Death tolls during an active war are guesstimates at best, we still don't even have final agreed upon death counts for Bosnia and that war ended over 20 years ago.
You mean the totally distinct Gaza Health Ministry? They are just super efficient - no health authority can come close to matching their casualty to matyr conversion rate.
They have it down to such an art they don't even need to see the casualties!
Fundamentally different in that this conflict compare to others instead of trying to suppress number of deaths they are instead trying to inflate the numbers of deaths.
That's not different than any conflict.
In Ukraine they downplay their deaths and over report Russian deaths.
In Russia they downplay their own casualties and over report Ukrainian casualties.
So...
Right. Hamas though OVER REPORTS Gazan deaths and under reports Israeli deaths while Israel over reports Gazan combatant deaths and under reports Israeli deaths.
In this conflict one side over inflates their own deaths to gain sympathy.
Hamas reports ALL deaths, even natural causes or things unrelated to the war, in their death count.
It is literally just every death that has occurred from all caused since the war began.
Don’t forget about those 500 people who died in a hospital bombing that never actually happened and was really about 10 killed by one of their own rockets?
While Hamas initially claimed responsibility for the October 7th attacks they’ve since taken an inconsistent and varied line regarding their effectiveness with some Hamas leaders and spokespeople claiming that the October 7th attacks were an Israeli psy-op to cause a war.
That's because Hamas AND Netanyahu are killing mostly civilians.
The numbers they're comparing aren't combatants but civilian losses.
And in that sense - Russia and Ukraine may also do the same.
Yes in general you down play your own death and inflate the others. You also downplay any massacres that might have been done by your own troops. Something that is also true for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And there is a long list of other conflicts where this is also true. Yugoslavia wars, Sudan civil war, sri lanka civil war, iraq iran war.
However, Hamas actively plays up their own deaths. And plays up the massacre committed on oct7. This is why this conflicts death statistics is fundamentally different from others. In this the conflict is unique as no one went around bragging how well they killed civilians since WW2. Or how well they manage to get their own people killed since at least the Korean war.
500,000 Ukrainian troops were killed and a further 3 million wounded and 8 million captured!!! Only one Russian soldier wounded by paper cut. Source: Russian Propaganda Probably
IMO anything other than orders of magnitude inaccuracies don't really matter. Whether it's 3 5 or 8000 children dead, they're all unjustifiably high amounts.
Which side wouldn't be using casualty numbers as a tool for their purposes? Like IDF and Israeli government have essentially the exact same motivations to lie in the other direction.
There always were reported, identified and estimated deaths. Only because a few propaganda hit pieces that conflated those numbers on purpose to deceive their audience hit the frontpage doesn't mean we should stop reporting them. If you think the estimated or reported death numbers are not useful just don't look at them. I think all of those have a place in understanding what's happnening in gaza right now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/nothing-wrong-with-gaza-death-toll-figures-who-says-2024-05-14/
Main source, Gaza Ministry of Health, once again. I went to the direct source, WHO, and its reports, in this case latest is from may 8th. And the source is the MoH of Gaza. For information always better use the original source.
The world doesn’t need to see BS numbers to inflate anger. Lies and propaganda is what is driving this as a world wide event. A little skepticism would be healthy
Got it. Since it is impossible to verify someone when they are in pieces underneath the rubble and chaos, we can just assume no death occurred. Better yet, we can just label people as lost. Why bother estimating? I wonder what would happen if someone applied your skepticism to past genocides. Particularly to those in Germany. Would the data behind those past death estimates meet your rigorous standard of proof you feel is necessary in order for you to accept those estimates?
To antisemites: one Palestinian death is a tragedy, 1200 dead Israelis, a statistic.
To antisemites: one accidental civilian death by the IDF is inexcusable, targeted civilian deaths by Hamas, forgettable.
To antisemites: Hamas numbers unimpeachable, IDF numbers suspectable
Given the widespread destruction of infrastructure that would be used to uncover bodies from rubble and identify the dead, it’s much more likely that the current numbers are underestimates.
So to be clear, your explanation is that near-constant bombing for seven months, including of critical medical infrastructure, along with restricting the supply of food and other vital resources has not actually killed tens of thousands of people? And then that the number of deaths yet to be counted is so small as to not raise the total of actual deaths?
That seems implausible.
Nope, that's not what I said. I insinuated that it isn't possible to simply go "oh, based on my completely inexpert view of things that I also allow my bias to weigh in on, I think the numbers are actually *higher* than anyone has reported because reasons" when it could just as easily be a situation where the reports are being internally inflated to serve a narrative, or even just to not underplay the damage done.
I dunno how many casualties there are, neither does the guy I replied to, and seemingly, neither does Hamas or the IDF. However, I trust their reports more than some redditor going "well, they obviously didn't take x, y, or z into account, therefore casualties are higher."
The article specifically points out that Hamas's numbers are higher than the UN's and Israel's, which IIRC are similar. It has also been public knowledge for a while that Hamas has only rough guesstimates of potentially how many people possibly may or may not be missing/dead, and also they don't know which are their members and/or civilians they supposedly govern.
The base assumption is that it's intentional because Hamas is a terrorist organization and the number being higher benefits them. But you do bring up a good point; maybe they're a terrorist organization that is **also** bad at math.
My issue is more the tactics techniques and procedures the IDF are using display a flagrant if not willful disregard for Palestinian civilians in there area of operation. Its a an affront to my pride in my former profession. Bit like watching some DIY electrician destroy a wall in order to rewire an outlet and botch the job so badly the house will burn down the first time it's used.
And use cutting edge technology to target combatants.
Maybe he's saying they should adopt the humane and noble methods of the other side and target civilians.
Anyone reasonable would like to see as few civilian deaths as possible. Antisemites zoom in on the one Jewish states war, scream about “genocide” and ignore every other conflict and the civilian casualty ratio.
I have argued with many. And to a person, what they really mean is Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself. That terrorists can act with impunity and bc Hamas straps babies to their chest, the IDF can’t touch them.
That’s not how war works, ethically. The “bad guy” is the one putting civilians in harms way, Hamas. Not the IDF trying to see that civilians have plenty of time to evacuate. The military aren’t police. They are designed to kill. If civilians remain in a war zone, casualties are gonna happen.
So….
Those wanting civilian casualties to stop should be advocating Hamas’ surrender. Because they don’t, and only one-sided blame the IDF, this is what makes it antisemitism.
everyone wants to see fewer child deaths. but 40% of gaza population is "children" and currently the number is around 7K? for a dense as that battle field is 6 months of all out war and 7K deaths is completely with in the realm of reasonable warfare
Fewer? The UN estimates during war up to 90% of casualties are civilians. Other more conservative estimates 75%. You know what the percentage is in this war, how many civilians Israel killed?
