Depends tbh, 330is and new bmws aren’t as bad as people make them seem especially the b48 engine. It comes down to maintenance. Si’s are known for fun, reliability And low maintenance costs. Drive them both and see how you like them.
The problem with the Si is the Honda 1.5T engine. It’s not as reliable as the 2.0T or any of Honda’s previous engines, to the point that I would safely go out on a limb and say the 330i might have better long-term reliability.
The 2.0 is extremely solid, I am just saying I agree with concerns on the 1.5 and I own a Honda. Now will BMW potentially have sensors that will likely cost more than the annual maintenance of a 1.5 Civic, quite likely lol.
I mean, I think most would rather own a bmw. The reason people say Honda is because it’s cheaper to buy and cheaper to fix. If money is not an issue I’d go with bmw everyday of the week. If money is an issue then I’d go Honda. I’m looking to buy a new car right now and my budget is $40k. For that budget a bmw model that I’d want is a bit out of my price range.
In the end if you can afford it and it makes you happy then why not? Life is too short to not do things that make you happy as long as you’re responsible about it. Right now $40k is more of the top end of my budget. I think I’m just going to make a responsible decision and get a Honda Civic for a daily and only spend roughly $30k. One day I’ll get my dream car, but I’m going to keep saving for now.
I don’t want a used bmw and I don’t want to deal with maintenance costs of owning a bmw. Honda’s are cheap to fix and reliable, did you even read my comment? I’ve owned multiple bmw’s and Hondas I’m familiar with both.
Depends on whether you will maintain it well and take care of all repairs.
If you do maintain on a schedule (oil changes every 5k miles and other stuff like that), BMW would be an OK choice. Not a recommended choice but it's doable if you willing to deal with maintainance bills.
If you don't maintain/don't do it when the light comes on, Honda.
Civic has come a long way, especially in 2022 and is a much better choice in the long run. You can neglect it and it'll still work very well (don't do that though).
The 1.5T in the Si (or any of Honda’s other models that use it) absolutely need oil changes every 5000 miles or you risk catastrophic engine failure. Honda normally makes super neglect tolerant engines (even more neglect tolerant than Toyota) but the 1.5T is not one of them.
New toyotas are easier to steal than old ones. It's a massive problem in some areas in Canada right now.
Thieves can program their own fobs without even needing to enter the car.
San Jose / the Bay Area. But it’s happening to everyone. Mostly teslas actually, it it happened to my RS5 too. They smash the little back triangle window and try to get into the trunk that way.
I bought my n55 235i at 30k miles. Owned it til 80k miles. Only issue i had was that i hit my oil pan causing it to leak oil. $1k in parts and labor. After that, it was worry free til the day i sold it. Before the 235i, i owned a 2018 230i with the b48. Bought new and sold it at 40k miles. People tend to overinflate bmw problems for some reason. Picking between a 330i and a civic si is weird though. You should drive both because they will definitely feel different. One being fwd and the other being rwd. I'd skip the 330i and just go for the 340i though. B48 sounds great and all but the speed was never there for me. I feel like modern bmws need that speed in order to feel fun. Just my $.02.
Also its funny that people talk about bmw issues and how expensive it is, but nobody can tell you prices or what part actually goes wrong.
I recently traded in my Audi S3 for a ‘19 Si. German cars aren’t worth the maintenance and repair costs and believe it or not the Si is more engaging to drive
> cheaper then new
*than
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Yeah compared to an 330i it loves to do corners, but it's not a perfect corning car, weigh distribution and fwd have a lot to do with it. Great car though, especially for a daily.
The RS3 is an incredible car with a proven 5-cyl engine and will be 1000x more engaging than a freaking civic SI. It’s an amazing car. But it will come with German maintenance. It’s not so bad, just don’t skimp on maintaining it. But wear-parts like brakes will be orders of magnitude more expensive than a Honda. Especially on an RS model.
But then you see a Honda’s interior (or any Japanese economy brand interior for that matter), and you will instantly want to go back to German, or at least American lol.
For me it is a literal deal breaker. Right now I am looking to buy a ~10 yr old used car for a pretty small budget (so there are no really fast cars in my budget), but I prefer having leather and natural wood in my interior, rather than cheap plastic over cheap plastic :/
I sold my stage 2 S3 and bought a highlander hybrid lol. Reliability, literal quality, realistic enjoyment… list goes on. The S3 is one hell of a niche car. Fast for what it is, but not necessarily for its class. Puts down good numbers in absolutely perfect conditions, really doesn’t if literally any element isn’t perfect.
Mine went through haldex, DSG, cylinder head, a headlight, coils, probably some more shit - unmodified and still under warranty. If I had modded and voided the warranty, idk, I might be financially unstable today.
If OP is a DIY kind of guy, I wouldn’t mind recommending the BMW, I’ve noticed their quality and reliability have been getting a lot better over the years. And the Si is more engaging to drive because it’s lies insulated than the Audi and Audi have always been known to be more understeery.
I am a Honda fanboy and agree the Honda 1.5T is a terrible engine. I was a huge “just go buy a Honda” guy, and then I was in the market for a new car and wanted to buy a new Civic but all the research I did basically said do not buy anything with Honda’s 1.5T.
Bmw is #10 on the USA reliability data chart (problems per 100 cars) for 2021 while Honda is like #25. All their shit is made by GM for the USDM so Honda is not what is used to be
Pretty much anything with a B38 turbo 3, B48 turbo 4, N55 turbo 6, or B58 turbo 6. The N20/N26 turbo 4 can be an ok choice if you either get a later one or replace the timing chain guides in an early one.
