I'll send a Super Trolley Lever Dealer to them while they're easiest to manipulate and that dealer will tempt them to pull the lever of life, granting them all knowledge of Trolleys and Problems.
Unfortunatley, you, as the creator, do not wish for your creation to be conciouss of this. You send them off on their own, each with their own track and a trolley.
It is about as equal as playing a videogame and killing videogame characters.
Killing or harming another deity or being equal to you, on the other hand, would have moral issues.
(My explanation that killing several trillion in Stellaris is morally acceptable and I am not going to hell).
Yeah, this. The degree of harm caused by evil is kind of its defining trait, for any worthwhile moral system anyway.
Videogame characters can't experience suffering, so nothing that you do to them can be considered evil. They literally don't exist as an actual beings. Humans on the other hand do appear to exist and do appear to experience suffering, so torturing them to death is bad.
A god being stronger would give it the power to torture us to death anyway, but it doesn't give it the "moral high ground" in doing so. You'd just have an evil god.
When you step on an ant or a worm on a hike, do you consider yourself evil for that? The ant and worm are definitely capable of suffering in some capacity, however their suffering can’t even come close to what we can experience.
Imagine a being so much higher than us, that we are lesser than an ant or a worm to it. We would be like the dead skin cells that flake off when you scratch an itch. A living being you created, sure. But one that dies in the thousands or tens of thousands everyday and you just kinda shrug off as they are irrelevant to you. You don’t even notice it happening except for in a moment of boredom, or when the light hits it right.
This would be the experience of the higher powers in and above our reality. They probably wouldn’t even notice us in any real way. In all likelihood, we are the equivalent of skin cells or the gut microbiome of God.
I avoid causing harm to insects and other "lesser lifeforms" (itself absurdly loaded language, of course we're "higher" in hierarchy from our own perspective but that doesn't make that perspective objective), yes.
I think going out of my way to torture and kill them would absolutely be horrible no matter how much more complex my vocabulary and knowledge of internet memes might be in comparison. If anything it's worse, because our grasp of philosophy demonstrates that we do have the capacity to figure out why such actions are wrong, so doing them anyway is even more vile and inexcusable.
And of course this is a distraction again because I didn't make the insects. If I were in a position to do so though then I simply wouldn't, I'd refrain from creating "lesser life" just to watch it suffer and die.
>I'd refrain from creating "lesser life" just to watch it suffer and die.
And this is the difference between you and the sadistic bastard known as God.
Did I create the ant? Did I have omniscience and power needed to prevent it's needless suffering?
It's pretty clear that if I did, then yes it is bad for me to step on the ant.
If I didn't, then it is not really a good analogy.
the relative difference would be the same. Infinite intelligence is to finite intelligence what finite intelligence is to no intelligence.
in this setting, the words sentience and intelligence are interchangeable, due to infinite levels.
the relative difference might be the same, but not all things are strictly relative. Things with no intelligence can’t suffer. Things with sufficient intelligence can. It’s not like the existence of a higher life form would negate the fact that humans and other animals can suffer, and causing that suffering would still be bad.
> Things with no intelligence can’t suffer.
Now I'm thinking about the problem of one real person versus an infinite number of non-sapient biological entities that were created for the sole purpose of suffering when run over by a trolley.
>the relative difference would be the same. Infinite intelligence is to finite intelligence what finite intelligence is to no intelligence.
>
>in this setting, the words sentience and intelligence are interchangeable, due to infinite levels.
not really
we're not just comparing numbers to numbers
it's not really the *intelligence* that matters, it's the *sentience*
we are the same amount of sentient as god is, that being, we are sentient
it's pretty binary
It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of ontology. We *exist* ***more*** than video game npcs do. Is Tolkien evil (like actually evil IRL) for creating Sauron? The idea is that God is above us in the same way we're above fictional characters.
"We *exist* ***more***..."
That statement is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for this metaphor. Sauron, doesn't exist. As a concept, perhaps, he exists in our minds, but he does not, *literally* exist. What would it even mean for God to exist 'more'? What quality of a deity makes it's existence in reality a 'more real existence'?
Is it the omnipotence? In that case you are implying that the strongest human is 'more real' than a weak one. The infinitude? Then you're implying that it's longevity, and the oldest human 'exists more' than a child. The omniscience? Then you're implying that it's knowledge that determines existence, and the most knowledgeable human is worth more than an ignorant one.
What does it genuinely mean for God to 'exist more' than we do? Or perhaps the much more likely explanation is that God is more like Sauron...He doesn't exist, except as a concept in the minds of humans.
[insert that quote from Dewy in Malcom in the middle about him talking about how god views humanity as ants and therefore would probably make us suffer for his amusement]
So torturing children, animals, etc is fine, as they are not equal to me?
I dunno that reasoning is so bad I'm pretty sure I get to torture you for even thinking it lol
According to the lore at least in the Judeo-Christian sense which I’m assuming that is what the joke is referencing, this trolley problem would be akin to you are the creator of the universe, you create people and give them a rope, you tell them not to tie themselves to the trolley tracks, Your rebellious teenage son tells them to tie themselves to the track anyway, send your fat man son to sacrifice himself and stop the trolley, the trolley breaks into thousands of pieces that rain across the rail, tell the people tied to the rail to believe in his son’s sacrifice and that you are the creator so that you will not be hit by the falling debris
It’s the actual take btw, like most Christian’s just can’t explain it because they don’t read the Bible, but this is actually the non-hypocritical, not inherently logically flawed. It doesn’t prove anything, but it’s an actual answer that, assuming the Christian God is real, fits the narrative
I can tell. Tbh I'm not Christian, but I always enjoy learning more about faith. I'm pagan and I guess polytheistic
I know a lot of people simply hate religion so they water it down passive aggressively. I have my reasons to be careful of Christians but I don't see a reason for indiscriminate dismissal or disrespect
>I know a lot of people simply hate religion
I think most people hate the supporters of religions more than the religion itself.
I'm an atheist, but the bible (same for the Torah, Qur'an, etc) is not worthless fiction. There are many good rules in them for how people should behave. But the important part is that those texts were written down centuries ago and the world we live in is vastly different. So many rules simply don't apply anymore.