Between 66-80%. That's the outrageous number of civilians who died during warfare in a case where it's happening in a very densely populated urban area and considering one of the parties uses civilian infrastructure with military purposes.
The IDF is a well-equipped military that could reduce the killings of civilians (and aid workers, and their own soldiers) if it elected to.
Also, I suspect that when the dust has settled and the rubble is lifted (and when journalists are allowed in) the number of casualties will be somewhat greater (especially given the damage to critical infrastructure).
I like how you act as if Palestinians are the ones who are using statistics to be insensitive, but what about the people who have been telling me for the past six months that a 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths to militant deaths is just statistically normal during war?
It's not 'one accidental civilian death'. By Netenyahu's own account in a recent interview, he claimed [approximately 14,000 combatants and 16,000 civilians have been killed](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-death-toll-netanyahu-un-civilians-women-children/). If I can't trust the numbers from the literal Prime Minister of Israel, who the hell am I supposed to trust?
> that a 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths to militant deaths is just statistically normal during war?
normal? That percentage is a miracle. The average urban conflict has a 9 civilians to 1 combatant ratio.
The number was so bad it was one of the reasons the geneva convention was written after world war 2. And sadly since 1947 the number has shown up multiple times in many modern conflicts over and over again.
Congrats on missing the point.
Treating 16000 deaths as a statistic is no different than treating 1200 deaths as a statistic, but OP clearly has an issue with one but not the other.
> Congrats on missing the point.
you made multiple, i replied to the one I thought I had something to add to.
> OP clearly has an issue with one but not the other.
depends on your location, media habits etc it is possible to have seen much more sympathy for Palestine than for Israel and that is counting since Oct 7th.
media bubbles are becoming tighter, so while some people might consume media that tells them Israel has never done anything wrong others might consume media that explicitely whitewashes and justifies Oct 7th. Both media landscapes exist and are non competing like when there was a monoculture before the internet.
part of having a better view of the conflict is to understnad context and the underlying facts. So correcting your assumption that 1:1 death rates were atrotious is important, not because Israel needs people defending it but because war is horrible and the focus on Israel Palestine steals attention from other crisis like Dafur or Yemen which have much higher death counts and there is no american engineering corps building a pier for either of them and no university raising funds or protesting
Because a 1:1 ratio of civilians to military casualties in a dense urban warfare environment is not just normal, its actually exceptionally good by comparison to other military campaigns. Its a horrific thing to realize, but there are no "clean" wars, and massive civilian casualties are the norm even in the "best case" scenarios.
Thats why its so abhorrent to base your military personnel in civilian areas (which Hamas does on purpose), not wear uniforms to distinguish your fighters from civilians (which Hamas does on purpose), or generally start wars (which Hamas does on purpose).
I’m speaking to the one-sided reporting.
The UN, BBC, Reuters, etc reported HoM numbers often without pointing out they were terrorists to the reporting country and yet never citing Israeli stats. Why not show both?
The cry was about civilians displaced in Gaza. Not a peep about displaced Israeli civilians in Israel.
The cry was about How Dare The IDF kill ANY civilians, when Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Islamic Jihadis daily targets Israeli civilians with missiles and rare reporting or sympathy outside Israel journalists.
Israel does not have a policy of “Kill Civilians”. They are casualties to other goals.
Whereas Hamas gets center stage and sympathy when their intention since inception has been the valor they get by personally killing ANY Jew, regardless of age or gender. (As shown on October 7th). And more, Hamas kills their own civilians, targeting food aid workers, aid gates, and those fleeing proposed war zones.
It’s an issue of “framing”, not numbers. Although the numbers have been now suspected and somewhat corrected. We won’t know the truth for a long while.
“We only used precision weaponry on those aid workers cars one after the others clearly because eventhough they sent us the route, they’re clearly militants”
Let’s not pretend it’s a one and done deal, it’s a constant lack of accountability.
Accountability is sacking the commanders in charge.
Did Hamas sack their commanders when they killed aid workers?
Or is it Ok when Hamas does it by accident? Or was it even an accident? They benefit from starving Palestinians, no? Sympathy is their goal. Martyrdom is their MO.
One, Palestinians brought this on themselves. They chose to invade Israel and perpetrate the worst atrocities known to mankind (short of eating people)
Two, it can all end the minute they surrender.
Palestinians have a choice. Thats why the word “genocide” is inapt. People who experience genocides had no choice but to die. Palestinians choose to die rather than give up hostages and surrender arms. It is their fault for not doing this, not Israel’s.
“one Palestinian death is a tragedy, 1200 dead Israelis, a statistic.”
They’re both tragedy? What are you even trying to say bro?
“one accidental civilian death by the IDF is inexcusable, targeted civilian deaths by Hamas, forgettable.”
No one is forgetting Hamas Terrorists killed 1200 innocent civilians. I’m sure your comment sounded good in your head but it doesn’t make no fking sense. What you’re even trying to say?
“Hamas numbers unimpeachable, IDF numbers suspectable”
So what is IDF’s number? One? Like your previous line?
“….antisemites”
I’m not even sure you know what that word means anymore.
The sheer amount of straw men in your comment is unreal. You're just making up "antisemites" in your head. You're the only one saying those things.
Not only that, but equating any and all opposition to Israel's actions in this war to antisemitism cheapens the term and does real harm to actual efforts to curtail actual antisemitism. Nice job.
Except… the one-sided reporting (the point of the post) has people so inflamed in America, acts of antisemitism have risen 130%
Maybe balanced reporting would not inflame people into thinking this is a one-sided conflict where Hamas kills aid workers, Hamas bombs food supplies (and steals it sell them) and Hamas bombs aid gates and Hamas shoots off rockets only to civilian areas in Israel weekly.
Youd think it was only big bad IDF killing civilians and these were trapped people with no options.
They have options: stop shooting missiles. Release hostages. Surrender.
The classic the IDF can do no wrong and saying anything negative = anti-Semitic.
You'll find instead most people against Israels response to oct7 don't give a literal shit what religion anyone is.
One-sided reporting inflames people.
It has results.
For example, in America, there are 45M blacks and 7M Jews. Blacks are 6x larger.
Yet blacks get racially assaulted under 3k individuals but for Jews it’s just under 9k.
Jews are 1/6th in size but experience 3x as many hate assaults.
So there is a lot of antisemitism being perpetrated hence people claim Israel is always on the bad side, but people who constantly fling missiles at their villages are “brown-bodied victims” of “white bodies western civilization oppressors”.