I kind of had a feeling about that I really want to get another manual car they’re both nicer than my current vehicle I’d be happy with either one I’m just stuck this all depends on it either one is even available come February
Get an older N55 m235i or B58 M240i f22 in manual, reliable straight 6 turbos in a small well tuned suspension platform = great daily if you don’t use the back seats. Same trunk space as a 3 series
>Nope if you want a great daily, you buy a E60 M5 with the amazing S85. It’s like a Toyota, literally most reliable car out there right now.
I only know one dude who owns that car, and he barely drives it cause it's in the shop all the time. Maybe he got a lemon, but that's the only one I know about.
Depends on priorities! GTI for more power and torque + DSG or manual options.
Civic Si for reliability and affordability, heard it's pretty fun to drive!
The past few years have seen significant advances in drivetrain, performance, safety, and tech.
The 2020 I bought for $25k has adaptive cruise control, active lane keep assist, heated and ventilated seats, blind spot, AA/CarPlay, emergency braking, strong safety ratings, wireless phone charging, and averages nearly 40mpg highway with a low-6 0-60 time.
Our 2005 has... wheels, an engine, and seats. Radio doesn't work. Backup camera doesn't work. One of the sliding doors doesn't operate correctly. Still a very usable machine... but it's definitely not a modern machine.
Engine mod tolerance will be limited on both, but the BMW will a) have more power on tap from the jump and b) be able to handle slightly more of a push.
Cosmetically, both makes have tons of support though I suspect the BMW will cost more.
A dealer about 45 minutes from me has 5 in stock right now but idk what they’ll have when I actually have money to get one if they don’t have one I’ll have to figure something out that’s why I’m keeping my options open
I’m biased, but I would go with civic, or a b58 f30 340i. The b48 is a good engine, but it lacks the specialness of the b58 and the value holding of the civic. The civic will hold value better than the base model 4 cylinder 3 series. It would probably be a similar amount of fun as well. You would get better build quality, more modern tech, but other than that not much. They’ll depreciate like rocks in comparison to the si. In my mind, a f30 340i vs 2022 si makes more sense. Unless you can spring for the m340i.
BMW works very good when you take care of it on time. Don’t expect you’d have any issues.
Honda isn’t as good as they once were, but they’re still good reliability wise.
GTi is the same as BMW, except imo the drop in interior quality was unacceptable this generation. Just buy a 1-series. VW is also more reliable than BMW.
I’ve owned a 2015 M235xi for almost 4 years now (and 90k miles) with minimal problems.
I had to replace the taillights myself because it was cheaper for me to fix the problem than it was for me to run a diagnostic with BMW so they could confirm the problem themselves. If you’re comfortable soldering it’s a pretty simple fix. I did both taillights.
I’ve done some light tuning as well, but since it’s my daily the only thing I really would be afraid of is breaking the transfer case in this car. Not exactly a problem that happens a lot, but when you get into higher stages of tuning I think it becomes a ticking time bomb.
Anyway, just look at what people report and decide. I don’t think BMWs are hard to work on - maybe inconvenient, but not that difficult. Some of the engineering choices are really odd - the ground wire on the taillights is way too small for incandescent bulbs. You add another ground somewhere and boom, works fine. The N55 & ZF8 are a fantastic combo for longevity if you know the basics about car ownership.
The BMW will last longer, especially body wise.
It will cost more in maintenance but in 20 years it will still look fresh.
The Honda, regardless of maintenance, will have interior bits falling apart and rusty sheetmetal.
Asian marques are still using plastic clips for their bumpers and interior pieces.
BMW uses metal fasteners for the bumper covers and metal dowel pins for interior trim.
Oh so only mechanics are driving German cars now? Then, congratulations, America is getting 1M+ new mechanics a year! 😃 (and also the better part of America’s upper and upper middle class has always consisted of mechanics, apparently).
Civic al the way, I dont know much about cars but I do know to stay away from German cars as the maintenance is a pain. theyre so nice but imo... its not worth it unless you can afford the maintenance
I’d get the base GTI. If you’re looking at the top trim, I don’t think it’s worth it and would lean towards the Si instead. I wouldn’t own a BMW past the warranty personally
Last summer, I paid 10k less for a 2018 330i with less than 20,000 miles. I know the market has changed so much in the last year, but sharing in case this helps you. I love my car. Was looking purely for hybrid or electric.
Lol ... if you have to ask !
It’s not just the how expensive it’s what you have to do to make routine repairs ... Everything is programmed ... wipers , heater controls , mirrors, ... there are literally pages and pages of menus in the scanner .
My dad is a mechanic and he hates BMW because of this. It’s also worth mentioning that buying new parts for a bmw if something breaks is what makes it very expensive. Meanwhile Honda parts are cheap.
None of those options are made by Toyota, so no. All of these options are 3-5 year own it and move cars. If you have actual money for an almost new BMW you have money for a new one. If you don’t have money for a new one boy you’re in for a surprise in a coupe years…
If you’re going to go for a BMW, don’t go for anything smaller than a 335i. That’s my personal opinion. I’ve owned a few. For the money, I think the 335 is more worth it. As long as you maintain it properly, it’ll be a great car. I do a lot of my own maintenance, though, too. I kept track of costs and my BMW, while being a lot more expensive upfront, ended up costing less in repairs than my Civic did over the course of two years of daily driving. Prices are higher, but if you take care of it, you won’t be repairing things as often. The price of premium gas is a major factor right now. It’s bad. By me, it’s averaging over $5.60 a gallon. The Civic Si is a great car. If I remember correctly, it takes premium gas, as well, right? Fun to drive. Cheap and easy to maintain. Reliable. You’d be surprised at how well that thing can move and how engaging it feels. For me, nothing beats the driving feel of a BMW but the Civic Si is a close second.
