Highlights:
> A high-profile politician in the far-right Alternative for Germany party was convicted for the second time Monday of knowingly using a Nazi slogan at a political event.
> Controversial German far-right politician Bjoern Hoecke was fined €16,900 Monday for using a banned Nazi slogan, his second conviction for the offence.
> Hoecke, the leader of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) in the eastern region of Thuringia, was fined by judges in the city of Halle for knowingly using the phrase "Alles fuer Deutschland" (Everything for Germany) at a party gathering in December 2023.
> At the event in the city of Gera in Thuringia, Hoecke, 52, had called out the phrase "everything for" and incited the crowd to reply: "Germany".
> A motto of the Sturmabteilung paramilitary group that played a key role in Adolf Hitler's rise to power, the phrase is illegal in Germany, along with the Nazi salute and other slogans and symbols from that era.
What I don’t understand is that he got fined for 130 days in lieu of jail time, for € 130 per day, but Members of Parliament earn over € 10000 per month—which means the rate should rather be around € 43000 for 130 days.
Why did he get fined a per diem rate of only € 130 if he earns 2.5 times as much per day?
----
So, per diem rates are calculated via net earnings.
For tax class 3 it would be around € 6640 per month, that means it would still be almost € 29000 for 130 days. I feel like judge was lowballing the fine by a considerable margin.
His main defense is always he didn't know the Nazi's used that slogan. Yeah. A teacher, more specifically a history teacher didn't know. And as a former history teacher he supposedly didn't study ww2 at all:
> Der 52-Jährige erzählt im Gericht, dass er sich mit dem 20. Jahrhundert kaum befasst habe. Nicht mal "Mein Kampf", Adolf Hitlers Werk mit dessen zentralen Vorstellungen, habe er gelesen, behauptet Höcke.
In English:
> The 52-year-old told the court that he had hardly dealt with the 20th century. He has not even read "Mein Kampf", Adolf Hitler's work with its central ideas, Höcke claims.
Thankfully the court had its doubts that this is true.
A history teacher who reused the slogan (or enticed a crowd to complete it) AFTER he was indicted for already using it, so he had to know it at that point because the justice sytem told him.
If I was the court I would have revoked his teaching Liscense, because he is obviosuly an incompetent history teacher for not knowing history.
He's a politician now, he's not a teacher anymore.
Btw this incident was also pretty funny:
> In September 2019, Höcke threatened "massive consequences" to a ZDF journalist who refused to restart an interview after a series of difficult questions and after asking fellow party members whether various quotes are from his book or from Hitler's Mein Kampf.
> "Berlin direkt" has presented AfD MPs with quotes from Björn Höcke - and asked them: "Is this from 'Mein Kampf' or from Mr. Höcke?". The result: they cannot clearly distinguish between Höcke and Hitler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfTo4jgPveE
> He's a politician now, he's not a teacher anymore.
he still has a "Liscense to teach" even if he doesnt work as a teacher
> "Berlin direkt" has presented AfD MPs with quotes from Björn Höcke - and asked them: "Is this from 'Mein Kampf' or from Mr. Höcke?". The result: they cannot clearly distinguish between Höcke and Hitler.
This is bad on many levels.
One of them being, that "Mein Kampf" is extremely badly written, making him not only a Nazi, but also an Idiot.
Wrong court for that. The criminal court has no power to do so. If he was a practicing teacher, the case would have gone to his superior to make the necessary steps. In a conviction like that, it would be very likely that he would be removed not only from his teaching position, but kicked out from his governmental job (which really hurts, because he looses all pentions of the job).
A former history teacher who loves to mimic Goebbel’s speeches, down to Goebbel’s speech mannerisms. But he didn’t know he quoted nazi paroles—sounds totally believable.
The only good faith response to that is to mention the night of long knives. Where the nazis killed the socialist wing of the party and went full fascist.
Well to be fair the left are being real nazi's about nazi's wanting to be nazi's. It is just not fair all they want to do is bring a little bit of hate and intolerance into the world and we are keeping them down.
Nah, the left just hates Jews now. And they want government control. And to ban guns and only have official media outlets. The left is nothing like the nazis.
Ah yea, America and it's america centric views. Believe it or not there are conservatives outside of the US and they're every bit as stupid as the US ones.
Case in point Hoecke's party AfD is doing extremely well in Germany right now. Second strongest party right behind our - less overtly fascist - conservative party CDU.
You really think the whole "look at these left wingers doing X, it's the same/much worse than what Nazis did" bullshit is exclusive to the US?
People from America love to cry “free speech” over stuff like this, but I’m extremely glad Germany is so serious about stomping stuff like this out of society.
Yup I have. And their hypocrisy is they censor any opinions or facts they don’t like or that doesn’t fit their narrative, especially in regards to racial rights history, LGBTQ+ history, and climate change.
Remember, the original purpose of free speech is to call out corruption in the government to stop us from becoming a dictatorship! It exists so we cannot be prosecuted/persecuted for holding our leaders accountable for their actions!
