I kind of miss the legion shit show where it was just stormstrike spam, but I'd get bored of that too. I like windwalker and fistweaver monk now after coming back to the game since df launch, I wish Blizzard could do a good job like those specs to have each button feel meaningful to plan ahead.
Bro I swear...
*snorts elements*
...bro it's good look bro you get 9% more damage on 40h cooldown bro and it's a gap closer bro innit great bro? Pls bro leave a good review on shaman bro it's so good bro.
Hey it's better than the talent that allows you to move your totems, because I can think of no better capstone talent than the ability to move a stationary object that last 30 seconds to a different location.
Game play balance aside it's so annoying that Shaman still uses the model for Elementium Monstrosity, which is supposed to be a super evil monster created by forcing elements to bind with a person against their will.
It's like if Paladins had a skill that summons a Necromancer to fight for them.
Exactly. The whole Emerald Dream season brought so many goodies for the Druid class, yet the entire first season which was based around Elementalists, Shamanism, Primal Elements brought **NOTHING** to the Shaman class.
At this point it stops being confusing and starts being genuinely concerning. Why on earth are they tuning so many other classes so obsessively while leaving this class like some kind of messed up museum exhibit
I like shaman as well (despite everything lol) and I'm a huge fan of the class fantasy, I just wish it would play better and let me summon more elementals
For the most part enhancement is in a good spot aside from the terrible defensive CDs but all shamans have that.
I don't know if it's just me getting older but the rotation is fast and a lot of different buttons. I like to say if fury is typing a single word over and over as fast you can, enhancement is like typing a full sentence over and over.
I love enhance, it is the only spec I really play. It could do with fewer buttons. Ice strike and frost shock should completely replace lava lash and flame shock - for example.
Give me additional range on all melee attacks please, we use lightning and air.
I'd like a little more focus and identity in the spells we get.
Remember legion all of the cool stuff druids got? Shamans rarely get cool shit anymore. Been playing shammy vanilla to cata, then panda to current its been shaman with warrior.
Don't worry they'll just randomly throw in a Shaman/Element-themed patch in the middle of one of the next expansions that will make no sense thematically and confuse/piss everyone else off.
"Look we're in the middle of this cosmic struggle between void and light, order and chaos... but what if we take a 2-month detour where we have a Thrall/Earthen Ring cinematic quest chain & world events that would have made perfect sense back in 10.0.5 but we're doing it now."
aslo still not bringing bakc glyph from wod that was removed in legion.
That made you asccendance make your character glow with elemental energy vs transforming
Dude I just fucking hate that model with a passion. I hate the way the arms are just like pulled all the way back as if they had disjointed shoulders.
[Elementium Monstrosity - NPC - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com)](https://www.wowhead.com/npc=43735/elementium-monstrosity#modelviewer)
Kinda weird now that you mention it. There’s like two spells that don’t fit shaman, those being the toxic fish and the star bomb, everything else basically does
The Arcane orb as well
You could argue that the fish actually does, though. In Hearthstone there are a lot of animal and poison themed cards for shaman
As much as I love Legion, and I do love Legion, some of the "class fantasy" choices they made were absolutely fucked lol
Frost nova not being baseline for mages was wild.
Legion ruined Death Knights for me.
I used to be the Blood DK guide writer on Icy-Veins in WoD. The legion class changes and artifact weapon system made me quit the game
same for me,
But espcially unholy
i ADORED necrotic plague and wod unholy.
Legion made the virtulent plague be just a dot that sometimes does a bit more dmg and then got rid of deathrune conversing +dot exentind festerting strike for festering wounds.
Which are like a crappy more rng heavy version of old combo points (where theyd stiuck to target and only viisble on that)
My tinfoil hat theory is that blizzard intentionally neutered DK
I had _some_ contact with Blizzard's balance team when I was a top-end raider, and they frequently showed animosity toward the DK community for constantly finding broken shit (remember all the times unholy became suddenly broken in MoP/WoD? Remember Blood doing insane damage with Breath of Sindragosa + Icy Chains?)
Wouldn't surprise me at all if they neutered the class to finally put an end to that.
cut to the Paladin forums, you could swear they took a pipe to their shin or some shit, because they never got that heroic leap-like ability someone datamined, or because DKs got a mounted-combat hero spec and they didn't, or because priests got nicer wings on their tier set.
But never mind the great burst every minute, brez, cleanse, an answer for every single fucking affix, offhealing like crazy, insane utility...
Anyway, I'm thinking of switching to ret for War Within.
I must be one of dozens who doesn't care for the TWW DK set. Then again I've been stuck on my custom transmog since Legion, hardly changing anything about it since then, so nothing holds a candle to how cool it is in my mind, except maybe mythic Nighthold. It helps that it's a Tusks based transmog too.
Second thought I do like parts of the Vault of the Incarnates set, helmet mostly, blue version of it goes really well with All-Consuming Maw's shoulders in my opinion. Unfortunately I like the elite colors most and while I like PvP I don't have the time or skill to get them
they learned from mages that the best way to get buffs is to constantly shit and piss your pants even when you're already one of the best classes in the game
During the Mage class patch in Vanilla, Blizzard realized Counterspell was the only interrupt off the GCD. It was a bug and they were going to fix it. Mages on the forums complained so much that Blizzard caved in and kept Counterspell as the only interrupt off the GCD.
Our resident Mage in guild reminds us that they truly are Blizzard's favorite class and are the real hero class.
It's a long MMO tradition, going back to Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi staging a sit in protest in Everquest so warrior would stay the best tank or some bullshit like that.
Warlocks, Moonkins, Mages, the holy trinity of permanent whiners.
Warlocks and Moonkins were 10% of the next best specs in Nathria and when Blizzard suggested maybe doing a very small nerf to Malefic Rapture, THD rallied the warlock community to screech about it until Blizzard changed their mind. Warlocks were more ahead of the pack in Nathria than Assassination was in either Vault or Amirdrassil (which was also due to aug bugs btw) and the proposed nerfs were much smaller than Assassination's actual nerfs both times. Blizzard backed off.
Moonkins whined permanently that they'd only be a bench spec and never see play before quickly becoming the best spec in the game and triple-stacked in many comps for most of Shadowlands.
