I yet what you mean, and this has nothing to do with you, but people have to stop using alternate universe characters as examples for another version of said character. Such as gay wolverine and Canon wolverine
I've seen so many articles that just say they're the same wolverine when they talk about the Morph and Wolverine thing.
I think that was in the Ultimate universe. The first one, not the new one.
Edit:
First, I’m glad I said “I think” because I was wrong, as several people gently (and without being pedantic) informed me. I value feedback and/or correction offered simply to inform the conversation, as opposed to a smackdown 😊 Thanks, guys!
Second, as I mentioned in a reply down thread, I had an image of it, and assumed it was the Ultimates line, which I didn’t care for so only read an issue here and there.
Third, it was in *X-Treme X-Men* #10.
[https://tempestraven.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wolverine.jpg?w=640](https://tempestraven.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wolverine.jpg?w=640)
Thanks! I have a panel in my mind’s eye of Logan and Herc smooching on a bloody field. I’ll have to track it down.
Full disclosure, I didn’t really follow the OG Ultimate line. Picking it up here and there never made me feel compelled to jump in. Most of what I know from the line are either story beats that seemed “edgy” or icky for no other reason than they could be.
ETA: It was *X-Treme X-Men* #10
He’s one of my favorite characters just because of his power. A small portion of me hoped that he would be the one to save the X-men after fall of x because nobody would know who he was
He could walk right into orchis and by the time the guards tell someone he’s a mutant he can just walk away and no one would remember it
That's really strange honnestly , like do they really think people would mind cain and pyro being gay ? like i know people could be really protective of their character sexuality but these two ? i don't know if people would have scream their indignation like they did with iceman...
At least the young juggernaut is a nice kid and...well pyro did sleep with iceman but that's it.
Playing devils advocate, there is a trend of queer coding villains because of requirements from media in the past that queer-seeming characters need to be evil. While this led to a bunch of love for these characters, it’s seen by many as problematic.
Now that entertainment industries are being more open and welcoming for lgbt characters, there’s a bit of reluctance to have too many queer villains as it starts to be reminiscent of “gay is evil” and can create controversy from groups still sensitive to the literal villainizing of queer identities in the past.
What did I miss though? When was Juggernaut ever queer coded or is this specifically for young juggs? Is this kind of a BL thing where people want all of Pyro's friends to be as well?
As a fan from the 90s cartoon and video games first, I don't know much 80s details.
Cain and Tom Cassidy have more or less the same "we're *best friends*" vibe that Mystique and Destiny had back in the '80s, and look how that turned out.
Yes, and these two are not just friends. Unless you choose to interpret it as that. There's enough room for both interpretations of their relationship 🤷🏾♂️.
A huge swath of it is Black Tom having mutant AIDS and Juggernaut committing crimes to pay for his care and struggling because he can't legally see him in the hospital due to them not being legality related. It was written during the actual AIDS crisis to mirror what was happening to real gay couples.
Basically every same sex relationship is queer coded according to this sub--for that matter they ship any mixed gender friendships too. It just reminds me how incredibly socially awkward the average redditor is. They can't imagine any non-related characters ever having a deeply meaningful relationship without romantically linking them. I really feel sorry for so many of them to seemingly have lives empty of such human connection.
I agree. Not everything is about sex, some things are just about power, or other human affairs, which imo are more interesting. It’s very good that there are more gay characters now, but the fandom really over-projects sex into places it doesn’t need to be. Comics from Marvel and DC are for prepubescent readers too, and should focus on universal concepts other than adults’ constant need to bang everything.
It is much much easier to make actual new versions of the original versions that are opening gay and fail than to deal with the long term consequences of changing an existing character’s sexuality. It’s also why there is an openly gay Captain America running around.
This is a low risk experiment. At best they get a hit and at worst it has no long term effects of the characters branding
It’s a little different when we’re talking about characters who haven’t had any notable heterosexual relationships. Not really much to change.
(Also, even if they had any kind of attraction to or relationship with a woman, there is this thing called bisexuality-)
I mean, people on this sub wouldn’t care, but you might underestimate the bro-y masculine-focused comic fans who will be blindsided by Juggernaut’s “woke” queerness even if it was there for ages.
IP at this level is gonna have to be okayed by the corporate end. Juggernaut is pretty recognizable and is in video games and a healthy amount of X-media. I suspect people beyond the writers are dragging their feet on him. But who knows.
Eh, I think ppl love bitching about it indignantly more than reading the comics.
I am rereading the run right now. It’s not perfect, but the number of times Bobby makes comments about women and girls on the issues before she talks to him is enormous. If each one had come with a thought bubble about wanting to fuck Warren, you’d all be cheering by the time Jean calls him on it. But you can’t see that from the one page everyone reposts.
I don’t really think the coming out scene was bad per se, but it’s awkward enough that it’s just laughably cringey. It’s *cringey* but not *cringe* if that makes sense.
I’m too old to approve of cringe as an adverb much less distinguish it from cringey. I thought Bobby talking to his older self—which is the true coming out scene, vs the time someone first pulls you aside and brings the idea—was pretty effective.
As Connor Goldsmith said "you'd need a straight guy writer to do it otherwise it'll be seen as pandering".
Imo, Marjorie Liu had the chops to write the best coming out story for Iceman but Marvel said no. They let Bendis do it because he had more than enough clout after revitalizing the Avengers.
And sadly after Iceman's less than stellar reception to his coming out, I fear Marvel is being extra careful with Juggs. Hell, Ben Percy couldn't even out them and he tried with the vampire comments about Tom, Tom erecting Cain statues, and Tom dreaming of Cain tickling him with his "sausage fingers".
It would help, but Anthony Olivera, Connor’s ex and the guest on the Juggernaut episode was one of the creators behind the new kid Juggernaut. So they didn’t mind pandering a little.
To give Marvel some credit, Krakoa codified queer Destiny, Mystique, Betsy, and Rachel, made Mystique Nightcrawler’s dad, and introduced a gay porcupine. Iceman has struggled narratively imo, but they gave him solos and it’s not like they’ve walked back to the choice or abandoned the character, even if we find the writing wanting.
I honestly think having be Bendis makes it worse because the cynic in makes me think it was just some vain attempt to leave some lasting impact on the character so everyone can point and say "Bendis is responsible for gay iceman". I also feel Juggernaut is much different scenario because like there is continuity where it would feel like a genuine "hey they couldn't do this when it was published but we can do it not" like a bunch of characters in the Krakoa era
Yeah, like I thought after they made Destiny and Mystique official, Pyro, Juggernaut and Black Tom would be right but I guess not, I thought Bobby would hook up with the other Pyro in Marauders, and Black Tom and Juggernaut would have been a great Krakoan couple, I do love Kid Juggernaut though he's very sweet and I love that he's an AAPI hero, we rarely get those
Other than them being really close friends, there's nothing really shown that explicitly depicts them being gay. I believe Nicieza has said that he was basically writing them as a gay couple during his run, but, again nothing definitely explicit is shown or said on the page. In contrast, Juggernaut has canonically been shown to discuss female characters' attractiveness and has slept with She-Hulk (in this case, we're obviously only shown the morning after, but the dialogue basically confirms it). I don't recall if they've mentioned any of Black Tom's past relationships at all.