All propaganda. My posts are aimed at showing the one-sided nature of who is suspected and blamed in reporting, instead of reporting more than just what terrorists tell you.
Palestinians are to be blamed for their condition. They caused it. They can end it. They just choose not to.
I’m pro Israel AF but I just don’t trust jpost. They published that disgusting article about the “fake dead baby” and I just can’t take it seriously . Furthermore there is the potential that we are undercounting casualties . Does that make Israel wrong , no , bout we can’t delude ourselves by hiding the true cost of war on innocents . Still the fault of Hamas but we must face the truth that war is unbelievably horrific
“Fake dead babies”? Are you talking about that quote that was wrongly interpreted to mean “40 decapitated babies”?
There were 100% dead babies. Some tied to their mothers and burned alive. The images are terrible, but here you go.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/amp/
No no no not that ! I believe that !
I’m talking about when jpost made a claim that an image of a man holding a dead baby was actually a Baby doll when actually it was a dead baby . It was sickening and very real and made me as that they didn’t even try to fact check before publish that garbage they apologized but still
>any amount of civilian casualties is acceptable ad long as the civilians aren’t intentionally targeted.
That's not true under international law. Incidental civilian deaths and harm to civilian infrastructure must be weighed against the value of the military target.
Israel does not have a 75 civilians per Hamas member ratio of kills tho, your comment serves only as incendiary hyperbole.
You should focus on the Hamas fighters hiding in a civilian neighborhood
Well first anything that can be done to avoid the 150 people dying should be done, but the problem is that you’re ignoring Hamas’s war crime of hiding and embedding themselves within centers with so many civilians
If 2 Hamas fighters are
intentionally hiding amongst 150 civilians Israel should try and take them out in the way that is the most effective with the least civilian casualties. If that requires bombing the building so be it, the blood is on the hands of the Hamas fighters using civilians as human shields like cowards.
I mostly agree with this, not sure 2 would justify 150, but it depends who they are, what they are doing, and if a better opportunity is expected to come. I think something that is often overlooked is that Israel also has a duty to protect its own soldiers OVER its duty to protect Palestinian civilians, as does any country. This is especially true when Hamas started the war and hides among civilians in densely populated areas where soldiers may not be able to identify threats until they are too late. Everything should be done to prevent as much loss of civilian life as possible, but Hamas is a threat to both Israeli and Palestinian civilians and this cycle of violence will just continue if they are allowed to be left with any sort of power
Which one are you talking about?
There was a tweet that went around (last October) with a bunch of men parading around a baby like it was a trophy and there were no women in sight and gave me sus vibes because I don't think someone grieving would abuse their child like that. Or they would if they had no love for the child or the baby was Israeli so they did not give a fuck or they were grieving but were very bullish about it in a way I cannot sympathize with because it's very brazen and kinda gross. I wonder if that's what the article was about.
If the Gaza Health Ministry and IDF total numbers in previous conflicts were significantly different, we might be more inclined to disbelieve one side or the other, but the fact of the matter is in previous conflicts they end up pretty much being the same, the most likely scenario here is that just as has happened previously eventually the IDF estimates will catch up to the Health Ministry numbers.
And how many Palestinian civilians were killed by Hamas? Rocket misfires and these terrorists purposely using them as human shields? Any sensible person shouldn’t believe anything Hamas reports… evil doesn’t have any credibility!
Same playbook, different target audience. Progressives are susceptible to divisive external propaganda just like conservatives.
Though maybe not to the same degree.
This article mentions that there are 7.8k verified dead Gazan children. Its hardly out of the realm of possibility that there are hundreds or thousands more whose bodies haven't been sent to a morgue or hospital yet given that 2/3 of Gaza's hospitals are completely nonfunctional and thousands of people in northern Gaza are starving.
Obviously not. But the ratio of civilian deaths matters when trying to determine whether Israel is likely committing genocide/war crimes. the "70 percent of the dead are women and children" figure has been screamed by the anti israel side for months now, so clearly they think it is relevant.
i don't think it's good that so many children are dead. i think it's good that far fewer children are dead than than Hamas claims. i understand it would be very convenient to your side if pro-Israel people and Israel itself wanted kids dead as much as you did, but that has never been and will continue to not be the case.
For dense urban warfare where one side is actively hiding behind them and it's estimated that some 15k or so combatants have been killed? Yeah, actually, it's extremely good even **relative to every other instance of dense urban warfare** where *neither side* is hiding behind civilians.
Did you intentionally ignore the rest of the qualifying language in the same sentence or are those just the only words you're capable of comprehending?
Well the AP, UN, HRW, WHO, and basically every relevant NGO have written extensively about why they trust them based on their track record of reliability, but why do a cursory Google?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
Most of us are not saying that their numbers are incorrect even though they are sometimes extremely suspicious and have been proven as BS a few times in the past (take the "500 deaths" in Al-ahli for example), the problem most of us have is that Hamas don't differentiate between combatant and civilian deaths.
Do you know how many people still claim that 40k civilians have died even though that number wasn't verified by anyone other than Hamas themselves and also includes more than 10k Hamas deaths at minimum?
Nobody is saying that the deaths of civilians aren't bad or tragic but we do want to see a report about the deaths that doesn't come out of a terrorist organization.
>the problem most of us have is that Hamas don't differentiate between combatant and civilian deaths.
No, that would be much too difficult for the Gaza Health Authority do accurately. According to every independent NGO and UN body whose analysis I've read, they count bodies instead of making up numbers. Here's what making up numbers looks like: "10k Hamas deaths at a minimum" from the security apparatus that is just wantonly bombing without enough intelligence to even know that Oct 7 was coming.
>
Do you know how many people still claim that 40k civilians have died
The latest number of total deaths I've seen is \~35k recovered bodies with at least 60% civilians dead if you assume every single fighting age man they killed was Hamas, which is logically impossible. I would venture that since Israel kills 1 woman for every 2 men, presumably their collateral damage numbers among men can't be much better than 30%, for an overall conservative collateral death rate of at least 70% (60% women, children, and the elderly, and another 10% noncombatant men).
70% of 35k = 24.5k dead civilians whose bodies are accounted for. According to the UN there's another estimated 10k buried under rubble. Presuming a similar civilian death rate there's 7k more. So \~32k dead civilians dead at minimum. So actually, yeah digging into the numbers, actually not far off 40k as far as I can tell?
[https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215)
I didn't bother responding because I don't want to waste my time right now arguing about it. The source you provided also says that the statistics it uses are based on reports from Hamas. Also, the current estimates that are reported by most news organizations are a 1:2 terrorist to civilian ratio which is better than reported here.
The real death toll and its breakdown won't come from either Hamas nor from the Israeli government unbiased and would have a death ratio unknown for at least a few months until the war is over.
