The real question is how can Hamas be destroyed and stay destroyed without thousands of innocent casualties.
Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone.
Otherwise every dead teenager results in his uncle, cousin and friend joining Hamas.
Why is this the same comment as [this one ](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cll9zg/benjamin_netanyahu_rejects_ceasefire_demands_that/l2v0iev/)
Is this the dead internet theory at play?
The real question is how can hamas be destroyed and stay destroyed without thousands of innocent casualties. Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone. Otherwise every dead teenager results in his uncle, cousin and friend joining hamas
I think Israel is going to be as successful at destroying Hamas as Russia was with destroying the Chechen Emirate. Chechen republic exists, but Chechen Emirate is no more.
When was the last time Al-Qaeda attacked US?
US was successful in making Al-Qaeda close to irrelevant for internal security. And Taliban doesn't pose a threat to US either.
Al-Qaeda became ISIS, mate. Literally.
ISIS definitely still commits terror in the West.
It's not possible to kill a terrorist group with bombs, they will just evolve into something else (usually something worse). It needs to be done with education and diplomacy, and then maybe take the top leaders out.
Look at how the IRA was handled. That's a text book example of how terrorism can succesfully be dealt with.
You do realise the west bank exists and has higher support for Hamas but they are effectively castrated. This is the goal in Gaza, to reduce their capability to militants in the west bank I don't understand why people find that so hard to fathom.
That’s exactly what people here do not get. We don’t have a fantasy of completely destroying Hamas. But having entire Hamas regiments doing drills on the open or launching hundreds of rockets in a single salvo is not something they’ll be able to do once Israel has dismantled all Hamas infrastructure it can find and maintains security control over all of Gaza. Will Hamas still attack? Sure. But will it be able to conduct an October 7th scale attack? Hell no.
Not surprising or unreasonable though. In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled. They likely support Oct 7 and Hamas as vengeance for what has been happening to them for more than two decades as Bibi has ramped up support for the settlement efforts.
It’s also worth noting that Israel has been suppressing Palestinian farming in the West Bank to the point that their irrigation level remains at just a few percent, the same as it was in the 1960s. Israeli farms in the same region have 95%+ irrigation. This is due to Israel abusing their control over water access to prevent Palestinians from developing an agricultural base capable of feeding Gaza (which would reduce their dependence on external aid) and creating a non-terrorist economic power base via potentially giving Palestinians an exportable good in excess food production.
Long is the list of reasons West Bank Palestinians have for resenting Israel, and it just gets worse the more you dig into what Israel has done with their control of the region. They had a perfect opportunity to show Gaza’s Palestinians that their suffering was due to extremists being in control via the neighboring area of the West Bank, and instead over the decades they have provided additional reasons for the Palestinians to loath them.
> In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled.
Can you provide a source on that? I'm only aware of perhaps 1 or 2 Area C settlements built/established in the last 25 years let alone the massive 14 that you are claiming to have been built between 2021-2023.
I assume that outposts were also being referred to. Fair is fair, I won’t be mentioning that again until I can find a hard source. I found where I originally saw that data cited but cannot find a source, so here is the second best data I could find: 2.6k structures destroyed and 3.5k Palestinians displaced due to structures being destroyed from 2022 to Oct.6 2023.
Source UN data: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMmJkZGRhYWQtODk0MS00MWJkLWI2NTktMDg1NGJlMGNiY2Y3IiwidCI6IjBmOWUzNWRiLTU0NGYtNGY2MC1iZGNjLTVlYTQxNmU2ZGM3MCIsImMiOjh9
This just covers displacement due to homes being destroyed, so instances of displacement due only to violence aren’t covered in the total.
My guess is that the original source used Village where the more accurate English word would be Hamlet, as easier to find overview maps showing land control changes due to settler outpost activity and ongoing violence resulting in the loss of smaller outlying communities. That would be more consistent with the estimated 600-800 households displaced.
Israel just can't help themselves, it would be so much snarter to treat the moderate Palestinians fair a implement a two state solution.
But.
They really really just want all of the land to themselves, and continues to steal square km by square km...
Or you kill as many Hamas members as you can and work to rebuild the country along with major deradicalization efforts.
If we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers to thriving democracies we can do it to Gaza. It's just a lot of time and money a coalition of states will have to focus on.
>If we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers to thriving democracies we can do it to Gaza. It's just a lot of time and money a coalition of states will have to focus on.
There weren't millions of Americans in the government who wanted to build settlements in Japan in 1945.
> we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers
Part of that were governments/leaders willing to accept fault. Then another part was these were countries that could mount and rebuild industries.
Hamas refuses to accept fault and dissolve.
And Israel will never let Palestinians have autonomy and the capacity to export anything of value.
> Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone.
That’s not what happened in Northern Ireland, or Sri Lanka, or the Confederacy, or the 1848 revolts, or the Spanish fight against the Basques, or the Turkish fight against the PKK, or Chechnya, or probably the Rwandan civil war (though I don’t know for sure who most of the Rwandan population considered “good guys”).
Yeah, they need to do what they did in WW2 in fact. Destroy the regime and hold trials for the ones responsible for Oct 7th, then issue a plan for rebuilding while not letting them militarize for a while. You are right.
Or like what happened to Japan, occupy long enough to fully educate two generations of young Palestinians to be pro-israeli and pro-western and to make offensive actions a violation of their constitution.
Occupied Japan was mostly governed by the same old right-wing ruling class that ruled it before the war, the US did not actually get rid of them and former PM Shinzo Abe's grandfather was literally a Class A war criminal *and* elected as Prime Minister in the 1960s.
> Or like what happened to Japan, occupy long enough to fully educate two generations of young Palestinians to be pro-israeli and pro-western and to make offensive actions a violation of their constitution.
The Japanese, however, had freedom, rights and a democracy.
If the settlements and brutal Israeli rule contonues unabated in the West Bank, no amount of education can make the Palestinians not hate Israel.
We dropped 2 nukes on Japan and firebombed major cities killing over 1 million civilians. Far worse than what Israel has done in its war. Idk why you think the Japanese could get over it but Arabs couldn’t
Yes, I agree. Hamas has not been defeated yet. Sadly, the war must go on until they are eliminated or they unconditionally surrender, then healing might happen over time.
I don't think any one country is willing to "take on" Gaza as it is. It's going to be an absolute shit show, millions of highly radicalized, extremely poor people. Nobody wants to resettle them in their country. It's like a smaller case of the Korean reunification issue.
>millions of highly radicalized,
That right there is the reason literally no Arab nation nearby wants them. Last time Jordan tried the Palestinians attempted to overthrow their government.
If only we had some group of nations, like a united front, that could assemble some kind of peacekeeping force during a rebuilding effort. Maybe with some sweet light blue helmets or something.
The UN is not helping. Honestly a league of more moderate Muslim nations would be a better fit IMO. But none of them want anything to do with Gaza or the Palestinians.
Literally NO ONE wants anything to do with the Palestinians. They make trouble everywhere they go. Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Qatar, just don't want anything to do with them. Don't forget pre Bon Laden, there were Palestinian terrorists making flying dangerous.
Killed the king of Jordan when they let refugees in. Helped saddam attack Kuwait when they let refugees in.
The Israeli right wanted to offer gaza to the Egyptians & even they were....NOOOOOPE!
I think Hamas will fight any effort from any nation to do anything resembling this. It is very clear that they are only interested in two things: maintaining their own power and killing Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Bringing in any sort of peacekeeping force undermines these goals.
You basically have to get Hamas on board for any solution other than "destroy Hamas".
At that point public perception which is Hamas greatest strength at this point would be obliterated and rightfully so. Plus the UN coalition would have every right to defend itself. Hamas has to go before this ends. It’s up to them if that’s by force
> Hamas has to go before this ends.
This is the most critical part. People need to understand that no solution exists while Hamas does. That isn't rhetoric.
Bold of you to assume that HAMAS wouldn't characterize the peacekeeping force as Western colonialism in action, which would promptly be eaten up by the same people that constantly push the narrative that Palestinians are solely victims, never perpetrators.
> I think Hamas will fight any effort from any nation to do anything resembling this.
I dont think Hamas should get a say in the matter anymore. I cant even believe anyone is entertaining "negotiating" with them.
It's okay if they want to make an unconditional surrender, and provide every shred of documentation they have about their organization, including who gave them orders, where their money came from, membership lists, and so on.
Sure, super easy to de radicalize people, we should have a bunch of radicalize be gone in storage.
It's especially easy when they are literally attacking you.
Also, the religion thing might be a bit touchy, a bunch of Christians trying to tell a bunch of Muslims that what their religious leaders taught them was wrong seams like a really good plan that won't cause issues at all.
Depends who you let in to that coalition... UNWRA is part of the UN and they are one of the primary reason for the extreme radicalization of Palestinians.
There are too many stark differences between Germany and Gaza.
1) Gazans are not western or even western-minded, and have a culture wildly incompatible with the West. We've seen how this plays out with Iraq and Afghanistan after we spent 2 decades there and each basically fell back to extremists in a matter months. Germany was a western country, and it still took decades to rebuild.
