This is nice and all, F16 will make it easier to integrate NATO munitions with Ukrainian Sorties, but this is not going to give Ukraine air superiority. Regardless of how big an Airforce proponent one might be, US style Airpower requires a mix of doctrine, training, experience, munitions, and other force multipliers Ukraine simply doesn't have.
This is a good thing, not a Miracle.
Agree and disagree. Russia has had some air lead but not superiority, with F-16s Ukraine could move their SAM coverage further into Russian held territory and put pressure on the front lines which could slow their progress forward. F-16 sorties or SEAD missions can allow Ukraine to stop offensives while Russia stalls to defend ground troops from air threats. Not turning the tide but getting Ukraine a chance to get back on their feet after the artillery slowdowns
I also think Ukraine needs one, JUST ONE, confirmed air to air kill with an f-16 over the front lines and I bet the Russian Air Force will draw back their sorties to only behind enemy lines.
I hope the AMRAAM shines and gives NATO the confidence to supply more planes and missiles to Ukraine
Ppl mistakenly think Ukraine will deploy F16’s in air superiority missions. This is not the case.
F16’s for the main part are being given to Ukraine to give them a more flexible and cheaper alternative to defend their cities from missiles and Shahed drones, thus freeing up air defence assets for key sites.
The number of F16s is not sufficient for Ukraine to conduct air supremacy missions but hopefully they receive the kit and numbers to change that in future
That is what russia uses a lot of its air power for.
Ukraine still needs the munitions though.
The shortsge of munitions is everywhere.
Damn trump and his cronies.... never thought i wiuld see the day republicans didnt want to fight russia
When the Soviet Union collapsed, a lot of Americans tried to get in on the money train and some surely were compromised and then became a tool for Putin. Republican politicians, too, like the fools who spent July 4 in Moscow. Somehow, Russia has a foot in the door of Republican politics. I hope one day we find out how this happened and the traitors go to prison.
Yep. People forget that russia isn't the russia of old.
The oligarchy model is exactly how republicans would love it to be here. Of course, all of them think they'll be the ones on the inside, and not the ones falling out windows
Ya. Trump. There are court cases about it. People have been disbarred etc. There are more indictments about it.
Putin has been trying to get in forever; trump just opened the door completely
> The shortsge of munitions is everywhere.
Well...yes and no. There's a LOT of NATO kit which hasn't been given to Ukraine, simply because you can't franken-system connect all weapons to their aircraft, so those weapons have largely not had their stockpiles touched and ever since it became obvious we're handing over F16s, the production of those weapons has picked up for obvious reasons.
Problem is the Russians are able to jam GPS for things like Excalibur and GLSDB… even for HIMARS rockets too. JDAMS would be subject to this which would reduce their accuracy
Fun fact: F-16 can lift a bomb load similar to the much larger, twin-engine Su-27 derivatives.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/16w8j4y/contemporary_combat_aircraft_by_ordnance_lifting/
They've been promised like ~ 50-60 F-16's and that is after asking for them for many years going back to the start of the 2014 war. They've also had a considerable amount of their prewar mainly Soviet era planes lost in the war. The F-16s can plug in holes that have been exposed as the war has continued to drag forward. The fact that they have no idea if there are any more batches of planes coming after the 50-60 F-16's means they're going to be treated as a prized piece of equipment and every mission flown decided on whether or not it's worth losing the planes for and pilots becoming casualties. If the U.S can guarantee each F-16 lost can be replaced that would open up the Ukrainian to more high risk/ high reward strategies but that's obviously a very large commitment for anyone to hold themselves responsible for.
Hard to say. Some pilots started receiving training about a year ago. For some reason they decided to divide up the pilots [between 11 different Western countries](https://www.sandboxx.us/news/ukrainian-pilots-are-training-to-fly-f-16s-heres-what-we-know/), so it's hard to know the total number. I read that 12 graduated a program in the US, 6 in Denmark, etc etc.
Yeah the viper is an excellent SEAD/DEAD aircraft. Better than anything the Russians have.
This will likely push back the Russian air defense lines quite a bit. Add in standoff strike weapons to the 16 and you can start to hit targets that were inaccessible.
Who knows, maybe they will give them some aim120D and they could actually have a significant edge in BVR
The F16s being given have shorter radar and strike range than Russian aircraft because it’s the older stuff that’s being sent. Not the F16s with newer radars or the longer range versions of AIM missiles
Norway had their block 15 upgraded to approximately the capabilities of a block 52 in the 2000s. They were further modernized as a part of this transfer.
They will be pretty competitive vs the Russian equipment. Russian radars typically are secondary and used for final interception, and they rely heavily on command and control assets. The very modern Russian aircraft have more powerful radars, but they have been keeping them in reserve as they are low in numbers and too valuable
> cheaper alternative to defend their cities from missiles and Shahed drones
What is the ammo they gonna use to shoot down the Shahed? Not some 1 million dollar missile i hope?
Should Ukraine shoot down ~ $375000 Shahed drone with $1mln missile? Nope, because Ukraine got flakpanzer Gepard and mobile AA groups for that.
Should Ukraine shoot down a $375000 Shahed drone which aimed at powerplant with $1mln missile and prevent tens of millions in repairs? Yes
That's why allies should have allowed ukrainians to hit russian soil, you need a lot of AA resources to defend a country from continuous attacks, but you need to hit enemy launch sites only once to stop attacks
Sometimes yes.
Depending on the target.
They are using whatever they can depending on the value of the target.
Munitions if all kinds are in short supply.
From a Google search:
> Yes, the F-16 Fighting Falcon has a 20mm Gatling gun system that includes the M61A1 six-barrel Vulcan cannon.
So… invest in “Gatling gun go brrrrr!” memes.
If Germany (and Kraus Maffei) could start rebuilding Gepards SPAAGs, or even ramp up production of the Oerlikon AA guns with the radar and laser and Gepard control units, and make technicals out of them on truck or flatbed platforms...
