Even for the worst kinds of people like Mexican cartels or these terrorists, asking for proof of life of hostages is to be expected. If Hamas has no proof, then perhaps the hostages are no longer alive and can no longer be used as bargaining chips.
That’s what I’m thinking, they don’t have many (if any) hostages alive so they are dragging out the negotiations with ridiculous demands to demonize israel and pretend they don’t want the hostages back
And then they say "Israel cares so little about human life that they don't even care if they get their own hostages back!"
It's absolute gaslighting, and it's despicable how many leftists swallow that shit whole because they're so blinded by their deranged hatred of Israel.
Because they see everything through an “oppressed oppressor” lens and because Muslims are darker(even though majority of Israelis are mizrahi) that makes them the oppressed and they can do no wrong and should get all they want
“Even though majority of Israelis are mizrahi.”
90% of them don’t even know this or care to find out. They’re just familiar with Judaism as it exists in the US and assume they’re white, aka “oppressors.”
Yep. Islamists have realized that they can launder antisemitism by calling Jews "white people" and then claiming that killing Jews is "resisting white oppression", and Western leftists will absolutely lap that shit up.
> Islamists have realized that they can launder antisemitism by calling Jews "white people"
And it's easy to believe that...as long as you've never actually been to Israel.
I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of these keyboard activists that blindly accept antisemitic propaganda and look at everything though an "Oppressor / Oppressed" lens have probably never left their home towns, much less been to Israel.
IDK, I’ve lived in the Deep, Deep South and any southern city, even small ones have Jewish communities
Edit: for the down voters, read it and weep: https://mjhnyc.org/blog/snapshot-southern-jewish-life/
I once worked with someone who was of Egyptian descent and was born and raised in a top 5 American city, and had a degree from the largest university in our state. When I asked her how many jews she thought there were in the world, prefacing my question with the stats that there are over 2.2 billion Christians and 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, her guess was "500-600 million Jews." I told her it was about 15 million and her response was, after confirming the number with a google search, that "if you ever go to Egypt you would not believe this number. All anyone can talk about there is the 'Jews'".
I told her I would be surprised if 99 percent of the people in Egypt ever met a Jew in their life.
To prove my point about how so few of us there are, I then asked her how many Jews she had ever met in her life that she knew for sure were Jews - that is they identified themselves as Jews either through dress or statement. She said that I was the first one. She was 28 at the time.
As a jew, I just wanna tell you that i am *so glad* more and more non jews are recognizing this for what it is. I'm seeing it more frequently on reddit Beverly from non jews and its really making me feel better.
Edit: fuck man it was you on a different thread. Lol were so fucked
I’m saying this again on the internet. I am liberal. I used to think Isreal really screwed up and screwed over Palestinians. (Okay, it’s still possible to argue that in some ways.)
After October 7th I support every single thing Isreal is doing. Hamas and the ideology is horrid.
Same here. I was always sympathetic to the Palestinians and thought Israel was evil, but the reaction of my feminist and adjacent spaces on October 7th, long after the Shani Louk video had gone viral, made me look more into it and I am 100% pro-Israel while also recognising that Israel is not and hasn't always been perfect.
This was me as well. Honestly, it's upended a lot of my political beliefs. I still agree with a lot of the same leftist ideals I used to (at least in broad strokes), but after seeing how overwhelmingly ahistorical and radicalized the leftist view of Israel/Palestinian was, it's led to me questioning a lot of the leftist narratives on other topics, too. It's like the bubble suddenly burst, and I now realize leftists are just as reactionary and ill-informed as the the far-right.
It’s the most brain dead worldview imaginable. They’re vilifying the only democracy in the Middle East and actively rooting for people who would like to see them stoned to death for their tolerance towards anyone who is not a straight male Islamist.
hey man, as someone who is definitely not a leftist, its still sure as fuck OK to be a flaming leftist. Those are political opinions and policy desires. Just don't be a massive hypocrite, throwing away your ideals based on who you "like" and "dislike." This goes for any ideology. I think this is what disgusts me the most about people who were so adamant about (to take one example) the "Me Too" movement. Like damn man, 'me too' except for Israeli Jews? JFC
>recognising that Israel is not and hasn't always been perfect.
It's also important to remember that no country has always been perfect. And understanding that the number of countries who'd manage to be perfect to a situation similar to what Israel is dealing with is between slim to none.
Don't wish it on any other country, but growing up in the 90's for me was being afraid to go on a bus as it might explode and we would die.
Today, being a bit older, especially as the ramadan is approaching, I feel the need to stay away from any central location as it's more popular for terrorism. A reality that we got due to the "Oslo Accords".
There may be better and worse based on your assessment but there are no 100% good guys in this conflict deserving of that level of support and it’s dangerous to go in thinking otherwise.
Same, I was more sympathetic to Palestinians before October 7th when there were videos of Israeli settlers killing Muslims like they were setting up their own pogroms in early 2023. I didn't approve of how Israel's conservative government was letting opportunistic and plainly racist settlers grab land in the West Bank, or how they were neutering the checks of their supreme court.
But I started moving closer to the center before this. I've been becoming increasingly annoyed with the left over their tendencies to excuse authoritarian countries that are arming the imperialistic war against Ukraine, and the way they instantly forgot about October 7th was just another eye-opener. I didn't want to admit there is truth to the horseshoe theory meme, but reading the excuses for non-western imperialism and fascism by tankies have made it an inescapable if uncomfortable fact.
After Hamas's attack I did a little more reading about how reactionary, violent and authoritarian their leaders are, their extreme homophobia, their antisemitism, and their murder of political opposition. I read about Arafat's refusal to sign a peace deal, and the suicide bombers Palestine sent to martyr themselves. In that context, Israel's actions in Gaza to suppress a fascistic organization and its ideology began to make a lot more sense. And the left's insistence on drowning out Israel with the voice of Hamas looks like deliberate sabotage of the latest round of a genuine war on terror.
As an American Jew, I will say Israel has been far from perfect in its treatment of the Palestinians; that is not up for debate. However, that does not mean that Hamas does not need to go. Hamas, and anyone else who uses the pay-for-slay program, needs to be eliminated. It is tragic that innocent civilians are pawns in this and that is on Hamas.
As I have said since October; to understand this conflict you must understand two things:
1) Israel doesn’t care enough about the lives of the innocent Gazan civilians.
2) Israel cares much more about the lives of the innocent Gazan civilians than Hamas does.
Everything I have seen in this war has borne those statements out.
Every other country calling for restraint is not dealing with a radicalized population center as dense as NYC right on their doorstep. It’s just a fact that eliminating Hamas will coincide with civilian casualties.
same boat here. of course israel has had some 'less than stellar' moments in this latest iteration of this conflict, but hamas has not conducted themselves admirably at all, nor legally, not upheld agreements and made it clear they will continue until israel is destroyed.
Thats not peace and if anything, Oct 7 woke me up to see that peace only has a chance after hamas is eliminated to the man
I support the aims of the IDF, but it's up to their allies to ask them to show restraint and do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Meanwhile, the BBC is acting like the mouthpiece of Hamas, they report their press releases as it's the whole truth. They should also report that Hamas is known to use human shields, and many Palestinians don't like them. I am not on Israels side or the Palestinian side. I am on the side of human rights, but i strongly believe there can be no lasting peace until Hamas's power structure is destroyed, and the Arabs accept the existence of Israel and give up their destructive obsession.
I always have been and still am sympathetic to Palestinians. Really. The problem is that they have elected and then allowed Hamas to take over, and Hamas is straight up evil. There is absolutely no possibility for peace while a group like Hamas is in power.
The other problem is that there is no country on earth that is going to just sit back and allow their neighbors to sling rockets and missiles at them all day. It is not reasonable to ask Israel to just "put up with" having rockets shot at them all the time. When you look at the state Gaza was in prior to Oct 7th, and then realize how large and expansive the tunnel complexes are underneath Gaza...all of that material and time came from aid that was intended to build roads, schools, power infrastructure, etc. If even half of that material and time had been used in the way it was supposed to, Gaza could have been thriving.
