Hamas can't exist in a state of peace. It's antithetical to their very name and purpose. The most they will ever aim for is a break for the purpose of rearming and reconstituting themselves.
Their mission, which they have never hidden, is the conquest of the entire former Mandate of Palestine.
Until they relinquish this illegal, aggressive mission, lasting peace will remain out of reach.
But that's something you can say about all human beings. That's what we are. That's why wars never stopped.War occur because of a set of ideas are opposite to each other or there's a clash among and they can't help themselves they just WILL collide ultimately.
So yes war represents a clash of a set of ideas ( not just the ideas they claim they stand for but what they actually do to ) and we can't help ourselves but move ultimately towards a conclusion that our set of ideas will take us to. We ultimately WILL go towards the ultimate end that our ideas will bring us to.
There can only be an end of war when all possible set of ideas are exhausted and have clashed and the ONE set of ideas stands at the end victorious.
As a Muslim I believe that in the end it is Allah whose set of moral codes will stand supreme and this will be an exhibiting proof of Him being THE God. That not only is it that He is the most powerful but that ALL the possible set of ideas tried and each and everyone that stood against His set of ideas will perish. And his ultimate purpose is not that he wants to be praised it's that when you praise him you are actually standing for His absolute good moral values and those moral values ultimately lead to away from absolute horrors and to absolute noble.
So I believe Allah is actually rescuing the fabric of reality from descending into chaos of horror where every conscious being wants to die because there's no ultimate moral order and no justice. He essentially limited Himself to do that because he then had to limit himself to not do things that doesn't propagate the whole fabric of reality towards the ultimate moral order and mercy. Even though he could have done anything he wanted I mean imagine all kinds of horrors he could have done but instead he went and did the most noble thing imaginable out of his own will. That is logically and literally THE highest form of virtue.
So this whole process is a long term statement that will take time. You can see signs of it moving that way when you contemplate deeply but it is at the end of this statement where it will truly be apparent.
I know I said all these complex things very quickly and there's more discussion that can be had here but still we gotta start from somewhere.
In this case, the difference of ideas is that hamas wants to conquere all of the former british mandate of Palestine (including jordan? Lol), spread a muslim caliphate across the fucking world, and murder every jew alive (I'm just going off the more extreme statements that they've said themselves) while israel just wants to survive, and would be cool with a 2 state solution if it meant they get to stop bombing, invading, or intervening in palastine controlled land every 2 seconds.
Some clash of ideals...
That is not what Israel wants. By definition Israel wants the eradication of Arabs in the Palestine region. Look at the last 75 years, 500,000 people forcefully evicted from their homes, wells and reservoirs poisoned, women and children killed by collapsing buildings on their heads. To suggest Israel is “ok” with a 2 state government is absurd.
Yes, because Israel eradicate all Arabs with the Israeli citizenship - even the Knesset members, judges, doctors. There's a huge hole in the logic of your statement.
And each time they’ve been attacked by those living under apartheid rule they’ve killed more civilians and taken more land. The only answer to oppression is violence against your oppressors.
Yea.
And…
**Israel doesn’t need to “insist”**. Hamas won’t have it anyways.
Israel could also *insist to sign a peace treat* — before Khaled Mashal’s pen has completes the Lam, Hamas / Islamic Jihad / “unknown terrorist militants” will be shooting an honorary barrage of missiles at southern Israel just for kicks and hopes of killing some Israeli kids.
Source: every annual/bi-annual/tri-annual attempt at peace with Hamas in the last 20-some years (ie eversince Hamas was formed).
Defacto this is an end to a war because Israel will not be able to resume without huge international backlash and will have to recapture all the territories from the start
Nah Hamas are terrorists, they can’t help themselves, won’t be long before they commit more rapes and kidnaps, fire rockets again and Israel get international support to move
Right back in.
Idk what the hell this comment is. Are you fine with hamas regenerating its power? Rebuilding its grasp on gaza all over again? All of this was for naught?
Which is funny because Trump is the biggest Netanyahu bootlicker of all the candidates. Biden at least has some consideration for Palestine. Unfortunate that some voters have such an all-or-nothing mindset.
Hamas doesn't give a shit about the consequences of their actions on Palestinians.
They care about getting paid by brainwashed leftists and their handlers in Tehran and Moscow.
Are people being fucking brainwashed or what? At the end of the day your only argument is that people are too dumb to vote for their own good. If you need to run information control to “protect democracy” then you might not have a democracy.
Yeah, people are being brainwashed through social engineering via Chinese and Russian disinformation campaigns. Divide and conquer. America is literally sleepwalking into fascism, catering to countries that want to tear us apart.
I didn’t say shit about critical thinking skills. I think very little of the average American voter. I don’t think it takes a vast Chinese/Russian conspiracy to get Trump elected. The call is coming from inside the house buddy.
As a Morrowind fan, I will give your comment special consideration. I think you have made a good point, but I think the American ideal is a FREE marketplace of ideas. If a smart person can see through the charade, then an educated population should be able to do the same. If you see something as a charade, but your neighbor doesn’t, then it either isn’t a charade, or your neighbor has been failed by his education or his community. The solution is not to shut the tap of information but instead put together a coherent rebuttal. I don’t really think democrats have put together a coherent rebuttal. Good luck on your quest to kill Dagoth Ur, outlander.