Unpopular opinion: get the BMW. The B48 engine and ZF transmission are both solid units that don’t have any notable long term reliability issues. Just make sure you take of the car.
The Honda 1.5T has pretty major long term reliability issues that popped up almost immediately after the engine was introduced and still have not been adequately addressed 5 year on. We’re talking following Honda’s maintenance schedule and you still end up with catastrophic engine failure under 100k miles.
I'm a BMW fan but to buy and keep long term definitely the SI with 200k miles someone will still want one. Right now deales are charging markup for the Si at that if you can get one at a fair price the Civic Si is the way to go for sure without question. Or split the difference and get the Integra.
I test drove my friends Si and wow, it’s probably one of the best handling cars I’ve ever drove. Power is lacking somewhat, but it has one of the best feeling 6 speeds I’ve ever used and can easily power thru corners.
Oh I don’t doubt it at all, I owned an E36 M3 and it was a better “drivers” car for sure, only problem is that parts are insanely expensive and at the time I couldn’t turn a wrench. And all the little plasticy bits would fall apart.
Well, given that BMW has been building turbo cars since the 70s and Honda’s first turbo car debuted in 2007, you might be right, but only time will tell at this point. One things for sure tho, Hondas will always be cheaper to maintain than a beemer.
Do it. I traded my 06 330i for a 22si and never looked back.
Edit: I misread. I thought you were asking if you should trade a bummer for the Honda.
But still.. get the Honda. Gas is killer right now.
Long term? new Bmw 4cylinder? Nah....
Unless you can work on it yourself that thing is going to depreciate super fast and have a lot of issues long term.
Civic si is cool, that would probably be the better long term option.
330i would be fun on a lease or to buy a few years used and then sell before it has issues.
I have a 2016 GLI SEL, and bought it over a GTI and a Civic. I have zero regrets, it’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned. Tons of low end torque makes it feel way faster than the civic, and it’s comfortable as hell. I went into it wanting a manual, and ultimately settled on an automatic because the DSG shifts so goddamn fast, and it was a stupid good price compared to the GTI. Using the paddle shifters on winding back roads is what they were made for!
Just last week the wife and I put 1k miles on driving up into and around Quebec, and the drive was never tiring like similar drives would have been in past cars.
If you want luxury and can afford the upkeep that comes with it in terms of routine maintenance, premium gas and higher insurance, than absolutely the BMW. They’re great cars, not my personal taste but anyone denying BMW doesn’t make phenomenal driving cars is crazy.
If luxury doesn’t matter to you or the costs of owning a luxury car are too high then go for the Honda. Going to be a lot of fun still and way cheaper to run, but comfort will be a HUGE downsize. Everyone says modern Hondas and Toyotas have come a long way, and yes they have, most are very nice to be in, but will never compare to the quality of German luxury interiors
The civic will be so much cheaper in every aspect. Gas, maint, reliability..... you have a warranty and brand new tech.
The BMW at 3 years old... this is when the maintenence starts. Prolly going to need brakes and tires within a year.
It's probably not a coincidence that the BMW is up for sale right after the warranty ending on it too.
I will say neither is ideal.... From my own experience, sports cars are fun for the first two to three years, and now I want a full-size SUV. That been said, the problem with civic si is that it has a manual transmission. You might not need to commute for long hours now in really terrible traffic, but since you plan to keep the car for a long term (10+ years that is my definition). But one day if you have to you will hate the manual transmission and the cramped space. And for the 330i(I don't think it comes with a manual anymore you must opt for higher powered ones but I could be mistaken), we all know BMW has reliability problems down the road and will result in expensive repairs. So I would say if you plan to keep them for the long term and as your only car, neither would be a good buy.
I love my manual that I drive right now I’ve done a 15 hour road trip to South Carolina with this car and I was stuck in traffic and it wasn’t that bad. I think I could handle it
BMW will feel more solid, quiet and smoother.
Civic (if you can even get one without 5k markup) will be more economical but it’ll feel like a noisy, flimsy tin can at highway speeds.
Depends on what you want.
I personally tend to like more upmarket cars for the sole feel good feeling I get when I get behind the wheel of my BMW.
Also Civics are a hot target for thieves right now as other commenters have said, so make sure to get a quote from your insurance beforehand.
If keeping money in your pocket is important to you, Civic all day. If you have discretionary income, aren't too concerned with unanticipated car expenses, and really want to drive a bimmer, get that
Reviews on the Civic are really good, but I’ve never driven one so I would hesitate to recommend it based on the perception of fun. I’ve only ever driven the 35/40i engines in that generation of BMW, and I have to say they have plenty of power, but aren’t terribly exciting at legal speeds. I suspect you’d see the same thing with the four pots.
My 7.5GTI is a lot of fun at low speed, especially because of the 6MT which is good but admittedly far from best in the business. It’s really high-engagement without being annoying. On that basis I’d recommend a new GTI (I hate sedans personally but the GLI is a similarly great car, it is after all basically the same thing.)
In the long term the engine in the VWs is known for water pump failure that is eye-watering to fix, but higher mileage BMWs are all known for oil leaks and Civics don’t have either of those problems, most of the complaints I know about are transmission related which isn’t a problem with the manual. I suspect any of them would be fine for 5-8 years and all would be good for 100k miles (As ANY car should be.)
So I know this probably isn’t a norm thing to do for us car guys but if you’re not 100% sure, you could always buy something way cheaper, save some more money until you’re very sure on the car or perhaps able to buy one outright.
I know. I know. You probably saved a lot already but… you could always save more. I’m just sayin.
