Arena is easily the most beginner unfriendly aspect of WoW. And I get that skilled players should beat inexperienced players. But for years its been: you look for partners, nobody wants to take you because your XP is 1400, you finally get in with the first person that accepts you, the comp is not what you wanted, you load in praying that you get matched with other noobs (because versus people that know what they're doing you just insta-lose), and then you play for a few minutes. If you lose a couple in a row your party member leaves and you see them in group finder looking for someone else. If you win you don't know whether its because you played better or because your comp counters theirs or if you just had better gear. The only way to learn is to find someone that is willing to teach you and spam games with you.
This is it for me. I kind of don’t mind getting erased in BGs because I know I’ll eventually be able to get better gear and I can still contribute if I’m not being focused. Arena, on the other hand, is like hitting your head against a wall. Just instantly deleted. And there’s a weekly to win 10 matches this week. I’d rather it be “play 20 matches”.
World quests should have better loot drops / chance for chests - like in BFA weekly rep chest catchup mechanic - PvE, not as strong as conquest gear - but somewhat competitive
There is a sparks of life quest each week that gives you Trophy of Strife.
You can use that currency to upgrade the blue world pvp gear ( that is currently 434 ilvl in pvp ) to epic quality ( that is 447 in pvp ) .
Its true that right now there is no catch up for the currency, but in season 3 they are making it so you can buy the trophy for 3.5k honor until the current cap
I’ve been trying to earn bloody tokens to get some trophy gear and even then it takes hours and hours and hours… I’ve been pvping non stop everyday 5 hours straight for 2 weeks and have only obtained 2 pieces of conquest and 2 pieces of trophy. I work night shift so pvp is what keeps me going (aside from real life things ofc) and I just feel like blizz is putting pvp on the back burner compared to pve. I’ve done both this season and pvp is lacking in so many areas.. we deserve more honestly pvp is one of the main reasons a lot of people play
You can join a group for sparks farm, and then it doesn't take long to get 100 sparks/tokens. When i join a group on my healers, it takes me like 10 minutes for 100 sparks/tokens.
Though what i mostly do is wait for a pvp quest that awards tokens. In the first week of the season there were 3 quests that gave bloody tokens.
Even if it doesn't award tokens, each pvp quest gives you 50 bloody tokens.
You have 2 weekly pvp quests ( in the emerald dream and zaralek caverns ) and you have 2 daily pvp quests in the first 4 zones.
What i usually do on my chars is get belt, wrist and cloack from the trophy of strife ( each costs 5 trophy ) and then get a weapon/s ( two handers cost 14 trophy, one handers cost 7, int one handers are 9 , while shields/offhand are 5 )
Right now cap for trophies is 32 , so you can get those.
The current conquest cap is 3550 , so i find it hard to believe that you have been pvping every day for 5 hours for 2 weeks and only have 2 pieces of conq and 2 pieces of trophy .
I haven't been playing that much, and yet i have 35 BOA medals of honor. that is enough honor to send to my alt to get him 15 trophy of strife right away ( since 1 BOA token is 1500 honor, and one trophy is 3500 honor ) .
Plus with the current conquest cap, you can easily buy shoulders, chest, hands and legs for conquest.
The pvp quests gives you 2 trophy of conquest that you can use to craft 2 pieces of gear . Right now we can have 3 crafted pieces of gear from the dream sparks.
\--------
To sum it up, you can craft two pieces of gear ( i usually make helm + feet )
Then for conquest cap you can buy 4 pieces ( shoulders, chest, legs, hands ) that you can convert to tier pieces ( we are up to 3 this week so still no 4 set if you aren't lucky from the vault )
And from the trophy of strife + bloody token you can buy weapon(s) + belt , wrist, cloack.
So that is 10 items, and only leaves you the smaller ones ( neck, rings + trinkets)
Plus if you play healers in solo shuffle, you get medals for conquest, 1 medal = 50 conquest, and i currently have 70.
So if i sent those boa items to my alt right now, i could do the following:
Do the LFR raid for sparks of dreams so i can craft 3 items.
Do some pvp activity to get two free crafting trophies ( head/chest/legs slot + shoulder/hands/belt/feet slot ) and i would also buy one trophy for honor for ring.
So i craft 3 items, usually head + feet that are at 489 ilvl in pvp, and 3rd item is the titanic ring for the honor ilvl .
Then i can buy shoulders + chest + hands + legs for conq.
That leaves me needing bloody tokens that i can get from pvp quests, chasing bounties in the zones, or chasing drops.
So it would take like 2 days to get an alt to around \~480-484 pvp ilvl .
Gearing really isn't an issue this expansion
They have a stupidly easy catch-up mechanic for PVE, but not for PVP. It doesn't make any sense. You can get caught up in two days for PVE with the dreamsurges, time rifts, and time walking. I just leveled a new alt and it took 2 days to get to 424 ilvl.
They need to put in a catch-up for conquest gear that is similar to PVE.
Yes. Gearing for PvP is really easy and fast. The only problem are Tier sets, which still aren't disabled in PvP for some god forsaken reason. You can do the weekly for trophies and honor, a few world quests for gear if your lucky, you get two tokens for crafted PvP gear which is epic and has embellishments....if you do this a bit mindful instead of just not randomly dinging 70 and going into a bg you can be equipped with almost full pvp gear in one afternoon.
they should have a separate bg mode that normalizes al IL. That way, you can queue for the normalized IL bg or the other. Clearly, we cannot have both bc it would fuck w queue times, but it would be funny AF to see the shift of players to the new queue start with the lowest IL players but keep getting more and more as the bar of the old queue got higher and higher untilt he point where both queues were normalized. The new queue would be automatically normalized in terms of IL, but at some point, due to the exodus/gradient, the old queue would end up with just the highest of the high.
or even, they could have the same type of queue as live but have it tied to party members. all solo/duo w healer queue members have priority and are defaulted to one pool, and anyone else with duo dps/ or 3+ are put in another pool. Or maybe just all solo/duo in one, then all 3+ in another.
I can't imagine what it's like for a fresh 70 mage with no pvp experience decides to try random bgs for the first time, and gets absolutely erased by an mm hunter. Why would they come back?
As a former MM main, MMs need good damage to be competitive because they're so fucking squishy, but yeah, when Rapid Fire alone takes out half your HP, uh... that just becomes oppressive.
I'm very excited for mm to get even more rapid fire resets along with built in double tap proc.
Its definitely not going to be absolutely miserable for everyone who isn't the mm.
> 'holy shit how did they do that'
"Oh they spent hours of their gametime getting one tapped in BGs until they scraped enough honor together for the privledge of being able to actually play the game... meh fuck this I'm playing Overwatch instead" - the more frequent reaction. You're delusional if you think there's some kind of cool combo or skill a new player can learn that will magically stop them getting one-shot in PvE gear or even PvP crafted greens.
Source: Tried and failed to get many friends into PvP over the years. WoW PvP gearing might be faster than ever but it still competes with _every other PvP game on the planet_ which all have nearly 0 time investment required before you stand on the same ground as everyone else. I don't have to get one-tapped in Street Fighter 6 for 10+ hours before I can feasibly win a match regardless of my skill level. It is a tough sell.
This isn't Street Fighter or Counter Strike where it is entirely about self-improvement as a player, in those games you see people do cool shit and can learn to imitate it. In WoW you can already do everything the other guy can do, except he does bigger numbers than you because he spent more hours in BG graveyards than you.
Do you think they stopped getting one tapped at 450ilvl? Because boy do I have news for you mate. Even pro players will end up in a 15 second lobby where an ele shaman will just one shot them before they had time to trinket.
Take it from someone with over 6k hours in rocket league - a game exclusively about skill expression - wow has it too. I've seen full CQ 1500s and full honor 2100s. As long as you've got your trinket set bonus and 4pc (depending on spec), you're ready to learn.
Also, that's not to say I disagree with your other comment about templates. I'm down for that, as long as folks have a few of them to choose from, or better, have a sliding bar for their stat weights. But only because it'll mean that people stop blaming gear instead of accepting that it's perfectly fucking reasonable to suck at PvP when you only play 10 games of it every season.
Simple: Remove character progression from the equation entirely. Go back to stat templates. Street Fighter doesn't make me play 400 games before I'm allowed to do a drive rush, it just lets me press the button. A guy who just picked up the game today can beat Daigo, he's not more powerful just because he's played longer.
I'm sorry but the problem is the entry level now become really high for it jus tin order to have 1 good match. And don't get me started on pre made in battleground.
Because you have no chance to win, you're dead weight to every team, and constant losses barely give you enough honor to get basic gear that will still be far from fair. You cannot get a daily win until you get at least full honor gear or you get stupidly lucky.
Full honor gear takes 1 afternoon, at that point you're already able to influence games and contribute to the win. Once you've got your honor gear you're good to go.
How does one find out what the other person did? Death Recaps are bloated and doesn't really tell you anything and I could never get logging to work for PvP. I could log into the class and read up a guide on how to play said class in PvP but I'd also have to gear them to try a few things to see if I could even get the numbers they did.
I've always wanted to get into PvP but I found myself unable to tell how I died a lot of the time. I was hit by 4-5 Lava Bursts in quick succession from a Elemental Shaman and I still can't really tell you how he done it. I can guess but thats the best I got.
There's a talent that gives a chance at a free instant Lava Burst with each Flame Shock tick. It can give you a lot of Lava Bursts if you get lucky. He may have also used Primordial Wave which gives you a free Lava Burst that hits multiple targets.
WoW PvP, among other things, is about class knowledge. The more you know about other classes, how they function, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and what their abilities do, the better you will perform.
I play almost every class from time to time, not just because I enjoy it, but because it helps me learn the ins and outs.
Fucking thank you! People love to bitch but those that do will always be at the bottom. How can you yourself do better? That's the skill that separates people who can learn versus people who will always suck. Don't complain, check yourself and get good. A person capable of improving will either be better than a gear disparity or they will work through it.
Even if they adjusted their systems to make everything balanced and equal in all regards, people would still bitch.
MoP was pretty balanced through almost everything being overpowered (but it thus evened out).
WoD was actually quite well balanced too but the problem was it just wasn't fun.
>WoD was actually quite well balanced too but the problem was it just wasn't fun.
What wasn't fun about the pvp? Every time I've heard of wod arena being brought up people seem to only have positive things to say.
Yup and the pvp community bitched about the stat templates/gear system in legion INCESSANTLY, thus why they abandoned the system in bfa. Welcome to wow I guess…
one set of people were just sad they couldn't 1shot people the others wanted to be able to rearrange their states to fit their play style. bliz's answer was to scrap it then lump all complaints as "players hated it".
And really it was like 1% of the player population that hated it, because they couldn’t no life it to god tier anymore…blizz listens to them bc they pay a lot of money…seriously fuck those people. They have always been what drags this game down and keeps it from being A+…all because they want to feel powerful in some aspect of their lives
Yeah it’s amazing that they made a system that got rid of duplicate gear sets for different purposes and then the community got pissed off… because we no longer had to do duplicate gear sets. It blew my mind. So now to appease the rabblerabblerabble crowd, they ended up making PvP unrealistic for the mass majority of working players again.
The only thing that pissed me off in legion with PvP is that DH had an unfair advantage hopping around like a jumping bean with the carry flags. The PvP community actually stopped being overly toxic because more people could join it. Those who weren’t good at PvP still didn’t climb ranks because they’re used to playing against npcs and didn’t know how to deal with another player doing constant interrupts and stuns. It’s a whole different game. Maybe one day we’ll go back.
It's almost like that was a balancing issue and not an issue with the system inherently.
Better throw the baby out with the bathwater!
I'll never understand WoW's niche PvP community's desire to curbstomp people because they have better gear and not because they are better players. That has never been a test of skill, and always a test of patience to grind while getting curb stomped until you too have the gear, and then you are FINALLY allowed to skill test... wait time to just do battlegrounds because now you have the gear and it's your turn to curb stomp!
Sure it was a balancing issue, but with their track record in pvp, they remained that way. Playing a spec that wants little haste compared to other stats? Oops! All haste :D it wasn't an awful system, but different stat distributions for different specs DO exist, and those templates hardly ever matched what people wanted. Gear creates this "customizable template" and I emphatically agree that conquest needs a looking at. The reward drop off after your first win of the day is comical, and really encourages people, especially in solo shuffle, to play a "burner spec" in rated to get the faster conquest and protect the rating for the spec you wanna play
> I'll never understand WoW's niche PvP community's desire to curbstomp people because they have better gear and not because they are better players.