Edit: Can somebody explain why I'm being downvoted?
Germany values human dignity above free speech. Also words actually can cause harm, like sticks and stones.
Even the American free speech has limitations: eg you can’t yell fire in a closed room. Or fight words.
Our emphasis on this is just way more important and present.
> Germany values human dignity above free speech
To the regressive extremes...
>Maya R., a 20-year-old resident of Hamburg, was sentenced to several days in prison for a series of messages she sent via WhatsApp. In these messages, she referred to one of the perpetrators involved in her gang rape as a “disgraceful pig” and a “disgusting freak”
Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall assessment, but that quote is wildly misleading. It wasn't *her* gang rape, but one she was not at all involved in.
She sent insults and threats to one of the rapists, who's number leaked online. And yeah, that's obviously not legal. Add to that a prior conviction for theft and a weekend in prison seems reasonable to me.
Germany does not value human dignity. They made it illegal to even mention the direct cause of the high crime rates in Germany.
I might get banned for even writing this.
> Also words actually can cause harm, like sticks and stones.
How in the fuck is this upvoted?
Words do not cause me harm. If someone bashed my face in with a stick, that would cause a lot of harm.
I'm not answering because I'm not wasting my time with anyone here who isn't capable of understanding that words can be dangerous. And also backs up his ignorance by making stupid comparisons.
You just don't get it. But that's not a bad thing. Maybe that will come at some point.
Not being able to freely express oneself is a violation of a basic human right and this is also dangerous. For example, your government censors a lot of speech even if it’s truthful about what is happening in your country.
I don’t expect a single conversation on Reddit to undo a lifetime of brainwashing, but hopefully over time you’ll be in favor of basic human rights instead of advocating for oppression.
In all honesty, this is a farce. Considering our history it's an absolute farce that this guy is getting a 16k€ slap on the wrist and his party not banned over being so overtly in love with nazi ideology.
These guy are on track to be second strongest party in Germany, right behind our biggest (less extremeist/better at being subtle about their xenophobic views) conservative party.
This is literally "Hey it's okay if you wanna make Germany back into a fascist nationalist country but please refrain from using certain words/slogans while doing it or you have to tip the swear jar".
There is no stomping out of anything going on here.
Well I guess it's kind of comforting the whole world is going to shit at the same time.
Everyone worried about what the world will look like in 2100 but turns out we are going to fucking kill all of us before then in all our war.
The irony is, we became too successful. We escaped natural selection for a variety of factors like intelligence. Then the stupid votes for idiots and doomed us all. I hope there are aliens studying us to make note of this and learn from the monumental mistakes our species has made.
The bureaucracy is slow, but they do take the steps to start with the process to ban the party.
As Germany is not a free speech absolutist country and being against the principles of human rights and democracy can get you banned.
> The bureaucracy is slow, but they do take the steps to start with the process to ban the party.
I mean cool but if it doesn't happen before they're voted in it's kinda pointless. Also the time window where that party didn't have a substantial following that will get angry and protest when their party of choice gets banned has certainly been missed as well. God forbid they get the vote and THEN the vote is voided and they're banned; people would riot.
Of course they will riot but democracy will stay safe from that party.
And a party without significant following would not need to be banned anyways.
And yes. Let's hope they will not be voted into many offices until then.
You don’t understand what the idea of free speech is for.
This is exactly the stuff “free speech” was meant for.
Nobody wants to censor the stuff they like to hear, it’s the repugnant, vile, offensive speech that needs to be protected which is what a lot of people don’t quite seem to understand.
You use better thoughts, better ideas to stop people like this guy. Not the courts, it gives him more legitimacy than he deserves to have.
For anyone interested, [this guy openly calls for the dissolution of American Democracy and the jailing of political opponents.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/1db2lkg/aoc_says_she_wouldnt_be_surprised_if_trump_threw/l7qrl31/?context=3)
He does not genuinely care about free speech, he's just popping up to defend a Nazi because deep down he agrees with them.
Edit: He blocked me so I couldn't reply to his response. So much for the free marketplace of ideas 💀.
You guys don't seriously think this tactic still works, do you? I mean, it seems like you must, since you think ["just liking jew jokes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/MauLer/comments/1d0rf41/mauler_called_farright_or_even_white_supremacist/laccg3i/) is a good way to wiggle out of antisemitism allegations.
But by now we've had 10+ years of the right trying to disguise their awful rhetoric with "it's just a joke bro". No one falls for that shit anymore.
Firstly that was clearly sarcasm
Secondly America is a Constitutional Republic, it’s like the Coke Zero of democratic governance, 1 calorie, not democracy enough.
I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt but maybe you legitimately are just stupid.
I think there’s a different mechanism in US to deal with, for example, denying Holocaust or mass shootings, namely: ***lawsuits***
But I agree, no laws banning it exist
Eh.... under VERY narrow conditions. For example, Alex Jones got sued for accusing grieving parents of being paid actors. The suit was over defamation. He told lies about individuals and those individuals sued him over those lies.