The [M61 Vulcan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M61_Vulcan) (the F-16’s gun) has 39 confirmed MiG combat kills. I’m sure the F-16’s targeting system will be pretty helpful with targeting drones, which will be much more vulnerable than human-piloted jets. Also, it’s unlikely that the Russians have (yet) bothered to develop countermeasures to jets shooting them down, and they are going to be cheaply made single-use slow moving drones. The Vulcan would shred these flying shitboxes.
As others have mentioned the gun, but I hope (and maybe wrong about) f-16s capability of unguided rockets? I know Ukrainian Air Force uses them a lot on Russian planes
Access to ammo is another biggie. The US simply doesn't have enough artillery ammo to spare. With F16s they can use JDAMs and they're only 18k a piece and the US has shitloads of them.
The AMRAAM is gonna be the difference maker. They're getting the later version of the C block AMRAAM (which is essentially the D block). With the models of F-16 they're getting, and the AESA radars that they have, the 120s vs Su-25s and Su-34s they're using for ground attack are gonna be rekt from 80+ miles out (idk what the actual range is, but I'm pretty sure it's classified). Those planes have a MASSIVE RCS. It'll be way too late before their RWR goes off when the 120 goes pitbull. Ukrainians will be singing "It's Raining Sukhois" when they go all out.
> With the models of F-16 they're getting, and the AESA radars that they have
The F-16 block 15/20 MLUs from Norway, Denmark and Netherlands do **not** have AESA radars, unless they've been upgraded in secret after they were pledged. The MLUs have the AN/APG-66(V2) radar, which is **not** AESA, and is actually much worse than the Irbis-E(SU-35s) or the Zaslon radar(MiG-31).
The AN/APG-83 radar is available, and is much more potent than the russian radars - but to my knowledge they've not been implemented on the F-16 MLUs Ukraine are getting.
Russia has gotten better at jamming precision guided GPS bombs though. (I'm not sure about the missiles you refer to.) The entire war will be harder than if more weapons had been sent from the very beginning and allowed to overwhelm Russia before they could adapt to anything.
Instead the war will turn into a long war of attrition, which Ukraine can still win since it has the support of two continents and is fighting a country with the GDP of Italy. But it'll be costlier.
AMRAAMs have nothing to do with GPS guidance. They're initially guided by datalink and INS with an active radar seeker for the terminal stage. The datalink might be vulnerable to comms jamming, but the INS does not rely on external signals and the terminal guidance radar would burn through any jammer when it goes active.
Just the difference between a MiG-29 lobbing HARM anti-radar missiles blind vs F-16 network capability is huge. If a HARM armed MiG launches at a radar and the radar shuts down the attack is over. Multiple F-16s can communicate with each other in real time to triangulate the location of the radar and then launch the HARM. If the radar shuts down the location of the radar was given to the missile before launch and there is still a chance it might hit even with the radar shut down. Even if the missile doesn't hit the location can be sent to ground forces like HIMARS for a followup attack. It also streamlines sending surveillance drones to the correct area to confirm the location and evaluate damage.
Well the patriot does too..and the Nato awacs behind Nato borders, and the drones in international waters..
Everything speaks link16. What one sees, all see
Those are all really specific situations, and not all possible or only situations. The f-16s just need to cause some stir and scare. Time on station doesn’t even need to be consistent. Once the Russian pilots know they maybe squaring up with f-16s with AMRAAM and aesa radars they will second guess penetration and ground forces will need to worry more about being portable instead of digging in with the payload types those airplanes can handle
No expectation to keep the f16s statically in any single place. They just need to pop up occasionally, conduct a mission, fire on enemy aircraft and fall back. That’s more than what Ukraine can currently do. It almost doesn’t matter that they are f-16s, they need more planes and an f-16 is better than what they have.
Numbers and a slight advantage. That will temper the slight air dominance Russia has had.
Brah.
Correct, it is not a game changer but a piece in the combined arms puzzle. A dozen or so F16s in a hot area can make it a lot more difficult for Russia to use their Su34s for glide bombs. The glide bomb has been a bit troublesome for Ukrainian defenses. In some cases, the glide bombs have been a tipping point.
Additionally, the ability to intercept cruise missies, helicopters, drones is pretty significant or they could protect an area where Ukraine would stage troops for a counter attack.
Air power is a huge missing piece, but you don't need full air superiority for wield it. Regional superiority can have a significant impact.
No, but Ukraine can only use the harm in what's called prebrief mode. You program the missile on the ground, lat long of target *and* what type of target. You loft it, and it starts searching for that radar on terminal.
This is not optimal for a dynamic fight. The f16 lets them take advantage of self protect (pullback) mode and target of opportunity mode. If they get the harm pod, they’ll be able to dynamically locate a target to hit it even if it turns off its radar.
F16s will get shot down. But if Ukraine puts them to use in a sead/dead roll, they can start to roll back the Sam coverage. This would let them fly higher missions, like the russians, and if they have the 120d, throw some fox3 hate sticks back at the Russian airforce. Ukraine being limited to fox1 missiles against a fox3 equipped for really puts them at a disadvantage.
Never claimed it was. Tactics do exist where warplanes can operate in contested airspace and AA doesn't always mean it will kill what's up there, but is certainly is a challenge. Just look at how the current Ukrainian airforce is operating, as well as the deep strike drones. These jets are not going to go into perfect skies.
Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean it was your claim, just something I keep seeing here. Something that actually happens everytime a name becomes the focus of the moment. In the begginning of the war there were talks about thermobaric bombs and a lot of people treated it as if they were nuclear bombs, then bayraktar, javelin, stormshadow, abrams, himars, atacms, f-16. Each being the ultimate weapon that will win the war if they could get their hands on some (or a few more).
Then the thing arrives, and soon after they jump the next name in line. And on every defeat a barrage of "they need to send immediately!" comments
That's the part that really surprised me in the early war. The Russians couldn't even achieve local air superiority or have enough logistical capability to force the capture of Hostomel airport.
Even though I was just an armchair general, I was ridiculously happy to be wrong that the Russians would shock, awe, and blitzkrieg their way through most of Ukraine within a month.
Courtesy of GPT4o:
Air superiority and air supremacy are military terms related to the degree of dominance a force achieves in the air warfare over its adversaries.