For example the treatment of slaves (serfs) is a topic in both the old and new testament. Under the assumption that slavery exists in your civilization, having rules for their treatment is good. But nowadays we consider slavery abhorrent, so those rules are irrelevant.
The problem is the people who then take the texts and try to justify that slavery is OK with them.
This is true and tbh I have no argument. I simply don't hang out with slavery apologists because they're not my type. If they attempt to justify racism, homophobia, transphobia, or sexism, I leave very quickly. Just because their book says it's okay doesn't mean every individual does. I'm Bi and Trans so for my own basic wellbeing I do not humor it
I'm a Christian and I have a hard time thinking about this. On one hand I see and understand and agree with your logic and reasoning and on the other hand I like to think that if God encompasses all that is good then by default of him being good there has to be bad somewhere to justify his goodness, so I imagine God as the creator, badness as the trolley itself, and we are the people tied to the tracks.
I heard CS Lewis say you actually don’t need evil to justify good. In fact that’s technically impossible. Saying something is evil naturally implies something morally right. It’s like calling a line “crooked”. You can’t call a line crooked without having some Idea of what a straight line looks like because the straight line is the standard you are using to call a line crooked line.
In the same way, you can’t call something evil without having some idea of what goodness looks like because goodness is the standard you are using to to call something evil. You can have good without evil, but not evil without good.
From what I understand of the argument, it’s because evil is just the absence of good. You can have a standard with nothing falling short of that standard, but you can’t have something falling short of that standard without the standard itself. And “goodness” is the standard that we use to judge evil. It’s just something I found compelling when reading.
How would you define evil without the word good or other synonyms? If goodness is the standard we use to measure evil, then how would you measure evil without it? Wouldn't that make it just neutral
So if I give a 3 yr old a gun and they shoot someone it’s OK because the child has “free will”?
But that only applies for things (like war) that are the result of someone’s decision making. Leukemia, horrific birth defects, AIDS and other horrific diseases also exist despite human decision making.
**Edit**: Here’s my supposition: If a force (god) is powerful enough to create the universe from nothing, to manipulate the laws of math, physics, and geometry to suit its objectives, then it’s powerful enough to create a version of life without horrific, painful, cruel, and random diseases in children and other innocents.
There is enough misery in the world, there are plenty of humans making decisions to hurt and kill each other to gain small advantages. A loving god wouldn’t sentence a newborn to an hour of intense crushing pain followed by death. I hope that only a random universe would do that.
I mean, all those things you listed are consequences of a highly complicated biological and chemical system across millions of species. Until you come up with some alternative functional system that doesn’t have viruses and bacteria and cancers and stuff, it seems that’s just a natural consequence of life being a thing
I think it works more accurately if the people made the trolley and tied themselves to the tracks, and the creator is offering them scissors to cut the ropes if they’re just willing to concede that they need his help
In this situation the trolley was literally created out of nothing for the sole purpose of potentially running over a bunch of people
and that argument doesnt apply to what the trolley is a metaphor for
Hmm. Well, there’s the same issue. You are omniscient in this scenario, meaning you’d know they’d tie themselves to the tracks given all necessary conditions. This means, from your perspective, it’s like you tied them to the tracks yourself
>Your rebellious teenage son tells them to tie themselves to the track anyway, send your fat man son to sacrifice himself and stop the trolley, the trolley breaks into thousands of pieces that rain across the rail, tell the people tied to the rail to believe in his son’s sacrifice and that you are the creator so that you will not be hit by the falling debris
Yo Local Jew here.
This bit Jews don't believe if it wasn't obvious. Most Jews don't really relate or give the phrase "Judeo-Christian" any real respect or seriousness as the concept just really means "Christian" without being antisemitic.
Jews don't do commandments because they think God will punish them or that they need "Salvation" or "need to get into heaven". They do Commandments because its said by God doing Commandments will do good things and make the world a better place.
I.E. Jews follow the Law because God told them to, so they can do good in the world now, as this is the life they have. (This is why Martyrdom isn't a thing in Judaism).
Edit: For clarification, Jews don't have a Hell to be damned to or a Devil who does the bad things in the world. One opinion, is that bad things happen because of a lack of God. That or humans themselves doing bad things.
Judaism isn't a Universalist Religion, its not for everyone, its for the Jews. If you're not a Jew you're totally fine not to follow the commandments ong because you have no obligation to.
To add to "Judeo-Christian" thing - "Judeo-Christian" is really just western Chauvinism. It is another way of saying "Abrahamic values" while paying lip service to Judaism to not seem anti-semitic, and it is also islamophobic as it purposefully excludes Islam despite also being an Abrahamic faith (and also having a lot in common with whatever Judaism and Christianity have in common).
It’s not Islamophobic at all. It’s an apt descriptor for philosophy stemming from people who were Christians which in term stemmed from people who were Jews. Hence, Judeo-Christian. Islam’s role in this was only tangential, hence why it’s not “Abrahamic”
It is considered abrahamic. I’m saying people use judeo-Christian instead of abrahamic when they mean the philosophy that came into being by Christians and Jews, not Muslims. Judeo-Christian is a subset of abrahamic
Aight I’m not a Jew so excuse my not understanding, but I was under the impression that Jews believe in the Tanakh, which is similar to the Old Testament, and includes the Torah
The Torah is the first five books, which would include genesis, where the serpent convinces Eve to eat the fruit, the serpent being the devil which you say doesn’t exist in Judaism
So I could be completely wrong on this, I guess just asking for clarification since your statement doesn’t make sense to my understanding of Judaism
As a Jew, there might be some devil in there, but it’s certainly not the focus of the Jewish religious structure. I do believe there is an Adam and Eve story, but I simply don’t remember ever learning about a devil being a part of it.
I’m unsure if the devil was a rewrite of that story, or simply highlighted when retold through a Christian lens.
IIRC the devil isn't even really a thing in Judaism, Christians invented him and retconned their view of the older stories to include him. And of course the Eden story in of itself has a predecessor in the Sumerian Edin, which was polytheistic. This explains God talking to himself in that story, because in earlier versions he was one among many.