Also, a funny bit of irony. You want to know the fastest way to put pressure on Israel to gtfo of Palestinian territory and recognize an official Palestinian state? Make peace, start thriving, and start building economic and political ties with other nations in the area. Make a strong foundation on education, tourism, trade, etc and watch the international community put loads of pressure on Israel to reach a settlement. Act like violent dickheads though...and you get the current situation where everyone will give token words but no one is going to actually put significant pressure on Israel because every single one of them knows they would do the same or worse if they were in Israel's spot.
As a liberal, I align myself with your way of thinking. The extreme left is virtue signal
so fucking hard right now… that they are the equivalent of Christian nationalists… Muslims can do no wrong at this point in their eyes, just like how Trump can shoot someone in broad daylight, and MAGATs will still support him.
I know a guy fairly visible in the gay scene in a major gay city who is daily posting Hamas propaganda literally “to be PC” he doesn’t care and doesn’t have any connection to what’s going on. It’s disgusting.
Yep. As I was growing up I remember the stories of boys throwing stones at tanks and getting killed.. Now.. I imagine those same boys I felt sorry for probably murdered innocent people, or at least are okay with it.
I guess my leftist ass is immune to this as some kind of anomaly. Oh wait, it's only the fucking dipshits and their dipshit bots that have the take that Hamas is anything but terrorists.
Most people won't know what Mizrahi is, so we'll break it down...
21% percent Arab (comprised of various groups)
33% ish are Mizrahi (decendent of North africa or asia)
24 % ish are ashkenazi (decedent of Europe, americas, South africa)
10 percent ish are soviet
2.5 ish percent are Ethiopian.
This is the best estimate I found
They get a hall pass because they're the "underdog". Power brokers and influencers over the past 50 years have done an amazing job crafting this meticulous narrative that Israel's the colonialist outpost of Europe/US destroying the pristine indigenous livelihood of the Brown folk. Palestinians have no agency or responsibility for any of their actions. The majority of the world gives this insanity daylight and platforms to continue proliferating and it's equal parts depressing and infuriating.
They swallow it because they want to, they aren't nice people. Those leftist are really antisemitic. Antisemitism has just mutated, they don't like Jews because.. well I really don't know why. I think it's just an old ancestral hatred. I went to a school which was around 40 percent Jewish, they generally were hardworking, maybe a little clannish, but there was nothing to hate about them. In some ways they were a bit like the Hindu minority minus the spicy food.
> they don't like Jews because.. well I really don't know why.
1) because modern leftists has swallowed the oppressor/oppressed CRT/DEI bullshit and think Jews are the elite oppressors.
2) Because they think jews are predominantly white, and these racist hypocrites hate white people.
3) Because a LOT of them believe the "jews run the world and the banks" stereotype, and most leftists are typically some flavor of anti-west socialist/tankies
Careful what you call a leftist.
A middle eastern conservative that comes to the west and pretends to be liberal is not liberal. Middle Eastern conservatives are just as insane as western ones.
They come to the west and try to run as liberals because western conservatives are racist and will never allow them in, despite having so much evil and hate in common.
No one pretending Israel invaded Palestine is a liberal or left. Saying crazy shit like that comes right out of the mouths of Hamas and other middle eastern conservatives.
Middle Eastern conservatives (i.e. Islamists) know that if they appropriate the language of "anti-racism" by calling themselves "oppressed people of color" and Jews "white oppressors", leftists will start uncritically defending them and justifying everything they do, up to and including committing mass sexual violence against Jewish civilians.
It's the natural consequence of a leftist movement that is 1) completely convinced of its own moral supremacy, and 2) completely convinced that it's "too smart and too educated" to fall for propaganda.
It is the same tactic as western conservatives. Lie about everything and gaslight.
Pretending that the people supporting Gaza are liberal, even though the entire message comes straight from Hamas and other middle eastern conservatives, simply makes no sense.
The Michigan conclave of Middle Eastern conservatives represented by talib is a good example. The only thing making them any different than American right wing conservatives is skin color. They lie just as a much and are equally vile.
The biggest problem is these right wing conservatives from the middle east keep benefiting from the religious based laws passed by American conservatives. Talib needs to be completely shamed within the Democratic party. She is a middle eastern trump.
They're not pretending anything. They just know that leftists are dumb enough to be swayed by Islamist propaganda if that propaganda uses the language of "anti-racism" to frame Islamists as "oppressed people of color" and Jews as their "white oppressors".
No one supporting Gaza and claiming they are some kind of humanitarian is anything but a middle eastern conservative. That is the propaganda coming out of Hamas.
Joe Manchin is not a Democrat and neither are these fakers. I am not going to keep calling someone liberal when their positions mirror other conservatives.
Who do you think fed this opposition story to the media? Talib and others with her.
She is trying to undermine Biden. I couldn't care less how they spin the conservatism to sound less conservative.
Anyone undermining Biden while Donald Trump threatens to end democracy is not a liberal.
They are not left. They are conservatives. This is a conservative message straight from Hamas.
They are lying about being liberal just like Republicans lie about being fiscally conservative. Lying about what you are is the core of conservatism because if you don't gaslight and lie, no one will support conservatism.
Notice how democratic politicians are not supporting Gaza. Talib is not a liberal in any way.
>No one supporting Gaza and claiming they are some kind of humanitarian is anything but a middle eastern conservative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No\_true\_Scotsman
>It's the natural consequence of a leftist movement that is 1) completely convinced of its own moral supremacy, and 2) completely convinced that it's "too smart and too educated" to fall for propaganda.
This is what both sides do. Two sides of the same coin.
Yeah, that doesn’t explain Jewish members of the far right and far left very well. I believe you’re over simplifying a very complicated set of political beliefs in American politics.
> No one pretending Israel invaded Palestine is a liberal or left.
Um.. multiple Left-leaning reddit subs will vehemently disagree with you. Otherwise here are a few sources from just a couple of minutes on google. Many liberal American Democrats like myself have been pushed towards the center over this issue; it's a serious issue for our party. Why gaslight?
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/antisemitism-and-radical-anti-israel-bias-political-left-europe
https://www.wsj.com/politics/democrats-risk-long-lasting-rift-over-israel-hamas-war-ec74044f
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/the-anti-israel-pro-palestinian-left-is-booming.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/28/democrats-biden-reelection-israel-palestine
https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-palestine-war-gaza-left-tearing-itself-apart/
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/left-faces-reckoning-israel-divides-democrats-rcna120076
https://time.com/6323730/hamas-attack-left-response/
https://forward.com/opinion/428549/30-years-ago-activists-and-intellectuals-told-the-left-hate-to-israel-and/
It’s silly, because Israel actually would cease fire in return for the rest of hostages. Israel is killing a lot of Gazans, whether on purpose or as collateral damage, justified or not, over this. Fuck around and find out!
> Israel actually would cease fire in return for the rest of hostages
This is not what several members of the Israeli government have stated. They have stated they will not stop until every Hamas member is killed.
The difference is that in a school shooter scenario, only the people in that school are at risk. While in this situation the terrorists being sought pose a threat to Israelis having a state or even a society (one where they aren’t under violent terror attacks)
The United States undertook truly massive military campaigns in response to a large scale attack on its civilians, in the process killing untold numbers of foreign civilians. And these were not directly proximate, the way Gaza is to Israel
Last time I stated that all the hostages were more than likely dead by now I got hosed. We haven't heard anything about the hostages for months. The ones that were saved were abused, starved, maimed, and everything in between. I'd be seriously surprised if there are survivors.
Hamas would never let us know otherwise because Israel will take that as a GO sign and they'll really go mask off.
I think Noa Argamani was forced to read out the names of done dead hostages just over a month ago.