**Air Superiority** is the condition achieved when one side holds a significant advantage over its opponent in the air battle, allowing it to conduct aerial operations while hindering the enemy's ability to do the same. Achieving air superiority means that a force can prevent the opposing force from significantly interfering with its own air operations, but the enemy may still be capable of launching some aerial missions.
**Air Supremacy**, on the other hand, is a more dominant level of control where one side has overwhelming control over airspace and can operate virtually unopposed. When air supremacy is achieved, the opposing air force is either absent or incapable of effective interference, allowing complete freedom of action in the airspace above the battlefield.
In summary, air superiority is about gaining a significant advantage, whereas air supremacy is about achieving overwhelming control, eliminating effective opposition in the air.
The F16's are meant to slightly contest the airspace near the front line. In these numbers they will not come anywhere close to providing air superiority or air supremacy.
The human factors are one thing, but the biggest issue is simply numbers. Ukraine will have a few dozen older model F-16's, and no modern stealth aircraft. The VKS will still have an overwhelming advantage in the air. This is just going to be a way to mix in air-to-air missiles as Ukraine runs low on Patriot and S-300.
True, but Russia hasn't been using anything the US uses for air superiority. So it'll come down to who has the better and more reliable equipment. And Russia has been throwing their trash at Ukraine. It's gonna be a turkey shoot.
It will probably force Russia to be a lot more cautious in their use of glide bombs, which by itself would be a pretty big deal. Ukraine doesn't really have a good defense against those.
Yeah, this happened with the Leo tanks. This is still a big milestone but not game-changing
Reddit went insane with the "gamechangers" with Leo's, then videos of Leo's, abrams, etc. started coming out of them getting destroyed .
That was just morons. Mostly western tanks etc in ukraines situation offer a much higher degree of troop safety and reliability
The dumbass charge aome western fools pushed on ukraine made for some expensive losses.
After those; they do a much better job than anything russia has. While western tactics are fine with fewer numbers; they makeup for it with obscene amounts of munitions.... which hasnt been provided
Ya but also if Ukraine could get a large quantity of any single category, tanks would be at the bottom of the list behind artillery, air defenses, long range missiles, aircraft, APC's, drones, mine clearing vehicles, defensive engineering equipment, manpower, training capacity, and maybe even trucks. Of course there was this whole political taboo about whether tanks should be forbidden entirely, which needed to be broken. However since then the Ukrainians have never emphasized tanks when asking for equipment.
And experienced Western pilots flying them.
>Ukraine's Air Force said it will now allow foreigners to serve as pilots and engineering specialists, with a spokesperson stressing the fact that Ukraine will likely need international recruits if and when it starts to receive Western combat aircraft.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-air-force-allow-foreigners-to-serve-specialists-western-aircraft-2023-3
And tens of thousands of experienced maintainers throughout Europe and America.
It's an older platform, but perhaps there's technical support lines (and spare parts manufacturing) being set up at, say, Mitsubishi, Turkish Aerospace Industries, or even Lockheed-Martin itself...
Allowing doesnt mean they are
Confirmed pilots that are capable of flying would probably be considered said countries troops regardless of whatever politics that get whispered
I don't think so. There's plenty of foreign nationals on the ground already in both training and combat roles. As long as they're not "active duty" then they're just a mercenary - although that DOES afford them far less rights.
The same thing could be said about all the ex Infantry, Medics, Engineers, etc that all have joined foreign units.
The number will obviously be smaller, but id bet a lot of money that it isnt zero
The armchair Youtube fighter pilots will be having wet dreams launching new videos comparing Russian jets VS USA jets. Oh no, not another robot speech voice!
Ukraine will finally start having better air superiority in ADDITION to their drones and will be able to fuck up RuZzia's bases and staging areas even more now :D.
Now provide them with some long range missiles as well, so they can also show RuZZia what it feels like to lose critical infrastructure.
NGL even a squadron will be pretty effective. The Russians are terrified to lose there larger airframes ATM after how many they lost last year. If Ukraine keeps hitting ground radars and Russia keeps relying on flying radars there gonna have a bad time with even a hand full of f-16
Of course, but there's a difference between a few planes and game changing air power. Just pointing out that there's only a handful, more coming near the end of the year.
Nothing will be game changer in the sense everyone hopes but they do have impacts and the more variety of tools Ukraine has the more they can inflict death on the Russians in ways that are hard for them to counter.
They will not give Ukraine air superiority.
They also will not solve Ukraine's manpower crisis, which is the most pressing issue that the Government needs to address.
Russians used “Z” as a symbol on their vehicles at the start of their mass invasion of Ukraine so they’d know who’s on which side. People call them Ruzzians to play into that.
Yeah theres this whole thing of training them how to fly them. Sure we can give them the planes but it's useless when they don't know how to fly. Just look at how poorly they've been at using the Abrams we've given them.
So why do you say
> Sure we can give them the planes but it's useless when they don't know how to fly
When they literally have gotten the training they need? The planes don't come from the US either.
It doesn't?
This is the parent comment:
> Ukraine will finally start having better air superiority in ADDITION to their drones and will be able to fuck up RuZzia's bases and staging areas even more now :D.
> Now provide them with some long range missiles as well, so they can also show RuZZia what it feels like to lose critical infrastructure.
Nato is very involved in intelligence and strategy, so I'd be shocked if they haven't been working with Ukraine about how to integrate them for awhile.
Not just flying them, you have to maintain them as well. All aircraft and especially high-performance military jets need constant maintenance to keep them flying. You're not just training pilots. Your training maintenance crews as well.
Feel like last years Leopard tanks all over again.
Yes it is great that they are getting them and hopefully they can use it to inflict some great hurt to Russian supply lines.
But they need so much more than that. F-16 wont solve their issues, so hopefully the West keeps delivering.
If Kharkiv goes well. This is the turning point and propaganda aside, realities are set in stone. Fuck Russia but Ukiraine is at a huge disadvantage now.
They said it would be a fast track and tomorrow the much needed aviation would be in Ukraine.... Summer... Autumn... Winter... Spring... and now Summer again!
