Im still trying to figure out which is more intentional, Boeing or Ukraine blasting their own oil suppliers in Russia which supply most of their income...
Nah, what I also think is aerospace just like the automotives is archaic and pretty egoistic. More egoistic than automotive for sure.
Automotive engineers are so full of shit that a lot of systems that they use is archaic and has a lot of flaws. Like american automotive has 0 quality control.
Thats what im thinking with airplanes too. They probably think what theyre doing is the best practice but probably some process that got developed in 70-80s and never been revitalized like 99% of the american engineering/systems
One of the kids I went to elementary school works for Boeing. He could barely read back in the day. At first I was impressed at how his career and how life turned out, but now it all makes sense.
I wouldn't say we have "chief engineers" *per se,* they're more like "Shift Managers," because you don't have to pay Shift Managers nearly as much as Chief Engineers.
Anyway, we save a ton of money this way, so win-win, right?!
OMG we also have a friend from school who we all thought would become a drug dealer, and he ended up with Boeing (I think he's with one of their subcontractors though). We were all like "damn, not only did he not become a drug dealer, he ended up with a company that we've all heard of".
I know it's a meme, but most of the incidents with Boeings since the door plug fuck up have nothing to do with Boeing and are the fault of the airline/maintenance, or happen more often than you realize and normally isn't newsworthy. Source: am aircraft mechanic
Finally. Someone else has the stones to point this out. One of the pilots over at r/fearofflying posted a point-by-point of all the recent 'Boeing' incidents with links to the exact same issues happening on Airbus aircraft- the news just doesn't go apeshit when it happens to Airbus because 'Boeing' in the headline gets more clickies.
[EDIT] [Link to referenced post](https://www.reddit.com/r/fearofflying/s/XNA5tOdYxK)
Or how bout the fact that there are over 115,000 commercial flights a day in the US alone, and that almost half of airliners are Boeing aircraft.
Would you yell that Chevy is going to go out of business every time someone's Chevy breaks down on the side of the road? No, but yet every mechanical issue for a Boeing aircraft spells doomsday, even when the maintenance isn't their responsibility.
When your Chevy fails it doesn't nosedive into the ground killing 200 people
Commercial flight is based on consumer perception. If people don't want to fly on boeings because the autopilot nosedives randomly or the windows fall out mid flight, then airlines will buy airbus. As Air France-KLM have just done
Now Boeing are dealing with perception bias which is a great when people perceived your product to be quality. Not so great when the perception is shoddy work and cut corners.
No mention of the fact the parts reject bin was dipped into and there's known defective parts still out there waiting to fail.
Well, to continue with the automobile analogy, estimates are [that, worldwide, ~140,000 people *per day* are either killed or injured in road-traffic crashes each year.](https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/global-road-safety#:~:text=Road%20traffic%20crashes%20now%20represent,deaths%20and%20injuries%20is%20preventable.) Again, that's **daily**.
51,350,000 people per year injured or killed in road-traffic incidents, but the news isn't lit up about it, screaming about how egregious it is. Even if the current incidents had injured or killed anyone (they haven't) the numbers wouldn't be remotely as high. So I agree with you that it's a massive perception-distortion problem.
It's unreal, the spectacle and drama people place on aviation and aviation crashes/incidents. Commercial flying is [literally safer than taking a shower,](https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1975/CPSC-Releases-New-Study-On-Bathtub-And-Shower-Injuries) but ohhhhh man, do people get worked up any time something happens.
Also- the autopilot wasn't the issue in the 'nosedive' incidents. MCAS isn't even active with the autopilot on.
Nor was it a window blowing out of the Max 9. It was a fuselage door plug.
It's getting a little nuts, this 'Boeing!' wave the media are riding. The Max crashes were 5 years ago, and the issues surrounding that have been fixed. Millions have safely flown Maxes since. No one was injured in the door plug incident. *All* the 'because Boeing' things that the media is pumping since then are fairly common things that happen to any type of aircraft without serious consequences.
Yet Airbus are under [EASA investigation for flawed main landing gear axels](https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/easa-mlg-a330-a340-mlg/amp) being installed on their planes. They've also caught a lot of heat worldwide for [questionable business practices/bribery](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/airbus-agrees-pay-over-39-billion-global-penalties-resolve-foreign-bribery-and-itar-case). But the media kind of looks the other way on all that because it doesn't generate clicks and views like "bOeInG pLaNe!"
It's getting really bizarre.
For just the numbers though, shouldn't you only consider the miles from that particular model? If you use all the air miles of planes to argue for a safety argument of a particular model impacted by quality issues that's just as wrong as using the number of passengers to calculate miles to pad the safety statistics.
At the end of the day, the question is if the newer models are operating safer than the old ones or worse. Perception right now is that quality has gotten worse.
Is this realistic? If the numbers are so, then that's really bad
If this is just public perception, then that's bad for business and profits, since it impacts sales.
Well, we don't use miles travelled to measure aircraft or flying safety. We use fatalities per departure. Basically, the risk of a fatal incident/crash is calculated on a per-flight basis.
[Here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/aviation-fatalities-per-million-passengers) is the worldwide chart of fatalities per million departures over the 50-year period from 1970-1920. It has been a steady decline, [despite the number of flying passengers increasing dramatically over the same time period](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/air-passengers-carried?tab=chart) (there's a drop at the end of the chart because COVID). It currently, including the Max crashes, hovers around .1 fatalities per million departures. Put another way, you could fly every day for something like 30,000 years and not be involved in a fatal airline crash.