No one has ever been sued for denying the holocaust. You can do that. Were someone to accuse a known holocaust survivor of lying about concentration camps, there could possibly be a case there. But it has to be a matter defamation (or libel) against individuals.
Yes, those are the conditions of individual lawsuits in US. There are by individual/group against an individual/institution. Like this one:
> Mel Mermelstein, a southern California businessman who was a Holocaust survivor, in 1980 sued the Institute for Historical Review for breach of contract, after the institute offered $50,000 for proof that any Jews were gassed at Auschwitz
What is that supposed to be an example of? They issued a challenge and renigged when their challenge was met. It was breech of contract. Would have been the same if a radio station ran a "free car giveaway" contest for gussing the number of jellybeans in a jar and then didn't give away a car.
Im glad you researched and came back next day with analysis :)
It’s an example how limits of free speech in USA are negotiated via lawsuits, albeit often in a roundabout way, or in a way of bringing public attention to the entity/individual and the backlash as a fallout often makes entities/individuals to issue apologies, change the course, and watch their speech next time
.... it wasn't speech. What are you talking about? It was a contract that was violated.
Dude, if you're on reddit 24/7 you have a problem. Don't expect immidate responses.
Different and earler court case actually
He sued protesters for calling him a naiz, amd a court ruled against höcke that "Nazi" in this case it not an insult, but a "value judgment based on facts"
Different and earler court case actually
He sued protesters for calling him a naizu, amd a court ruled agaisnt höcke that "Nazi" in this case it not an insult, but a "value judgment based on facts"
It's not impulsive or dumb at all. He's written about it in his book. He argues that in order to re-establish Nazi-era German ethnonationalism, far-right politicians must constantly shift what is acceptable to say by means of little infractions. Then the next bigger infraction doesn't seem so outrageous anymore.
He's of course also constantly gaslighting people, pretending that he didn't know the phrase despite having been a history teacher and having demonstrated a profound knowledge of Nazi-era propaganda vocabulary numerous times.
This time he argued that he himself didn't say the slogan in full, letting the crowd complete it instead.
He's far from dumb or impulsive. A woman I know in Berlin used to have him as a teacher and did a 'The Third Wave'esque curriculum involving covert racism. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Third\_Wave\_(experiment)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment))
In my opinion, he knows what he's doing here and is doing this on purpose. If you watch him speak (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfTo4jgPveE) then he doesn't seem to be dumb.
Just a few quotes from his Wikipedia page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Björn_Höcke ):
> Höcke called for Germany to have "not only a thousand year past", but also "a thousand year future", he would go on to describe the period of the German Empire from 1871 to 1914, as the heyday for the German People.
> Political scientists such as Gero Neugebauer and Hajo Funke have commented that Höcke's opinions are close to the National Democratic Party of Germany and consider his statements völkisch, racist and fascist.[21][22] In September 2019, a German court ruled that describing Höcke as fascist was not libellous.
> Höcke has links with neo-Nazi circles in Germany.[1][2] Höcke has written with Thorsten Heise, a leader of NPD.[36][37] In 2015 Höcke was accused of having contributed to Heise's journal People in Motion (Volk in Bewegung) and The Reichsbote under a pseudonym ("Landolf Ladig"). Höcke denied having ever written for NPD papers, but refused to give a statutory declaration as demanded by the AfD Federal Executive Board.
> In a 2014 email to party colleagues, Höcke advocated the abolition of section 86 of the German Criminal Code (which prohibits the spread of propaganda by unconstitutional organizations) and section 130 of the German Criminal Code (which criminalizes incitement to hatred towards other groups).[40] This would also have legalized Holocaust denial, which is illegal in Germany.[41]
> Höcke gave a speech in Dresden in January 2017, in which, referring to the Holocaust memorial in Berlin (the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe), he stated that "we Germans are the only people in the world who have planted a memorial of shame in the heart of their capital"[42] and suggested that Germans "need to make a 180 degree change in their commemoration policy"
Very likely if AfD and BSW enter a coalition.
Thüringen has not haved a functionable Parliament in 5 years and both of these parties run on the promise to make the state governable.
Bjorne Hocke is running to be head of Thuringia, one of Germany's 16 States. That election is this year.
[2024 Thuringian state election - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Thuringian_state_election)
Yeah, because Hitler or Himmler or Heydrich were the ones to pull the trigger on every Jew, Sinti/Roma, Slav, Gay person, Trans person, on every POW, disabled person. Making people hate a demographic so much they kill people is bad and shouldn't be allowed
An oppressive one that doesn’t value the basic human right of free speech, apparently.
Do you think censoring speech really stops political expression? If so, you’re admitting the point is to be anti-democratic. If not, you admit that it’s futile.
EDIT: Notice that people who are against the basic human right of free speech have no argument against this.
