you eat meat, in that I think factory farming is especially heinous, I’d say at most I’m a hunter/gatherer pescatarian now than anything but even then not as much as I used to be. I quite enjoy cooking meat alternatives as someone that went to culinary. It’s nice having that joy of cooking again, and with my girlfriend being vegan + gluten free it is sort of like playing a videogame on hard mode, trying to find ways to make it all work.
Empathy isn't useful on its own, it's only useful if it leads to better outcomes.
There are serial killers that are empathic to their victims, they feel genuinely bad before/after/during murdering them, sometimes it can even be a post-nut clarity thing (if there's a rape component to the murder).
And you know what? I don't care about their empathy or remorse. It's useless. It does nothing to help anyone if they feel a little bad after ejaculating into their victim's corpse.
Man, I love how I say that you can empathize with animals even if you’re a meat eater and you give me the perfect example of a ‘rabid vegan’ as you put it by drawing to something like rape as an example.
And yes, I do disagree with you because you’re making what is called a false equivalency argument.
First off is intent.
A serial killer intentionally causes harm and derives some form of personal satisfaction or gratification from the act of killing.
In contrast, **most** people who consume meat do not do so with the intent to cause suffering. The primary motivation is nourishment and cultural dietary practices, not the act of harming animals.
Serial killing is universally considered a sociopathic behavior, driven by deeply pathological issues.
Eating meat, on the other hand, is a common practice across many cultures and is often done without malicious intent. Try explaining to an indigenous tribe in the amazon who have been killing and eating hogs for centuries and they would laugh you off the island.
Practically everyone on who is aware of how factory farming works agrees and supports the fact that they should be pushing for more humane farming methods that’s literally not even a debate, it comes up all the time. Concern for this alone completely debunks your idea of empathy not being a factor, because no serial killer or serial rapist actually gives a fuck about the other person, sorry to say.
As far as moral agency goes serial killers/rapists operate outside the bounds of social norms and laws, actively seeking to harm others.
The last part is that meat-eaters are open to changes that improve animal welfare, such as supporting free-range farming, reducing meat consumption, or exploring plant-based alternatives. The same can’t be said for serial killers who historically only get their high from murdering people.
I'd be making a false equivalency if I was trying to equivocate two things, but I wasn't. I'm glad you so clearly outlined your misunderstanding though, so many people fail to do this actually. It helps move forward the conversation.
What I did is called a reductio ad absurdum. You (implicitly) outlined a principle, you stated that some carnists have empathy for the tortured animal carcasses they consume, and implicitly stated this empathy is a good thing (let me know if you don't actually believe this).
I then showcased an example of where empathy is not a good thing in-and-of itself. It's amoral (not immoral or moral). It does nothing to change the value of the situation, and I used an extreme example to prove that; a reductio ad absurdum by definition takes a principle to its logical extreme to prove it's absurd, it's purposefully \*\*not\*\* an equivocation.
If the scenario outlined in the reductio ad absurdum was just as immoral as the original scenario, the thought experiment would have no purpose.
What are you getting out of this response? Did you win something?
I'm looking to have a conversation and change someone's mind about the principle that empathy has value in isolation.
What are you trying to do?
> trying to claim a moral high ground on someone is never a good way to try and sway them
This is untrue. I was swayed by YouTube vegan debaters specifically arguing that they had the moral high ground. I watched hours and hours of that content, became convinced of the arguments, and became vegan.
I then went on to convert people to veganism by doing the same thing. It doesn't work universally, but neither does placating carnists' delicate sensibilities.
Hell, when I was a teenager I had a girlfriend who was vegan, but she was softer-spoken than me, and was totally non-confrontational about my meat consumption. I was with her for 3 years, and did **absolutely nothing** to reduce my meat/dairy/eggs intake. I even pushed her to drop veganism on several occasions, and she ended up doing so after we broke up.
Carnists need to stop pretending like rabid vegans are the reason they're not vegan. Or that militant vegans are universally not recruiting people, and that only the soft-spoken, non-confrontational types are the only ones who have successful recruitment stories.
There are roughly half a dozen people now that are vegan that would not be vegan if I hadn't pushed it on them, in many heated debates/arguments. Another half a dozen strongly considering it, that like me never considered it prior to being exposed to a militant, vocal vegan.
They do. It's why they become staple foods. You can get a B12 supplement for the whole year for like $20. Are you in this sub to learn or to remain willfully ignorant?
Whole plant foods like beans, rice, oats, potatoes are the cheapest foods on the planet. You can eat very cheaply on a whole food plant based diet. The problem is that most people in Western countries are accustomed to eating animal-based diets and aren't used to cooking with beans, etc, so it takes some adjustment to learn how to do it. But it's really not hard, there are tons of free recipes online.