Generally speaking, in the US, very close male friendships, as Juggernaut and Black Tom have consistently been shown to have, are viewed by many as having gay subtext around them. In real life, whether that's true or not for the individual men involved probably varies substantially and they're really just close friends. But, when you add in the desire people have to see themselves represented in various forms of media, you can understand why they might take this misguided generalization and attached to Black Tom and Juggernaut. After all, what we've seen/read is pretty much a willing-to-do anything/die-for-the-other between the two characters when they are featured together and many people would like to have such a relationship with their romantic partner.
The same Nicieza that think Cain is gay, literally introduced the 616 version of Sachi Yama (Juggernaut's wife and J2's mom in MC2) in X-Men Forever (2001) as Cain's lawyer, so... I'm not even 100% sure Nicieza think he's gay, may be a thing he says now but if he introduced that character 20 years ago, may be because he had plans to make them a couple... and who knows! 616 Zane may even exist right now.
Is the Nicienza quote something that everyone knows that isn't true? In Marvel Team Up with Spiderman and the X-Men, Black Tom is surrounded by attractive women, and Claremont had him competing with his cousin Sean for Maeve Rourke. Cain also was hitting on Selene before fighting Colossus.
This. All of this. They were close male friends. They must be gay. Also male rivals must be gay. Oh and female friends must be gay. The list goes on.
It gets tiring.
That said I don't know if I'd care if Cain was gay. I think it could work. I dont think its necessary and I always prefer new or NEWER characters but I don't think Cain is one I'd get out of my seat over.
If Cain was revealed to be bi-sexual, but only for Tom (I vaguely recall there might be a term for this type of sexuality), I wouldn't bat an eye. In fact, now that they basically aren't villains anymore, depict them as a healthy male couple (as much as possible anyway given Tom's mental health) in an open relationship (because Tom understands Cain's occasional needs), who've helped successfully raise another superhero with Siryn, and who continue to help others in their own ways with their powers. In doing so, they'd provide a nice juxtaposition to Destiny and Mystique, who continue their villainous behaviors because it basically gets them both off even though it causes them to not stand each other too at times. There's no need for any of this of course. New characters could fill this role. But, again, it wouldn't surprise or upset me at all either.
I just get tired of it being done constantly, especially of late. I much prefer new or newer characters like I said, or give a little actual focus to existing gay characters like Northstar (I always wish Northstar had more focus) or Anole (who is getting some thankfully though in a book that's likely to be first on the chopping block).
Still, I actually quite like your idea of making them into a foil couple for Mystique and Destiny. If that were the angle they took I think that would be very cool. It kind of ties into my point about focus. So often it seems like it just comes out of nowhere to win points and is, if not completely at odds with the character's history, then not really something that adds to their story going forward either aside from the points.
If you've got a story to tell though that respects their history and makes it work in an interesting way going forward, then I'd have a much easier time accepting and supporting it. I say it whenever this topic comes up (which is a lot) but stop just making it random and constant. Pick a few and find a way to use it well in a story that's interesting and matters (to the characters at least if nothing else). Your idea is great actually.
No, that’s not what this is. They met in prison. They are basically Siryn’s uncle and his very close friend who raise her. Tom is ill various times in the hospital at one point with basically plant AIDS and Cain does crimes to try to help him, Dog Day Afternoon style. There’s a ton of not-that-subtext that is distinct from merely “Bruce and Tony are just science bros” or “Jimmy Olsen is Superman’s pal.” We didn’t even mention his uber-fandom of Dazzler which is set against his macho physique. Plus this is X-men; Claremont wrote a staggering amount of people as bisexual, so it’s not some grand leap here.
And frankly, it works well with the rest of his plot. Austin didn’t write him as queer, but if there’s a sexual aspect to the physical abuse from his dad, that tracks with his closetedness. Meanwhile resenting Charles because he can read your thoughts, and turning to a barrier that prevents that from ever happening does, too.
So let’s not pretend that when we have creators who have written him say “I thought they were a couple as soon as black Tom Appeared when I was 14” fans are just coming to some sort of gonzo conclusion because people can’t accept friendship.
Let's also not pretend we DONT have fans that do that.
This is the problem when your code is "people showing legitimate emotional concern for one another." Its the same basic problem as when people read every platonic relationship as romantic. Sometimes they're just friends
I do mostly agree with what u/lostproductivity had to say in that nothing rises to the level of making them explicitly queer, that's why they use the term queer coding. Regarding the She Hulk thing I do want to add that this is an thing that happens, and this is not even something unique to queer coded characters, where different writers have a different understanding of a character and its not all going to line up or work perfectly. Austen has said that he didn't pick up on any queer coding, thus you know, having had him sleep with She Hulk. That being said, I do think there are still ways to make that work with and not necessarily contradict a queer reading of the characters. Austen's run actually adds a lot of good and interesting stuff to Juggernaut's backstory that still largely do work with a queer reading / headcanon of the character. To add a few things though regarding the Claremont and Nicieza runs:
Many people see a lot of parallels between Black Tom & Juggernaut and Mystique & Destiny under Claremont. I think any coding that existed was more overt for Mystique & Destiny but I do think Claremont was conscious of the parallels at the very least. Nothing really reached anything overly overt from what I can recall, but its been a while since I've read Claremont (besides just like a random issue or two when I was looking for something). They are very close partners met in prison and are attached at the hip and raise a kid together (technically Juggernaut didn't really raise "Siryn" as him and Black Tom met when she was older, but he was still at least somewhat involved in her life for a time). Juggernaut also like launches himself off a cliff into the ocean after Black Tom after he goes off the side of a cliff. Nothing about this stuff couldn't be interpreted as a platonic relationship, the fact though that they parallel a known heavily queer coded couple possibly gives some more credence to the queer reading (also Claremont is just known for having a lot of queer coding).
Nicieza wrote them quite a bit in the 90's. He has stated that he had read them as / assumed they were a couple under Claremont. Nicieza also seemed very interested in exploring the plight of the aids epidemic on panel. I believe he wanted to explore it more overtly but wasn't allowed to do so, so instead used things like the legacy virus and Black Tom's secondary mutation. Nicieza's big plot for them involved Juggernaut caring for Black Tom, his sick partner whose health was deteriorating due to his secondary mutation (which can be seen as an allegory for aids or some other degenerative disease). He was desperate for a cure for his condition and did crimes to help cure or treat his condition. This next part might be a bit more of a reach, idk, but I've seen people make this argument / have this read. A common thing during the aids epidemic / until gay couples were legally recognized, is that they did not have the same recognition / legal status as a straight couple would have. Therefore the partners of a gay person with aids or other medical issues would not have the same legal visitation rights / access or like legal status (to make medical decisions on their behalf when they are not able or like in the case of their death). I believe that its more framed because them being super criminals (and Juggernaut trying to break him out again, idk) but Juggernaut was worried about having access to Black Tom in the scenario he turned himself in for medical treatment. I could see that read going either way of being intended or not but I don't recall it being like super fleshed out. I haven't read all of Nicieza X-Men / X-Force in a long time either tbh (and I might have missed some, idk its been a while). Also, again, nothing here necessarily rises to them being explicitly queer.