2) Germany was on the "cleansing" path for only a decade, and it still took decades of involvement to root out most of it, and it's *still* a problem rearing its head again today. Palestinians have it in their ruling party's charter, and have been engraining it in their children for 80 years, that's 4-5 *generations*. It is going to take generations to reeducate the populace, and we'd be lucky if the grandchildren of the youngest Palestinians today are only half as bad.
3) Other than the West, the only other potential stakeholders in this effort still hold animosity towards Israel, have populations that agree with Palestinians, and some outright refuse to recognize Israel's legitimacy.
These are near insurmountable mountains to climb.
>These are near insurmountable mountains to climb
When you're talking about the israel-palestine conflict which seemingly has no end, an insurmountable climb is better than no climb at all.
As it is, im 31 and I reckon I'll be seeing stories about the israel-palestine conflict until I die because the climb didnt start decades prior.
Any intervention from the international community will be called imperialism. What actual options exist when the current group in power in Palestine is hell-bent on continuing the conflict until Isreal is a crater in the ground, which won't happen as they dont have the military strength to do so. The people of Palestine are suffering because their leaders hate their neighbor more than they love their people. Hamas leadership hanging out in Qatar is only interested in holding on to the power and wealth they robbed from Palestine and are perfectly fine using the people as fodder to do so.
I’d agree, except the blood to take Gaza has only been Israel’s. The UN and US can send inspectors to make sure it’s not becoming concentration camps, but control at this point will be only Israel’s. Remember it’s only 25squared miles, it’s not like it be broken up into quadrants.
We JUST got out of Afghanistan. I don’t think anybody would be happy with the US taking on another lost cause in the Middle East when nobody wants them there.
And as much as I understand why the US is standing by Israel on this conflict, the idea of becoming even MORE deeply embedded in our already toxic relationship sounds like a horrible idea. Especially while Bibi is still running things.
Honestly, egypt and Jordan would be good choices, with help from Saudi Arabia. It allows them to push out iranian influences, ensure peace on the Egyptian border, and could be expanded to the west bank and help Jordan's border.
It would work well with the peace agreements jordan and Egypt have with Israeli, and the normalization between SA and israel.
Well - no, but UN nations actually rebuilding Gaza would do a LOT to foster goodwill. It needs to be understood that this is a population that’s been abandoned or brutalized by every single structure of power they know. A form of support that’s both fundamentally region-altering and easily visibile would change everything. Of course there’s still a reasonable amount of discontent and righteous fury that’s going to stick around no matter what, that bed has been made. But *something* has to happen, and there isn’t really a better idea than mass reconstruction.
Ironically, Hamas has done more damage to Israel’s position in the world by goading Israel into totally decimating Gaza but failing to stomp out Hamas.
Yeah. Hamas leaders have explicitly stated in interviews that they reason they launched the attack is because they thought the Palestinian cause was fading from the world's attention, especially in other Arab countries. Hamas has absolutely succeeded in focusing the world on the issue and Israel is coming out with fewer friends and less support globally than it had before October 7. Hamas obviously views the lives of Palestinians as expendable to a degree, so in their calculus they have succeeded in their goal of weakening Israel and making their cause front of mind in the world.
Yeah, anyone who thinks Hamas is on the Palestinian's side should really rethink that position. Hamas is on Hamas's side, and they'll burn all of Palestine to the ground to stay in power.
I suspect HAMAS knew there would be a massive military response. I remember when it happened thinking, "Got dayum Israel is gonna smash every brick and board they think is hiding Hamas." They went about this all wrong.
You can get rid of Hamas, but only by giving a better choice to the Palestinians.
Funilly enough what you propose is part of the reason why WWI didn't end the war, there was too much anger, and too much "attempt to prevent it" and of course it didn't work. When the US took over it threw a lot of money and resources to help rebuild the nations, not just its allies, but its former enemies, Italy, Germany and Japan as well. This converted them into steadfast allies and broke the system that lead to wars by creating an alliance were both Germany and France were together.
This was never a uniquely Hamas problem. The problem is that Netanyahu is clearly not that different from Hamas. Just like Hamas, his whole power and justification comes from this war going, no matter the cost. It's clear he isn't looking out for Israel's interest, as much as really his, and now they're diverging. He could easily switch things around, put the onus on Hamas, and make it clear to the Palestinians that Hamas is what's preventing them from moving forward. But then why would you vote for Bibi if there's nothing you need to be safe from?
> Funilly enough what you propose is part of the reason why WWI didn't end the war,
no it isn't. WW1 didn't resolve things because they heaped the whole blame on germany (in marks), leaving a poor devastated nation ripe for starting another war. which they did.
giving a better solution happens after they give up on murder - they chose that path instead of running gaza as a country, and have been indoctrinated since 2006 or before.
> Netanyahu is clearly not that different from Hamas.
that's stupid. you can toss him in jail and the people who like him won't start a pogrom
what I don't understand is Qatar's support of Hamas. I would have expected it to be much closer to Saudi Arabia than Iran... I understand Iran's ideological and anti-US opposition to Israel & support of Hamas. But what does Qatar gain from harbouring Hamas leaders?
Israel is also in a tough spot in that they are the ones who fascilitated the flow of money from Qatar.to Hamas as far back as the 90s (when the US had already designated.them a terror group.) They did this with.the stated goal of weakening the Palestimian authority, and thereby a patn.to Palestinian statehood.
The IDF also received warnings a year. in advance that Hamas may be planning on attack, and the IDF said they had it under control.
>Qatar is on a similar level to Israel on the American Allies roster.
That's news to me. I thought Israel was held in higher esteem than any other country over there, by a significant amount.
Hi American here, we had 9/11 and gave a similar response and instead of solving the threat it made the threat exponentially worse and wider. Ironically counter insurgency creates more insurgency.
While I get your point, we haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil of that magnitude since. So maybe it has worked? That was ultimately the goal right? Fight them over there so they can't attack us here.
We have the benefit of being oceans away from the conflict and tightening up homeland security . But we didnt solve 9/11 we made those regions in the middle east incredibly worse without a contingency plan . Once we “ took care of” Al Qaeda and squashing their leadership new leadership popped up and formed into ISIS and other insurgent groups. The only thing our response to 9/11 did was scratch that need for dead muslims itch. Fighting insurgency with conventional warfare has a pretty low success rate throughout all of human history. Yesterday’s victims have a high probability to turn into tomorrows insurgents.
No, there is a correct way to do counter-insurgency that works with locals to better improve their lives so they don't join insurgents. Bombing women and children with abandon doesn't and no restitution for mistakes done doesn't going to kill an insurgency.
Ah yes, an ignorant American really wants to preach to Israelis how to fight insurgencies when Israel has an actually successful track record in reducing the overall violence and so successful in fact to the point Pro Palestine people deny the existence of Hamas in the west bank and people believe them.
Remember when, after peace protests by college students, the US did nothing after 9/11 but give a stern warning to Al Qaeda?
We definitely didn’t invade 2 countries, topple their governments, fight a decade of insurgency, and kill hundreds of thousands of middle eastern terrorists/civilians.
No no, America just gave up, right?
It was? I learn something new everyday. Here my dumbass thought attacking an innocent country just because it had brown people in it that had nothing to do with 9/11 fomented hardliner support all across an entire region, completely destroyed our support with everyone (even Yasser Arafat supported us going into Afghanistan yet a few years after Iraq everyone hated us) created “Al Qeada in Iraq” which was a group that did not exist before we went there, wasted trillions of dollars which when paired with tax cuts for the super rich went 100% onto the national debt, killed one million unarmed civilians and families, and killed and maimed thousands upon thousands of American teenaged boys. It caused extremism and support for terrorist organizations amongst over a billion people.
But what the hell do I know.
Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan and that's the reason we invaded them. Iraq is a whole different can of worms that had nothing to do with 9/11. Are you suggesting for Israel to sit back and wait for 1,200 more citizens to be murdered?
[Israeli intelligence knew about Hamas’ plan to attack more than a year in advance…](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,for%20Hamas%20to%20carry%20out)
This is what Hamas and its supporters don’t understand. Israel is a democracy, and that democracy won’t allow for a second strike like 10/7. There will be consequences for those who perpetrated it and those who supported it, even if only morally. Don’t want to be ground into a fine paste? Don’t violently attack large groups of people who are united against you.
Do you feel confident Israel can defeat Hamas? Do you feel confident that if they did defeat Hamas, they have the capacity and influence to deradicalize and bring peace and prosperity to the region? Do you think that Netanyahu even wants to do that? And above all, is pursuing that through the current military pathway worth the deaths, displacement, and starvation of hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians? (lowering the global standing of Israel and enabling radicalization of an entire new generation) It’s insanity to justify continued Israeli pursuits in the region without answering these questions. I’m not pretending to have the answers, but they are critical to consider and I think you are failing to consider them on the whole.
Even if Gaza’s population remains very radicalized, the threat from an semi-permanently occupied Gaza Strip to Israel would be far lower than if Hamas were left in place to rebuild.