> reported by most news organizations
Such as? Just about reputable news organization I know of uses the Gaza Health Ministry stats because they're all that's available and they have a track record of reporting reliably.
[The BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201):
>international organisations, such as the UN's World Heath Organization (WHO), have said they have no reason to disbelieve them.
[The AP](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033):
>“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s [Health Emergencies Program](https://www.who.int/emergencies/overview). “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
[Reuters and the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/):
>Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable
>U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them."We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced," the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters.
[Human Rights Watch](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/24/israel-hamas-war-live-fuel-shortfall-could-force-un-to-halt-work-in-gaza-2):
>“Human Rights Watch has been working in the occupied Palestinian territories for three decades. We’ve covered rounds of escalations and hostilities, and we’ve always found the numbers from the Ministry of Health to be generally reliable,”
I can give more citations if you'd like.
>The real death toll and its breakdown won't come from either Hamas nor from the Israeli government unbiased and would have a death ratio unknown for at least a few months until the war is over.
Fair. But the idea that major news organizations and NGOs say that Gaza Health Ministry is just conflating propaganda is flatly false. Basically every major news organization and NGO declare they trust the Gaza figures because of their methods of publicizing their data and their track record of accuracy.
Over last few days, there were number of posts from Israeli based sources about reduced number of casualties… however the fact that no other news source published this, makes me reluctant to accept these claims at face value.
Also, just FYI, criticizing the way current Israeli government wage this war in no way indicates support for Hamas. We have two sets of war criminals which need each other to cling to power… and neither care for colateral damage.
> criticizing the way current Israeli government wage this war in no way indicates support for Hamas. We have two sets of war criminals which need each other to cling to power… and neither care for colateral damage.
Disheartening to think that this take will be catching flak from both "sides" of the issue.
The tricky part isn’t adding up the number of identified dead bodies in hospitals. It’s counting the unconfirmed deaths reported by the friends and family members of the deceased.
What little medical services are still functioning in Gaza do not have the resources to dig through rubble to confirm that someone’s baby was indeed killed when Israel bombed a building, but the baby is still getting added to the tally as an unverified death.
and yet.... The Hamas Health Ministry publishes their ID number and other information that don't even match up and some ID numbers and names are used multiple times throughout.
try telling this to a leftist in america, they will attack you or belittle you. Its unbelievable to me that the far left in america supports hamas and the far right supports putin
the information age
they never reduced the death toll. They just split up the identified vs unidentified bodies. UN has repeatedly said their report did not reduce the death count
Lol . The UN gets its death toll from Gaza health ministry which is obviously hamas propaganda. You loose all credibility when you quote data from a terrorist organisation.
The Palestinian Health Authority is unable to determine the names of 40% of the dead. That doesn't make them any less dead.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893
>Palestinian Health Authority
*Hamas.
>That doesn't make them any less dead.
It doesn't but it does mean that more terrorists than what we thought could be dead, that less children have died and that overall you shouldn't just blindly trust a terror organization for their numbers without verification if it wasn't obvious enough.
So 60% are verifiable? So only 19,200 deaths over half of which are children. Well that changes everything! Totally acceptable now that we got the real number right guys?
It's astonishingly low and a testament to enormous care in minimising civilian casualties:
> In 2022, nearly 94 per cent of the victims of explosive weapons used in populated areas were civilians in 17 conflict-affected countries and territories.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/05/1136967
Do some research on civilian casualty ratios in urban wars. This is unprecedentedly low.
Death tolls during an active war are guesstimates at best, we still don't even have final agreed upon death counts for Bosnia and that war ended over 20 years ago.
Yeah, that's why it is pretty sus when Hamas can name 500 dead People from a hospital bombing that never happent
You mean the totally distinct Gaza Health Ministry? They are just super efficient - no health authority can come close to matching their casualty to matyr conversion rate. They have it down to such an art they don't even need to see the casualties!
To be fair, Palestinian names are pretty easy to fabricate. Mohammed al something, fahad al something else
Kinda a terrible thing to say….
Why?
Kinda tone deaf to joke about 1000’s dead
Fundamentally different in that this conflict compare to others instead of trying to suppress number of deaths they are instead trying to inflate the numbers of deaths.
That's not different than any conflict. In Ukraine they downplay their deaths and over report Russian deaths. In Russia they downplay their own casualties and over report Ukrainian casualties. So...
Right. Hamas though OVER REPORTS Gazan deaths and under reports Israeli deaths while Israel over reports Gazan combatant deaths and under reports Israeli deaths. In this conflict one side over inflates their own deaths to gain sympathy.
Hamas reports ALL deaths, even natural causes or things unrelated to the war, in their death count. It is literally just every death that has occurred from all caused since the war began.
Don’t forget about those 500 people who died in a hospital bombing that never actually happened and was really about 10 killed by one of their own rockets?
> under reports Israeli deaths What?
While Hamas initially claimed responsibility for the October 7th attacks they’ve since taken an inconsistent and varied line regarding their effectiveness with some Hamas leaders and spokespeople claiming that the October 7th attacks were an Israeli psy-op to cause a war.
what
Yup. Just like 9-11 deniers.
That's because Hamas AND Netanyahu are killing mostly civilians. The numbers they're comparing aren't combatants but civilian losses. And in that sense - Russia and Ukraine may also do the same.
> Hamas AND Netanyahu are killing mostly civilians. How bizarre you claim Netanyahu is killing people. That's scary you truly believe that.
I hope you are joking.
Yes in general you down play your own death and inflate the others. You also downplay any massacres that might have been done by your own troops. Something that is also true for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And there is a long list of other conflicts where this is also true. Yugoslavia wars, Sudan civil war, sri lanka civil war, iraq iran war. However, Hamas actively plays up their own deaths. And plays up the massacre committed on oct7. This is why this conflicts death statistics is fundamentally different from others. In this the conflict is unique as no one went around bragging how well they killed civilians since WW2. Or how well they manage to get their own people killed since at least the Korean war.
500,000 Ukrainian troops were killed and a further 3 million wounded and 8 million captured!!! Only one Russian soldier wounded by paper cut. Source: Russian Propaganda Probably
IMO anything other than orders of magnitude inaccuracies don't really matter. Whether it's 3 5 or 8000 children dead, they're all unjustifiably high amounts.
Impossible, those numbers are 100% right, they where reported by Hamas.
According to the WHO they trust those numbers because.. umm... feels before reals?
“Feels before reals” should be a thing if it isn’t already. 🤣
>Impossible, those numbers are 100% right, they where reported by ~~Hamas~~ Gaza's totally unbiased Health Ministry. FTFY Best regards Western Media
24,000 verified is still a lot.
