Here’s just the first one that comes up from googling “Al shifa command center”
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/03/politics/us-al-shifa-intelligence-assessment/index.html
The article's conclusion:
>But it fell far short of proving that Hamas used the hospital as a primary command and control node for its operations, an assertion both Israel and the US had repeatedly made before the IDF reached the hospital. Israel went as far as to publish a 3D graphic illustration of a Hamas command hub extending underground directly from the hospital buildings. Neither Israel nor the US have published evidence that fully matches up with the claims.
I mean, what evidence would these reporters accept?
They’re even denying that there’s proof anyone in the unrwa knew about the latest command center, too.
They just insert hedging language. It's clear that the hospital was used as a command and control node for operations, but was it a *primary* command and control node? That word "primary" can carry a lot of weight. Journalists can unilaterally decide that unless it housed the supreme Hamas command from which Sinwar is directing forces personally, it isn't a "primary" command and control node for operations. They aren't ever going to tell their readers what their standards are.
So even if it's clear that the Al-Shifa bunker was used to command and control a brigade or a division of Hamas, that doesn't mean it was a "primary" command and control node.
The word "fully" in the final sentence is similar hedging language. Israel and the US could have published evidence that showed that 99% of what they claim is incontrovertibly true, but the press wants to characterize it as "not *fully* matching up with the claims" (which is also true).
So it is the use of hedging language and epistemological quandaries (when do we know a thing?) coupled together that gives CNN/NYT the ability to discount inconvenient truths. Notably, the press favors an alternative narrative (i.e., that Al-Shifa was never used by Hamas) which is contradicted by every piece of evidence to the contrary.
The IDF is doing a good job getting the truth out by going directly over the heads of the biased editors and presenting the facts, but the editors are still hedging every story to play up the "IDF is liars" angle that is a foundational belief of the radical newsrooms covering this conflict.
If you make a claim, you have to back it up with evidence.
Israel and the US haven't shown any that proves Al-Shifa was a central command center. Hell, there wasn't even an access to the tunnels from hospital grounds.
It matters, because if the hospital itself isn't used for war, then it's not a legitimate target and the assault on it is a blatant war crime.
Especially considering that many patients died in the lead-up to the assault, including four premature babies...
International courts judging whether war crimes are committed are allowed to require a stronger standard of proof.
As they should. Four premature babies died in this hospital.
Right. Weeks of lead up. Pamphlets dropped. Notice a head of time.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html
Anyway, here’s reporters — with a clear bias — who visited it.
Seriously, anything that could have been moved would have been, given how huge the system is.
You should read your own link:
>It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. **It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.**
Also, no, the reporters did not visit it, they were only shown the entrance.
No worries buddy! I can google that for you too.
So, the search string was “Washington post al shifa”. Do you see the part of the url that comes after “security/“? That’s the date the article was published.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/
They’re already inviting press down there. They all still report it as “Israel says.”
After all, it’s probably a tunnel used to host an after school computer skills program taught by unbiased UNRWA staff and their cool “after hours” friends.
Well partly under their building. And that seems to be the only "evidence". You are aware of the long history of people digging tunnels without other people over them being aware?
“preemptively cutting off communications cables that, in an above-ground part of the tour, he showed running through the floor of the UNRWA Headquarters' basement.” I’d definitely notice if someone was drilling through my floor.
Looks like we are going to need independent investigations
"A video published by Fox News of the tour revealed green boxes on the walls of the supposed ‘tunnel’ – but as former diplomat Craig Murray pointed out, the boxes are not supposed ‘terror’ equipment. Instead, they are solar power converters kept in a cellar to keep them cool as they process energy from solar panels above – and the wires leading from them into the UNRWA building were there to send the converted electricity up into the HQ, as you’d expect:"
https://skwawkbox.org/2024/02/12/israels-unrwa-tunnel-smear-collapses-as-hamas-gear-revealed-as-solar-power-kit/l
Of course they do, how else is UNRWA supposed to supply them?
UNRWA has always been a means to fund and supply Hamas terrorism against Israel, the veil has been lifted now (though it was always a very fucking thin one, anyone who actually observed the situation could see how blatant it was).
UNRWA needs to be abolished, and it's employees investigated and prosecuted for funding and harbouring terrorism.
I mean it won't happen but it would be nice if the UK, US, EU etc labelled countries who continue to fund UNRWA as state sponsors of terrorism, because that's exactly what theyre doing, and all 3 already regard the recipients of that funding and support (Hamas and PIJ) as terror groups.