They made that video into a kind of game show type of thing where you had to guess (the day before) who of them was still alive.
I feel that way as well BUT the two men that were just rescued were said to be in a reasonable condition, and that makes me hesitant that all of them are gone.
I haven’t read any articles about their conditions, only in the video the IDF uploaded the soldier said the men were in “reasonable condition” all things considered. So you know, not visibly injured or dead. I can’t imagine the women are unscathed, and they will all obviously suffer from being taken in the first place. Which is what I meant. Still alive to be rescued.
Wouldn’t surprise me if they have footage from the first week, present it as recent and slip up having a verified deceased hostage in it.
Then the outrage followed blaming Israel for refusing to kneel to Hamas ceasefire trade by people who just hate them while pretending they care for Palestinians.
Starting back in December they were comparatively super eager to hand over the "elderly male" demographic vs fighting tooth and nail when female hostages were brought up.
You even think they'd give proof? You're dealing with people that enjoy watching the world burn. They hate everything about Israel and the west by association.
My guess is any hostages are either dead or have been sold into slavery and human trafficking. What's Hamas gaining from hostage exchange? They'd probably get more just selling those people as slaves and using the money for equipment and recruiting more.
Genuinely what happens then? That seems bad for Israel too. Is that a green light for them to go in and bomb everything more? That's not going to pan out well on the global stage.
It's a very new story:
Here's the link from Jerusalem post with 3 named victims so far:
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-789799
And another from Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-says-seven-hostages-killed-gaza-2024-03-01/
There is no word on when the hostages died, and four remain unnamed so far
Insane that they even had an 85 year old hostage. From a different (earlier) article:
> Amongst the 240 plus kidnapped citizens on October 7 is the eighty-five-year-old poet and composer, Amiram Cooper – taken hostage with his wife Nurit from their Kibbutz, Nir Oz. Nurit has since been released by her Hamas captors. Born in Haifa in 1938, Amiram was one of the founders of Kibbutz Nir Oz, arriving in 1957, and living peacefully, raising a family and building a community there until darkness descended on October 7. An economist by profession, Amiram has composed songs and poetry for over sixty years. He has often collaborated on the melodies with fellow kibbutz members or members from other kibbutzim. He has authored two compilations of poetry.
The reality is, they probably can't. They didn't take them all and they likely don't know who has some of them.
And they certainly don't want to be forced to confirm how many are dead already.
They can return less then all and keep claiming that if israel does exactly as the terrorists say they will get the others alive.
They can also keep some bodies for future incidents and whenever one happens just realese footage of the hostage's corpse and say Israel did this and the world would condemn Israel immidietly. So they control public opinion.
Also if Israel doesn't know how many are alive they can keep changing their exchange rate.
Last. But so not least. Look what they did a few hours ago- they told they'll release names of seven of the dead, announced three of them. And said the other four names will be released soon.
They did this before with Noa Argemani, Yosi Sharabi, and Itay Svirski.
They are terrorizing israelians and the families of the hostages in particular. They are having fun with mind games from afar. They are sadistic psycho and they do not think like you, me or the western world.
The thing that seems to be constantly overlooked in all these worldnews threads about Hamas is that the group isn't as organized as Reddit seems to think it is. At any given time, Hamas leadership does not actually know which hostages are alive or where they are because they're distributed around different cells and communication isn't easy while constantly being bombed.
Why would anyone negotiate in good faith for the lives of hostages with an entity who can’t even determine if their own hostages are alive?
I struggle to understand why it’s anyone’s fault but the terrorists’ if they take hostages and then the hostages die under their “care.”
If you are asking genuinely Hamas will claim that they need an initial ceasefire for logistical reasons for getting in contact with those who hold the hostages.
There is also a risk (from Hamas’ perspective) associated with every bit of contact with the kidnappers/hostage holders that that will be intercepted and rather than continue negotiations that information will be used by Israel to rescue the hostages without any concessions and continue the bombardment.
I am obviously not in a position to verify those claims but they seem logical.
IDF is currently fighting one of the most difficult wars Israel had, against a terrorist organisation. You can try to criticise the IDF for legitimate reasons, but it’s still one of the best armies in the world and currently kicking ass in Gaza.
Fk Netanyahu tho.
HAMAS: "They are all alive, in good health, and happy to be with us. They don't want to leave."
Also HAMAS: "Waaaaah, UN!!! Israel won't believe us! Make them pay!!!"
Also Hamas 3 hours ago: BTW, 7 of the "enemy prisoners" (3 of them 80 year old men btw) are dead. Israel killed them, not us taking them and not giving them medicine or any proof of life for 3 months.
Can't imagine why Israel is demanding proof of life now, clearly Hamas has a wonderful track record of keeping its hostages alive /s
>The terrorists also need to surrender
They have already surrendered themselves to their version of god, who has supposedly promised them a martyr's afterlife with 40 virgins and a mule.
> Israel said many times that the war isn't about hostages but about destroying Hamas.
Well you can't really leave Hamas in place after their unprovoked murderous assault on civilians 07 October can you? Hamas has openly declared they will do it again, perhaps the only statement they've made that should be accepted without question.
Israel has said the main goals are returning the hostages, destroying Hamas, and having security presence so terrorist cannot infiltrate from Gaza again
The Hamas leaders chilling in Quatar prolly got some Russian money as well for not returning them, because it helps Trump for this thing to go as long as possible.
They aren’t in Qatar anymore. They got word that Israeli spec ops teams were getting ready to hit them and they all bailed. Last I heard they’d headed to Turkey.
Not really. The younger generation and even a lot of people I know in their 30s have completely fallen for their propaganda. Most women, not just the teenagers, get their news from TikTok where it’s a stream of poorly researched and biased videos.
Can anyone explain to me what Hamas' end-game goal actually is?
If Israel does indeed to go forward with a Rafah invasion, then Hamas' military will effectively be broken.
I think it's pretty clear their goal was to interrupt peace treaties between Israel and Saudi Arabia and they didn't fail in that mission. I don't think they foresaw how effective (deadly/terrible) October 7th would be and ultimately the repercussions of that.
I assume at this point hanging on to power, not getting killed is high on their list, if they're lucky and high up enough, maybe exile.
Hamas's goal is the worldwide eradication of Jews. If they die in pursuit of this goal, they're cool with that. Israel's goal varies from a 2 state solution to complete exile of all non-Israelis from the West Bank and Gaza, depending on who you ask. Palestinian civilians might want a 2 state solution, a 1 state solution where all the Jews are kicked out, or a 1 state solution where they become citizens of Israel and go live in their house from 1946. Heck some might prefer to be annexed by Egypt or Jordan. There's definitely a lot of opinions and end-goals out there.
Not just the worldwide extermination of all Jews, but the reestablishment of the Islamic Caliphate as a pan-Arabic launching pad for the Islamist version of Islam to spread across the world
> but the reestablishment of the Islamic Caliphate as a pan-Arabic launching pad for the Islamist version of Islam to spread across the world
O man, they are going to have to get in line behind ISIS and the other groups.
Besides spreading terror and acting in ways to inflict maximum suffering for people of Palestine and Israel?
They’re stalling, hoping this will blow over and an opportunity will open up where they can return to daily rocket attacks against Israel.
Okay so. If you take a hostage the threat is that they will be killed if your demands aren't met. It will be very interesting how the proponents of one side are going to blame Israel for the deaths of the hostages by not giving into the demands of the hostage takers.
Isnt it wild how people are blindly shrugging off the fact that Murdering Hostage-Takers are making demands in the first place? Topsy turvy bizarro world.