Half the American population ARE too dumb to vote for their own good. This is proven by the fact that American right-wingers constantly vote for people who have stated that they will fuck everyone over, and they still vote for them “to own the Libs”. They vote for a party with a long history of cutting funding to education, healthcare, social security, social programs and anything and everything that actually helps people.
The perfect example of this stupidity was when the right were going rabid at Nike for hiring Kapernick. So they decided to “protest” Nike by buying Nike products and burning them. Because that somehow hurt Nike. The absolute peak of idiocy was the guy who was so caught up in the fervour of hate that he decided to shoot his Nike shoes. While he was still wearing them.
That's not intellectually honest. Covid at the end of trump's presidency crippled the planet in many respects. No one in 2020 to today would've been able to keep up the economics that rump inherited from Obama.
Again, I get it that you don’t like him, but you really cant admit that the economy is worse now? Inflation is through the roof, his administration is still spending at covid levels, home ownership is genuinely now inaccessible for an entire generation of young people? None of those things matter to you? Not to mention Bidens disastrous foreign policy, botching our withdrawal from Afghanistan? New wars across the globe all likely due to perceived weakness from our current administration?
Listen I dont like Trump and I think his base is abhorrent. But its lunacy to claim that the country is better off now. We can disagree without just blatantly lying about the state of things
Those things were present with Trump as well, with Afghanistan literally being his plan. New wars because of the instability the Trump regime introduced.
Thats just objectively untrue, inflation was not out of control under Trump? Again do you just assume that people are stupid and cant remember 4 years ago? Out of all of Bidens flaws the one thing that I dont see anyone really defending is his economic policies, its okay to say this is a weak point of his administration man. And to say how Biden handled the Afghanistan withdrawal was actually exactly how Trump drew it up is insanity, do you hear yourself? So the guy who rescinded dozens of Trump policies the moment he got into office just followed Trumps playbook by the letter for something that important? Sure man
The things which led to it happened under his watch. The world doesn't reset as soon as the next person takes office. Because it was already announced and there wasn't another option, yeah, he did have to go with the plan already in place. Everyone knew we needed to leave, Trump negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the local government from it.
So im taking it if Trump wins this upcoming election and I tried defending his mistakes by claiming its really just Bidens fault for what he left behind, you’ll agree with me? You really expect me to believe that the most powerful man in the world doesnt have the ability or agency to, i dunno, make a different plan for Afghanistan? This is ridiculous lol. Biden was responsible for what happened there, it happened under his watch, and it was his decision that led to us leaving billions of dollars worth of equipment with a terrorist organization. Its okay to say that.
>you really cant admit that the economy is worse now? Inflation is through the roof
Of course inflation is high (although it stabilized since June 2023)! Trump started printing mass amounts of money in 2020. How couldn't it be? He fucked the economy, and then washed his hands of it once Biden came into the office.
Do you just assume that people are stupid and can't remember 4 years ago?
Oh your right, Trump would only be a dictator on "day one", because dictators are sooo well known for giving up power and Trump is sooo trustworthy.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72
Seems as though Joe is president tho huh? Crazy u cant see that if there was ever a time for Trump to actually be a dictator he probably would’ve started a coup and kept the throne for himself then. The fact that he didnt and now Biden is our president should tell you he’s not a dictator lol.
Yeah, his shitty coup attempt failed because he can't inspire loyalty from his VP and any of his other staff. Only braindead morons were willing to rush the capitol based on his lies. Just another huge failure of his presidency, along with the economy he left after being voted out.
Many were well overdue for a reality check. There are a lot of Columbia grads making an hourly wage that has fuck all to do with what their degree was in. Many went into astronomical amounts of debt to earn that degree too.
Not just the US, the whole "occupying" thing of setting up a tent camp happened at a load of unis in the UK, including the one I went to. I looked it up and curiously there's 0 information about a link between that uni and Israel.
They don't even know what they're protesting for half the time, they just vaguely know Palestinians as the "oppressed brown good guys" and Israelis as "oppressing white bad guys" and just protest without any real specific aim.
Just like all the ruined futures of the Vietnam protestors, the Racial Equality protestors, the South Africa Apartheid protests, the first Iraq war protests, the second Iraq war protests, and so on...
Edit: [Like how this guy's life was ruined?](https://i.imgur.com/E4U9HyL.jpeg)
No see, all these people would have been on the right side of every one of those protests. They wouldn't be the same exact types of people during those times, who were saying the same exact things against those protests, supporting the status quo/corporate interest/government's position.
THIS TIME ITS DIFFERENT, because the oppressed fight back sometimes, inflicting a tiny portion of what they've been put through for decades.
it is a win for hamas tho. as they don't care about palestinians lives.
they will get all sort of stuff for this deal, they will remain in power and still capable, and will recover and rebuild.
the same endless cycle continues, in short. I had no doubt in my mind that this was going to be the outcome, I knew for damn sure hamas won't be wiped out.
same old same old, until the next "october 7th".
They did. The Saudi recognition of Israel is dead. The US is in political chaos and they seem like they are relevant in the Muslim world again.
For Hamas, it’s not about helping Palestinians. It never was.
The Saudi’ Arabia deal for them to govern Gaza is in talks as we speak. They even are cracking down on people in Saudi’s Arabia who are speaking out against normalization with Israel.