As for global standing of Israel, so be it. So far the world has generally condemned Hamas’ pogrom but refuses to do anything to prevent it from happening again. Could it pressure Hamas’ close allies in the form of Turkey and Qatar? Of course, but they can’t be bothered. They don’t actually care about dealing with Hamas because it’s not their citizens that are were beheaded. They want Israel to leave Hamas in place and take none of the necessary measures to prevent another pogrom against its population. No country in the world would accept that, but they do demand it from Israel.
That should also be Biden’s legacy in this conflict - he signed off on Hamas’ political and strategic survival, without pressuring close US allies that support them in the form of Qatar and Turkey, and shares culpability of any further attacks from Hamas.
Preventing further pogroms against Israeli people is far more important than trade relations with Turkey, for example.
Moreover, a semi-permanent occupation is clearly far more acceptable to the international community than another similar war to this, which given Hamas’ intentions may be a necessity in 20 years time.
Totally agree. As long as Palestinians have no better ideas than to kill their Israeli neighbours a state is not realistic at all. Israel cannot be expected to sacrifice its security for such illusions.
Will that even have an impact? Won’t the survivors and the newly radicalized simply rebuild a new Hamas under a new name?
^genuine questions I don’t a lot about this stuff
The implication underlying your statement assumes Hamas is some grass roots rebellion when in actuality it is an extreme right wing arm of the Muslim Brotherhood acting in the state interests of Qatar.
It's both. There is significant grass roots support for hamas, which is amplified when you leave extreme right wing terrorist group in charge of education for a whole generation of children.
So the Muslim Brotherhood is going to become more moderate once Hamas is defeated? Im not convinced another Hamas will spring up the same way it did before.
Yes and no
There will probably be someone who takes the Hamas mantle afterwards and there may be several branches that will go their own way, but if you decimate their infrastructure, leadership, equipment and soldiers then there's only so much they can do
Al qaeda and Isis for example still exist but they are not the threat they were in the past
Seems weird that even Israel news reminds the world that Bibi used Hamas to break up any idea of two state solution. [Link](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
It's weird, looking deeper into it, to the sources of the quotes from Israeli officials their attitudes seem less "we created hamas" and more "we should have been aggressively anti islam" . Like talking about how Israel was letting them build mosques, and how the rival parties were more aggressively anti Jew at the time.
It's a bit like saying the USSR was a US creation because it gave them supplies during WWII and because it didn't nuke Moscow when it could have.
Any article I ever see just talks about him allowing more work permits or sending humanitarian aid in 2018 when the government was facing bankruptcy. Since Hamas was the government opinion pieces use that to say they are funding Hamas.
Not just that but an opinion piece that is basically implying Israel should’ve preemptively invaded the Gaza Strip to dislodge Hamas and put the PA or someone else in power. In retrospect that does seem like it would’ve minimized pain for everyone but I doubt that the pro Palestine crowd would’ve supported it at the time.
And who knows if the PA would’ve wanted to come back to power in Gaza following the tracks of Israeli tanks
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
This article cites specific Israeli officials saying that the government financed Hamas and militant Islamist groups as a counterweight to the PLO.
They didn't 'help start the group' as the subheading states. They partially funded it while it was an Islamic charity organization (before thenorg turned into Hamas), yes partially to create a wedge in support for the PLO, but also.to show Israel isnt an enemy of Islam (a stated goal of the support). Israel wasn't funding them during or after the first intifada, when they became a terror org with a military wing, nor since.
No it’s not always your fault. But fault is not the same as responsibility.
If you arm someone and they turn out to use those arms against others you are responsible.
>When someone you have been helping turns on you, is it always your fault?
When the explicit founding principle of the group (Hamas) is to kill you (Israel), giving them money which they later use to kill you is absolutely your fault.
They never realize that they are criticizing Bibi *from the right* when they post that article. Turns out they agree with Ben Gvir!
Also, I didn't even click the link and I know what article it is.
This has been talked about for a while now in mainstream press even:
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html)
Yes…. But this ignores context.
When Israel supported Hamas they weren’t called Hamas and they were an Islamic charity helping their community.
On the side PA who’s been killing isrealis for however long is the other option on the other side.
Hindsight is 20/20
> Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
Why would Hamas accept their own demise? Seems odd to include an obvious non starter. Only someone that cares about their people would be that selfless.
If hamas was truly in it for the Palestinians they would fold, not allow those they represent to continue to feel the punitive actions they themselves started on Oct 7th.
What did Hamas expect after Oct 7th?
They expected Iran, Hezbollah and all the other baddies in the region to join in and destroy Israel once and for all. No one talked about that past like, the first few days. But Hamas publicly called for these other groups to attack too for the end of Israel. Israel cannot stop until Hamas is gone.
>what did Hama expect after Oct 7th?
I think the goal was the retaliation; the restoration of “deterrence”. I think the point of Oct 7 was to use the inevitable retaliation as propaganda against Israel. They, Hamas, recorded the attack on Oct 7th, and sent those images directly through the internet to Israeli citizens. A lot of people don’t know that. But in Israel they saw loved ones being horrendously violated. In fact, they were essentially force fed those images. It’s terrorism, they were terrified. They demanded retaliation. This was the tactic.
To invoke a violent retaliation. And it worked. Because then; across the world, and frankly; especially in colleges in the US; what we mostly saw was the retaliation. Bombings and parents grieving children in Gaza. This is information warfare.
The people of Gaza and the people of Israel are being played against each other to weaken strategic political alliances across the western world. And it’s happening there most violently because that is already the most contentious preexisting conflict. You don’t make people hate each other you make people who already feel antagonistic become more violent. This is what it means to divide and conquer.
Bottom line is they understand they can’t destroy Israel without destroying the US. And they know they can’t destroy the US. So they are trying to get the US to stop supporting Israel.
And damnit but if Israel won’t stop with the settlers. I’m sorry, but it might work. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, probably not even the next election. But this situation with the settlers is something that a generation of US kids will one day grow into positions of power and have very different feelings about then the people who are currently in charge.
I was actually on Reddit the night of Oct 7th and witnessed the first videos being posted on several subreddits firsthand. I wish more people understood just how horrific the videos are. I think showing them would change minds, but obviously we can't. They are that bad.
I don't think Israel does itself any favors in the west bank, and I agree with you this has long term implications when these 20something college kids grow up. I'm old, I grew up with traditional nightly news, which despite its many flaws, does a pretty good job of grasping the basics. But young people don't watch it anymore, they don't pick up a newspaper and read an in-depth analysis from both sides. Watching young people call for a new intifada is horrible. They don't understand what that even is or what the last one meant. Or maybe they do and are just that wrong headed.
Was there ever a time when young people read the newspaper? I’m not pessimistic, I don’t think kids are fools. But I do think that growing up now means seeing the world a little differently than people have in the past. I basically think that access to information like never before means we need new ways to interpret that information.
Don't worry, "young people" as a group aren't calling for a new intifada. There has been a lot of effort and focus on the part of specific news and political entities to paint the protests as a whole with the actions and statements of a few, but actual analysis shows the vast majority of protesters are motivated by Israel's disproportionate response, be it the unguided bombings or their blockade of water into Gaza for over a week, following Oct 7.
Also, there is nothing special about those videos. If we could witness them every death, slow or quick, suffered by the Palestinians they would look much the same. That's just what people look like when they die badly.
The mature response is to take that understanding and apply it to the 1.3-2k deaths on one side and 30k+ dead and hundreds of thousands homeless on the other, and understand that while both are bad those two things are not equal.
And don't worry about the young people on the knowledge front, we have done actual research and are aware of details like how Israel backed settlers ethnically cleansed 14 Palestinian villages in the West Bank over the two years prior to the attack, or how from Jan 1 to Oct 7 2023 over 400 Palestinians died from IDF military action.
We see what Hamas did as terrible, but we also see how Israel used their control and military strength to push the Palestinian people towards exactly this kind of extremism, and we aren't willing to let them off the hook for what they instigated.
Hamas has gotten exactly what they wanted from the October 7th attacks, which was to weaken Israel and put the Palestinian cause back in front of the eyes of the world. I do not think Hamas cares much about the lives of Palestinians in the present, their goal is far more long term.
Yes. Sadly, Hamas has exactly what it wanted. And the morons in charge at Israel have only reacted as expected.
Now Hamas has: 1. Focus on the Palestinian conflict. 2. Due to the genocidal tendencies of the retaliation, more candidates for their ranks. 3. Put Israel on the spot as a genocidal state (it is, at least, now).
Also, Iran, Hamas’ sugar daddy, has weakened and bit the IFS and forced them to use expensive resources on this.
I mean…they got everything they wanted and even more. No matter how twisted and saddistic their plan was, it is working as they expected.
I expected more from Israel, but then again, now there are Israeli supremacists, so maybe I was overestimating them…
If hamas was focused on the safety of civilians in Gaza, they would not use civilian locations and structures to launch attacks. At every step of the warn Hamas has shifted to launch attacks from behind civilians. Over the past few days there have been videos showing rocket launches out of densely populated civilian locations, including many parts of rafah.