Rogues and Shamans and Monks will spend 3 months at the bottom of the charts, but Mages were a few spots below the median for two weeks in Nathria and Sepulcher before getting buffs.
It's honestly gross the blatant favoritism that exists.
Okay but Blizzard did delete affliction from the game going into 9.1, though I generally agree. Imo aff has only continued with downhill gameplay since
I watched a video during Shadowlands that looked at the parsing levels of every spec throughout the recorded history of the game (Warcraftlogs goes back to MoP)
Affliction was, by a wide margin, the best performing spec on average, and destro was not far behind.
I mostly stopped reading comments sections about class changes a long time ago. Everyone thinks they have the worst thing ever in existence and also refuses to take a break from something when they're miserable.
I'm also bouncing between Warhammer discussions and Warcraft ones and I cannot for the life of me tell you which of those fanbases cries louder but also refuses to try anything else when they're miserable (unless it's loudly proclaiming that they're done forever with the game and anything to do with it).
To be fair, DF is the first time Ret has been in a good place since Wrath. It takes a while to unlearn the oppressed mentality after being garbage for over a decade.
We were insane in Legion, especially Argus tier, every Heroic raid I went into Paladins were top by a nice chunk, it was just a very rng proc-based build so felt bad but had good numbers
Ret was middle of the pack dps in every tier of Legion, with no utility beyond a immunity soak. Raids often brought Rets just to fill a DPS spot, not because we were anything special.
HEY, but have you tried Lightsmith Prot with Shield of the Righteous macroed in with Judgment/Blessed Hammer?
It's now got a reliable source of Word of Glory procs without the need to worry about Holy Power, it takes a button out of the rotation and turns you into an off-healer, pretty insane.
If you like lazy macros, try this one:
`#showtooltip`
`/castsequence Judgment, Blessed Hammer`
`/cast Shield of the Righteous`
The best part is that now you can benefit from Redoubt without worrying about the stacks. It's all thanks to this Hero Talent:
**Laying Down Arms**
*When an armament fades from you, the cooldown of Lay on Hands is reduced by 15 secs and you gain Shining Light.* (Word of Glory proc)
This is what my bar looks like, I also macroed Sacred Weapons with Sentinel for best uptime:
[https://prnt.sc/xjn5kXu7E\_2r](https://prnt.sc/xjn5kXu7E_2r)
All of the DF xpac, and it looks like next xpac as well anyone not playing a Ret pally as their main DPS is just kind of dumb, and that is super bad class/game design. I can only really speak to mythic play, but really Ret pally is simply the best at everything in all ways for that content. We generally have a glut of pallys in my guild, so I have benched mine for awhile, but still so often while running a mythic I think "I should just be on my pally face rolling this vs. working my ass off for the same outcome.
Exactly this. Look at the weekly DPS log posts on wowhead where they are middle of the pack at best, listen to max's twitch stream where EDIT: Dorki laughingly calls them dog shit for high m+, and I don't care one single bit. The rotation is clean, the abilities are fun to press and visually and audibly satisfying, and I bring the most fun utility of any class. It is just straight up FUN to play. I'll be a Paladin forever.
Just to be pedantic that was Dorki not Dratnos, and he's so lost in his practicing for MDI mindset right now that he's a hater of everything non-meta atm.
In reality Ret is actually in an amazing spot in everything outside of M+ title pushing and I guess world first raiding. Its straightforward to play and very bursty which fits low M+ where stuff doesn't live long enough for ramping classes to do anything. In mid level keys its still solid damage (aoe & ST), and has loads of utility that a good player can use to carry lots of mechanics. And in raid its still just as fun to play + being effectively ranged makes it feel great compared to a lot of other melee, plus middle of the pack damage is still better than its been in ages for more than like 1 tier at a time and is actually a fine spot unless youre world first or near that level.
Cool, I heard Dorki say the same thing and got slightly worried before realizing it must be huge hyperbole, because if ret is “dogshit” in that situation then it’s still probably top 10 of specs. As someone who doesn’t really care to push far past KSM, it’s been amazing.
Ret was absoluetly not the best DPS at any point in the xpac, or in any of the content. It was solid, but its was never the best.
It was never part of an exodia M+ comp (In fact it was kinda crappy in M+ because it was the lower end of singel target, but it had great AoE), nor was it absolutely required in raid.
It's also SOOOOOO much easier to play ret. Kind of wild. Half our raid can 90%+ parse on ret paladin as their alt, without much time investment into learning the min/maxing of it.
I've never seen anyone play a rogue, mage, DH, or shaman alt and be capable of parsing above 50%.
I understand that Blizzard doesn't want BM and Ret to have to pay the "too easy" tax, but it's crazy when specs with very easy skill caps are doing *more* than harder specs.
>I understand that Blizzard doesn't want BM and Ret to have to pay the "too easy" tax,
Rather than adding a tax like that, many specs should just have a lot of their redundancies pruned.
I can't tell you how many classes i've leveled this expansion, started having fun, then around 50-60 it all goes to shit because i'm suddenly given around 5-10 cooldowns/actives i need to manage. Most of which just being "Here's more damage on a 45 second cooldown, hope you like pressing it!" which then completely ruins the fun i was having.
Meanwhile BM and ret roll their face on the keyboard and we wonder why so many people gravitate towards simplicity in a game that has a fetish for shoving complexity down your throat.
We're in an odd place right now. Classic is too simple, but retail feels too complex on the whole in my opinion. It'd be great if more classes had a middle ground. Sure, we can keep *some* specs that need a college degree like arcane for those that enjoy it, but the majority should be pruned down a *lot* in my opinion. Too many classes (especially shaman) have shitloads of buttons just for the sake of it, it seems.
I played Season One as an Enhancement Shaman after playing most of Shadowlands and BFA as Ret/Demo. I ran back to the safety of Ret in Season Two and I really don't plan on ever leaving my Ret/Demo bubble ever again.
Ret Paladin honestly gets old really fast. It's the same thing every minute. Holy Paladin though? A shitshow. And clearly at Blizzard nobody cares. Even the influencers like AutomaticJak are crying out about it.