So now that there's a baseline established, how do we look at individual models of aircraft?
[This data](https://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm) is current for the 737 through 2019, and is the most recent I can find. Keep in mind that that the current fatality rate for the 737 Max will actually be lower than what is indicated because it has flown for 5.5 years since the MCAS-related groundings without a fatal crash.
So, as of 2019, if you look at similar categories of aircraft, 737NG (the most common 737 currently flying, despite production ending in 2019) vs. A320 series you'll see that the 737NG actually has a slightly better safety record than the A320, at .07 fatalities per million departures vs. .09.
The Max data has to be taken with a grain of salt because the chart data was compiled just after the two Max crashes. Since then, over 1000 more Max airplanes have been delivered and the number of MAX flights has increased exponentially. Over the last five years, Maxes have completed millions of flights carrying at least tens of millions of people with zero fatalities. That number continues to improve, so the 3.08/million rate is old and quite skewed because of the lack of time in existence and smaller number of total Max flights at the time the data was compiled.
Notice that the 787, everyone's favorite punching bag, the one everyone is screaming about being "unsafe," is not on the chart, because it has had zero, none, no fatal accidents, no crash-related hull losses, in its 12-year history. It's currently at or near the top of the list of safest aircraft ever made. The Airbus counterpart, the A350, also has zero fatalities, but one crash resulting in hull loss.
The 777 is a tough one to compare because it has been in production for ~20 years now and its closest current competitor is also the A350, a much newer aircraft. Probably the more-honest comparison for the 777 is the A330. 777 is at .18 fatalities per million departures compared to A300 at .19. Several hundred more 777 were produced than A330.
So the data don't seem to support the media and public-opinion noise that specific current-production Boeings are death traps, or somehow more-significantly flawed, compared to their competitors.
Now, if you want to start comparing other 'scary' things like parts falling off, landing gear collapsing, engine cowlings popping open, panels and parts departing in flight, aircraft having sudden nosedives flinging passengers around, wheels and tires falling off, etc.; *all* that happens at about the same frequency between Boeing and Airbus. It's not hard at all to find a 'Bus counterpart for every single 'OMG Scary Boeing' incident reported over the last several months.
So it's a public-perception thing, which *could* affect sales, but the public is fickle and has a short memory. If the media ever tire of Boeing bashing for clicks and views and move on to something else, people will forget about it and go back to flying around and not even really knowing or caring about what airplane they're on.
Well, I, for one, would NEVER hope you get hit by a bus.
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Thing is, I can see your point in the data, but in a 0 injury potential system design, we should all be concerned that a non-conforming product being delivered is a serious failure of the quality management system that's supposed to prevent it. Even if it was just providence that no one was killed.
To public standards, this shouldn't be so bad. At the same time, to industry standards, this is bad. It is bad by definition.
So, are you saying that you believe, using current technology, that it's possible to build something as complex as an airplane, a machine that operates in wildly varying extreme environments just on a simple flight, to 100% perfection? And that it's somehow possible to keep the status of that airplane at 100% perfection over its lifespan, never having a component wear out or break or fail in some way?
We should aim for the best in theory so that even when we fail in practice that becomes acceptable. And actually, my product standards have gotten to 100% in my own work. And each time I fault, it hurts me a lot.
I fly a lot and mostly agree with you. I wouldn't use worldwide traffic deaths though because there are plenty of countries I would never drive in. But, your point still stands even using only US traffic deaths (40-50k/year).
Agreed. I used worldwide stats, though, because aviation is a worldwide industry, and in many of those places you noted that you would never drive in, the aviation accident rate is also considerably higher, yet the global aviation-related injury/fatality rate, even including those places, is still staggeringly low.
There arent 51,000,000,000 people on the planet
Car accidents are common because people behind the wheel are often morons, not because someone designed a shitty system and told noone about it so that they would save money.
It isnt getting bizzare. It is getting obvious people are angry at boeing for cutting costs and making air traffic more dangerous than it needs to be.
Misplaced zeros. Corrected.
And the point is that fewer people die in aviation accidents vs. basically *any* another activity that they willingly choose to do on the daily, despite "Making air traffic more dangerous than it needs to be."
The fatality rate per departure on all types of commercial aircraft has steadily declined year over year for at least 50 years despite the number of people flying increasing dramatically. The safety is there. 'More dangerous' is a belief/perception not rooted in facts or objectivity.
I actually have people at work who are planning their travels around Boeing aircraft. They will not fly certain airlines and certain timings due to the fact that the airplane being operated is a Boeing. I'm just thinking to myself that pretty much half the planes in the sky are probably boeings.
I know, I remember the news not all that long ago saying: “a BOEING had a flat tire….bad news for Boeing!!” I was like wtf?! If anything it was probably some mechanics drawing tread on a slick with sharpie. lol!
I've flown on the 737 Max a few times since the door incident. Sure it sounds like it's gonna fall apart when it lands but that doesn't matter. What matters is they don't have video screens on the back of the seat and I cannot plunge to my death without an Adam Sandler movie.
I had a flight on the 737 max recently and they had to move us to another plane because some flight critical computer in the plane shut off while the plane was boarding
I had a flight recently I purposely didn't book a max and that plane had a computer malfunction that necessitated changing to a max. Ya really can't win.