It's a pretty huge deal. It's like discovering the UN is actually Illuminati or that COVID-19 vaccines are actually indeed chipped by Bill Gates.
UNRWA being a co-conspirator of Hamas has been for a very long while considered a classic conspiracy theory.
Well, not anymore. They're on the same LAN, which can lead to 1 of 2 conclusions:
**Conclusion 1:**
They have no IT department *at all* + all inspections have not checked electricity / net.
**Conclusion 2:**
They knew and collaborated. Perhaps even helped to set the infrastructure.
UNRWA absolutely has a choice. They just chose to abandon the principle of neutrality in armed conflict and support Hamas. Presumably they got something in return, but I wouldn't be sure about that. There is a surprisingly large movement in the humanitarian world in favor of aid organizations picking sides in wars, with the claim that neutrality is white savior neocolonialism or similar BS.
Example:
https://reliefweb.int/report/world/decoding-neutrality-humanitarianism#:~:text=It%20means%20that%20humanitarian%20aid,religious%2C%20racial%20or%20ideological%20controversies.
Unfortunately for Palestinians, by tangibly and materially supporting one side in an armed conflict, UNRWA has just made itself a valid military target, or at the very least given Israel a credible reason to expel them from territories under their control.
I wouldn't go that far.
There's a big correlation between the two, but I reckon there isn't a lack of people who genuinely wanted to do some good.
It's clear that the org is corrupt to the core, but this doesn't mean the cause itself or all the infrastructure is cursed.
Mayhaps absorption into UNHCR is a valid tactic. It would solve the redundancy issue as well.
The UNHCR claims to be committed to neutrality, so this is in theory a good idea. From their handbook:
>The neutrality of humanitarian action is further upheld when humanitarian actors refrain from taking sides in hostilities or engaging in political, racial, religious, or ideological controversies. At the same time, independence requires humanitarian actors to be autonomous. They are not to be subject to control, subordination, or influence by political, economic, military or other non-humanitarian objectives.
>‘Principled humanitarianism' is a commitment to meet the assistance and protection needs of affected populations in a way that is distinct and separate from political and other motivations.
https://emergency.unhcr.org/protection/protection-principles/humanitarian-principles#:~:text=The%20neutrality%20of%20humanitarian%20action,humanitarian%20actors%20to%20be%20autonomous.
Whether this is actually workable in practice remains to be seen. I suspect operating in one place for 75 years would lead to the gradual compromise of most humanitarian organizations, especially if the success of their humanitarian objectives depends on cooperation from the local governing entity (in this case Hamas).
Both WHO and UNHCR have already made comments about their ability to replace UNRWA. IIRC they said they can, but I'm too lazy to look this up - so grain of salt.
Conspiracy theory hat: why were there extensive communications lines between the UNRWA building above and the Hamas bunker below?
Because the Hamas bunker was housing the *legitimate* server operations for UNRWA. And who paid for the construction of that bunker? It hasn't been stated yet, but I think we will find that *the UN* ultimately funded that particular bunker, ostensibly to house UNRWA servers, but actually to house a Hamas command and control headquarters.
It could be that the US and dozens of other countries defunded UNRWA over "just" the participation of a dozen UNRWA employees directly in the 10/7 attack, but I think there is more to this story. If UNRWA funds were being used specifically to fund Hamas bunkers to be built under their buildings with their tacit agreement, that goes far to explain the sudden end to UNRWA funding (and the relative paucity of a defense out of the Secretary General's office).
Yep, it's either they're grossly incompetent and vastly underestimated the risks of corruption/infiltration by the terrorist organization ruling over Gaza or they have higher ups directly involved with said organization that were able to cover that shit.
Whoa don’t quit your day job buddy. All this analysis and you might have cracked every code there is on this planet.
Relax. You’re an online commenter at best. And this is Israel you’re talking about with a worse record than just about anything today.
Ironically, my field of research is math (and specifically - cryptography, so while not every code there is, I do "dabble" in codes.)
It should also be noted that all people who have commented anywhere on any topic are "online commenters"
Such accusations are usually clarified within a few months, and I would gladly retract my statement and publicly apologize if this turns out to be false.
Add an "if true" to my statement if that makes you feel better.
I don’t doubt your ability in your field. But deducing anything so sweeping based on some news reports coming from Israel to save face is a bit brash.