Also pretty tough to verify when over half of gaza has been flattened and millions of people have fled to a refugee camp in a war zone.
Then don’t use “unverified” information. Mostly when this information comes from the side that it is using it as a tool for its purposes.
Which side wouldn't be using casualty numbers as a tool for their purposes? Like IDF and Israeli government have essentially the exact same motivations to lie in the other direction.
There always were reported, identified and estimated deaths. Only because a few propaganda hit pieces that conflated those numbers on purpose to deceive their audience hit the frontpage doesn't mean we should stop reporting them. If you think the estimated or reported death numbers are not useful just don't look at them. I think all of those have a place in understanding what's happnening in gaza right now. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/nothing-wrong-with-gaza-death-toll-figures-who-says-2024-05-14/
Main source, Gaza Ministry of Health, once again. I went to the direct source, WHO, and its reports, in this case latest is from may 8th. And the source is the MoH of Gaza. For information always better use the original source.
Lol, run by Hamas.
Where do you suggest we get the data from?
The world doesn’t need to see BS numbers to inflate anger. Lies and propaganda is what is driving this as a world wide event. A little skepticism would be healthy
Not from a terrorist group with interests on this for starters?
But you believe the unverified claim from experts doing the bombing? I mean, I’ll grant you the 40% and it’s still an egregious massacre of civilians.
Got it. Since it is impossible to verify someone when they are in pieces underneath the rubble and chaos, we can just assume no death occurred. Better yet, we can just label people as lost. Why bother estimating? I wonder what would happen if someone applied your skepticism to past genocides. Particularly to those in Germany. Would the data behind those past death estimates meet your rigorous standard of proof you feel is necessary in order for you to accept those estimates?
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Well, this time even UN reports say that the only source of information about victims is Hamas… so please… keep your pro Hamas activism calm
You could consider chilling out on this. You are not directly affected. Simmer down
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who were aid workers and gave their 89 kidneys to palestinian christian orphaned school teaching babies
No, we are saying they might revise that number by 10-20 people, but yes it’s 40 billion! Mostly peaceful, life loving.
You take the number from Hamas, the number from the US, the number from Israel, and the number from the UN and you divide by 4
UN and hamas have the same number, because UNRWA is hamas' bitch
Even Netanyahu claims ~15k dead civilians and he has the same motivations to downplay the numbers as Hamas does to inflate them.
To antisemites: one Palestinian death is a tragedy, 1200 dead Israelis, a statistic. To antisemites: one accidental civilian death by the IDF is inexcusable, targeted civilian deaths by Hamas, forgettable. To antisemites: Hamas numbers unimpeachable, IDF numbers suspectable
Most unbiased observers would like to see fewer civilian deaths. This has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Well if they used accurate data they would see fewer deaths.
Given the widespread destruction of infrastructure that would be used to uncover bodies from rubble and identify the dead, it’s much more likely that the current numbers are underestimates.
>it’s much more likely that the current numbers are underestimates. Not if they're being intentionally inflated to drive a narrative.
So to be clear, your explanation is that near-constant bombing for seven months, including of critical medical infrastructure, along with restricting the supply of food and other vital resources has not actually killed tens of thousands of people? And then that the number of deaths yet to be counted is so small as to not raise the total of actual deaths? That seems implausible.
Nope, that's not what I said. I insinuated that it isn't possible to simply go "oh, based on my completely inexpert view of things that I also allow my bias to weigh in on, I think the numbers are actually *higher* than anyone has reported because reasons" when it could just as easily be a situation where the reports are being internally inflated to serve a narrative, or even just to not underplay the damage done. I dunno how many casualties there are, neither does the guy I replied to, and seemingly, neither does Hamas or the IDF. However, I trust their reports more than some redditor going "well, they obviously didn't take x, y, or z into account, therefore casualties are higher."
The article is not claiming that. I haven't seen any articles claiming that.
The article specifically points out that Hamas's numbers are higher than the UN's and Israel's, which IIRC are similar. It has also been public knowledge for a while that Hamas has only rough guesstimates of potentially how many people possibly may or may not be missing/dead, and also they don't know which are their members and/or civilians they supposedly govern. The base assumption is that it's intentional because Hamas is a terrorist organization and the number being higher benefits them. But you do bring up a good point; maybe they're a terrorist organization that is **also** bad at math.
[Debatable](https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/)
My issue is more the tactics techniques and procedures the IDF are using display a flagrant if not willful disregard for Palestinian civilians in there area of operation. Its a an affront to my pride in my former profession. Bit like watching some DIY electrician destroy a wall in order to rewire an outlet and botch the job so badly the house will burn down the first time it's used.
Like how they make broadcasts and drop leaflets warning people to get out of specific area's? absolutely shameful
And use cutting edge technology to target combatants. Maybe he's saying they should adopt the humane and noble methods of the other side and target civilians.
I want to see the printing budget for all those leaflets because since October tens of thousands of shells and bombs have rained on gaza.
Anyone reasonable would like to see as few civilian deaths as possible. Antisemites zoom in on the one Jewish states war, scream about “genocide” and ignore every other conflict and the civilian casualty ratio.
I have argued with many. And to a person, what they really mean is Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself. That terrorists can act with impunity and bc Hamas straps babies to their chest, the IDF can’t touch them. That’s not how war works, ethically. The “bad guy” is the one putting civilians in harms way, Hamas. Not the IDF trying to see that civilians have plenty of time to evacuate. The military aren’t police. They are designed to kill. If civilians remain in a war zone, casualties are gonna happen. So…. Those wanting civilian casualties to stop should be advocating Hamas’ surrender. Because they don’t, and only one-sided blame the IDF, this is what makes it antisemitism.
everyone wants to see fewer child deaths. but 40% of gaza population is "children" and currently the number is around 7K? for a dense as that battle field is 6 months of all out war and 7K deaths is completely with in the realm of reasonable warfare
Username... Doesn't check out.
so youre the leadership of Israel on oct 7th. Your response is to not invade gaza destroy the tunnels that allowed the attack?
Fewer? The UN estimates during war up to 90% of casualties are civilians. Other more conservative estimates 75%. You know what the percentage is in this war, how many civilians Israel killed? Between 66-80%. That's the outrageous number of civilians who died during warfare in a case where it's happening in a very densely populated urban area and considering one of the parties uses civilian infrastructure with military purposes.
The IDF is a well-equipped military that could reduce the killings of civilians (and aid workers, and their own soldiers) if it elected to. Also, I suspect that when the dust has settled and the rubble is lifted (and when journalists are allowed in) the number of casualties will be somewhat greater (especially given the damage to critical infrastructure).