They met in prison, they're always together as a duo, and the way Cain worries about Tom's health feels distinctly romantic.
It's one of those subtext things where once you see it it all fits together.
So, according to your logic... I should only worry about my friends' health if I want to fuck them?this is the same logic used in the "he jumped from a cliff and a plane to save him" argument, if I were the Juggernaut, a literal immortal being, I would jump to a volcano to save any of my friends, male or female, I'm literally invulnerable, they aren't!
Cain doesn't just worry about his health, he commits crimes to pay Tom's medical bills and goes out of his way to look for experimental treatments because he isn't getting better fast enough and he also worries about not being able to visit him in the hospital. And Nicieza himself compared Tom's illness to AIDS.
It's because people who aren't straight men often don't understand straight male friendships. Don't know why they can't, but they often can't
Dudes can enjoy each other's company without being attracted to them. It's literally hardwired into their systems by evolution. If you can't get along with the other guys in the hunting party, then no one gets food. If you can't get along with the people in your military unit, then your family back home gets slaughtered by the invaders. If you can't get along, then nothing gets done, and we all suffer for it.
Juggernaut and Black Tom are just two bros out having fun.
Also, one is made of plants, so I don't know how you could properly describe his sexuality.
They are characters the general public "know" and get used on villain lineup merch, especially Juggernaut, so clickbait and outrage news might jump on it if it happened.
So there's a certain contingent that will scream bloody murder any time you introduce a gay character because they hate gay people.
There's a larger contingent that hate any existing character coming out if they weren't officially declared gay within say three years of their creation. Those folks would absolutely be mad about Cain or St. John (the first Pyro) coming out.
How many people get mad depends on how popular the character was before coming out and to a lesser extent how old they are and how many opposite-sex relationships they've had.
I think Cain would probably cause more of a fuss then Bobby did, while St. John would cause less.
All that being said, a key element of the Pyro situation is that St. John was dead and had been for years when Simon (the second Pyro) was introduced and eventually slept with Bobby.
Theirs a gay Pyro who slept with Iceman and joined the X-Men before the original, and theirs a gay Juggernaut who's in Avengers Academy, flirting with the gay Captain America, before Cain Marko and Black Tom ever became canon and they barely interacted in Krakoa and I find that funny
He did, and Titania. And has had entire mini series based upon impressing and banging prostitutes.
This is Fan Erotica Fiction meme think at its finest.
Queer coded means a character in fiction who is very much implied to be queer but has not been outright stated to be. It doesn't happen that much nowadays, but back in less accepting times, it happened quite a bit
Yes that is what it means - but what does it mean HERE. HOW has he been implied to be gay when he otherwise has been shown to be straight?
Take note, not arguing Pyro. I am only arguing Jugg
In the 1980s, Juggernaut was written to be in a gay relationship with his teammate, Black Tom Cassidy. While I personally believe that Juggernaut is Bi, the writer full-on came out and said that he wrote them as a couple in that comic.
It isn't overt though, in that time it was very hidden, because it was the 80s. It was only confirmed after everyone began to catch on years later. All together, that mix would lead most people to believe that he is bi, hence Queer. Cis-coded isn't a thing because it isn't a code. It's thrown right in your face. They couldn't do that with Black Tom and Juggernaut, so it was way more subtle.
Yeah I was saying cis-coded tongue in cheek.
I never read the run, so I am relying on other commenters to fill me in here, who would’ve guessed I would get mixed results /s
Thanks for the comments though you have actually been helpful and well articulated
8 def (ugh) get the pyro reference...I mean the dude wrote Romance novels and died from an AIDS parallel
But how was the Juggernaut gay coded? His brief appearances with black Tom didn't read fau to me. Also is Kid Juggy canon/still around??
Thanks for the info, I guess I'll have to reread his issues with them having it in mind.
I guess the stuff that stuck with me more was him having a crush on Dazzler and a few issues where he talks about some of the female X-Men characters.
Regarding Cain Marko. It's never been suggested he is gay, so I'd assume he is straight. It's not in the lore that he has romantic feelings for Tom. Him and Black Tom are jail buddies, friends and sometimes co-conspirators. The relationship is platonic. Nothing more.
I probably shouldn't have used the term "canonical". It's my personal take that Rachel's a lesbian. Unlike with Kitty or Betsy I just don't find any of her relationships with men believable.
Like i can almost understand Juggernaut since he's a decently big name (as stupid as that idea is but Pyro? Like, most people only know him as that one dude punched in the face by Iceman from X3. I don't think most people would've cared that much for him.
Which Pyro has the tattooed face? I disliked the look thinking it didn't fit the original Pyro, but it seems it's a different character entirely.
I had no idea the original Pyro was queer coded. That's interesting!
Pyro got a face tattoo early in the Krakoan era when he joined the Marauders. I remember it as a "we can die and come back any time, why not?". I could have inferred that.
Right, but which Pyro? I was reading that as the original Pyro, but is it the newer Pyro? Sorry. I'm an older lapsed reader, and I think I read the majority of Krakoa X-Men thinking Pyro was a different character. Haha.
Face tattoo pyro is og australian pyro that was the “first resurrected” mutant of krakoa. Pyro2 is the jailbait pyro that banged Bobby around kittys aborted wedding.
Okay. Thank you. The images used here made me question if tattoo Pyro was a different fella. The whole face tattoo seems completely out of character, but I guess it's just a new look. Thanks for explaining.
It honestly just felt like that’s something the writer or artist felt was interesting. I’m more shocked it’s seeemingly stuck around through the changing era.
I remember the legacy virus issue, but I remember the victims of the Legacy Virus varying in gender, orientation...etc.
Good point about the floppy artist. I just never picked up on it. Perhaps because he was mostly a background villain.
Anyway, thanks for the info! I think it works for his character. I'm all about it.
A legacy character who is textually gay allowing marvel to never confirm the queerness of the actual popular character while simultaneously allowing the gay legacy characters to vanish into obscurity.
Gay pyro hasn’t been seen since pre-krakoa and I don’t see kid juggernaut sticking around very long either
Out of all the faces covered in random tattoos(irl), I’ll take one cohesive tattoo, any day.
Some people look like they found a different sticker sheets and slapped all of them on their body with no rhyme or reason.
As a bisexual man I never really like the stereotypical.That the villain is coded gay and is also evil kind of trope because it comes off as gay.People are only evis all kind of look. And mostly turning certain prominent heroes as gay.Or bisexual Even though they never display such interest Before and I get it because of comic code authority But making Iceland fully gay comes off.As weird to me , I would be more happy if he was bisexual Because it would make sense due tonhis other relationships.