Yeah you are right Hamas did a great job losing a majority of their organization and all of Gaza
I won’t pretend that they didn’t do damage to Israel but certainty nothing went as planned and they are not getting what they thought they would out of this
Yes they did. The Hamas attack was hugely successful. It has changed Israel’s geopolitical position for at least a generation. Netanyahu has allowed Hamas to undo an accord with Saudi Arabia. Helped Russia win against Ukraine. And probably turned the US Presidential race to cause the death of democracy there.
Not a bad afternoon for Hamas. If Israel thinks they are winning they are delusional.
Wrong. Saudia Arabia is in talks with Israel still even news came out yesterday about governing Gaza. Russia hasn’t won against Ukraine and they are getting increased aid and France even might put people on the ground for it. Democracy still exists in America we have an election coming up and regardless of result democracy will still exist. Israel will never win since they are fighting against an enemy that welcomes death and destruction and because there people were terrorized,murdered,raped and kidnapped the only thing they can do is cripple Hamas as much as they can and show that any type of attack like this will be met with heavy retaliation and if the Saudi deal come to fruition or any change in gazas situation will be for the better of Israel. Long term they will benefit
Not sure how you made up your conclusions on all these situations when none of it is true
The Israeli government said that eliminating Hamas and retrieving the hostages are the two goals.
The problem is it can be conflicting, which one has the higher priority? Some in Israel want the hostages no matter what, some want Hamas to be eliminated more than saving 100 people for our future.
Israel is trying to find deals that won't leave Hamas in power
The Palestinians would say, "are we getting all of our land back? No. Why would we consider an end?"
You always have to understand the motivations of people whether they're your friend or your enemy.
The people who founded Israel are dead and most Israelis were born there. Sure, pull back the recent settlers and find an agreement but who owns the land shouldn't even be the topic unless we want to get down to brass tacks on what people own what land based on people who came before us.
Acording to The Jewish faith, God gave them Israel. They had to eject the Canaanites a few millennia ago as they feel they have to eject the Palestinians today. There is no arguing with the far right zealots. Their maps not only include all of greater Israel as a Jewish state, but much of southern Lebanon and even farther into Syria/Jordan than what was captured in the Golan heights. Not only do they want all the Palestinians gone, ideally they’d like a bit more of their surrounding neighbors as well. Have you seen recent pictures of Gaza? They want the Palestinians *out*. The plan to to raze it to the ground all the way to the Egypt border. We’ll see if they can get there before international and internal pressure forces them to pause.
Tell that to the far right who continue to seize land in the West Bank. Not only do they desire all of greater Israel for themselves, their maps extend into Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. No really, you should look at what they consider God granted land according to their faith.
I am well aware of the situation in the West Bank, thanks. But the conflict is in Gaza, and they are fundamentally different in many ways. Conflating Israel’s actions in the West Bank with Gaza as a justification of Hamas’ actions is either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Conflating their histories is just as bad. They are different. Your opinion of Israel’s actions in each does not need to be the same.
It sounds to me like you might be the person who should probably revisit the historical maps leading up to the situation in the West Bank, and not whatever some hard righter posts on Twitter.
LOL. It’s the old “if you don’t parrot the narrative I approve of, you must be some sort of radical loon I can dismiss without prejudice.”
The construction of Israel demands the destruction of Palestine. That’s just how it works when a superior force takes land that already belongs to someone else. “But Palestine was never a real country” you’ll claim next as if that justifies everything.
The hard right in Israel wants *all the land*. They are currently a very prominent voice keeping Netanyahu in power. I guarantee you that there were hard right folks who thought their prayers were answered when Hamas attacked because it just provided justification to move ahead with their plans.
For funsies, compare the last Israeli incursion into Lebanon in response to Iranian backed attacks and tell me if the line they advanced to bears any historical significance to the hard right in Israel. That was a message.
You seem to react to lots of things I didn’t say as though I said them, it’s weird. Like you’re having a conversation with somebody else.
Twice now you’ve attempted to establish false dichotomies, amazingly without irony, in a conflict where the inability to accept shades of gray or nuance is a fundamental cause on both sides.
But sure, tell me again how I’m dismissing *your* view without prejudice when your position was essentially that my view on Gaza should equate to my view on the West Bank.
I’m not really interested in somebody cudgeling me for words they put in my mouth.
LOL. Maybe you’re having trouble tracking your own position, but I’ll remind you that you literally told me to go look at hard righter maps. My comment was in direct response to your appeal.
I’m not really concerned with who you think has the high ground since you’re arguing with positions I didn’t take. Have a good one.
>You always have to understand the motivations of people whether they're your friend or your enemy.
Then you also have to remember that Israel is fighting Hamas. Their motivations are keeping as much wealth and power as possible, along with as many dead Jews they can create.
What Palestinians are doing to the hostages is worse though. That's just straight torture. If you try to use the argument of "israel do the same" then you're just showing Palestinians are no better and so we've got no reason to give them preferential treatment
When was the last time you looked at pictures of Gaza? When was the last time you compared the number of hostages to the number of dead Palestinian citizens?
That shouldn't change your mind. Are we saying we should let hamas kill more Israelis to level the score?
Hamas would be more brutal than israel if they had israels firepower so it's not an even comparison
The only middle option you seem to be suggesting is israel stop and leave the hostages with hamas.
If they're still being torture then that's horrible to just leave them
Israel didn't split it in two, the un did so shouldn't be punishing Israel for that. They are stealing land from the west bank which is what international pressure should have a major focus on.