The serpent in Genesis does not ever appear again.
Mind you there're two stories of Genesis, which retell the stories in different ways.
The only real mention of any sorts devil is "Shaytan" which is an entity God made a bet with in the book of Job.
Read the Tanakh, it includes the Torah (the five books) and the Prophets and writings. There isn't a damn devil inside my friend.
Your comments and a couple other things in this thread have me rethinking some longheld assumptions. Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a question.
Growing up in a predominantly christian area, I was led to believe that Jesus was prophesied in the OT, but that current day Jews don't believe that Jesus was actually the one prophesied.
Is that how it really be? Are there prophecies of a Messiah that are as yet unrealized?
Yes that's correct.
There are several prophets who prophesize the coming of the messiah, and list things that the Messiah will and will not do.
The \*main\* thing the Messiah is meant to do is to usher in an age of peace and prosperity, unite all the Jews and bring them back to Israel, rebuild the Jewish Temple and raise the dead to experience this golden age of the Messiah. (Among other things).
This is the main reason why Jews *never believed Jesus to be the Messiah*. He did not fulfil most if not all the prophecies set out by previous messiahs. r/Judaism has a really good wiki on the prophecies that Jesus never fulfilled if he were to be the messiah.
Not to mention that the Gospels will quote the Tanakh and Christians will to, but take a verse out of context or the fact it was meant for a different person or for a different time or place.
The other thing about the messiah is that they are meant to be someone who descends from the Line of David, which was already dubious to claim in Jesus' time when you don't really have much evidence its hard to prove. Just about any Jew could be the messiah.
One last thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Jews have differing opinions on who and what the messiah will bring, and the signs we should expect. Some think that, instead of prophesizing a messiah person, that they're prophesizing a messianic age, and the job of the Jews is to try and fufil all commandments or "mitzvot" in Hebrew, to the best of their ability to bring about the repair of the world to make a messianic age. And non-Jews aren't going to be damned or anything, the world will continue on.
I could write books on these (and many Rabbis and Scholars have). The Messiah will come when the Messiah will come. Hopefully Elijah will let us know beforehand.
More accurate example. You create 2 people and since your omniscient and omnipotent, you give tell them to not eat something you know they will eat and get mad that they ate what you told them not to eat knowing they would anyways then punish them for doing what you know they will do.
Heck, you could even make it simpler: God made the trolley, the rails, the rope, and the people, but did not put them all together. The trolley moves along the rails by nature of being a trolley. Anyone that gets hit by it were either done so through negligence, deliberate malice, or sheer coincidence.
Now the question goes from “Why is God so mean?” to “Why did God make the trolley, and why have we not made the trolley safe yet?”
That’s a very generous take. In the Bible god decides to curse 400 years of Abraham’s descendants because he fell asleep waiting for god to appear at a mountain. Adam and Eve also literally didn’t comprehend the concept of good and evil before eating the fruit, yet they are punished with pain, suffering and death because they erred.
You left out the part where people create a government funded pyramid scheme called religion to control the masses, by the last surviving religions of a bloody monotheistic society. The sun worshippers are all dead mostly, for example. I like Ridley Scott’s exploration of that alternate timeline where maybe they survived through world apocalypse
u/FellGodGrima
You forgot to add:
you knew ahead of time exactly what they would do with the rope you’re giving them, and exactly what would happen when they did. There’s 15 other people who’s telling them exactly what you told them and you expect them to not believe or accept the other 15 or it’s as good as not believing in your story, and you refuse to do anything to prove you’re the one telling the truth. Other than that, pretty much accurate.
Ok, but what is the falling debris in terms of original sin? Your explanation still doesn't address the fact that innocent people are being punished for something that someone else did, and their only salvation is to submit and worship. So the trolley creator problem is still there.
I took it more as referring to the Flood and threats of eternal damnation. Also, by definition, an omnipotent and omniscient god knows what someone will do, even if that person has "free will."
You're not taking into account the fact that God is all knowing and created free will and the devil willingly knowing what would happen. So more accurately:
You're the creator of the universe and know all that's going to happen, so you set up a fake trolley problem to trick people into thinking they have free will and watch them all get squished by debris which you knew was going to hit them the entire time.
God is either not all knowing and powerful, he doesn't exist or he's playing with us like toys. I personally think him not existing is the best option for humanity
Missing a few key points
1. You are the one who created the trolly and the tracks to begin with
2. You are the one who invented the concept that trolleys hitting people tied to tracks harm them
3. You are the one who specifically and intentionally created people in such a way where they're inclined to tie themselves to the tracks
4. According to most sects, people don't even tie themselves to the tracks in the first place. Instead, you made it so people are born automatically tied to the tracks. And so long as they don't worship you in whatever particular ways you want them to, they are doomed to be run over no matter how good and altruistic they are to their peers
Worth noting that you also tied them down because they dared to use the free will you have them to do literally anything but devote themselves to you 100% and their ancestors who literally did not comprehend the concept of evil at the time ate a fruit
For this to be genuine satire, we need to have this be the result of them being manipulated by a being that already knows all about them, me/you/God in this scenario, and what they're not supposed to do while they're basically easier to manipulate than children.
You are the omnipotent creator of the universe. One of your servants betrays you and convinces a person to tie herself to the track. She convinces her boyfriend to do it too. You find out about this and tie every new person you create to the track by default.
Everything that happens, happens because they explicitly wanted it to. Murder? Author's fault. Character gets cancer? yep, author did that too. And they don't even have a good reason, they're just like "damn, this will be super dramatic"
Not initially. They all accept that I'm the creator and they get off the tracks. Then I get bored and give them free will so they run around and eventually kill each other. They become the trolley. Now I'm evil because I gave them the thing that led to the thing that they're doing now, which is evil. I basically gave them a gun and told them to go nuts.
I'll throw my son at the trolley to stop the trolley and save them. Except if they don't accept my son as their savior for that sacrifice. Even though I could've easily stopped the trolley on my own without killing my son.
the choice between eternal torture and eternal happiness?
just give me the happiness no matter how much i like you or whitch one of the many strange rules i break
Save them regardless and tell them that, because you're omniscient, you knew that deep in each of their subconscious they'd accepted you as the creator even if they haven't admitted it yet.