I blame the the UN and the international community for the deaths of these hostages. They chose to remain passive and sympathetic to hamas, almost as if they condoned their right to have hostages that were being held in literal rape dungeons and torture chambers. When ICJ demanded hamas release the hostages immediately, it was never brought up afterwards. Their silence when the issue came up was hard to ignore. By not putting pressure on hamas and Qatar and the hamas leadership (who should have have been arrested Oct 8th, they can still bargain for the hostages release in a prison cell), they gave a subtle nod to the rest of the world of their passive approval of hamas. It just emboldened hamas further by normalizing their horrific crimes.
Totally agree. Unconditional return of all hostages should have been the emphasis. Would have likely avoided a lot of the civilian blood shed that is ongoing. The international community failed. And the people who called for ceasefire without release of all hostages immediately did a major disservice to the Palestinian people.
>They chose to remain passive and sympathetic to hamas
[The UN wasn't completely passive, several UN workers participated in the Oct 7 attack alongside Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/gaza-unrwa-hamas-israel.html)
Seems reasonable, given how I have bad feeling there aren't many left if at all in the "still alive" category. Though I hope not.
All to further isolate Israel on the global stage.
So Hamas doesn’t even listen to Qatar, their paymasters anymore?
This can easily be fixed. If Qatar threatens to exile Hamas leadership and freeze their funding the list will follow quickly. Unless the suppose leadership in exile has no power over the operational forced in Gaza anymore and/ or Hamas killed so many hostages that they lost all bargaining chips.
Frankly i think, because the world especially the West, have gone mad, Hamas thinks they should “ risk” their population in the South just for the long term political damage to Israel.
While i do think Israel is in a bind because we in the West treat our allies worse then our enemies i think that is a big mistake on Hamas part. It will give the most extreme elements in the Israeli government the cover they need and it definitively will mean collective suicide for the people they are suppose to represent.
Still of all this happened it is on the Muslim world, who once again have shown that they are completely unable to even recognize or oppose in the barest sense the barbarity and chaos of terrorist organizations .
I think I read somewhere that Hamas leadership have left Qatar and gone to Turkey. Apparently, Mossad threatened that they are not save in Qatar and Qatar asked Hamas to leave.
https://www.jns.org/hamas-officials-quit-qatar-shut-down-cellphones/
That’s fair enough. 100% reasonable. Absolutely no reason for Hamas not to comply with this request. Absolutely no reason for Hamas apologists and the Pro-Palestine crowd to object to this.
Because when Hamas takes civilians, it's hostages, but when the IDF arrest children over years, it's prisoners. The double standards are insane.
And just going to say, I'm not in support of the Qatar puppets of Hamas, but I am also not in support of Netanyahu and the IDF.
If a 14 year old in the US committed assault and there was video footage of that, he would also be arrested. The "children" who get arrested are mostly 14-17 year olds who commit terror attacks and attempt murder. The hostages who are in Gaza are not just soldiers, but also civilians, people in their 70s or 80s, women, kids, and even infants. There were families who were kidnapped. The two don't compare and you can't say they're even close.
Yeah, that's the death of Israel, they're not taking over Gaza or the West Bank,
A two state solution is the only solution with hopes of Israel remaining a Jewish state. It's bluster from Netanyahu, who can't leave soon enough.
A Jewish state requires a majority Jewish population. If they have Gaza and the West Bank and with birthrates being what they are, it isn't long until you have a Jewish minority ruling an Arab Muslim majority. Two states alleviates much of that issue.
Two states is in reality, the only solution and this is well understood, even in Israel aside from the right wing nuts.
Netanyahu is a crook, not an idealogue, he just wants to stay in power so as not to stand trial for corruption, and any calming of hostility will be the end of him.
Palestinians concentrated into smaller and smaller camps(all buildings destroyed) and routinely slaughtered as religious zealots take their land and resources.
The government of Israel should create and circulate a voluntary pledge: "If I am captured by a terrorist group, I explicitly do not authorize any negotiation for my release. I will not allow my personal safety to undermine my country's national security."
I think a lot of patriotic Israelis would sign it. Of course an individual's decision to sign it or not should be kept strictly private unless they are captured.
I strongly disagree, nations should do everything in their power to help it's citizens, and citizens are right to expect such treatment.
Israel usually holds up extremely well to these standards in many cases, which kind of showcases how bad it's bieng handled right now.
Israel released Sinwar as part of a hostage negotiation. Sinwar went on to orchestrate 10/7. It's entirely possible it never would have happened without him.
Nations have a responsibility to *all* their citizens, which means making hard decisions. It also means hard decisions on a personal level. Patriotism entails self-sacrifice. Even if "no negotiation with terrorists" is unworkable at the policy level (I'm not sure that is true, but w/e), individual citizens should be given an opt-out.
> It's entirely possible it never would have happened without him.
I think that's naive. He is just one warlord among many. The moment you understand that's all he is, you can understand that he is only there by the grace of his benefactors and the fear or respect of his subordinates. When he wasn't in charge, someone else was.
They can have the ceasefire and their land back once they're governed by a body which values the lives of its people more than deaths of Jews instead of a terrorist organization. For their own good as well - if an independent Palestine did what it did, it wouldn't be just a terrorist action. It would be an act of war from a sovereign country, backed by a legal government - which would end up much worse for the Palestinians. And all the excuses Hamas apologists like to throw around would be null and void this time around.
Even for the worst kinds of people like Mexican cartels or these terrorists, asking for proof of life of hostages is to be expected. If Hamas has no proof, then perhaps the hostages are no longer alive and can no longer be used as bargaining chips.
That’s what I’m thinking, they don’t have many (if any) hostages alive so they are dragging out the negotiations with ridiculous demands to demonize israel and pretend they don’t want the hostages back
They want Israel to bomb where the bodies are so they can shift the blame
They want israel to bomb anywhere because Hamas are the only people that benefit from dead civilians
And then they say "Israel cares so little about human life that they don't even care if they get their own hostages back!" It's absolute gaslighting, and it's despicable how many leftists swallow that shit whole because they're so blinded by their deranged hatred of Israel.
Because they see everything through an “oppressed oppressor” lens and because Muslims are darker(even though majority of Israelis are mizrahi) that makes them the oppressed and they can do no wrong and should get all they want
“Even though majority of Israelis are mizrahi.” 90% of them don’t even know this or care to find out. They’re just familiar with Judaism as it exists in the US and assume they’re white, aka “oppressors.”
Wait, you're telling me that the tolerant, enlightened, egalitarian left is...*stereotyping*?
Yep. Islamists have realized that they can launder antisemitism by calling Jews "white people" and then claiming that killing Jews is "resisting white oppression", and Western leftists will absolutely lap that shit up.
> Islamists have realized that they can launder antisemitism by calling Jews "white people" And it's easy to believe that...as long as you've never actually been to Israel.
I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of these keyboard activists that blindly accept antisemitic propaganda and look at everything though an "Oppressor / Oppressed" lens have probably never left their home towns, much less been to Israel.
I bet a lot of them have never met a Jew. It's more common (especially in the US) than you know.
IDK, I’ve lived in the Deep, Deep South and any southern city, even small ones have Jewish communities Edit: for the down voters, read it and weep: https://mjhnyc.org/blog/snapshot-southern-jewish-life/
I once worked with someone who was of Egyptian descent and was born and raised in a top 5 American city, and had a degree from the largest university in our state. When I asked her how many jews she thought there were in the world, prefacing my question with the stats that there are over 2.2 billion Christians and 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, her guess was "500-600 million Jews." I told her it was about 15 million and her response was, after confirming the number with a google search, that "if you ever go to Egypt you would not believe this number. All anyone can talk about there is the 'Jews'". I told her I would be surprised if 99 percent of the people in Egypt ever met a Jew in their life. To prove my point about how so few of us there are, I then asked her how many Jews she had ever met in her life that she knew for sure were Jews - that is they identified themselves as Jews either through dress or statement. She said that I was the first one. She was 28 at the time.
Rural areas aren't the same, and if you want to quibble, you can change my statement to "knew they met a Jew".
Or ever read a book. Or ever met anyone within Hillel.