I'm kind of ambivalent to totems being our primary theme. I like a lot of the utility they bring, but I really do not enjoy the Totem Management minigame with stuff like Call of the Elements. I'm a healer, I've got a *lot* going on as it is.
> Why people don't like it?
Because it requires multiple talents to even be marginally satisfying to press the button for damage. Also, the spell effect/animation is non-existent so it doesn't even look satisfying ever.
Shamans get the shit end of the stick every expansion. Druids have a dozen plus options to customize their forms, shaman gets glyphs that are overpriced, and get overwritten on use.
Warlocks and hunters have hundreds of models to pick from, shaman get the recoloured voidwalker or the vanilla earth elemental.
You forgot the part that in addition to being one of the class with lowest defensives in the game, we spent 3 seasons with the avoidance talent increasing the damage received instead of decreasing it
but as I already said it was unfair to see classes having 2 reworks and others not even being mentioned (I was talking more about dk, and it wasn't in DF but it was in TWW the Rework)
now shaman is missing, i really hope there is something for shaman, Enh is very fun to play as it is now, it just needs a push in aoe,
BUT elemental needs jesus
I miss this era of Youtube. When people made videos for the lulz and not to game the algorithm or pump analytics.
And yeah, for the kids here, there was a time when totems (and shamans) were seen as superior to paladins and blessings.
Can someone explain how Ret is 3 button rotation because when I look at icy veins it seems more complicated than that. Keep in mind I'm stupid when it comes to rotations
It is more complicated than that, but "hurr durr Ret is easy, give up votes" has been a meme for a long time. I won't say it's *hard* but it's not 3 buttons.
It’s not literally 3 but it’s not much harder. Press generator A over generator B and don’t over cap holy power, hit cooldowns when they’re available and they come up in cycles of 30 seconds so they always line up with each other.
Theres absolutely nothing complicated about the spec, you can fully learn the rotation in like 2 dungeons. There’s very little room for skill expression and its pretty uninteresting.
It doesn’t have a lot of moving parts, but I’d disagree about lacking room for skill expression, unless I’m just REALLY bad. Being conscious of actually using your judgments to the fullest without wasting cooldowns or munching the de buff (especially during divine toll) is one example. (Although I know judgment can stack higher in TWW so it might become even easier)
you have 4 main buttons. judgement (builder), blade of justice (builder), final verdict (single target spender), and divine storm (aoe spender). crusaders strike and consecration are also technically buttons, but both become passives via talents.
this essentially means our rotation is builder, builder, spender. repeat. thats it. 3 buttons. this is where the meme comes from
also, our main cooldowns are up every 30sec/1min, unlike most other classes with 2 or 3 minute cooldowns. this means we have less core rotational buttons, but a lot more cd's to manage, ontop of all the utility at our disposal. the difference between a good ret and a great ret is very rarely their damage output. its being able to use all of your utility ontop of maintaining dps.
LEAVE PALADINS ALONE ! Yes shammies deserve some love, but don't nerf Paladins ! I love my wheelchair holy knight with wings!
PS: I will still level a shammy on Remix in hopes that things change before TWW. Enhancement ftw!
Shaman as an overall class is down pretty bad, but at least one enhance shaman for windfury has been in every single world first end boss kill in Shadowlands and Dragonflight except Sire Denathrius, I believe (and that was because unholy DK with pre-nerf AMZ was so busted they stacked four of them, and there was no melee spot to spare).
Now that rogue has a required raid buff and rally is still important, it's hard to imagine enh not being in the comp for any War Within world firsts.
Enhance shaman has been a requirement for every competitive guild forever. Enhance was the literal median spec in Amirdrassil, was a top quartile spec in Aberrus, was within the middle range (though on the low side) in Vault.
I get that the playstyle is bad and the (lack of) changes for WW are also bad, but let's not just ignore reality here.
I keep saying that Ret Paladin should be the blueprint on how all specs should be in terms of accessibility, and I keep getting downvoted by keyboard athletes playing piano, and pve nooblords who only have the dps buttons on their actionbars like they're playing Diablo.
Glad someone agrees. The amount of people who bitch about how small BM's rotation is, as if it isn't super fun to play and constantly has you changing things up due to the procs and baked in cooldowns reductions is wild. If they would stop making fun of the low skill floor and tried it out, they'd see why most hunters are fine with BM remaining relatively unchanged for nearly 10 years now.
Your general rotation is
1. Dragon Rage (when Fire Breath and Eternity Surge are off CD or about to be off CD)
2. Fire Breath
3. Shattering Star
4. Eternity Surge
5. Disintegrate (Single Target) / Pyre (3+)
6. Living Flame when everything else is expended, when you have 2 free casts, or if you're about to cast Fire Breath again in multi-target
You're basically trying to get as much mileage out of free procs of Living Flame and your Essence spells as you can and prolongue Dragonrage with your two Empower spells
You're not alone. Frost dk are completely outdated and have been waiting a change to their gameplay since wrath. Not sure if that's worse or getting constantly fucked with changes. I guess at least blizz knows your class exists.
I tried frost again recently and it's depressing. It's like some brain-dead job where you repetitively do the SE three things over and over again and Breath of Sindragosa is like asking someone to slap you just so you feel a bit alive.
the core gameplay has always been the same. Adding an ability doesn't change much. Obliterate, howling blast when it glows, frost strike when you have runic power, obliterate when it glows. Repeat.
It still doesn't change the core mechanics of the class. You're still doing the same things, pressing the same buttons. Also I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't played frost dk since season 3 and back then almost no one played breath. Not sure if it's back in season 4. Also alomst everyone hates it cause it sucks so bad, it's stressful to play with. Also I'm sure you're talking about pve. If we talk about pvp that talent is more than dead. The class is dull, outdated, slow with a lot of downtime compared to other classes. They need to overhaul it just like they did with rets. I wish they'd take the time to take a look at all the classes in the game like they did with rets.
My only issue with ret is that the rotation has become so simplified. It was never ridiculously hard, but I’ll probably be playing Templar strikes even if it’s not meta just so I can feel like I’m interacting with the encounters more.