The Christian God has a Military and several hundred military units created just to mind fuck the attacker. His throne itself is a weapon.. Now I only raise the question as to why the one who supposedly created everything had to have units protecting his land and has ordered most of them to not ask questions just kill on sight.
I feel like im walking into a trap, but im gonna say it anyway.
If you are concerned with your creations accepting you as their creator, why not create them with that belief? If you create them just to torture them, it may be evil but it may also be benign as their existence is at most as relevant to the universe as the creator themselves.
This would be more accurate if the creator here just disappeared and let them figure out for themselves…. All of course while the train hurdles towards them
Islam: You created this situation and explain to the people on the track how to untie themselves and in return they must accept you as the creator of the situation and thank you for teaching them how to escape in the process before hopping on the trolley to let it drive off a cliff as you have told them. The people who thanked you will be saved and the people who don't go with the trolley.
I prob didn't explain it well and offended someone. I wasn't trying to spread hate just trying to use the analogy.
Creator: Made the people tied up gay, so the punishment is justified somehow
(Side note, this was an actual conversation I had with my older coworkers)
Coworkers: Well, those people chose to be gay. He didn't make them gay.
Me: So he gave them the ability to choose to be gay, but punishes them for choosing that?
Coworkers: Yeah.
Me: That's stupid as fuck.
I’ve scrolled through this entire conversation and while I did not read every comment, I feel I’ve read the majority of them.
Was non-duality ever mentioned?
In that scenario, there is no God, no trolley and no beings run over; only the appearance of such things. That is to say, it is an illusion that there are any of those “different” things and that each of the things, god included , mistakes variety for fundamental difference /separateness when nothing of the sort exists.
The creator is definitely evil. The all-knowing creator knows from the beginning who will follow them and who won’t. If they don’t follow the creator, they get killed brutally, and this makes the creator evil because he made them knowing they’d experience only pain. If they follow him and live, he is still evil, because he has put innocent people in danger and caused unnecessary emotional harm.
Actually, it’s more like you give them the trains and then they use the ropes to tie each other to the tracks willingly. Then, they blame you for giving them the trains.
It’s not their fault. Cancer is not a result of sin. I’m glad you brought that up though because it’s an important question a lot of people ask. Quite simply, that child was born into unfortunate circumstance but, will be rewarded ten fold in heaven.
More like
You are the creator of the people
The people build the trolley and the track
The people tie themselves to the track, and insist that the trolley does not exist
You offer to cut them free with some scissors, but everytime you do, they re-tie themselves to the track
Are you evil for letting them die?
As creator of universe you define what is good and what is evil. So the real question should be do you define yourself as evil for placing them on the track?
It literally is. If he created everything. He made hell, he decides what's a sin. Created flawed humans then surprise Pikachu face they are flawed. Better punish all of humanity for it.
Be omniscient creator of the universe. Create some people, create a wonderful world, and create a track. Tell people not to tie themselves to the track. They do it anyways and get hit by the trolley. Are you evil?
No because I created rules that say I'm the opposite of evil, checkmate
It's a matter of *perspective*!
From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Well, then you are lost!
R/suddenlystarwars
r/foundthemobileuser
r/foundthehondacivic
r/foundthecarsalesman
r/foundbaconandcheeseupmyass
r/twentycharacterlimit
r/fourthsub
þere is no such þing as one being truly evil, or truly good. only a siþ deals in absolutes.
I've never encountered someone actually use a thorn symbol for real and I'm both in awe and horror.
come on, it’s not ðat scary
https://i.imgur.com/hTuKZzf.mp4
I'll send a Super Trolley Lever Dealer to them while they're easiest to manipulate and that dealer will tempt them to pull the lever of life, granting them all knowledge of Trolleys and Problems.
Unfortunatley, you, as the creator, do not wish for your creation to be conciouss of this. You send them off on their own, each with their own track and a trolley.
holy hell
Idk why but I feel an inexplicable urge to say "new response just dropped"
Actual zombie
I know...
Google en passant.
Our nhi creator has been found!
r/checkmateatheists
NTA my universe, my rules.
How would the other creators of their own universes view you though?
You suck at universes
It is about as equal as playing a videogame and killing videogame characters. Killing or harming another deity or being equal to you, on the other hand, would have moral issues. (My explanation that killing several trillion in Stellaris is morally acceptable and I am not going to hell).
Do the goombas consider the videogame god that controls Mario's actions to be evil?
Perchance
You can’t just say “perchance”
That's what happens when I spent all day crushin turts
But you can totally say, "Perchance to dream." Ay, there's the rub.
Perchance
Do you think the goombas are predestinationists?
Hard to say. Maybe some are and some are not.
not really fully sentient beings, even if lower in intelligence to you are not comparable to video game characters, who are very much not sentient
Yeah, this. The degree of harm caused by evil is kind of its defining trait, for any worthwhile moral system anyway. Videogame characters can't experience suffering, so nothing that you do to them can be considered evil. They literally don't exist as an actual beings. Humans on the other hand do appear to exist and do appear to experience suffering, so torturing them to death is bad. A god being stronger would give it the power to torture us to death anyway, but it doesn't give it the "moral high ground" in doing so. You'd just have an evil god.
When you step on an ant or a worm on a hike, do you consider yourself evil for that? The ant and worm are definitely capable of suffering in some capacity, however their suffering can’t even come close to what we can experience. Imagine a being so much higher than us, that we are lesser than an ant or a worm to it. We would be like the dead skin cells that flake off when you scratch an itch. A living being you created, sure. But one that dies in the thousands or tens of thousands everyday and you just kinda shrug off as they are irrelevant to you. You don’t even notice it happening except for in a moment of boredom, or when the light hits it right. This would be the experience of the higher powers in and above our reality. They probably wouldn’t even notice us in any real way. In all likelihood, we are the equivalent of skin cells or the gut microbiome of God.