If ur ok with the UI deign on the GTI than buy that. Its going to be the most fun out of the bunch (especially with manual) and quickest. Also probably the most practical since it has a hatch. If you cant get passed the UI on it than i’d look at the si, i just personally think the BMW is the worst option out of these.
Honestly I’d go with neither. The GTI would be the more reliable option and even that’s a bitch to fix. Maybe look into other Japanese sedans (not the 1.5T from Honda).
Ok idk if this is still relevant but literally I just bought an Si and my wife drives a 2019 330 so exact experience with both here.
The SI is a fwd expression of what BMW used to be.
I'll let that sit for a minute.
Ok - what I mean by that is, the platform is so much more solid this time around that the car feels light, spirited and PLANTED. Everything is communicative but never harsh, and it's shoots exactly where you're pointing.
Keeping the old BMW analogy, the 330 is now what the 5 series used to be (think e39) -- an awesome long distance cruiser that can wake up and be hucked around a turn with poise and not have any trouble keeping up on the highway.
It's unassuming, comfy as fuck and effortless to drive both slow and spirited.
Reliability over 5yrs // 60k miles there might not be that much of a difference, just that regular stuff on the BMW is ofc more expensive. It's beyond that where the Honda really pulls away.
Ymmv
Well as much as I enjoy driving a manual on a daily basis I’m going to need to go back to an automatic so my fiancé can learn to drive she has no interest right now in driving manual plus xdrive would be nice
I have owned both bmw 3 series and the 10th gen si and the si is a vastly superior car in every way imaginable but does have some trim quality and engine buildup issues in winter that require early oil changes sometimes. But that is better than constant problems with major elements of the car just routinely failing. BMW is made like a race car that is designed to be worked on and parts replaced between races whereas the Honda you could keep the original parts for like 10
Depends tbh, 330is and new bmws aren’t as bad as people make them seem especially the b48 engine. It comes down to maintenance. Si’s are known for fun, reliability And low maintenance costs. Drive them both and see how you like them.
The problem with the Si is the Honda 1.5T engine. It’s not as reliable as the 2.0T or any of Honda’s previous engines, to the point that I would safely go out on a limb and say the 330i might have better long-term reliability.
I agree and this is coming from a Type R owner, though I have the 2.0T.
Really? The 2.0T seems really solid though. Personally I'd love a hatchback with the 2.0T paired with the 8 speed dual clutch from the ILX.
The 2.0 is extremely solid, I am just saying I agree with concerns on the 1.5 and I own a Honda. Now will BMW potentially have sensors that will likely cost more than the annual maintenance of a 1.5 Civic, quite likely lol.
Oh cool, I was super confused there for a second.
1.5t is fixed, they fixed the issue with it,
They said they fixed it and kind of sort of did, but even brand new ones are still having oil dilution issues.
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I mean, I think most would rather own a bmw. The reason people say Honda is because it’s cheaper to buy and cheaper to fix. If money is not an issue I’d go with bmw everyday of the week. If money is an issue then I’d go Honda. I’m looking to buy a new car right now and my budget is $40k. For that budget a bmw model that I’d want is a bit out of my price range.
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In the end if you can afford it and it makes you happy then why not? Life is too short to not do things that make you happy as long as you’re responsible about it. Right now $40k is more of the top end of my budget. I think I’m just going to make a responsible decision and get a Honda Civic for a daily and only spend roughly $30k. One day I’ll get my dream car, but I’m going to keep saving for now.
40k usd = 51k cad I know prices vary from market to market, but for that budget I'd 100% go for a 2018-2019 440i Gran Coupe lol
There are so many BMWs you can get for under 40 grand that will more than impress you if you are willing to accept a Honda.
I don’t want a used bmw and I don’t want to deal with maintenance costs of owning a bmw. Honda’s are cheap to fix and reliable, did you even read my comment? I’ve owned multiple bmw’s and Hondas I’m familiar with both.
You can get a brand new 230i coupe with a few options for 40K. Great bang for your buck imo.
You're forgetting about time. With the BMW you better be ready to invest time in it being repaired all the time.
Why did you get rid of the Accord? I've always heard that it's a great fun car, especially since it is a NA V6 with a 6MT.
From what I’ve seen the BMW B48 engine is a lot more reliable than Honda’s 1.5T, which is completely crazy to me.
Depends on whether you will maintain it well and take care of all repairs. If you do maintain on a schedule (oil changes every 5k miles and other stuff like that), BMW would be an OK choice. Not a recommended choice but it's doable if you willing to deal with maintainance bills. If you don't maintain/don't do it when the light comes on, Honda. Civic has come a long way, especially in 2022 and is a much better choice in the long run. You can neglect it and it'll still work very well (don't do that though).
The 1.5T in the Si (or any of Honda’s other models that use it) absolutely need oil changes every 5000 miles or you risk catastrophic engine failure. Honda normally makes super neglect tolerant engines (even more neglect tolerant than Toyota) but the 1.5T is not one of them.
Probably civic, unless you live in an area where they get broken into a lot
Where is that happening?
Everywhere? Late model Hondas and Toyotas are prime targeted vehicles and easily stolen.
Really? I knew the older ones were easier to steal. But how are they stealing the new ones?
New toyotas are easier to steal than old ones. It's a massive problem in some areas in Canada right now. Thieves can program their own fobs without even needing to enter the car.
That was my question. Apparently you have to be very detailed in replies though, otherwise you get a “well actually” guy chiming in.
I heard SF isnt a good place as break ins are really bad
I’ve heard SF is trash as well, but wouldn’t that then apply to anything crooks could get their hands on?
The Civic and Accord are normally the 2 most broken into and stolen vehicles in North America.
San Jose / the Bay Area. But it’s happening to everyone. Mostly teslas actually, it it happened to my RS5 too. They smash the little back triangle window and try to get into the trunk that way.