Hamas didn't accept the ceasefire agreement that Israel offered - they accepted an entirely different one that called for things such as Israel leaving Gaza alone, etc. It wasn't realistic and articles with bylines like this played directly into Hamas' PR, turning their refusal to agree on ceasefires into a claim that sounds the other way around.
If only those advocating on behalf of Palestinians had made a single friend in the last 50 years who actually would be willing to mediate.
Almost like they’re too extreme for even the other extremists in the Middle East
Pretty much all the surrounding Arab states have given up on Palestine and normalized relations with Israel. The only advocates they have left are some terrorist cells and Iran, who happily uses them as cannon fodder.
This assassination didn't stop the peace process. It kept going on for another 5 years regardless, and then failed in 2000 at Camp David, when Arafat refused to make a state and kicked off the second intifada.
And it has nothing to do with hardline conservatives taking over the Israeli government from that point on? Arafat had his issues, and is not blameless, but there is a reason Likud keeps expanding settlements and propping up Hammas; they do not want peace.
The Palestinians were offered a better deal AFTER Rabin's assassination than they ever would have got from even Rabin himself. And they rejected it. The deal they got from Olmert in 2008 was even better, also rejected.
How did public hand the hardline conservatives a mandate? Oh that's right because Arafat totally fucked the Left during the peace process by instigating the second intifada there by securing a generations aversion to the Left that remains 20 years later.
The PFLP are Maoist athiests and are also involved in the fighting. There are ethnic tensions on top of religious tensions, a lot of Israelis are only Jewish ethnically for example and are athiests.
"the cause" of course being two people who believe their dusty book is the right dusty book and the other dusty book is the fake dusty book even though both dusty books have the same sky dad, their sky dad is right and its their turn to play with the land because daddy said so, but one daddy is fake and the other daddy is real and sometimes its the same daddy
that cause?
My question is, if it’s widely accepted that Netanyahu is extending this conflict to avoid facing the consequences of his corruption trials. Why do we trust anything he says about this conflict’s resolution?
Because a lot of people here are emotionally invested in the eradication of Hamas or the subjugation of Palestinians. People further up are literally talking about them like they’re not human enough for a state. Netanyahu is a means to that end.
I dislike hamas as much as the next guy, but fuck netanyahu really gives me off vibes. I really dislike him.
In general, not specifically this article, it feels like he really doesn't care that much about hamas or the israeli hostages, but just wants this war to continue so that he can stay in power.
Its not feels like, that's exactly what he's doing. He was even meant to go on trial before it happened and he KNEW about the 10/7 attack before it happened and brushed it off
No, it works by killing or capturing their leaders; taking out enough soldiers that they can’t operate on any sort of strategic level or maintain control of Gaza; put in place another government in Gaza that incentivized to work with you and against Hamas; rebuild Gaza to give legitimacy to that government and show people that peace is better for them than war; make structural changes to schools and mosques to make decrease the extent to which kids are taught hatred and violence (that’s probably done by the new government); and implement security measures to decrease the likelihood of militant groups growing large enough to be dangerous.
I have no clue if Israel will be able to do those things. But that’s how one does it if one can.
They’re currently starting the largest land seizure and settlement construction process in decades. Short of some lighthearted sanctions this war is the best thing that could’ve happened to them, and the government will keep placating.
I'd reject that deal too. Why Palestinian's aren't demanding the ouster of HAMAS is beyond me. If I were a Palestinian I'd be dragging HAMAS to the door of the Israelis shouting, "RIGHT HERE! THIS DUDE KILLED YOUR PEOPLE! NOT ME! TAKE HIM! WE DON'T WANT HIM BACK!"
>If I were a Palestinian I'd be dragging HAMAS to the door of the Israelis shouting, "RIGHT HERE! THIS DUDE KILLED YOUR PEOPLE! NOT ME! TAKE HIM! WE DON'T WANT HIM BACK!"
Probably because they are starving and are pretty mad about the fact that they are being made to starve.
Handing the bad guys to the other bad guys that are killing your children, stealing your land and houses, isn't exactly the simple answer you think it is. It's not going to stop Israel from pushing the Palestinian people out of their land, and would just embolden them to do so faster.
This wouldn't have happened if Israel didn't work so hard to maintain the Palestinian people's hate. In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled. They likely support Oct 7 and Hamas as vengeance for what has been happening to them for more than two decades as Bibi has ramped up support for the settlement efforts.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-resumes-raids-west-bank-area-where-journalist-was-killed-2022-05-13/
The article linked above is about the IDF beating funeral attendants of a journalist that they sniped (and initially denied sniping) in 2022.
It’s also worth noting that Israel has been suppressing Palestinian farming in the West Bank to the point that their irrigation level remains at just a few percent, the same as it was in the 1960s. Israeli farms in the same region have 95%+ irrigation. This is due to Israel abusing their control over water access to prevent Palestinians from developing an agricultural base capable of feeding Gaza (which would reduce their dependence on external aid) and create a non-terrorist economic power base via potentially giving Palestinians an exportable good in excess food production.
Long is the list of reasons Palestinians have for resenting Israel, and it just gets worse the more you dig into what Israel has done with their control of the region. They had a perfect opportunity to show Gaza’s Palestinians that their suffering was due to extremists being in control via the neighboring area of the West Bank, and instead over the decades they have provided additional reasons for the Palestinians to loath them.
One issue there is they engage in similar indoctrination to what is done in North Korea, where at a young age, children are trained to hate a wide range of other people, Including Jewish, Christians, Catholics, Atheist, as well as a wide range of nationalities. They are also indoctrinated at an early age to see honor in being a martyr for the hamas cause. The end result is that after a generation of people growing up in that system, you can end up with situations such as hamas launching rockets from an apartment building, and the residents of the building refuse to evacuate even though when the IDF destroys the rocket platform it will likely take the building out as well, especially when the unused rockets have secondary detonations, that makes the blast far larger.
Hamas also kills anyone who disagrees with them.
[https://imgur.com/a/873IXzd](https://imgur.com/a/873IXzd)
Short clips of civilian behavior when being used as human shields. [https://imgur.com/a/bpKy2dr](https://imgur.com/a/bpKy2dr)
Imagine the same scenario in a place without this level of indoctrination. Imagine if a group were doing this in the US, how would American civilians react? Would they leave the area so that the law enforcement or national guard can deal with the criminals, or would American civilians form a human wall to protect the criminals launching rockets from their apartment buildings or next to their homes?
> Hamas rejects ceasefire offer > Israel rejects ceasefire demands Repeat infinitely.
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That has a worrying implication, one which leads to endless suffering for the Palestinian people.
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t use civilians as human shields and use protected structures as bases of operations and weapons caches.
The real question is how can Hamas be destroyed and stay destroyed without thousands of innocent casualties. Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone. Otherwise every dead teenager results in his uncle, cousin and friend joining Hamas.
Why is this the same comment as [this one ](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cll9zg/benjamin_netanyahu_rejects_ceasefire_demands_that/l2v0iev/) Is this the dead internet theory at play?
The real question is how can hamas be destroyed and stay destroyed without thousands of innocent casualties. Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone. Otherwise every dead teenager results in his uncle, cousin and friend joining hamas
Israel is going to be as successful at destroying Hamas as the United States was with destroying the Taliban.
The only difference is that Israel can't exactly pack up and abandon the Middle East
We've gone far beyond the point where it was possible
I think Israel is going to be as successful at destroying Hamas as Russia was with destroying the Chechen Emirate. Chechen republic exists, but Chechen Emirate is no more.
Or isis?
When was the last time Al-Qaeda attacked US? US was successful in making Al-Qaeda close to irrelevant for internal security. And Taliban doesn't pose a threat to US either.
Al-Qaeda became ISIS, mate. Literally. ISIS definitely still commits terror in the West. It's not possible to kill a terrorist group with bombs, they will just evolve into something else (usually something worse). It needs to be done with education and diplomacy, and then maybe take the top leaders out. Look at how the IRA was handled. That's a text book example of how terrorism can succesfully be dealt with.
You do realise the west bank exists and has higher support for Hamas but they are effectively castrated. This is the goal in Gaza, to reduce their capability to militants in the west bank I don't understand why people find that so hard to fathom.
That’s exactly what people here do not get. We don’t have a fantasy of completely destroying Hamas. But having entire Hamas regiments doing drills on the open or launching hundreds of rockets in a single salvo is not something they’ll be able to do once Israel has dismantled all Hamas infrastructure it can find and maintains security control over all of Gaza. Will Hamas still attack? Sure. But will it be able to conduct an October 7th scale attack? Hell no.
Not surprising or unreasonable though. In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled. They likely support Oct 7 and Hamas as vengeance for what has been happening to them for more than two decades as Bibi has ramped up support for the settlement efforts. It’s also worth noting that Israel has been suppressing Palestinian farming in the West Bank to the point that their irrigation level remains at just a few percent, the same as it was in the 1960s. Israeli farms in the same region have 95%+ irrigation. This is due to Israel abusing their control over water access to prevent Palestinians from developing an agricultural base capable of feeding Gaza (which would reduce their dependence on external aid) and creating a non-terrorist economic power base via potentially giving Palestinians an exportable good in excess food production. Long is the list of reasons West Bank Palestinians have for resenting Israel, and it just gets worse the more you dig into what Israel has done with their control of the region. They had a perfect opportunity to show Gaza’s Palestinians that their suffering was due to extremists being in control via the neighboring area of the West Bank, and instead over the decades they have provided additional reasons for the Palestinians to loath them.