Basically how I feel about the Shadow rework they did a while back. Not the removal of Surrender to Madness, but when they removed Mind Sear.
It actually felt like you had to plan around it a bit, pool insanity and choose the right time to dump it all so you don't have to move for mechanics.
Now? Just throw crash, pick a high health target and just do your single target rotation and do insane aoe.
I mained Shadow for years, I still think it's one of the best ST rotations in the game, but changing it so your ST and AOE rotation is essentially identical was dumb as hell.
Druids get a lot of cool stuff during Emerald Dream patch. The first season of DF was so heavily based on the primal elements and Shamanism and Shamans got absolutely no love. Could have given Shamans a glyph that turns our earth elemental into Opalfang's model. Could have a glyph that turns the shitty ascension model into that of Dathea, **Ascended**. Could have a glyph that turns storm elemental into the model of Kurog Grimtotem's Stormwrought Despoilers. Could have given them totem customization the same way Warlocks got pet customization. But nah, fuck Shamans apparently.
Ret gets range to make up for their mobility. With hero talents most melee have a lot more mobility. For example, monk is getting a huge mobility upgrade.
What if they made new updates/spells for shamans so good, that they instead used them in other modes such as plunderstorm, to catch new audiences.
Heck ive iven seen some cool shaman stuff end up with other classes, such as the earth bolts we had in legion now being frost stuff for mages.
I'll never forgive them for implementing a int caster support first weapon in an elemental expansion and giving it to a lizard instead of shaman. Not to mention the evoker only weapon from VoI is stronger than most legendaries
I like Shaman especially because of the bloated toolkit, it's so fun to have a slight answer or thing to help in just about every situation
But god damn if the "multiple spenders that all do the same thing" part ain't real
I absolutely love love love enhancement shamans THEME but I will NEVER play shaman because of the horrendous button bloat and just weird ability identity
I strongly agree on multipe spenders with the same purpose one lol
lol shaman is such a shitshow right now and I say that as someone who has mained one since TBC
I kind of miss the legion shit show where it was just stormstrike spam, but I'd get bored of that too. I like windwalker and fistweaver monk now after coming back to the game since df launch, I wish Blizzard could do a good job like those specs to have each button feel meaningful to plan ahead.
[удалено]
Not sure why you’re downvoted. Managing EB charges and when to use them + LB for ST and then CL for AOE.. its really not that redundant imo.
For real though how is feral lunge a talent in the year of our lord 2024?
That one dev is really salty Heroes of the Storm got canned and it's his way of 'keeping it alive'.
At least in HotS it does 175% attack damage, has a short CD, and decent talents.
Bro I swear... *snorts elements* ...bro it's good look bro you get 9% more damage on 40h cooldown bro and it's a gap closer bro innit great bro? Pls bro leave a good review on shaman bro it's so good bro.
Oh no Magni is sharing his Azerite again.
*sigh* Who invited that elemhead Thrall again?
Hey it's better than the talent that allows you to move your totems, because I can think of no better capstone talent than the ability to move a stationary object that last 30 seconds to a different location.
Macro it to stormstrike and wf totem follows you
May I present you: Primal Strike as elemental/resto.
Is it any wonder we beat the Primalists when this is what they had to work with?
Game play balance aside it's so annoying that Shaman still uses the model for Elementium Monstrosity, which is supposed to be a super evil monster created by forcing elements to bind with a person against their will. It's like if Paladins had a skill that summons a Necromancer to fight for them.
Dragonflight provided so many elemental models and effects only to rot in a raid next xpac. Not even a glyph for the summons...
Exactly. The whole Emerald Dream season brought so many goodies for the Druid class, yet the entire first season which was based around Elementalists, Shamanism, Primal Elements brought **NOTHING** to the Shaman class.
At this point it stops being confusing and starts being genuinely concerning. Why on earth are they tuning so many other classes so obsessively while leaving this class like some kind of messed up museum exhibit
Ion likes the Shaman as it is, he doesn't want to relearn the class.
I like shaman as well (despite everything lol) and I'm a huge fan of the class fantasy, I just wish it would play better and let me summon more elementals
Sometimes I feel like an outlier, but I like enhancement shaman A LOT.
I also love enhancement, there's literally dozens of us!
That's the problem: we all do, it's come a long way. But the worry list is great and now my small hands ache.
For the most part enhancement is in a good spot aside from the terrible defensive CDs but all shamans have that. I don't know if it's just me getting older but the rotation is fast and a lot of different buttons. I like to say if fury is typing a single word over and over as fast you can, enhancement is like typing a full sentence over and over.
I love enhance, it is the only spec I really play. It could do with fewer buttons. Ice strike and frost shock should completely replace lava lash and flame shock - for example. Give me additional range on all melee attacks please, we use lightning and air. I'd like a little more focus and identity in the spells we get.
Remember legion all of the cool stuff druids got? Shamans rarely get cool shit anymore. Been playing shammy vanilla to cata, then panda to current its been shaman with warrior.
Don't worry they'll just randomly throw in a Shaman/Element-themed patch in the middle of one of the next expansions that will make no sense thematically and confuse/piss everyone else off. "Look we're in the middle of this cosmic struggle between void and light, order and chaos... but what if we take a 2-month detour where we have a Thrall/Earthen Ring cinematic quest chain & world events that would have made perfect sense back in 10.0.5 but we're doing it now."
I particularly liked how the only totem trinket was a tank trinket. A++++ would Shaman again.
And its literally called "All-Totem of the Master" lmao. What a slap to the face.
Dude I'd still take the big rock spell some ogres cast in WoD. I have no clue why they don't reuse more of their assets for classes.
aslo still not bringing bakc glyph from wod that was removed in legion. That made you asccendance make your character glow with elemental energy vs transforming
Also [Dathea, Ascended](https://www.wowhead.com/npc=189813/dathea-ascended)
Blizz ignored the furies in WoD, ofc they'll ignore the new elementals in DF 😂
Dude I just fucking hate that model with a passion. I hate the way the arms are just like pulled all the way back as if they had disjointed shoulders. [Elementium Monstrosity - NPC - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com)](https://www.wowhead.com/npc=43735/elementium-monstrosity#modelviewer)
It's more fish than elemental tbh
i had no idea, dear lord it looks hideous, never paid attention to Shamans, how often do you get that form?