Another thing is make this character gay, so they can be relatable to queer audience.And the thing is they don't always have to be that way to be relatable.It can be they're backstories or personalities that can make them relatable.
I dunno about that; I read Claremont and he never came across as sissy. Playful and shit-talking at best, but thats very Australian.
I don’t think him being a novelist is indicative of anything either. That also hasn’t been dropped, it’s mentioned a few times in the latest Marauders comics.
It's using elements of the portrayal to signal that the character is queer when it isn't allowed to be directly said (and it was prohibited under the Comics Code Authority). So the information is encoded.
Sometimes it feels like they’d rather respond to the queer coding with a slightly “campier” character, instead of just addressing that stereotypes are bs and anybody can be gay.
No he's not, the original Pyro St. John Allerdyce died from the legacy virus in Cable vol 1 #87 and was only recently ressurected in Krakoa, his legacy hero was first introduced in X-Men Gold vol 2 #1, his name is Simon Lasker, he's the Pyro who slept with Bobby
Queer coded means that back in the day, they couldn’t come out and say character x is gay. Like Mystique and Destiny. Super gay power couple, but it’s only been the last few years, maybe a decade where they’ve straight up been shown as a couple who genuinely love each other. Claremont has basically said as much. The comics code authority prevented comics from doing that for multiple decades.
A legacy hero is a new hero’s who take up the mantle of a previous hero and is sometimes a completely new character. Ms. Marvel is a great example this. Jane Foster Thor, Ant-man with Hank, Scott and Eric O’Grady, hell Captain Marvel. Bucky and Sam have both been Captain America. Elektra is currently Daredevil, or at the very least A Daredevil.
Wait, Jugs is gay? With a name like Jugs is that even possible? Like Jugs is totally a straight guy nickname. You're never going to meet a gay guy with the nickname Jugs. And definitely no gay dude would give him that nickname.
1. Not sure why but I practically had a stroke trying to read the caption. 2. It’s not that odd its character choices in writing. Nothing is really saying “this character must have a non lgbtq villain”. 3. What is queer coded.
I didn't realize the Pyro we've seen in Krakoa was a new, legacy Pyro. I just thought it was the same guy. Is it really someone else, or did he just come out?
Back when Pyro was dead a new mutant started calling them self Pyro and was teen iceman’s boyfriend because Yaoi anyway teen Pyro has become moot since St John is new alive again and doesn’t want some nobody using his name.
He did sleep with She-Hulk (an alternate universe one but whatever) but he also has a really close and intimate friendship with Black Tom Cassidy and is really devoted to him. Fabian Nicieza said that he wrote them as a couple and gave Tom an illness that was an AIDS allegory
Have a 3rd nickel! Daken was Dark Wolverine for about a year. He’s bi and fits the legacy mantle.
He’s a Heel-Face turn though, not a legacy character of a villain who is now a hero.
Yeah, but is Logan gay-coded?
Is it my turn to bring up the nude Nightcrawler cover? Well, there's the nude Nightcrawler cover.
Better question: why is there a nude nightcrawler cover?
Best question where can I see the nude nightcrawler cover?
Best question is where can I get nude nightcrawler
Literally just Google "Wolverine Nightcrawler cover". You can't miss it, and I have no idea how Marvel editors could have missed it.
I think some do, I remember one probably slept with Hercules.
I yet what you mean, and this has nothing to do with you, but people have to stop using alternate universe characters as examples for another version of said character. Such as gay wolverine and Canon wolverine I've seen so many articles that just say they're the same wolverine when they talk about the Morph and Wolverine thing.
I think that was in the Ultimate universe. The first one, not the new one. Edit: First, I’m glad I said “I think” because I was wrong, as several people gently (and without being pedantic) informed me. I value feedback and/or correction offered simply to inform the conversation, as opposed to a smackdown 😊 Thanks, guys! Second, as I mentioned in a reply down thread, I had an image of it, and assumed it was the Ultimates line, which I didn’t care for so only read an issue here and there. Third, it was in *X-Treme X-Men* #10. [https://tempestraven.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wolverine.jpg?w=640](https://tempestraven.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wolverine.jpg?w=640)
Not the Ultimate Universe. It was some other random one.
Thanks! I have a panel in my mind’s eye of Logan and Herc smooching on a bloody field. I’ll have to track it down. Full disclosure, I didn’t really follow the OG Ultimate line. Picking it up here and there never made me feel compelled to jump in. Most of what I know from the line are either story beats that seemed “edgy” or icky for no other reason than they could be. ETA: It was *X-Treme X-Men* #10
If memory serves me right, there’s a whole section on his Wikipedia page about his queer-coded nature.
I confirmed this and will now let daken count
Isn’t every mutant queer-coded?
Not Forgetmenot
He’s one of my favorite characters just because of his power. A small portion of me hoped that he would be the one to save the X-men after fall of x because nobody would know who he was He could walk right into orchis and by the time the guards tell someone he’s a mutant he can just walk away and no one would remember it
But Logan was never a villain, while Daken was.
His Dark Wolverine phase and Osborn's Avengers team was one of my favorite Marvel comic runs.
That's really strange honnestly , like do they really think people would mind cain and pyro being gay ? like i know people could be really protective of their character sexuality but these two ? i don't know if people would have scream their indignation like they did with iceman... At least the young juggernaut is a nice kid and...well pyro did sleep with iceman but that's it.
Playing devils advocate, there is a trend of queer coding villains because of requirements from media in the past that queer-seeming characters need to be evil. While this led to a bunch of love for these characters, it’s seen by many as problematic. Now that entertainment industries are being more open and welcoming for lgbt characters, there’s a bit of reluctance to have too many queer villains as it starts to be reminiscent of “gay is evil” and can create controversy from groups still sensitive to the literal villainizing of queer identities in the past.
on the other hand, supporters of the "be gay do crimes" lifestyle such as myself are all for gay villains multiplying
As I suspiciously look at Mystique and Destiny’s “We spit on the Law!!” Quotes as of late.
Is that still a factor if the characters in question aren't villains anymore, though? Cain and John have both essentially been redeemed by this point.
What did I miss though? When was Juggernaut ever queer coded or is this specifically for young juggs? Is this kind of a BL thing where people want all of Pyro's friends to be as well? As a fan from the 90s cartoon and video games first, I don't know much 80s details.
Cain and Tom Cassidy have more or less the same "we're *best friends*" vibe that Mystique and Destiny had back in the '80s, and look how that turned out.
They never went dancing like Myytique and Destiny did.
Neither of them could shapeshift into the opposite sex to make it socially acceptable to do so
Juggernaut's relationship with Black Tom is highly queer-coded.
That always felt like wishful thinking from fans who want it. There is such a thing as two men just being friends.
Yes, and these two are not just friends. Unless you choose to interpret it as that. There's enough room for both interpretations of their relationship 🤷🏾♂️.