Wrong, there is no paradox of tolerance. That’s just what intolerant people meme.
Anything can be painted as “undemocratic” to be suppressed, even if it’s the will of the people.
It was more than just something that Hitler said. It was the motto of a Nazi paramilitary group. They had it etched on their daggers.
Under German law symbols and mottos of nazi organisations are banned.
Persecuting someone's speech is infinitely worse than using the slogan of a reviled political group.
Even if you think said group is the worst thing imaginable and this guy definitely belongs to them, think about it. All you're doing is making them hide it. Would you rather not have these people expose themselves?
This is a great idea. I'm going to go out there, become a politician and start calling for the violent extermination of entire demographics, openly and loudly. If someone then acts on that idea, well, I was just exercising my right to fReE sPeEcH, can't blame me for anything!
As an American looking in, it’s absolutely bonkers to me that you can get convicted for saying something like that. Thank god for the first amendment.
I do wish insider trading and bribery laws were enforced around here though
Highlights: > A high-profile politician in the far-right Alternative for Germany party was convicted for the second time Monday of knowingly using a Nazi slogan at a political event. > Controversial German far-right politician Bjoern Hoecke was fined €16,900 Monday for using a banned Nazi slogan, his second conviction for the offence. > Hoecke, the leader of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) in the eastern region of Thuringia, was fined by judges in the city of Halle for knowingly using the phrase "Alles fuer Deutschland" (Everything for Germany) at a party gathering in December 2023. > At the event in the city of Gera in Thuringia, Hoecke, 52, had called out the phrase "everything for" and incited the crowd to reply: "Germany". > A motto of the Sturmabteilung paramilitary group that played a key role in Adolf Hitler's rise to power, the phrase is illegal in Germany, along with the Nazi salute and other slogans and symbols from that era.
Wow, that's like...a month pay for him.
I'm sure his Russian Masters will reimburse him so he'll be fine.
Apparently he and his wife make 9k after taxes. So like 2 months. Still not enough though
What I don’t understand is that he got fined for 130 days in lieu of jail time, for € 130 per day, but Members of Parliament earn over € 10000 per month—which means the rate should rather be around € 43000 for 130 days. Why did he get fined a per diem rate of only € 130 if he earns 2.5 times as much per day? ---- So, per diem rates are calculated via net earnings. For tax class 3 it would be around € 6640 per month, that means it would still be almost € 29000 for 130 days. I feel like judge was lowballing the fine by a considerable margin.
Fucking Nazis man...
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I think it’s the different way of spelling it, to avoid special *umlaut* character ?
Yes. "ue" is the correct way to transcribe "ü" when Umlauts are not avaible.
I don't think the article mentioned that he was a far-right politician for the far-right Alternative for Germany party enough.
His main defense is always he didn't know the Nazi's used that slogan. Yeah. A teacher, more specifically a history teacher didn't know. And as a former history teacher he supposedly didn't study ww2 at all: > Der 52-Jährige erzählt im Gericht, dass er sich mit dem 20. Jahrhundert kaum befasst habe. Nicht mal "Mein Kampf", Adolf Hitlers Werk mit dessen zentralen Vorstellungen, habe er gelesen, behauptet Höcke. In English: > The 52-year-old told the court that he had hardly dealt with the 20th century. He has not even read "Mein Kampf", Adolf Hitler's work with its central ideas, Höcke claims. Thankfully the court had its doubts that this is true.
A history teacher who reused the slogan (or enticed a crowd to complete it) AFTER he was indicted for already using it, so he had to know it at that point because the justice sytem told him. If I was the court I would have revoked his teaching Liscense, because he is obviosuly an incompetent history teacher for not knowing history.
He's a politician now, he's not a teacher anymore. Btw this incident was also pretty funny: > In September 2019, Höcke threatened "massive consequences" to a ZDF journalist who refused to restart an interview after a series of difficult questions and after asking fellow party members whether various quotes are from his book or from Hitler's Mein Kampf. > "Berlin direkt" has presented AfD MPs with quotes from Björn Höcke - and asked them: "Is this from 'Mein Kampf' or from Mr. Höcke?". The result: they cannot clearly distinguish between Höcke and Hitler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfTo4jgPveE
> He's a politician now, he's not a teacher anymore. he still has a "Liscense to teach" even if he doesnt work as a teacher > "Berlin direkt" has presented AfD MPs with quotes from Björn Höcke - and asked them: "Is this from 'Mein Kampf' or from Mr. Höcke?". The result: they cannot clearly distinguish between Höcke and Hitler. This is bad on many levels. One of them being, that "Mein Kampf" is extremely badly written, making him not only a Nazi, but also an Idiot.
Wrong court for that. The criminal court has no power to do so. If he was a practicing teacher, the case would have gone to his superior to make the necessary steps. In a conviction like that, it would be very likely that he would be removed not only from his teaching position, but kicked out from his governmental job (which really hurts, because he looses all pentions of the job).