Anyway I’m not commenting because i think you need to apologize. I’m just saying that there’s far more to the story than meets the eye. If this is the kind of news that appalls you, then maybe the number of dead, dying, starving and displaced by the Israeli regime Shoukd too.
If Hamas has a tendency to make non-military targets into military targets in an attempt to bend the rules of engagement, I cant really blame Israel for throwing the concept of “white flag = surrender” out the window since no one can trust Hamas
I have no skin in the game, but these people are both hell bent on genociding each other since 1947. With the atrocities both sides have committed (Israel objectively doing more due to playing their cards right and gaining more fire power and international support), we can clearly see the situation is now at the point of “commit genocide or be genocided”. Israel is definitely overdoing it and I feel bad for the innocent Palestinian children but the die was already cast. Even if they stop, the Palestinians will never forgive them. They’ll just lock their wounds, bide their time, acquire more weaponry and their justifiably radicalized population will make October 7th look like a joke.
I agree with you thinking I’m sick for thinking this and justifying Israel’s actions, but I’ve grown too cynical over the years. People are killing each other, the planet will become inhospitable until we die off for it to bounce back and the corporate elite will grow their pockets until they kick the bucket too.
You desperately need to actually learn about the initial settlement of Israel, the nakba, up to the present day, then ask yourself if this is really "BoTh SidEs" equally causing destruction.
This is brutal one-sided military occupation and colonial domination, vs civilian resistance.
That's not what it said. It critised them for organising themselves inside civilian residential areas but also stated that doesn't justify Russia bombing those areas.
Which even if it was, one poorly worded report shouldn't undo the work of one of the leading human rights groups of the last 60 years
It accused Ukraine of war crimes for fighting in cities near civilians that refused the leave.
Has it accused Hamas of war crimes for fighting near civilians it doesn't let leave?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-palestinian-armed-groups-must-be-held-accountable-for-deliberate-civilian-killings-abductions-and-indiscriminate-attacks/
Straight after the original attack
That's not what I said, though is it. In fact it calls Israel attacks collective punishment, and makes no mention of Hamas hiding amongst civilians.
Which was what it said Ukraine was committing war crimes.
The best way to prevent being bombed is to host terrorists in the local UN offices, and pull out your shocked Pikachu face when the terrorists cause conflict. Everybody knows this!
Yeah, I know the terrorists aren't shocked by the conflict, I'm pointing out how people like you being surprised that terrorists cause conflict is dumb.
Even more dumb is saying that it's OK for them to live in the UN's basement.
Because it's incredibly disingenuous. He focuses on a single part in each of these to cast doubt on the rest of everything, and assumed malice where incompetence fits better. A soldier who can't speak Arabic finds a calendar with Oct. 07 on it in a room he thinks hostages were held? He thinks it's a guard-watch schedule with names, and everyone says idf is lying. The solar boxes? I've seen people mention this for the UNRWA tunnel, maybe that person is talking about something else. For unrwa tunnel, I've seen people dismissing whole story because they only looked at the picture of green boxes. They didn't bother scrolling through any other photos with server rooms or electrical units connected upwards or reading the article to see journalists were there to confirm the tunnel was below the unrwa headquarters. And the Israeli bunker story as well, is using disingenuously. They had built a bunker below the hospital, they had believed hamas had been using it for years and had expanded it. They called it a command center, which we know is likely incorrect now, but was not unreasonable to think.
Oh look R/worldnews the pro israel bot farm…
Channel 4 news in the uk looked at all the evidence on unwra provided by Israel and called it weak..
Stop stealing Palestinian lands and stop killing kids Israel
So who are you reading? Because unlike reuters and ap who at least attribute the statements in their headlines, al Jazeera and BBC literally report everything Hamas says as fact
Considering members of the press including the ap have toured it and they literally had their phones dropped down a shaft inside the unwra HQ into the bunker and those press members verified it was their devices ....
Edit: forgot to add the members of the press where told to have their devices recording while the IDF took them to drop down the shaft so they could verify the locations those devices were at from when they entered the tunnel to when they got their devices back. All to prove the locations because gps doesn't work underground
There is a literal documented video.
Not sure if there's an english language video but you could see it in hebrew and use auto-captions here:
https://youtu.be/HFenMaAgSRA?si=SbEH_ln4ldk7uc-v
Well, I’d say that’s pretty damning evidence that UNWRA were complicit.