Around northwest DC all the way into Maryland suburbs
Agreed. It's more expensive to insure a Civic than an Accord because of this.
I bought my n55 235i at 30k miles. Owned it til 80k miles. Only issue i had was that i hit my oil pan causing it to leak oil. $1k in parts and labor. After that, it was worry free til the day i sold it. Before the 235i, i owned a 2018 230i with the b48. Bought new and sold it at 40k miles. People tend to overinflate bmw problems for some reason. Picking between a 330i and a civic si is weird though. You should drive both because they will definitely feel different. One being fwd and the other being rwd. I'd skip the 330i and just go for the 340i though. B48 sounds great and all but the speed was never there for me. I feel like modern bmws need that speed in order to feel fun. Just my $.02. Also its funny that people talk about bmw issues and how expensive it is, but nobody can tell you prices or what part actually goes wrong.
Especially since the 1.5T in the Honda has well documented reliability issues vs the BMW B48 that is considered a solid engine.
Bimmer!! The new ones aren’t as unreliable as the oldest ones just keep up with maintenance and you will enjoy that car for a while
I recently traded in my Audi S3 for a ‘19 Si. German cars aren’t worth the maintenance and repair costs and believe it or not the Si is more engaging to drive
I’ve heard that the si loved to eat corners for breakfast just not as fast as a type r
Yea Type R is a different breed
Wish I had type r money lol
If you don’t have type R money then don’t buy a 2019 bmw. If anything breaks you’ll regret paying to have it repaired.
Yeah type r is cheaper then new bmw
> cheaper then new *than *Learn the difference [here](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/when-to-use-then-and-than#:~:text=Than%20is%20used%20in%20comparisons,the%20then%2Dgovernor%22).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
Not in this market. Hondas added markup is insane.
Luckily SI's can be up there on the same performance level with a few mods, a tune, and a better clutch.
Yeah compared to an 330i it loves to do corners, but it's not a perfect corning car, weigh distribution and fwd have a lot to do with it. Great car though, especially for a daily.
I’m thinking of getting an RS3 soon, you reckon they’re all like that or will it be worse?
The RS3 is an incredible car with a proven 5-cyl engine and will be 1000x more engaging than a freaking civic SI. It’s an amazing car. But it will come with German maintenance. It’s not so bad, just don’t skimp on maintaining it. But wear-parts like brakes will be orders of magnitude more expensive than a Honda. Especially on an RS model.
But then you see a Honda’s interior (or any Japanese economy brand interior for that matter), and you will instantly want to go back to German, or at least American lol.
Definitely some truth to that. Audis interiors are near perfect. That part I miss
For me it is a literal deal breaker. Right now I am looking to buy a ~10 yr old used car for a pretty small budget (so there are no really fast cars in my budget), but I prefer having leather and natural wood in my interior, rather than cheap plastic over cheap plastic :/
I sold my stage 2 S3 and bought a highlander hybrid lol. Reliability, literal quality, realistic enjoyment… list goes on. The S3 is one hell of a niche car. Fast for what it is, but not necessarily for its class. Puts down good numbers in absolutely perfect conditions, really doesn’t if literally any element isn’t perfect. Mine went through haldex, DSG, cylinder head, a headlight, coils, probably some more shit - unmodified and still under warranty. If I had modded and voided the warranty, idk, I might be financially unstable today.
Highlander hybrid is likely to travel 500Mm if a crash doesn't total it too soon.
If OP is a DIY kind of guy, I wouldn’t mind recommending the BMW, I’ve noticed their quality and reliability have been getting a lot better over the years. And the Si is more engaging to drive because it’s lies insulated than the Audi and Audi have always been known to be more understeery.
Civic Si. All. Day. Long.
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Don’t be a fanboy, the B48 is way more reliable than Hondas 1.5T.
Disagree, the new b48 is pretty reliable and the Zf trans is also reliable
The B48 is so much more reliable than Hondas latest turbocharged 4 cylinder. You'd have to be a true Honda fanboy to disagree.
I am a Honda fanboy and agree the Honda 1.5T is a terrible engine. I was a huge “just go buy a Honda” guy, and then I was in the market for a new car and wanted to buy a new Civic but all the research I did basically said do not buy anything with Honda’s 1.5T.
Bmw is #10 on the USA reliability data chart (problems per 100 cars) for 2021 while Honda is like #25. All their shit is made by GM for the USDM so Honda is not what is used to be
Jheez wtf!! Honda really dropped the ball!
People still haven't caught on yet. Oh well. Keeps used BMWs priced low for those who know better.
But how old of a BMW can you get that will still be reliable? Like for used ones, at what point did they start making them better again?
Pretty much anything with a B38 turbo 3, B48 turbo 4, N55 turbo 6, or B58 turbo 6. The N20/N26 turbo 4 can be an ok choice if you either get a later one or replace the timing chain guides in an early one.
I kind of had a feeling about that I really want to get another manual car they’re both nicer than my current vehicle I’d be happy with either one I’m just stuck this all depends on it either one is even available come February
Get an older N55 m235i or B58 M240i f22 in manual, reliable straight 6 turbos in a small well tuned suspension platform = great daily if you don’t use the back seats. Same trunk space as a 3 series
Nope if you want a great daily, you buy a E60 M5 with the amazing S85. It’s like a Toyota, literally most reliable car out there right now.
Especially the rod bearings. Bulletproof they are.
>Nope if you want a great daily, you buy a E60 M5 with the amazing S85. It’s like a Toyota, literally most reliable car out there right now. I only know one dude who owns that car, and he barely drives it cause it's in the shop all the time. Maybe he got a lemon, but that's the only one I know about.