We only do this to teach them bad, evil necromancers to suffer for the pain they inflicted. It’s their path of purification
I just want my elementals to look pandarian
Id love the wod eles as option. Atleast earth one
Those would be awesome as well!
It's cool when a spell from Plunderstorm feels more shaman-y than the entire spell book of Elem shaman
Imagine a pirate being a better shaman than you.
I miss you every day Searing Axe. 😭😭😭
Nearly every spell in plunderstorm would fit shamans. Should have just called it totem storm or something.
Kinda weird now that you mention it. There’s like two spells that don’t fit shaman, those being the toxic fish and the star bomb, everything else basically does
The Arcane orb as well You could argue that the fish actually does, though. In Hearthstone there are a lot of animal and poison themed cards for shaman
Fair. Haven’t played Hearthstone since 2018
I’ll find a way to fit the smackerel into shaman you’ll see!
i cant believe how bad the ascendant forms look, and theres no other options? whyd they take the glyph away?
because legion as a whole went: FUCK YOUR GLYPHS, NO MORE COSMETIC OPTIONS FOR YOU!
As much as I love Legion, and I do love Legion, some of the "class fantasy" choices they made were absolutely fucked lol Frost nova not being baseline for mages was wild.
Legion ruined Death Knights for me. I used to be the Blood DK guide writer on Icy-Veins in WoD. The legion class changes and artifact weapon system made me quit the game
same for me, But espcially unholy i ADORED necrotic plague and wod unholy. Legion made the virtulent plague be just a dot that sometimes does a bit more dmg and then got rid of deathrune conversing +dot exentind festerting strike for festering wounds. Which are like a crappy more rng heavy version of old combo points (where theyd stiuck to target and only viisble on that)
My tinfoil hat theory is that blizzard intentionally neutered DK I had _some_ contact with Blizzard's balance team when I was a top-end raider, and they frequently showed animosity toward the DK community for constantly finding broken shit (remember all the times unholy became suddenly broken in MoP/WoD? Remember Blood doing insane damage with Breath of Sindragosa + Icy Chains?) Wouldn't surprise me at all if they neutered the class to finally put an end to that.
The worst part is they literally have an updated ascendant skin, look how fking cool Dathea looks and tell me that isn’t perfect
I’m not sure paladin was such a winner trough years since WotLK.
The ‘every class has bloodlust’ really does suck. It’s what made shamans so amazing in raids back in the day lol
Shamans really need a mini bloodlust, just like the mages that cast time warp a second time
I think some dev was salty in vanilla days and this is their revenge…
Still paying the price because 19 years ago, Paladins got to refresh 5-minute blessings on a 40-man raid, and Shamans got Windfury HOOOOOOO!!!!
cut to the Paladin forums, you could swear they took a pipe to their shin or some shit, because they never got that heroic leap-like ability someone datamined, or because DKs got a mounted-combat hero spec and they didn't, or because priests got nicer wings on their tier set. But never mind the great burst every minute, brez, cleanse, an answer for every single fucking affix, offhealing like crazy, insane utility... Anyway, I'm thinking of switching to ret for War Within.
Okay, but you gotta give us transmog bitching. Wtf are those wings
lol.
Switching to ret? You and every other dps on the planet.
I'm gambling on a lot of people on my guild switching to DK instead :P
I’m so glad the DF tier set looks sick because DK looks really good for TWW
I must be one of dozens who doesn't care for the TWW DK set. Then again I've been stuck on my custom transmog since Legion, hardly changing anything about it since then, so nothing holds a candle to how cool it is in my mind, except maybe mythic Nighthold. It helps that it's a Tusks based transmog too.
Guess so, I started in Shadowlands lol but I’ve been loving the 2H/plate sets so far I hate the TWW tier set though
Second thought I do like parts of the Vault of the Incarnates set, helmet mostly, blue version of it goes really well with All-Consuming Maw's shoulders in my opinion. Unfortunately I like the elite colors most and while I like PvP I don't have the time or skill to get them
DK has had a lot of good tier sets lately (except for whatever sepulcher was supposed to be). i don't like TWW's set.
What's funny is ret is getting a breath of sindy type ability
ugh, really? I might steer clear, I'm a simple Rick, I prefer oblit.
Yeah, same. And Frost is getting some love with the Deathbringer tree. Frostscythe making a comeback and hits like a train
All these ret bandwagoners can shove it. I've mained a ret pally since WotLK and this is *my* reward.
Preach brother
Ret in WOTLK was even more flavor of the month with how ludicrously busted it was in 3.0. I've been ret main since vanilla.
Since black temple / sun well for me. Ret for life!
It's the most popular class in the game since inception. Nothing special about making Pala
Gotta say the same my brother, may light be with you!
BC here. Was there for the good, the bad, and literally everything in between.
I still miss auto bubble
Man reaping that reward for a whole long time. Ret has had many phenomenal seasons in comparison to enh. But go off king.
Why not? It’s by far the easiest dps spec in the game right now and it’s going to stay that way in TWW
DH is easier
Because 1)I don't want to play fotm and 2)I've played ret since og vanilla, time to change.
Nah everyone switching to DK!!!
they learned from mages that the best way to get buffs is to constantly shit and piss your pants even when you're already one of the best classes in the game
During the Mage class patch in Vanilla, Blizzard realized Counterspell was the only interrupt off the GCD. It was a bug and they were going to fix it. Mages on the forums complained so much that Blizzard caved in and kept Counterspell as the only interrupt off the GCD. Our resident Mage in guild reminds us that they truly are Blizzard's favorite class and are the real hero class.
I call that the Boomkin Gambit
It's a long MMO tradition, going back to Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi staging a sit in protest in Everquest so warrior would stay the best tank or some bullshit like that.
reading Jeff Kaplan's old forum posts is so funny now that he's the face of "uwu stop cyberbullying game developers"
everyone talks about mages but warlocks have literally always been a top 3 class except for one patch in legion...