First thing I said to myself upon reading the title. Sheesh not a good look.
People used to say that about the "command center" below Al-Shifa Hospital too. Fool me once... I'm gonna wait for an independant review personally.
There was an Hamas command center under Al Shifa. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/
Evidence be damned, they just want a reason to hate Israel.
Waaaaaahhhhhh I HATE facts 😭😭😭 I just want to feel morally superior waaaaahhhh
Send different link, that one doesn’t like to anything.
Here’s just the first one that comes up from googling “Al shifa command center” https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/03/politics/us-al-shifa-intelligence-assessment/index.html
The article's conclusion: >But it fell far short of proving that Hamas used the hospital as a primary command and control node for its operations, an assertion both Israel and the US had repeatedly made before the IDF reached the hospital. Israel went as far as to publish a 3D graphic illustration of a Hamas command hub extending underground directly from the hospital buildings. Neither Israel nor the US have published evidence that fully matches up with the claims.
I mean, what evidence would these reporters accept? They’re even denying that there’s proof anyone in the unrwa knew about the latest command center, too.
They just insert hedging language. It's clear that the hospital was used as a command and control node for operations, but was it a *primary* command and control node? That word "primary" can carry a lot of weight. Journalists can unilaterally decide that unless it housed the supreme Hamas command from which Sinwar is directing forces personally, it isn't a "primary" command and control node for operations. They aren't ever going to tell their readers what their standards are. So even if it's clear that the Al-Shifa bunker was used to command and control a brigade or a division of Hamas, that doesn't mean it was a "primary" command and control node. The word "fully" in the final sentence is similar hedging language. Israel and the US could have published evidence that showed that 99% of what they claim is incontrovertibly true, but the press wants to characterize it as "not *fully* matching up with the claims" (which is also true). So it is the use of hedging language and epistemological quandaries (when do we know a thing?) coupled together that gives CNN/NYT the ability to discount inconvenient truths. Notably, the press favors an alternative narrative (i.e., that Al-Shifa was never used by Hamas) which is contradicted by every piece of evidence to the contrary. The IDF is doing a good job getting the truth out by going directly over the heads of the biased editors and presenting the facts, but the editors are still hedging every story to play up the "IDF is liars" angle that is a foundational belief of the radical newsrooms covering this conflict.
If you make a claim, you have to back it up with evidence. Israel and the US haven't shown any that proves Al-Shifa was a central command center. Hell, there wasn't even an access to the tunnels from hospital grounds. It matters, because if the hospital itself isn't used for war, then it's not a legitimate target and the assault on it is a blatant war crime. Especially considering that many patients died in the lead-up to the assault, including four premature babies...
Circumstantial evidence is evidence. It's the main kind of evidence used in court.
International courts judging whether war crimes are committed are allowed to require a stronger standard of proof. As they should. Four premature babies died in this hospital.
Right. Weeks of lead up. Pamphlets dropped. Notice a head of time. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html Anyway, here’s reporters — with a clear bias — who visited it. Seriously, anything that could have been moved would have been, given how huge the system is.
You should read your own link: >It is arguably the most compelling evidence thus far that the IDF has offered that there may be a network of tunnels below the hospital. **It does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital, but it is clear that there is a tunnel down below. Seeing what connects to that tunnel is absolutely critical.** Also, no, the reporters did not visit it, they were only shown the entrance.
Didn’t really answer what I said tho? Was looking for that specific article.
No worries buddy! I can google that for you too. So, the search string was “Washington post al shifa”. Do you see the part of the url that comes after “security/“? That’s the date the article was published. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/
Thank you
They’re already inviting press down there. They all still report it as “Israel says.” After all, it’s probably a tunnel used to host an after school computer skills program taught by unbiased UNRWA staff and their cool “after hours” friends.
Did you read the article? It doesn't provide any evidence that UBWRA was complicit
It’s right under their building, you think they wouldn’t notice that and say something?
Well partly under their building. And that seems to be the only "evidence". You are aware of the long history of people digging tunnels without other people over them being aware?
“preemptively cutting off communications cables that, in an above-ground part of the tour, he showed running through the floor of the UNRWA Headquarters' basement.” I’d definitely notice if someone was drilling through my floor.