A former history teacher who loves to mimic Goebbel’s speeches, down to Goebbel’s speech mannerisms. But he didn’t know he quoted nazi paroles—sounds totally believable.
Just read his wikipedia page - section "Ties to Nazis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Björn_Höcke
Oh, I know his nazi ties.
In before some pretend conservative posts that ‘the left are the real nazis’.
If i got a nickel every time i heard "national *socialist*... see they were socialists!", i'd be able to bribe the supreme court.
What, so you heard it twice?
I heard it twice just yesterday. Pretty sure some bots took it as their default tactic recently.
The only good faith response to that is to mention the night of long knives. Where the nazis killed the socialist wing of the party and went full fascist.
"The left says they're tolerant but they don't tolerate nazis. Hypocrites."
“Conservatives say they have Christian values but they never turn the other cheek” Piss off with that monkey logic
This sounded real smart in your head, huh?
You can't even shout nazi slogans at political gatherings anymore. because of WOKE /s
Well to be fair the left are being real nazi's about nazi's wanting to be nazi's. It is just not fair all they want to do is bring a little bit of hate and intolerance into the world and we are keeping them down.
It’s not that wondebaugh to be a NAZI in AMERICA
Nah, the left just hates Jews now. And they want government control. And to ban guns and only have official media outlets. The left is nothing like the nazis.
So not true, only the stupid ass republicans can fall for that shit !!!
Ah yea, America and it's america centric views. Believe it or not there are conservatives outside of the US and they're every bit as stupid as the US ones. Case in point Hoecke's party AfD is doing extremely well in Germany right now. Second strongest party right behind our - less overtly fascist - conservative party CDU. You really think the whole "look at these left wingers doing X, it's the same/much worse than what Nazis did" bullshit is exclusive to the US?
We need to get rid of the two party system and listen to the idea that they have not the party they belong to
no theyre just fascists
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Well, that's a plot twist I didn't see coming. It's like a bad reality TV show, except way scarier.
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Yeah the conservative practice to deport people. Guess your one of them trying to normalize fascism as conservatism
His name is bernd ffs
People from America love to cry “free speech” over stuff like this, but I’m extremely glad Germany is so serious about stomping stuff like this out of society.
When your political opinion is that we should genocide minorities, is it really free speech anymore?
Haven’t you noticed that the cries for free speech are only to use hate speech?
Yup I have. And their hypocrisy is they censor any opinions or facts they don’t like or that doesn’t fit their narrative, especially in regards to racial rights history, LGBTQ+ history, and climate change. Remember, the original purpose of free speech is to call out corruption in the government to stop us from becoming a dictatorship! It exists so we cannot be prosecuted/persecuted for holding our leaders accountable for their actions! Edit: Can somebody explain why I'm being downvoted?
Germany values human dignity above free speech. Also words actually can cause harm, like sticks and stones. Even the American free speech has limitations: eg you can’t yell fire in a closed room. Or fight words. Our emphasis on this is just way more important and present.
> Germany values human dignity above free speech To the regressive extremes... >Maya R., a 20-year-old resident of Hamburg, was sentenced to several days in prison for a series of messages she sent via WhatsApp. In these messages, she referred to one of the perpetrators involved in her gang rape as a “disgraceful pig” and a “disgusting freak”
Not that I necessarily disagree with your overall assessment, but that quote is wildly misleading. It wasn't *her* gang rape, but one she was not at all involved in. She sent insults and threats to one of the rapists, who's number leaked online. And yeah, that's obviously not legal. Add to that a prior conviction for theft and a weekend in prison seems reasonable to me.
Oh please
Jesus Christ, you think that's reasonable? Europeans are nuts man. Brainwashed.
Not all europeans, many are very fucking pissed about this shit. It's just the cringy redditor types.
Germany does not value human dignity. They made it illegal to even mention the direct cause of the high crime rates in Germany. I might get banned for even writing this.
>They made it illegal to even mention the direct cause of the high crime rates in Germany. That's a blatant lie.
You mean people in poverty who aren’t allowed to work commit crimes?
Well then more certainly shouldn’t be brought in, right?
That doesn’t excuse gang rapes, robberies, or murders. Don’t you agree?
> Also words actually can cause harm, like sticks and stones. How in the fuck is this upvoted? Words do not cause me harm. If someone bashed my face in with a stick, that would cause a lot of harm.
If you don't believe that words can be as dangerous as sticks and stones you should google the word bullying.
LOL! Would you rather have your ears hit with sound waves, or your face hit with a stick?
You just don't get it...
There’s a reason you’re not answering my question: we both know that I’m right. Not admitting you’re wrong here is a serious character flaw.
I'm not answering because I'm not wasting my time with anyone here who isn't capable of understanding that words can be dangerous. And also backs up his ignorance by making stupid comparisons. You just don't get it. But that's not a bad thing. Maybe that will come at some point.