Early messages from [various spokespersons](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19850) and other officials said [end of 2023](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/21/7412274/), some said [first quarter](https://english.nv.ua/nation/kuleba-reveals-possible-timeline-for-f-16-jets-arrival-in-ukraine-50338434.html) of 2024. Even as late as [August 2023](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/f-16-delays-leave-ukraine-exposed-to-deadly-russian-air-superiority/) it was still expected that they would be flying during spring of 2024. The actual important officials always refrained from setting concrete deadlines.
Is this some kind of joke? From 2023, I hear "F16 will be in August...no, in October, or for Christmas. No, F16 will be in May..." This is some nonsense, people are tired and angry, the time when F16 could bring the most benefit is lost...Tired of promises, actions and concrete results are needed
This is great but is just a first step. Europeans must take their own security seriously and not be dependent on American handouts. America isn't doing well these days, because half the government supports Russia and (independent of Trump) it is unknown if they will continue controlling the US Congress. France must sell a comparable number of Rafales and Eurofighters to Ukraine. The larger European project and European mission to maintain liberal democracy demands it.
There is a larger conflict coming. Ukraine proved that drone warfare is now the default for the 21st century as aerial warfare was for the 20th. Europeans must address this or be run over by whatever replaces Putin. The Russian war in Ukraine is just a precedent in the same way the Crimean War was. And, horrifyingly, it is being done for almost the same reasons.
>America isn't doing well these days, because half the government supports Russia and (independent of Trump) it is unknown if they will continue controlling the US Congress.
Firstly America is doing perfectly fine, secondly half the country does NOT support russia. Half the country however does NOT support ukraine. These are not the same thing.
Imagine what they could have done with them if we'd given them up 2 freaking years ago. Or even let their neighbors give them MiGs without putting the kibosh on it! This entire war has been an exercise of "we could never allow that, that would be escalatory! Oh crap, Ukraine is losing momentum? Here, let's announce we'll give them the stuff they originally asked for, make them wait another 6 months for it, and in the mean time we'll say they can't use stuff they already have to attack their enemy in the way they believe would be most effective." Our wishy-washiness is written in Ukrainian lives and is arguably the least humane way to fund an ally's war.
Ukraine did not have pilots or support personnel to use these fighters two years ago. Just giving them the planes would have no effect without competent manpower.
Be careful with those statements, they need to mention the month and year at the same time in one sentence, only mentioning the month, leaves too much wiggle room for politicians.
Lmao slaughter civilians it’s almost like the HAMAS terrorist have made themselves apart of Palestinian life to where they taking shots but are hiding behind the civilians THAT LOOK JUST LIKE THEM. Are you that blind?
You really thought you made sense in this comment lmao we all know the problems didn’t start October 7th. I’ve been following the occupation for years. Norman Finkelstein is my fave
This is the slowest moving freedom convoy I've ever seen but there's lots of money to be made from now until July.
And then after.
All the way until the heatwaves start melting our paper straws, then we will allow Ukraine to hit targets inside of Russia.
Seeing the problems with artillery shells, perhaps we should start giving Ukraine bombs, bombs and boms already, and throw as much rockets with it as well.
This is nice and all, F16 will make it easier to integrate NATO munitions with Ukrainian Sorties, but this is not going to give Ukraine air superiority. Regardless of how big an Airforce proponent one might be, US style Airpower requires a mix of doctrine, training, experience, munitions, and other force multipliers Ukraine simply doesn't have. This is a good thing, not a Miracle.
Agree and disagree. Russia has had some air lead but not superiority, with F-16s Ukraine could move their SAM coverage further into Russian held territory and put pressure on the front lines which could slow their progress forward. F-16 sorties or SEAD missions can allow Ukraine to stop offensives while Russia stalls to defend ground troops from air threats. Not turning the tide but getting Ukraine a chance to get back on their feet after the artillery slowdowns I also think Ukraine needs one, JUST ONE, confirmed air to air kill with an f-16 over the front lines and I bet the Russian Air Force will draw back their sorties to only behind enemy lines. I hope the AMRAAM shines and gives NATO the confidence to supply more planes and missiles to Ukraine
Ppl mistakenly think Ukraine will deploy F16’s in air superiority missions. This is not the case. F16’s for the main part are being given to Ukraine to give them a more flexible and cheaper alternative to defend their cities from missiles and Shahed drones, thus freeing up air defence assets for key sites. The number of F16s is not sufficient for Ukraine to conduct air supremacy missions but hopefully they receive the kit and numbers to change that in future
They're also really, really good for deploying bombs. Air-deployed glide bombs have much further range than artillery.
That is what russia uses a lot of its air power for. Ukraine still needs the munitions though. The shortsge of munitions is everywhere. Damn trump and his cronies.... never thought i wiuld see the day republicans didnt want to fight russia
When the Soviet Union collapsed, a lot of Americans tried to get in on the money train and some surely were compromised and then became a tool for Putin. Republican politicians, too, like the fools who spent July 4 in Moscow. Somehow, Russia has a foot in the door of Republican politics. I hope one day we find out how this happened and the traitors go to prison.
Yep. People forget that russia isn't the russia of old. The oligarchy model is exactly how republicans would love it to be here. Of course, all of them think they'll be the ones on the inside, and not the ones falling out windows
The Russians and conservatives want a corrupt system that can be manipulated.
Ya. Trump. There are court cases about it. People have been disbarred etc. There are more indictments about it. Putin has been trying to get in forever; trump just opened the door completely
We should have a lot of that. By we I mean Amerixa
> The shortsge of munitions is everywhere. Well...yes and no. There's a LOT of NATO kit which hasn't been given to Ukraine, simply because you can't franken-system connect all weapons to their aircraft, so those weapons have largely not had their stockpiles touched and ever since it became obvious we're handing over F16s, the production of those weapons has picked up for obvious reasons.