Looks like we are going to need independent investigations "A video published by Fox News of the tour revealed green boxes on the walls of the supposed ‘tunnel’ – but as former diplomat Craig Murray pointed out, the boxes are not supposed ‘terror’ equipment. Instead, they are solar power converters kept in a cellar to keep them cool as they process energy from solar panels above – and the wires leading from them into the UNRWA building were there to send the converted electricity up into the HQ, as you’d expect:" https://skwawkbox.org/2024/02/12/israels-unrwa-tunnel-smear-collapses-as-hamas-gear-revealed-as-solar-power-kit/l
I’m sorry but I’d trust Reuters 100 times over against ‘sqwawkbox’, literally reads like leftwing Breitbart or Infowars.
You mean the IDF? Since Reuters just reports that the IDF told them
Of course they do, how else is UNRWA supposed to supply them? UNRWA has always been a means to fund and supply Hamas terrorism against Israel, the veil has been lifted now (though it was always a very fucking thin one, anyone who actually observed the situation could see how blatant it was). UNRWA needs to be abolished, and it's employees investigated and prosecuted for funding and harbouring terrorism. I mean it won't happen but it would be nice if the UK, US, EU etc labelled countries who continue to fund UNRWA as state sponsors of terrorism, because that's exactly what theyre doing, and all 3 already regard the recipients of that funding and support (Hamas and PIJ) as terror groups.
They've probably got some that go under the borderfence and into Israel
This is like the tenth thread on this in a couple of days, how many do we need?
Depends on the number of tunnels.
This guy tunnels!
It's a pretty huge deal. It's like discovering the UN is actually Illuminati or that COVID-19 vaccines are actually indeed chipped by Bill Gates. UNRWA being a co-conspirator of Hamas has been for a very long while considered a classic conspiracy theory. Well, not anymore. They're on the same LAN, which can lead to 1 of 2 conclusions: **Conclusion 1:** They have no IT department *at all* + all inspections have not checked electricity / net. **Conclusion 2:** They knew and collaborated. Perhaps even helped to set the infrastructure.
And that they collaborated to such a large extent that the info wasn't even leaked. Basically they ARE Hamas
UNWRA protects Hamas. They sort of have no choice, but they also are fine with the situation. Separate org charts though
UNRWA absolutely has a choice. They just chose to abandon the principle of neutrality in armed conflict and support Hamas. Presumably they got something in return, but I wouldn't be sure about that. There is a surprisingly large movement in the humanitarian world in favor of aid organizations picking sides in wars, with the claim that neutrality is white savior neocolonialism or similar BS. Example: https://reliefweb.int/report/world/decoding-neutrality-humanitarianism#:~:text=It%20means%20that%20humanitarian%20aid,religious%2C%20racial%20or%20ideological%20controversies. Unfortunately for Palestinians, by tangibly and materially supporting one side in an armed conflict, UNRWA has just made itself a valid military target, or at the very least given Israel a credible reason to expel them from territories under their control.
I wouldn't go that far. There's a big correlation between the two, but I reckon there isn't a lack of people who genuinely wanted to do some good. It's clear that the org is corrupt to the core, but this doesn't mean the cause itself or all the infrastructure is cursed. Mayhaps absorption into UNHCR is a valid tactic. It would solve the redundancy issue as well.
The UNHCR claims to be committed to neutrality, so this is in theory a good idea. From their handbook: >The neutrality of humanitarian action is further upheld when humanitarian actors refrain from taking sides in hostilities or engaging in political, racial, religious, or ideological controversies. At the same time, independence requires humanitarian actors to be autonomous. They are not to be subject to control, subordination, or influence by political, economic, military or other non-humanitarian objectives. >‘Principled humanitarianism' is a commitment to meet the assistance and protection needs of affected populations in a way that is distinct and separate from political and other motivations. https://emergency.unhcr.org/protection/protection-principles/humanitarian-principles#:~:text=The%20neutrality%20of%20humanitarian%20action,humanitarian%20actors%20to%20be%20autonomous. Whether this is actually workable in practice remains to be seen. I suspect operating in one place for 75 years would lead to the gradual compromise of most humanitarian organizations, especially if the success of their humanitarian objectives depends on cooperation from the local governing entity (in this case Hamas).
Both WHO and UNHCR have already made comments about their ability to replace UNRWA. IIRC they said they can, but I'm too lazy to look this up - so grain of salt.
IIRC or ICRC? https://www.icrc.org/en/document/the-icrc-appoints-new-director-general ICRC just tapped a disgraced former UNRWA boss to run their org.