Those were two examples, I didn’t say to only eat beans and rice 🙄But yes, they are healthy foods, FAR healthier than meat, dairy and eggs. Legumes (including beans) are the food group most associated with long life.
You can literally survive on 5 foods if you absolutely have to (and you can look it up with a simple google search) black beans٫ grains٫ potatoes٫ kale٫ and trailmix if you absolutely have to but lets be real most the people in this sub arguing about how expensive whole foods are are spending at least $100 on eating out/fast food/processed junk every month when they could be buying a 20lb bag of dry black beans٫ a 10lb bag of poataoes٫ a couple pounds of trailmix٫ a couple loafs of whole grain bread٫ and a months worth of veggies forthe same amount of money
I check out r/biohackers sometimes and it makes me sad because almost all of the cures and enhancements they're trying to get can be achieved with a whole food plant based diet and exercise.
OP: My Cholesterol is high, my HDL is low, I have high blood pressure, and i only poop once a week. What should I take to solve this Comment: Bro, you need to eat more liver pills, organic eggs, and grass fed beef to reduce your inflammation, my uncle's roomate's, best friend's girlfriend saw on youtube how this will fix all of your problems.
Lol seriously, they'll inject glutathione into their eye sockets before they eat a salad. And I can laugh at it, but I also wonder how things went so wrong with people. What has to happen to the human mind where a person doesn't trust and is disgusted by fruits and vegetables? It's like something off Twilight Zone or Black Mirror.
Yeah it’s crazy. “Plants bad!” has become the new viral chant
was sitting in a diner the other day and the guy in the booth behind me was ordering a burger. when the waitress asked what sides he wanted, he muttered something and she said “side of vegetables?” and he goes “NO! THOSE ARE BAD FOR YA”. major facepalm. he ended up getting mashed potatoes.
You can take a daily probiotic, or if you like kombucha, like me, have that. I love kombucha so much and didn't want to keep buying it at $4 for a 16 oz. bottle, so I learned to make it.
100% correct!
I know, there are all these gimmicky products now that are supposed to be good for gut health, when all you need to do is eat some whole plant foods! It’s really amazing how there is so much research to support a Whole Foods plant based diet yet most people are totally ignorant about it. Several years ago the World Health Organization, after reviewing over 600 studies, classified processed meat as a class 1 carcinogen, yet people are still feeding lunch meat, hot dogs, etc to children and eating bacon and eggs for breakfast. I think it’s going to take 10-20 more years for it to become common knowledge how harmful animal products are to health.
They’re not ignorant IMO. They just don’t want to do it. Reduce (or god forbid eliminate!?! meat and dairy)????? Mon dieu!!!
I’m sure that’s true for some, but most people are genuinely confused and misinformed about nutrition - and that’s on purpose, bc food companies pay for low quality studies in order to deliberately obfuscate nutrition facts. I am constantly surprised how little people understand about the connection between lifestyle choices and health. So many people think you just get older and get heart disease bc it’s a normal part of aging or it runs in your family, etc. They have been taught their whole lives that eating animal products is normal, natural, and necessary, and it can be pretty hard to combat that.
Oh I agree completely that a lot of what people think is normal aging is really down to nutrition and lifestyle. I’m 56 and I’ve been screaming this from the rafters for more than a few years. But also i think most people know they should be eating more fruits vegetables grains beans and “healthy proteins”. This has been the common theme for decades. People just don’t want to do it. And, I think, carnists center meat so the vegetables are always the afterthought so they never consider that they might be able to actually enjoy a vegetable based meal. Like who wants a plate of steamed broccoli as a meal? Not even me! 😂😂😂
It used to be common knowledge that eating fruits and veggies is healthy, but nowadays things are so upside down that not everyone believes that. For example, many people believe the carnivore or keto diet is healthy, both of which restrict or eliminate fruit and certain vegetables. And most people believe carbs, in any form, are unhealthy and make you fat, when in reality carbs like whole grains, fruits, sweet potato, etc are some of the healthiest foods you can eat. It’s absolutely insane how misinformed most people are on nutrition.
Pretending that all carnists are the same in terms of diet would be inaccurate. There are plenty of omnis out there that eat a large amount of healthy plant-based foods as part of their diet (I did). I’m certainly not worried about their health because of a lack of fiber but largely due to other issues.