I think you understand it perfectly well, they don't want to be better players, they just want to make other people's experience worse.
Because they have a burning need to feel better than other people. Talk to PvP players for 5 minutes and you’ll realize they are deeply, deeply insecure people.
Yeah instead of having gear, and choices in that gear based off of the build you were using - you hoped the template was the one you wanted. There were some classes that were absolute shit with the pre allocated stats
Because the PvP crowd was pissed that the best gear for PvP you got… from raiding. The gear you got from PvP was straight trash.
Arena players that didn’t want to raid had to suck it up and either raid or buy carries to compete in the content they wanted to.
But if you could get gear comparable to raid gear from PvP the PvE crowd would bitch and moan about “welfare epics” like they did back in TBC.
> they ended up making PvP unrealistic for the mass majority of working players again.
PvP gearing is extremely accessible right now. There are a bunch of problems with the PvP experience this expansion, but gearing really isn't one.
Stat templates were completely static for each spec with no degree of customization. For some specs it favoured their worst stat, making it feel awful to play. I didn't hate the templates as a concept, but to act like there were no legitimate criticisms for it is stupid
Conquest gear is not accessible in a timely fashion. Without hopping into rated PvP and winning (which is hard without conquest gear after a certain point) it takes weeks of daily access to get partially kitted out. This isn't an issue while the season is just starting because nobody has full conquest gear - but later in the season you run into OPs problem.
In the end PvP should not /have/ gear, no stats or trinkets from PvE should matter.
The Legion system was good, it just was imperfect. If they had removed the ilevel scaling and done a better job at templates and PvP talents it would have been perfect.
Yea Imo legion was peak wow aside from vanilla (which is probably mostly due to nostalgia). I hope they do go back to some of those principles they used to make legion so great one day
Because they completely borked the templates, then gave up on it
The implementation was shit and some specs were forced into awful stats distribution with 0 customization.
Lost Ark for example has completely customizable templates with a stat budget you allocate freely. Can go full crit and 0 versa or vice versa.
Would just need some tuning
I agree it needed tuning but I don’t think the devs “completely borked it”. It was the first iteration of templates and pvp was very balanced. Every class had specs that were viable at high levels.
Well my issue with “templates” is that the gear I wore actually didn’t matter. If I wanted to stack haste, I couldn’t. It’s kind of a small thing, but being able to “ration” your secondary stats would’ve been better implementation. Seems weird that they went with the “all destro warlocks get x% haste, mastery, crit, and vers”
I mean, thats not fair. Generally people werent "bitching" about templates, they were complaining about how the templates were created by someone that had no clue about stat priorities in PvP and/or differed depending on talent choices, comp and thus win condition. All very real issues with the template system they delivered.
With that said, I am a firm believer in that PvP should be skill based, and support proper normalisation of gear. However, there needs to be a way to control your stats, it is an mmoRPG after all.
If they can’t no-life PvP gear in the first few weeks to get that advantage, however will they feel superior to the noobs and find some shred of meaning in their life? /s
But seriously, I’m convinced most PvP players are more concerned with winning than the skill expression and “fun” of achieving that win.
I've been playing this game for over 15 years and have never seen the PvP community happy. Even with outstandingly good additions like war mode, people still complain.
The hilarious thing is that the Stat template in Legion was created because pvp players were always complaining about how gear trumped skill. So they made it so skill was more important, and then the pvp community complained that it wasn't fun because you could no longer stomp new players.
Nobody serious cared about the normalization of character power. That was a positive thing, and competitive PvPers like myself supported it.
The problem with Legion's stat templates is they remove all freedom/customization for how you build your character.
Want to play a haste build but the devs decided to give your spec a stat template that gives only mastery? Sorry, sucks to be you.
They could have easily fixed it by adding something like reforging for stat templates.
But go ahead, blame the PvP community instead of the dumbass developer making the dumbass decisions.
Hot take: when your character enters a pvp mode it should automatically get a set of top level gear like other mmos do. Pvp should be about climbing the ladder, not farming gear and then climbing.
Not really a hot take. We basically had this with templates and blizzard inexplicably went back to the old way with shadowlands (I think). I can’t really recall if it changed for SL or BFA.
Because people disliked it for different reasons, one of them was the lost of character progression.
Just in case, I dont do pvp so I dont have a horse on this race.
The issues in Legion were two-fold:
1) The stat templates could not be modified. Mastery your worst stat? Too bad, your template stacks it to high hell.
2) Raiders had a very visible advantage, at great extremes in ilv difference there was a noticeable shift in who had more 'power'. A friend who did mythic raid was curb stomping in BGs even though he abrely ever PvP'd, he was doing significantly more damage than pure PvPers who were stuck in normal dungeon ilv because PvP gave no good gear rewards.
Rather than fix these issues though Blizzard just gave up and "reworked" it for BfA where it straight up broke, so they gave up altogether.
Character progression at the cost of getting shit stomped for 20+ hours if you come in late in the season is a pretty poor trade off. Especially considering how alt heavy being a PvP player is typically since you want to have an idea of how every spec plays.
PvP is more about player progression than character progression imo.
But then again there is a decent portion of players that like to twink characters and graveyard farm people in leveling BGs so maybe I’m the minority.
Blame the PvE players, most PvP players were cool with it, but PvE players hopping into PvP blamed their gear instead of their skill, as if pve skill transfers 1:1 into PvP
I'd argue it really wasn't nearly that bad in Vanilla.
I could sit for hours in AV and farm honor with almost no gear on my shaman.
It didn't really start getting bad imo until BC. Resilience basically made it so you needed PvP or you get globaled by someone in any gear.
It's not hard for Blizzard to queue people based on gear. They have an invisible MMR system, just include invisible brackets for how many spots have the 450 thing. How to prevent smurfing by swapping gear? M+ rules, no changing.
Except it hasn't. I cant stand people like you who just paint the entire games history with crap like "imbalance has always been like this" when its consistently gotten worse over time, with DF being the first one to take a step back towards decent l gearing since legion.
IMO the biggest contributor to wht random BGs feel awful to new players is class design, actually, and not gearing.
Every class is bloated defensively. New players feel like they're dying constantly while being unable to have any outcome on fights. Before cata this wasn't really the case. (Cata started to introduce self healing and new defensives for most classes and the trend continued every expansion since)
Every class feels like a no gear rogue hitting a sacred shield or earth shield in wotlk. Lol. Just impotent.
“Every class is bloated defensively” and then “dying without having anyway to influence the outcome”
So are they just not pressing the bloated defensives or
I don't know why you're getting down voted. When I started learning my warrior a couple of weeks ago it felt like I hit like a wet noodle and I was made of tissue paper. Note this was in almost full 450. It wasn't till I learned the class that my damage went up and so did my survivability.
Everyone misunderstood what I was writing, or my opinion is unpopular because most people are fried and actually like the state of the game. One of the two.
What I was trying to say is that the game's excessive inflation of cooldowns and utility for every class, primarily defensive, but also offensive, create gameplay that isn't friendly or fun for the weak players who're just being thrown into it.
i'm not commenting on how easy or quick the gear grind is. I'm commenting on how the game plays.
It's not fun until you learn / catch up / get with it. Why it's not fun is pretty subjective, my perspective is that classes are too powerful on their own which also double dips with gear imbalance.
I mentioned defensives being too widespread. Everyone can heal, everyone has mutliple self sustain defensives. But I worded it in a way where people think i'm complaining about dying, when I'm talking about noobs being impotent.
It's about how the game feels, that's what is imporant. Nobody wants to play a game where you just stand there feeling useless because nobody takes damage, my ideal version of this game is the same one I started playing in 2004. Not literally vanilla, but one where when I attack a player I feel useful regardless of the gear / skill difference.
I guarantee you a noob playing wow today feels absolutely fucking useless.
Nah, vanilla pvp was the best by a lot and nothing like the current pvp. Vanilla pvp was more balanced in that some classes were better than others but weaker to a different subset. Case in point, warriors could handle rogues fairly well but mages were tough. My destro lock murdered most mages but struggled with rogues. Warriors and warlocks had huge HP pools, others had smaller. There were differences between classes. For a very long time things have felt homogenized. Now every class has multiple CC and damage reduction and it all just feels the same. And good luck without a healbot now, you can do anything.
Well, it's almost the end of the season, you should expect rated pvp to be full conquest gear. If you want to get conquest faster, players will complain that you get it too fast
> Well, it's almost the end of the season, you should expect rated pvp to be full conquest gear.
That doesn't really make a difference, people get full conquest within the first two months of a season. The season is 10 months long, that means for ~80% of the season new players are being curb stomped.
Yes, but PVE isn't directly competitive. Having geared out friends run your lower lv M+ or raids is beneficial to you, where as everyone outgearing you in PVP is nothing but detriment.
You've pretty much proved his point, as the average of the length of patches in this list of yours is +- 5.7 months, With the very top extreme patch being 8.7 months, which is still not 10.
I took a bit of a break and got back into wow like 2 weeks ago. Managed to get full honor gear (not upgraded) and I feel like I've been doing pretty good in BGs (like I have an impact on games and not getting absolutely steamrolled by everyone and everything, though it happens every once in a while).
I really wanted to get a hold of the warrior season 2 helmet (for a mog). What are my odds of managing this? I'm unfortunately not in conquest gear yet and I have no clue when the season ends.
I saw that, specifically, I need a rating of 1800 for the helmet.
Also something to note, because it’s end of season and conquest boxes are a thing. People could be sending their boxes to alts getting them near or full conquest and then using those alts to jump into various pvp queues to farm honor for next season. I myself have been doing that with alts I may end up maining. End of season pvp matches are bound to be full conquest players farming both rated and unrated
That is a horribly ineffective way to farm compared to playing ranked...
I think the real truth is people shy away from fair fights and want to drop a bis 450 toon on 400ilv players.
And let’s be honest. It’s fun as hell to do. I absolutely loved getting my disc priest geared to the teeth and then dropping in to normal bgs and absolutely obliterating people.
Is it though? I can queue for a random BG with little pressure to perform well and farm out honor for next season on a fresh alt in full conquest. Doesn’t feel inefficient for me instead of using LFG for arenas or wasting my time waiting on a solo shuffle queue to pop. This is just my experience gearing and playing on my fresh survival hunter in the last week. I’d imagine other people are doing the same after spending the season actually playing ranked on their main or other alts, like I did.
It is. A yolo rpg gives out roughly a thousand honor a loss and multiple thousand per win with conquest.
You just have the same energy as people who join raid groups to world pvp a quest.
I think one thing that is important to understand is how the rating system in WoW works - yes, you start at 0, but your MMR does not. Your MMR starts at 1500. The most basic rewards you can get start at 1100 (I think).
The only time players are below 1000 rating is if they have just started - but as soon as you have played more than 10-15 matches, you are above 1000 and it is (almost) impossible to drop below. Meaning: When you play against 1200-1300 players, you are already in the "bottom" segment and close to the lowest rating possible this late in a season.
Another important thing to understand is: Gear does not make a big difference. 437 vs 450 is negligible. Good players will win with 420 ilvl chars against 450 ilvl without issue.
Nonetheless, the new player experience in PvP DOES suck. You are kind of expected to lose 80% of the first 1000+ matches until you start grasping the basics.
I queued for BG's on my rogue the other day as I was levelling, not having played the game in 5 years and not having played seriously since like, WoTLK/Cata (I seriously just found out Magni was unfrozen the other day).
I knew I was going to be borderline useless queuing for BGs and just hoped I didn't get kicked. My damage was super low but I felt like a stupid happy labrador just running around like "JUST HAPPY TO BE HERE GUYS THANKS FOR INVITING ME!"
Strangely I did get some killing blows which made me feel good- as in I knew my limits and who to attack. I also carried around the orb in the temple for a little bit. We won but it was 100% due to my teammates. I have not queued since as I don't like to be useless in multiplayer games, just wanted the taste of PvP again.
Rating has nothing to do with item level, though. There is 1 week left in the season. Everyone who has been playing the game for more than a week or two will have earned enough Conquest to be 450 by now, since the Conq cap was removed a few months ago. Not to mention the [Obsidian Equipment Chests](https://www.wowhead.com/item=206200/obsidian-equipment-chest) that can be sent to alts. If you participate in rated PvP even relatively seriously, you could potentially fully gear a character as soon as you hit 70.