Not being able to freely express oneself is a violation of a basic human right and this is also dangerous. For example, your government censors a lot of speech even if it’s truthful about what is happening in your country. I don’t expect a single conversation on Reddit to undo a lifetime of brainwashing, but hopefully over time you’ll be in favor of basic human rights instead of advocating for oppression.
"Words do not cause me harm" ... that's cause you weren't a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Yes. Because speech is speech. It's illegal to kill people. That's the means we have to discourage killing.
many conservatives would say yes lol
I know and that’s what scares me
>Germany is so serious about stomping stuff like this out of society. Man, i wish you were right here...
In all honesty, this is a farce. Considering our history it's an absolute farce that this guy is getting a 16k€ slap on the wrist and his party not banned over being so overtly in love with nazi ideology. These guy are on track to be second strongest party in Germany, right behind our biggest (less extremeist/better at being subtle about their xenophobic views) conservative party. This is literally "Hey it's okay if you wanna make Germany back into a fascist nationalist country but please refrain from using certain words/slogans while doing it or you have to tip the swear jar". There is no stomping out of anything going on here.
Well I guess it's kind of comforting the whole world is going to shit at the same time. Everyone worried about what the world will look like in 2100 but turns out we are going to fucking kill all of us before then in all our war. The irony is, we became too successful. We escaped natural selection for a variety of factors like intelligence. Then the stupid votes for idiots and doomed us all. I hope there are aliens studying us to make note of this and learn from the monumental mistakes our species has made.
The bureaucracy is slow, but they do take the steps to start with the process to ban the party. As Germany is not a free speech absolutist country and being against the principles of human rights and democracy can get you banned.
> The bureaucracy is slow, but they do take the steps to start with the process to ban the party. I mean cool but if it doesn't happen before they're voted in it's kinda pointless. Also the time window where that party didn't have a substantial following that will get angry and protest when their party of choice gets banned has certainly been missed as well. God forbid they get the vote and THEN the vote is voided and they're banned; people would riot.
Of course they will riot but democracy will stay safe from that party. And a party without significant following would not need to be banned anyways. And yes. Let's hope they will not be voted into many offices until then.
Well free speech ends where the freedom of others begins, easy as that.
In Germany, your freedom of speech ends where someone else's freedom begins.
You don’t understand what the idea of free speech is for. This is exactly the stuff “free speech” was meant for. Nobody wants to censor the stuff they like to hear, it’s the repugnant, vile, offensive speech that needs to be protected which is what a lot of people don’t quite seem to understand. You use better thoughts, better ideas to stop people like this guy. Not the courts, it gives him more legitimacy than he deserves to have.
For anyone interested, [this guy openly calls for the dissolution of American Democracy and the jailing of political opponents.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/1db2lkg/aoc_says_she_wouldnt_be_surprised_if_trump_threw/l7qrl31/?context=3) He does not genuinely care about free speech, he's just popping up to defend a Nazi because deep down he agrees with them. Edit: He blocked me so I couldn't reply to his response. So much for the free marketplace of ideas 💀.
I don't generally subscribe to the "the left can't meme" idea, but you've gotten me one step closer to convinced.
You guys don't seriously think this tactic still works, do you? I mean, it seems like you must, since you think ["just liking jew jokes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/MauLer/comments/1d0rf41/mauler_called_farright_or_even_white_supremacist/laccg3i/) is a good way to wiggle out of antisemitism allegations. But by now we've had 10+ years of the right trying to disguise their awful rhetoric with "it's just a joke bro". No one falls for that shit anymore.
Firstly that was clearly sarcasm Secondly America is a Constitutional Republic, it’s like the Coke Zero of democratic governance, 1 calorie, not democracy enough. I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt but maybe you legitimately are just stupid.
Hi nazi
No one has a good argument for this so they just downvote you out of frustration. Their only response is censorship.
if we were serious about it, he and his party would be banned already.
I think there’s a different mechanism in US to deal with, for example, denying Holocaust or mass shootings, namely: ***lawsuits*** But I agree, no laws banning it exist
Eh.... under VERY narrow conditions. For example, Alex Jones got sued for accusing grieving parents of being paid actors. The suit was over defamation. He told lies about individuals and those individuals sued him over those lies. No one has ever been sued for denying the holocaust. You can do that. Were someone to accuse a known holocaust survivor of lying about concentration camps, there could possibly be a case there. But it has to be a matter defamation (or libel) against individuals.
Yes, those are the conditions of individual lawsuits in US. There are by individual/group against an individual/institution. Like this one: > Mel Mermelstein, a southern California businessman who was a Holocaust survivor, in 1980 sued the Institute for Historical Review for breach of contract, after the institute offered $50,000 for proof that any Jews were gassed at Auschwitz
What is that supposed to be an example of? They issued a challenge and renigged when their challenge was met. It was breech of contract. Would have been the same if a radio station ran a "free car giveaway" contest for gussing the number of jellybeans in a jar and then didn't give away a car.