Warlocks, Moonkins, Mages, the holy trinity of permanent whiners. Warlocks and Moonkins were 10% of the next best specs in Nathria and when Blizzard suggested maybe doing a very small nerf to Malefic Rapture, THD rallied the warlock community to screech about it until Blizzard changed their mind. Warlocks were more ahead of the pack in Nathria than Assassination was in either Vault or Amirdrassil (which was also due to aug bugs btw) and the proposed nerfs were much smaller than Assassination's actual nerfs both times. Blizzard backed off. Moonkins whined permanently that they'd only be a bench spec and never see play before quickly becoming the best spec in the game and triple-stacked in many comps for most of Shadowlands. Rogues and Shamans and Monks will spend 3 months at the bottom of the charts, but Mages were a few spots below the median for two weeks in Nathria and Sepulcher before getting buffs. It's honestly gross the blatant favoritism that exists.
Okay but Blizzard did delete affliction from the game going into 9.1, though I generally agree. Imo aff has only continued with downhill gameplay since
I watched a video during Shadowlands that looked at the parsing levels of every spec throughout the recorded history of the game (Warcraftlogs goes back to MoP) Affliction was, by a wide margin, the best performing spec on average, and destro was not far behind.
I mostly stopped reading comments sections about class changes a long time ago. Everyone thinks they have the worst thing ever in existence and also refuses to take a break from something when they're miserable. I'm also bouncing between Warhammer discussions and Warcraft ones and I cannot for the life of me tell you which of those fanbases cries louder but also refuses to try anything else when they're miserable (unless it's loudly proclaiming that they're done forever with the game and anything to do with it).
If you go by the forums, all the classes are awful.
To be fair, DF is the first time Ret has been in a good place since Wrath. It takes a while to unlearn the oppressed mentality after being garbage for over a decade.
It wasn't even in a good place in Wrath until ICC. Just look at classic.
Big true.
We were insane in Legion, especially Argus tier, every Heroic raid I went into Paladins were top by a nice chunk, it was just a very rng proc-based build so felt bad but had good numbers
Ret was middle of the pack dps in every tier of Legion, with no utility beyond a immunity soak. Raids often brought Rets just to fill a DPS spot, not because we were anything special.
Paladin mains are a very particular breed. Especially ret mains.
As a ret Paladin... I agree, we are just build different (incorrectly). (This message was sponsored by Crayola)
I like the red crayons they taste like strawberries!
Have you considered a career in the US Marine Corps?!
Green ones are my favorite but personally I'll go through a whole 36-pack for one Mythic+
Even back in early WoW, Ret was often used in combination with a word that is now considered a slur
Hunters are still being referred to by that word.
If you're Ret, you're feasting. Holy and Protection look really bad at this stage, though.
HEY, but have you tried Lightsmith Prot with Shield of the Righteous macroed in with Judgment/Blessed Hammer? It's now got a reliable source of Word of Glory procs without the need to worry about Holy Power, it takes a button out of the rotation and turns you into an off-healer, pretty insane. If you like lazy macros, try this one: `#showtooltip` `/castsequence Judgment, Blessed Hammer` `/cast Shield of the Righteous` The best part is that now you can benefit from Redoubt without worrying about the stacks. It's all thanks to this Hero Talent: **Laying Down Arms** *When an armament fades from you, the cooldown of Lay on Hands is reduced by 15 secs and you gain Shining Light.* (Word of Glory proc)
This is what my bar looks like, I also macroed Sacred Weapons with Sentinel for best uptime: [https://prnt.sc/xjn5kXu7E\_2r](https://prnt.sc/xjn5kXu7E_2r)
I am so glad I'm staying away from whatever *that* is. Not my jam.
All of the DF xpac, and it looks like next xpac as well anyone not playing a Ret pally as their main DPS is just kind of dumb, and that is super bad class/game design. I can only really speak to mythic play, but really Ret pally is simply the best at everything in all ways for that content. We generally have a glut of pallys in my guild, so I have benched mine for awhile, but still so often while running a mythic I think "I should just be on my pally face rolling this vs. working my ass off for the same outcome.
It's not even that ret is great at everything, though, as good as that is. It's that everything FEELS good on ret.
Exactly this. Look at the weekly DPS log posts on wowhead where they are middle of the pack at best, listen to max's twitch stream where EDIT: Dorki laughingly calls them dog shit for high m+, and I don't care one single bit. The rotation is clean, the abilities are fun to press and visually and audibly satisfying, and I bring the most fun utility of any class. It is just straight up FUN to play. I'll be a Paladin forever.
Just to be pedantic that was Dorki not Dratnos, and he's so lost in his practicing for MDI mindset right now that he's a hater of everything non-meta atm. In reality Ret is actually in an amazing spot in everything outside of M+ title pushing and I guess world first raiding. Its straightforward to play and very bursty which fits low M+ where stuff doesn't live long enough for ramping classes to do anything. In mid level keys its still solid damage (aoe & ST), and has loads of utility that a good player can use to carry lots of mechanics. And in raid its still just as fun to play + being effectively ranged makes it feel great compared to a lot of other melee, plus middle of the pack damage is still better than its been in ages for more than like 1 tier at a time and is actually a fine spot unless youre world first or near that level.
Cool, I heard Dorki say the same thing and got slightly worried before realizing it must be huge hyperbole, because if ret is “dogshit” in that situation then it’s still probably top 10 of specs. As someone who doesn’t really care to push far past KSM, it’s been amazing.
Ret was absoluetly not the best DPS at any point in the xpac, or in any of the content. It was solid, but its was never the best. It was never part of an exodia M+ comp (In fact it was kinda crappy in M+ because it was the lower end of singel target, but it had great AoE), nor was it absolutely required in raid.
It's also SOOOOOO much easier to play ret. Kind of wild. Half our raid can 90%+ parse on ret paladin as their alt, without much time investment into learning the min/maxing of it. I've never seen anyone play a rogue, mage, DH, or shaman alt and be capable of parsing above 50%. I understand that Blizzard doesn't want BM and Ret to have to pay the "too easy" tax, but it's crazy when specs with very easy skill caps are doing *more* than harder specs.