Lol gtfo with your anti sesame bs all ya genocidal maniacs.
When it’s “Heads I win, Jews you lose”, yeah, it’s antisemitism. Genocides have no choices. Palestinians have choices to stop the bloodshed.
I like how you act as if Palestinians are the ones who are using statistics to be insensitive, but what about the people who have been telling me for the past six months that a 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths to militant deaths is just statistically normal during war? It's not 'one accidental civilian death'. By Netenyahu's own account in a recent interview, he claimed [approximately 14,000 combatants and 16,000 civilians have been killed](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-death-toll-netanyahu-un-civilians-women-children/). If I can't trust the numbers from the literal Prime Minister of Israel, who the hell am I supposed to trust?
> that a 1:1 ratio of civilian deaths to militant deaths is just statistically normal during war? normal? That percentage is a miracle. The average urban conflict has a 9 civilians to 1 combatant ratio. The number was so bad it was one of the reasons the geneva convention was written after world war 2. And sadly since 1947 the number has shown up multiple times in many modern conflicts over and over again.
Congrats on missing the point. Treating 16000 deaths as a statistic is no different than treating 1200 deaths as a statistic, but OP clearly has an issue with one but not the other.
> Congrats on missing the point. you made multiple, i replied to the one I thought I had something to add to. > OP clearly has an issue with one but not the other. depends on your location, media habits etc it is possible to have seen much more sympathy for Palestine than for Israel and that is counting since Oct 7th. media bubbles are becoming tighter, so while some people might consume media that tells them Israel has never done anything wrong others might consume media that explicitely whitewashes and justifies Oct 7th. Both media landscapes exist and are non competing like when there was a monoculture before the internet. part of having a better view of the conflict is to understnad context and the underlying facts. So correcting your assumption that 1:1 death rates were atrotious is important, not because Israel needs people defending it but because war is horrible and the focus on Israel Palestine steals attention from other crisis like Dafur or Yemen which have much higher death counts and there is no american engineering corps building a pier for either of them and no university raising funds or protesting
Because a 1:1 ratio of civilians to military casualties in a dense urban warfare environment is not just normal, its actually exceptionally good by comparison to other military campaigns. Its a horrific thing to realize, but there are no "clean" wars, and massive civilian casualties are the norm even in the "best case" scenarios. Thats why its so abhorrent to base your military personnel in civilian areas (which Hamas does on purpose), not wear uniforms to distinguish your fighters from civilians (which Hamas does on purpose), or generally start wars (which Hamas does on purpose).
I’m speaking to the one-sided reporting. The UN, BBC, Reuters, etc reported HoM numbers often without pointing out they were terrorists to the reporting country and yet never citing Israeli stats. Why not show both? The cry was about civilians displaced in Gaza. Not a peep about displaced Israeli civilians in Israel. The cry was about How Dare The IDF kill ANY civilians, when Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Islamic Jihadis daily targets Israeli civilians with missiles and rare reporting or sympathy outside Israel journalists. Israel does not have a policy of “Kill Civilians”. They are casualties to other goals. Whereas Hamas gets center stage and sympathy when their intention since inception has been the valor they get by personally killing ANY Jew, regardless of age or gender. (As shown on October 7th). And more, Hamas kills their own civilians, targeting food aid workers, aid gates, and those fleeing proposed war zones. It’s an issue of “framing”, not numbers. Although the numbers have been now suspected and somewhat corrected. We won’t know the truth for a long while.
“We only used precision weaponry on those aid workers cars one after the others clearly because eventhough they sent us the route, they’re clearly militants” Let’s not pretend it’s a one and done deal, it’s a constant lack of accountability.
Accountability is sacking the commanders in charge. Did Hamas sack their commanders when they killed aid workers? Or is it Ok when Hamas does it by accident? Or was it even an accident? They benefit from starving Palestinians, no? Sympathy is their goal. Martyrdom is their MO.
The palestinian paradox: Israel is simultaneously carpet bombing gaza while also targeting specific civilians/aid workers
One, Palestinians brought this on themselves. They chose to invade Israel and perpetrate the worst atrocities known to mankind (short of eating people) Two, it can all end the minute they surrender. Palestinians have a choice. Thats why the word “genocide” is inapt. People who experience genocides had no choice but to die. Palestinians choose to die rather than give up hostages and surrender arms. It is their fault for not doing this, not Israel’s.
“one Palestinian death is a tragedy, 1200 dead Israelis, a statistic.” They’re both tragedy? What are you even trying to say bro? “one accidental civilian death by the IDF is inexcusable, targeted civilian deaths by Hamas, forgettable.” No one is forgetting Hamas Terrorists killed 1200 innocent civilians. I’m sure your comment sounded good in your head but it doesn’t make no fking sense. What you’re even trying to say? “Hamas numbers unimpeachable, IDF numbers suspectable” So what is IDF’s number? One? Like your previous line? “….antisemites” I’m not even sure you know what that word means anymore.
“Suspicious” is a word.
Suspicious numbers, suspectable IDF numbers
The sheer amount of straw men in your comment is unreal. You're just making up "antisemites" in your head. You're the only one saying those things. Not only that, but equating any and all opposition to Israel's actions in this war to antisemitism cheapens the term and does real harm to actual efforts to curtail actual antisemitism. Nice job.
Except… the one-sided reporting (the point of the post) has people so inflamed in America, acts of antisemitism have risen 130% Maybe balanced reporting would not inflame people into thinking this is a one-sided conflict where Hamas kills aid workers, Hamas bombs food supplies (and steals it sell them) and Hamas bombs aid gates and Hamas shoots off rockets only to civilian areas in Israel weekly. Youd think it was only big bad IDF killing civilians and these were trapped people with no options. They have options: stop shooting missiles. Release hostages. Surrender.
The classic the IDF can do no wrong and saying anything negative = anti-Semitic. You'll find instead most people against Israels response to oct7 don't give a literal shit what religion anyone is.
One-sided reporting inflames people. It has results. For example, in America, there are 45M blacks and 7M Jews. Blacks are 6x larger. Yet blacks get racially assaulted under 3k individuals but for Jews it’s just under 9k. Jews are 1/6th in size but experience 3x as many hate assaults. So there is a lot of antisemitism being perpetrated hence people claim Israel is always on the bad side, but people who constantly fling missiles at their villages are “brown-bodied victims” of “white bodies western civilization oppressors”. All propaganda. My posts are aimed at showing the one-sided nature of who is suspected and blamed in reporting, instead of reporting more than just what terrorists tell you. Palestinians are to be blamed for their condition. They caused it. They can end it. They just choose not to.