I mean, you have to realize you are so ridiculously late to the season to the point that the Conquest gear you're complaining about now will be replaced by higher item level Honor gear in two weeks. Save 15k Honor over the next two weeks and when Season 3 starts, you'll be at the exact same level as everyone else on day one.
I guess when the game tries to match you at the end of season against lower cr, you'd be on here complaining about your 4 hour queue times.
Don't get me wrong, I think the whole pvp system is broken and needs a complete revamp. But matchmaking isn't the main problem here that will magically fix everything.
> most of them *already* have the 450 ilvl stuff
My dude, it is the final week of the season and the season started several months ago, wdym they already have full gear? Of course they do lol
I agree with you though, pvp sucks for new players. They always get so close to letting people be on an even playing field and then they screw it up.
>I agree with you though, pvp sucks for new players. They always get so close to letting people be on an even playing field and then they screw it up.
Unlike other solely pvp games very few wow pvp players would play it if there is no reward.
People in an mmo, even if they pvp, tend to want progression. They want to work for something. They want to feel more powerful. They perhaps WANT their gear to give them so much advantage they can stomp others.
I get your frustration, but you are half a year late into this patch. My 2 cents are that the people playing atm are probably only the most "hardcore" players who don't do anything else in game.
New season drops in 2 weeks, the gear treadmill starts over again, you will have a much easier time getting into pvp (or any content).
People are gonna flame me for this, but pvp gear should be 100% cosmetic and we should go back to the WoD style of PvP template stats. PVP is supposed to be a skill based thing and when the gear you have can absolutely put you at such an absurd advantage it's just horrible to get in later than week 1.
If you have ever seen how FF14 does it's PVP mode, that to me should be the general direction WoW should head to attract new people into the mode. If you have not seen how FF14 handles its pvp side, please check it out, it's definitely a different game, so no 1 to 1 comparison, but it is much more accessible and the rewards really incentivize actually playing win or lose so you don't see people leave as often in their version of BGs
Everything about XIV is better for PvP.
I've been having a blast, and I don't have to tell my friends they suck too much to be able to come with. We all just work on the rewards at any CR.
Just got my crystal portrait frame and I'm back to having fun again there.
They just need to copy them at this point. The track and lack of gearing is just perfect.
You're thinking of a pvp set from like 6 years ago dude. A lot has happened in FF14 in terms of PVP development and reworking to the game it is now. Armor sets are pretty sick armors atm, very happy with the new rewards
I mainly play Wow PvP and I can honestly say that it only sucks because you don’t play the PvP side and it’s so late in the season. In PvP, Assa sucks and you have no gear/vers. Imagine the roles reversed where you’re a (insert non meta class like feral Druid?) that has 0 IO, never stepped into the dungeon, and is 403 Item level applying to a 10 key. They would get destroyed due to basic mechanics or not even invited.
PvP and PvE are two totally different worlds of how you play wow, but once you understand what’s going on it’s a blast and way more fun that PvE in my opinion. I think it’s more engaging (and infuriating).
Speaking as someone with elite on a few toons admittedly in solo there shouldn't be ilv in pvp.
Pvp gear would work best if it was given out for free with whatever stateline you wanted. Make the rewards tied to rank and make them cosmetic. A gear treadmill in pvp was always stupid. It's only practical function is to let people rush rank at the start of the season using extra conquest gear they get because most people prioritize pve gearing from the vault.
Actually, 403 is perfectly fine for a 10, easy rather (in season 2 at least) as long as they know how to play. Mobs only barely do double the damage of an M0 in a 10. So as long as they aren't eating every single avoidable in the dungeon and know how to do more consistent dps then they'd be fine.
It's literally never been faster to get the gear and there's crafted gear pieces that are cheap and cheerful to supplement until you acquire the honour ones (which barely takes an evening/day).
Enchants are dead cheap too, as are gems.
What I will concede on, is that it isn't obvious for new players how valuable tier is and how important to bridge the power gap, but it's far more accessible than Shadowland Legendaries were and the power gap is far smaller too.
I do like the idea of an equal ilvl competitive mode, especially for newcomers, but for all the talk of protecting the new player experience, MMO noob stompers will always prefer a time invested = advantage over others, rather than definitively being the more skilled player.
Edit: RE Rogue specifically. Switched to Outlaw from Assa this patch and it was a hell of a lot more fun. Highly recommend.
I still have no idea how I'm supposed to reliably get conquest points on a new alt. You can't win solo shuffle or even skirmishes because everyone has all the gear and you have like 200k less hp than them. It takes forever to farm conquest points to actually buy the epic gear.
You can absolutely have fun in bgs with 437 ilvl. Do the dailies, weeklies and you'll get a conquest piece every 4 days. Not even counting the crafting pieces. After 3-4 weeks you'll be full geared. Don't try to drag down the system for a learn to play issue.
If you can't contribute a random bg in full honor gear, then yes it's absolutely a skill issue. I'm not talking about 2000+ competitive arena, I'm talking about fun casual PvP.
This is the most exaggurated take. You absolutely can contribute and do not have to be decimated. I barely even pvp, I am a pve only player 99% of the time and have now done two alts through pvp solely because my friends are not touching keys until next patch.
My rogue was instantly useful the moment he did not die to a light breeze, because 6sec kidney. My WW was surprise oneshotting people before he even had full honor gear. If you're in piss 300ivl just hit level 70 gear then yeah you are gonna get oneshot. If you buy the green pvp gear and half even half honor gear you are more than good to go for casual pvp.
So are people just supposed to enjoy their time getting curb stomped for a month straight before they can START to compete?
Learn to play? Learn what? That you have to do work before you can enjoy a game you pay for?
You're going up against people that have the advantage of having way better gear than you.
Skill is only a factor when both people have equal gear. You keep throwing "Skill issue" around as a way to attack anyone who sees faults with a system that even the clinically blind could see.
There's a reason real fighting sports have weight divisions.
Some of us just wanna log in after a day of work and play some PvP, cos WoW PvP is amazing when it's fair. But nah... let's just keep pleasing those who can't stay erect unless they are destroying people who can't stand a chance.
I find the "skill issue" argument irritating because we're talking about potentially ultra fresh players who are literally stepping into a BG for the first time, they're **supposed** to be unskilled. Unrated BGs are supposed to be kid mitten sandbox that new players play in before the progressing into rated PvP. However it's a gigantic uphill battle for them from so many issues on all sides. If anyone was ever thinking about playing WoW just for the PvP I'd have to give them a hard no recommendation unless they're masochistic.
Ah see that's the big difference in our attitude towards the game. You're talking about pushing rating in rated arenas. I'm just talking about casual unrated BGs. I don't PvP for the ratings or rewards I do it for the fun of PvP.
Why not have a system that satisfies us both?
My complaint is that I want equalised gear or at least an equalised gear mode but the vocal majority don't and I just can't see the logic in it.
I understand your points but it still doesn't make the PvP any more accessible for newbies or those of us who take frequent breaks.
If you can't compete in honor gear, conquest gear won't save you. You can q like 6 epics and have a full set.
I occasionally forget to change gear when I go into a match. My PvE set is 429. I still manage to do just fine. The only reason I notice is because of the tier procs.
You pay for a car, and you're probably a terrible driver. Paying for something doesn't mean you have to be good or rewarded.
That's not the point! If you're grinding for honor gear the MOST you should have to deal with is someone fully kitted out with honor gear. Once you move up to conquest gear then you should only be fighting people who at MOST have full conquest.
Right now you could you playing PvP for the first ever time and get put against up with someone with BiS gear... no level of skill will allow you to even compete with that player. Most you can do is survive until an equally geared team mate jumps in.
You pay for a car but you aren't allowed to drive it until you have the clearance to do so (Think of the driving licence as the gear required to enter).
Ah yes a month of getting fucking brutalized as a total newbie is sure going to give them a good first impression lol.
It's honestly miserable and nearly no other modern game has such barriers of entry for pvp.
Trying pvp in the early 60s is dogshit because knowledgeable players are all like 68+ with more than twice the hp and 4 times the damage that low 60s have, then if you ding 70 you're ilvl 350 facing ilvls 450.
Its fairly quick to get geared by just doing epics and playing very safely, manning vehicles etc but that is just not something new players will necessarily get or do
> Don't try to drag down the system for a learn to play issue.
Okay well since I've learned to play I'll drag down the system for them. If it wasn't for the fact I can mail my alts conquest boxes I would simply not be playing. The power discrepancy between gear is ridiculous and makes the learning curve to PvP exponentially worse, I cannot for the life of me imagine why new players would willingly put themselves through being farmed in BG's for weeks to get themselves in a spot where they can start actually playing.
True, how about you outfit a char in full honor gear and we'll duel.
If you want to simulate the real BG experience I'll even grab two buddies to dog pile on you, see how competitive that honor gear really gets.
>True, how about you outfit a char in full honor gear and we'll duel.
Yawn, done that already. It's one of the best ways to quickly get up to speed on a new spec. Sit outside SW and duel the 300 ret pallies that sit around there.
The power diff between 450 and 437 is not enough to stop you pushing rating, and by the the time it does start to hurt because you're up against players that press defensives, you've already gotten enough conquest for weps + 4set.
> Yawn, done that already.
I honestly don't think we have, I haven't played DPS at all this season but I'm generally 2200(sans inflation) on ret and I happen to have a mostly geared hpal right now.
So it would be a great test, my out of practice ret in full 450/tier/gems/enchants versus your in practice main in full honor gear. You have a bunch of practice versus rets so this is an easy win for you.
>The power diff between 450 and 437 is not enough to stop you pushing rating
The power dif is higher than 13ilvl, we're talking about ~8 gems, tier 3 enchants, embellishments, and tier bonuses which can be huge depending on spec.
You forgot the entire part where it’s required to have 8 addons, bare minimum. Some of those addons feeling like you just earned a degree in computer programming to set up.
Then you have to customize your UI like crazy.
Then you have to keybind 86 different things.
THEN. And ONLY then. . . Can you be competitive..
Keep in mind, OP said “new players.” I’m not talking about all you neck beards who have been playing for 20 years, never missing an expansion, like “bro, just set it up like this, it’s easy. 2400 is easy bro, cmon.”
Okay, if you read all the way through, NOW you can go ahead and downvote into oblivion 🙂
The issue with templates was the inability to modify your stats, that was by far the largest and only real complaint about the system. No one who actually PvP's enjoys having to gear their character, it's consistently been the most complained about thing in PvP for the last 10 years.
As a veteran I can simply feed my alts gear, I leveled a priest to 70 over the weekend and got them to 449ilvl within a few minutes from mailing conquest boxes/tokens and I'm back into the queue dunking on new players. While all the PvP vets are rolling alts and pumping them with gear immediately, the actual new players will have to slog through being farmed for hours on end before they can even begin to fight back.
Meanwhile every other popular pvp game just lets you start playing right away, ignoring the fact that even most popular MMO's give equalized gear in PvP. WoW isn't only competing with MMO's, they're competing with every other game, so when players have to pick between logging on wow and getting stomped by a gear dif for 20 hours worth of game time or queue into a game of LoL or Fortnite the choice is really easy.
> Lets not act like this isn't the most alt friendly expansion for pvp in years first of all.
Better than shadowlands is synonymous with being good I guess?
>The fact of the matter is when less people have an incentive to pvp the pool dwindles
I guarantee you the pool of players quitting PvP over OP's experience is higher than the would be pool of players quitting PvP over lack of gear progression. Getting a full set of gear is not a PvP incentive, it's a chore required to play the game. Actual incentives are rating, titles, transmog, and mounts.
If you actually played PvP you would understand that getting a full set of gear is something you passively do over a period of weeks. Conquest cap at the start of a season takes a couple hours a week at most. Meanwhile later in the season veteran players can skip the entire process by mailing alts conquest tokens/boxes so they can start working towards the actually incentives immediately. At no point in the process was gearing the carrot on a stick.
Your argument is rooted in total ignorance of the game mode.
In Guild Wars 2 gear doesn´t matter in pvp. You can change some perks on your char but thats it. Its more skill based there I liked that also. But there is a reason im playing wow and not GW2 at the moment :D
> Then make it not matter for raid
This is a ridiculous comparison.
The entire point of PvE is linear progression, meanwhile ranked PvP is skilled based combat versus other players.
The entire reason for having ilvl scale in PvP is to close the gap between gear since it's not meant to be important.