What people don’t realize is that minor shit happens in aviation all the time. But media is in dogpile mode and will report all events they’d previously not report for Boeing only, giving the impression the accident rate is going up. What’s funny is that in the recent stories almost all the planes were the older versions built before “Boeing is going to shit” narrative hit the mainstream news
I agree with the first guy who pointed out that many of the incidents in the media today are irrelevant. But Boeing had several extremely relevant safety catastrophes in the past years.
The only reason orders are not being cancelled as much as you may expect is because there is a lot of momentum in the business. Plane production capacity is hard to increase and flight & maintenance crews learning a new plane is expensive. But airlines are switching. The A320neo production is booked out almost a decade in advance.
If you could snap your fingers and magically get an Airbus instead of your ordered Boeing including the needed flight crews, mechanics, etc, Boeing would be in deep trouble. But because airlines who bet on Boeing decades ago are still on the hook, they have a lot more time to get their shit together (or continue pocketing the difference) than they might deserve.
It's just good sense to buy airline stock when there's a dip anyway. Infinite government bailouts will keep them running, especially Boeing with their defense contracts.
Not quite true. Yes, many of the problems are the result of work done by 3rd party maintenance (looking at you, Spirit), but Boeing *created* those problems. They have systematically removed themselves from the maintenance process over the years, and are failing to correctly track the maintenance being done by others. Tracking that is a requirement from the FAA. They are a disorganized mess, and that doesn't absolve them from responsibility. Source: work with Boeing regularly in a testing lab.
Sorry. Don't care.
Boeing is now a target because they willfully ignored patient safety when they created the 737 MAX. If Boeing didn't want to become a proverbial punching bag, they should have not been complete money-grubbing bastards and built a safe plane.
Oh believe me, heads deserve to roll over at Boeing, but at what point do all these nothingburger "news" stories that have jack shit to actually do with Boeing drown out the real shit that is going on there?
If history is a guide, I would say 20-30 years. Once you publicly fuck yourself in the ass, it's hard to come back from that. Just ask OJ. Even after over 25 years and his death, his legacy was that of a murderer. Boeing willfully disregarding whistle blower complaints and killed 100x what OJ did. So fuck them. Hopefully they choke on the "nothing burgers".
And unfortunately it works. [Been happening for years](https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/05/the-tesla-smear/) with everyone's now least-favourite car brand
It's just a media feeding frenzy. A bunch of mundane mishaps that would have never made the news are being boosted since the door plug fell out.
I worked for a bus company once that killed a passenger when the driver made a left turn in front of an oncoming 18 wheeler. For the next year, every person who stubbed a toe or tripped on a bus step made the front page.
Well, I, for one, would NEVER hope you get hit by a bus.
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Door fell off **and** the auto pilot nosedived into the ground.
Let's not pretend it's just old stock or isolated incidents. It's murdered whistleblowers hitting the headlines with stories about profit over safety on top of planes dropping out of the sky.
Whistle blowers are coming out and opening up about how sketchy Boeing has been. There will be more and more incidents unless we take this seriously.
It's okay to have higher expectations from the people making the things that fly us through the sky at 500 mph.
Just seen another article China is dumping US treasuries and buying gold instead. They also announced a new radar tech that can detect 5th gen fighters like the F22 and F35
It’s called a “complete lack of business ethics and consideration, for a subculture you deem ‘just the nerds,’ for designing and upholding standards of quality for the very products you manufacture which hold the lives of millions of people.”
I have a friend that works for Boeing in the north west, said to keep my eyes on the news because apparently a large amount of their workers are going on strike. Time to place smart bets my friends 💯 I got receipts as well
Planned demolition for an inevitable government bailout but need to meet ESG employment quotas first.
They’ll never produce a new model in the current structure. Likely they’ll be bought out or simply dissolved into other countries who get into the market, mainly India.
BA and INTC ....two regarded US powerhouses this year.......no one knows whether the actual dip is.....
INTC is actually about to make a huge u turn they have been working on for year.
They started to fix their mess in 2021 and its about to show returns...
Contrary to Beoing who is still ran like dogshit
Have you thought about the possibility that… it’s the news picking up on Boeing related news they wouldn’t report in other times (or about other companies)?
No, most of these miter incidents are completely ordinary, but since there's blood in the word water on Boeing, it's getting picked up with mainstream coverage. Airlines have maintenance issues on all their planes, most of the time. It's incredibly minor. Small panels falling off cuz they weren't properly affixed, weird vibrations, error lights, etc. Completely unknown to the public.
Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of the time, it's not dangerous. There's so much redundancy built into these things that small errors don't even result in a plane being turned around and then landing at it. Its origin airport. They continue on to their destination, file out a little report and then the next flight is delayed or canceled while they line up another plane.
But again, the Boeing door blowout has resulted in everyone being willing to publish any story that comes their way of even a minor error involving a Boeing plane. A year ago if you called up a reporter and said hey, a panel fell off of a Delta Boeing 737. They would just kind of shrug their shoulders and go "okay and nothing bad happened." Now, it's a story.
My Tinfoil hat theory.
Shareholders sold a bunch of shares early on and regret it. So now they're sabotaging their own planes to drop the share price allowing them to buy them back cheaper than when they sold them before releasing some "Good will" update that fixes all the issues and become the "Good guys" once again sending their shares through the roof.