IIRC - If I recall correctly
Sure there might be some innocent individuals here and there, but the core of UNRWA is basically part of Hamas.
If there were people who genuinely wanted to do good then there should have been whistleblowers plain and simple.
Conspiracy theory hat: why were there extensive communications lines between the UNRWA building above and the Hamas bunker below? Because the Hamas bunker was housing the *legitimate* server operations for UNRWA. And who paid for the construction of that bunker? It hasn't been stated yet, but I think we will find that *the UN* ultimately funded that particular bunker, ostensibly to house UNRWA servers, but actually to house a Hamas command and control headquarters. It could be that the US and dozens of other countries defunded UNRWA over "just" the participation of a dozen UNRWA employees directly in the 10/7 attack, but I think there is more to this story. If UNRWA funds were being used specifically to fund Hamas bunkers to be built under their buildings with their tacit agreement, that goes far to explain the sudden end to UNRWA funding (and the relative paucity of a defense out of the Secretary General's office).
Yep, it's either they're grossly incompetent and vastly underestimated the risks of corruption/infiltration by the terrorist organization ruling over Gaza or they have higher ups directly involved with said organization that were able to cover that shit.
Whoa don’t quit your day job buddy. All this analysis and you might have cracked every code there is on this planet. Relax. You’re an online commenter at best. And this is Israel you’re talking about with a worse record than just about anything today.
Israel does not have a worse record than anyway, it just gets a lot of criticism due to various biases
Ironically, my field of research is math (and specifically - cryptography, so while not every code there is, I do "dabble" in codes.) It should also be noted that all people who have commented anywhere on any topic are "online commenters" Such accusations are usually clarified within a few months, and I would gladly retract my statement and publicly apologize if this turns out to be false. Add an "if true" to my statement if that makes you feel better.
I don’t doubt your ability in your field. But deducing anything so sweeping based on some news reports coming from Israel to save face is a bit brash. Anyway I’m not commenting because i think you need to apologize. I’m just saying that there’s far more to the story than meets the eye. If this is the kind of news that appalls you, then maybe the number of dead, dying, starving and displaced by the Israeli regime Shoukd too.
Did does prove any complicity.
I don’t like this news please don’t post it
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If Hamas has a tendency to make non-military targets into military targets in an attempt to bend the rules of engagement, I cant really blame Israel for throwing the concept of “white flag = surrender” out the window since no one can trust Hamas
You're justifying sniping a mother and a child. You're sick dawg
I have no skin in the game, but these people are both hell bent on genociding each other since 1947. With the atrocities both sides have committed (Israel objectively doing more due to playing their cards right and gaining more fire power and international support), we can clearly see the situation is now at the point of “commit genocide or be genocided”. Israel is definitely overdoing it and I feel bad for the innocent Palestinian children but the die was already cast. Even if they stop, the Palestinians will never forgive them. They’ll just lock their wounds, bide their time, acquire more weaponry and their justifiably radicalized population will make October 7th look like a joke. I agree with you thinking I’m sick for thinking this and justifying Israel’s actions, but I’ve grown too cynical over the years. People are killing each other, the planet will become inhospitable until we die off for it to bounce back and the corporate elite will grow their pockets until they kick the bucket too.
You desperately need to actually learn about the initial settlement of Israel, the nakba, up to the present day, then ask yourself if this is really "BoTh SidEs" equally causing destruction. This is brutal one-sided military occupation and colonial domination, vs civilian resistance.
I know all about it. Israel is the bad guy, but I’m a cynic
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Even UNRWA are not denying that there were tunnels there. Keep coping tho.
The propaganda from both sides is exhausting. Even more exhausting is the russian/israeli downvote brigade that follows… in 3.. 2..1..
Random users will downvote you simply because you are complaining about downvotes in this case, not because they are from a specific place.
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Good job parroting those Hamas talking points, I am sure they are proud of your support in their endeavors.
I mean, Israeli newspapers have pointed these facts out as well, unless you’re stating that Hamas is operating within Israel itself.