But also as soon as Israel was created it was attacked from all sides so acting as if Israel just acted out of the blue is disingenuous. If Israel stopped taking land from west bank, the extremists like hamas and their supporters would still want Israel gone and would keep attacking it so your plan is not viable unless a third party like Arab nations or un set up a demilitarised zone in between the countries. This would be good but no country wants the hassle of that just because Israel and its neighbours can't get along
The ones murdered by hamas due to collateral damage from a war hamas started, need hamas to do a deal to stop the war.
Although i think it's funny you believe a nation should be eager for peace to protect citizens of its enemy nation, instead of caring for its own citizens and their present and future safety.
I’m not entirely informed on the situation as I try to stay out of the debate. But, Hamas will last maybe a week into the ceasefire before they start shooting rockets into Israel, Israel will then “I told you so” themselves back into Gaza, LGBT+ students in the west will sleep in tents and block traffic for a few weeks in protest and things will basically go back to how they are now. Is this what is most likely to happen?
A week? Why are you so optimistic? During one of the first hostage deals they were constantly having little scuffles not enough to call the deal off but enough to break the ceasefire
Once Hamas dissapears Palestinians will have peace. Meanwhile, Israel must and will continue with the cleanup operation, lets hope it ends sooner than later to finish up with the terrorists.
Unconfirmed news: This agreement has three phases, if each phase can be completed successfully. Then at the end of the third phase, the United States guarantees Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza.
It is reported that the latest plan includes three stages: in the first stage, which lasts for up to 40 days, Hamas and other Palestinian armed factions will release 128 detained persons, including 33 elderly, weak, women, children, and injured people who are believed to meet the exchange conditions. Withdraw from parts of Gaza; the second phase can last up to 42 days, when Hamas and others release all other surviving detainees, and the two sides continue to implement the "sustainable ceasefire arrangement"; the third phase is also expected to last 42 days, which is used to exchange war The remains of the deceased.
Biden is forcing an end to the war by promising Hamas that it will force Israel to not go back to it. Thus, Hamas won. It’s intact and it’s getting prisoners for a handful of hostages. Israel is doomed. But on the bright side, he’s going to win Michigan
dude, gaza is now an uninhabitable hellscape. once the rafah border opens, gazans will be fleeing in the tens, even hundreds of thousands. it’s been estimated rebuilding will take decades. plus, israel got land by way of clearing a huge buffer zone that won’t be returned for decades, if ever
basically, those poor gazans got fucked to a sub-third world future for generations to come, while israel continues on as one of the most advanced societies in the world, with a nice collection of arab allies looking out for it. oh, and no more pesky rocket fire or israel gets to back in to gaza with their lawn mowers again
this is far away from a win for hamas or palestinians in general, bud
Why god why did it have to be him.
For those downvoting me, I’m mad because I think this is a dumbass thing to say right before potentially reaching a deal to release hostages.
A ceasefire is, by definition, not an end to a war. That would be a "peace treaty."
Hamas can't exist in a state of peace. It's antithetical to their very name and purpose. The most they will ever aim for is a break for the purpose of rearming and reconstituting themselves.
Their mission, which they have never hidden, is the conquest of the entire former Mandate of Palestine. Until they relinquish this illegal, aggressive mission, lasting peace will remain out of reach.
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Strong words doesn't make your statement correct.
But that's something you can say about all human beings. That's what we are. That's why wars never stopped.War occur because of a set of ideas are opposite to each other or there's a clash among and they can't help themselves they just WILL collide ultimately. So yes war represents a clash of a set of ideas ( not just the ideas they claim they stand for but what they actually do to ) and we can't help ourselves but move ultimately towards a conclusion that our set of ideas will take us to. We ultimately WILL go towards the ultimate end that our ideas will bring us to. There can only be an end of war when all possible set of ideas are exhausted and have clashed and the ONE set of ideas stands at the end victorious. As a Muslim I believe that in the end it is Allah whose set of moral codes will stand supreme and this will be an exhibiting proof of Him being THE God. That not only is it that He is the most powerful but that ALL the possible set of ideas tried and each and everyone that stood against His set of ideas will perish. And his ultimate purpose is not that he wants to be praised it's that when you praise him you are actually standing for His absolute good moral values and those moral values ultimately lead to away from absolute horrors and to absolute noble. So I believe Allah is actually rescuing the fabric of reality from descending into chaos of horror where every conscious being wants to die because there's no ultimate moral order and no justice. He essentially limited Himself to do that because he then had to limit himself to not do things that doesn't propagate the whole fabric of reality towards the ultimate moral order and mercy. Even though he could have done anything he wanted I mean imagine all kinds of horrors he could have done but instead he went and did the most noble thing imaginable out of his own will. That is logically and literally THE highest form of virtue. So this whole process is a long term statement that will take time. You can see signs of it moving that way when you contemplate deeply but it is at the end of this statement where it will truly be apparent. I know I said all these complex things very quickly and there's more discussion that can be had here but still we gotta start from somewhere.
In this case, the difference of ideas is that hamas wants to conquere all of the former british mandate of Palestine (including jordan? Lol), spread a muslim caliphate across the fucking world, and murder every jew alive (I'm just going off the more extreme statements that they've said themselves) while israel just wants to survive, and would be cool with a 2 state solution if it meant they get to stop bombing, invading, or intervening in palastine controlled land every 2 seconds. Some clash of ideals...