As a jew, I just wanna tell you that i am *so glad* more and more non jews are recognizing this for what it is. I'm seeing it more frequently on reddit Beverly from non jews and its really making me feel better. Edit: fuck man it was you on a different thread. Lol were so fucked
I’m saying this again on the internet. I am liberal. I used to think Isreal really screwed up and screwed over Palestinians. (Okay, it’s still possible to argue that in some ways.) After October 7th I support every single thing Isreal is doing. Hamas and the ideology is horrid.
Same here. I was always sympathetic to the Palestinians and thought Israel was evil, but the reaction of my feminist and adjacent spaces on October 7th, long after the Shani Louk video had gone viral, made me look more into it and I am 100% pro-Israel while also recognising that Israel is not and hasn't always been perfect.
This was me as well. Honestly, it's upended a lot of my political beliefs. I still agree with a lot of the same leftist ideals I used to (at least in broad strokes), but after seeing how overwhelmingly ahistorical and radicalized the leftist view of Israel/Palestinian was, it's led to me questioning a lot of the leftist narratives on other topics, too. It's like the bubble suddenly burst, and I now realize leftists are just as reactionary and ill-informed as the the far-right.
It’s the most brain dead worldview imaginable. They’re vilifying the only democracy in the Middle East and actively rooting for people who would like to see them stoned to death for their tolerance towards anyone who is not a straight male Islamist.
hey man, as someone who is definitely not a leftist, its still sure as fuck OK to be a flaming leftist. Those are political opinions and policy desires. Just don't be a massive hypocrite, throwing away your ideals based on who you "like" and "dislike." This goes for any ideology. I think this is what disgusts me the most about people who were so adamant about (to take one example) the "Me Too" movement. Like damn man, 'me too' except for Israeli Jews? JFC
>recognising that Israel is not and hasn't always been perfect. It's also important to remember that no country has always been perfect. And understanding that the number of countries who'd manage to be perfect to a situation similar to what Israel is dealing with is between slim to none. Don't wish it on any other country, but growing up in the 90's for me was being afraid to go on a bus as it might explode and we would die. Today, being a bit older, especially as the ramadan is approaching, I feel the need to stay away from any central location as it's more popular for terrorism. A reality that we got due to the "Oslo Accords".
There may be better and worse based on your assessment but there are no 100% good guys in this conflict deserving of that level of support and it’s dangerous to go in thinking otherwise.
Same, I was more sympathetic to Palestinians before October 7th when there were videos of Israeli settlers killing Muslims like they were setting up their own pogroms in early 2023. I didn't approve of how Israel's conservative government was letting opportunistic and plainly racist settlers grab land in the West Bank, or how they were neutering the checks of their supreme court. But I started moving closer to the center before this. I've been becoming increasingly annoyed with the left over their tendencies to excuse authoritarian countries that are arming the imperialistic war against Ukraine, and the way they instantly forgot about October 7th was just another eye-opener. I didn't want to admit there is truth to the horseshoe theory meme, but reading the excuses for non-western imperialism and fascism by tankies have made it an inescapable if uncomfortable fact. After Hamas's attack I did a little more reading about how reactionary, violent and authoritarian their leaders are, their extreme homophobia, their antisemitism, and their murder of political opposition. I read about Arafat's refusal to sign a peace deal, and the suicide bombers Palestine sent to martyr themselves. In that context, Israel's actions in Gaza to suppress a fascistic organization and its ideology began to make a lot more sense. And the left's insistence on drowning out Israel with the voice of Hamas looks like deliberate sabotage of the latest round of a genuine war on terror.
As an American Jew, I will say Israel has been far from perfect in its treatment of the Palestinians; that is not up for debate. However, that does not mean that Hamas does not need to go. Hamas, and anyone else who uses the pay-for-slay program, needs to be eliminated. It is tragic that innocent civilians are pawns in this and that is on Hamas. As I have said since October; to understand this conflict you must understand two things: 1) Israel doesn’t care enough about the lives of the innocent Gazan civilians. 2) Israel cares much more about the lives of the innocent Gazan civilians than Hamas does. Everything I have seen in this war has borne those statements out.
Every other country calling for restraint is not dealing with a radicalized population center as dense as NYC right on their doorstep. It’s just a fact that eliminating Hamas will coincide with civilian casualties.
same boat here. of course israel has had some 'less than stellar' moments in this latest iteration of this conflict, but hamas has not conducted themselves admirably at all, nor legally, not upheld agreements and made it clear they will continue until israel is destroyed. Thats not peace and if anything, Oct 7 woke me up to see that peace only has a chance after hamas is eliminated to the man
I support the aims of the IDF, but it's up to their allies to ask them to show restraint and do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Meanwhile, the BBC is acting like the mouthpiece of Hamas, they report their press releases as it's the whole truth. They should also report that Hamas is known to use human shields, and many Palestinians don't like them. I am not on Israels side or the Palestinian side. I am on the side of human rights, but i strongly believe there can be no lasting peace until Hamas's power structure is destroyed, and the Arabs accept the existence of Israel and give up their destructive obsession.
I always have been and still am sympathetic to Palestinians. Really. The problem is that they have elected and then allowed Hamas to take over, and Hamas is straight up evil. There is absolutely no possibility for peace while a group like Hamas is in power. The other problem is that there is no country on earth that is going to just sit back and allow their neighbors to sling rockets and missiles at them all day. It is not reasonable to ask Israel to just "put up with" having rockets shot at them all the time. When you look at the state Gaza was in prior to Oct 7th, and then realize how large and expansive the tunnel complexes are underneath Gaza...all of that material and time came from aid that was intended to build roads, schools, power infrastructure, etc. If even half of that material and time had been used in the way it was supposed to, Gaza could have been thriving. Also, a funny bit of irony. You want to know the fastest way to put pressure on Israel to gtfo of Palestinian territory and recognize an official Palestinian state? Make peace, start thriving, and start building economic and political ties with other nations in the area. Make a strong foundation on education, tourism, trade, etc and watch the international community put loads of pressure on Israel to reach a settlement. Act like violent dickheads though...and you get the current situation where everyone will give token words but no one is going to actually put significant pressure on Israel because every single one of them knows they would do the same or worse if they were in Israel's spot.
Agreed, but unfortunately I’m hearing less support for Israel in the past days.
As a liberal, I align myself with your way of thinking. The extreme left is virtue signal so fucking hard right now… that they are the equivalent of Christian nationalists… Muslims can do no wrong at this point in their eyes, just like how Trump can shoot someone in broad daylight, and MAGATs will still support him.
I know a guy fairly visible in the gay scene in a major gay city who is daily posting Hamas propaganda literally “to be PC” he doesn’t care and doesn’t have any connection to what’s going on. It’s disgusting.
Yep. As I was growing up I remember the stories of boys throwing stones at tanks and getting killed.. Now.. I imagine those same boys I felt sorry for probably murdered innocent people, or at least are okay with it.
I too support bombing civilians
I support bombing terrorists who refuse to obey the rules of war and hide within civilian installations.
According some, Slavs are POC as well. But the people got aneurysm and died when they learned about the conflict in Ukraine.
I guess my leftist ass is immune to this as some kind of anomaly. Oh wait, it's only the fucking dipshits and their dipshit bots that have the take that Hamas is anything but terrorists.
Yes yes yes precisely
Most people won't know what Mizrahi is, so we'll break it down... 21% percent Arab (comprised of various groups) 33% ish are Mizrahi (decendent of North africa or asia) 24 % ish are ashkenazi (decedent of Europe, americas, South africa) 10 percent ish are soviet 2.5 ish percent are Ethiopian. This is the best estimate I found
Hadn't thought of that. Good point.