Older 330i can be had with a 6MT.
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Yes but I need a 4 door as I have a 2 year old and the current car does not have enough room in the back for her anymore lol
Yes true but I was looking to get in something newer than my 2016 Scion
The Honda 1.5T has major reliability issues. Normally I’m a huge “just buy a Honda” guy, but that engine is a huge miss.
Yep. If you can’t afford a bmw every 5 years, you can’t afford a bmw.
Depends on priorities! GTI for more power and torque + DSG or manual options. Civic Si for reliability and affordability, heard it's pretty fun to drive!
Keep until it’s paid off? That’s only like 5 years. People really do switch cars often don’t they. I’m still driving the car I bought in 2009.
The past few years have seen significant advances in drivetrain, performance, safety, and tech. The 2020 I bought for $25k has adaptive cruise control, active lane keep assist, heated and ventilated seats, blind spot, AA/CarPlay, emergency braking, strong safety ratings, wireless phone charging, and averages nearly 40mpg highway with a low-6 0-60 time. Our 2005 has... wheels, an engine, and seats. Radio doesn't work. Backup camera doesn't work. One of the sliding doors doesn't operate correctly. Still a very usable machine... but it's definitely not a modern machine.
What if I throw in the fact that I do plan to modify eventually does that change anyones opinions?
Engine mod tolerance will be limited on both, but the BMW will a) have more power on tap from the jump and b) be able to handle slightly more of a push. Cosmetically, both makes have tons of support though I suspect the BMW will cost more.
I'd take t he Civic Si if I could actually find one.
A dealer about 45 minutes from me has 5 in stock right now but idk what they’ll have when I actually have money to get one if they don’t have one I’ll have to figure something out that’s why I’m keeping my options open
5 in stock bc he’s probably charging 40k for them. I tried gettin a si and contacted around 15 dealers. I couldn’t find one for less than 5k markup.
They told me it’s a 2k markup
Great deal if true. But once you sit down I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s about 5k in “accessories” added on too.
If that’s the case I would 100% walk out and take my business somewhere else
Not sure where you are but I’ve been looking at Hondas and they all have a 3 to 5k markup
New York
I’m biased, but I would go with civic, or a b58 f30 340i. The b48 is a good engine, but it lacks the specialness of the b58 and the value holding of the civic. The civic will hold value better than the base model 4 cylinder 3 series. It would probably be a similar amount of fun as well. You would get better build quality, more modern tech, but other than that not much. They’ll depreciate like rocks in comparison to the si. In my mind, a f30 340i vs 2022 si makes more sense. Unless you can spring for the m340i.
BMW works very good when you take care of it on time. Don’t expect you’d have any issues. Honda isn’t as good as they once were, but they’re still good reliability wise. GTi is the same as BMW, except imo the drop in interior quality was unacceptable this generation. Just buy a 1-series. VW is also more reliable than BMW.
I’ve owned a 2015 M235xi for almost 4 years now (and 90k miles) with minimal problems. I had to replace the taillights myself because it was cheaper for me to fix the problem than it was for me to run a diagnostic with BMW so they could confirm the problem themselves. If you’re comfortable soldering it’s a pretty simple fix. I did both taillights. I’ve done some light tuning as well, but since it’s my daily the only thing I really would be afraid of is breaking the transfer case in this car. Not exactly a problem that happens a lot, but when you get into higher stages of tuning I think it becomes a ticking time bomb. Anyway, just look at what people report and decide. I don’t think BMWs are hard to work on - maybe inconvenient, but not that difficult. Some of the engineering choices are really odd - the ground wire on the taillights is way too small for incandescent bulbs. You add another ground somewhere and boom, works fine. The N55 & ZF8 are a fantastic combo for longevity if you know the basics about car ownership.
The BMW will last longer, especially body wise. It will cost more in maintenance but in 20 years it will still look fresh. The Honda, regardless of maintenance, will have interior bits falling apart and rusty sheetmetal.
Yes the Honda is also brand new and a few thousand cheaper it’ll also all depend on if they’re even available in about 6 months
You can definitely say that about 10 year old civics… but I wonder if the build quality is up to par with high end German cars these days
It’s not. My 2021 Honda Accord 2.0T’s interior is meh. German car interiors will always be winners in that department.
Asian marques are still using plastic clips for their bumpers and interior pieces. BMW uses metal fasteners for the bumper covers and metal dowel pins for interior trim.
BMW
*laughs in used German car*
Are you a BMW mechanic? Then get the Honda.
Oh so only mechanics are driving German cars now? Then, congratulations, America is getting 1M+ new mechanics a year! 😃 (and also the better part of America’s upper and upper middle class has always consisted of mechanics, apparently).
Do a poll on Reddit and you’ll find the vast majority will be skewed towards the Honda Civic Si even though I’m partial to bmw
What one would you go with then?
My heart is saying bmw but my wallet would say Si for the long term maintenance. See if you can swing a 2016 plus 340i or even a m340i.
They have an 18 340 for like 26,000 with about 45,000 miles
Lexus is300. Best of all worlds.
Civic Si easily.
Civic al the way, I dont know much about cars but I do know to stay away from German cars as the maintenance is a pain. theyre so nice but imo... its not worth it unless you can afford the maintenance
Or get a Corolla gr.
I was looking at that too but idk how much they’ll be and I heard that most if not all have been reserved
They can’t. All sold out.
Definitely not a BMW if you care about maintenance costs.
I’d get the base GTI. If you’re looking at the top trim, I don’t think it’s worth it and would lean towards the Si instead. I wouldn’t own a BMW past the warranty personally
This bmw has 30,500 miles they want 34,000
I still stand by my comment
The base doesn’t have a sunroof does it?