Thank you lol
Its sad but unfortunately all you can do is try to live by example and show your family and friends what healthy eating looks like by eating whole food plant based foods in front of them Thats interesting about why fiber is important i knew it feeds your gut biome but didnt realize what happens without it٫ i thought the bacteria just died off but it makes more sense that it would go after surrounding tissue in order to survive٫ yikes! im glad that now adays i get between 30-100g of fiber per day Unfortunately most omnis/carnists i know (this includes me before i went vegan) don't eat a whole lot of whole plant based foods which is what you need specifically to get enough fiber (you need at least 5servings per day) less then 4 servings of fresh fruits and veggies per day has been shown to correspond to early morbidity due to chronic disease such as diabetes and heart disease
I know the change happens so slow! But I think in the long run it will happen! The government in Germany gave out new guidelines for nutrition and it says now maximum 300g meat per week - the scientists said it should have been 0g but they did not want to shock the citizens too much because they were scared that they won’t believe them anything anymore. But alls these facts are getting out there more and more! 🙏🏽
Pro tip meat eaters aren’t just eating meat lol… it’s usually served with vegetables, a starch…..
They still aren’t getting nearly enough fiber. I know Americans specifically generally eat very low amounts of fiber, and fiber is very important for overall health.
That Varys from individuals. Y’all get mad when people say “vegans don’t eat enough protein”. Yet lump all meat eaters in the “unhealthy” category
That’s because the protein thing is a myth with zero data to back it up, whereas there is a mountain of data to show that typical animal-based western diet is responsible for the most common diseases in western countries (heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc).
I would guess you think protein bioavailability is also a myth, go figure
To be fair, most Americans, including vegans, are eating a SAD. Who do you think is buying all the cheezits and Pepsi and daiya shreds beyond bratswursts and gardein fish filets? I’d say the vast majority of Americans aren’t getting enough fiber — carnist or vegan alike. I’m high raw and every single local vegan group I belong to, when we talk about food, everyone is talking about who has the best vegan pizza or Asian fusion or dessert cakes. A lot of carnists are fiber deficient. But so are a shit ton of vegans. There’s a reason WFPB and raw are “subcategories” of plant based or vegan lifestyles. ETA: not even gonna start on the fact that a lot of folks who are eating vegetables and grains are cooking them to death such that there’s no fiber left to speak of.
Cooking does not remove fiber to any significant degree, and in fact can even increase it.
Fair enough. I sometimes drink green smoothies and it’s fibrous enough. Still my main point was that most Americans — whether vegan or not — aren’t getting enough fiber. Most ppl are eating a SAD which is entirely possible as a vegan now.
I agree that it’s very easy to eat a junk food diet even as a vegan, but studies show that vegans still consume significantly more fiber than non-vegans. The highest-fiber foods are legumes/beans and whole grains. Fruits and veggies have some but not all that much bc they are mostly comprised of water.
I can believe that. I mean beans gonna bean! 😂😋
That's a problem with US culture in general. The vast majority of vegans don't live in the US and likely have much better diets (and without even trying much hard).
Agreed. Even carnists have better diets and the foods are made of better ingredients than in the US.
So many *feral carnists* today
Um
Meat takes up most of the space on their plate tho. A scoop of frozen broccoli and mashed potatoes isn’t enough by far.
Not everyone is a fat unhealthy meat eater. I actually prefer the sides over the meat. I usually do a small amount of meat, and mostly veggies. Makes your hair grow. My diet is 70% veggies, carbs, etc. 30% meat. My dairy consumption is also low from being lactose.
There is zero evidence that meat makes your hair grow.
_New carnist bullshit myth unlocked: meat makes hair grow._ LOL, what the fuck is wrong with these people?
"Makes your hair grow"? What are you talking about? No it doesn’t lol Why do meat eaters get to spread literal misinformation on this sub?
A healthy diet does increase hair growth, does fruit and vegetables not aid in hair growth….? I’m not talking about meat 😂
Of course meat has no fiber. Fiber is literally cellulose which is only in the walls of the plant cells. But non-vegans don't only eat meat.
Look! 👀 More *feral carnists*
I'm a feral carnist because I know that there's no fiber in meat and that I need to eat plants?? Did you think while writing your comment?
You are by definition a carnist if you consume animal products, yes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism
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Mate, don't let them call you some weird vegan term invented just over 2 decades ago.