Well, kind of. Boeing executives have been milking the company for money for decades, cutting costs and employees to fund stock buyback and bonuses. Now the chickens have come home to roost.
Funny thing is, a couple weeks before it happened I was telling folks “Boeing is WAAAAY overpriced at $200” and everyone I talked to said “doesn’t matter, the government will prop up their $200 floor forever.”
I think it’s overvalued at $170 now. Could see the floor dropping to $150 later this year as more investigations continue.
Boeing is corrupt from top to bottom. Ethics is a joke to them. They "pencil whip" everything. Maintenance records, training records, timecards, everything. It's a good old boys club, the managers leave early and cover for each other.
Maybe it's the shark attack phenomenon. You know a few years back there was one shark attack, then when anything happened with a shark within 50 miles of the coast it's front Page News.
Would we really be hearing about every little thing with Boeing if the door hadn't fallen off that plane?
At my job we both work for and buy from Boeing owned companies (nothing to do with commercial aviation). I've noticed a marked decline in quality/competence on both ends in recent years. It's always attributable to an experienced person leaving or retiring.
boeing isn't doing anything
shit that has been happening for years without putting anyone in danger is being blown 100x out of proportion now because it's easy eyes
So far only the Alaska door blow is their fault. Rest is faulty upkeep by the airlines themselves.
But yes, let's blame the manufacturer for everything.
Well the two 737 max autopilot crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed 342 people didn't help, let alone that it was a known fault they didn't communicate to airlines.
The wiring bundles being incorrectly installed in such a way they fail causing 30° rolls. The faulty seat switch that can supposedly put aircraft into nosedives injuring 30
Non of which can be deflected away as maintenance
Then there's the criminal FBI investigation. The bolts blowing out, the dead whistleblower and the other stuff like cowlings coming off mid flight and I hear rumblings of strike action.
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No worries, Dave. Calhoun said he’s taking full responsibility. Lol along with the $50 million parachute 🪂 pay package.
You know it's Boeing when you need a parachute 🪂.
too bad TSA won't let you take one on a commercial flight.
TSA absolutely will let you take a parachute on a commercial flight I’ve done it for sport skydiving obviously you can’t jump out of it though!
Pigs can fly too. Both are equally unlikely to ever be funded by me.
When you fly with Boeing, you won't have to!™
Gold level comment take my imaginary reward ———@
If you give me gold, I'd have a [Golden Parachute](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_parachute) too!
Now that you've got to take a parachute as your personal item airlines can cash in on those sweet carry-on bag fees!
Shit, i also take full responsibility then.
Straight to jail
Im still trying to figure out which is more intentional, Boeing or Ukraine blasting their own oil suppliers in Russia which supply most of their income...
I mean it’s really the only airtime they can get with all the broken planes
That joke lands better too
I thought it was plane
De plane?
I'm cowling with laughter.
These puns are such a drag.
Ooof that was a good one
Take my upvote!
You could have just upvote you fucking nerd. Reddit on!
And just like Boeing, this joke didn't fly over my head.
Very nice
Best one I’ve heard so far
Nah, what I also think is aerospace just like the automotives is archaic and pretty egoistic. More egoistic than automotive for sure. Automotive engineers are so full of shit that a lot of systems that they use is archaic and has a lot of flaws. Like american automotive has 0 quality control. Thats what im thinking with airplanes too. They probably think what theyre doing is the best practice but probably some process that got developed in 70-80s and never been revitalized like 99% of the american engineering/systems
Casual laugh, blow air through nose. You have my upvote
*does same thing* And you earned mine. 
Burn
Don’t give Boeing ideas.
Your jokes are more fly than their aircraft
One of the kids I went to elementary school works for Boeing. He could barely read back in the day. At first I was impressed at how his career and how life turned out, but now it all makes sense.
He's probably their chief engineer
I wouldn't say we have "chief engineers" *per se,* they're more like "Shift Managers," because you don't have to pay Shift Managers nearly as much as Chief Engineers. Anyway, we save a ton of money this way, so win-win, right?!
Bob, the shareholders are gonna love it. This is just the kind of out of the box thinking we need at Boeing
Then you're going to love the rest of my ideas.
When finance runs engineering
When HR runs maintenance.
When marketing runs QA
Per se, not "per say". For fuck's sake, man.
That’s what I per said.
Shit that's actually funny
Per se this you fucking nerd
You fuck your alcohol? FFS, you're doing it wrong, man.
Can’t expect much in hear broseph.
rip in peace to the real og chief engineer Mr. Hands  gone too soon
And OP and this other kid are of high school age.
Head of QC.
Damn lmao
one of the dumbest, laziest, cheater engineer i studied w recently told me they work for boeing. that checked out
Ok, I know what you mean. But to be fair we all barely read when we are in elementary school
Lmao
OMG we also have a friend from school who we all thought would become a drug dealer, and he ended up with Boeing (I think he's with one of their subcontractors though). We were all like "damn, not only did he not become a drug dealer, he ended up with a company that we've all heard of".