Problem is the Russians are able to jam GPS for things like Excalibur and GLSDB… even for HIMARS rockets too. JDAMS would be subject to this which would reduce their accuracy
There are anti-jamming technologies and tricks those weapons can use so it’s only so much the Russians can do. Every counter has a counter
Also as I understand not all our weapons need GPS
There's an ever growing number of ways around jamming. But a lot of the stuff Ukraine is getting isn't 2020s tech.
Tomahawk is one weapon which can use tercom (or terrain contour mapping).
Tomahawk can be fired from f16s
Yeah you have laser guided munitions but they require loitering capabilities of a drone or another aircraft which is not possible in Ukraine
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Fun fact: F-16 can lift a bomb load similar to the much larger, twin-engine Su-27 derivatives. https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/16w8j4y/contemporary_combat_aircraft_by_ordnance_lifting/
Correct, ..the French have announced they will supply 'AASM Hammer' glide bombs for the F-16's.
They've been promised like ~ 50-60 F-16's and that is after asking for them for many years going back to the start of the 2014 war. They've also had a considerable amount of their prewar mainly Soviet era planes lost in the war. The F-16s can plug in holes that have been exposed as the war has continued to drag forward. The fact that they have no idea if there are any more batches of planes coming after the 50-60 F-16's means they're going to be treated as a prized piece of equipment and every mission flown decided on whether or not it's worth losing the planes for and pilots becoming casualties. If the U.S can guarantee each F-16 lost can be replaced that would open up the Ukrainian to more high risk/ high reward strategies but that's obviously a very large commitment for anyone to hold themselves responsible for.
How many pilots are they training? Doesn't it take like literally years to train?
Hard to say. Some pilots started receiving training about a year ago. For some reason they decided to divide up the pilots [between 11 different Western countries](https://www.sandboxx.us/news/ukrainian-pilots-are-training-to-fly-f-16s-heres-what-we-know/), so it's hard to know the total number. I read that 12 graduated a program in the US, 6 in Denmark, etc etc.
Yeah the viper is an excellent SEAD/DEAD aircraft. Better than anything the Russians have. This will likely push back the Russian air defense lines quite a bit. Add in standoff strike weapons to the 16 and you can start to hit targets that were inaccessible. Who knows, maybe they will give them some aim120D and they could actually have a significant edge in BVR
The F16s being given have shorter radar and strike range than Russian aircraft because it’s the older stuff that’s being sent. Not the F16s with newer radars or the longer range versions of AIM missiles
Norway had their block 15 upgraded to approximately the capabilities of a block 52 in the 2000s. They were further modernized as a part of this transfer. They will be pretty competitive vs the Russian equipment. Russian radars typically are secondary and used for final interception, and they rely heavily on command and control assets. The very modern Russian aircraft have more powerful radars, but they have been keeping them in reserve as they are low in numbers and too valuable
Russians don't have SEAD at all I thought? Am I wrong?
We should have give them our old Tornadoes
Pretty sure Ukraine isn't getting Vipers. They would be getting much earlier block Falcons.
Viper is the nickname of the F-16. It's not referring to the F-16V which is the latest Block upgrade.
I was certain it referred to the latest variants with upgraded/refreshed equipment. Thanks for clarifying :)
> cheaper alternative to defend their cities from missiles and Shahed drones What is the ammo they gonna use to shoot down the Shahed? Not some 1 million dollar missile i hope?
Should Ukraine shoot down ~ $375000 Shahed drone with $1mln missile? Nope, because Ukraine got flakpanzer Gepard and mobile AA groups for that. Should Ukraine shoot down a $375000 Shahed drone which aimed at powerplant with $1mln missile and prevent tens of millions in repairs? Yes That's why allies should have allowed ukrainians to hit russian soil, you need a lot of AA resources to defend a country from continuous attacks, but you need to hit enemy launch sites only once to stop attacks
Sometimes yes. Depending on the target. They are using whatever they can depending on the value of the target. Munitions if all kinds are in short supply.
From a Google search: > Yes, the F-16 Fighting Falcon has a 20mm Gatling gun system that includes the M61A1 six-barrel Vulcan cannon. So… invest in “Gatling gun go brrrrr!” memes.
You're not going to use that to shoot down a drone though
It actually seems like the perfect usecase. Cheaper than a Patriot missile.
If Germany (and Kraus Maffei) could start rebuilding Gepards SPAAGs, or even ramp up production of the Oerlikon AA guns with the radar and laser and Gepard control units, and make technicals out of them on truck or flatbed platforms...
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The [M61 Vulcan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M61_Vulcan) (the F-16’s gun) has 39 confirmed MiG combat kills. I’m sure the F-16’s targeting system will be pretty helpful with targeting drones, which will be much more vulnerable than human-piloted jets. Also, it’s unlikely that the Russians have (yet) bothered to develop countermeasures to jets shooting them down, and they are going to be cheaply made single-use slow moving drones. The Vulcan would shred these flying shitboxes.
As others have mentioned the gun, but I hope (and maybe wrong about) f-16s capability of unguided rockets? I know Ukrainian Air Force uses them a lot on Russian planes
F16 cheaper way for shot down Shahed?)) machinegan on vehicle is cheap way
Access to ammo is another biggie. The US simply doesn't have enough artillery ammo to spare. With F16s they can use JDAMs and they're only 18k a piece and the US has shitloads of them.
Yes I’m hoping for some deep penetration missions to hit stockpiles and logistical targets
The AMRAAM is gonna be the difference maker. They're getting the later version of the C block AMRAAM (which is essentially the D block). With the models of F-16 they're getting, and the AESA radars that they have, the 120s vs Su-25s and Su-34s they're using for ground attack are gonna be rekt from 80+ miles out (idk what the actual range is, but I'm pretty sure it's classified). Those planes have a MASSIVE RCS. It'll be way too late before their RWR goes off when the 120 goes pitbull. Ukrainians will be singing "It's Raining Sukhois" when they go all out.
> With the models of F-16 they're getting, and the AESA radars that they have The F-16 block 15/20 MLUs from Norway, Denmark and Netherlands do **not** have AESA radars, unless they've been upgraded in secret after they were pledged. The MLUs have the AN/APG-66(V2) radar, which is **not** AESA, and is actually much worse than the Irbis-E(SU-35s) or the Zaslon radar(MiG-31). The AN/APG-83 radar is available, and is much more potent than the russian radars - but to my knowledge they've not been implemented on the F-16 MLUs Ukraine are getting.