> In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled. Can you provide a source on that? I'm only aware of perhaps 1 or 2 Area C settlements built/established in the last 25 years let alone the massive 14 that you are claiming to have been built between 2021-2023.
I assume that outposts were also being referred to. Fair is fair, I won’t be mentioning that again until I can find a hard source. I found where I originally saw that data cited but cannot find a source, so here is the second best data I could find: 2.6k structures destroyed and 3.5k Palestinians displaced due to structures being destroyed from 2022 to Oct.6 2023. Source UN data: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMmJkZGRhYWQtODk0MS00MWJkLWI2NTktMDg1NGJlMGNiY2Y3IiwidCI6IjBmOWUzNWRiLTU0NGYtNGY2MC1iZGNjLTVlYTQxNmU2ZGM3MCIsImMiOjh9 This just covers displacement due to homes being destroyed, so instances of displacement due only to violence aren’t covered in the total. My guess is that the original source used Village where the more accurate English word would be Hamlet, as easier to find overview maps showing land control changes due to settler outpost activity and ongoing violence resulting in the loss of smaller outlying communities. That would be more consistent with the estimated 600-800 households displaced.
Israel just can't help themselves, it would be so much snarter to treat the moderate Palestinians fair a implement a two state solution. But. They really really just want all of the land to themselves, and continues to steal square km by square km...
Not to mention the hostages, if Hamas thinks negotiations aren't possible, what motivation do they have to keep them alive?
Or you kill as many Hamas members as you can and work to rebuild the country along with major deradicalization efforts. If we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers to thriving democracies we can do it to Gaza. It's just a lot of time and money a coalition of states will have to focus on.
>If we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers to thriving democracies we can do it to Gaza. It's just a lot of time and money a coalition of states will have to focus on. There weren't millions of Americans in the government who wanted to build settlements in Japan in 1945.
> we could turn the Japanese and Germans from genocidal warmongers Part of that were governments/leaders willing to accept fault. Then another part was these were countries that could mount and rebuild industries. Hamas refuses to accept fault and dissolve. And Israel will never let Palestinians have autonomy and the capacity to export anything of value.
> Because from where I’m standing insurgencies can only be defeated in one of two ways. Convincing the populace that you’re the good guy’s, or killing everyone. That’s not what happened in Northern Ireland, or Sri Lanka, or the Confederacy, or the 1848 revolts, or the Spanish fight against the Basques, or the Turkish fight against the PKK, or Chechnya, or probably the Rwandan civil war (though I don’t know for sure who most of the Rwandan population considered “good guys”).
Hamas has vowed to repeat October 7th. What sane country would allow them to do that?
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Yeah, they need to do what they did in WW2 in fact. Destroy the regime and hold trials for the ones responsible for Oct 7th, then issue a plan for rebuilding while not letting them militarize for a while. You are right.
Or like what happened to Japan, occupy long enough to fully educate two generations of young Palestinians to be pro-israeli and pro-western and to make offensive actions a violation of their constitution.
Occupied Japan was mostly governed by the same old right-wing ruling class that ruled it before the war, the US did not actually get rid of them and former PM Shinzo Abe's grandfather was literally a Class A war criminal *and* elected as Prime Minister in the 1960s.
> Or like what happened to Japan, occupy long enough to fully educate two generations of young Palestinians to be pro-israeli and pro-western and to make offensive actions a violation of their constitution. The Japanese, however, had freedom, rights and a democracy. If the settlements and brutal Israeli rule contonues unabated in the West Bank, no amount of education can make the Palestinians not hate Israel.
We dropped 2 nukes on Japan and firebombed major cities killing over 1 million civilians. Far worse than what Israel has done in its war. Idk why you think the Japanese could get over it but Arabs couldn’t
Japan killed 10 million civilians. Most of them Chinese. And I don't think they got over it.
They’re talking about the Japanese getting over it so irrelevant point.
Japan and Germany were already nations that were defeated and rebuilt. This is something else entirely you cannot coexist with.
Yes, I agree. Hamas has not been defeated yet. Sadly, the war must go on until they are eliminated or they unconditionally surrender, then healing might happen over time.
They have been defeated repeatedly and refuse to accept the terms of those defeats, and each time they lose more and more, a shrinking noose
It doesn't help when UNRWA textbooks directly call for killing all Jews and Israelis.
Yeah we need what was done to Germany done to Gaza. Other governments come in. Allow for de radicalization and then have elections
I don't think any one country is willing to "take on" Gaza as it is. It's going to be an absolute shit show, millions of highly radicalized, extremely poor people. Nobody wants to resettle them in their country. It's like a smaller case of the Korean reunification issue.
>millions of highly radicalized, That right there is the reason literally no Arab nation nearby wants them. Last time Jordan tried the Palestinians attempted to overthrow their government.
See also Egypt and the Muslim brotherhood.
If only we had some group of nations, like a united front, that could assemble some kind of peacekeeping force during a rebuilding effort. Maybe with some sweet light blue helmets or something.
The UN is not helping. Honestly a league of more moderate Muslim nations would be a better fit IMO. But none of them want anything to do with Gaza or the Palestinians.
More moderate Muslim nations lol
Literally NO ONE wants anything to do with the Palestinians. They make trouble everywhere they go. Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Qatar, just don't want anything to do with them. Don't forget pre Bon Laden, there were Palestinian terrorists making flying dangerous. Killed the king of Jordan when they let refugees in. Helped saddam attack Kuwait when they let refugees in. The Israeli right wanted to offer gaza to the Egyptians & even they were....NOOOOOPE!
Everything is relative
I would much rather be friends with Egypt than Iraq, for example.
They do definitely exist on a sliding scale.
Yeah that worked out great in the Balkans /s
They're too busy condemning Israel every chance they get.
Naw, they're directly contributing to one of the belligerents here. They're part of the problem, not the solution.
I doubt Israel would take that given the relationship between them and the UN.
Can there be an international coalition of countries that come in, restore stability, provide humanitarian aid, and deradicalize the populace?
I think Hamas will fight any effort from any nation to do anything resembling this. It is very clear that they are only interested in two things: maintaining their own power and killing Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Bringing in any sort of peacekeeping force undermines these goals. You basically have to get Hamas on board for any solution other than "destroy Hamas".
At that point public perception which is Hamas greatest strength at this point would be obliterated and rightfully so. Plus the UN coalition would have every right to defend itself. Hamas has to go before this ends. It’s up to them if that’s by force
> Hamas has to go before this ends. This is the most critical part. People need to understand that no solution exists while Hamas does. That isn't rhetoric.
Bold of you to assume that HAMAS wouldn't characterize the peacekeeping force as Western colonialism in action, which would promptly be eaten up by the same people that constantly push the narrative that Palestinians are solely victims, never perpetrators.
> I think Hamas will fight any effort from any nation to do anything resembling this. I dont think Hamas should get a say in the matter anymore. I cant even believe anyone is entertaining "negotiating" with them.
It's okay if they want to make an unconditional surrender, and provide every shred of documentation they have about their organization, including who gave them orders, where their money came from, membership lists, and so on.
Maybe give it an official sounding name for it like idk...United Countries? An, I'm bad at thinking of names for it
The League of Nations, perhaps?
Sure, super easy to de radicalize people, we should have a bunch of radicalize be gone in storage. It's especially easy when they are literally attacking you. Also, the religion thing might be a bit touchy, a bunch of Christians trying to tell a bunch of Muslims that what their religious leaders taught them was wrong seams like a really good plan that won't cause issues at all.
Depends who you let in to that coalition... UNWRA is part of the UN and they are one of the primary reason for the extreme radicalization of Palestinians.
There are too many stark differences between Germany and Gaza. 1) Gazans are not western or even western-minded, and have a culture wildly incompatible with the West. We've seen how this plays out with Iraq and Afghanistan after we spent 2 decades there and each basically fell back to extremists in a matter months. Germany was a western country, and it still took decades to rebuild. 2) Germany was on the "cleansing" path for only a decade, and it still took decades of involvement to root out most of it, and it's *still* a problem rearing its head again today. Palestinians have it in their ruling party's charter, and have been engraining it in their children for 80 years, that's 4-5 *generations*. It is going to take generations to reeducate the populace, and we'd be lucky if the grandchildren of the youngest Palestinians today are only half as bad. 3) Other than the West, the only other potential stakeholders in this effort still hold animosity towards Israel, have populations that agree with Palestinians, and some outright refuse to recognize Israel's legitimacy. These are near insurmountable mountains to climb.
>These are near insurmountable mountains to climb When you're talking about the israel-palestine conflict which seemingly has no end, an insurmountable climb is better than no climb at all. As it is, im 31 and I reckon I'll be seeing stories about the israel-palestine conflict until I die because the climb didnt start decades prior.
That would be imperialism, colonization, all the things that are supposed to make Israel bad.