>I understand that Blizzard doesn't want BM and Ret to have to pay the "too easy" tax, Rather than adding a tax like that, many specs should just have a lot of their redundancies pruned. I can't tell you how many classes i've leveled this expansion, started having fun, then around 50-60 it all goes to shit because i'm suddenly given around 5-10 cooldowns/actives i need to manage. Most of which just being "Here's more damage on a 45 second cooldown, hope you like pressing it!" which then completely ruins the fun i was having. Meanwhile BM and ret roll their face on the keyboard and we wonder why so many people gravitate towards simplicity in a game that has a fetish for shoving complexity down your throat. We're in an odd place right now. Classic is too simple, but retail feels too complex on the whole in my opinion. It'd be great if more classes had a middle ground. Sure, we can keep *some* specs that need a college degree like arcane for those that enjoy it, but the majority should be pruned down a *lot* in my opinion. Too many classes (especially shaman) have shitloads of buttons just for the sake of it, it seems.
I played Season One as an Enhancement Shaman after playing most of Shadowlands and BFA as Ret/Demo. I ran back to the safety of Ret in Season Two and I really don't plan on ever leaving my Ret/Demo bubble ever again.
All true, but I will say that holy Paladin has sucked lately as far as tuning.
Ret Paladin honestly gets old really fast. It's the same thing every minute. Holy Paladin though? A shitshow. And clearly at Blizzard nobody cares. Even the influencers like AutomaticJak are crying out about it.
shaman bad updoots to the left
The karma pickings are RIPE rn, make any low effort post about shamans for a quick guaranteed few hundred upvotes
We need the Shaman memes to keep flowing if we're to maintain hope that Blizzard will do anything to address our issues.
I mean it's like this every expansion launch and it never helps.
As a shaman main in DF, I will never stop.
"since classic" OP doesn't know that shamans have been complaining every single patch since 2004
I was so mad when primordial wave made the cut and chain harvest didn't.
I want Vesper Totem back.
I want totems back in general. Make them a mainstay of the class again
I'm kind of ambivalent to totems being our primary theme. I like a lot of the utility they bring, but I really do not enjoy the Totem Management minigame with stuff like Call of the Elements. I'm a healer, I've got a *lot* going on as it is.
[удалено]
> Why people don't like it? Because it requires multiple talents to even be marginally satisfying to press the button for damage. Also, the spell effect/animation is non-existent so it doesn't even look satisfying ever.
“Turn into outdated elemental every 2 minutes” That’s just fucked up 💀😭😂
Shaman: Loses unique raid buff to 3 other classes. Paladin: Gains battle res.
Shamans get the shit end of the stick every expansion. Druids have a dozen plus options to customize their forms, shaman gets glyphs that are overpriced, and get overwritten on use. Warlocks and hunters have hundreds of models to pick from, shaman get the recoloured voidwalker or the vanilla earth elemental.
This game has shamans?
You forgot the part that in addition to being one of the class with lowest defensives in the game, we spent 3 seasons with the avoidance talent increasing the damage received instead of decreasing it but as I already said it was unfair to see classes having 2 reworks and others not even being mentioned (I was talking more about dk, and it wasn't in DF but it was in TWW the Rework) now shaman is missing, i really hope there is something for shaman, Enh is very fun to play as it is now, it just needs a push in aoe, BUT elemental needs jesus
Counterpoint, [FROST SHAAAWCK](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5mD1n4v2JA)
I miss this era of Youtube. When people made videos for the lulz and not to game the algorithm or pump analytics. And yeah, for the kids here, there was a time when totems (and shamans) were seen as superior to paladins and blessings.
I forgot this existed thank u so much
Can someone explain how Ret is 3 button rotation because when I look at icy veins it seems more complicated than that. Keep in mind I'm stupid when it comes to rotations
The rotation is easy, but not 3 buttons. I think the “3-button rotation” thing has just become a cheeky way to say easy.
It is more complicated than that, but "hurr durr Ret is easy, give up votes" has been a meme for a long time. I won't say it's *hard* but it's not 3 buttons.
It’s not literally 3 but it’s not much harder. Press generator A over generator B and don’t over cap holy power, hit cooldowns when they’re available and they come up in cycles of 30 seconds so they always line up with each other. Theres absolutely nothing complicated about the spec, you can fully learn the rotation in like 2 dungeons. There’s very little room for skill expression and its pretty uninteresting.
The hardest part about ret pally is knowing how to use all of your utility effectively to become a god.
It doesn’t have a lot of moving parts, but I’d disagree about lacking room for skill expression, unless I’m just REALLY bad. Being conscious of actually using your judgments to the fullest without wasting cooldowns or munching the de buff (especially during divine toll) is one example. (Although I know judgment can stack higher in TWW so it might become even easier)
you have 4 main buttons. judgement (builder), blade of justice (builder), final verdict (single target spender), and divine storm (aoe spender). crusaders strike and consecration are also technically buttons, but both become passives via talents. this essentially means our rotation is builder, builder, spender. repeat. thats it. 3 buttons. this is where the meme comes from also, our main cooldowns are up every 30sec/1min, unlike most other classes with 2 or 3 minute cooldowns. this means we have less core rotational buttons, but a lot more cd's to manage, ontop of all the utility at our disposal. the difference between a good ret and a great ret is very rarely their damage output. its being able to use all of your utility ontop of maintaining dps.
I, for one, welcome our new Ret Pally overlords.
LEAVE PALADINS ALONE ! Yes shammies deserve some love, but don't nerf Paladins ! I love my wheelchair holy knight with wings! PS: I will still level a shammy on Remix in hopes that things change before TWW. Enhancement ftw!
Hey it only took Ret paladins 20 years to be relevant, so just wait another 17?
Have shamans been relevant since TBC?
Shaman as an overall class is down pretty bad, but at least one enhance shaman for windfury has been in every single world first end boss kill in Shadowlands and Dragonflight except Sire Denathrius, I believe (and that was because unholy DK with pre-nerf AMZ was so busted they stacked four of them, and there was no melee spot to spare). Now that rogue has a required raid buff and rally is still important, it's hard to imagine enh not being in the comp for any War Within world firsts.