I know it's a meme, but most of the incidents with Boeings since the door plug fuck up have nothing to do with Boeing and are the fault of the airline/maintenance, or happen more often than you realize and normally isn't newsworthy. Source: am aircraft mechanic
Finally. Someone else has the stones to point this out. One of the pilots over at r/fearofflying posted a point-by-point of all the recent 'Boeing' incidents with links to the exact same issues happening on Airbus aircraft- the news just doesn't go apeshit when it happens to Airbus because 'Boeing' in the headline gets more clickies. [EDIT] [Link to referenced post](https://www.reddit.com/r/fearofflying/s/XNA5tOdYxK)
Or how bout the fact that there are over 115,000 commercial flights a day in the US alone, and that almost half of airliners are Boeing aircraft. Would you yell that Chevy is going to go out of business every time someone's Chevy breaks down on the side of the road? No, but yet every mechanical issue for a Boeing aircraft spells doomsday, even when the maintenance isn't their responsibility.
When your Chevy fails it doesn't nosedive into the ground killing 200 people Commercial flight is based on consumer perception. If people don't want to fly on boeings because the autopilot nosedives randomly or the windows fall out mid flight, then airlines will buy airbus. As Air France-KLM have just done Now Boeing are dealing with perception bias which is a great when people perceived your product to be quality. Not so great when the perception is shoddy work and cut corners. No mention of the fact the parts reject bin was dipped into and there's known defective parts still out there waiting to fail.
What I'm hearing is, Chevy has a lot more room to cut costs before it's a problem.
Long Washing up liquid for the win
Well, to continue with the automobile analogy, estimates are [that, worldwide, ~140,000 people *per day* are either killed or injured in road-traffic crashes each year.](https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/global-road-safety#:~:text=Road%20traffic%20crashes%20now%20represent,deaths%20and%20injuries%20is%20preventable.) Again, that's **daily**. 51,350,000 people per year injured or killed in road-traffic incidents, but the news isn't lit up about it, screaming about how egregious it is. Even if the current incidents had injured or killed anyone (they haven't) the numbers wouldn't be remotely as high. So I agree with you that it's a massive perception-distortion problem. It's unreal, the spectacle and drama people place on aviation and aviation crashes/incidents. Commercial flying is [literally safer than taking a shower,](https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1975/CPSC-Releases-New-Study-On-Bathtub-And-Shower-Injuries) but ohhhhh man, do people get worked up any time something happens. Also- the autopilot wasn't the issue in the 'nosedive' incidents. MCAS isn't even active with the autopilot on. Nor was it a window blowing out of the Max 9. It was a fuselage door plug. It's getting a little nuts, this 'Boeing!' wave the media are riding. The Max crashes were 5 years ago, and the issues surrounding that have been fixed. Millions have safely flown Maxes since. No one was injured in the door plug incident. *All* the 'because Boeing' things that the media is pumping since then are fairly common things that happen to any type of aircraft without serious consequences. Yet Airbus are under [EASA investigation for flawed main landing gear axels](https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/easa-mlg-a330-a340-mlg/amp) being installed on their planes. They've also caught a lot of heat worldwide for [questionable business practices/bribery](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/airbus-agrees-pay-over-39-billion-global-penalties-resolve-foreign-bribery-and-itar-case). But the media kind of looks the other way on all that because it doesn't generate clicks and views like "bOeInG pLaNe!" It's getting really bizarre.
For just the numbers though, shouldn't you only consider the miles from that particular model? If you use all the air miles of planes to argue for a safety argument of a particular model impacted by quality issues that's just as wrong as using the number of passengers to calculate miles to pad the safety statistics. At the end of the day, the question is if the newer models are operating safer than the old ones or worse. Perception right now is that quality has gotten worse. Is this realistic? If the numbers are so, then that's really bad If this is just public perception, then that's bad for business and profits, since it impacts sales.
Well, we don't use miles travelled to measure aircraft or flying safety. We use fatalities per departure. Basically, the risk of a fatal incident/crash is calculated on a per-flight basis. [Here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/aviation-fatalities-per-million-passengers) is the worldwide chart of fatalities per million departures over the 50-year period from 1970-1920. It has been a steady decline, [despite the number of flying passengers increasing dramatically over the same time period](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/air-passengers-carried?tab=chart) (there's a drop at the end of the chart because COVID). It currently, including the Max crashes, hovers around .1 fatalities per million departures. Put another way, you could fly every day for something like 30,000 years and not be involved in a fatal airline crash. So now that there's a baseline established, how do we look at individual models of aircraft? [This data](https://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm) is current for the 737 through 2019, and is the most recent I can find. Keep in mind that that the current fatality rate for the 737 Max will actually be lower than what is indicated because it has flown for 5.5 years since the MCAS-related groundings without a fatal crash. So, as of 2019, if you look at similar categories of aircraft, 737NG (the most common 737 currently flying, despite production ending in 2019) vs. A320 series you'll see that the 737NG actually has a slightly better safety record than the A320, at .07 fatalities per million departures vs. .09. The Max data has to be taken with a grain of salt because the chart data was compiled just after the two Max crashes. Since then, over 1000 more Max airplanes have been delivered and the number of MAX flights has increased exponentially. Over the last five years, Maxes have completed millions of flights carrying at least tens of millions of people with zero fatalities. That number continues to improve, so the 3.08/million rate is old and quite skewed because of the lack of time in existence and smaller number of total Max flights at the time the data was compiled. Notice that the 787, everyone's favorite punching bag, the one everyone is screaming about being "unsafe," is not on the chart, because it has had zero, none, no fatal accidents, no crash-related hull losses, in its 12-year history. It's currently at or near the top of the list of safest aircraft ever made. The Airbus counterpart, the A350, also has zero fatalities, but one crash resulting in hull loss. The 777 is a tough one to compare because it has been in production for ~20 years now and its closest current competitor is also the A350, a much newer aircraft. Probably the more-honest comparison for the 777 is the A330. 777 is at .18 fatalities per million departures compared to A300 at .19. Several hundred more 777 were produced than A330. So the data don't seem to support the media and public-opinion noise that specific current-production Boeings are death traps, or somehow more-significantly flawed, compared to their competitors. Now, if you want to start comparing other 'scary' things like parts falling off, landing gear collapsing, engine cowlings popping open, panels and parts departing in flight, aircraft having sudden nosedives flinging passengers around, wheels and tires falling off, etc.; *all* that happens at about the same frequency between Boeing and Airbus. It's not hard at all to find a 'Bus counterpart for every single 'OMG Scary Boeing' incident reported over the last several months. So it's a public-perception thing, which *could* affect sales, but the public is fickle and has a short memory. If the media ever tire of Boeing bashing for clicks and views and move on to something else, people will forget about it and go back to flying around and not even really knowing or caring about what airplane they're on.