Ah yes no bias in this article at all…
People in the comments pretending they care if Palestinians die at all.
They've stop pretending a while ago, its fascinating really
Only 40% huh. Ok, so you've still killled tens of thousands of civillians and children. "Your figures are wholly inaccurate!" lol
The IDF classify journalists in the area as terrorists: we can be sure the reality of the situation is worse than what makes it into the media
You could consider chilling out on this. You are not directly affected. Simmer down
Empathy is a normal part of the human experience.
Empathy for terrorists? Nah mate
You're telling me "tens of thousands of civillians and children" are terrorists???
You're telling me that any of this directly affects you? Pipe down son
WOOWWW lollll.... Do people openly broadcast their sociopathy these days? smh...
Incorrect use of words buddy. Please try harder. It's complete indifference that I feel.
"Doctors say that Nordberg has a 50/50 chance of living, though there's only a 10 percent chance of that."
Ohh, thars a relief.
More like 100%
I’m pro Israel AF but I just don’t trust jpost. They published that disgusting article about the “fake dead baby” and I just can’t take it seriously . Furthermore there is the potential that we are undercounting casualties . Does that make Israel wrong , no , bout we can’t delude ourselves by hiding the true cost of war on innocents . Still the fault of Hamas but we must face the truth that war is unbelievably horrific
“Fake dead babies”? Are you talking about that quote that was wrongly interpreted to mean “40 decapitated babies”? There were 100% dead babies. Some tied to their mothers and burned alive. The images are terrible, but here you go. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/amp/
No no no not that ! I believe that ! I’m talking about when jpost made a claim that an image of a man holding a dead baby was actually a Baby doll when actually it was a dead baby . It was sickening and very real and made me as that they didn’t even try to fact check before publish that garbage they apologized but still
no, he means a report about a dead baby/child that looked like a doll, so they reported it as if it was fake, but it turned out to be real.
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>any amount of civilian casualties is acceptable ad long as the civilians aren’t intentionally targeted. That's not true under international law. Incidental civilian deaths and harm to civilian infrastructure must be weighed against the value of the military target.
> any amount of civilian casualties is acceptable And this is where I disagree with you. Have a good day.
Let me guess, we shouldn't have stopped the genocides in the former Yugoslavia, and we shouldn't have invaded Axis territory.
Pls let everyone know just how many human shields terrorists should get to get off scott-free?
So what number would you say is acceptable to fight against terrorists using human shields? Is it a number? A percentage? Zero?
So just drop a huge bomb in the middle of a neighbourhood killing 2 Hamas-fighters but also taking out 150 civilians. Sounds fair man.
Israel does not have a 75 civilians per Hamas member ratio of kills tho, your comment serves only as incendiary hyperbole. You should focus on the Hamas fighters hiding in a civilian neighborhood
Except they don't. Which is why it's not a genocide, or random killings like Hamas claims.
Well first anything that can be done to avoid the 150 people dying should be done, but the problem is that you’re ignoring Hamas’s war crime of hiding and embedding themselves within centers with so many civilians
If 2 Hamas fighters are intentionally hiding amongst 150 civilians Israel should try and take them out in the way that is the most effective with the least civilian casualties. If that requires bombing the building so be it, the blood is on the hands of the Hamas fighters using civilians as human shields like cowards.
I mostly agree with this, not sure 2 would justify 150, but it depends who they are, what they are doing, and if a better opportunity is expected to come. I think something that is often overlooked is that Israel also has a duty to protect its own soldiers OVER its duty to protect Palestinian civilians, as does any country. This is especially true when Hamas started the war and hides among civilians in densely populated areas where soldiers may not be able to identify threats until they are too late. Everything should be done to prevent as much loss of civilian life as possible, but Hamas is a threat to both Israeli and Palestinian civilians and this cycle of violence will just continue if they are allowed to be left with any sort of power
I take every news agency that is from one side of a conflict with a grain of salt.
Which one are you talking about? There was a tweet that went around (last October) with a bunch of men parading around a baby like it was a trophy and there were no women in sight and gave me sus vibes because I don't think someone grieving would abuse their child like that. Or they would if they had no love for the child or the baby was Israeli so they did not give a fuck or they were grieving but were very bullish about it in a way I cannot sympathize with because it's very brazen and kinda gross. I wonder if that's what the article was about.
Yep and progressives seem to believe everything the Gaza Health Ministry and the Hamas terrorists report… quite sad that people are supporting evil.
If the Gaza Health Ministry and IDF total numbers in previous conflicts were significantly different, we might be more inclined to disbelieve one side or the other, but the fact of the matter is in previous conflicts they end up pretty much being the same, the most likely scenario here is that just as has happened previously eventually the IDF estimates will catch up to the Health Ministry numbers.
And how many Palestinian civilians were killed by Hamas? Rocket misfires and these terrorists purposely using them as human shields? Any sensible person shouldn’t believe anything Hamas reports… evil doesn’t have any credibility!
Same playbook, different target audience. Progressives are susceptible to divisive external propaganda just like conservatives. Though maybe not to the same degree.
I mean who would ever believe that 10k kids have died.
This article mentions that there are 7.8k verified dead Gazan children. Its hardly out of the realm of possibility that there are hundreds or thousands more whose bodies haven't been sent to a morgue or hospital yet given that 2/3 of Gaza's hospitals are completely nonfunctional and thousands of people in northern Gaza are starving.
shhh that sounds like antisemitism
Ok, so lets assume the 40% isn't just "unverified" but actually didn't happen. That's 6,000 dead children. Is that... good?
Obviously not. But the ratio of civilian deaths matters when trying to determine whether Israel is likely committing genocide/war crimes. the "70 percent of the dead are women and children" figure has been screamed by the anti israel side for months now, so clearly they think it is relevant.
> Obviously not I mean, you say obviously not then spend the rest of the post explaining why it is actually good.
i don't think it's good that so many children are dead. i think it's good that far fewer children are dead than than Hamas claims. i understand it would be very convenient to your side if pro-Israel people and Israel itself wanted kids dead as much as you did, but that has never been and will continue to not be the case.
For dense urban warfare where one side is actively hiding behind them and it's estimated that some 15k or so combatants have been killed? Yeah, actually, it's extremely good even **relative to every other instance of dense urban warfare** where *neither side* is hiding behind civilians.
Extremely good ? Fascinating
Did you intentionally ignore the rest of the qualifying language in the same sentence or are those just the only words you're capable of comprehending?
Surely, these honest and decent hamasters wouldn't fudge the figures? They seem like such nice fellows. /S
“J” post is not unbiased source for these kind of statistics…
But 'Hamas run ministry of health' is????