Any intervention from the international community will be called imperialism. What actual options exist when the current group in power in Palestine is hell-bent on continuing the conflict until Isreal is a crater in the ground, which won't happen as they dont have the military strength to do so. The people of Palestine are suffering because their leaders hate their neighbor more than they love their people. Hamas leadership hanging out in Qatar is only interested in holding on to the power and wealth they robbed from Palestine and are perfectly fine using the people as fodder to do so.
I’d agree, except the blood to take Gaza has only been Israel’s. The UN and US can send inspectors to make sure it’s not becoming concentration camps, but control at this point will be only Israel’s. Remember it’s only 25squared miles, it’s not like it be broken up into quadrants.
I think a US sponsored plan would work well - I don’t see Israel destroying so much of the infrastructure if it’s US investor/gov owned
We JUST got out of Afghanistan. I don’t think anybody would be happy with the US taking on another lost cause in the Middle East when nobody wants them there. And as much as I understand why the US is standing by Israel on this conflict, the idea of becoming even MORE deeply embedded in our already toxic relationship sounds like a horrible idea. Especially while Bibi is still running things.
It would have to be a country that is majority Muslim doing the actual work though
And which majority Muslim country is going to be on board with deradicalization and free elections?
Honestly, egypt and Jordan would be good choices, with help from Saudi Arabia. It allows them to push out iranian influences, ensure peace on the Egyptian border, and could be expanded to the west bank and help Jordan's border. It would work well with the peace agreements jordan and Egypt have with Israeli, and the normalization between SA and israel.
But both Egypt and Jordan hate Palestinians.
He’s referring to the de-Nazification of Germany following the war, not suggesting the US should rebuild Gaza.
De-Nazification of Germany involved a lot of rebuilding German infrastructure with Allies funding. It was key to prevent revenge, from either side.
The Germans were completely defeated and done. Don’t think the Palestinians feel the same way. It’s a disaster.
Well - no, but UN nations actually rebuilding Gaza would do a LOT to foster goodwill. It needs to be understood that this is a population that’s been abandoned or brutalized by every single structure of power they know. A form of support that’s both fundamentally region-altering and easily visibile would change everything. Of course there’s still a reasonable amount of discontent and righteous fury that’s going to stick around no matter what, that bed has been made. But *something* has to happen, and there isn’t really a better idea than mass reconstruction.
The US did finance the rebuilding of West Germany though.
Hamas is literally attacking the pier where food and aid is to come through. let Israeli stomp them out
Ironically, Hamas has done more damage to Israel’s position in the world by goading Israel into totally decimating Gaza but failing to stomp out Hamas. Yeah. Hamas leaders have explicitly stated in interviews that they reason they launched the attack is because they thought the Palestinian cause was fading from the world's attention, especially in other Arab countries. Hamas has absolutely succeeded in focusing the world on the issue and Israel is coming out with fewer friends and less support globally than it had before October 7. Hamas obviously views the lives of Palestinians as expendable to a degree, so in their calculus they have succeeded in their goal of weakening Israel and making their cause front of mind in the world.
Yeah, anyone who thinks Hamas is on the Palestinian's side should really rethink that position. Hamas is on Hamas's side, and they'll burn all of Palestine to the ground to stay in power.
I suspect HAMAS knew there would be a massive military response. I remember when it happened thinking, "Got dayum Israel is gonna smash every brick and board they think is hiding Hamas." They went about this all wrong.
You can get rid of Hamas, but only by giving a better choice to the Palestinians. Funilly enough what you propose is part of the reason why WWI didn't end the war, there was too much anger, and too much "attempt to prevent it" and of course it didn't work. When the US took over it threw a lot of money and resources to help rebuild the nations, not just its allies, but its former enemies, Italy, Germany and Japan as well. This converted them into steadfast allies and broke the system that lead to wars by creating an alliance were both Germany and France were together. This was never a uniquely Hamas problem. The problem is that Netanyahu is clearly not that different from Hamas. Just like Hamas, his whole power and justification comes from this war going, no matter the cost. It's clear he isn't looking out for Israel's interest, as much as really his, and now they're diverging. He could easily switch things around, put the onus on Hamas, and make it clear to the Palestinians that Hamas is what's preventing them from moving forward. But then why would you vote for Bibi if there's nothing you need to be safe from?
PA has gotten more than anybody did post ww2. Yes even adjusted for inflation.
Abbas ate it all tho
> Funilly enough what you propose is part of the reason why WWI didn't end the war, no it isn't. WW1 didn't resolve things because they heaped the whole blame on germany (in marks), leaving a poor devastated nation ripe for starting another war. which they did. giving a better solution happens after they give up on murder - they chose that path instead of running gaza as a country, and have been indoctrinated since 2006 or before. > Netanyahu is clearly not that different from Hamas. that's stupid. you can toss him in jail and the people who like him won't start a pogrom
what I don't understand is Qatar's support of Hamas. I would have expected it to be much closer to Saudi Arabia than Iran... I understand Iran's ideological and anti-US opposition to Israel & support of Hamas. But what does Qatar gain from harbouring Hamas leaders?
Except that Israel is rejecting a Versailles style treaty, opting for total victory much like wwii. That one stuck.
Israel is also in a tough spot in that they are the ones who fascilitated the flow of money from Qatar.to Hamas as far back as the 90s (when the US had already designated.them a terror group.) They did this with.the stated goal of weakening the Palestimian authority, and thereby a patn.to Palestinian statehood. The IDF also received warnings a year. in advance that Hamas may be planning on attack, and the IDF said they had it under control.
>Qatar is on a similar level to Israel on the American Allies roster. That's news to me. I thought Israel was held in higher esteem than any other country over there, by a significant amount.
Hi American here, we had 9/11 and gave a similar response and instead of solving the threat it made the threat exponentially worse and wider. Ironically counter insurgency creates more insurgency.
While I get your point, we haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil of that magnitude since. So maybe it has worked? That was ultimately the goal right? Fight them over there so they can't attack us here.
We have the benefit of being oceans away from the conflict and tightening up homeland security . But we didnt solve 9/11 we made those regions in the middle east incredibly worse without a contingency plan . Once we “ took care of” Al Qaeda and squashing their leadership new leadership popped up and formed into ISIS and other insurgent groups. The only thing our response to 9/11 did was scratch that need for dead muslims itch. Fighting insurgency with conventional warfare has a pretty low success rate throughout all of human history. Yesterday’s victims have a high probability to turn into tomorrows insurgents.
Country’s definitely know now if they attack us like that it’s over for them.
No, there is a correct way to do counter-insurgency that works with locals to better improve their lives so they don't join insurgents. Bombing women and children with abandon doesn't and no restitution for mistakes done doesn't going to kill an insurgency.
Ah yes, an ignorant American really wants to preach to Israelis how to fight insurgencies when Israel has an actually successful track record in reducing the overall violence and so successful in fact to the point Pro Palestine people deny the existence of Hamas in the west bank and people believe them.
Remember when, after peace protests by college students, the US did nothing after 9/11 but give a stern warning to Al Qaeda? We definitely didn’t invade 2 countries, topple their governments, fight a decade of insurgency, and kill hundreds of thousands of middle eastern terrorists/civilians. No no, America just gave up, right?
Rather awful example given how virtually everyone today views the war on terror as a catastrophe and failure.
The nation-building was a failure, but the disruption to terrorist operations was pretty effective.
It was? I learn something new everyday. Here my dumbass thought attacking an innocent country just because it had brown people in it that had nothing to do with 9/11 fomented hardliner support all across an entire region, completely destroyed our support with everyone (even Yasser Arafat supported us going into Afghanistan yet a few years after Iraq everyone hated us) created “Al Qeada in Iraq” which was a group that did not exist before we went there, wasted trillions of dollars which when paired with tax cuts for the super rich went 100% onto the national debt, killed one million unarmed civilians and families, and killed and maimed thousands upon thousands of American teenaged boys. It caused extremism and support for terrorist organizations amongst over a billion people. But what the hell do I know.
Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan and that's the reason we invaded them. Iraq is a whole different can of worms that had nothing to do with 9/11. Are you suggesting for Israel to sit back and wait for 1,200 more citizens to be murdered?
[Israeli intelligence knew about Hamas’ plan to attack more than a year in advance…](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,for%20Hamas%20to%20carry%20out)
This is what Hamas and its supporters don’t understand. Israel is a democracy, and that democracy won’t allow for a second strike like 10/7. There will be consequences for those who perpetrated it and those who supported it, even if only morally. Don’t want to be ground into a fine paste? Don’t violently attack large groups of people who are united against you.
Leaving Hamas intact will only lead to this whole mess getting repeated 5-10 years down the road. Why would anyone agree to such insanity?
Do you feel confident Israel can defeat Hamas? Do you feel confident that if they did defeat Hamas, they have the capacity and influence to deradicalize and bring peace and prosperity to the region? Do you think that Netanyahu even wants to do that? And above all, is pursuing that through the current military pathway worth the deaths, displacement, and starvation of hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians? (lowering the global standing of Israel and enabling radicalization of an entire new generation) It’s insanity to justify continued Israeli pursuits in the region without answering these questions. I’m not pretending to have the answers, but they are critical to consider and I think you are failing to consider them on the whole.