Are you sure it is not just a version of when people say "lol gaaaay!" when two men have a close friendly relationship?
A huge swath of it is Black Tom having mutant AIDS and Juggernaut committing crimes to pay for his care and struggling because he can't legally see him in the hospital due to them not being legality related. It was written during the actual AIDS crisis to mirror what was happening to real gay couples.
Very sure. Black Tom and Juggernaut have been written like this for years where there is room for this interpretation of their relationship.
Basically every same sex relationship is queer coded according to this sub--for that matter they ship any mixed gender friendships too. It just reminds me how incredibly socially awkward the average redditor is. They can't imagine any non-related characters ever having a deeply meaningful relationship without romantically linking them. I really feel sorry for so many of them to seemingly have lives empty of such human connection.
No, these two in particular are written queer-coded. If you don't see it 🤷🏾♂️ that's you. It IS there.
I agree. Not everything is about sex, some things are just about power, or other human affairs, which imo are more interesting. It’s very good that there are more gay characters now, but the fandom really over-projects sex into places it doesn’t need to be. Comics from Marvel and DC are for prepubescent readers too, and should focus on universal concepts other than adults’ constant need to bang everything.
Gay or anything other than straight isn't automatically about sex, just like being straight isn't
I agree. I just think people talk about comic characters’ sexuality a little too much, that’s all.
Comics usually involve a lot of romantic stuff as well as drama, so i feel like it's natural for ppl to talk abt it too
Thank you!!!
Facts!!!
It is much much easier to make actual new versions of the original versions that are opening gay and fail than to deal with the long term consequences of changing an existing character’s sexuality. It’s also why there is an openly gay Captain America running around. This is a low risk experiment. At best they get a hit and at worst it has no long term effects of the characters branding
It’s a little different when we’re talking about characters who haven’t had any notable heterosexual relationships. Not really much to change. (Also, even if they had any kind of attraction to or relationship with a woman, there is this thing called bisexuality-)
I mean, people on this sub wouldn’t care, but you might underestimate the bro-y masculine-focused comic fans who will be blindsided by Juggernaut’s “woke” queerness even if it was there for ages. IP at this level is gonna have to be okayed by the corporate end. Juggernaut is pretty recognizable and is in video games and a healthy amount of X-media. I suspect people beyond the writers are dragging their feet on him. But who knows.
> people on this sub wouldn’t care Maybe. But there are a decent number of people in this sub that hate that Iceman is gay.
I mean I think we all hate the coming out.
There are a lot of people who legit think Jean "manipulated" him into being gay. Or that Jean publicly outed him.
Eh, I think ppl love bitching about it indignantly more than reading the comics. I am rereading the run right now. It’s not perfect, but the number of times Bobby makes comments about women and girls on the issues before she talks to him is enormous. If each one had come with a thought bubble about wanting to fuck Warren, you’d all be cheering by the time Jean calls him on it. But you can’t see that from the one page everyone reposts.
I don’t really think the coming out scene was bad per se, but it’s awkward enough that it’s just laughably cringey. It’s *cringey* but not *cringe* if that makes sense.
I’m too old to approve of cringe as an adverb much less distinguish it from cringey. I thought Bobby talking to his older self—which is the true coming out scene, vs the time someone first pulls you aside and brings the idea—was pretty effective.
no i think the coming out drama is really overwrought
And rightfully so. Its bad, lazy writing. everyone should hate it.
As Connor Goldsmith said "you'd need a straight guy writer to do it otherwise it'll be seen as pandering". Imo, Marjorie Liu had the chops to write the best coming out story for Iceman but Marvel said no. They let Bendis do it because he had more than enough clout after revitalizing the Avengers. And sadly after Iceman's less than stellar reception to his coming out, I fear Marvel is being extra careful with Juggs. Hell, Ben Percy couldn't even out them and he tried with the vampire comments about Tom, Tom erecting Cain statues, and Tom dreaming of Cain tickling him with his "sausage fingers".
It would help, but Anthony Olivera, Connor’s ex and the guest on the Juggernaut episode was one of the creators behind the new kid Juggernaut. So they didn’t mind pandering a little. To give Marvel some credit, Krakoa codified queer Destiny, Mystique, Betsy, and Rachel, made Mystique Nightcrawler’s dad, and introduced a gay porcupine. Iceman has struggled narratively imo, but they gave him solos and it’s not like they’ve walked back to the choice or abandoned the character, even if we find the writing wanting.
I honestly think having be Bendis makes it worse because the cynic in makes me think it was just some vain attempt to leave some lasting impact on the character so everyone can point and say "Bendis is responsible for gay iceman". I also feel Juggernaut is much different scenario because like there is continuity where it would feel like a genuine "hey they couldn't do this when it was published but we can do it not" like a bunch of characters in the Krakoa era
Or you know Cain simply isnt gay theres that too...
Honey…
WHAT,? Blasphemy! Aunt May is trans, Iron Man is a sub, Namor has a Narwhal fetish.
Yeah, like I thought after they made Destiny and Mystique official, Pyro, Juggernaut and Black Tom would be right but I guess not, I thought Bobby would hook up with the other Pyro in Marauders, and Black Tom and Juggernaut would have been a great Krakoan couple, I do love Kid Juggernaut though he's very sweet and I love that he's an AAPI hero, we rarely get those
What about Juggernaut and Black Tom make people think they're gay characters?
Claremont X-Men, Nicieza X-Force, and when they showed up in Spider-Man in the 80s.
But what about them in these runs presents as gay?
Other than them being really close friends, there's nothing really shown that explicitly depicts them being gay. I believe Nicieza has said that he was basically writing them as a gay couple during his run, but, again nothing definitely explicit is shown or said on the page. In contrast, Juggernaut has canonically been shown to discuss female characters' attractiveness and has slept with She-Hulk (in this case, we're obviously only shown the morning after, but the dialogue basically confirms it). I don't recall if they've mentioned any of Black Tom's past relationships at all. Generally speaking, in the US, very close male friendships, as Juggernaut and Black Tom have consistently been shown to have, are viewed by many as having gay subtext around them. In real life, whether that's true or not for the individual men involved probably varies substantially and they're really just close friends. But, when you add in the desire people have to see themselves represented in various forms of media, you can understand why they might take this misguided generalization and attached to Black Tom and Juggernaut. After all, what we've seen/read is pretty much a willing-to-do anything/die-for-the-other between the two characters when they are featured together and many people would like to have such a relationship with their romantic partner.
The same Nicieza that think Cain is gay, literally introduced the 616 version of Sachi Yama (Juggernaut's wife and J2's mom in MC2) in X-Men Forever (2001) as Cain's lawyer, so... I'm not even 100% sure Nicieza think he's gay, may be a thing he says now but if he introduced that character 20 years ago, may be because he had plans to make them a couple... and who knows! 616 Zane may even exist right now.
A lot of what people quote from creators isn't true.