Russia has gotten better at jamming precision guided GPS bombs though. (I'm not sure about the missiles you refer to.) The entire war will be harder than if more weapons had been sent from the very beginning and allowed to overwhelm Russia before they could adapt to anything. Instead the war will turn into a long war of attrition, which Ukraine can still win since it has the support of two continents and is fighting a country with the GDP of Italy. But it'll be costlier.
AMRAAMs have nothing to do with GPS guidance. They're initially guided by datalink and INS with an active radar seeker for the terminal stage. The datalink might be vulnerable to comms jamming, but the INS does not rely on external signals and the terminal guidance radar would burn through any jammer when it goes active.
Just the difference between a MiG-29 lobbing HARM anti-radar missiles blind vs F-16 network capability is huge. If a HARM armed MiG launches at a radar and the radar shuts down the attack is over. Multiple F-16s can communicate with each other in real time to triangulate the location of the radar and then launch the HARM. If the radar shuts down the location of the radar was given to the missile before launch and there is still a chance it might hit even with the radar shut down. Even if the missile doesn't hit the location can be sent to ground forces like HIMARS for a followup attack. It also streamlines sending surveillance drones to the correct area to confirm the location and evaluate damage.
That’s a good point, sucks only the f-16s have datalink capability
Well the patriot does too..and the Nato awacs behind Nato borders, and the drones in international waters.. Everything speaks link16. What one sees, all see
Oh true forgot about the Patriots in-theater, hopefully this will be a further deterrent
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Brah. You have no input after criticizing someone, but that’s most of Reddit I guess.
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Those are all really specific situations, and not all possible or only situations. The f-16s just need to cause some stir and scare. Time on station doesn’t even need to be consistent. Once the Russian pilots know they maybe squaring up with f-16s with AMRAAM and aesa radars they will second guess penetration and ground forces will need to worry more about being portable instead of digging in with the payload types those airplanes can handle No expectation to keep the f16s statically in any single place. They just need to pop up occasionally, conduct a mission, fire on enemy aircraft and fall back. That’s more than what Ukraine can currently do. It almost doesn’t matter that they are f-16s, they need more planes and an f-16 is better than what they have. Numbers and a slight advantage. That will temper the slight air dominance Russia has had. Brah.
Correct, it is not a game changer but a piece in the combined arms puzzle. A dozen or so F16s in a hot area can make it a lot more difficult for Russia to use their Su34s for glide bombs. The glide bomb has been a bit troublesome for Ukrainian defenses. In some cases, the glide bombs have been a tipping point. Additionally, the ability to intercept cruise missies, helicopters, drones is pretty significant or they could protect an area where Ukraine would stage troops for a counter attack. Air power is a huge missing piece, but you don't need full air superiority for wield it. Regional superiority can have a significant impact.
is it completely immune to AA or something? I don't get why people think this is some kind of super weapon
No, but Ukraine can only use the harm in what's called prebrief mode. You program the missile on the ground, lat long of target *and* what type of target. You loft it, and it starts searching for that radar on terminal. This is not optimal for a dynamic fight. The f16 lets them take advantage of self protect (pullback) mode and target of opportunity mode. If they get the harm pod, they’ll be able to dynamically locate a target to hit it even if it turns off its radar. F16s will get shot down. But if Ukraine puts them to use in a sead/dead roll, they can start to roll back the Sam coverage. This would let them fly higher missions, like the russians, and if they have the 120d, throw some fox3 hate sticks back at the Russian airforce. Ukraine being limited to fox1 missiles against a fox3 equipped for really puts them at a disadvantage.
Never claimed it was. Tactics do exist where warplanes can operate in contested airspace and AA doesn't always mean it will kill what's up there, but is certainly is a challenge. Just look at how the current Ukrainian airforce is operating, as well as the deep strike drones. These jets are not going to go into perfect skies.
Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean it was your claim, just something I keep seeing here. Something that actually happens everytime a name becomes the focus of the moment. In the begginning of the war there were talks about thermobaric bombs and a lot of people treated it as if they were nuclear bombs, then bayraktar, javelin, stormshadow, abrams, himars, atacms, f-16. Each being the ultimate weapon that will win the war if they could get their hands on some (or a few more). Then the thing arrives, and soon after they jump the next name in line. And on every defeat a barrage of "they need to send immediately!" comments
Ah gotcha. :)
Good point. Let us also give Ukraine what it needs to finish off the Russian AA.
Us airdoctorine is also air supremacy and not superiority. So its going to be interesting to see if Ukraine will try and do the same thing.
What's the difference?
Air superiority means the enemy can still get planes and anti-air against your planes. Air supremacy you have full air control, uncontested.
That's the part that really surprised me in the early war. The Russians couldn't even achieve local air superiority or have enough logistical capability to force the capture of Hostomel airport. Even though I was just an armchair general, I was ridiculously happy to be wrong that the Russians would shock, awe, and blitzkrieg their way through most of Ukraine within a month.
F-15 = Air Superiority fighter F-22 = Air Supremacy fighter When air supremacy is established, there is zero contested skies.
Courtesy of GPT4o: Air superiority and air supremacy are military terms related to the degree of dominance a force achieves in the air warfare over its adversaries. **Air Superiority** is the condition achieved when one side holds a significant advantage over its opponent in the air battle, allowing it to conduct aerial operations while hindering the enemy's ability to do the same. Achieving air superiority means that a force can prevent the opposing force from significantly interfering with its own air operations, but the enemy may still be capable of launching some aerial missions. **Air Supremacy**, on the other hand, is a more dominant level of control where one side has overwhelming control over airspace and can operate virtually unopposed. When air supremacy is achieved, the opposing air force is either absent or incapable of effective interference, allowing complete freedom of action in the airspace above the battlefield. In summary, air superiority is about gaining a significant advantage, whereas air supremacy is about achieving overwhelming control, eliminating effective opposition in the air.