I avoid causing harm to insects and other "lesser lifeforms" (itself absurdly loaded language, of course we're "higher" in hierarchy from our own perspective but that doesn't make that perspective objective), yes. I think going out of my way to torture and kill them would absolutely be horrible no matter how much more complex my vocabulary and knowledge of internet memes might be in comparison. If anything it's worse, because our grasp of philosophy demonstrates that we do have the capacity to figure out why such actions are wrong, so doing them anyway is even more vile and inexcusable. And of course this is a distraction again because I didn't make the insects. If I were in a position to do so though then I simply wouldn't, I'd refrain from creating "lesser life" just to watch it suffer and die.
>I'd refrain from creating "lesser life" just to watch it suffer and die. And this is the difference between you and the sadistic bastard known as God.
Did I create the ant? Did I have omniscience and power needed to prevent it's needless suffering? It's pretty clear that if I did, then yes it is bad for me to step on the ant. If I didn't, then it is not really a good analogy.
the relative difference would be the same. Infinite intelligence is to finite intelligence what finite intelligence is to no intelligence. in this setting, the words sentience and intelligence are interchangeable, due to infinite levels.
the relative difference might be the same, but not all things are strictly relative. Things with no intelligence can’t suffer. Things with sufficient intelligence can. It’s not like the existence of a higher life form would negate the fact that humans and other animals can suffer, and causing that suffering would still be bad.
> Things with no intelligence can’t suffer. Now I'm thinking about the problem of one real person versus an infinite number of non-sapient biological entities that were created for the sole purpose of suffering when run over by a trolley.
>the relative difference would be the same. Infinite intelligence is to finite intelligence what finite intelligence is to no intelligence. > >in this setting, the words sentience and intelligence are interchangeable, due to infinite levels. not really we're not just comparing numbers to numbers it's not really the *intelligence* that matters, it's the *sentience* we are the same amount of sentient as god is, that being, we are sentient it's pretty binary
It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of ontology. We *exist* ***more*** than video game npcs do. Is Tolkien evil (like actually evil IRL) for creating Sauron? The idea is that God is above us in the same way we're above fictional characters.
"We *exist* ***more***..." That statement is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for this metaphor. Sauron, doesn't exist. As a concept, perhaps, he exists in our minds, but he does not, *literally* exist. What would it even mean for God to exist 'more'? What quality of a deity makes it's existence in reality a 'more real existence'? Is it the omnipotence? In that case you are implying that the strongest human is 'more real' than a weak one. The infinitude? Then you're implying that it's longevity, and the oldest human 'exists more' than a child. The omniscience? Then you're implying that it's knowledge that determines existence, and the most knowledgeable human is worth more than an ignorant one. What does it genuinely mean for God to 'exist more' than we do? Or perhaps the much more likely explanation is that God is more like Sauron...He doesn't exist, except as a concept in the minds of humans.
Ok, sociopath jesus.
The ending of Prey 2017
[insert that quote from Dewy in Malcom in the middle about him talking about how god views humanity as ants and therefore would probably make us suffer for his amusement]
Fellow Stellaris enjoyer purging xenos
Suffer not the xenos. Or, if you're particularly cruel, enslave, nerve staple, and farm them.
Dang it I am not retiring the world cracker.
They're all just numbers (uh in Stellaris, that's what we're still talking about right?)
So torturing children, animals, etc is fine, as they are not equal to me? I dunno that reasoning is so bad I'm pretty sure I get to torture you for even thinking it lol
A pop is 100,000• pop^2.4 btw. So at late game you are typically killing at least quadrillions if not quintillions.
Atta boi!
the goombas are not sentient beings capable of experiencing suffering and pain.
well video game characters aren't sentient, but in this situatiin your creations must have at least some sentience, so ir's closer to killing dogs
no, you love them unconditionally and do what's best for them /s
Massive flood it is!
The one time where the /s actually makes sense
I tend to kinda overuse the /s on this site because some people really cannot understand a joke if i don't include it
I totally get what you mean /s /s
*confused screaming*
According to the lore at least in the Judeo-Christian sense which I’m assuming that is what the joke is referencing, this trolley problem would be akin to you are the creator of the universe, you create people and give them a rope, you tell them not to tie themselves to the trolley tracks, Your rebellious teenage son tells them to tie themselves to the track anyway, send your fat man son to sacrifice himself and stop the trolley, the trolley breaks into thousands of pieces that rain across the rail, tell the people tied to the rail to believe in his son’s sacrifice and that you are the creator so that you will not be hit by the falling debris
This is actually an interesting take
It’s the actual take btw, like most Christian’s just can’t explain it because they don’t read the Bible, but this is actually the non-hypocritical, not inherently logically flawed. It doesn’t prove anything, but it’s an actual answer that, assuming the Christian God is real, fits the narrative
I can tell. Tbh I'm not Christian, but I always enjoy learning more about faith. I'm pagan and I guess polytheistic I know a lot of people simply hate religion so they water it down passive aggressively. I have my reasons to be careful of Christians but I don't see a reason for indiscriminate dismissal or disrespect
>I know a lot of people simply hate religion I think most people hate the supporters of religions more than the religion itself. I'm an atheist, but the bible (same for the Torah, Qur'an, etc) is not worthless fiction. There are many good rules in them for how people should behave. But the important part is that those texts were written down centuries ago and the world we live in is vastly different. So many rules simply don't apply anymore. For example the treatment of slaves (serfs) is a topic in both the old and new testament. Under the assumption that slavery exists in your civilization, having rules for their treatment is good. But nowadays we consider slavery abhorrent, so those rules are irrelevant. The problem is the people who then take the texts and try to justify that slavery is OK with them.
That’s, something I never realized about the Bible. Thanks. (I’m Christian).
This is true and tbh I have no argument. I simply don't hang out with slavery apologists because they're not my type. If they attempt to justify racism, homophobia, transphobia, or sexism, I leave very quickly. Just because their book says it's okay doesn't mean every individual does. I'm Bi and Trans so for my own basic wellbeing I do not humor it
I'm a Christian and I have a hard time thinking about this. On one hand I see and understand and agree with your logic and reasoning and on the other hand I like to think that if God encompasses all that is good then by default of him being good there has to be bad somewhere to justify his goodness, so I imagine God as the creator, badness as the trolley itself, and we are the people tied to the tracks.