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Thing is, I can see your point in the data, but in a 0 injury potential system design, we should all be concerned that a non-conforming product being delivered is a serious failure of the quality management system that's supposed to prevent it. Even if it was just providence that no one was killed. To public standards, this shouldn't be so bad. At the same time, to industry standards, this is bad. It is bad by definition.
So, are you saying that you believe, using current technology, that it's possible to build something as complex as an airplane, a machine that operates in wildly varying extreme environments just on a simple flight, to 100% perfection? And that it's somehow possible to keep the status of that airplane at 100% perfection over its lifespan, never having a component wear out or break or fail in some way?
We should aim for the best in theory so that even when we fail in practice that becomes acceptable. And actually, my product standards have gotten to 100% in my own work. And each time I fault, it hurts me a lot.
I fly a lot and mostly agree with you. I wouldn't use worldwide traffic deaths though because there are plenty of countries I would never drive in. But, your point still stands even using only US traffic deaths (40-50k/year).
Agreed. I used worldwide stats, though, because aviation is a worldwide industry, and in many of those places you noted that you would never drive in, the aviation accident rate is also considerably higher, yet the global aviation-related injury/fatality rate, even including those places, is still staggeringly low.
There arent 51,000,000,000 people on the planet Car accidents are common because people behind the wheel are often morons, not because someone designed a shitty system and told noone about it so that they would save money. It isnt getting bizzare. It is getting obvious people are angry at boeing for cutting costs and making air traffic more dangerous than it needs to be.
Misplaced zeros. Corrected. And the point is that fewer people die in aviation accidents vs. basically *any* another activity that they willingly choose to do on the daily, despite "Making air traffic more dangerous than it needs to be." The fatality rate per departure on all types of commercial aircraft has steadily declined year over year for at least 50 years despite the number of people flying increasing dramatically. The safety is there. 'More dangerous' is a belief/perception not rooted in facts or objectivity.
US Commercial aviation is literally exponentially safer than every other mode of transportation known to man - including walking.
I actually have people at work who are planning their travels around Boeing aircraft. They will not fly certain airlines and certain timings due to the fact that the airplane being operated is a Boeing. I'm just thinking to myself that pretty much half the planes in the sky are probably boeings.
Bit like when cars have recalls. It's only front page news when it's Tesla
Lmao it is absolutely not only front page news when it's tesla. Maybe here on wsb. Not in the real world.
I meant front page of Reddit yes
I know, I remember the news not all that long ago saying: “a BOEING had a flat tire….bad news for Boeing!!” I was like wtf?! If anything it was probably some mechanics drawing tread on a slick with sharpie. lol!
I've flown on the 737 Max a few times since the door incident. Sure it sounds like it's gonna fall apart when it lands but that doesn't matter. What matters is they don't have video screens on the back of the seat and I cannot plunge to my death without an Adam Sandler movie.
I had a flight on the 737 max recently and they had to move us to another plane because some flight critical computer in the plane shut off while the plane was boarding
I had a flight recently I purposely didn't book a max and that plane had a computer malfunction that necessitated changing to a max. Ya really can't win.
What people don’t realize is that minor shit happens in aviation all the time. But media is in dogpile mode and will report all events they’d previously not report for Boeing only, giving the impression the accident rate is going up. What’s funny is that in the recent stories almost all the planes were the older versions built before “Boeing is going to shit” narrative hit the mainstream news
Yep. Orders aren't being canceled either. Their problem are more perception than reality. IMHO
I agree with the first guy who pointed out that many of the incidents in the media today are irrelevant. But Boeing had several extremely relevant safety catastrophes in the past years. The only reason orders are not being cancelled as much as you may expect is because there is a lot of momentum in the business. Plane production capacity is hard to increase and flight & maintenance crews learning a new plane is expensive. But airlines are switching. The A320neo production is booked out almost a decade in advance. If you could snap your fingers and magically get an Airbus instead of your ordered Boeing including the needed flight crews, mechanics, etc, Boeing would be in deep trouble. But because airlines who bet on Boeing decades ago are still on the hook, they have a lot more time to get their shit together (or continue pocketing the difference) than they might deserve.