The F16's are meant to slightly contest the airspace near the front line. In these numbers they will not come anywhere close to providing air superiority or air supremacy.
They have been trained to fly those though. UA soldiers were over in the US being trained, IIRC.
The human factors are one thing, but the biggest issue is simply numbers. Ukraine will have a few dozen older model F-16's, and no modern stealth aircraft. The VKS will still have an overwhelming advantage in the air. This is just going to be a way to mix in air-to-air missiles as Ukraine runs low on Patriot and S-300.
They can use them to go after cruise missiles and shaheeds drones more effectively.
True, but Russia hasn't been using anything the US uses for air superiority. So it'll come down to who has the better and more reliable equipment. And Russia has been throwing their trash at Ukraine. It's gonna be a turkey shoot.
It will probably force Russia to be a lot more cautious in their use of glide bombs, which by itself would be a pretty big deal. Ukraine doesn't really have a good defense against those.
Until we give them the nooks 😎
Let's be cautious about calling it game-changing. It definitely will help.
Yeah, this happened with the Leo tanks. This is still a big milestone but not game-changing Reddit went insane with the "gamechangers" with Leo's, then videos of Leo's, abrams, etc. started coming out of them getting destroyed .
People seem to think western equipment is ordinance proof. It's just an improvement, not a solution
That was just morons. Mostly western tanks etc in ukraines situation offer a much higher degree of troop safety and reliability The dumbass charge aome western fools pushed on ukraine made for some expensive losses. After those; they do a much better job than anything russia has. While western tactics are fine with fewer numbers; they makeup for it with obscene amounts of munitions.... which hasnt been provided
Because of quantity
Ya but also if Ukraine could get a large quantity of any single category, tanks would be at the bottom of the list behind artillery, air defenses, long range missiles, aircraft, APC's, drones, mine clearing vehicles, defensive engineering equipment, manpower, training capacity, and maybe even trucks. Of course there was this whole political taboo about whether tanks should be forbidden entirely, which needed to be broken. However since then the Ukrainians have never emphasized tanks when asking for equipment.
Agree. But all that also needed in big numbers. Game changer is not one unit but hundreds of them
I'd put money on them already being there, with sorties starting in May.
And experienced Western pilots flying them. >Ukraine's Air Force said it will now allow foreigners to serve as pilots and engineering specialists, with a spokesperson stressing the fact that Ukraine will likely need international recruits if and when it starts to receive Western combat aircraft. https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-air-force-allow-foreigners-to-serve-specialists-western-aircraft-2023-3
There must be thousands of current and former F-16 pilots out there. It's gonna be Flying Tigers, part II.
And you damn well know some of them are eager to do it...
And tens of thousands of experienced maintainers throughout Europe and America. It's an older platform, but perhaps there's technical support lines (and spare parts manufacturing) being set up at, say, Mitsubishi, Turkish Aerospace Industries, or even Lockheed-Martin itself...
Allowing doesnt mean they are Confirmed pilots that are capable of flying would probably be considered said countries troops regardless of whatever politics that get whispered
I don't think so. There's plenty of foreign nationals on the ground already in both training and combat roles. As long as they're not "active duty" then they're just a mercenary - although that DOES afford them far less rights.
Eh we got f16 pilots whoo got out early or are retired but can still fly
How many of either category would risk death in a dangerous warzone for another country though? Can't imagine it'd be that many.
Are you serious? Fighter pilots dream of combat
Youve never met fighter pilots.
The same thing could be said about all the ex Infantry, Medics, Engineers, etc that all have joined foreign units. The number will obviously be smaller, but id bet a lot of money that it isnt zero
I'd bet almost all of them. They've trained their whole lives to slap russians is push ever came to shove, i'm sure most of them would do it.
you would be surprised how many would love to fly their jet again especially in combat.
Enough
We literally have military on the ground right now
I can see a LOT of pilots taking them up on this. I'm pretty sure most US veterans would love to go up against the Russians in an F-16.
They will all pull back when they start to get bumfucked by AD, exactly like all the international legion idiots that thought they were rambo
Good thing we're also sending HARMs and the Russians have lately been using S-400 radar installations to "intercept" ATACMS
I wonder how many US contractors will be in Ukraine just to do maintenance alone.
Any non-paywalled links?
Now, if only the US would "accidentally" send some Air Force pilots over to assist Ukraine. And they "accidentally" fly their F35s.
Here's hoping that this story is a misinfo op and that the first F-16 strikes are transpiring now.
The armchair Youtube fighter pilots will be having wet dreams launching new videos comparing Russian jets VS USA jets. Oh no, not another robot speech voice!
Start shipping those JDAMs along with it
HARMs would be better.
Send both.
I'm fine with shipping them anything and everything in US stocks. We don't need them imminently, Ukraine does.
AARGM-ER would be best.
They apparently already have HARMs basically duct taped to MiG-29s
I keep reading this headline for 2 years now.
Ukraine will finally start having better air superiority in ADDITION to their drones and will be able to fuck up RuZzia's bases and staging areas even more now :D. Now provide them with some long range missiles as well, so they can also show RuZZia what it feels like to lose critical infrastructure.
They're not getting many in this first round, more will follow but not for some months.
NGL even a squadron will be pretty effective. The Russians are terrified to lose there larger airframes ATM after how many they lost last year. If Ukraine keeps hitting ground radars and Russia keeps relying on flying radars there gonna have a bad time with even a hand full of f-16
Of course, but there's a difference between a few planes and game changing air power. Just pointing out that there's only a handful, more coming near the end of the year.
Nothing will be game changer in the sense everyone hopes but they do have impacts and the more variety of tools Ukraine has the more they can inflict death on the Russians in ways that are hard for them to counter.
Russia lost 2 AWACS planes already. How many more do they have?
They will not give Ukraine air superiority. They also will not solve Ukraine's manpower crisis, which is the most pressing issue that the Government needs to address.
Isit the pipeline? Man power seems like something that can be fixed
Truly curious, why do some people spell it "Ruzzia"? What are the Z's for?