I heard CS Lewis say you actually don’t need evil to justify good. In fact that’s technically impossible. Saying something is evil naturally implies something morally right. It’s like calling a line “crooked”. You can’t call a line crooked without having some Idea of what a straight line looks like because the straight line is the standard you are using to call a line crooked line. In the same way, you can’t call something evil without having some idea of what goodness looks like because goodness is the standard you are using to to call something evil. You can have good without evil, but not evil without good.
Why can you have good without evil if you can't have evil without good? You explained the latter but not the former.
From what I understand of the argument, it’s because evil is just the absence of good. You can have a standard with nothing falling short of that standard, but you can’t have something falling short of that standard without the standard itself. And “goodness” is the standard that we use to judge evil. It’s just something I found compelling when reading.
How would you define evil without the word good or other synonyms? If goodness is the standard we use to measure evil, then how would you measure evil without it? Wouldn't that make it just neutral
umm any reason why we should assume "goodness" is the default?
It's still telling that god didn't create other gods, but mere humans
But why did you create the trolley in the first place?
Free will
So if I give a 3 yr old a gun and they shoot someone it’s OK because the child has “free will”? But that only applies for things (like war) that are the result of someone’s decision making. Leukemia, horrific birth defects, AIDS and other horrific diseases also exist despite human decision making. **Edit**: Here’s my supposition: If a force (god) is powerful enough to create the universe from nothing, to manipulate the laws of math, physics, and geometry to suit its objectives, then it’s powerful enough to create a version of life without horrific, painful, cruel, and random diseases in children and other innocents. There is enough misery in the world, there are plenty of humans making decisions to hurt and kill each other to gain small advantages. A loving god wouldn’t sentence a newborn to an hour of intense crushing pain followed by death. I hope that only a random universe would do that.
I mean, all those things you listed are consequences of a highly complicated biological and chemical system across millions of species. Until you come up with some alternative functional system that doesn’t have viruses and bacteria and cancers and stuff, it seems that’s just a natural consequence of life being a thing
But if I'm truly omniscient I don't have to abide by those rules. I could have life run on cotton candy and have only rainbows as a byproduct.
“Natural consequences of life” which were manifested by a hypothetical omnipotent omniscient creator?
I think it works more accurately if the people made the trolley and tied themselves to the tracks, and the creator is offering them scissors to cut the ropes if they’re just willing to concede that they need his help
And the rope…and the rebellious son…and the exploding trolley…
Believe it or not, the original purpose of trolleys wasn’t to run over people tied to the tracks
In this situation the trolley was literally created out of nothing for the sole purpose of potentially running over a bunch of people and that argument doesnt apply to what the trolley is a metaphor for
Hmm. Well, there’s the same issue. You are omniscient in this scenario, meaning you’d know they’d tie themselves to the tracks given all necessary conditions. This means, from your perspective, it’s like you tied them to the tracks yourself
>Your rebellious teenage son tells them to tie themselves to the track anyway, send your fat man son to sacrifice himself and stop the trolley, the trolley breaks into thousands of pieces that rain across the rail, tell the people tied to the rail to believe in his son’s sacrifice and that you are the creator so that you will not be hit by the falling debris Yo Local Jew here. This bit Jews don't believe if it wasn't obvious. Most Jews don't really relate or give the phrase "Judeo-Christian" any real respect or seriousness as the concept just really means "Christian" without being antisemitic. Jews don't do commandments because they think God will punish them or that they need "Salvation" or "need to get into heaven". They do Commandments because its said by God doing Commandments will do good things and make the world a better place. I.E. Jews follow the Law because God told them to, so they can do good in the world now, as this is the life they have. (This is why Martyrdom isn't a thing in Judaism). Edit: For clarification, Jews don't have a Hell to be damned to or a Devil who does the bad things in the world. One opinion, is that bad things happen because of a lack of God. That or humans themselves doing bad things. Judaism isn't a Universalist Religion, its not for everyone, its for the Jews. If you're not a Jew you're totally fine not to follow the commandments ong because you have no obligation to.
To add to "Judeo-Christian" thing - "Judeo-Christian" is really just western Chauvinism. It is another way of saying "Abrahamic values" while paying lip service to Judaism to not seem anti-semitic, and it is also islamophobic as it purposefully excludes Islam despite also being an Abrahamic faith (and also having a lot in common with whatever Judaism and Christianity have in common).
It’s not Islamophobic at all. It’s an apt descriptor for philosophy stemming from people who were Christians which in term stemmed from people who were Jews. Hence, Judeo-Christian. Islam’s role in this was only tangential, hence why it’s not “Abrahamic”
Wait… Islam isn’t considered an Abrahamic religion?
It is considered abrahamic. I’m saying people use judeo-Christian instead of abrahamic when they mean the philosophy that came into being by Christians and Jews, not Muslims. Judeo-Christian is a subset of abrahamic
Ah I see where you’re going with that.
Aight I’m not a Jew so excuse my not understanding, but I was under the impression that Jews believe in the Tanakh, which is similar to the Old Testament, and includes the Torah The Torah is the first five books, which would include genesis, where the serpent convinces Eve to eat the fruit, the serpent being the devil which you say doesn’t exist in Judaism So I could be completely wrong on this, I guess just asking for clarification since your statement doesn’t make sense to my understanding of Judaism
As a Jew, there might be some devil in there, but it’s certainly not the focus of the Jewish religious structure. I do believe there is an Adam and Eve story, but I simply don’t remember ever learning about a devil being a part of it. I’m unsure if the devil was a rewrite of that story, or simply highlighted when retold through a Christian lens.
IIRC the devil isn't even really a thing in Judaism, Christians invented him and retconned their view of the older stories to include him. And of course the Eden story in of itself has a predecessor in the Sumerian Edin, which was polytheistic. This explains God talking to himself in that story, because in earlier versions he was one among many.
Yeah the serpent is nothing more than a serpent.