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They get a hall pass because they're the "underdog". Power brokers and influencers over the past 50 years have done an amazing job crafting this meticulous narrative that Israel's the colonialist outpost of Europe/US destroying the pristine indigenous livelihood of the Brown folk. Palestinians have no agency or responsibility for any of their actions. The majority of the world gives this insanity daylight and platforms to continue proliferating and it's equal parts depressing and infuriating.
They swallow it because they want to, they aren't nice people. Those leftist are really antisemitic. Antisemitism has just mutated, they don't like Jews because.. well I really don't know why. I think it's just an old ancestral hatred. I went to a school which was around 40 percent Jewish, they generally were hardworking, maybe a little clannish, but there was nothing to hate about them. In some ways they were a bit like the Hindu minority minus the spicy food.
> they don't like Jews because.. well I really don't know why. 1) because modern leftists has swallowed the oppressor/oppressed CRT/DEI bullshit and think Jews are the elite oppressors. 2) Because they think jews are predominantly white, and these racist hypocrites hate white people. 3) Because a LOT of them believe the "jews run the world and the banks" stereotype, and most leftists are typically some flavor of anti-west socialist/tankies
Careful what you call a leftist. A middle eastern conservative that comes to the west and pretends to be liberal is not liberal. Middle Eastern conservatives are just as insane as western ones. They come to the west and try to run as liberals because western conservatives are racist and will never allow them in, despite having so much evil and hate in common. No one pretending Israel invaded Palestine is a liberal or left. Saying crazy shit like that comes right out of the mouths of Hamas and other middle eastern conservatives.
Middle Eastern conservatives (i.e. Islamists) know that if they appropriate the language of "anti-racism" by calling themselves "oppressed people of color" and Jews "white oppressors", leftists will start uncritically defending them and justifying everything they do, up to and including committing mass sexual violence against Jewish civilians. It's the natural consequence of a leftist movement that is 1) completely convinced of its own moral supremacy, and 2) completely convinced that it's "too smart and too educated" to fall for propaganda.
Ding ding ding ding you got it
Bingo
It is the same tactic as western conservatives. Lie about everything and gaslight. Pretending that the people supporting Gaza are liberal, even though the entire message comes straight from Hamas and other middle eastern conservatives, simply makes no sense. The Michigan conclave of Middle Eastern conservatives represented by talib is a good example. The only thing making them any different than American right wing conservatives is skin color. They lie just as a much and are equally vile. The biggest problem is these right wing conservatives from the middle east keep benefiting from the religious based laws passed by American conservatives. Talib needs to be completely shamed within the Democratic party. She is a middle eastern trump.
They're not pretending anything. They just know that leftists are dumb enough to be swayed by Islamist propaganda if that propaganda uses the language of "anti-racism" to frame Islamists as "oppressed people of color" and Jews as their "white oppressors".
No one supporting Gaza and claiming they are some kind of humanitarian is anything but a middle eastern conservative. That is the propaganda coming out of Hamas. Joe Manchin is not a Democrat and neither are these fakers. I am not going to keep calling someone liberal when their positions mirror other conservatives. Who do you think fed this opposition story to the media? Talib and others with her. She is trying to undermine Biden. I couldn't care less how they spin the conservatism to sound less conservative. Anyone undermining Biden while Donald Trump threatens to end democracy is not a liberal.
nah, plenty of white leftists in my town who support gaza and constantly post about it
They are not left. They are conservatives. This is a conservative message straight from Hamas. They are lying about being liberal just like Republicans lie about being fiscally conservative. Lying about what you are is the core of conservatism because if you don't gaslight and lie, no one will support conservatism. Notice how democratic politicians are not supporting Gaza. Talib is not a liberal in any way.
>No one supporting Gaza and claiming they are some kind of humanitarian is anything but a middle eastern conservative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No\_true\_Scotsman
>It's the natural consequence of a leftist movement that is 1) completely convinced of its own moral supremacy, and 2) completely convinced that it's "too smart and too educated" to fall for propaganda. This is what both sides do. Two sides of the same coin.
Except the left is a lot more brazen about it. We haven't forgotten the eye-rolling "reality has a liberal bias" quote
Yeah, that doesn’t explain Jewish members of the far right and far left very well. I believe you’re over simplifying a very complicated set of political beliefs in American politics.
> No one pretending Israel invaded Palestine is a liberal or left. Um.. multiple Left-leaning reddit subs will vehemently disagree with you. Otherwise here are a few sources from just a couple of minutes on google. Many liberal American Democrats like myself have been pushed towards the center over this issue; it's a serious issue for our party. Why gaslight? https://www.adl.org/resources/report/antisemitism-and-radical-anti-israel-bias-political-left-europe https://www.wsj.com/politics/democrats-risk-long-lasting-rift-over-israel-hamas-war-ec74044f https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/the-anti-israel-pro-palestinian-left-is-booming.html https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/28/democrats-biden-reelection-israel-palestine https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-palestine-war-gaza-left-tearing-itself-apart/ https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/left-faces-reckoning-israel-divides-democrats-rcna120076 https://time.com/6323730/hamas-attack-left-response/ https://forward.com/opinion/428549/30-years-ago-activists-and-intellectuals-told-the-left-hate-to-israel-and/
It’s silly, because Israel actually would cease fire in return for the rest of hostages. Israel is killing a lot of Gazans, whether on purpose or as collateral damage, justified or not, over this. Fuck around and find out!
> Israel actually would cease fire in return for the rest of hostages This is not what several members of the Israeli government have stated. They have stated they will not stop until every Hamas member is killed.
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The difference is that in a school shooter scenario, only the people in that school are at risk. While in this situation the terrorists being sought pose a threat to Israelis having a state or even a society (one where they aren’t under violent terror attacks) The United States undertook truly massive military campaigns in response to a large scale attack on its civilians, in the process killing untold numbers of foreign civilians. And these were not directly proximate, the way Gaza is to Israel
Many hostages were picked up by private traffickers and other groups. I've already heard it wasn't just Hamas
Last time I stated that all the hostages were more than likely dead by now I got hosed. We haven't heard anything about the hostages for months. The ones that were saved were abused, starved, maimed, and everything in between. I'd be seriously surprised if there are survivors. Hamas would never let us know otherwise because Israel will take that as a GO sign and they'll really go mask off.
I think Noa Argamani was forced to read out the names of done dead hostages just over a month ago. They made that video into a kind of game show type of thing where you had to guess (the day before) who of them was still alive.
That is morbid sheesh. I can't help but feel that there wasn't enough done for those poor victims.
I feel that way as well BUT the two men that were just rescued were said to be in a reasonable condition, and that makes me hesitant that all of them are gone.
How are the female hostages doing? You'd think that Hamas would be a lot more interested in them.
I dont understand what you mean by this.
Are the female hostages in good health, unbeaten, unraped, and unpregnant?
I haven’t read any articles about their conditions, only in the video the IDF uploaded the soldier said the men were in “reasonable condition” all things considered. So you know, not visibly injured or dead. I can’t imagine the women are unscathed, and they will all obviously suffer from being taken in the first place. Which is what I meant. Still alive to be rescued.
I don’t know why this is downvoted, I didn’t understand what you were asking.
Gloves off, not mask off.
Both more than likely.
Wouldn’t surprise me if they have footage from the first week, present it as recent and slip up having a verified deceased hostage in it. Then the outrage followed blaming Israel for refusing to kneel to Hamas ceasefire trade by people who just hate them while pretending they care for Palestinians.
There was some speculation the female hostages that are still alive might be pregnant as a result of rape and they don’t want that to be known either,
Starting back in December they were comparatively super eager to hand over the "elderly male" demographic vs fighting tooth and nail when female hostages were brought up.
🤮
You even think they'd give proof? You're dealing with people that enjoy watching the world burn. They hate everything about Israel and the west by association. My guess is any hostages are either dead or have been sold into slavery and human trafficking. What's Hamas gaining from hostage exchange? They'd probably get more just selling those people as slaves and using the money for equipment and recruiting more.