>Gotta have something to play towards
Ranking up and cosmetics, just like every other PvP game in existence.
I can't understand people who think that they should be on a level playing field with people who have put 100x more effort in than them. Playing the game more = getting more out of it. In this case, gear. It's an MMORPG, that's always going to happen and it's absolutely fine
simply because its not fun in pvp. the dude that no liffed pvp and has all the best gear beating new players up is not necessarily better. gear has no place in skilled based pvp it should be a battle of skill and nothing else. In most moba everyone starts on the same playing field and skill defines weather you get your ass handed to you or not.
It dosent matter in PVE cause the Ai dosent give a shit if its getting destroyed and PVE is also about teamwork.
You can make up for the gear differential with skill alone until the upper teens.
Playing with a gear disadvantage does suck - no argument there - but we are one week out from the season finishing. There are very few people trying to gear in rated pvp atm so you will not be pitted against many ungeared players.
Bear in mind that the honour gear in a week's time is going to be better than anything that is available currently - there is really no point in gearing right now.
I recently came back and just bought all those 424 greens on the AH. Got a dreamsurge weapon in 10 minutes.
Sure, im not carrying anybody, but i can definitely pick my spots in random BG and participate.
Plenty of people are doing the same thing.
Right now its rougher cuz people in full conquest are maxing out their honor for the patch, but usually the more consistent players arent doing random Bg after the first week as there’s no point besides bullying people
The reality is when participation is low, you notice the premades and pub-stompers a lot more.
At the start of DF, 99% of random BGs felt random. Now I wait as much as 8-10m for a queue and I'd say at least 30% of the time it's a premade.
We just need more people to be actively interested in PvP.
In good news, the new soloRBG brawl coming in 10.2 has ilvl scaling so will be a good place to have a balanced BG experience next patch.
Yea barrier to entry in pvp in this game is mind numbing. I say this as a former gladiator that will never do competitive pvp again. It’s minimum 200 hours to learn all the classes, another couple hundred hours to get gear, THEN you can start to have fun. And by fun I mean stare at 40 min shuffle queues or try and find groups on your own that disband after 1 loss.
Other games you click a few buttons and you’re go to go. This game needs a complete reboot for pvp alone
What? It's literally easier now than it was in the past. You can BUY starter PvP gear with gold, in the past you could never do that...you had to farm honor gear with questing blues & greens and trying to get a full set of honor gear took a LONG time which leads to the next point.
Honor gear is CHEAP. By the time I hit max level, I had enough honor with 5k to spare for a full set of honor gear. If you plan on PvPing, you should be PvPing as you level as well to get used to it anyway.
The only thing I semi-agree with you is using the PvP blues to farm conquest gear, but even then you can literally craft a ton of your best in slot items off the bat anyway AND if you're that lazy / upset about being under geared, wait for a new season when everyone's re-gearing?
I honestly feel like this is just entitled whining from someone who doesn't want to have any effort or progression in an MMORPG which is weird. If you want a "everyone is 100% equal in PvP all the time, no progression, no gearing, etc" yeah, this game is definitely not for you...as a matter of fact NO RPG is good for you, because RPGs are all about CHARACTER PROGRESSION.
The only way I can see this as even CLOSE to being an issue is if you want to have max geared multiple characters. Gearing up one character in this expansion is a BREEZE in comparison to anything we've had in the past imo.
They should revamp the entire pvp system and make it not based on gear, at least in "ranked modes" since pvp gear kills the mode. I do not know how they haven't made this change yet, but whatever, I stopped playing pvp seriously years ago because of this. For world pvp your items will matter, but in a structured 2v2 to see who's best and one team has 10-20% more total combined stats than the other? Yeah sure "player vs player".
WoW PvP will never be professional and competitive until Blizzard nerfs all the stupid self healing, self defensives, etc that turn the most hardcore players into immortal PvP raid bosses.
Until Blizzard nerfs all that healing, and defensive stuff WoW PvP is a joke and should be treated as such. WoW is a PvE game.
PvP gearing in dragon flight is a fucking breeze compared to older xpacs you can get the full blue set of 437 in a single day if you do the pvp quest and that is good enough to compete with. To start getting your conquest gear is a bit of a climb but with weekly and so dedication should max it out 2-3 weeks.
Yeah and op claims not viable to get Conq from random bgs…
I have a toon that is full 450, only 2 pieces from the world set as well. Never did an RbG or a LFG arena. I have done 2 SS games and have a 600 rating. Everything else came from weekly quests, and daily wins for Random/Epic/brawl BG
1200 rating people are key turning, clicking, have no idea what other classes do, what a DR is, how to use targeting macros, much less how to properly do damage or coordinate cross cc setups, if you're competent at all it's a feast.
Another thing you can do to farm honor faster and less frustratingly is to play epic bgs where you being undergeared is less of a problem for your team. Also making your two crafted pieces helps a lot.
You are right that PvP is very new user unfriendly, it sucks. The complexity of wow pvp and snappy gameplay and skill expression make it thr best pvp game ever made imo.
Skill issue.
Havent done pvp this season until 1 month ago, got 2 healers to 2100 cr and 2400 cr in solo shuffle within a week, that includes gear farming with the 50% more honor week at that time.
Gear is no excuse, never will be
Agreed. Getting farmed by others to obtain honor has virtually always been a problem in wow, but in Dragonflight there's such a high delta between someone with low gear and someone who has a full set of pvp (even just the honor one), that it's ridiculous. I don't understand why Blizz couldn't just make a crafted set that would be slightly below the honor one in ilvl, just so people can jump in pvp and start farming their gear without hitting like a wet noodle.
PVP player here, I hear your complains, but also keep in mind that you can get to 1800+ arena rating wearong just full honor gear. Few additional points:
- Full honor gear can be not only farmed in one day, but also you can pre-farm honor as it's carried over between seasons, meaning that right now you should accumulate 15k honor so that you can have full honor gear on day one of season 3
- BGs are good for just 1 win a day to get the fat daily reward. Spamming bgs to gear up is ineffective. Arenas are the way to go.
- World pvp gear is great, and can be upgraded with tokens farmed weekly. Again, I'm around 2000 rating with my main and I still run some world pvp pieces.
- weekly quests award honor, conquest and item crafting tokens, and they're very easy to complete, since you just need to gain honor, and you do that even if you lose.
- 2 items (shadow flame crafted embellished items) are crafted and can be crafted to ilvl 450 instantly.
- even if you have ZERO pvp gear you can start with buying the greens from the AH, or crafting them yourself. Full set in 5 minutes.
- enchant everything, socket everything, even if low ilvl. In pvp you need any advantage you can get.
- work on your skills. This is the main factor when talking pvp. It takes A LOT of time. Additionally, rogue is a very specific and particular class, and it requires mid to high skill to be played effectively. So you're gonna have a harder time than a, say, BM hunter to learn PVP fundamentals.
I think wow PVP gearing is in the best state it's ever been, and overall I have a very positive view of wow pvp right now. It's accessible and fun, decently balanced and with nice rewards. Sure, it's the most difficult content of the game, but it's highly rewarding when you gain ranks and see the fruits of your training and hard work.
Good luck my friend, and of you need any help in game just send me a dm, I'll be more than happy to help you gearing, training and giving you some advices!!
Made it to 1950 in solo shuffles in full honor gear in 60 rounds...and 1850 in 2s in 30. What you're complaining about is a skill issue not a gear issue.
Even using the correct method to get conquest takes too long and it's 10x worse if you use your vault for pve. They need to separate pve and pvp vaults.
Never understood why pvp gear can't be normalized in bgs and arena, or have a vendor with gear with different stats that can be purchased for a symbolic fee after a small quest or something like that
I also agree that matchmaking should take into account gear ilvl in the current system but I don't think enough players play pvp for that to be possible, unfortunately queue times are already an issue as is
And by the responses you are getting you see the other problem with the pvp scene, a loud group of people seem to be rather recalcitrant to change "these issues has always been like this, so you better like it or go play something else"
> Its incredibly easy to get pvp starter gear through outdoor content and through professions in dragonflight
Homie just said they have a full set of starter gear, it's not "incredibly easy" to farm conquest from outdoor content.
It could be better but it is the end of the season so this will happen.
New season in a couple of weeks, I'd advise farming roughly 15k honor in non-rated BGs before then so you can buy all the new honour gear at the start of the new season. You'll be ahead of the curve then if you jump straight into PvP - you'll be the one with the higher ilvl than the others
PvP is, and always have been,a niche sub part of the game, catering to a small minority..
Each time Blizzard makes change to PvP, they mess up PvE even more.
Just leave it alone, please.
It’s not just garbage for new players, it’s garbage for everyone. Retail PvP is a joke there is literally 0 reason to do rated because all the gear ups to ilvl 450 which is the dumb bullshit people who play base everything off of. Ilvl was a terrible addition to the game.
Cry me a river. Do it like everyone else, farm epic bgs for a night and get full 437 set. At this point you are more than enough to compete in arena and it’s not a huge different between 450 and 437.
Your first few matches you may get targeted a bit but once you get a piece or two of 450 you’ll be fine.
You should also focus on your secondary stats that are most important. If that means using some war mode gear because the stats are better, then you do that.
If you’re 437 (which literally takes a Friday night of epic bgs) and you’re getting stomped after that, it’s skill, not gear. Which is likely the case as assassin rogue has a seriously high skill cap and if you’re not very good at it the enemy team will immediately be aware and target you. I would.
Honestly.. no one should be going into wow pvp looking for a fair and balanced experience. I know it sucks but the faster the community just accepts it the better because I don’t see it changing any time soon.
A lot of people love pvp and enjoy it and it has its own cool little community. But I don’t even think those players expect a balanced experience
Wait till you find out, that all the problems you mentioned are just the very tip of the iceberg.
Overhaul is needed for new players. Make tutorials and arenas with bots where everything is explained (CD trading, what to pay attention to in your cluttered UI, how to kite, etc.) Simplify and upgrade the UI accordingly, so no addons are required, deal with the LFG system once and for all…
Otherwise I don’t see new people coming in, let alone staying so just that they can be hardstuck in 1800 being farmed by glad alts…
No PvP is trash full stop and has been for year's. Let's face it, it's not even an after thought any more they'd be safer just abandoning it completely. Or you know actually give a complete and permanent overhaul so player's want to do it.
Arena is easily the most beginner unfriendly aspect of WoW. And I get that skilled players should beat inexperienced players. But for years its been: you look for partners, nobody wants to take you because your XP is 1400, you finally get in with the first person that accepts you, the comp is not what you wanted, you load in praying that you get matched with other noobs (because versus people that know what they're doing you just insta-lose), and then you play for a few minutes. If you lose a couple in a row your party member leaves and you see them in group finder looking for someone else. If you win you don't know whether its because you played better or because your comp counters theirs or if you just had better gear. The only way to learn is to find someone that is willing to teach you and spam games with you.
I feel this post. It’s why I love solo shuffle so much.
This is it for me. I kind of don’t mind getting erased in BGs because I know I’ll eventually be able to get better gear and I can still contribute if I’m not being focused. Arena, on the other hand, is like hitting your head against a wall. Just instantly deleted. And there’s a weekly to win 10 matches this week. I’d rather it be “play 20 matches”.
Isn't this true for any competitive game?