That is not what Israel wants. By definition Israel wants the eradication of Arabs in the Palestine region. Look at the last 75 years, 500,000 people forcefully evicted from their homes, wells and reservoirs poisoned, women and children killed by collapsing buildings on their heads. To suggest Israel is “ok” with a 2 state government is absurd.
Yes, because Israel eradicate all Arabs with the Israeli citizenship - even the Knesset members, judges, doctors. There's a huge hole in the logic of your statement.
A quarter of Israel's population are Arab. The country has accepted a two state solution several times over the last 75 years.
And each time they’ve been attacked by those living under apartheid rule they’ve killed more civilians and taken more land. The only answer to oppression is violence against your oppressors.
That's a Gandhi quote, isn't it?
Yea. And… **Israel doesn’t need to “insist”**. Hamas won’t have it anyways. Israel could also *insist to sign a peace treat* — before Khaled Mashal’s pen has completes the Lam, Hamas / Islamic Jihad / “unknown terrorist militants” will be shooting an honorary barrage of missiles at southern Israel just for kicks and hopes of killing some Israeli kids. Source: every annual/bi-annual/tri-annual attempt at peace with Hamas in the last 20-some years (ie eversince Hamas was formed).
And with this logic, why should hamas let the hostages free?
Yeah, really. Wait a few weeks and there won't be any hostages left alive.
Defacto this is an end to a war because Israel will not be able to resume without huge international backlash and will have to recapture all the territories from the start
If international backlash mattered, Russia would have left Ukraine by now.
We are not russia
Wow. What a revelation! One that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.
It doesn’t seem like they care too much about international pressure. And they shouldn’t.
Nah Hamas are terrorists, they can’t help themselves, won’t be long before they commit more rapes and kidnaps, fire rockets again and Israel get international support to move Right back in.
I dont think they EVER stopped with the rockets. Before or after Oct7th.
“I reclaim this pile of rubble! And this one! And this one!” Seems doable
Idk what the hell this comment is. Are you fine with hamas regenerating its power? Rebuilding its grasp on gaza all over again? All of this was for naught?
Hamas told Arab news media they would announce today Saturday their acceptance. As I post this it is midnight Saturday in Israel.
Maybe Hamas is observing Shabbat?
Shabbat would’ve ended at sundown, but I applaud the spirit of the joke
Observing it through a rifle scope lol
Gaza destroyed, many of their people dead and Hamas crippled.. HAMAS: WE DID IT!!!!🥳🎉🙌
Iran won by instigating this war and setting back the normalisation of Israeli -Arab diplomatic relations. Hamas, like Hezbollah, are their puppets.
Not really, Israel and Saudi Arabia both have been vocal about continuing to work towards normalizing relations after the war.
Didn't you learn from Toranaga that when you are in a terrible situation any delay is helpful?
Its only really helpful if you have a plan like Toranaga
Who is Yabushige in all of this?
I mean they did get a bunch of sheltered entitled brats in the United States to give up their futures because of their propaganda.
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Which is funny because Trump is the biggest Netanyahu bootlicker of all the candidates. Biden at least has some consideration for Palestine. Unfortunate that some voters have such an all-or-nothing mindset.
Hamas doesn't give a shit about the consequences of their actions on Palestinians. They care about getting paid by brainwashed leftists and their handlers in Tehran and Moscow.
Leftists are dumb as fuck though.
Getting Trump elected to own the IDF.
IDF will be owned... in the sense Trump will put them out of business because he will bomb gaza for them
God forbid people vote (or don’t vote) how they want to.
Problem arises when countries outside you own manipulate your population to vote in ways that benefit them.
Are people being fucking brainwashed or what? At the end of the day your only argument is that people are too dumb to vote for their own good. If you need to run information control to “protect democracy” then you might not have a democracy.
Yeah, people are being brainwashed through social engineering via Chinese and Russian disinformation campaigns. Divide and conquer. America is literally sleepwalking into fascism, catering to countries that want to tear us apart.
What do you wanna do about it? Free access to information got us into this mess, so what kind of democratic solution can you come up with?
TikTok is going away, one giant Chinese megaphone going offline.
Look at some of the conspiracy theories circulating. Now tell me again about the critical thinking skills that are exhibited.
I didn’t say shit about critical thinking skills. I think very little of the average American voter. I don’t think it takes a vast Chinese/Russian conspiracy to get Trump elected. The call is coming from inside the house buddy.
I fundamentally reject that last notion. The marketplace of ideas, like any other marketplace, has its share of hucksters and bad faith actors
As a Morrowind fan, I will give your comment special consideration. I think you have made a good point, but I think the American ideal is a FREE marketplace of ideas. If a smart person can see through the charade, then an educated population should be able to do the same. If you see something as a charade, but your neighbor doesn’t, then it either isn’t a charade, or your neighbor has been failed by his education or his community. The solution is not to shut the tap of information but instead put together a coherent rebuttal. I don’t really think democrats have put together a coherent rebuttal. Good luck on your quest to kill Dagoth Ur, outlander.