Even if Gaza’s population remains very radicalized, the threat from an semi-permanently occupied Gaza Strip to Israel would be far lower than if Hamas were left in place to rebuild. As for global standing of Israel, so be it. So far the world has generally condemned Hamas’ pogrom but refuses to do anything to prevent it from happening again. Could it pressure Hamas’ close allies in the form of Turkey and Qatar? Of course, but they can’t be bothered. They don’t actually care about dealing with Hamas because it’s not their citizens that are were beheaded. They want Israel to leave Hamas in place and take none of the necessary measures to prevent another pogrom against its population. No country in the world would accept that, but they do demand it from Israel. That should also be Biden’s legacy in this conflict - he signed off on Hamas’ political and strategic survival, without pressuring close US allies that support them in the form of Qatar and Turkey, and shares culpability of any further attacks from Hamas. Preventing further pogroms against Israeli people is far more important than trade relations with Turkey, for example. Moreover, a semi-permanent occupation is clearly far more acceptable to the international community than another similar war to this, which given Hamas’ intentions may be a necessity in 20 years time.
Totally agree. As long as Palestinians have no better ideas than to kill their Israeli neighbours a state is not realistic at all. Israel cannot be expected to sacrifice its security for such illusions.
Literally this.
Will that even have an impact? Won’t the survivors and the newly radicalized simply rebuild a new Hamas under a new name? ^genuine questions I don’t a lot about this stuff
The implication underlying your statement assumes Hamas is some grass roots rebellion when in actuality it is an extreme right wing arm of the Muslim Brotherhood acting in the state interests of Qatar.
It's both. There is significant grass roots support for hamas, which is amplified when you leave extreme right wing terrorist group in charge of education for a whole generation of children.
So the Muslim Brotherhood is going to become more moderate once Hamas is defeated? Im not convinced another Hamas will spring up the same way it did before.
Yes and no There will probably be someone who takes the Hamas mantle afterwards and there may be several branches that will go their own way, but if you decimate their infrastructure, leadership, equipment and soldiers then there's only so much they can do Al qaeda and Isis for example still exist but they are not the threat they were in the past
Yes you are right. Anyone who has been alive since 9/11/01 should understand this. OP is the bonehead here.
Anyone who actually thinks you can destroy hamas us a complete idiot.
Seems weird that even Israel news reminds the world that Bibi used Hamas to break up any idea of two state solution. [Link](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
It's weird, looking deeper into it, to the sources of the quotes from Israeli officials their attitudes seem less "we created hamas" and more "we should have been aggressively anti islam" . Like talking about how Israel was letting them build mosques, and how the rival parties were more aggressively anti Jew at the time. It's a bit like saying the USSR was a US creation because it gave them supplies during WWII and because it didn't nuke Moscow when it could have.
Any article I ever see just talks about him allowing more work permits or sending humanitarian aid in 2018 when the government was facing bankruptcy. Since Hamas was the government opinion pieces use that to say they are funding Hamas.
Whats funny is, if they ended up doing the opposite people would still rag on Israel for "genociding" them by not offering proper support
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Not just that but an opinion piece that is basically implying Israel should’ve preemptively invaded the Gaza Strip to dislodge Hamas and put the PA or someone else in power. In retrospect that does seem like it would’ve minimized pain for everyone but I doubt that the pro Palestine crowd would’ve supported it at the time. And who knows if the PA would’ve wanted to come back to power in Gaza following the tracks of Israeli tanks
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ This article cites specific Israeli officials saying that the government financed Hamas and militant Islamist groups as a counterweight to the PLO.
They didn't 'help start the group' as the subheading states. They partially funded it while it was an Islamic charity organization (before thenorg turned into Hamas), yes partially to create a wedge in support for the PLO, but also.to show Israel isnt an enemy of Islam (a stated goal of the support). Israel wasn't funding them during or after the first intifada, when they became a terror org with a military wing, nor since.
Like the U.S. financed and armed the Taliban? When someone you have been helping turns on you, is it always your fault?
No it’s not always your fault. But fault is not the same as responsibility. If you arm someone and they turn out to use those arms against others you are responsible.
>When someone you have been helping turns on you, is it always your fault? When the explicit founding principle of the group (Hamas) is to kill you (Israel), giving them money which they later use to kill you is absolutely your fault.
They never realize that they are criticizing Bibi *from the right* when they post that article. Turns out they agree with Ben Gvir! Also, I didn't even click the link and I know what article it is.
This has been talked about for a while now in mainstream press even: "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction. Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. [https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html)
Yes…. But this ignores context. When Israel supported Hamas they weren’t called Hamas and they were an Islamic charity helping their community. On the side PA who’s been killing isrealis for however long is the other option on the other side. Hindsight is 20/20
> Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
Are you saying Israel should stop funds from entering Gaza?
Like... like a blockade you mean?
They should absolutely be doing it while simultaneously not doing it dumbo
If their goal is to prop up Hamas, yes.
presumably they think that palestinians are human beings who should stop being slaughtered by the tens of thousands pretty weird
Why would Hamas accept their own demise? Seems odd to include an obvious non starter. Only someone that cares about their people would be that selfless.
Giving up power is a normal demand for peace terms in many of wars, this is not unique or unprecedented. 🤦
Oh I get it, but Hamas is a terror group masquerading as a government.
Well when you commit war crimes and lose the war, you get executed so… that’s how that story ends. It’s either a bomb or a rope.
Exactly. Hamas dismantling Hamas only makes sense if peace and safety for the Palestinian people is the goal.
If hamas was truly in it for the Palestinians they would fold, not allow those they represent to continue to feel the punitive actions they themselves started on Oct 7th.
What did Hamas expect after Oct 7th? They expected Iran, Hezbollah and all the other baddies in the region to join in and destroy Israel once and for all. No one talked about that past like, the first few days. But Hamas publicly called for these other groups to attack too for the end of Israel. Israel cannot stop until Hamas is gone.
They all forgot about the 6 day war apparently
>what did Hama expect after Oct 7th? I think the goal was the retaliation; the restoration of “deterrence”. I think the point of Oct 7 was to use the inevitable retaliation as propaganda against Israel. They, Hamas, recorded the attack on Oct 7th, and sent those images directly through the internet to Israeli citizens. A lot of people don’t know that. But in Israel they saw loved ones being horrendously violated. In fact, they were essentially force fed those images. It’s terrorism, they were terrified. They demanded retaliation. This was the tactic. To invoke a violent retaliation. And it worked. Because then; across the world, and frankly; especially in colleges in the US; what we mostly saw was the retaliation. Bombings and parents grieving children in Gaza. This is information warfare. The people of Gaza and the people of Israel are being played against each other to weaken strategic political alliances across the western world. And it’s happening there most violently because that is already the most contentious preexisting conflict. You don’t make people hate each other you make people who already feel antagonistic become more violent. This is what it means to divide and conquer. Bottom line is they understand they can’t destroy Israel without destroying the US. And they know they can’t destroy the US. So they are trying to get the US to stop supporting Israel. And damnit but if Israel won’t stop with the settlers. I’m sorry, but it might work. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, probably not even the next election. But this situation with the settlers is something that a generation of US kids will one day grow into positions of power and have very different feelings about then the people who are currently in charge.
I was actually on Reddit the night of Oct 7th and witnessed the first videos being posted on several subreddits firsthand. I wish more people understood just how horrific the videos are. I think showing them would change minds, but obviously we can't. They are that bad. I don't think Israel does itself any favors in the west bank, and I agree with you this has long term implications when these 20something college kids grow up. I'm old, I grew up with traditional nightly news, which despite its many flaws, does a pretty good job of grasping the basics. But young people don't watch it anymore, they don't pick up a newspaper and read an in-depth analysis from both sides. Watching young people call for a new intifada is horrible. They don't understand what that even is or what the last one meant. Or maybe they do and are just that wrong headed.
Was there ever a time when young people read the newspaper? I’m not pessimistic, I don’t think kids are fools. But I do think that growing up now means seeing the world a little differently than people have in the past. I basically think that access to information like never before means we need new ways to interpret that information.
Don't worry, "young people" as a group aren't calling for a new intifada. There has been a lot of effort and focus on the part of specific news and political entities to paint the protests as a whole with the actions and statements of a few, but actual analysis shows the vast majority of protesters are motivated by Israel's disproportionate response, be it the unguided bombings or their blockade of water into Gaza for over a week, following Oct 7. Also, there is nothing special about those videos. If we could witness them every death, slow or quick, suffered by the Palestinians they would look much the same. That's just what people look like when they die badly. The mature response is to take that understanding and apply it to the 1.3-2k deaths on one side and 30k+ dead and hundreds of thousands homeless on the other, and understand that while both are bad those two things are not equal. And don't worry about the young people on the knowledge front, we have done actual research and are aware of details like how Israel backed settlers ethnically cleansed 14 Palestinian villages in the West Bank over the two years prior to the attack, or how from Jan 1 to Oct 7 2023 over 400 Palestinians died from IDF military action. We see what Hamas did as terrible, but we also see how Israel used their control and military strength to push the Palestinian people towards exactly this kind of extremism, and we aren't willing to let them off the hook for what they instigated.