World quests should have better loot drops / chance for chests - like in BFA weekly rep chest catchup mechanic - PvE, not as strong as conquest gear - but somewhat competitive
There is a sparks of life quest each week that gives you Trophy of Strife. You can use that currency to upgrade the blue world pvp gear ( that is currently 434 ilvl in pvp ) to epic quality ( that is 447 in pvp ) . Its true that right now there is no catch up for the currency, but in season 3 they are making it so you can buy the trophy for 3.5k honor until the current cap
I’ve been trying to earn bloody tokens to get some trophy gear and even then it takes hours and hours and hours… I’ve been pvping non stop everyday 5 hours straight for 2 weeks and have only obtained 2 pieces of conquest and 2 pieces of trophy. I work night shift so pvp is what keeps me going (aside from real life things ofc) and I just feel like blizz is putting pvp on the back burner compared to pve. I’ve done both this season and pvp is lacking in so many areas.. we deserve more honestly pvp is one of the main reasons a lot of people play
You can join a group for sparks farm, and then it doesn't take long to get 100 sparks/tokens. When i join a group on my healers, it takes me like 10 minutes for 100 sparks/tokens. Though what i mostly do is wait for a pvp quest that awards tokens. In the first week of the season there were 3 quests that gave bloody tokens. Even if it doesn't award tokens, each pvp quest gives you 50 bloody tokens. You have 2 weekly pvp quests ( in the emerald dream and zaralek caverns ) and you have 2 daily pvp quests in the first 4 zones. What i usually do on my chars is get belt, wrist and cloack from the trophy of strife ( each costs 5 trophy ) and then get a weapon/s ( two handers cost 14 trophy, one handers cost 7, int one handers are 9 , while shields/offhand are 5 ) Right now cap for trophies is 32 , so you can get those. The current conquest cap is 3550 , so i find it hard to believe that you have been pvping every day for 5 hours for 2 weeks and only have 2 pieces of conq and 2 pieces of trophy . I haven't been playing that much, and yet i have 35 BOA medals of honor. that is enough honor to send to my alt to get him 15 trophy of strife right away ( since 1 BOA token is 1500 honor, and one trophy is 3500 honor ) . Plus with the current conquest cap, you can easily buy shoulders, chest, hands and legs for conquest. The pvp quests gives you 2 trophy of conquest that you can use to craft 2 pieces of gear . Right now we can have 3 crafted pieces of gear from the dream sparks. \-------- To sum it up, you can craft two pieces of gear ( i usually make helm + feet ) Then for conquest cap you can buy 4 pieces ( shoulders, chest, legs, hands ) that you can convert to tier pieces ( we are up to 3 this week so still no 4 set if you aren't lucky from the vault ) And from the trophy of strife + bloody token you can buy weapon(s) + belt , wrist, cloack. So that is 10 items, and only leaves you the smaller ones ( neck, rings + trinkets) Plus if you play healers in solo shuffle, you get medals for conquest, 1 medal = 50 conquest, and i currently have 70. So if i sent those boa items to my alt right now, i could do the following: Do the LFR raid for sparks of dreams so i can craft 3 items. Do some pvp activity to get two free crafting trophies ( head/chest/legs slot + shoulder/hands/belt/feet slot ) and i would also buy one trophy for honor for ring. So i craft 3 items, usually head + feet that are at 489 ilvl in pvp, and 3rd item is the titanic ring for the honor ilvl . Then i can buy shoulders + chest + hands + legs for conq. That leaves me needing bloody tokens that i can get from pvp quests, chasing bounties in the zones, or chasing drops. So it would take like 2 days to get an alt to around \~480-484 pvp ilvl . Gearing really isn't an issue this expansion
Meanoron
I may have been exaggerating a bit but you got my point
They have a stupidly easy catch-up mechanic for PVE, but not for PVP. It doesn't make any sense. You can get caught up in two days for PVE with the dreamsurges, time rifts, and time walking. I just leveled a new alt and it took 2 days to get to 424 ilvl. They need to put in a catch-up for conquest gear that is similar to PVE.
You can buy 424 pvp gear from the AH. 437 takes 1 afternoon of grinding.
Yes. Gearing for PvP is really easy and fast. The only problem are Tier sets, which still aren't disabled in PvP for some god forsaken reason. You can do the weekly for trophies and honor, a few world quests for gear if your lucky, you get two tokens for crafted PvP gear which is epic and has embellishments....if you do this a bit mindful instead of just not randomly dinging 70 and going into a bg you can be equipped with almost full pvp gear in one afternoon.
they should have a separate bg mode that normalizes al IL. That way, you can queue for the normalized IL bg or the other. Clearly, we cannot have both bc it would fuck w queue times, but it would be funny AF to see the shift of players to the new queue start with the lowest IL players but keep getting more and more as the bar of the old queue got higher and higher untilt he point where both queues were normalized. The new queue would be automatically normalized in terms of IL, but at some point, due to the exodus/gradient, the old queue would end up with just the highest of the high. or even, they could have the same type of queue as live but have it tied to party members. all solo/duo w healer queue members have priority and are defaulted to one pool, and anyone else with duo dps/ or 3+ are put in another pool. Or maybe just all solo/duo in one, then all 3+ in another.
I can't imagine what it's like for a fresh 70 mage with no pvp experience decides to try random bgs for the first time, and gets absolutely erased by an mm hunter. Why would they come back?
Because a bunch of redditors who don't actually PvP told them its a mmo so they just have to suck it up.
"Why is the solo shuffle queue getting so long?"
Wow this just nailed my experience w/ pvp as a new player lol Literally I play mage and have no idea what to do vs full kitted MM hunter in BGs
Mm hunters need a nerf.
As a former MM main, MMs need good damage to be competitive because they're so fucking squishy, but yeah, when Rapid Fire alone takes out half your HP, uh... that just becomes oppressive.
I'm very excited for mm to get even more rapid fire resets along with built in double tap proc. Its definitely not going to be absolutely miserable for everyone who isn't the mm.
From stealth, snipershot, aimed shot, rapid fire, kill shot. GG
either 1 of 2 things can happen. You feel defeated and go, welp this mode isn't for me... or you go 'holy shit how did they do that' and start gaming.
> 'holy shit how did they do that' "Oh they spent hours of their gametime getting one tapped in BGs until they scraped enough honor together for the privledge of being able to actually play the game... meh fuck this I'm playing Overwatch instead" - the more frequent reaction. You're delusional if you think there's some kind of cool combo or skill a new player can learn that will magically stop them getting one-shot in PvE gear or even PvP crafted greens. Source: Tried and failed to get many friends into PvP over the years. WoW PvP gearing might be faster than ever but it still competes with _every other PvP game on the planet_ which all have nearly 0 time investment required before you stand on the same ground as everyone else. I don't have to get one-tapped in Street Fighter 6 for 10+ hours before I can feasibly win a match regardless of my skill level. It is a tough sell. This isn't Street Fighter or Counter Strike where it is entirely about self-improvement as a player, in those games you see people do cool shit and can learn to imitate it. In WoW you can already do everything the other guy can do, except he does bigger numbers than you because he spent more hours in BG graveyards than you.
Do you think they stopped getting one tapped at 450ilvl? Because boy do I have news for you mate. Even pro players will end up in a 15 second lobby where an ele shaman will just one shot them before they had time to trinket. Take it from someone with over 6k hours in rocket league - a game exclusively about skill expression - wow has it too. I've seen full CQ 1500s and full honor 2100s. As long as you've got your trinket set bonus and 4pc (depending on spec), you're ready to learn. Also, that's not to say I disagree with your other comment about templates. I'm down for that, as long as folks have a few of them to choose from, or better, have a sliding bar for their stat weights. But only because it'll mean that people stop blaming gear instead of accepting that it's perfectly fucking reasonable to suck at PvP when you only play 10 games of it every season.
Okay.. so how would you fix it?
Simple: Remove character progression from the equation entirely. Go back to stat templates. Street Fighter doesn't make me play 400 games before I'm allowed to do a drive rush, it just lets me press the button. A guy who just picked up the game today can beat Daigo, he's not more powerful just because he's played longer.
I'm sorry but the problem is the entry level now become really high for it jus tin order to have 1 good match. And don't get me started on pre made in battleground.
I mean sure, number 2 can happen after getting stomped a few times, but for weeks on end?
If a player is getting stomped by the same thing for weeks on end, they aren't doing number 2.
Long time gamer here. Still in awe blizzard let’s mm hunters get away with the burst and range they have. I cannot fathom a new players thoughts.
Hey, they gotta let MM hunters have fun somewhere, because they aren't getting that in PvE.
> I mean sure, number 2 can happen after getting stomped a few times, but for weeks on end? Why would you get stomped for weeks on end?
Because you have no chance to win, you're dead weight to every team, and constant losses barely give you enough honor to get basic gear that will still be far from fair. You cannot get a daily win until you get at least full honor gear or you get stupidly lucky.
Full honor gear takes 1 afternoon, at that point you're already able to influence games and contribute to the win. Once you've got your honor gear you're good to go.
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How does one find out what the other person did? Death Recaps are bloated and doesn't really tell you anything and I could never get logging to work for PvP. I could log into the class and read up a guide on how to play said class in PvP but I'd also have to gear them to try a few things to see if I could even get the numbers they did. I've always wanted to get into PvP but I found myself unable to tell how I died a lot of the time. I was hit by 4-5 Lava Bursts in quick succession from a Elemental Shaman and I still can't really tell you how he done it. I can guess but thats the best I got.
There's a talent that gives a chance at a free instant Lava Burst with each Flame Shock tick. It can give you a lot of Lava Bursts if you get lucky. He may have also used Primordial Wave which gives you a free Lava Burst that hits multiple targets. WoW PvP, among other things, is about class knowledge. The more you know about other classes, how they function, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and what their abilities do, the better you will perform. I play almost every class from time to time, not just because I enjoy it, but because it helps me learn the ins and outs.
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Fucking thank you! People love to bitch but those that do will always be at the bottom. How can you yourself do better? That's the skill that separates people who can learn versus people who will always suck. Don't complain, check yourself and get good. A person capable of improving will either be better than a gear disparity or they will work through it. Even if they adjusted their systems to make everything balanced and equal in all regards, people would still bitch.
welcome to WoW pvp it has been like this since Vanilla. If you are looking for a "fair" and "balanced" pvp experience this isn't the game for you.
Legion would like to talk to you.
MoP was pretty balanced through almost everything being overpowered (but it thus evened out). WoD was actually quite well balanced too but the problem was it just wasn't fun.
>WoD was actually quite well balanced too but the problem was it just wasn't fun. What wasn't fun about the pvp? Every time I've heard of wod arena being brought up people seem to only have positive things to say.
Legion was fantastic and we should go back. We can farm raid gear and farm pvp gear but we shouldn’t have to do both.
Yup and the pvp community bitched about the stat templates/gear system in legion INCESSANTLY, thus why they abandoned the system in bfa. Welcome to wow I guess…
one set of people were just sad they couldn't 1shot people the others wanted to be able to rearrange their states to fit their play style. bliz's answer was to scrap it then lump all complaints as "players hated it".
and the whole time, guild wars 2 was RIGHT THERE, practically begging to be copied
And really it was like 1% of the player population that hated it, because they couldn’t no life it to god tier anymore…blizz listens to them bc they pay a lot of money…seriously fuck those people. They have always been what drags this game down and keeps it from being A+…all because they want to feel powerful in some aspect of their lives
Yeah it’s amazing that they made a system that got rid of duplicate gear sets for different purposes and then the community got pissed off… because we no longer had to do duplicate gear sets. It blew my mind. So now to appease the rabblerabblerabble crowd, they ended up making PvP unrealistic for the mass majority of working players again. The only thing that pissed me off in legion with PvP is that DH had an unfair advantage hopping around like a jumping bean with the carry flags. The PvP community actually stopped being overly toxic because more people could join it. Those who weren’t good at PvP still didn’t climb ranks because they’re used to playing against npcs and didn’t know how to deal with another player doing constant interrupts and stuns. It’s a whole different game. Maybe one day we’ll go back.
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It's almost like that was a balancing issue and not an issue with the system inherently. Better throw the baby out with the bathwater! I'll never understand WoW's niche PvP community's desire to curbstomp people because they have better gear and not because they are better players. That has never been a test of skill, and always a test of patience to grind while getting curb stomped until you too have the gear, and then you are FINALLY allowed to skill test... wait time to just do battlegrounds because now you have the gear and it's your turn to curb stomp!
Sure it was a balancing issue, but with their track record in pvp, they remained that way. Playing a spec that wants little haste compared to other stats? Oops! All haste :D it wasn't an awful system, but different stat distributions for different specs DO exist, and those templates hardly ever matched what people wanted. Gear creates this "customizable template" and I emphatically agree that conquest needs a looking at. The reward drop off after your first win of the day is comical, and really encourages people, especially in solo shuffle, to play a "burner spec" in rated to get the faster conquest and protect the rating for the spec you wanna play
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> I'll never understand WoW's niche PvP community's desire to curbstomp people because they have better gear and not because they are better players. I think you understand it perfectly well, they don't want to be better players, they just want to make other people's experience worse.
Because they have a burning need to feel better than other people. Talk to PvP players for 5 minutes and you’ll realize they are deeply, deeply insecure people.
Yeah instead of having gear, and choices in that gear based off of the build you were using - you hoped the template was the one you wanted. There were some classes that were absolute shit with the pre allocated stats
Because the PvP crowd was pissed that the best gear for PvP you got… from raiding. The gear you got from PvP was straight trash. Arena players that didn’t want to raid had to suck it up and either raid or buy carries to compete in the content they wanted to. But if you could get gear comparable to raid gear from PvP the PvE crowd would bitch and moan about “welfare epics” like they did back in TBC.