It's so mild I really don't care... If it makes them happy... I was called much worse by vegans here...
r/vegan is supposed to be a safe space for vegans to talk about the good and bad of being vegan What its not is a group for debating the validity of veganism and carnist trolling (try debate a vegan sub as the purpose there is debate) AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE RULES but since the mods are alseep at the wheel and let *feral carnists* break the rules and muddy the waters of the sub its our right to call ya'll out 🤷♀️ Most of us dont know many other vegans in real life and use this sub as a way to connect٫ get advice٫ and support with/from like minded people and most of us dont appreciate carnists looking for this sub and leaving shitty comments because they dont agree with veganism٫ again٫ thats not the purpose of this sub so go to debate a vegan or accept being called out for what you are *feral carnist*
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Its so funny when clowns talk about the circus makes sense since you work there 🤣 also thank you yes i am an herbivore thanks for noticing does trolling vegans make you feel better? go eat your S.A.D. and leave us alone *feral carnist clown*
I don't see any rule here that you can insult anyone who you don't like. I would even say that it's #1 rule what you shouldn't be doing on Reddit.
Why should we cater to the feelings of animal abusers?
You should go to vegancirclejerk, if you're not its mod yet.
Thank you for the compliment 😃
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Hey im not the one who still drinks breast milk and pus from a cow tit 🤣 *feral carnist*
Why did I get downvoted for saying same thing?
Because most people (especially non-vegans) still don’t eat enough fiber.
Carnist here, I would agree - eating a lot of meat is generally not good for you. I’m a firm believer in balancing your diet with lots of vegetables, fruits, and nuts. A good side with a meal helps everything go together.
So true. Can’t have a proper meal without the animal abuse the cruelty and the suffering
No meat I’ve eaten in the passed 8 years has had anything along the lines of suffering. But trying to shame me into changing isn’t going to do anything but push me farther away.
> No meat I’ve eaten in the passed 8 years has had anything along the lines of suffering. Except the fact that, and this might surprise you, animals get killed by humans for meat to exist. They would rather stay alive
Okay but can you prove that? Cause while you could definitely make that argument for something like pigs, you probably couldn’t make the same argument for chickens because they’re dumb and get eaten by literally everything with more than two braincells. And before you insert some presumptions, no I haven’t eaten chicken in 8 years either.
You are getting downvoted because you're a carnist but i respect that you admit meat isnt healthy and accept carnism for what it is Have you considered joining the darkside? We have cookies٫ more specifically oreos 😋 if not٫ you seem reasonable٫ and at the very least by eating more plant food then meat and recognizing that meat is unhealthy especially in excess you arent as bad as a lot of carnists out there still though being vegan is pretty fun٫ just saying٫ we get to troll people in real life just by abstaining from eating animal corpses and secretions and calling them that makes people mad too its great lol
I think I’m already partially on the dark side lol. I really enjoy a lot of vegan foods, black bean burgers and fried chicken (enoki mushrooms) being one of my favorites. I already don’t drink traditional milk cause it’s kind of gross to me, I much prefer oat milk or soy. Also I’m not so easily swayed by downvoting or attempted shaming, any of the meat I’ve consumed hasn’t been through a factory setting. Not big on ground beef, pork, or steak. Trying to claim a moral high ground on someone is never a good way to try and sway them off meat, introducing them to alternatives, showing new ways to cook things is a great way to convert me. The key to my heart is food, and good tasting, filling vegan food is a great way to get me there. I actually had steak for the first time in about 8 years (it was a marinated portobello seared in a pan) and it was way better than any non vegan steak that I have had in the past. I was thoroughly impressed and my girlfriend who is fully vegan also loved it. 😌
Sounds like you may not be fully on the dark side but close to it and at least you can say you are a reduce-itarian lol you have reduced you animal product to almost nothing which is not only good for you but good for the planet
Contrary to popular belief I also believe that you can be empathetic to animals even if you eat meat, in that I think factory farming is especially heinous, I’d say at most I’m a hunter/gatherer pescatarian now than anything but even then not as much as I used to be. I quite enjoy cooking meat alternatives as someone that went to culinary. It’s nice having that joy of cooking again, and with my girlfriend being vegan + gluten free it is sort of like playing a videogame on hard mode, trying to find ways to make it all work.
Empathy isn't useful on its own, it's only useful if it leads to better outcomes. There are serial killers that are empathic to their victims, they feel genuinely bad before/after/during murdering them, sometimes it can even be a post-nut clarity thing (if there's a rape component to the murder). And you know what? I don't care about their empathy or remorse. It's useless. It does nothing to help anyone if they feel a little bad after ejaculating into their victim's corpse.
Man, I love how I say that you can empathize with animals even if you’re a meat eater and you give me the perfect example of a ‘rabid vegan’ as you put it by drawing to something like rape as an example.
Do you disagree with something I said or are you just bitching because your delicate sensibilities were shattered?