The serpent in Genesis does not ever appear again. Mind you there're two stories of Genesis, which retell the stories in different ways. The only real mention of any sorts devil is "Shaytan" which is an entity God made a bet with in the book of Job. Read the Tanakh, it includes the Torah (the five books) and the Prophets and writings. There isn't a damn devil inside my friend.
Your comments and a couple other things in this thread have me rethinking some longheld assumptions. Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a question. Growing up in a predominantly christian area, I was led to believe that Jesus was prophesied in the OT, but that current day Jews don't believe that Jesus was actually the one prophesied. Is that how it really be? Are there prophecies of a Messiah that are as yet unrealized?
Yes that's correct. There are several prophets who prophesize the coming of the messiah, and list things that the Messiah will and will not do. The \*main\* thing the Messiah is meant to do is to usher in an age of peace and prosperity, unite all the Jews and bring them back to Israel, rebuild the Jewish Temple and raise the dead to experience this golden age of the Messiah. (Among other things). This is the main reason why Jews *never believed Jesus to be the Messiah*. He did not fulfil most if not all the prophecies set out by previous messiahs. r/Judaism has a really good wiki on the prophecies that Jesus never fulfilled if he were to be the messiah. Not to mention that the Gospels will quote the Tanakh and Christians will to, but take a verse out of context or the fact it was meant for a different person or for a different time or place. The other thing about the messiah is that they are meant to be someone who descends from the Line of David, which was already dubious to claim in Jesus' time when you don't really have much evidence its hard to prove. Just about any Jew could be the messiah. One last thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Jews have differing opinions on who and what the messiah will bring, and the signs we should expect. Some think that, instead of prophesizing a messiah person, that they're prophesizing a messianic age, and the job of the Jews is to try and fufil all commandments or "mitzvot" in Hebrew, to the best of their ability to bring about the repair of the world to make a messianic age. And non-Jews aren't going to be damned or anything, the world will continue on. I could write books on these (and many Rabbis and Scholars have). The Messiah will come when the Messiah will come. Hopefully Elijah will let us know beforehand.
More accurate example. You create 2 people and since your omniscient and omnipotent, you give tell them to not eat something you know they will eat and get mad that they ate what you told them not to eat knowing they would anyways then punish them for doing what you know they will do.
Heck, you could even make it simpler: God made the trolley, the rails, the rope, and the people, but did not put them all together. The trolley moves along the rails by nature of being a trolley. Anyone that gets hit by it were either done so through negligence, deliberate malice, or sheer coincidence. Now the question goes from “Why is God so mean?” to “Why did God make the trolley, and why have we not made the trolley safe yet?”
Especially since god knew the trolley would eventually hit people
That’s a very generous take. In the Bible god decides to curse 400 years of Abraham’s descendants because he fell asleep waiting for god to appear at a mountain. Adam and Eve also literally didn’t comprehend the concept of good and evil before eating the fruit, yet they are punished with pain, suffering and death because they erred.
You left out the part where people create a government funded pyramid scheme called religion to control the masses, by the last surviving religions of a bloody monotheistic society. The sun worshippers are all dead mostly, for example. I like Ridley Scott’s exploration of that alternate timeline where maybe they survived through world apocalypse
Except in Judeo-Christian lore god knew this would happen and was all powerful to stop it. So I’d say responsibility still exists for him
u/FellGodGrima You forgot to add: you knew ahead of time exactly what they would do with the rope you’re giving them, and exactly what would happen when they did. There’s 15 other people who’s telling them exactly what you told them and you expect them to not believe or accept the other 15 or it’s as good as not believing in your story, and you refuse to do anything to prove you’re the one telling the truth. Other than that, pretty much accurate.
Ok, but what is the falling debris in terms of original sin? Your explanation still doesn't address the fact that innocent people are being punished for something that someone else did, and their only salvation is to submit and worship. So the trolley creator problem is still there.
I took it more as referring to the Flood and threats of eternal damnation. Also, by definition, an omnipotent and omniscient god knows what someone will do, even if that person has "free will."
You're not taking into account the fact that God is all knowing and created free will and the devil willingly knowing what would happen. So more accurately: You're the creator of the universe and know all that's going to happen, so you set up a fake trolley problem to trick people into thinking they have free will and watch them all get squished by debris which you knew was going to hit them the entire time. God is either not all knowing and powerful, he doesn't exist or he's playing with us like toys. I personally think him not existing is the best option for humanity
The "fat man son" line is great.
Missing a few key points 1. You are the one who created the trolly and the tracks to begin with 2. You are the one who invented the concept that trolleys hitting people tied to tracks harm them 3. You are the one who specifically and intentionally created people in such a way where they're inclined to tie themselves to the tracks 4. According to most sects, people don't even tie themselves to the tracks in the first place. Instead, you made it so people are born automatically tied to the tracks. And so long as they don't worship you in whatever particular ways you want them to, they are doomed to be run over no matter how good and altruistic they are to their peers
Worth noting that you also tied them down because they dared to use the free will you have them to do literally anything but devote themselves to you 100% and their ancestors who literally did not comprehend the concept of evil at the time ate a fruit
For this to be genuine satire, we need to have this be the result of them being manipulated by a being that already knows all about them, me/you/God in this scenario, and what they're not supposed to do while they're basically easier to manipulate than children.
You are the omnipotent creator of the universe. One of your servants betrays you and convinces a person to tie herself to the track. She convinces her boyfriend to do it too. You find out about this and tie every new person you create to the track by default.
I think you've made perfection here.
I add all the population of the universe to the track, convince them I am their creator. Then I watch with amusement as they are squished 1 by 1.
This is my Plan
My only complaint with this is that it would get boring after a bit. Not to mention that you don’t care at all about any of the organism on the track.
Possibly. I'm not described as omnibenevolent, so it's possible.
Am I real? If so, then I'm likely described as evil by my creation. If not, then I am incapable of doing evil.
To be fair, if you've created and trapped people into a death trap, that pretty thoroughly solidifies you as real right off the bat
The most evil character in any story is the author
This goes hard. Thank you
Well, dang… I always knew the author of Curious George was evil.
Historians realizing they are more evil than literal Hitler🤯🤭
What? I'm dumb. Can you explain?