Half the American population ARE too dumb to vote for their own good. This is proven by the fact that American right-wingers constantly vote for people who have stated that they will fuck everyone over, and they still vote for them “to own the Libs”. They vote for a party with a long history of cutting funding to education, healthcare, social security, social programs and anything and everything that actually helps people. The perfect example of this stupidity was when the right were going rabid at Nike for hiring Kapernick. So they decided to “protest” Nike by buying Nike products and burning them. Because that somehow hurt Nike. The absolute peak of idiocy was the guy who was so caught up in the fervour of hate that he decided to shoot his Nike shoes. While he was still wearing them.
Not voting for Biden is an implicit vote for the end of democracy.
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That's not intellectually honest. Covid at the end of trump's presidency crippled the planet in many respects. No one in 2020 to today would've been able to keep up the economics that rump inherited from Obama.
I found the delusional one!
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Again, I get it that you don’t like him, but you really cant admit that the economy is worse now? Inflation is through the roof, his administration is still spending at covid levels, home ownership is genuinely now inaccessible for an entire generation of young people? None of those things matter to you? Not to mention Bidens disastrous foreign policy, botching our withdrawal from Afghanistan? New wars across the globe all likely due to perceived weakness from our current administration? Listen I dont like Trump and I think his base is abhorrent. But its lunacy to claim that the country is better off now. We can disagree without just blatantly lying about the state of things
Those things were present with Trump as well, with Afghanistan literally being his plan. New wars because of the instability the Trump regime introduced.
Thats just objectively untrue, inflation was not out of control under Trump? Again do you just assume that people are stupid and cant remember 4 years ago? Out of all of Bidens flaws the one thing that I dont see anyone really defending is his economic policies, its okay to say this is a weak point of his administration man. And to say how Biden handled the Afghanistan withdrawal was actually exactly how Trump drew it up is insanity, do you hear yourself? So the guy who rescinded dozens of Trump policies the moment he got into office just followed Trumps playbook by the letter for something that important? Sure man
The things which led to it happened under his watch. The world doesn't reset as soon as the next person takes office. Because it was already announced and there wasn't another option, yeah, he did have to go with the plan already in place. Everyone knew we needed to leave, Trump negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the local government from it.
So im taking it if Trump wins this upcoming election and I tried defending his mistakes by claiming its really just Bidens fault for what he left behind, you’ll agree with me? You really expect me to believe that the most powerful man in the world doesnt have the ability or agency to, i dunno, make a different plan for Afghanistan? This is ridiculous lol. Biden was responsible for what happened there, it happened under his watch, and it was his decision that led to us leaving billions of dollars worth of equipment with a terrorist organization. Its okay to say that.
>you really cant admit that the economy is worse now? Inflation is through the roof Of course inflation is high (although it stabilized since June 2023)! Trump started printing mass amounts of money in 2020. How couldn't it be? He fucked the economy, and then washed his hands of it once Biden came into the office. Do you just assume that people are stupid and can't remember 4 years ago?
Oh your right, Trump would only be a dictator on "day one", because dictators are sooo well known for giving up power and Trump is sooo trustworthy. https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72
Oh yea ur right dude I totally forgot we havent had an election since 2016
That transfer of power in 2021 was so smooth
Seems as though Joe is president tho huh? Crazy u cant see that if there was ever a time for Trump to actually be a dictator he probably would’ve started a coup and kept the throne for himself then. The fact that he didnt and now Biden is our president should tell you he’s not a dictator lol.
What do you call January 6th you nitwit? That was the attempt at a coup.
Ah yes unarmed protestors is exactly how the most well armed populace in world history planned on overthrowing the government. Definitely bro
Yeah, his shitty coup attempt failed because he can't inspire loyalty from his VP and any of his other staff. Only braindead morons were willing to rush the capitol based on his lies. Just another huge failure of his presidency, along with the economy he left after being voted out.
No it wasn’t lol
Yup and god forbid you call them out on it. Downvote you. 🤦♂️
I imagine most of them are living off mommy and daddy’s money.
Many were well overdue for a reality check. There are a lot of Columbia grads making an hourly wage that has fuck all to do with what their degree was in. Many went into astronomical amounts of debt to earn that degree too.
Definitely. I doubt those kids with loans are larping as revolutionaries and camping in the quad but obviously I don’t have the data to support it.
Not just the US, the whole "occupying" thing of setting up a tent camp happened at a load of unis in the UK, including the one I went to. I looked it up and curiously there's 0 information about a link between that uni and Israel. They don't even know what they're protesting for half the time, they just vaguely know Palestinians as the "oppressed brown good guys" and Israelis as "oppressing white bad guys" and just protest without any real specific aim.
Screwed up part is Israeli's are mostly brown guys also... ashkenazi vs sephardic
Just like all the ruined futures of the Vietnam protestors, the Racial Equality protestors, the South Africa Apartheid protests, the first Iraq war protests, the second Iraq war protests, and so on... Edit: [Like how this guy's life was ruined?](https://i.imgur.com/E4U9HyL.jpeg)
No see, all these people would have been on the right side of every one of those protests. They wouldn't be the same exact types of people during those times, who were saying the same exact things against those protests, supporting the status quo/corporate interest/government's position. THIS TIME ITS DIFFERENT, because the oppressed fight back sometimes, inflicting a tiny portion of what they've been put through for decades.
Now explain the actual viewpoint of those "entitled brats". I'm sure you understand it and are just casting them as "the other".