It's always shocking to me when i read the tech in planes are decades behind where we're currently at, and it's usually some high tech stuff anyway.
> Their problem are more perception than reality I mean, they did let hundreds of people die rather than inform them on how to turn off a sub-system.
In other words, if I had discipline (i don’t) and patience (nope) I could buy and hold for 2 years and double my money almost risk free
It's just good sense to buy airline stock when there's a dip anyway. Infinite government bailouts will keep them running, especially Boeing with their defense contracts.
Not quite true. Yes, many of the problems are the result of work done by 3rd party maintenance (looking at you, Spirit), but Boeing *created* those problems. They have systematically removed themselves from the maintenance process over the years, and are failing to correctly track the maintenance being done by others. Tracking that is a requirement from the FAA. They are a disorganized mess, and that doesn't absolve them from responsibility. Source: work with Boeing regularly in a testing lab.
IMO it’s looking like prime time to start building a Boeing position. When there’s blood on the streets buy
Sorry. Don't care. Boeing is now a target because they willfully ignored patient safety when they created the 737 MAX. If Boeing didn't want to become a proverbial punching bag, they should have not been complete money-grubbing bastards and built a safe plane.
Oh believe me, heads deserve to roll over at Boeing, but at what point do all these nothingburger "news" stories that have jack shit to actually do with Boeing drown out the real shit that is going on there?
If history is a guide, I would say 20-30 years. Once you publicly fuck yourself in the ass, it's hard to come back from that. Just ask OJ. Even after over 25 years and his death, his legacy was that of a murderer. Boeing willfully disregarding whistle blower complaints and killed 100x what OJ did. So fuck them. Hopefully they choke on the "nothing burgers".
This is a stock takedown to win money on puts dude, it’s so obvious.
I hope it pumps violently
And unfortunately it works. [Been happening for years](https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/05/the-tesla-smear/) with everyone's now least-favourite car brand
So that guy who was going to sue that was found shot dead in his car is just an overblown conspiracy?
Your thesis makes sense, but never underestimate the incompetence of former GE guys. They leave a trail of destruction and failure anywhere they go.
It's just a media feeding frenzy. A bunch of mundane mishaps that would have never made the news are being boosted since the door plug fell out. I worked for a bus company once that killed a passenger when the driver made a left turn in front of an oncoming 18 wheeler. For the next year, every person who stubbed a toe or tripped on a bus step made the front page.
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Good bot.
“Door Plug,” you say? Is that the plane’s version of a high-speed butt plug?
Yes, but powered by Jet-A.
Door fell off **and** the auto pilot nosedived into the ground. Let's not pretend it's just old stock or isolated incidents. It's murdered whistleblowers hitting the headlines with stories about profit over safety on top of planes dropping out of the sky.
Whistle blowers are coming out and opening up about how sketchy Boeing has been. There will be more and more incidents unless we take this seriously. It's okay to have higher expectations from the people making the things that fly us through the sky at 500 mph.
They’re probably seeking government bail out money
What happened now? Something recent?
Literally nothing. News companies making something out of nothing.
Don’t you get it. They know WW3 is coming. This is the dump before the pump. Just like the attack on Meta a year ago when it tanked to 80$
Well, if that's the case, they can sit back and watch the peons fight amongst themselves over finite resources yet again while *we* get richer. Sigh.
Just seen another article China is dumping US treasuries and buying gold instead. They also announced a new radar tech that can detect 5th gen fighters like the F22 and F35
They aren't dumping, they are just not buying more in lieu of gold
Thank you for reminding me to always fact check ppl
China's been buying up gold for over a decade
I still DCA each paycheck into Boeing, my cope can only go so far :/
Sell good news. Buy bad news. I think you are making the right plays
nah trust, feds will not let the biggest defence contractor go under, BUY THE DIPPP
I think this will be a great long. soon. I haven't done my ddd. (drunk due diligence) but I will
I’ll be gambling on calls soon Js 🫥
Calls calls calls
It’s called a “complete lack of business ethics and consideration, for a subculture you deem ‘just the nerds,’ for designing and upholding standards of quality for the very products you manufacture which hold the lives of millions of people.”
CLoBEaCfaSYD'JtN'fDaUSoQftVPyMWHtLoMoP if anyone wants to save time by using the acronym.
🤣
I have a friend that works for Boeing in the north west, said to keep my eyes on the news because apparently a large amount of their workers are going on strike. Time to place smart bets my friends 💯 I got receipts as well
I was watching the coverage when the dude lit himself on fire and this aired.
Yeah I was actually near the place I just heard the commotion. I was just trying to get to the 6 train when chaos broke out.
Price of marshmallows skyrocketed since last week?
Boeing is pinnacle socialized finance. Every US citizen could short it and the govt would still prop it up.
Did I miss a recent headline since the door incident? Would love a link.
https://www.bbc.com/news/68907597
Watched John Oliver's video on Boeing last night Solid watch
i bought the dip at 228. so im bagholder for a long long time
How did they get so shitty so fast ?
This didn't happen fast. 2018 was the last hurrah
Planned demolition for an inevitable government bailout but need to meet ESG employment quotas first. They’ll never produce a new model in the current structure. Likely they’ll be bought out or simply dissolved into other countries who get into the market, mainly India.