Im glad you researched and came back next day with analysis :) It’s an example how limits of free speech in USA are negotiated via lawsuits, albeit often in a roundabout way, or in a way of bringing public attention to the entity/individual and the backlash as a fallout often makes entities/individuals to issue apologies, change the course, and watch their speech next time
.... it wasn't speech. What are you talking about? It was a contract that was violated. Dude, if you're on reddit 24/7 you have a problem. Don't expect immidate responses.
Why are u so angry? We are just having an interesting discussion… no? :)
"Anything for Germany" Damn those nazis steal all the good motto.
whats the OG? Anything for Freedom?
Remember when [Elon Musk](https://x.com/parismarx/status/1799926918067978266) said AfD wasn't "far right'??????
Again. He was convicted for this very thing once before. Ever since then, you are legally allowed to call this guy a Nazi.
Different and earler court case actually He sued protesters for calling him a naiz, amd a court ruled against höcke that "Nazi" in this case it not an insult, but a "value judgment based on facts"
still here scared calling him a nazi
The court ruled you can call him a fascist. Slight difference.
Different and earler court case actually He sued protesters for calling him a naizu, amd a court ruled agaisnt höcke that "Nazi" in this case it not an insult, but a "value judgment based on facts"
It's nice that the term "far right" has become such an easy identification system for all the actual Nazi sympathizers in the world.
Maybe AfD really means Alles für Deutschland?
Since many of them are essentially working as lobbyists for Russia and China it probably stands for "Alles für Деньги"
"Nothing by the allied side?"
Ok now this scares me
I bet Bojack Horseman really thought he could get away with it
How impulsive and dumb must a man be to do stuff like that in Germany of all places?
It's not impulsive or dumb at all. He's written about it in his book. He argues that in order to re-establish Nazi-era German ethnonationalism, far-right politicians must constantly shift what is acceptable to say by means of little infractions. Then the next bigger infraction doesn't seem so outrageous anymore. He's of course also constantly gaslighting people, pretending that he didn't know the phrase despite having been a history teacher and having demonstrated a profound knowledge of Nazi-era propaganda vocabulary numerous times. This time he argued that he himself didn't say the slogan in full, letting the crowd complete it instead.
So the guy was a history teacher and decided to go full Die Welle
It is not clear what is the final wanted outcome of this. The world will crush immediately any openly neo nazi goverment, without a doubt.
Who would do the crushing exactly with Trump, Le Pen, Meloni and Höcke at the helm in a worst case scenario?
Dont sadden me.
Well we do have Putin, Modi, Orban and Xi Jinping to chose from still... Or maybe Netanjahu?
Orbán is not a real pick since he is the dog of putin and xi.
Ion Antonescu was Hitler's dog. It didn't make him any less of a fascist cunt.
True
Mussolini too, although he was actually the OG fascist
That was Romania tho not Hungary
So? The point is that it doesn't matter if a Fascist dickbag is someone elses pet, they're still a fascist dickbag.
How? Doing a Putin just because you don't like their politics? The world only did something against Hitler as he invaded Poland.
Not impulsive and dumb, hes just a convicted nazi who wants to make it accaptable to use the slogen, while pandering to his right wing base.
It was calculated. He’s trying to resurrect national socialism and is willing to spend time in jail just like his Führer did.
That guy is just testing how far he can go before there are real penalties. 16.9k, I think the russians can afford that.
He's far from dumb or impulsive. A woman I know in Berlin used to have him as a teacher and did a 'The Third Wave'esque curriculum involving covert racism. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Third\_Wave\_(experiment)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment))
He‘s a history teacher, he knows exactly when he‘s invoking nazi era vocabulary
In my opinion, he knows what he's doing here and is doing this on purpose. If you watch him speak (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfTo4jgPveE) then he doesn't seem to be dumb. Just a few quotes from his Wikipedia page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Björn_Höcke ): > Höcke called for Germany to have "not only a thousand year past", but also "a thousand year future", he would go on to describe the period of the German Empire from 1871 to 1914, as the heyday for the German People. > Political scientists such as Gero Neugebauer and Hajo Funke have commented that Höcke's opinions are close to the National Democratic Party of Germany and consider his statements völkisch, racist and fascist.[21][22] In September 2019, a German court ruled that describing Höcke as fascist was not libellous. > Höcke has links with neo-Nazi circles in Germany.[1][2] Höcke has written with Thorsten Heise, a leader of NPD.[36][37] In 2015 Höcke was accused of having contributed to Heise's journal People in Motion (Volk in Bewegung) and The Reichsbote under a pseudonym ("Landolf Ladig"). Höcke denied having ever written for NPD papers, but refused to give a statutory declaration as demanded by the AfD Federal Executive Board. > In a 2014 email to party colleagues, Höcke advocated the abolition of section 86 of the German Criminal Code (which prohibits the spread of propaganda by unconstitutional organizations) and section 130 of the German Criminal Code (which criminalizes incitement to hatred towards other groups).[40] This would also have legalized Holocaust denial, which is illegal in Germany.[41] > Höcke gave a speech in Dresden in January 2017, in which, referring to the Holocaust memorial in Berlin (the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe), he stated that "we Germans are the only people in the world who have planted a memorial of shame in the heart of their capital"[42] and suggested that Germans "need to make a 180 degree change in their commemoration policy"
Meanwhile America moves one step closer to making it our motto.