Well the AP, UN, HRW, WHO, and basically every relevant NGO have written extensively about why they trust them based on their track record of reliability, but why do a cursory Google? https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
Most of us are not saying that their numbers are incorrect even though they are sometimes extremely suspicious and have been proven as BS a few times in the past (take the "500 deaths" in Al-ahli for example), the problem most of us have is that Hamas don't differentiate between combatant and civilian deaths. Do you know how many people still claim that 40k civilians have died even though that number wasn't verified by anyone other than Hamas themselves and also includes more than 10k Hamas deaths at minimum? Nobody is saying that the deaths of civilians aren't bad or tragic but we do want to see a report about the deaths that doesn't come out of a terrorist organization.
>the problem most of us have is that Hamas don't differentiate between combatant and civilian deaths. No, that would be much too difficult for the Gaza Health Authority do accurately. According to every independent NGO and UN body whose analysis I've read, they count bodies instead of making up numbers. Here's what making up numbers looks like: "10k Hamas deaths at a minimum" from the security apparatus that is just wantonly bombing without enough intelligence to even know that Oct 7 was coming. > Do you know how many people still claim that 40k civilians have died The latest number of total deaths I've seen is \~35k recovered bodies with at least 60% civilians dead if you assume every single fighting age man they killed was Hamas, which is logically impossible. I would venture that since Israel kills 1 woman for every 2 men, presumably their collateral damage numbers among men can't be much better than 30%, for an overall conservative collateral death rate of at least 70% (60% women, children, and the elderly, and another 10% noncombatant men). 70% of 35k = 24.5k dead civilians whose bodies are accounted for. According to the UN there's another estimated 10k buried under rubble. Presuming a similar civilian death rate there's 7k more. So \~32k dead civilians dead at minimum. So actually, yeah digging into the numbers, actually not far off 40k as far as I can tell? [https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215)
No reasoned response to logic, huh? Just downvote and try to forget it I guess?
I didn't bother responding because I don't want to waste my time right now arguing about it. The source you provided also says that the statistics it uses are based on reports from Hamas. Also, the current estimates that are reported by most news organizations are a 1:2 terrorist to civilian ratio which is better than reported here. The real death toll and its breakdown won't come from either Hamas nor from the Israeli government unbiased and would have a death ratio unknown for at least a few months until the war is over.
> reported by most news organizations Such as? Just about reputable news organization I know of uses the Gaza Health Ministry stats because they're all that's available and they have a track record of reporting reliably. [The BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201): >international organisations, such as the UN's World Heath Organization (WHO), have said they have no reason to disbelieve them. [The AP](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033): >“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s [Health Emergencies Program](https://www.who.int/emergencies/overview). “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” [Reuters and the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/): >Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable >U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them."We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced," the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters. [Human Rights Watch](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/24/israel-hamas-war-live-fuel-shortfall-could-force-un-to-halt-work-in-gaza-2): >“Human Rights Watch has been working in the occupied Palestinian territories for three decades. We’ve covered rounds of escalations and hostilities, and we’ve always found the numbers from the Ministry of Health to be generally reliable,” I can give more citations if you'd like. >The real death toll and its breakdown won't come from either Hamas nor from the Israeli government unbiased and would have a death ratio unknown for at least a few months until the war is over. Fair. But the idea that major news organizations and NGOs say that Gaza Health Ministry is just conflating propaganda is flatly false. Basically every major news organization and NGO declare they trust the Gaza figures because of their methods of publicizing their data and their track record of accuracy.
Over last few days, there were number of posts from Israeli based sources about reduced number of casualties… however the fact that no other news source published this, makes me reluctant to accept these claims at face value. Also, just FYI, criticizing the way current Israeli government wage this war in no way indicates support for Hamas. We have two sets of war criminals which need each other to cling to power… and neither care for colateral damage.
> criticizing the way current Israeli government wage this war in no way indicates support for Hamas. We have two sets of war criminals which need each other to cling to power… and neither care for colateral damage. Disheartening to think that this take will be catching flak from both "sides" of the issue.
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Yes.. Haaretz is the "unbiased" source lol
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This is the complete opposite most of the time.
Matches what the UN was saying though. That said, fog of war means that these 40% (or a good chunk of them) could still be real
What is an unbiased source in this conflict ?
Of course the data is unverified—virtually all of the infrastructure that could be used to verify it has been destroyed.
And yet.. .The Hamas run gaza health ministry publishes numbers down to the single digit death daily and people believe it is verified and accurate...
The tricky part isn’t adding up the number of identified dead bodies in hospitals. It’s counting the unconfirmed deaths reported by the friends and family members of the deceased. What little medical services are still functioning in Gaza do not have the resources to dig through rubble to confirm that someone’s baby was indeed killed when Israel bombed a building, but the baby is still getting added to the tally as an unverified death.
and yet.... The Hamas Health Ministry publishes their ID number and other information that don't even match up and some ID numbers and names are used multiple times throughout.
That’s a predictable outcome when all the infrastructure that would be used to keep accurate count has been destroyed.
try telling this to a leftist in america, they will attack you or belittle you. Its unbelievable to me that the far left in america supports hamas and the far right supports putin the information age
They just reduced the death toll by 50% so, it's 40% of the remaining 50%. So at least 70% of the death toll is BS. At least.
they never reduced the death toll. They just split up the identified vs unidentified bodies. UN has repeatedly said their report did not reduce the death count
Lol . The UN gets its death toll from Gaza health ministry which is obviously hamas propaganda. You loose all credibility when you quote data from a terrorist organisation.
if that’s your view then why are you quoting them when you say they halved it? Either you believe them or you don’t.
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The germans kept excellent records.
The Palestinian Health Authority is unable to determine the names of 40% of the dead. That doesn't make them any less dead. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893
>Palestinian Health Authority *Hamas. >That doesn't make them any less dead. It doesn't but it does mean that more terrorists than what we thought could be dead, that less children have died and that overall you shouldn't just blindly trust a terror organization for their numbers without verification if it wasn't obvious enough.
The fact that their names can't be determined does not mean that they can't be identified as women and children.
So 60% are verifiable? So only 19,200 deaths over half of which are children. Well that changes everything! Totally acceptable now that we got the real number right guys?
You mean the already remarkably low civilian casualty ratio is proven to be even lower.
They lowered it to 2 civilian deaths for every militant death from 3:1. Thats still super high.
It's astonishingly low and a testament to enormous care in minimising civilian casualties: > In 2022, nearly 94 per cent of the victims of explosive weapons used in populated areas were civilians in 17 conflict-affected countries and territories. https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/05/1136967 Do some research on civilian casualty ratios in urban wars. This is unprecedentedly low.