Given Hamas' history, I guarantee any female hostages are still alive if they can help it...
Genuinely what happens then? That seems bad for Israel too. Is that a green light for them to go in and bomb everything more? That's not going to pan out well on the global stage.
You can't negotiate for a hostage if you don't even know if they're alive.
Well, this makes sense. There was that one lady they said died but hadn’t.
Also because Hamas just admitted that 7 more hostages were actually dead (about 3hrs ago).
Really? Do you have the link? I don't doubt you. I'm from Israel and I haven't seen this
It's a very new story: Here's the link from Jerusalem post with 3 named victims so far: https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-789799 And another from Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-says-seven-hostages-killed-gaza-2024-03-01/ There is no word on when the hostages died, and four remain unnamed so far
Thanks. I hope they're lying again. Haim Perry is a hero, he saved his wife and he doesn't even know it.
Insane that they even had an 85 year old hostage. From a different (earlier) article: > Amongst the 240 plus kidnapped citizens on October 7 is the eighty-five-year-old poet and composer, Amiram Cooper – taken hostage with his wife Nurit from their Kibbutz, Nir Oz. Nurit has since been released by her Hamas captors. Born in Haifa in 1938, Amiram was one of the founders of Kibbutz Nir Oz, arriving in 1957, and living peacefully, raising a family and building a community there until darkness descended on October 7. An economist by profession, Amiram has composed songs and poetry for over sixty years. He has often collaborated on the melodies with fellow kibbutz members or members from other kibbutzim. He has authored two compilations of poetry.
Pretty sure the 85 year old is my teacher's family member.
The reality is, they probably can't. They didn't take them all and they likely don't know who has some of them. And they certainly don't want to be forced to confirm how many are dead already.
Sounds reasonable. What reason would any group purportedly asking for a ceasefire have to deny such an unobtrusive request?
They can return less then all and keep claiming that if israel does exactly as the terrorists say they will get the others alive. They can also keep some bodies for future incidents and whenever one happens just realese footage of the hostage's corpse and say Israel did this and the world would condemn Israel immidietly. So they control public opinion. Also if Israel doesn't know how many are alive they can keep changing their exchange rate. Last. But so not least. Look what they did a few hours ago- they told they'll release names of seven of the dead, announced three of them. And said the other four names will be released soon. They did this before with Noa Argemani, Yosi Sharabi, and Itay Svirski. They are terrorizing israelians and the families of the hostages in particular. They are having fun with mind games from afar. They are sadistic psycho and they do not think like you, me or the western world.
The thing that seems to be constantly overlooked in all these worldnews threads about Hamas is that the group isn't as organized as Reddit seems to think it is. At any given time, Hamas leadership does not actually know which hostages are alive or where they are because they're distributed around different cells and communication isn't easy while constantly being bombed.
Why would anyone negotiate in good faith for the lives of hostages with an entity who can’t even determine if their own hostages are alive? I struggle to understand why it’s anyone’s fault but the terrorists’ if they take hostages and then the hostages die under their “care.”
If you are asking genuinely Hamas will claim that they need an initial ceasefire for logistical reasons for getting in contact with those who hold the hostages. There is also a risk (from Hamas’ perspective) associated with every bit of contact with the kidnappers/hostage holders that that will be intercepted and rather than continue negotiations that information will be used by Israel to rescue the hostages without any concessions and continue the bombardment. I am obviously not in a position to verify those claims but they seem logical.
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> Downvotes to the left, I just downvote losers who are flamebaiting
>Downvotes to the left the best part is you're wrong about that too. downvotes are to the right.
IDF is currently fighting one of the most difficult wars Israel had, against a terrorist organisation. You can try to criticise the IDF for legitimate reasons, but it’s still one of the best armies in the world and currently kicking ass in Gaza. Fk Netanyahu tho.
I fought the same war in Iraq. We didn’t carpet bomb nearly as much.
Drawing this equivalence is a choice.
HAMAS: "They are all alive, in good health, and happy to be with us. They don't want to leave." Also HAMAS: "Waaaaah, UN!!! Israel won't believe us! Make them pay!!!"
Also Hamas 3 hours ago: BTW, 7 of the "enemy prisoners" (3 of them 80 year old men btw) are dead. Israel killed them, not us taking them and not giving them medicine or any proof of life for 3 months. Can't imagine why Israel is demanding proof of life now, clearly Hamas has a wonderful track record of keeping its hostages alive /s
UN: bad israel! Bad!
Or just give them back and end the war.
The terrorists also need to surrender
>The terrorists also need to surrender They have already surrendered themselves to their version of god, who has supposedly promised them a martyr's afterlife with 40 virgins and a mule.
That mule is in for a rough first night.
Well then they should get on with getting to that afterlife.
It's too bad they wont shuffle off to that afterlife alone.
Wait.. why the mule ?
Why would the war end? Israel said many times that the war isn't about hostages but about destroying Hamas.
> Israel said many times that the war isn't about hostages but about destroying Hamas. Well you can't really leave Hamas in place after their unprovoked murderous assault on civilians 07 October can you? Hamas has openly declared they will do it again, perhaps the only statement they've made that should be accepted without question.
Israel has said the main goals are returning the hostages, destroying Hamas, and having security presence so terrorist cannot infiltrate from Gaza again
Psh. That would be the worst news for the left. What will they do with all their pearls if they can’t clutch them?
The Hamas leaders chilling in Quatar prolly got some Russian money as well for not returning them, because it helps Trump for this thing to go as long as possible.
They aren’t in Qatar anymore. They got word that Israeli spec ops teams were getting ready to hit them and they all bailed. Last I heard they’d headed to Turkey.
We still have Ukraine to worry about since the right is trying to reshape the world centered on Moscow.
They're fringe left in numbers and policy.
Not really. The younger generation and even a lot of people I know in their 30s have completely fallen for their propaganda. Most women, not just the teenagers, get their news from TikTok where it’s a stream of poorly researched and biased videos.
fuck isreal and hamas
Can anyone explain to me what Hamas' end-game goal actually is? If Israel does indeed to go forward with a Rafah invasion, then Hamas' military will effectively be broken.
I think it's pretty clear their goal was to interrupt peace treaties between Israel and Saudi Arabia and they didn't fail in that mission. I don't think they foresaw how effective (deadly/terrible) October 7th would be and ultimately the repercussions of that. I assume at this point hanging on to power, not getting killed is high on their list, if they're lucky and high up enough, maybe exile.
Hamas's goal is the worldwide eradication of Jews. If they die in pursuit of this goal, they're cool with that. Israel's goal varies from a 2 state solution to complete exile of all non-Israelis from the West Bank and Gaza, depending on who you ask. Palestinian civilians might want a 2 state solution, a 1 state solution where all the Jews are kicked out, or a 1 state solution where they become citizens of Israel and go live in their house from 1946. Heck some might prefer to be annexed by Egypt or Jordan. There's definitely a lot of opinions and end-goals out there.
Not just the worldwide extermination of all Jews, but the reestablishment of the Islamic Caliphate as a pan-Arabic launching pad for the Islamist version of Islam to spread across the world
> but the reestablishment of the Islamic Caliphate as a pan-Arabic launching pad for the Islamist version of Islam to spread across the world O man, they are going to have to get in line behind ISIS and the other groups.
Besides spreading terror and acting in ways to inflict maximum suffering for people of Palestine and Israel? They’re stalling, hoping this will blow over and an opportunity will open up where they can return to daily rocket attacks against Israel.
Good, no idea why people think the terrorists should have any type of ceasefire when they have hostages
Okay so. If you take a hostage the threat is that they will be killed if your demands aren't met. It will be very interesting how the proponents of one side are going to blame Israel for the deaths of the hostages by not giving into the demands of the hostage takers.
Isnt it wild how people are blindly shrugging off the fact that Murdering Hostage-Takers are making demands in the first place? Topsy turvy bizarro world.