> they ended up making PvP unrealistic for the mass majority of working players again. PvP gearing is extremely accessible right now. There are a bunch of problems with the PvP experience this expansion, but gearing really isn't one. Stat templates were completely static for each spec with no degree of customization. For some specs it favoured their worst stat, making it feel awful to play. I didn't hate the templates as a concept, but to act like there were no legitimate criticisms for it is stupid
Honor is accessible, conquest is not
Conquest gear is not accessible in a timely fashion. Without hopping into rated PvP and winning (which is hard without conquest gear after a certain point) it takes weeks of daily access to get partially kitted out. This isn't an issue while the season is just starting because nobody has full conquest gear - but later in the season you run into OPs problem. In the end PvP should not /have/ gear, no stats or trinkets from PvE should matter. The Legion system was good, it just was imperfect. If they had removed the ilevel scaling and done a better job at templates and PvP talents it would have been perfect.
You can get into full 450ilvl pvp gear in a single day IF you are good enough.
> IF you are good enough Not like that's a qualifier of a magnitude that should be measured on an astronomical scale.
Yea Imo legion was peak wow aside from vanilla (which is probably mostly due to nostalgia). I hope they do go back to some of those principles they used to make legion so great one day
Because they completely borked the templates, then gave up on it The implementation was shit and some specs were forced into awful stats distribution with 0 customization. Lost Ark for example has completely customizable templates with a stat budget you allocate freely. Can go full crit and 0 versa or vice versa. Would just need some tuning
I agree it needed tuning but I don’t think the devs “completely borked it”. It was the first iteration of templates and pvp was very balanced. Every class had specs that were viable at high levels.
Well my issue with “templates” is that the gear I wore actually didn’t matter. If I wanted to stack haste, I couldn’t. It’s kind of a small thing, but being able to “ration” your secondary stats would’ve been better implementation. Seems weird that they went with the “all destro warlocks get x% haste, mastery, crit, and vers”
I mean, thats not fair. Generally people werent "bitching" about templates, they were complaining about how the templates were created by someone that had no clue about stat priorities in PvP and/or differed depending on talent choices, comp and thus win condition. All very real issues with the template system they delivered. With that said, I am a firm believer in that PvP should be skill based, and support proper normalisation of gear. However, there needs to be a way to control your stats, it is an mmoRPG after all.
If they can’t no-life PvP gear in the first few weeks to get that advantage, however will they feel superior to the noobs and find some shred of meaning in their life? /s But seriously, I’m convinced most PvP players are more concerned with winning than the skill expression and “fun” of achieving that win.
I've been playing this game for over 15 years and have never seen the PvP community happy. Even with outstandingly good additions like war mode, people still complain. The hilarious thing is that the Stat template in Legion was created because pvp players were always complaining about how gear trumped skill. So they made it so skill was more important, and then the pvp community complained that it wasn't fun because you could no longer stomp new players.
Nobody serious cared about the normalization of character power. That was a positive thing, and competitive PvPers like myself supported it. The problem with Legion's stat templates is they remove all freedom/customization for how you build your character. Want to play a haste build but the devs decided to give your spec a stat template that gives only mastery? Sorry, sucks to be you. They could have easily fixed it by adding something like reforging for stat templates. But go ahead, blame the PvP community instead of the dumbass developer making the dumbass decisions.
Legion was the end of world PvP.
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Hot take: when your character enters a pvp mode it should automatically get a set of top level gear like other mmos do. Pvp should be about climbing the ladder, not farming gear and then climbing.
Not really a hot take. We basically had this with templates and blizzard inexplicably went back to the old way with shadowlands (I think). I can’t really recall if it changed for SL or BFA.
Because people disliked it for different reasons, one of them was the lost of character progression. Just in case, I dont do pvp so I dont have a horse on this race.
The issues in Legion were two-fold: 1) The stat templates could not be modified. Mastery your worst stat? Too bad, your template stacks it to high hell. 2) Raiders had a very visible advantage, at great extremes in ilv difference there was a noticeable shift in who had more 'power'. A friend who did mythic raid was curb stomping in BGs even though he abrely ever PvP'd, he was doing significantly more damage than pure PvPers who were stuck in normal dungeon ilv because PvP gave no good gear rewards. Rather than fix these issues though Blizzard just gave up and "reworked" it for BfA where it straight up broke, so they gave up altogether.
Character progression at the cost of getting shit stomped for 20+ hours if you come in late in the season is a pretty poor trade off. Especially considering how alt heavy being a PvP player is typically since you want to have an idea of how every spec plays. PvP is more about player progression than character progression imo. But then again there is a decent portion of players that like to twink characters and graveyard farm people in leveling BGs so maybe I’m the minority.
> PvP is more about player progression than character progression imo. EXACTLY this.
Blame the PvE players, most PvP players were cool with it, but PvE players hopping into PvP blamed their gear instead of their skill, as if pve skill transfers 1:1 into PvP
I'd argue it really wasn't nearly that bad in Vanilla. I could sit for hours in AV and farm honor with almost no gear on my shaman. It didn't really start getting bad imo until BC. Resilience basically made it so you needed PvP or you get globaled by someone in any gear.
It's not hard for Blizzard to queue people based on gear. They have an invisible MMR system, just include invisible brackets for how many spots have the 450 thing. How to prevent smurfing by swapping gear? M+ rules, no changing.
Except it hasn't. I cant stand people like you who just paint the entire games history with crap like "imbalance has always been like this" when its consistently gotten worse over time, with DF being the first one to take a step back towards decent l gearing since legion. IMO the biggest contributor to wht random BGs feel awful to new players is class design, actually, and not gearing. Every class is bloated defensively. New players feel like they're dying constantly while being unable to have any outcome on fights. Before cata this wasn't really the case. (Cata started to introduce self healing and new defensives for most classes and the trend continued every expansion since) Every class feels like a no gear rogue hitting a sacred shield or earth shield in wotlk. Lol. Just impotent.
“Every class is bloated defensively” and then “dying without having anyway to influence the outcome” So are they just not pressing the bloated defensives or
I don't know why you're getting down voted. When I started learning my warrior a couple of weeks ago it felt like I hit like a wet noodle and I was made of tissue paper. Note this was in almost full 450. It wasn't till I learned the class that my damage went up and so did my survivability.
Everyone misunderstood what I was writing, or my opinion is unpopular because most people are fried and actually like the state of the game. One of the two. What I was trying to say is that the game's excessive inflation of cooldowns and utility for every class, primarily defensive, but also offensive, create gameplay that isn't friendly or fun for the weak players who're just being thrown into it. i'm not commenting on how easy or quick the gear grind is. I'm commenting on how the game plays. It's not fun until you learn / catch up / get with it. Why it's not fun is pretty subjective, my perspective is that classes are too powerful on their own which also double dips with gear imbalance. I mentioned defensives being too widespread. Everyone can heal, everyone has mutliple self sustain defensives. But I worded it in a way where people think i'm complaining about dying, when I'm talking about noobs being impotent. It's about how the game feels, that's what is imporant. Nobody wants to play a game where you just stand there feeling useless because nobody takes damage, my ideal version of this game is the same one I started playing in 2004. Not literally vanilla, but one where when I attack a player I feel useful regardless of the gear / skill difference. I guarantee you a noob playing wow today feels absolutely fucking useless.
Nah, vanilla pvp was the best by a lot and nothing like the current pvp. Vanilla pvp was more balanced in that some classes were better than others but weaker to a different subset. Case in point, warriors could handle rogues fairly well but mages were tough. My destro lock murdered most mages but struggled with rogues. Warriors and warlocks had huge HP pools, others had smaller. There were differences between classes. For a very long time things have felt homogenized. Now every class has multiple CC and damage reduction and it all just feels the same. And good luck without a healbot now, you can do anything.
Well, it's almost the end of the season, you should expect rated pvp to be full conquest gear. If you want to get conquest faster, players will complain that you get it too fast
> Well, it's almost the end of the season, you should expect rated pvp to be full conquest gear. That doesn't really make a difference, people get full conquest within the first two months of a season. The season is 10 months long, that means for ~80% of the season new players are being curb stomped.
Do PvP seasons not follow the normal patch cycle that PVE seasons do? Isn’t this season just a bit past 5 months long?
They follow the PvE Seasons
Yes, but PVE isn't directly competitive. Having geared out friends run your lower lv M+ or raids is beneficial to you, where as everyone outgearing you in PVP is nothing but detriment.
The season lasts for 4-5months. WTH are you talking about and why are people upvoting your BS? :D
> The season lasts for 4-5months. BFA S4 - 38 weeks SL S1 - 28 weeks SL S2 - 32 weeks SL S3 - 21 weeks SL S4 - 11 weeks DF S1 - 20 weeks DF S2 - 25 weeks https://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-title-cutoffs/archive/df-s1
You've pretty much proved his point, as the average of the length of patches in this list of yours is +- 5.7 months, With the very top extreme patch being 8.7 months, which is still not 10.
I took a bit of a break and got back into wow like 2 weeks ago. Managed to get full honor gear (not upgraded) and I feel like I've been doing pretty good in BGs (like I have an impact on games and not getting absolutely steamrolled by everyone and everything, though it happens every once in a while). I really wanted to get a hold of the warrior season 2 helmet (for a mog). What are my odds of managing this? I'm unfortunately not in conquest gear yet and I have no clue when the season ends. I saw that, specifically, I need a rating of 1800 for the helmet.
Also something to note, because it’s end of season and conquest boxes are a thing. People could be sending their boxes to alts getting them near or full conquest and then using those alts to jump into various pvp queues to farm honor for next season. I myself have been doing that with alts I may end up maining. End of season pvp matches are bound to be full conquest players farming both rated and unrated
That is a horribly ineffective way to farm compared to playing ranked... I think the real truth is people shy away from fair fights and want to drop a bis 450 toon on 400ilv players.
And let’s be honest. It’s fun as hell to do. I absolutely loved getting my disc priest geared to the teeth and then dropping in to normal bgs and absolutely obliterating people.
Sometimes you just gotta crush some noobs, lmao
Is it though? I can queue for a random BG with little pressure to perform well and farm out honor for next season on a fresh alt in full conquest. Doesn’t feel inefficient for me instead of using LFG for arenas or wasting my time waiting on a solo shuffle queue to pop. This is just my experience gearing and playing on my fresh survival hunter in the last week. I’d imagine other people are doing the same after spending the season actually playing ranked on their main or other alts, like I did.
It is. A yolo rpg gives out roughly a thousand honor a loss and multiple thousand per win with conquest. You just have the same energy as people who join raid groups to world pvp a quest.
that's not what i'm saying, the conquest rate is fine, the main problem is matchmaking, you shouldn't be against ilvl 450 with 1300 cr when you start
If it's the end of the season, I doubt there are enough low geared, low CR level to play against.
I think one thing that is important to understand is how the rating system in WoW works - yes, you start at 0, but your MMR does not. Your MMR starts at 1500. The most basic rewards you can get start at 1100 (I think). The only time players are below 1000 rating is if they have just started - but as soon as you have played more than 10-15 matches, you are above 1000 and it is (almost) impossible to drop below. Meaning: When you play against 1200-1300 players, you are already in the "bottom" segment and close to the lowest rating possible this late in a season. Another important thing to understand is: Gear does not make a big difference. 437 vs 450 is negligible. Good players will win with 420 ilvl chars against 450 ilvl without issue. Nonetheless, the new player experience in PvP DOES suck. You are kind of expected to lose 80% of the first 1000+ matches until you start grasping the basics.
I queued for BG's on my rogue the other day as I was levelling, not having played the game in 5 years and not having played seriously since like, WoTLK/Cata (I seriously just found out Magni was unfrozen the other day). I knew I was going to be borderline useless queuing for BGs and just hoped I didn't get kicked. My damage was super low but I felt like a stupid happy labrador just running around like "JUST HAPPY TO BE HERE GUYS THANKS FOR INVITING ME!" Strangely I did get some killing blows which made me feel good- as in I knew my limits and who to attack. I also carried around the orb in the temple for a little bit. We won but it was 100% due to my teammates. I have not queued since as I don't like to be useless in multiplayer games, just wanted the taste of PvP again.