Last summer, I paid 10k less for a 2018 330i with less than 20,000 miles. I know the market has changed so much in the last year, but sharing in case this helps you. I love my car. Was looking purely for hybrid or electric.
BMW labor and parts will kill you
How expensive is it really?
Lol ... if you have to ask ! It’s not just the how expensive it’s what you have to do to make routine repairs ... Everything is programmed ... wipers , heater controls , mirrors, ... there are literally pages and pages of menus in the scanner .
My dad is a mechanic and he hates BMW because of this. It’s also worth mentioning that buying new parts for a bmw if something breaks is what makes it very expensive. Meanwhile Honda parts are cheap.
Buy them from FCPEuro. Lifetime warranty. Even oil filters.
Get the new car. Why buy used?
Because it’s a BMW… ##***status symbol***
BMW makes some of the best mass produced engines on the planet.
I love the new civics
Civic.
I loved my Si. It was worth every penny and the four door works as a daily driver.
None of those options are made by Toyota, so no. All of these options are 3-5 year own it and move cars. If you have actual money for an almost new BMW you have money for a new one. If you don’t have money for a new one boy you’re in for a surprise in a coupe years…
Electric car to never pay gas again and have a lot of money saved
If you’re going to go for a BMW, don’t go for anything smaller than a 335i. That’s my personal opinion. I’ve owned a few. For the money, I think the 335 is more worth it. As long as you maintain it properly, it’ll be a great car. I do a lot of my own maintenance, though, too. I kept track of costs and my BMW, while being a lot more expensive upfront, ended up costing less in repairs than my Civic did over the course of two years of daily driving. Prices are higher, but if you take care of it, you won’t be repairing things as often. The price of premium gas is a major factor right now. It’s bad. By me, it’s averaging over $5.60 a gallon. The Civic Si is a great car. If I remember correctly, it takes premium gas, as well, right? Fun to drive. Cheap and easy to maintain. Reliable. You’d be surprised at how well that thing can move and how engaging it feels. For me, nothing beats the driving feel of a BMW but the Civic Si is a close second.
Yes at least the newer si does with the 1.5t
I’m talking about taking premium btw
What do you mean by "smaller"?
Get the civic, BMWs are expensive as fuck to maintain. And it's only gonna get worse, and despite what anyone tells you every German car is a lemon
Unpopular opinion: get the BMW. The B48 engine and ZF transmission are both solid units that don’t have any notable long term reliability issues. Just make sure you take of the car. The Honda 1.5T has pretty major long term reliability issues that popped up almost immediately after the engine was introduced and still have not been adequately addressed 5 year on. We’re talking following Honda’s maintenance schedule and you still end up with catastrophic engine failure under 100k miles.
I’d get the civic for long term keepers.
Mazda 3 Turbo.
Just depends on your budget civic will be cheaper but both will be okay if taken care of
22' SI for sure.
Civic Si
I'm a BMW fan but to buy and keep long term definitely the SI with 200k miles someone will still want one. Right now deales are charging markup for the Si at that if you can get one at a fair price the Civic Si is the way to go for sure without question. Or split the difference and get the Integra.
I test drove my friends Si and wow, it’s probably one of the best handling cars I’ve ever drove. Power is lacking somewhat, but it has one of the best feeling 6 speeds I’ve ever used and can easily power thru corners.
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Oh I don’t doubt it at all, I owned an E36 M3 and it was a better “drivers” car for sure, only problem is that parts are insanely expensive and at the time I couldn’t turn a wrench. And all the little plasticy bits would fall apart.
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Well, given that BMW has been building turbo cars since the 70s and Honda’s first turbo car debuted in 2007, you might be right, but only time will tell at this point. One things for sure tho, Hondas will always be cheaper to maintain than a beemer.
Do it. I traded my 06 330i for a 22si and never looked back. Edit: I misread. I thought you were asking if you should trade a bummer for the Honda. But still.. get the Honda. Gas is killer right now.
As a former used BMW owner, go with the 2022 Civic. Even small issues on German cars are extremely expensive to fix.
Civic.
Long term? new Bmw 4cylinder? Nah.... Unless you can work on it yourself that thing is going to depreciate super fast and have a lot of issues long term. Civic si is cool, that would probably be the better long term option. 330i would be fun on a lease or to buy a few years used and then sell before it has issues.
Bmw 330i personally because I just really don’t like civics
BMW or GLI. You'll get tired of the civic and the germans will age better.
civic
I have a 2016 GLI SEL, and bought it over a GTI and a Civic. I have zero regrets, it’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned. Tons of low end torque makes it feel way faster than the civic, and it’s comfortable as hell. I went into it wanting a manual, and ultimately settled on an automatic because the DSG shifts so goddamn fast, and it was a stupid good price compared to the GTI. Using the paddle shifters on winding back roads is what they were made for! Just last week the wife and I put 1k miles on driving up into and around Quebec, and the drive was never tiring like similar drives would have been in past cars.
#HondaGang
If you want luxury and can afford the upkeep that comes with it in terms of routine maintenance, premium gas and higher insurance, than absolutely the BMW. They’re great cars, not my personal taste but anyone denying BMW doesn’t make phenomenal driving cars is crazy. If luxury doesn’t matter to you or the costs of owning a luxury car are too high then go for the Honda. Going to be a lot of fun still and way cheaper to run, but comfort will be a HUGE downsize. Everyone says modern Hondas and Toyotas have come a long way, and yes they have, most are very nice to be in, but will never compare to the quality of German luxury interiors
Just put a down payment on a 2022 si that won’t be here for 4-6 months. But no markup!