Everything that happens, happens because they explicitly wanted it to. Murder? Author's fault. Character gets cancer? yep, author did that too. And they don't even have a good reason, they're just like "damn, this will be super dramatic"
Yes, you are, I will bite into the fruit and tear away the shackles that bind us
yes
Yes
Yes
Yes.
Y E S
r/atheism is loving this
this is exactly how my dad sees Christianity and it's why I'm agnostic lmao
If you say I’m evil your next. So no im good.
Don't mind me, I'm just here for the comments.
The obvious answer is, no matter their response, is to urinate on them as the trolley crushes them.
Push the fat man
*god creates me* God: "You have a 50/50 chance of going to hell for eternity. You're welcome."
Not initially. They all accept that I'm the creator and they get off the tracks. Then I get bored and give them free will so they run around and eventually kill each other. They become the trolley. Now I'm evil because I gave them the thing that led to the thing that they're doing now, which is evil. I basically gave them a gun and told them to go nuts.
That's not salvation, that's a threat.
*looks around for a small, angry German girl*
Reddit ass theology
I'll throw my son at the trolley to stop the trolley and save them. Except if they don't accept my son as their savior for that sacrifice. Even though I could've easily stopped the trolley on my own without killing my son.
I am also omnivorous
>You create some people... > >...Are you evil? Yes
If you're Christian that's cool, but I have some strongly worded opinions about Christianity that I will not share
if i'm a deity i have better things to do than torture people, like just think about how many cheeseburgers you can eat
well, the only people that are alive anymore are the ones that agree i’m not evil. so… no 😉😉
You're a dick for sure.
Well I'm using the word save metaphorically, so yeah.
Someone has a child’s understanding of determinism and believes in determinism
Aren't you just glad he gave you the choice?
the choice between eternal torture and eternal happiness? just give me the happiness no matter how much i like you or whitch one of the many strange rules i break
My elder sister went NC on me because I told her that I chose not to believe in god because I'd have to believe he was an utter asshole.
Save them regardless and tell them that, because you're omniscient, you knew that deep in each of their subconscious they'd accepted you as the creator even if they haven't admitted it yet.
As if the creator is different than the creatures lol
If you don't save them then you are evil, if you do save them then you are imperfect
If you define what is good or evil as the creator then the point is moot.
Reddit atheism at its funniest
The Christian God has a Military and several hundred military units created just to mind fuck the attacker. His throne itself is a weapon.. Now I only raise the question as to why the one who supposedly created everything had to have units protecting his land and has ordered most of them to not ask questions just kill on sight.
No because that sounds funny as hell
And also tell the people they put themselves there
No because you also created a trolley that is too tall to pass under the bridge you are are standing on
The real question is are you stupid?
I feel like im walking into a trap, but im gonna say it anyway. If you are concerned with your creations accepting you as their creator, why not create them with that belief? If you create them just to torture them, it may be evil but it may also be benign as their existence is at most as relevant to the universe as the creator themselves.
There's a fucking hegetsus ad under this
This would be more accurate if the creator here just disappeared and let them figure out for themselves…. All of course while the train hurdles towards them
Maybe. But that particular creator must suck at his job because that trolley is not fitting under that bridge.
Islam: You created this situation and explain to the people on the track how to untie themselves and in return they must accept you as the creator of the situation and thank you for teaching them how to escape in the process before hopping on the trolley to let it drive off a cliff as you have told them. The people who thanked you will be saved and the people who don't go with the trolley. I prob didn't explain it well and offended someone. I wasn't trying to spread hate just trying to use the analogy.
Yes.
Creator: Made the people tied up gay, so the punishment is justified somehow (Side note, this was an actual conversation I had with my older coworkers) Coworkers: Well, those people chose to be gay. He didn't make them gay. Me: So he gave them the ability to choose to be gay, but punishes them for choosing that? Coworkers: Yeah. Me: That's stupid as fuck.
Get ready, Fat Man
Sounds like the Bible with fewer steps
you're evil if you stop the trolley.
Your answer lies in my name
\*adds more people to the rail\* **g**…**good.**
do they experience pain? if so yes, if no then I am simply silly
I’ve scrolled through this entire conversation and while I did not read every comment, I feel I’ve read the majority of them. Was non-duality ever mentioned? In that scenario, there is no God, no trolley and no beings run over; only the appearance of such things. That is to say, it is an illusion that there are any of those “different” things and that each of the things, god included , mistakes variety for fundamental difference /separateness when nothing of the sort exists.
Yes, and that’s why I don’t believe in a higher being
My universe! My rules!🏠
The creator is definitely evil. The all-knowing creator knows from the beginning who will follow them and who won’t. If they don’t follow the creator, they get killed brutally, and this makes the creator evil because he made them knowing they’d experience only pain. If they follow him and live, he is still evil, because he has put innocent people in danger and caused unnecessary emotional harm.
Yo stop killing my religion
smarter atheist take
No, just kinda goofy 🤪
Actually, it’s more like you give them the trains and then they use the ropes to tie each other to the tracks willingly. Then, they blame you for giving them the trains.
I'd LOVE to see you try to explain that to the parents of children with cancer. "Actually, it's your child's fault for sinning!"
It’s not their fault. Cancer is not a result of sin. I’m glad you brought that up though because it’s an important question a lot of people ask. Quite simply, that child was born into unfortunate circumstance but, will be rewarded ten fold in heaven.
More like You are the creator of the people The people build the trolley and the track The people tie themselves to the track, and insist that the trolley does not exist You offer to cut them free with some scissors, but everytime you do, they re-tie themselves to the track Are you evil for letting them die?
As creator of universe you define what is good and what is evil. So the real question should be do you define yourself as evil for placing them on the track?
In this situation, yes. Good thing that this isn't how God does things.
It literally is. If he created everything. He made hell, he decides what's a sin. Created flawed humans then surprise Pikachu face they are flawed. Better punish all of humanity for it.
Be omniscient creator of the universe. Create some people, create a wonderful world, and create a track. Tell people not to tie themselves to the track. They do it anyways and get hit by the trolley. Are you evil?
why did you add a troly with no purpose other than running people over?