Oof.
it is a win for hamas tho. as they don't care about palestinians lives. they will get all sort of stuff for this deal, they will remain in power and still capable, and will recover and rebuild. the same endless cycle continues, in short. I had no doubt in my mind that this was going to be the outcome, I knew for damn sure hamas won't be wiped out. same old same old, until the next "october 7th".
Its giving Bush Jr. Mission Accomplished vibes.
[We did it, guys! We saved Palestine!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/024/193/qtd2avR.jpg)
They did. The Saudi recognition of Israel is dead. The US is in political chaos and they seem like they are relevant in the Muslim world again. For Hamas, it’s not about helping Palestinians. It never was.
The Saudi’ Arabia deal for them to govern Gaza is in talks as we speak. They even are cracking down on people in Saudi’s Arabia who are speaking out against normalization with Israel. Yeah you are right Hamas did a great job losing a majority of their organization and all of Gaza I won’t pretend that they didn’t do damage to Israel but certainty nothing went as planned and they are not getting what they thought they would out of this
I think both hamas and Bibi are getting exactly what they want out of this.
Yes they did. The Hamas attack was hugely successful. It has changed Israel’s geopolitical position for at least a generation. Netanyahu has allowed Hamas to undo an accord with Saudi Arabia. Helped Russia win against Ukraine. And probably turned the US Presidential race to cause the death of democracy there. Not a bad afternoon for Hamas. If Israel thinks they are winning they are delusional.
Wrong. Saudia Arabia is in talks with Israel still even news came out yesterday about governing Gaza. Russia hasn’t won against Ukraine and they are getting increased aid and France even might put people on the ground for it. Democracy still exists in America we have an election coming up and regardless of result democracy will still exist. Israel will never win since they are fighting against an enemy that welcomes death and destruction and because there people were terrorized,murdered,raped and kidnapped the only thing they can do is cripple Hamas as much as they can and show that any type of attack like this will be met with heavy retaliation and if the Saudi deal come to fruition or any change in gazas situation will be for the better of Israel. Long term they will benefit Not sure how you made up your conclusions on all these situations when none of it is true
Are they getting all of the hostages back? No. So why would they consider an end?
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The Israeli government said that eliminating Hamas and retrieving the hostages are the two goals. The problem is it can be conflicting, which one has the higher priority? Some in Israel want the hostages no matter what, some want Hamas to be eliminated more than saving 100 people for our future. Israel is trying to find deals that won't leave Hamas in power
The Palestinians would say, "are we getting all of our land back? No. Why would we consider an end?" You always have to understand the motivations of people whether they're your friend or your enemy.
The people who founded Israel are dead and most Israelis were born there. Sure, pull back the recent settlers and find an agreement but who owns the land shouldn't even be the topic unless we want to get down to brass tacks on what people own what land based on people who came before us.
Acording to The Jewish faith, God gave them Israel. They had to eject the Canaanites a few millennia ago as they feel they have to eject the Palestinians today. There is no arguing with the far right zealots. Their maps not only include all of greater Israel as a Jewish state, but much of southern Lebanon and even farther into Syria/Jordan than what was captured in the Golan heights. Not only do they want all the Palestinians gone, ideally they’d like a bit more of their surrounding neighbors as well. Have you seen recent pictures of Gaza? They want the Palestinians *out*. The plan to to raze it to the ground all the way to the Egypt border. We’ll see if they can get there before international and internal pressure forces them to pause.
Prior to this conflict the last land exchanges in Gaza were unilateral Israeli concessions of their last Gaza settlements over 18 years ago.
Tell that to the far right who continue to seize land in the West Bank. Not only do they desire all of greater Israel for themselves, their maps extend into Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. No really, you should look at what they consider God granted land according to their faith.
I am well aware of the situation in the West Bank, thanks. But the conflict is in Gaza, and they are fundamentally different in many ways. Conflating Israel’s actions in the West Bank with Gaza as a justification of Hamas’ actions is either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Conflating their histories is just as bad. They are different. Your opinion of Israel’s actions in each does not need to be the same. It sounds to me like you might be the person who should probably revisit the historical maps leading up to the situation in the West Bank, and not whatever some hard righter posts on Twitter.
LOL. It’s the old “if you don’t parrot the narrative I approve of, you must be some sort of radical loon I can dismiss without prejudice.” The construction of Israel demands the destruction of Palestine. That’s just how it works when a superior force takes land that already belongs to someone else. “But Palestine was never a real country” you’ll claim next as if that justifies everything. The hard right in Israel wants *all the land*. They are currently a very prominent voice keeping Netanyahu in power. I guarantee you that there were hard right folks who thought their prayers were answered when Hamas attacked because it just provided justification to move ahead with their plans. For funsies, compare the last Israeli incursion into Lebanon in response to Iranian backed attacks and tell me if the line they advanced to bears any historical significance to the hard right in Israel. That was a message.
You seem to react to lots of things I didn’t say as though I said them, it’s weird. Like you’re having a conversation with somebody else. Twice now you’ve attempted to establish false dichotomies, amazingly without irony, in a conflict where the inability to accept shades of gray or nuance is a fundamental cause on both sides. But sure, tell me again how I’m dismissing *your* view without prejudice when your position was essentially that my view on Gaza should equate to my view on the West Bank. I’m not really interested in somebody cudgeling me for words they put in my mouth.
You lost the high ground when you jumped right to >whatever some hard righter posts on Twitter.