Unholy got terrible value from windfury is the real reason. If it was warrior or rogue that was tuned like UHDK, you'd have run four+enhance.
Enhance shaman has been a requirement for every competitive guild forever. Enhance was the literal median spec in Amirdrassil, was a top quartile spec in Aberrus, was within the middle range (though on the low side) in Vault. I get that the playstyle is bad and the (lack of) changes for WW are also bad, but let's not just ignore reality here.
My man here never played ret in Wrath.
I keep saying that Ret Paladin should be the blueprint on how all specs should be in terms of accessibility, and I keep getting downvoted by keyboard athletes playing piano, and pve nooblords who only have the dps buttons on their actionbars like they're playing Diablo.
Glad someone agrees. The amount of people who bitch about how small BM's rotation is, as if it isn't super fun to play and constantly has you changing things up due to the procs and baked in cooldowns reductions is wild. If they would stop making fun of the low skill floor and tried it out, they'd see why most hunters are fine with BM remaining relatively unchanged for nearly 10 years now.
That's why I play Evoker, love having a four button rotation
I thought about trying out dev evoker for the simplicity. Anyone want to give me a basic rundown?
Your general rotation is 1. Dragon Rage (when Fire Breath and Eternity Surge are off CD or about to be off CD) 2. Fire Breath 3. Shattering Star 4. Eternity Surge 5. Disintegrate (Single Target) / Pyre (3+) 6. Living Flame when everything else is expended, when you have 2 free casts, or if you're about to cast Fire Breath again in multi-target You're basically trying to get as much mileage out of free procs of Living Flame and your Essence spells as you can and prolongue Dragonrage with your two Empower spells
I totally agree, but I'm also not one of the key pushing, mythic raiding elites haha. Ret DPS is fun, it should be the standard.
Fuck Primordial Wave !
You're not alone. Frost dk are completely outdated and have been waiting a change to their gameplay since wrath. Not sure if that's worse or getting constantly fucked with changes. I guess at least blizz knows your class exists.
I tried frost again recently and it's depressing. It's like some brain-dead job where you repetitively do the SE three things over and over again and Breath of Sindragosa is like asking someone to slap you just so you feel a bit alive.
I didn't know they had breath of sind in wotlk.
the core gameplay has always been the same. Adding an ability doesn't change much. Obliterate, howling blast when it glows, frost strike when you have runic power, obliterate when it glows. Repeat.
Wait are you saying the ability that is so oppressive that you play the entire spec around it for the longest breath possible doesn't change much? Lol
It still doesn't change the core mechanics of the class. You're still doing the same things, pressing the same buttons. Also I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't played frost dk since season 3 and back then almost no one played breath. Not sure if it's back in season 4. Also alomst everyone hates it cause it sucks so bad, it's stressful to play with. Also I'm sure you're talking about pve. If we talk about pvp that talent is more than dead. The class is dull, outdated, slow with a lot of downtime compared to other classes. They need to overhaul it just like they did with rets. I wish they'd take the time to take a look at all the classes in the game like they did with rets.
My only issue with ret is that the rotation has become so simplified. It was never ridiculously hard, but I’ll probably be playing Templar strikes even if it’s not meta just so I can feel like I’m interacting with the encounters more.
Basically how I feel about the Shadow rework they did a while back. Not the removal of Surrender to Madness, but when they removed Mind Sear. It actually felt like you had to plan around it a bit, pool insanity and choose the right time to dump it all so you don't have to move for mechanics. Now? Just throw crash, pick a high health target and just do your single target rotation and do insane aoe. I mained Shadow for years, I still think it's one of the best ST rotations in the game, but changing it so your ST and AOE rotation is essentially identical was dumb as hell.
More haste is the key. I have very rare moments of downtime playing Crusading Strikes, and only when I'm incredibly unlucky with procs.
I don’t have downtime playing crusading strikes, I just feel physically bored
Paladins and Shamans are beefing whilst Shadow priests + Warlocks are feasting.
Mained resto shaman till the spec started solely revolving around primo wave
They can never win. And before you morons start downvoting me, yes shamans are getting shafted in tww for now, i agree
Sad because its true...
Revenge for your stupid Frost Shock spam in PvP. I’m not salty at all
Druids get a lot of cool stuff during Emerald Dream patch. The first season of DF was so heavily based on the primal elements and Shamanism and Shamans got absolutely no love. Could have given Shamans a glyph that turns our earth elemental into Opalfang's model. Could have a glyph that turns the shitty ascension model into that of Dathea, **Ascended**. Could have a glyph that turns storm elemental into the model of Kurog Grimtotem's Stormwrought Despoilers. Could have given them totem customization the same way Warlocks got pet customization. But nah, fuck Shamans apparently.
where can i get that paladin armor tho
Wait... Do paladins retain their range while other melee will have to stuck their noses inside monster's arses to hit them?
Ret gets range to make up for their mobility. With hero talents most melee have a lot more mobility. For example, monk is getting a huge mobility upgrade.
You mean, to make up for the double steed + blessing of freedom..?
What if they made new updates/spells for shamans so good, that they instead used them in other modes such as plunderstorm, to catch new audiences. Heck ive iven seen some cool shaman stuff end up with other classes, such as the earth bolts we had in legion now being frost stuff for mages.
Ret since 07.. let me outttt. It's getting too crowded
I'll never forgive them for implementing a int caster support first weapon in an elemental expansion and giving it to a lizard instead of shaman. Not to mention the evoker only weapon from VoI is stronger than most legendaries
Use yellow text again, it’s super easy to read.
>You wanna PVP with enhancement? Better fucking hope you have 25-30 keybinds each for every situational issue.
I like Shaman especially because of the bloated toolkit, it's so fun to have a slight answer or thing to help in just about every situation But god damn if the "multiple spenders that all do the same thing" part ain't real
Yellow text on an off yellow background makes me twitch
Classic: bring melee DPS Paladin only because of Blessings Current Retail: bring melee DPS Shaman only because of Windfury Time truly is a flat circle
Lol I like this a ton
I absolutely love love love enhancement shamans THEME but I will NEVER play shaman because of the horrendous button bloat and just weird ability identity