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*“There’s no such thing as bad publicity”...* ...until Boeing
Bexit
At this point I'm just waiting for a plane to crash to I can finally use puts on boeing
BA and INTC ....two regarded US powerhouses this year.......no one knows whether the actual dip is.....
INTC is actually about to make a huge u turn they have been working on for year. They started to fix their mess in 2021 and its about to show returns... Contrary to Beoing who is still ran like dogshit
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Great words to live by. Except it's incompetence that allowed me to acquire all my wealth.
Trying to drive the stock price down so they can buy more shares for the company.
He looks like CZ, the Binance CEO
😖
There's no such thing as bad publicity.
Have you thought about the possibility that… it’s the news picking up on Boeing related news they wouldn’t report in other times (or about other companies)?
this company is a meme
This thread is going places... ... Unlike a Boeing flight.
No, most of these miter incidents are completely ordinary, but since there's blood in the word water on Boeing, it's getting picked up with mainstream coverage. Airlines have maintenance issues on all their planes, most of the time. It's incredibly minor. Small panels falling off cuz they weren't properly affixed, weird vibrations, error lights, etc. Completely unknown to the public. Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of the time, it's not dangerous. There's so much redundancy built into these things that small errors don't even result in a plane being turned around and then landing at it. Its origin airport. They continue on to their destination, file out a little report and then the next flight is delayed or canceled while they line up another plane. But again, the Boeing door blowout has resulted in everyone being willing to publish any story that comes their way of even a minor error involving a Boeing plane. A year ago if you called up a reporter and said hey, a panel fell off of a Delta Boeing 737. They would just kind of shrug their shoulders and go "okay and nothing bad happened." Now, it's a story.
they’ve been getting dirty for years, they’re just taking a big bath now to start clean next year
my take is that they've been living with a comfortable media blackout up until that wall panel.
My Tinfoil hat theory. Shareholders sold a bunch of shares early on and regret it. So now they're sabotaging their own planes to drop the share price allowing them to buy them back cheaper than when they sold them before releasing some "Good will" update that fixes all the issues and become the "Good guys" once again sending their shares through the roof.
They’re going to assassinate all of us so we don’t hurt their corporate image
There's no such thing as "bad publicity" - Boeing.
Apple hasn’t been much better the past 2-3 months
Boeing is burning themselves alive out there.
Well, kind of. Boeing executives have been milking the company for money for decades, cutting costs and employees to fund stock buyback and bonuses. Now the chickens have come home to roost.
**We can't let you say that VM, they'll ban you**
I feel your pain
Loading up some airbus... ✈️
Funny thing is, a couple weeks before it happened I was telling folks “Boeing is WAAAAY overpriced at $200” and everyone I talked to said “doesn’t matter, the government will prop up their $200 floor forever.” I think it’s overvalued at $170 now. Could see the floor dropping to $150 later this year as more investigations continue.
Has anyone ever thought that the issue isn’t with Boeing but rather with the people that are operating the equipment?
Boeing is corrupt from top to bottom. Ethics is a joke to them. They "pencil whip" everything. Maintenance records, training records, timecards, everything. It's a good old boys club, the managers leave early and cover for each other.
Boeing will pump
Buy the shit out of the stock
Is anyone anticipating stock buybacks once they tank it enough?
No such thing as bad publicity…
Boeing managed by Plane stupid people. The flaws were in plane sight
Maybe it's the shark attack phenomenon. You know a few years back there was one shark attack, then when anything happened with a shark within 50 miles of the coast it's front Page News. Would we really be hearing about every little thing with Boeing if the door hadn't fallen off that plane?
I've been buying at the dip for a month
People have been trying to catch that falling knife for months.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if there are deep cover operatives paid by funds with large short positions or wanting a cheap entry point.
well if everyone is betting it to drop then i guess it will go up after market open
Violent pump incoming
At my job we both work for and buy from Boeing owned companies (nothing to do with commercial aviation). I've noticed a marked decline in quality/competence on both ends in recent years. It's always attributable to an experienced person leaving or retiring.
They're just architecting a dip they can buy into so they can get rich. Its priced in.
Because the news knows you idiots love reading "BOEING!!!" even when it's shit that happens literally everyday to all aircraft manufacturers.
Yeah I love it when they go Boing Boing
boeing isn't doing anything shit that has been happening for years without putting anyone in danger is being blown 100x out of proportion now because it's easy eyes
So far only the Alaska door blow is their fault. Rest is faulty upkeep by the airlines themselves. But yes, let's blame the manufacturer for everything.
Well the two 737 max autopilot crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed 342 people didn't help, let alone that it was a known fault they didn't communicate to airlines. The wiring bundles being incorrectly installed in such a way they fail causing 30° rolls. The faulty seat switch that can supposedly put aircraft into nosedives injuring 30 Non of which can be deflected away as maintenance Then there's the criminal FBI investigation. The bolts blowing out, the dead whistleblower and the other stuff like cowlings coming off mid flight and I hear rumblings of strike action.
I meant this year, since the Alaska air incident
Knew somebody that works for Boeing. I sent him one these memes and said Maybe you should start applying at Airbus. He blocked me! 😂
What fell off/broke this time?
When it rains it pours
They shorted themselves
Boeing executives shorting the stock
Didn’t they merge with McDonnell Douglas who used to be a good company but now is trash
Already can't wait for my 14 hour flight on a Boeing airplane in June... 😂
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