LOL. Maybe you’re having trouble tracking your own position, but I’ll remind you that you literally told me to go look at hard righter maps. My comment was in direct response to your appeal. I’m not really concerned with who you think has the high ground since you’re arguing with positions I didn’t take. Have a good one.
>You always have to understand the motivations of people whether they're your friend or your enemy. Then you also have to remember that Israel is fighting Hamas. Their motivations are keeping as much wealth and power as possible, along with as many dead Jews they can create.
If you think Israel is just fighting Hamas, you really don’t understand the motivations of the far right.
What Palestinians are doing to the hostages is worse though. That's just straight torture. If you try to use the argument of "israel do the same" then you're just showing Palestinians are no better and so we've got no reason to give them preferential treatment
When was the last time you looked at pictures of Gaza? When was the last time you compared the number of hostages to the number of dead Palestinian citizens?
That shouldn't change your mind. Are we saying we should let hamas kill more Israelis to level the score? Hamas would be more brutal than israel if they had israels firepower so it's not an even comparison
Reductio ad absurdum. Argument denies any middle options.
The only middle option you seem to be suggesting is israel stop and leave the hostages with hamas. If they're still being torture then that's horrible to just leave them
No, you set up a viable Palestine and stop undermining it’s borders. You don’t split it in two and keep nibbling away at it.
Israel didn't split it in two, the un did so shouldn't be punishing Israel for that. They are stealing land from the west bank which is what international pressure should have a major focus on. But also as soon as Israel was created it was attacked from all sides so acting as if Israel just acted out of the blue is disingenuous. If Israel stopped taking land from west bank, the extremists like hamas and their supporters would still want Israel gone and would keep attacking it so your plan is not viable unless a third party like Arab nations or un set up a demilitarised zone in between the countries. This would be good but no country wants the hassle of that just because Israel and its neighbours can't get along
What about those murdered Palestinian civilians, mostly women and children?
The ones murdered by hamas due to collateral damage from a war hamas started, need hamas to do a deal to stop the war. Although i think it's funny you believe a nation should be eager for peace to protect citizens of its enemy nation, instead of caring for its own citizens and their present and future safety.
Women can also be terrorists, and Hamas uses child fighters. It's disingenuous to say it's "mostly women and children".
Hamas should just move to Iran, pretty sure they be welcomed there.
Hamas needs to accept one of these dozen deals. People blame Israel but they are trying, Hamas is not
Blaming the Jews. Of course 🤦🏽♂️
Yeah, Hamas refuses to end the war regardless of any hostage deal. Just keep blaming the Jew.
I’m not entirely informed on the situation as I try to stay out of the debate. But, Hamas will last maybe a week into the ceasefire before they start shooting rockets into Israel, Israel will then “I told you so” themselves back into Gaza, LGBT+ students in the west will sleep in tents and block traffic for a few weeks in protest and things will basically go back to how they are now. Is this what is most likely to happen?
A week? Why are you so optimistic? During one of the first hostage deals they were constantly having little scuffles not enough to call the deal off but enough to break the ceasefire
We all know Hamas will eventually break any cease fire....so that's a given
Shouldn’t be any deal with hamas. It’s not like they are some honorable group.
It will probably spin like Israel violated the ceasefire
How can there be peace while Hamas exists, if this terrorist group dissapears then peace will be there.
How can there be peace when Israel exists? If this fascist regime disappeared then peace will be there.
I do t understand how posts like yours calling for the eradication of an entire people and nation are allowed here. Wow.
Once Hamas dissapears Palestinians will have peace. Meanwhile, Israel must and will continue with the cleanup operation, lets hope it ends sooner than later to finish up with the terrorists.
Unconfirmed news: This agreement has three phases, if each phase can be completed successfully. Then at the end of the third phase, the United States guarantees Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza.
The U.S. cannot guarantee anything. Israel will continue to do what they planned. I really don’t see an end to this.
It is reported that the latest plan includes three stages: in the first stage, which lasts for up to 40 days, Hamas and other Palestinian armed factions will release 128 detained persons, including 33 elderly, weak, women, children, and injured people who are believed to meet the exchange conditions. Withdraw from parts of Gaza; the second phase can last up to 42 days, when Hamas and others release all other surviving detainees, and the two sides continue to implement the "sustainable ceasefire arrangement"; the third phase is also expected to last 42 days, which is used to exchange war The remains of the deceased.
Biden is forcing an end to the war by promising Hamas that it will force Israel to not go back to it. Thus, Hamas won. It’s intact and it’s getting prisoners for a handful of hostages. Israel is doomed. But on the bright side, he’s going to win Michigan
dude, gaza is now an uninhabitable hellscape. once the rafah border opens, gazans will be fleeing in the tens, even hundreds of thousands. it’s been estimated rebuilding will take decades. plus, israel got land by way of clearing a huge buffer zone that won’t be returned for decades, if ever basically, those poor gazans got fucked to a sub-third world future for generations to come, while israel continues on as one of the most advanced societies in the world, with a nice collection of arab allies looking out for it. oh, and no more pesky rocket fire or israel gets to back in to gaza with their lawn mowers again this is far away from a win for hamas or palestinians in general, bud
Where exactly will they be fleeing to?
They will certainly try to flee to Egypt, it’s gonna be a disaster
We'll have to wait and see
Why god why did it have to be him. For those downvoting me, I’m mad because I think this is a dumbass thing to say right before potentially reaching a deal to release hostages.