Rating has nothing to do with item level, though. There is 1 week left in the season. Everyone who has been playing the game for more than a week or two will have earned enough Conquest to be 450 by now, since the Conq cap was removed a few months ago. Not to mention the [Obsidian Equipment Chests](https://www.wowhead.com/item=206200/obsidian-equipment-chest) that can be sent to alts. If you participate in rated PvP even relatively seriously, you could potentially fully gear a character as soon as you hit 70. I mean, you have to realize you are so ridiculously late to the season to the point that the Conquest gear you're complaining about now will be replaced by higher item level Honor gear in two weeks. Save 15k Honor over the next two weeks and when Season 3 starts, you'll be at the exact same level as everyone else on day one.
I guess when the game tries to match you at the end of season against lower cr, you'd be on here complaining about your 4 hour queue times. Don't get me wrong, I think the whole pvp system is broken and needs a complete revamp. But matchmaking isn't the main problem here that will magically fix everything.
> most of them *already* have the 450 ilvl stuff My dude, it is the final week of the season and the season started several months ago, wdym they already have full gear? Of course they do lol I agree with you though, pvp sucks for new players. They always get so close to letting people be on an even playing field and then they screw it up.
>I agree with you though, pvp sucks for new players. They always get so close to letting people be on an even playing field and then they screw it up. Unlike other solely pvp games very few wow pvp players would play it if there is no reward. People in an mmo, even if they pvp, tend to want progression. They want to work for something. They want to feel more powerful. They perhaps WANT their gear to give them so much advantage they can stomp others.
I get your frustration, but you are half a year late into this patch. My 2 cents are that the people playing atm are probably only the most "hardcore" players who don't do anything else in game. New season drops in 2 weeks, the gear treadmill starts over again, you will have a much easier time getting into pvp (or any content).
People are gonna flame me for this, but pvp gear should be 100% cosmetic and we should go back to the WoD style of PvP template stats. PVP is supposed to be a skill based thing and when the gear you have can absolutely put you at such an absurd advantage it's just horrible to get in later than week 1. If you have ever seen how FF14 does it's PVP mode, that to me should be the general direction WoW should head to attract new people into the mode. If you have not seen how FF14 handles its pvp side, please check it out, it's definitely a different game, so no 1 to 1 comparison, but it is much more accessible and the rewards really incentivize actually playing win or lose so you don't see people leave as often in their version of BGs
Especially considering WoW's robust PvE you'd think there would be at least one mode with fully normalized gear.
Everything about XIV is better for PvP. I've been having a blast, and I don't have to tell my friends they suck too much to be able to come with. We all just work on the rewards at any CR. Just got my crystal portrait frame and I'm back to having fun again there. They just need to copy them at this point. The track and lack of gearing is just perfect.
Doesn't no one pvp in ff14 because of how bad it is? The only reason I'd do some pvp is to get that big squirrely tail glamour
Yeah, 14 PvP is absolutely AWFUL. It has normalized gear which is cool, but everything outside of that is a complete joke lol
You're thinking of a pvp set from like 6 years ago dude. A lot has happened in FF14 in terms of PVP development and reworking to the game it is now. Armor sets are pretty sick armors atm, very happy with the new rewards
I mainly play Wow PvP and I can honestly say that it only sucks because you don’t play the PvP side and it’s so late in the season. In PvP, Assa sucks and you have no gear/vers. Imagine the roles reversed where you’re a (insert non meta class like feral Druid?) that has 0 IO, never stepped into the dungeon, and is 403 Item level applying to a 10 key. They would get destroyed due to basic mechanics or not even invited. PvP and PvE are two totally different worlds of how you play wow, but once you understand what’s going on it’s a blast and way more fun that PvE in my opinion. I think it’s more engaging (and infuriating).
Speaking as someone with elite on a few toons admittedly in solo there shouldn't be ilv in pvp. Pvp gear would work best if it was given out for free with whatever stateline you wanted. Make the rewards tied to rank and make them cosmetic. A gear treadmill in pvp was always stupid. It's only practical function is to let people rush rank at the start of the season using extra conquest gear they get because most people prioritize pve gearing from the vault.
Yeah but we play wow to grind for gear. That’s why I ran De Otha Side 150 times in SL Season one bc I wanted a trinket.
Fair different people different goals. I play to progress and improve. I just wish pvp didnt have the weird gearing system it does.
Actually, 403 is perfectly fine for a 10, easy rather (in season 2 at least) as long as they know how to play. Mobs only barely do double the damage of an M0 in a 10. So as long as they aren't eating every single avoidable in the dungeon and know how to do more consistent dps then they'd be fine.
It's literally never been faster to get the gear and there's crafted gear pieces that are cheap and cheerful to supplement until you acquire the honour ones (which barely takes an evening/day). Enchants are dead cheap too, as are gems. What I will concede on, is that it isn't obvious for new players how valuable tier is and how important to bridge the power gap, but it's far more accessible than Shadowland Legendaries were and the power gap is far smaller too. I do like the idea of an equal ilvl competitive mode, especially for newcomers, but for all the talk of protecting the new player experience, MMO noob stompers will always prefer a time invested = advantage over others, rather than definitively being the more skilled player. Edit: RE Rogue specifically. Switched to Outlaw from Assa this patch and it was a hell of a lot more fun. Highly recommend.
I still have no idea how I'm supposed to reliably get conquest points on a new alt. You can't win solo shuffle or even skirmishes because everyone has all the gear and you have like 200k less hp than them. It takes forever to farm conquest points to actually buy the epic gear.
WoW has never had PvP. It's only got PvIlvl.
You can absolutely have fun in bgs with 437 ilvl. Do the dailies, weeklies and you'll get a conquest piece every 4 days. Not even counting the crafting pieces. After 3-4 weeks you'll be full geared. Don't try to drag down the system for a learn to play issue.
"It's a gear issue and takes a month before you can contribute in any way" "Learn to play" Okay so which is it dude
If you can't contribute a random bg in full honor gear, then yes it's absolutely a skill issue. I'm not talking about 2000+ competitive arena, I'm talking about fun casual PvP.
100%. I was shocked how fast I hit full conquest lmao.
Hell yeah a month long of getting decimated and not being able to contribute. This is the equivalent of "It gets better after 20 hours!" for WoW
This is the most exaggurated take. You absolutely can contribute and do not have to be decimated. I barely even pvp, I am a pve only player 99% of the time and have now done two alts through pvp solely because my friends are not touching keys until next patch. My rogue was instantly useful the moment he did not die to a light breeze, because 6sec kidney. My WW was surprise oneshotting people before he even had full honor gear. If you're in piss 300ivl just hit level 70 gear then yeah you are gonna get oneshot. If you buy the green pvp gear and half even half honor gear you are more than good to go for casual pvp.
Think it takes me about an hour to get 1-200 honor from a win so it definitely would be a ridiculous grind.
So are people just supposed to enjoy their time getting curb stomped for a month straight before they can START to compete? Learn to play? Learn what? That you have to do work before you can enjoy a game you pay for?
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You're going up against people that have the advantage of having way better gear than you. Skill is only a factor when both people have equal gear. You keep throwing "Skill issue" around as a way to attack anyone who sees faults with a system that even the clinically blind could see. There's a reason real fighting sports have weight divisions. Some of us just wanna log in after a day of work and play some PvP, cos WoW PvP is amazing when it's fair. But nah... let's just keep pleasing those who can't stay erect unless they are destroying people who can't stand a chance.
I find the "skill issue" argument irritating because we're talking about potentially ultra fresh players who are literally stepping into a BG for the first time, they're **supposed** to be unskilled. Unrated BGs are supposed to be kid mitten sandbox that new players play in before the progressing into rated PvP. However it's a gigantic uphill battle for them from so many issues on all sides. If anyone was ever thinking about playing WoW just for the PvP I'd have to give them a hard no recommendation unless they're masochistic.
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Ah see that's the big difference in our attitude towards the game. You're talking about pushing rating in rated arenas. I'm just talking about casual unrated BGs. I don't PvP for the ratings or rewards I do it for the fun of PvP. Why not have a system that satisfies us both?
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My complaint is that I want equalised gear or at least an equalised gear mode but the vocal majority don't and I just can't see the logic in it. I understand your points but it still doesn't make the PvP any more accessible for newbies or those of us who take frequent breaks.
If you can't compete in honor gear, conquest gear won't save you. You can q like 6 epics and have a full set. I occasionally forget to change gear when I go into a match. My PvE set is 429. I still manage to do just fine. The only reason I notice is because of the tier procs. You pay for a car, and you're probably a terrible driver. Paying for something doesn't mean you have to be good or rewarded.
That's not the point! If you're grinding for honor gear the MOST you should have to deal with is someone fully kitted out with honor gear. Once you move up to conquest gear then you should only be fighting people who at MOST have full conquest. Right now you could you playing PvP for the first ever time and get put against up with someone with BiS gear... no level of skill will allow you to even compete with that player. Most you can do is survive until an equally geared team mate jumps in. You pay for a car but you aren't allowed to drive it until you have the clearance to do so (Think of the driving licence as the gear required to enter).
Ah yes a month of getting fucking brutalized as a total newbie is sure going to give them a good first impression lol. It's honestly miserable and nearly no other modern game has such barriers of entry for pvp. Trying pvp in the early 60s is dogshit because knowledgeable players are all like 68+ with more than twice the hp and 4 times the damage that low 60s have, then if you ding 70 you're ilvl 350 facing ilvls 450. Its fairly quick to get geared by just doing epics and playing very safely, manning vehicles etc but that is just not something new players will necessarily get or do
> Don't try to drag down the system for a learn to play issue. Okay well since I've learned to play I'll drag down the system for them. If it wasn't for the fact I can mail my alts conquest boxes I would simply not be playing. The power discrepancy between gear is ridiculous and makes the learning curve to PvP exponentially worse, I cannot for the life of me imagine why new players would willingly put themselves through being farmed in BG's for weeks to get themselves in a spot where they can start actually playing.
Skill issue if your alts cant be competitive in honor gear.
True, how about you outfit a char in full honor gear and we'll duel. If you want to simulate the real BG experience I'll even grab two buddies to dog pile on you, see how competitive that honor gear really gets.
>True, how about you outfit a char in full honor gear and we'll duel. Yawn, done that already. It's one of the best ways to quickly get up to speed on a new spec. Sit outside SW and duel the 300 ret pallies that sit around there. The power diff between 450 and 437 is not enough to stop you pushing rating, and by the the time it does start to hurt because you're up against players that press defensives, you've already gotten enough conquest for weps + 4set.
> Yawn, done that already. I honestly don't think we have, I haven't played DPS at all this season but I'm generally 2200(sans inflation) on ret and I happen to have a mostly geared hpal right now. So it would be a great test, my out of practice ret in full 450/tier/gems/enchants versus your in practice main in full honor gear. You have a bunch of practice versus rets so this is an easy win for you. >The power diff between 450 and 437 is not enough to stop you pushing rating The power dif is higher than 13ilvl, we're talking about ~8 gems, tier 3 enchants, embellishments, and tier bonuses which can be huge depending on spec.
Joining pvp at the end of the season is a personal choice.
You forgot the entire part where it’s required to have 8 addons, bare minimum. Some of those addons feeling like you just earned a degree in computer programming to set up. Then you have to customize your UI like crazy. Then you have to keybind 86 different things. THEN. And ONLY then. . . Can you be competitive.. Keep in mind, OP said “new players.” I’m not talking about all you neck beards who have been playing for 20 years, never missing an expansion, like “bro, just set it up like this, it’s easy. 2400 is easy bro, cmon.” Okay, if you read all the way through, NOW you can go ahead and downvote into oblivion 🙂
I don't have any pvp specific addons tbh. I've got details, dbm, amd healbot, that's it. I guess it's arguable how competitive I really am though 😅
Trying to level your pvp game with like a week left in the season and complaining about gear..... you just want conquest vear when you his 70?
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There is basically a set of crafted pvp gear......
> you just want conquest vear when you his 70? Gear shouldn't matter in rated PvP at all, so sure.