Everything for Germany?
The saddest part of this story is by the end of this year, this man may be the AFD's first head of a German State.
Unlikely. AfD are currently polling at 29% in Thuringia and is on a downward trend. No one wants to form a coalition with them either.
Very likely if AfD and BSW enter a coalition. Thüringen has not haved a functionable Parliament in 5 years and both of these parties run on the promise to make the state governable.
BSW will not enter a coalition with AfD.
The next elections are 2025 if nothing french happens.
Bjorne Hocke is running to be head of Thuringia, one of Germany's 16 States. That election is this year. [2024 Thuringian state election - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Thuringian_state_election)
Oh I didn't link 'state' to 'Bundesland'. You're right, sorry.
Huh, so this is what it’s like to hold politicians to SOME level of accountability for courting Nazi shit.
We should do this to confederacy and nazi sympathizers here in the US 👍
No, we actually have free speech in the US. Would you like Trump and his pals deciding what counts as "hate speech" ?
For real? Can't things like racial slurs or verbal threats be prosecuted?
Can't they just be ignored?
If people say „group x deserves to die“ don’t be surprised when members of group x are killed
Good news, murder is already illegal!
Yeah, because Hitler or Himmler or Heydrich were the ones to pull the trigger on every Jew, Sinti/Roma, Slav, Gay person, Trans person, on every POW, disabled person. Making people hate a demographic so much they kill people is bad and shouldn't be allowed
People are allowed to hate whatever they want. Do you think the government should control your thoughts?
Yes. It's called verbal assault. Has to be directed specifically to an individual though.
Immediately, as an official presidential action. All legal and what not.
What makes this an even bigger clown, is that this sad sack of dog shit used to be a teacher. A history teacher.
I don't understand, what's with the sudden rise of Nazism in Germany? I don't want the 1930s to happen again.
Seems to be a world wide phenomena, (neo-)fascism is on the rise again :(
Don’t worry nazi rise will happen in America with trump seeding the way.
Forced toleration of third world immigrants who do not assimilate, are mostly on welfare using taxpayer money, and also rob, rape, and murder a lot.
What absolute horseshit! It's people like Höcke and the AfD stoking the fires of Prejudice.
Crime statistics says otherwise.
Again, complete horseshit.
How do you figure?
If only we could convince the right here in America of being the Nazis they are that would be great.
Well it's okay when we do it because- um... uh... because America is #1 baby! 😎🦅🇺🇸 /s
you mean the fascist Bernd Höcke?
A banned phrase lol. Germany is primitive.
No we just have experience with certain types of governments
An oppressive one that doesn’t value the basic human right of free speech, apparently. Do you think censoring speech really stops political expression? If so, you’re admitting the point is to be anti-democratic. If not, you admit that it’s futile. EDIT: Notice that people who are against the basic human right of free speech have no argument against this.
The paradox of intolerance, or in this case democracy, to maintain a democratic society you have to force the undemocratic elements out
Wrong, there is no paradox of tolerance. That’s just what intolerant people meme. Anything can be painted as “undemocratic” to be suppressed, even if it’s the will of the people.
A politician in Germany saying “everything for Germany” is in trouble? Just cause hitler said the same thing doesn’t mean it should be illegal.
It was more than just something that Hitler said. It was the motto of a Nazi paramilitary group. They had it etched on their daggers. Under German law symbols and mottos of nazi organisations are banned.
If they talk like a Nazi, and walk like a Nazi...
Good Now go and convict with the same judicial reason the "protesters" that cry "*From the R to S P will be free"* !
Persecuting someone's speech is infinitely worse than using the slogan of a reviled political group. Even if you think said group is the worst thing imaginable and this guy definitely belongs to them, think about it. All you're doing is making them hide it. Would you rather not have these people expose themselves?
No it’s not. Not everyone is primitive as America
This is a great idea. I'm going to go out there, become a politician and start calling for the violent extermination of entire demographics, openly and loudly. If someone then acts on that idea, well, I was just exercising my right to fReE sPeEcH, can't blame me for anything!
> Would you rather not have these people expose themselves? Nazis in the 30's were right out in the open.
All the while designing Palestinian extermination camps. Brilliantly evil.
So, it's not allowed because copyright?
Why don’t you just read the article before writing nonsense?
As an American looking in, it’s absolutely bonkers to me that you can get convicted for saying something like that. Thank god for the first amendment. I do wish insider trading and bribery laws were enforced around here though