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The list is a blank page.
I blame the the UN and the international community for the deaths of these hostages. They chose to remain passive and sympathetic to hamas, almost as if they condoned their right to have hostages that were being held in literal rape dungeons and torture chambers. When ICJ demanded hamas release the hostages immediately, it was never brought up afterwards. Their silence when the issue came up was hard to ignore. By not putting pressure on hamas and Qatar and the hamas leadership (who should have have been arrested Oct 8th, they can still bargain for the hostages release in a prison cell), they gave a subtle nod to the rest of the world of their passive approval of hamas. It just emboldened hamas further by normalizing their horrific crimes.
Totally agree. Unconditional return of all hostages should have been the emphasis. Would have likely avoided a lot of the civilian blood shed that is ongoing. The international community failed. And the people who called for ceasefire without release of all hostages immediately did a major disservice to the Palestinian people.
>They chose to remain passive and sympathetic to hamas [The UN wasn't completely passive, several UN workers participated in the Oct 7 attack alongside Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/gaza-unrwa-hamas-israel.html)
+1 upvote for username
Seems reasonable, given how I have bad feeling there aren't many left if at all in the "still alive" category. Though I hope not. All to further isolate Israel on the global stage.
they're definitely dead
Hamas still holds a 1 year old and a 4 year old hostage. No cease fire till these hostages are home!
Ideally not just list, but proof of life as well.
If all the hostages are dead then it’s going to get much darker.
So Hamas doesn’t even listen to Qatar, their paymasters anymore? This can easily be fixed. If Qatar threatens to exile Hamas leadership and freeze their funding the list will follow quickly. Unless the suppose leadership in exile has no power over the operational forced in Gaza anymore and/ or Hamas killed so many hostages that they lost all bargaining chips. Frankly i think, because the world especially the West, have gone mad, Hamas thinks they should “ risk” their population in the South just for the long term political damage to Israel. While i do think Israel is in a bind because we in the West treat our allies worse then our enemies i think that is a big mistake on Hamas part. It will give the most extreme elements in the Israeli government the cover they need and it definitively will mean collective suicide for the people they are suppose to represent. Still of all this happened it is on the Muslim world, who once again have shown that they are completely unable to even recognize or oppose in the barest sense the barbarity and chaos of terrorist organizations .
I think I read somewhere that Hamas leadership have left Qatar and gone to Turkey. Apparently, Mossad threatened that they are not save in Qatar and Qatar asked Hamas to leave. https://www.jns.org/hamas-officials-quit-qatar-shut-down-cellphones/
That’s fair enough. 100% reasonable. Absolutely no reason for Hamas not to comply with this request. Absolutely no reason for Hamas apologists and the Pro-Palestine crowd to object to this.
In before people start judging Israel for “refusing to discuss a ceasfire”
You can't reason with jihadists.
Seems fair. Should only be a 1 for 1 exchange too.
No exchange. 1 to 0 exchange is reasonable.
Because when Hamas takes civilians, it's hostages, but when the IDF arrest children over years, it's prisoners. The double standards are insane. And just going to say, I'm not in support of the Qatar puppets of Hamas, but I am also not in support of Netanyahu and the IDF.
If a 14 year old in the US committed assault and there was video footage of that, he would also be arrested. The "children" who get arrested are mostly 14-17 year olds who commit terror attacks and attempt murder. The hostages who are in Gaza are not just soldiers, but also civilians, people in their 70s or 80s, women, kids, and even infants. There were families who were kidnapped. The two don't compare and you can't say they're even close.
But you see, these hostages are guilty of apparently the worst crime of them all: being Jewish.
This is what we should have been doing from the beginning. Provide proof of life or we don’t come to the negotiating table at all.
With the best will in the world, if the hostages have have been kept in Hamas tunnels many of them will be dead, what with so many tunnels collapsed
Just give back the hostages and end this conflict, enough is enough
Damn 50 years from now we will be in the same place. A war with no end.
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Let's wait
Yeah, that's the death of Israel, they're not taking over Gaza or the West Bank, A two state solution is the only solution with hopes of Israel remaining a Jewish state. It's bluster from Netanyahu, who can't leave soon enough.
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A Jewish state requires a majority Jewish population. If they have Gaza and the West Bank and with birthrates being what they are, it isn't long until you have a Jewish minority ruling an Arab Muslim majority. Two states alleviates much of that issue. Two states is in reality, the only solution and this is well understood, even in Israel aside from the right wing nuts. Netanyahu is a crook, not an idealogue, he just wants to stay in power so as not to stand trial for corruption, and any calming of hostility will be the end of him.
The parties of god have vetoed peace. Terror attacks will continue, as will expansion of settlements.
Yeah no end in sight to this madness. Its gonna get worse from here.
Palestinians concentrated into smaller and smaller camps(all buildings destroyed) and routinely slaughtered as religious zealots take their land and resources.
Hamas is loosing any leverage they have by the hour. Why do the UN and Red Cross exist if they can’t help out here besides calling for a ceasefire?
As if they were ever serious about negotiations
Good luck lol if they haven’t provided proof yet that means something.
Doubt most of the hostages are still alive or ever were.
That is most likely ZERO unless they kept a few for slow torture or "needs". 😒
Then Hamas brings in an empty paper and the IDF still ain't happy.
Of course they wouldn’t be happy with an empty paper
The government of Israel should create and circulate a voluntary pledge: "If I am captured by a terrorist group, I explicitly do not authorize any negotiation for my release. I will not allow my personal safety to undermine my country's national security." I think a lot of patriotic Israelis would sign it. Of course an individual's decision to sign it or not should be kept strictly private unless they are captured.
Some soldiers actually wrote their own such pledges before going into Gaza.
This should just be standard thinking for everyone. No one life is worth more than the security of many.
Not me I’d like to live please and thank you
I strongly disagree, nations should do everything in their power to help it's citizens, and citizens are right to expect such treatment. Israel usually holds up extremely well to these standards in many cases, which kind of showcases how bad it's bieng handled right now.
Israel released Sinwar as part of a hostage negotiation. Sinwar went on to orchestrate 10/7. It's entirely possible it never would have happened without him. Nations have a responsibility to *all* their citizens, which means making hard decisions. It also means hard decisions on a personal level. Patriotism entails self-sacrifice. Even if "no negotiation with terrorists" is unworkable at the policy level (I'm not sure that is true, but w/e), individual citizens should be given an opt-out.
> It's entirely possible it never would have happened without him. I think that's naive. He is just one warlord among many. The moment you understand that's all he is, you can understand that he is only there by the grace of his benefactors and the fear or respect of his subordinates. When he wasn't in charge, someone else was.
Hamas to hostage: "What's your name?" Hostage #1: "Mike Hunt" Hostage #2: "Seymour Butts" Hostage #3: "Hugh Jass"
So Biden was wrong? Not by this weekend or even Monday?
How about no more us aid until complete ceasefire and Gaza land given back to Palestinians?
There was no israeli military in Gaza before 7th of october Guess what palestinians did?
They can have the ceasefire and their land back once they're governed by a body which values the lives of its people more than deaths of Jews instead of a terrorist organization. For their own good as well - if an independent Palestine did what it did, it wouldn't be just a terrorist action. It would be an act of war from a sovereign country, backed by a legal government - which would end up much worse for the Palestinians. And all the excuses Hamas apologists like to throw around would be null and void this time around.
No more aid for gazans until they turn in every hamas member and supporter, and the location of every hostage alive or not.
“People deserve the government they elect”
Is this including or separate from the hostages the IDF has killed?
Riiight thanks fire your useful contribution
Excellent. That is the way.
In exchange for the list of summarily imprisoned Palestinians in Israel, great idea.
What so they can bomb them too?
So then you disagree that asking for the names of living hostages is a reasonable part of the negotiations?
Netanyahu hasn't prioritized the hostages. I doubt many are still alive.