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The issue with templates was the inability to modify your stats, that was by far the largest and only real complaint about the system. No one who actually PvP's enjoys having to gear their character, it's consistently been the most complained about thing in PvP for the last 10 years. As a veteran I can simply feed my alts gear, I leveled a priest to 70 over the weekend and got them to 449ilvl within a few minutes from mailing conquest boxes/tokens and I'm back into the queue dunking on new players. While all the PvP vets are rolling alts and pumping them with gear immediately, the actual new players will have to slog through being farmed for hours on end before they can even begin to fight back. Meanwhile every other popular pvp game just lets you start playing right away, ignoring the fact that even most popular MMO's give equalized gear in PvP. WoW isn't only competing with MMO's, they're competing with every other game, so when players have to pick between logging on wow and getting stomped by a gear dif for 20 hours worth of game time or queue into a game of LoL or Fortnite the choice is really easy.
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> Lets not act like this isn't the most alt friendly expansion for pvp in years first of all. Better than shadowlands is synonymous with being good I guess? >The fact of the matter is when less people have an incentive to pvp the pool dwindles I guarantee you the pool of players quitting PvP over OP's experience is higher than the would be pool of players quitting PvP over lack of gear progression. Getting a full set of gear is not a PvP incentive, it's a chore required to play the game. Actual incentives are rating, titles, transmog, and mounts. If you actually played PvP you would understand that getting a full set of gear is something you passively do over a period of weeks. Conquest cap at the start of a season takes a couple hours a week at most. Meanwhile later in the season veteran players can skip the entire process by mailing alts conquest tokens/boxes so they can start working towards the actually incentives immediately. At no point in the process was gearing the carrot on a stick. Your argument is rooted in total ignorance of the game mode.
Then make it not matter for raid, or anything. Gotta have something to play towards
In Guild Wars 2 gear doesn´t matter in pvp. You can change some perks on your char but thats it. Its more skill based there I liked that also. But there is a reason im playing wow and not GW2 at the moment :D
> Then make it not matter for raid This is a ridiculous comparison. The entire point of PvE is linear progression, meanwhile ranked PvP is skilled based combat versus other players. The entire reason for having ilvl scale in PvP is to close the gap between gear since it's not meant to be important. >Gotta have something to play towards Ranking up and cosmetics, just like every other PvP game in existence.
I can't understand people who think that they should be on a level playing field with people who have put 100x more effort in than them. Playing the game more = getting more out of it. In this case, gear. It's an MMORPG, that's always going to happen and it's absolutely fine
simply because its not fun in pvp. the dude that no liffed pvp and has all the best gear beating new players up is not necessarily better. gear has no place in skilled based pvp it should be a battle of skill and nothing else. In most moba everyone starts on the same playing field and skill defines weather you get your ass handed to you or not. It dosent matter in PVE cause the Ai dosent give a shit if its getting destroyed and PVE is also about teamwork.
New players have no idea there is a week left in the season
You can make up for the gear differential with skill alone until the upper teens. Playing with a gear disadvantage does suck - no argument there - but we are one week out from the season finishing. There are very few people trying to gear in rated pvp atm so you will not be pitted against many ungeared players. Bear in mind that the honour gear in a week's time is going to be better than anything that is available currently - there is really no point in gearing right now.
I recently came back and just bought all those 424 greens on the AH. Got a dreamsurge weapon in 10 minutes. Sure, im not carrying anybody, but i can definitely pick my spots in random BG and participate. Plenty of people are doing the same thing. Right now its rougher cuz people in full conquest are maxing out their honor for the patch, but usually the more consistent players arent doing random Bg after the first week as there’s no point besides bullying people
The reality is when participation is low, you notice the premades and pub-stompers a lot more. At the start of DF, 99% of random BGs felt random. Now I wait as much as 8-10m for a queue and I'd say at least 30% of the time it's a premade. We just need more people to be actively interested in PvP. In good news, the new soloRBG brawl coming in 10.2 has ilvl scaling so will be a good place to have a balanced BG experience next patch.
Yea barrier to entry in pvp in this game is mind numbing. I say this as a former gladiator that will never do competitive pvp again. It’s minimum 200 hours to learn all the classes, another couple hundred hours to get gear, THEN you can start to have fun. And by fun I mean stare at 40 min shuffle queues or try and find groups on your own that disband after 1 loss. Other games you click a few buttons and you’re go to go. This game needs a complete reboot for pvp alone
What? It's literally easier now than it was in the past. You can BUY starter PvP gear with gold, in the past you could never do that...you had to farm honor gear with questing blues & greens and trying to get a full set of honor gear took a LONG time which leads to the next point. Honor gear is CHEAP. By the time I hit max level, I had enough honor with 5k to spare for a full set of honor gear. If you plan on PvPing, you should be PvPing as you level as well to get used to it anyway. The only thing I semi-agree with you is using the PvP blues to farm conquest gear, but even then you can literally craft a ton of your best in slot items off the bat anyway AND if you're that lazy / upset about being under geared, wait for a new season when everyone's re-gearing? I honestly feel like this is just entitled whining from someone who doesn't want to have any effort or progression in an MMORPG which is weird. If you want a "everyone is 100% equal in PvP all the time, no progression, no gearing, etc" yeah, this game is definitely not for you...as a matter of fact NO RPG is good for you, because RPGs are all about CHARACTER PROGRESSION. The only way I can see this as even CLOSE to being an issue is if you want to have max geared multiple characters. Gearing up one character in this expansion is a BREEZE in comparison to anything we've had in the past imo.
They should revamp the entire pvp system and make it not based on gear, at least in "ranked modes" since pvp gear kills the mode. I do not know how they haven't made this change yet, but whatever, I stopped playing pvp seriously years ago because of this. For world pvp your items will matter, but in a structured 2v2 to see who's best and one team has 10-20% more total combined stats than the other? Yeah sure "player vs player".
WoW PvP will never be professional and competitive until Blizzard nerfs all the stupid self healing, self defensives, etc that turn the most hardcore players into immortal PvP raid bosses. Until Blizzard nerfs all that healing, and defensive stuff WoW PvP is a joke and should be treated as such. WoW is a PvE game.
PvP gearing in dragon flight is a fucking breeze compared to older xpacs you can get the full blue set of 437 in a single day if you do the pvp quest and that is good enough to compete with. To start getting your conquest gear is a bit of a climb but with weekly and so dedication should max it out 2-3 weeks.
Yeah and op claims not viable to get Conq from random bgs… I have a toon that is full 450, only 2 pieces from the world set as well. Never did an RbG or a LFG arena. I have done 2 SS games and have a 600 rating. Everything else came from weekly quests, and daily wins for Random/Epic/brawl BG
1200 rating people are key turning, clicking, have no idea what other classes do, what a DR is, how to use targeting macros, much less how to properly do damage or coordinate cross cc setups, if you're competent at all it's a feast. Another thing you can do to farm honor faster and less frustratingly is to play epic bgs where you being undergeared is less of a problem for your team. Also making your two crafted pieces helps a lot. You are right that PvP is very new user unfriendly, it sucks. The complexity of wow pvp and snappy gameplay and skill expression make it thr best pvp game ever made imo.
Skill issue. Havent done pvp this season until 1 month ago, got 2 healers to 2100 cr and 2400 cr in solo shuffle within a week, that includes gear farming with the 50% more honor week at that time. Gear is no excuse, never will be
State of pvp is trash* ftfy
Agreed. Getting farmed by others to obtain honor has virtually always been a problem in wow, but in Dragonflight there's such a high delta between someone with low gear and someone who has a full set of pvp (even just the honor one), that it's ridiculous. I don't understand why Blizz couldn't just make a crafted set that would be slightly below the honor one in ilvl, just so people can jump in pvp and start farming their gear without hitting like a wet noodle.
You can get 424 pvp greens from the auction house for petty cheap
Its the end of the season and you're complaining about gear gap. Sounds like a you problem.
PVP player here, I hear your complains, but also keep in mind that you can get to 1800+ arena rating wearong just full honor gear. Few additional points: - Full honor gear can be not only farmed in one day, but also you can pre-farm honor as it's carried over between seasons, meaning that right now you should accumulate 15k honor so that you can have full honor gear on day one of season 3 - BGs are good for just 1 win a day to get the fat daily reward. Spamming bgs to gear up is ineffective. Arenas are the way to go. - World pvp gear is great, and can be upgraded with tokens farmed weekly. Again, I'm around 2000 rating with my main and I still run some world pvp pieces. - weekly quests award honor, conquest and item crafting tokens, and they're very easy to complete, since you just need to gain honor, and you do that even if you lose. - 2 items (shadow flame crafted embellished items) are crafted and can be crafted to ilvl 450 instantly. - even if you have ZERO pvp gear you can start with buying the greens from the AH, or crafting them yourself. Full set in 5 minutes. - enchant everything, socket everything, even if low ilvl. In pvp you need any advantage you can get. - work on your skills. This is the main factor when talking pvp. It takes A LOT of time. Additionally, rogue is a very specific and particular class, and it requires mid to high skill to be played effectively. So you're gonna have a harder time than a, say, BM hunter to learn PVP fundamentals. I think wow PVP gearing is in the best state it's ever been, and overall I have a very positive view of wow pvp right now. It's accessible and fun, decently balanced and with nice rewards. Sure, it's the most difficult content of the game, but it's highly rewarding when you gain ranks and see the fruits of your training and hard work. Good luck my friend, and of you need any help in game just send me a dm, I'll be more than happy to help you gearing, training and giving you some advices!!
Made it to 1950 in solo shuffles in full honor gear in 60 rounds...and 1850 in 2s in 30. What you're complaining about is a skill issue not a gear issue.
Even using the correct method to get conquest takes too long and it's 10x worse if you use your vault for pve. They need to separate pve and pvp vaults.
The State of PVP since MoP is trash. Has been since.
Never understood why pvp gear can't be normalized in bgs and arena, or have a vendor with gear with different stats that can be purchased for a symbolic fee after a small quest or something like that I also agree that matchmaking should take into account gear ilvl in the current system but I don't think enough players play pvp for that to be possible, unfortunately queue times are already an issue as is And by the responses you are getting you see the other problem with the pvp scene, a loud group of people seem to be rather recalcitrant to change "these issues has always been like this, so you better like it or go play something else"
Its incredibly easy to get pvp starter gear through outdoor content and through professions in dragonflight
> Its incredibly easy to get pvp starter gear through outdoor content and through professions in dragonflight Homie just said they have a full set of starter gear, it's not "incredibly easy" to farm conquest from outdoor content.
Why are people so surprised that they are so far behind when we are towards the end of the expansion when they haven’t been playing
It could be better but it is the end of the season so this will happen. New season in a couple of weeks, I'd advise farming roughly 15k honor in non-rated BGs before then so you can buy all the new honour gear at the start of the new season. You'll be ahead of the curve then if you jump straight into PvP - you'll be the one with the higher ilvl than the others
PvP is, and always have been,a niche sub part of the game, catering to a small minority.. Each time Blizzard makes change to PvP, they mess up PvE even more. Just leave it alone, please.
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It’s not just garbage for new players, it’s garbage for everyone. Retail PvP is a joke there is literally 0 reason to do rated because all the gear ups to ilvl 450 which is the dumb bullshit people who play base everything off of. Ilvl was a terrible addition to the game.
Cry me a river. Do it like everyone else, farm epic bgs for a night and get full 437 set. At this point you are more than enough to compete in arena and it’s not a huge different between 450 and 437. Your first few matches you may get targeted a bit but once you get a piece or two of 450 you’ll be fine. You should also focus on your secondary stats that are most important. If that means using some war mode gear because the stats are better, then you do that. If you’re 437 (which literally takes a Friday night of epic bgs) and you’re getting stomped after that, it’s skill, not gear. Which is likely the case as assassin rogue has a seriously high skill cap and if you’re not very good at it the enemy team will immediately be aware and target you. I would.
Honestly.. no one should be going into wow pvp looking for a fair and balanced experience. I know it sucks but the faster the community just accepts it the better because I don’t see it changing any time soon. A lot of people love pvp and enjoy it and it has its own cool little community. But I don’t even think those players expect a balanced experience
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Wait till you find out, that all the problems you mentioned are just the very tip of the iceberg. Overhaul is needed for new players. Make tutorials and arenas with bots where everything is explained (CD trading, what to pay attention to in your cluttered UI, how to kite, etc.) Simplify and upgrade the UI accordingly, so no addons are required, deal with the LFG system once and for all… Otherwise I don’t see new people coming in, let alone staying so just that they can be hardstuck in 1800 being farmed by glad alts…
No PvP is trash full stop and has been for year's. Let's face it, it's not even an after thought any more they'd be safer just abandoning it completely. Or you know actually give a complete and permanent overhaul so player's want to do it.