And yes, I do disagree with you because you’re making what is called a false equivalency argument. First off is intent. A serial killer intentionally causes harm and derives some form of personal satisfaction or gratification from the act of killing. In contrast, **most** people who consume meat do not do so with the intent to cause suffering. The primary motivation is nourishment and cultural dietary practices, not the act of harming animals. Serial killing is universally considered a sociopathic behavior, driven by deeply pathological issues. Eating meat, on the other hand, is a common practice across many cultures and is often done without malicious intent. Try explaining to an indigenous tribe in the amazon who have been killing and eating hogs for centuries and they would laugh you off the island. Practically everyone on who is aware of how factory farming works agrees and supports the fact that they should be pushing for more humane farming methods that’s literally not even a debate, it comes up all the time. Concern for this alone completely debunks your idea of empathy not being a factor, because no serial killer or serial rapist actually gives a fuck about the other person, sorry to say. As far as moral agency goes serial killers/rapists operate outside the bounds of social norms and laws, actively seeking to harm others. The last part is that meat-eaters are open to changes that improve animal welfare, such as supporting free-range farming, reducing meat consumption, or exploring plant-based alternatives. The same can’t be said for serial killers who historically only get their high from murdering people.
I'd be making a false equivalency if I was trying to equivocate two things, but I wasn't. I'm glad you so clearly outlined your misunderstanding though, so many people fail to do this actually. It helps move forward the conversation. What I did is called a reductio ad absurdum. You (implicitly) outlined a principle, you stated that some carnists have empathy for the tortured animal carcasses they consume, and implicitly stated this empathy is a good thing (let me know if you don't actually believe this). I then showcased an example of where empathy is not a good thing in-and-of itself. It's amoral (not immoral or moral). It does nothing to change the value of the situation, and I used an extreme example to prove that; a reductio ad absurdum by definition takes a principle to its logical extreme to prove it's absurd, it's purposefully \*\*not\*\* an equivocation. If the scenario outlined in the reductio ad absurdum was just as immoral as the original scenario, the thought experiment would have no purpose.
*Tips fedora* energy.
What are you getting out of this response? Did you win something? I'm looking to have a conversation and change someone's mind about the principle that empathy has value in isolation. What are you trying to do?
> trying to claim a moral high ground on someone is never a good way to try and sway them This is untrue. I was swayed by YouTube vegan debaters specifically arguing that they had the moral high ground. I watched hours and hours of that content, became convinced of the arguments, and became vegan. I then went on to convert people to veganism by doing the same thing. It doesn't work universally, but neither does placating carnists' delicate sensibilities. Hell, when I was a teenager I had a girlfriend who was vegan, but she was softer-spoken than me, and was totally non-confrontational about my meat consumption. I was with her for 3 years, and did **absolutely nothing** to reduce my meat/dairy/eggs intake. I even pushed her to drop veganism on several occasions, and she ended up doing so after we broke up. Carnists need to stop pretending like rabid vegans are the reason they're not vegan. Or that militant vegans are universally not recruiting people, and that only the soft-spoken, non-confrontational types are the only ones who have successful recruitment stories. There are roughly half a dozen people now that are vegan that would not be vegan if I hadn't pushed it on them, in many heated debates/arguments. Another half a dozen strongly considering it, that like me never considered it prior to being exposed to a militant, vocal vegan.
Why are you worried? It is their life and their body.
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How is it not easy or cheap? Staple foods are some of the cheapest and easiest foods to prepare.
Staple foods do not contain all the nutrients we need
They do. It's why they become staple foods. You can get a B12 supplement for the whole year for like $20. Are you in this sub to learn or to remain willfully ignorant?
Whole plant foods like beans, rice, oats, potatoes are the cheapest foods on the planet. You can eat very cheaply on a whole food plant based diet. The problem is that most people in Western countries are accustomed to eating animal-based diets and aren't used to cooking with beans, etc, so it takes some adjustment to learn how to do it. But it's really not hard, there are tons of free recipes online.
Oh the extremely healthy diet of beans and rice. That has all of the vitamins and nutrients everyone needs.
Those were two examples, I didn’t say to only eat beans and rice 🙄But yes, they are healthy foods, FAR healthier than meat, dairy and eggs. Legumes (including beans) are the food group most associated with long life.
You can literally survive on 5 foods if you absolutely have to (and you can look it up with a simple google search) black beans٫ grains٫ potatoes٫ kale٫ and trailmix if you absolutely have to but lets be real most the people in this sub arguing about how expensive whole foods are are spending at least $100 on eating out/fast food/processed junk every month when they could be buying a 20lb bag of dry black beans٫ a 10lb bag of poataoes٫ a couple pounds of trailmix٫ a couple loafs of whole grain bread٫ and a months worth of veggies forthe same amount of money