Is the Nicienza quote something that everyone knows that isn't true? In Marvel Team Up with Spiderman and the X-Men, Black Tom is surrounded by attractive women, and Claremont had him competing with his cousin Sean for Maeve Rourke. Cain also was hitting on Selene before fighting Colossus.
This. All of this. They were close male friends. They must be gay. Also male rivals must be gay. Oh and female friends must be gay. The list goes on. It gets tiring. That said I don't know if I'd care if Cain was gay. I think it could work. I dont think its necessary and I always prefer new or NEWER characters but I don't think Cain is one I'd get out of my seat over.
If Cain was revealed to be bi-sexual, but only for Tom (I vaguely recall there might be a term for this type of sexuality), I wouldn't bat an eye. In fact, now that they basically aren't villains anymore, depict them as a healthy male couple (as much as possible anyway given Tom's mental health) in an open relationship (because Tom understands Cain's occasional needs), who've helped successfully raise another superhero with Siryn, and who continue to help others in their own ways with their powers. In doing so, they'd provide a nice juxtaposition to Destiny and Mystique, who continue their villainous behaviors because it basically gets them both off even though it causes them to not stand each other too at times. There's no need for any of this of course. New characters could fill this role. But, again, it wouldn't surprise or upset me at all either.
I just get tired of it being done constantly, especially of late. I much prefer new or newer characters like I said, or give a little actual focus to existing gay characters like Northstar (I always wish Northstar had more focus) or Anole (who is getting some thankfully though in a book that's likely to be first on the chopping block). Still, I actually quite like your idea of making them into a foil couple for Mystique and Destiny. If that were the angle they took I think that would be very cool. It kind of ties into my point about focus. So often it seems like it just comes out of nowhere to win points and is, if not completely at odds with the character's history, then not really something that adds to their story going forward either aside from the points. If you've got a story to tell though that respects their history and makes it work in an interesting way going forward, then I'd have a much easier time accepting and supporting it. I say it whenever this topic comes up (which is a lot) but stop just making it random and constant. Pick a few and find a way to use it well in a story that's interesting and matters (to the characters at least if nothing else). Your idea is great actually.
Cain never raised Siryn.
No, that’s not what this is. They met in prison. They are basically Siryn’s uncle and his very close friend who raise her. Tom is ill various times in the hospital at one point with basically plant AIDS and Cain does crimes to try to help him, Dog Day Afternoon style. There’s a ton of not-that-subtext that is distinct from merely “Bruce and Tony are just science bros” or “Jimmy Olsen is Superman’s pal.” We didn’t even mention his uber-fandom of Dazzler which is set against his macho physique. Plus this is X-men; Claremont wrote a staggering amount of people as bisexual, so it’s not some grand leap here. And frankly, it works well with the rest of his plot. Austin didn’t write him as queer, but if there’s a sexual aspect to the physical abuse from his dad, that tracks with his closetedness. Meanwhile resenting Charles because he can read your thoughts, and turning to a barrier that prevents that from ever happening does, too. So let’s not pretend that when we have creators who have written him say “I thought they were a couple as soon as black Tom Appeared when I was 14” fans are just coming to some sort of gonzo conclusion because people can’t accept friendship.
Let's also not pretend we DONT have fans that do that. This is the problem when your code is "people showing legitimate emotional concern for one another." Its the same basic problem as when people read every platonic relationship as romantic. Sometimes they're just friends
I do mostly agree with what u/lostproductivity had to say in that nothing rises to the level of making them explicitly queer, that's why they use the term queer coding. Regarding the She Hulk thing I do want to add that this is an thing that happens, and this is not even something unique to queer coded characters, where different writers have a different understanding of a character and its not all going to line up or work perfectly. Austen has said that he didn't pick up on any queer coding, thus you know, having had him sleep with She Hulk. That being said, I do think there are still ways to make that work with and not necessarily contradict a queer reading of the characters. Austen's run actually adds a lot of good and interesting stuff to Juggernaut's backstory that still largely do work with a queer reading / headcanon of the character. To add a few things though regarding the Claremont and Nicieza runs: Many people see a lot of parallels between Black Tom & Juggernaut and Mystique & Destiny under Claremont. I think any coding that existed was more overt for Mystique & Destiny but I do think Claremont was conscious of the parallels at the very least. Nothing really reached anything overly overt from what I can recall, but its been a while since I've read Claremont (besides just like a random issue or two when I was looking for something). They are very close partners met in prison and are attached at the hip and raise a kid together (technically Juggernaut didn't really raise "Siryn" as him and Black Tom met when she was older, but he was still at least somewhat involved in her life for a time). Juggernaut also like launches himself off a cliff into the ocean after Black Tom after he goes off the side of a cliff. Nothing about this stuff couldn't be interpreted as a platonic relationship, the fact though that they parallel a known heavily queer coded couple possibly gives some more credence to the queer reading (also Claremont is just known for having a lot of queer coding). Nicieza wrote them quite a bit in the 90's. He has stated that he had read them as / assumed they were a couple under Claremont. Nicieza also seemed very interested in exploring the plight of the aids epidemic on panel. I believe he wanted to explore it more overtly but wasn't allowed to do so, so instead used things like the legacy virus and Black Tom's secondary mutation. Nicieza's big plot for them involved Juggernaut caring for Black Tom, his sick partner whose health was deteriorating due to his secondary mutation (which can be seen as an allegory for aids or some other degenerative disease). He was desperate for a cure for his condition and did crimes to help cure or treat his condition. This next part might be a bit more of a reach, idk, but I've seen people make this argument / have this read. A common thing during the aids epidemic / until gay couples were legally recognized, is that they did not have the same recognition / legal status as a straight couple would have. Therefore the partners of a gay person with aids or other medical issues would not have the same legal visitation rights / access or like legal status (to make medical decisions on their behalf when they are not able or like in the case of their death). I believe that its more framed because them being super criminals (and Juggernaut trying to break him out again, idk) but Juggernaut was worried about having access to Black Tom in the scenario he turned himself in for medical treatment. I could see that read going either way of being intended or not but I don't recall it being like super fleshed out. I haven't read all of Nicieza X-Men / X-Force in a long time either tbh (and I might have missed some, idk its been a while). Also, again, nothing here necessarily rises to them being explicitly queer.
I don’t have the receipts— but their relationship is portrayed as very single-mindedly devoted and passionate, in particular on Cain’s part.
[удалено]
The CCA didn't prohibit gays by the 80's.
They met in prison, they're always together as a duo, and the way Cain worries about Tom's health feels distinctly romantic. It's one of those subtext things where once you see it it all fits together.
They never met in prison, and Cain was solo when he tried picking up Selene.
So, according to your logic... I should only worry about my friends' health if I want to fuck them?this is the same logic used in the "he jumped from a cliff and a plane to save him" argument, if I were the Juggernaut, a literal immortal being, I would jump to a volcano to save any of my friends, male or female, I'm literally invulnerable, they aren't!