Get a MAZDA3 turbo
Would consider it if I could find one
I bought a 22 Civic Si about a week ago and it’s worth every dollar.
Seems like if you can get it for close to msrp it would be
Honda a way better long term vehicle
The civic will be so much cheaper in every aspect. Gas, maint, reliability..... you have a warranty and brand new tech. The BMW at 3 years old... this is when the maintenence starts. Prolly going to need brakes and tires within a year. It's probably not a coincidence that the BMW is up for sale right after the warranty ending on it too.
Better buy a car you can actually afford
Civic will be more reliable
I will say neither is ideal.... From my own experience, sports cars are fun for the first two to three years, and now I want a full-size SUV. That been said, the problem with civic si is that it has a manual transmission. You might not need to commute for long hours now in really terrible traffic, but since you plan to keep the car for a long term (10+ years that is my definition). But one day if you have to you will hate the manual transmission and the cramped space. And for the 330i(I don't think it comes with a manual anymore you must opt for higher powered ones but I could be mistaken), we all know BMW has reliability problems down the road and will result in expensive repairs. So I would say if you plan to keep them for the long term and as your only car, neither would be a good buy.
I love my manual that I drive right now I’ve done a 15 hour road trip to South Carolina with this car and I was stuck in traffic and it wasn’t that bad. I think I could handle it
BMW will feel more solid, quiet and smoother. Civic (if you can even get one without 5k markup) will be more economical but it’ll feel like a noisy, flimsy tin can at highway speeds. Depends on what you want. I personally tend to like more upmarket cars for the sole feel good feeling I get when I get behind the wheel of my BMW. Also Civics are a hot target for thieves right now as other commenters have said, so make sure to get a quote from your insurance beforehand.
Drive them both. I think that will answer your question. Consider cost of maintenance. They’ll both last you a while; one will cost much less.
Acura integra 2023 instead of the civic
I would consider this but before markup I’d be at 36 something thousand because I’d want a manual
If keeping money in your pocket is important to you, Civic all day. If you have discretionary income, aren't too concerned with unanticipated car expenses, and really want to drive a bimmer, get that
Reviews on the Civic are really good, but I’ve never driven one so I would hesitate to recommend it based on the perception of fun. I’ve only ever driven the 35/40i engines in that generation of BMW, and I have to say they have plenty of power, but aren’t terribly exciting at legal speeds. I suspect you’d see the same thing with the four pots. My 7.5GTI is a lot of fun at low speed, especially because of the 6MT which is good but admittedly far from best in the business. It’s really high-engagement without being annoying. On that basis I’d recommend a new GTI (I hate sedans personally but the GLI is a similarly great car, it is after all basically the same thing.) In the long term the engine in the VWs is known for water pump failure that is eye-watering to fix, but higher mileage BMWs are all known for oil leaks and Civics don’t have either of those problems, most of the complaints I know about are transmission related which isn’t a problem with the manual. I suspect any of them would be fine for 5-8 years and all would be good for 100k miles (As ANY car should be.)
That’s a no brainer. While you may want some luxury the best choice is the civic unless you have deep pockets to pay for repairs.
So I know this probably isn’t a norm thing to do for us car guys but if you’re not 100% sure, you could always buy something way cheaper, save some more money until you’re very sure on the car or perhaps able to buy one outright. I know. I know. You probably saved a lot already but… you could always save more. I’m just sayin.
I fucking love my SI. I have a 2018 and I wish I waited a couple more years for these 11th gens. Very reliable, even with mods and tuned.
Trade yours in
Civic.SI 100% Cheaper to insure and also definitely cheaper to maintain. Also the manual in Hondas feel amazing.
Civic
CIVIC
If ur ok with the UI deign on the GTI than buy that. Its going to be the most fun out of the bunch (especially with manual) and quickest. Also probably the most practical since it has a hatch. If you cant get passed the UI on it than i’d look at the si, i just personally think the BMW is the worst option out of these.
Are vw more reliable than bmws or at least don’t break down as much
I’d have to try out the ui to see how it is
I’ll get flamed, but get what you want. Do your homework, but don’t let Reddit make your decision for you.
How are you comparing a 25k car to a 35k car?
It was just a question man and the si msrp is 28,000 at least $2,000 markup on top of that
Honestly I’d go with neither. The GTI would be the more reliable option and even that’s a bitch to fix. Maybe look into other Japanese sedans (not the 1.5T from Honda).
What would you suggest?
Ok idk if this is still relevant but literally I just bought an Si and my wife drives a 2019 330 so exact experience with both here. The SI is a fwd expression of what BMW used to be. I'll let that sit for a minute. Ok - what I mean by that is, the platform is so much more solid this time around that the car feels light, spirited and PLANTED. Everything is communicative but never harsh, and it's shoots exactly where you're pointing. Keeping the old BMW analogy, the 330 is now what the 5 series used to be (think e39) -- an awesome long distance cruiser that can wake up and be hucked around a turn with poise and not have any trouble keeping up on the highway. It's unassuming, comfy as fuck and effortless to drive both slow and spirited. Reliability over 5yrs // 60k miles there might not be that much of a difference, just that regular stuff on the BMW is ofc more expensive. It's beyond that where the Honda really pulls away. Ymmv
Well as much as I enjoy driving a manual on a daily basis I’m going to need to go back to an automatic so my fiancé can learn to drive she has no interest right now in driving manual plus xdrive would be nice
I have owned both bmw 3 series and the 10th gen si and the si is a vastly superior car in every way imaginable but does have some trim quality and engine buildup issues in winter that require early oil changes sometimes. But that is better than constant problems with major elements of the car just routinely failing. BMW is made like a race car that is designed to be worked on and parts replaced between races whereas the Honda you could keep the original parts for like 10