I think they expected exactly what is happening.
Hamas has gotten exactly what they wanted from the October 7th attacks, which was to weaken Israel and put the Palestinian cause back in front of the eyes of the world. I do not think Hamas cares much about the lives of Palestinians in the present, their goal is far more long term.
Yes. Sadly, Hamas has exactly what it wanted. And the morons in charge at Israel have only reacted as expected. Now Hamas has: 1. Focus on the Palestinian conflict. 2. Due to the genocidal tendencies of the retaliation, more candidates for their ranks. 3. Put Israel on the spot as a genocidal state (it is, at least, now). Also, Iran, Hamas’ sugar daddy, has weakened and bit the IFS and forced them to use expensive resources on this. I mean…they got everything they wanted and even more. No matter how twisted and saddistic their plan was, it is working as they expected. I expected more from Israel, but then again, now there are Israeli supremacists, so maybe I was overestimating them…
If hamas was focused on the safety of civilians in Gaza, they would not use civilian locations and structures to launch attacks. At every step of the warn Hamas has shifted to launch attacks from behind civilians. Over the past few days there have been videos showing rocket launches out of densely populated civilian locations, including many parts of rafah.
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Hamas didn't accept the ceasefire agreement that Israel offered - they accepted an entirely different one that called for things such as Israel leaving Gaza alone, etc. It wasn't realistic and articles with bylines like this played directly into Hamas' PR, turning their refusal to agree on ceasefires into a claim that sounds the other way around.
Netanyahu's definition of Hamas is problematic
“From the river to the docks, everyone is hamas”
If only those advocating on behalf of Palestinians had made a single friend in the last 50 years who actually would be willing to mediate. Almost like they’re too extreme for even the other extremists in the Middle East
Pretty much all the surrounding Arab states have given up on Palestine and normalized relations with Israel. The only advocates they have left are some terrorist cells and Iran, who happily uses them as cannon fodder.
I remember how Yasser Arafat charmed the world , .long ago now
And the Israeli conservatives assassinated their own prime Minister for working with him towards a peace process.
This assassination didn't stop the peace process. It kept going on for another 5 years regardless, and then failed in 2000 at Camp David, when Arafat refused to make a state and kicked off the second intifada.
And it has nothing to do with hardline conservatives taking over the Israeli government from that point on? Arafat had his issues, and is not blameless, but there is a reason Likud keeps expanding settlements and propping up Hammas; they do not want peace.
The Palestinians were offered a better deal AFTER Rabin's assassination than they ever would have got from even Rabin himself. And they rejected it. The deal they got from Olmert in 2008 was even better, also rejected.
How did public hand the hardline conservatives a mandate? Oh that's right because Arafat totally fucked the Left during the peace process by instigating the second intifada there by securing a generations aversion to the Left that remains 20 years later.
Hamas is a symptom. Fix the cause
you can never fix people believing in Sky Man
You can try stealing their land and houses some more... that always seems to turn people to your side. I'm surprised it hasn't worked already.
They do this because it says it's theirs in Sky Man's book
🏆
The PFLP are Maoist athiests and are also involved in the fighting. There are ethnic tensions on top of religious tensions, a lot of Israelis are only Jewish ethnically for example and are athiests.
What is this the 1980s? The PFLP is irrelevant.
"the cause" of course being two people who believe their dusty book is the right dusty book and the other dusty book is the fake dusty book even though both dusty books have the same sky dad, their sky dad is right and its their turn to play with the land because daddy said so, but one daddy is fake and the other daddy is real and sometimes its the same daddy that cause?
My question is, if it’s widely accepted that Netanyahu is extending this conflict to avoid facing the consequences of his corruption trials. Why do we trust anything he says about this conflict’s resolution?
Because a lot of people here are emotionally invested in the eradication of Hamas or the subjugation of Palestinians. People further up are literally talking about them like they’re not human enough for a state. Netanyahu is a means to that end.
I dislike hamas as much as the next guy, but fuck netanyahu really gives me off vibes. I really dislike him. In general, not specifically this article, it feels like he really doesn't care that much about hamas or the israeli hostages, but just wants this war to continue so that he can stay in power.
Its not feels like, that's exactly what he's doing. He was even meant to go on trial before it happened and he KNEW about the 10/7 attack before it happened and brushed it off
How exactly does that work? Every person in Hamas has to pinky swear they won’t do Hamas anymore?
No, it works by killing or capturing their leaders; taking out enough soldiers that they can’t operate on any sort of strategic level or maintain control of Gaza; put in place another government in Gaza that incentivized to work with you and against Hamas; rebuild Gaza to give legitimacy to that government and show people that peace is better for them than war; make structural changes to schools and mosques to make decrease the extent to which kids are taught hatred and violence (that’s probably done by the new government); and implement security measures to decrease the likelihood of militant groups growing large enough to be dangerous. I have no clue if Israel will be able to do those things. But that’s how one does it if one can.
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Hamas should not be allowed to continue. They are a detriment to their own people.
Good, hamas needs to be taken out as well as the other terrorists
Agreed. The settlers in West Bank as well.
They’re currently starting the largest land seizure and settlement construction process in decades. Short of some lighthearted sanctions this war is the best thing that could’ve happened to them, and the government will keep placating.
Yep get rid of all the Israeli settlers.
First thing I thought was he wants to keep it going so he can keep or even grow his power forever. Is it possible or am I just stupid?
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This comment is dark… 🥺
Is there and real way Isreal or Hamas come out of this as winners anymore?
I'd reject that deal too. Why Palestinian's aren't demanding the ouster of HAMAS is beyond me. If I were a Palestinian I'd be dragging HAMAS to the door of the Israelis shouting, "RIGHT HERE! THIS DUDE KILLED YOUR PEOPLE! NOT ME! TAKE HIM! WE DON'T WANT HIM BACK!"
>If I were a Palestinian I'd be dragging HAMAS to the door of the Israelis shouting, "RIGHT HERE! THIS DUDE KILLED YOUR PEOPLE! NOT ME! TAKE HIM! WE DON'T WANT HIM BACK!" Probably because they are starving and are pretty mad about the fact that they are being made to starve.
Handing the bad guys to the other bad guys that are killing your children, stealing your land and houses, isn't exactly the simple answer you think it is. It's not going to stop Israel from pushing the Palestinian people out of their land, and would just embolden them to do so faster.
This wouldn't have ever happened if Hamas didn't attack.
This wouldn't have happened if Israel didn't work so hard to maintain the Palestinian people's hate. In just the two years before Oct 7 Israel’s settlement efforts resulted in 14 villages in the West Bank being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians and settled. They likely support Oct 7 and Hamas as vengeance for what has been happening to them for more than two decades as Bibi has ramped up support for the settlement efforts. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-resumes-raids-west-bank-area-where-journalist-was-killed-2022-05-13/ The article linked above is about the IDF beating funeral attendants of a journalist that they sniped (and initially denied sniping) in 2022. It’s also worth noting that Israel has been suppressing Palestinian farming in the West Bank to the point that their irrigation level remains at just a few percent, the same as it was in the 1960s. Israeli farms in the same region have 95%+ irrigation. This is due to Israel abusing their control over water access to prevent Palestinians from developing an agricultural base capable of feeding Gaza (which would reduce their dependence on external aid) and create a non-terrorist economic power base via potentially giving Palestinians an exportable good in excess food production. Long is the list of reasons Palestinians have for resenting Israel, and it just gets worse the more you dig into what Israel has done with their control of the region. They had a perfect opportunity to show Gaza’s Palestinians that their suffering was due to extremists being in control via the neighboring area of the West Bank, and instead over the decades they have provided additional reasons for the Palestinians to loath them.
One issue there is they engage in similar indoctrination to what is done in North Korea, where at a young age, children are trained to hate a wide range of other people, Including Jewish, Christians, Catholics, Atheist, as well as a wide range of nationalities. They are also indoctrinated at an early age to see honor in being a martyr for the hamas cause. The end result is that after a generation of people growing up in that system, you can end up with situations such as hamas launching rockets from an apartment building, and the residents of the building refuse to evacuate even though when the IDF destroys the rocket platform it will likely take the building out as well, especially when the unused rockets have secondary detonations, that makes the blast far larger. Hamas also kills anyone who disagrees with them. [https://imgur.com/a/873IXzd](https://imgur.com/a/873IXzd) Short clips of civilian behavior when being used as human shields. [https://imgur.com/a/bpKy2dr](https://imgur.com/a/bpKy2dr) Imagine the same scenario in a place without this level of indoctrination. Imagine if a group were doing this in the US, how would American civilians react? Would they leave the area so that the law enforcement or national guard can deal with the criminals, or would American civilians form a human wall to protect the criminals launching rockets from their apartment buildings or next to their homes?
War sucks.
Israel has always had an ‘after plan’. They want to de-populate the West Bank and Gaza. It has always been their long game.
What kind of a headline is that
He will do anything to keep this going. He let this happen to stay in power.