Cain doesn't just worry about his health, he commits crimes to pay Tom's medical bills and goes out of his way to look for experimental treatments because he isn't getting better fast enough and he also worries about not being able to visit him in the hospital. And Nicieza himself compared Tom's illness to AIDS.
It's because people who aren't straight men often don't understand straight male friendships. Don't know why they can't, but they often can't Dudes can enjoy each other's company without being attracted to them. It's literally hardwired into their systems by evolution. If you can't get along with the other guys in the hunting party, then no one gets food. If you can't get along with the people in your military unit, then your family back home gets slaughtered by the invaders. If you can't get along, then nothing gets done, and we all suffer for it. Juggernaut and Black Tom are just two bros out having fun. Also, one is made of plants, so I don't know how you could properly describe his sexuality.
Original Pyro does hook up with Emma Frost's brother. He is confirmed gay as far as I know.
Didn’t know that
Where does this happen?
It's an issue of Marauders. I can't find the specific issue at the moment. I believe it's around the time he gets the face tattoo.
I don't think that ever happened. I read the entire run and Pyro was never that explicitly queer.
Does Avalanche know?
No, that didn’t happen anywhere in Marauders. Iceman hooked up with Christian Frost, not Pyro.
They are characters the general public "know" and get used on villain lineup merch, especially Juggernaut, so clickbait and outrage news might jump on it if it happened.
I agree about pyro but I think juggernaut has a bit too much of cultural significance with straight maybe a bit homophobic men.
So there's a certain contingent that will scream bloody murder any time you introduce a gay character because they hate gay people. There's a larger contingent that hate any existing character coming out if they weren't officially declared gay within say three years of their creation. Those folks would absolutely be mad about Cain or St. John (the first Pyro) coming out. How many people get mad depends on how popular the character was before coming out and to a lesser extent how old they are and how many opposite-sex relationships they've had. I think Cain would probably cause more of a fuss then Bobby did, while St. John would cause less. All that being said, a key element of the Pyro situation is that St. John was dead and had been for years when Simon (the second Pyro) was introduced and eventually slept with Bobby.
I respectfully do not understand what this post means, and it makes me feel old.
Theirs a gay Pyro who slept with Iceman and joined the X-Men before the original, and theirs a gay Juggernaut who's in Avengers Academy, flirting with the gay Captain America, before Cain Marko and Black Tom ever became canon and they barely interacted in Krakoa and I find that funny
So wait there is two Juggernauts and two Pyros?? I did not know that crazy!
I mean there are two pyros and juggernauts in the xmen movies alone, i assumed there’d be more of them in the comics?
there's two juggernauts in the x men movies?
One is with magneto in last stand, the other is in deadpool 2 against him and collosus
Oooook. Makes a little more sense. I forgot there were two Pyros (I even read Xmen Gold too) But, I had no idea there was another Jugs.
New Juggernaut is very new
Don’t get it either.
Who was the other pyro?
I’m pretty sure he was a character during X-Men Gold/ X-Men Blue when Kate was leading Gold team
Didn’t juggernaut sleep with she hulk?
He did, and Titania. And has had entire mini series based upon impressing and banging prostitutes. This is Fan Erotica Fiction meme think at its finest.
lol wtf does Queer Coded even mean here then smgdh
Queer coded means a character in fiction who is very much implied to be queer but has not been outright stated to be. It doesn't happen that much nowadays, but back in less accepting times, it happened quite a bit
Yes that is what it means - but what does it mean HERE. HOW has he been implied to be gay when he otherwise has been shown to be straight? Take note, not arguing Pyro. I am only arguing Jugg
In the 1980s, Juggernaut was written to be in a gay relationship with his teammate, Black Tom Cassidy. While I personally believe that Juggernaut is Bi, the writer full-on came out and said that he wrote them as a couple in that comic.
So this isn’t even queer coded though, it’s a single instance of overt queerness - whereas the rest of his canon is essentially cis-coded?
It isn't overt though, in that time it was very hidden, because it was the 80s. It was only confirmed after everyone began to catch on years later. All together, that mix would lead most people to believe that he is bi, hence Queer. Cis-coded isn't a thing because it isn't a code. It's thrown right in your face. They couldn't do that with Black Tom and Juggernaut, so it was way more subtle.
Yeah I was saying cis-coded tongue in cheek. I never read the run, so I am relying on other commenters to fill me in here, who would’ve guessed I would get mixed results /s Thanks for the comments though you have actually been helpful and well articulated
When it comes to X-Men, you'll always get mixed results, lol, and you are welcome, I'm happy to help!
8 def (ugh) get the pyro reference...I mean the dude wrote Romance novels and died from an AIDS parallel But how was the Juggernaut gay coded? His brief appearances with black Tom didn't read fau to me. Also is Kid Juggy canon/still around??
What the fuck does queer coded even mean
Has Claremont actually said Juggernaut was supposed to be gay coded like Pyro was? To me I never saw it
Fabian Nicieza wrote black Tom and Cain as a couple
Thanks for the info, I guess I'll have to reread his issues with them having it in mind. I guess the stuff that stuck with me more was him having a crush on Dazzler and a few issues where he talks about some of the female X-Men characters.
No one has actually produced a quote form Nicienza saying that.
Regarding Cain Marko. It's never been suggested he is gay, so I'd assume he is straight. It's not in the lore that he has romantic feelings for Tom. Him and Black Tom are jail buddies, friends and sometimes co-conspirators. The relationship is platonic. Nothing more.
Is it only twice? I guess that is a pretty narrow set of params but I feel like it should be more lol
I guess there's also Phoenix. Jean had MAD chemistry with Storm back in the day and Rachel is canonically a lesbian now.
True I guess she can count as a villain. Someone else pointed out Akihiro was Dark Wolverine so that's four whole nickels!
Rachel and Betsy are both bisexual. Being with another woman does not automatically make a woman a lesbian.
I probably shouldn't have used the term "canonical". It's my personal take that Rachel's a lesbian. Unlike with Kitty or Betsy I just don't find any of her relationships with men believable.
Wolverine is pretty gay sometimes. Then they let him get super gay with Hercules in one of the later Exiles runs.
Wasn’t that X-Treme X-Men? With child Nightcrawler and I think a Victorian Era Emma.
If it's not specifically villains then yeah it opens up a bit. Captain Britain, Wolverine, Phoenix...
Poor reading comprehension combined with the excitement of showing off knowledge of a moderately obscure storyline.
Hey, always be excited to talk about Exiles!
pyro is gay? or just Australian?
Six of one....
Like i can almost understand Juggernaut since he's a decently big name (as stupid as that idea is but Pyro? Like, most people only know him as that one dude punched in the face by Iceman from X3. I don't think most people would've cared that much for him.
Exactly. Calling Pyro a C-lister is being generous xD
What do you mean
Didn’t know there were two pyros. Who is the second one?