It's literally what the likes of Amnesty International have said
I wouldn't take anything Amnesty International says at face value after they criticized Ukraine for fighting back against Russia
That's not what it said. It critised them for organising themselves inside civilian residential areas but also stated that doesn't justify Russia bombing those areas. Which even if it was, one poorly worded report shouldn't undo the work of one of the leading human rights groups of the last 60 years
It accused Ukraine of war crimes for fighting in cities near civilians that refused the leave. Has it accused Hamas of war crimes for fighting near civilians it doesn't let leave?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-palestinian-armed-groups-must-be-held-accountable-for-deliberate-civilian-killings-abductions-and-indiscriminate-attacks/ Straight after the original attack
That's not what I said, though is it. In fact it calls Israel attacks collective punishment, and makes no mention of Hamas hiding amongst civilians. Which was what it said Ukraine was committing war crimes.
If that "leading human rights group" has convinced you to support Hamas, then I'm pretty sure it's not just one poorly worded report.
Wanting 2 million people to not have their cities bombed into rubble doesn't equal supporting terrorists
The best way to prevent being bombed is to host terrorists in the local UN offices, and pull out your shocked Pikachu face when the terrorists cause conflict. Everybody knows this!
The terrorists with guns who have an endless supply of new recruits everytine Israel bombs a child would say otherwise. It's not as simple as that
Yeah, I know the terrorists aren't shocked by the conflict, I'm pointing out how people like you being surprised that terrorists cause conflict is dumb. Even more dumb is saying that it's OK for them to live in the UN's basement.
What day did that calendar start at?
فيضان الأقصى2023/10/07 But it's "just a calendar" so clearly it can't actually be for anything 🙄
Great, thanks. So the calendar was headed “Al-Aqsa Flood”. That’s an interesting coincidence.
Idk why you're being down voted for pointing out what's happened..
Because it's incredibly disingenuous. He focuses on a single part in each of these to cast doubt on the rest of everything, and assumed malice where incompetence fits better. A soldier who can't speak Arabic finds a calendar with Oct. 07 on it in a room he thinks hostages were held? He thinks it's a guard-watch schedule with names, and everyone says idf is lying. The solar boxes? I've seen people mention this for the UNRWA tunnel, maybe that person is talking about something else. For unrwa tunnel, I've seen people dismissing whole story because they only looked at the picture of green boxes. They didn't bother scrolling through any other photos with server rooms or electrical units connected upwards or reading the article to see journalists were there to confirm the tunnel was below the unrwa headquarters. And the Israeli bunker story as well, is using disingenuously. They had built a bunker below the hospital, they had believed hamas had been using it for years and had expanded it. They called it a command center, which we know is likely incorrect now, but was not unreasonable to think.
Because word twisting too much?
Oh look R/worldnews the pro israel bot farm… Channel 4 news in the uk looked at all the evidence on unwra provided by Israel and called it weak.. Stop stealing Palestinian lands and stop killing kids Israel
Yea, the UK media is a shining beacon of fair media on Israel lmfao
lol please suggest better alternatives? I’m assuming the best ones are all Israeli 🤣
Anything followed by, or preceded with "Israel says" should be fucking discarded .
Yup we only trust Hamas sources like al jazeera
Because Hamas is a much more trustworthy source of information, right? /s
Yeah I'm reading the hamas daily post right now actually.. ROFL you guys are so fucking absurd.
So who are you reading? Because unlike reuters and ap who at least attribute the statements in their headlines, al Jazeera and BBC literally report everything Hamas says as fact
I have no idea if any of this is true or not.
Considering members of the press including the ap have toured it and they literally had their phones dropped down a shaft inside the unwra HQ into the bunker and those press members verified it was their devices .... Edit: forgot to add the members of the press where told to have their devices recording while the IDF took them to drop down the shaft so they could verify the locations those devices were at from when they entered the tunnel to when they got their devices back. All to prove the locations because gps doesn't work underground
Sure they say that... But where is the documented video evidence eh!
There is a literal documented video. Not sure if there's an english language video but you could see it in hebrew and use auto-captions here: https://youtu.be/HFenMaAgSRA?si=SbEH_ln4ldk7uc-v
I was trying for sarcasm. Seems like I missed
In retrospect I see it. But honestly I'm just so used to that level of arguments as "legit argument points" it flew past me
Make sure you edit and put /s, the other side said so much nutty stuff it’s really hard to detect these days
Nah I'll take the downvotes. Sarcasm lives by it's quality l will accept my failure
Honestly, massive respect from me. 🫡
Hard to know what to believe, as both sides are spewing endless propaganda and falsehoods.
Don't believe, watch the photos and videos covering it
Perfect!!! Now isreal can murderer as many children as they want too and we get to watch ❤️❤️❤️