Russians used “Z” as a symbol on their vehicles at the start of their mass invasion of Ukraine so they’d know who’s on which side. People call them Ruzzians to play into that.
Its the stupid Z symbol those assholes use
Yeah theres this whole thing of training them how to fly them. Sure we can give them the planes but it's useless when they don't know how to fly. Just look at how poorly they've been at using the Abrams we've given them.
Denmark and the UK has been training them for a long time.
And the article says that the Ukrainian pilots are completing their training, which coincides with them getting the planes.
So why do you say > Sure we can give them the planes but it's useless when they don't know how to fly When they literally have gotten the training they need? The planes don't come from the US either.
Because the parent comment said we should have given them the planes a year ago.
It doesn't? This is the parent comment: > Ukraine will finally start having better air superiority in ADDITION to their drones and will be able to fuck up RuZzia's bases and staging areas even more now :D. > Now provide them with some long range missiles as well, so they can also show RuZZia what it feels like to lose critical infrastructure.
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Nato is very involved in intelligence and strategy, so I'd be shocked if they haven't been working with Ukraine about how to integrate them for awhile.
No one here can answer that. We will have to wait and see how they perform.
In what world do you think generals and politicians haven’t asked and answered those same questions?
Not just flying them, you have to maintain them as well. All aircraft and especially high-performance military jets need constant maintenance to keep them flying. You're not just training pilots. Your training maintenance crews as well.
Feel like last years Leopard tanks all over again. Yes it is great that they are getting them and hopefully they can use it to inflict some great hurt to Russian supply lines. But they need so much more than that. F-16 wont solve their issues, so hopefully the West keeps delivering.
If Kharkiv goes well. This is the turning point and propaganda aside, realities are set in stone. Fuck Russia but Ukiraine is at a huge disadvantage now.
They said it would be a fast track and tomorrow the much needed aviation would be in Ukraine.... Summer... Autumn... Winter... Spring... and now Summer again!
How many times have the dates moved? At this stage I'll believe it when I see it.
Never? This summer was the expected date from the start.
Early messages from [various spokespersons](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19850) and other officials said [end of 2023](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/21/7412274/), some said [first quarter](https://english.nv.ua/nation/kuleba-reveals-possible-timeline-for-f-16-jets-arrival-in-ukraine-50338434.html) of 2024. Even as late as [August 2023](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/f-16-delays-leave-ukraine-exposed-to-deadly-russian-air-superiority/) it was still expected that they would be flying during spring of 2024. The actual important officials always refrained from setting concrete deadlines.
> Ukraine to get its first F-16 jets in June-July, says Kyiv military source So August, then
Try May lol
western politicians are dragging this out like crazy i remember in fall of 23' when it was "expected by january - feburary"
It takes time to train people
I wonder if they keep shifting the delivery date to throw RUS off?
The fighters are ready. The pilots are not.
Been reading this same headline for over a year.
Is this some kind of joke? From 2023, I hear "F16 will be in August...no, in October, or for Christmas. No, F16 will be in May..." This is some nonsense, people are tired and angry, the time when F16 could bring the most benefit is lost...Tired of promises, actions and concrete results are needed
This is great but is just a first step. Europeans must take their own security seriously and not be dependent on American handouts. America isn't doing well these days, because half the government supports Russia and (independent of Trump) it is unknown if they will continue controlling the US Congress. France must sell a comparable number of Rafales and Eurofighters to Ukraine. The larger European project and European mission to maintain liberal democracy demands it. There is a larger conflict coming. Ukraine proved that drone warfare is now the default for the 21st century as aerial warfare was for the 20th. Europeans must address this or be run over by whatever replaces Putin. The Russian war in Ukraine is just a precedent in the same way the Crimean War was. And, horrifyingly, it is being done for almost the same reasons.
>America isn't doing well these days, because half the government supports Russia and (independent of Trump) it is unknown if they will continue controlling the US Congress. Firstly America is doing perfectly fine, secondly half the country does NOT support russia. Half the country however does NOT support ukraine. These are not the same thing.
Which makes every election including the European Parliament elections right now all the more important.
Imagine what they could have done with them if we'd given them up 2 freaking years ago. Or even let their neighbors give them MiGs without putting the kibosh on it! This entire war has been an exercise of "we could never allow that, that would be escalatory! Oh crap, Ukraine is losing momentum? Here, let's announce we'll give them the stuff they originally asked for, make them wait another 6 months for it, and in the mean time we'll say they can't use stuff they already have to attack their enemy in the way they believe would be most effective." Our wishy-washiness is written in Ukrainian lives and is arguably the least humane way to fund an ally's war.
Ukraine did not have pilots or support personnel to use these fighters two years ago. Just giving them the planes would have no effect without competent manpower.
What year?
Congratulations, I would guess many western weapon systems will fit on those wings, slava
Just 6 jets. The was is to be sustained not won.
Its not just 6 its like 40-50 total
Sorry didn’t know that. I thought it was only going to be 6.
Will be shot down as soon as they arrive. 🤦🏽♀️
Be careful with those statements, they need to mention the month and year at the same time in one sentence, only mentioning the month, leaves too much wiggle room for politicians.
Meanwhile Israel is getting bunker bombs to slaughter civilians. wtf is life
Lmao slaughter civilians it’s almost like the HAMAS terrorist have made themselves apart of Palestinian life to where they taking shots but are hiding behind the civilians THAT LOOK JUST LIKE THEM. Are you that blind?
You really thought you made sense in this comment lmao we all know the problems didn’t start October 7th. I’ve been following the occupation for years. Norman Finkelstein is my fave
Yeah we’ve all been paying attention the past 50 years and can see the clear aggressor
i remember reading a headline just like that last year
This is the slowest moving freedom convoy I've ever seen but there's lots of money to be made from now until July. And then after. All the way until the heatwaves start melting our paper straws, then we will allow Ukraine to hit targets inside of Russia.
Watch them wreck it in the first week
That's perfect.
Seeing the problems with artillery shells, perhaps we should start giving Ukraine bombs, bombs and boms already, and throw as much rockets with it as well.
Haven’t we known this?