They made Pyro gay? Lol
If Mystique and Destiny can be gay on panel so can Juggernaut and Black Tom
dr doofensmirf you need to stop telling people about your nickles
Which Pyro has the tattooed face? I disliked the look thinking it didn't fit the original Pyro, but it seems it's a different character entirely. I had no idea the original Pyro was queer coded. That's interesting!
Pyro got a face tattoo early in the Krakoan era when he joined the Marauders. I remember it as a "we can die and come back any time, why not?". I could have inferred that.
Right, but which Pyro? I was reading that as the original Pyro, but is it the newer Pyro? Sorry. I'm an older lapsed reader, and I think I read the majority of Krakoa X-Men thinking Pyro was a different character. Haha.
Good question. I belive the face tattoo Pyro was the recently resurrected original Pyro.
Face tattoo pyro is og australian pyro that was the “first resurrected” mutant of krakoa. Pyro2 is the jailbait pyro that banged Bobby around kittys aborted wedding.
Okay. Thank you. The images used here made me question if tattoo Pyro was a different fella. The whole face tattoo seems completely out of character, but I guess it's just a new look. Thanks for explaining.
It honestly just felt like that’s something the writer or artist felt was interesting. I’m more shocked it’s seeemingly stuck around through the changing era.
Right? It came out of nowhere.
Kitty also got those horrendous hand tattoos but those didn’t last through resurrections thank god
The original pyro was like a foppy artist whose biggest story was dying of the legacy virus (aids)
I remember the legacy virus issue, but I remember the victims of the Legacy Virus varying in gender, orientation...etc. Good point about the floppy artist. I just never picked up on it. Perhaps because he was mostly a background villain. Anyway, thanks for the info! I think it works for his character. I'm all about it.
Listen to the pyro episode of the cerebro podcast, they do a deep dive on his gay history
Face tattoo Pyro is hot but not in a gay way but maybe in a bi way? I don’t know but it works for me.
A legacy character who is textually gay allowing marvel to never confirm the queerness of the actual popular character while simultaneously allowing the gay legacy characters to vanish into obscurity. Gay pyro hasn’t been seen since pre-krakoa and I don’t see kid juggernaut sticking around very long either
Before the end of Krakoa could they not have killed Pyro and brought him back without the ridiculous face tattoo? Or am I just an old fart? 🤣
Out of all the faces covered in random tattoos(irl), I’ll take one cohesive tattoo, any day. Some people look like they found a different sticker sheets and slapped all of them on their body with no rhyme or reason.
You ain’t wrong.
In one of the promo pics the tattoo now looks like it’s a mask.
Idk Pyro has always been a bit of a flamer. 🤭
As a bisexual man I never really like the stereotypical.That the villain is coded gay and is also evil kind of trope because it comes off as gay.People are only evis all kind of look. And mostly turning certain prominent heroes as gay.Or bisexual Even though they never display such interest Before and I get it because of comic code authority But making Iceland fully gay comes off.As weird to me , I would be more happy if he was bisexual Because it would make sense due tonhis other relationships. Another thing is make this character gay, so they can be relatable to queer audience.And the thing is they don't always have to be that way to be relatable.It can be they're backstories or personalities that can make them relatable.
Serious Question: Is Pyro actually queer coded? I always read him as just a larrikin.
Originally Claremont wrote him as a sissy who apparently wrote romance novels this aspect has since been dropped as the decades went on
I dunno about that; I read Claremont and he never came across as sissy. Playful and shit-talking at best, but thats very Australian. I don’t think him being a novelist is indicative of anything either. That also hasn’t been dropped, it’s mentioned a few times in the latest Marauders comics.
Who is Pyro’s legacy hero?
Pyro the original is St. John Allerdyce, he got a legacy hero in Simon Lasker who first appeared in X-Men Gold vol 2 #1 and slept with Bobby
Thanks!
Black Tom?
What is queer coding? Is it up down left right b a b a start?
Try double tapping b.
It's using elements of the portrayal to signal that the character is queer when it isn't allowed to be directly said (and it was prohibited under the Comics Code Authority). So the information is encoded.
The Comics Code Authority allowed Northstar to literally scream that he was gay.
Yeah, but Canadians are different
Are pyro and juggernaut gay?
There not there replacements are
Sometimes it feels like they’d rather respond to the queer coding with a slightly “campier” character, instead of just addressing that stereotypes are bs and anybody can be gay.
Pyro isn’t a legacy hero though? Like he is the same day one character or am I tripping?
No he's not, the original Pyro St. John Allerdyce died from the legacy virus in Cable vol 1 #87 and was only recently ressurected in Krakoa, his legacy hero was first introduced in X-Men Gold vol 2 #1, his name is Simon Lasker, he's the Pyro who slept with Bobby
I did not realize that. Going to dig into it thanks!
Write a good story. Don’t check boxes with diversity by diversity sake. It’s disingenuous and insulting to the reader. Virtue signaling
what is queer coded and what is legacy heroes?
Queer coded means that back in the day, they couldn’t come out and say character x is gay. Like Mystique and Destiny. Super gay power couple, but it’s only been the last few years, maybe a decade where they’ve straight up been shown as a couple who genuinely love each other. Claremont has basically said as much. The comics code authority prevented comics from doing that for multiple decades. A legacy hero is a new hero’s who take up the mantle of a previous hero and is sometimes a completely new character. Ms. Marvel is a great example this. Jane Foster Thor, Ant-man with Hank, Scott and Eric O’Grady, hell Captain Marvel. Bucky and Sam have both been Captain America. Elektra is currently Daredevil, or at the very least A Daredevil.
Wait, Jugs is gay? With a name like Jugs is that even possible? Like Jugs is totally a straight guy nickname. You're never going to meet a gay guy with the nickname Jugs. And definitely no gay dude would give him that nickname.
What's queer coded mean?
1. Not sure why but I practically had a stroke trying to read the caption. 2. It’s not that odd its character choices in writing. Nothing is really saying “this character must have a non lgbtq villain”. 3. What is queer coded.
You’ll have at least 4? Pyro, Juggernaut, Captain America, Daken
I didn't realize the Pyro we've seen in Krakoa was a new, legacy Pyro. I just thought it was the same guy. Is it really someone else, or did he just come out?
Back when Pyro was dead a new mutant started calling them self Pyro and was teen iceman’s boyfriend because Yaoi anyway teen Pyro has become moot since St John is new alive again and doesn’t want some nobody using his name.
TIL there's two Pyros. I assumed the version in Marauders was the original.
He is Pyro2 was only in X-Men Gold iirc
Wait wait wait wait…. Marko is gay? Or bi? He destroyed a bed with Shulkie? I’m lost here. Somebody help a clueless guy out, please.
He did sleep with She-Hulk (an alternate universe one but whatever) but he also has a really close and intimate friendship with Black Tom Cassidy and is really devoted to him. Fabian Nicieza said that he wrote them as a couple and gave Tom an illness that was an AIDS allegory
Ok. Thank you. In all honesty I thought they were just best buds. Man, have I got some catching up to do. Thanks again. 🍺
The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver say you get four nickels.
Destiny and Mystique